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| 00:25.39 | BulletCatcher | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines shows that the world doesn't need another game engine. |
| 00:25.40 | BulletCatcher | Which one of those would be the best basis for a BZFlag-like game? |
| 00:26.20 | allejo | https://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 00:26.53 | BulletCatcher | exactly |
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| 01:08.21 | blast007 | the fun part of that is you don't know for sure until you try rewriting it in one of them |
| 01:10.01 | blast007 | But on the other hand, you don't need to go full engine on this. There's plenty of libraries that we could replace large parts of our own code with. |
| 01:11.25 | Constitution | ogre is pretty popular, and is MIT license (so compatible with just about anything else) |
| 01:13.56 | Constitution | since there are plenty of FOSS solutions, it seems like we might as well go with one of those and avoid the wrath of the zealots (and also enjoy the ability to port it to a variety of niche systems, if someone wants to do the work) |
| 01:14.16 | blast007 | also, with an engine (as well as other libraries), you'll sometimes be stuck reworking your game to support a new incompatible release of the engine. |
| 01:15.42 | Constitution | yes, and tracking down bugs they introduced between versions, like the fun we've had with SDL 2 lately |
| 01:18.55 | blast007 | we've looked at OGRE before |
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| 01:22.15 | alpha1-2 | IMHO, there would be good to try some few engines to see how BZ could be, but in paralel (2 paralel projects) with current code, which is not bad either for me |
| 01:23.05 | alpha1-2 | to give a (or another) try to see if it would be better there or here |
| 01:23.07 | blast007 | And do we need an engine that abstracts graphics calls between Direct3D and OpenGL? Because that's what OGRE does. |
| 01:24.01 | alpha1-2 | people could talk a lot about engines but until they try them for sure, all would be just words in the air (IMHO) |
| 01:25.29 | alpha1-2 | or (thinking even more) maybe in the future *mixing* both of them in one main project (taking the best of each) |
| 01:28.28 | Constitution | the graphics code should be abstracted away anyway, unlike the OpenGL calls scattered all over like we have now |
| 01:30.09 | Constitution | I'm not sure how we would do the 2D stuff, like radar, but there are at least UI libraries that work well with ogre (like CEGUI) that we could use for much of it |
| 01:30.47 | blast007 | yeah, both of which have a crazy amount of dependencies |
| 01:31.34 | blast007 | it'll take longer to build our GUI engine and dependencies than it does to build our current game ;) |
| 01:32.22 | Constitution | but shorter than it takes to build BZION *cough* *duck* |
| 01:32.44 | blast007 | you mean migrate BZION, not build |
| 01:32.53 | blast007 | which is completely different |
| 01:33.03 | alpha1-2 | maybe Blender engine could be an option too, I saw 1 game made (descent; the other engines I was not able to see a real game working IIRC, relatively complex to install and/or you needed a very good 3D card necessarely) and there is another one started |
| 01:33.32 | blast007 | and CEGUI is using Mecurial |
| 01:35.31 | alpha1-2 | apparently who tried OGRE was adapting BZ code to it instead of coding from scratch, which would be better? |
| 01:35.48 | alpha1-2 | and was too alone? |
| 01:35.57 | Constitution | there are pre-built packages of CEGUI for debian/ubuntu and fedora, at least |
| 01:36.32 | Constitution | as well as for windows and possibly mac |
| 01:38.33 | Constitution | really I wouldn't object to rolling our own either, though... I personally might even prefer it... we would just want to make sure we don't let the graphics code creep into other modules like we have now |
| 01:38.35 | blast007 | http://static.cegui.org.uk/docs/0.8.4/dependencies.html sounds like most of the dependencies are optional, though, which I'm not sure is necessarily better. |
| 01:39.07 | blast007 | Constitution: well, it'd be hard to make it any worse than our current codebase. :) |
| 01:41.00 | alpha1-2 | also 3D engines are not still growing, not too complete/mature? not my subject |
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| 01:43.11 | alpha1-2 | if there is not one still that leads in somewhat stronger way, or 2/3 |
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| 01:47.17 | alpha1-2 | blast007: "There's plenty of libraries that we could replace large parts of our own code with", yes, I agree, it's an option too |
| 01:47.35 | blast007 | it would be nice to be able to use the same graphics code for a map editor too, or have a built-in map editor |
| 01:48.24 | alpha1-2 | there is where Blender can be a good choice. It's supposedly the best editor option nowadays (tho hard to learn) |
| 01:48.53 | blast007 | we could replace physics with Bullet, networking with RakNet, standardize on a single set of platform abstraction code like SDL or GLFW, etc |
| 01:49.21 | blast007 | I don't know if GLFW supports force feedback on joysticks though |
| 01:49.40 | alpha1-2 | OGRE seemed me some out-of-date, but not sure, while Blender Engine, is very active (I don't know very much tho) |
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| 01:57.29 | alpha1-2 | this is the one game made I saw with Blender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7RRaEvWqJc - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_Frankie |
| 01:58.37 | Constitution | hopefully we wouldn't need much custom platform code outside of what the 3D engine gives us... when I played around with ogre a little bit, it seemed like it wanted to do all the window management, etc. |
| 01:58.44 | alpha1-2 | excuse the some-ugly dove intro :P |
| 02:00.28 | Constitution | I don't see why we would need SDL at all |
| 02:06.43 | blast007 | Constitution: if we don't use a game engine |
| 02:07.10 | blast007 | I don't really have any interest in using OGRE |
| 02:07.32 | Constitution | ah |
| 02:07.55 | Constitution | the reason for not using SDL on Windows was joystick/force feedback support, right? |
| 02:08.33 | blast007 | yes, and I also think it changed the mouse cursor to a black cursor with a white border, which was kinda weird ;) |
| 02:08.59 | blast007 | SDL at the time, at least, kind of brought everything down the last common set of features |
| 02:09.11 | blast007 | I think it also didn't support as many joystick buttons |
| 02:09.18 | blast007 | maybe the same for mice |
| 02:09.55 | alpha1-2 | and this is the latest game project, AFAIK (they make movies also): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kKnsy41Kk - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintel_The_Game |
| 02:10.41 | Constitution | I believe most of those issues have been overcome now |
| 02:17.53 | alpha1-2 | any opinion about Blender Engine, maybe? |
| 02:20.39 | alpha1-2 | (going to eat) |
| 02:21.45 | blast007 | Huh, maybe we were ahead of our time. Just bought a game where you register on a forum to buy the game, and then use the same credentials to play. |
| 02:23.13 | allejo | bz's an inspiration to all! |
| 02:23.50 | Constitution | alpha1-2: that game looks like a very strange mod of assassin's creed :P |
| 02:24.20 | blast007 | oh, that's a game now? |
| 02:24.40 | blast007 | I recall when it was just a short |
| 02:25.02 | Constitution | I meant the first one he posted |
| 02:25.44 | blast007 | Yo Frankie? |
| 02:42.02 | blast007 | this game is a bit larger than BZFlag too. |
| 02:42.29 | blast007 | A 60MB download. For the launcher. ;) |
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| 02:54.07 | alpha1-2 | yofrankie has a funny design (and some evil :P) |
| 02:54.59 | alpha1-2 | "very strange mod of assassin's creed :P" :) |
| 02:57.10 | alpha1-2 | Constitution: not saying OGRE is not a good option, just seemed somewhat out-of-date. But, I repeat, it would be good maybe to try 2 or 3 engines and see (in example Blender, OGRE and other). Always in paralel with current code, I meant, not leaving it. |
| 02:57.24 | Constitution | squirrel parkour |
| 03:03.08 | alpha1-2 | sorry, I was confused with Torque3D, not OGRE, which was also tested right? |
| 03:08.07 | blast007 | I don't know if OGRE has been looked on in quite a while |
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| 03:11.04 | alpha1-2 | and, my suggestion to organize new *paralel* projects (if really necessary) is, first, making a list of the nowadays *problems* of BZ code, and then, where a 3D engine could help (later, it could be a list of future *improvements*). If you see that there would be more cons than pros (in example, to start from scratch), then, the solution would be either improving the current code or replacing certain modules with external libraries. |
| 03:11.06 | alpha1-2 | Again, in playability, I, as a active player (tho I know about programming), don't see many problems, it's a mature software. |
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| 03:21.36 | alpha1-2 | yes, it has several/lots of landscapes/textures/3d models/sounds/, etc. And it's a hard game too :P |
| 03:22.19 | alpha1-2 | wants to play it again now |
| 03:23.13 | alpha1-2 | but, blast007, I asked if Torque3D was tried before with BZ or I remember wrongly? |
| 03:25.58 | blast007 | there were still some usability issues with Torque3D at the time. It had just gone open-source. So I don't think anyone really "tried it" all that much. JeffM might have experimented with it, possibly even before it went open-source. |
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| 03:28.14 | alpha1-2 | I remeber one person that was alone coding a new BZ with some 3D engine |
| 03:28.49 | alpha1-2 | and later left it |
| 03:30.11 | blast007 | tupone had worked on a CrystalSpace version |
| 03:30.42 | blast007 | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/tree/2.0_crystal_space |
| 03:34.20 | alpha1-2 | ah CrystalSpace is before to/the same as Blender Engine |
| 03:34.26 | blast007 | JeffM has done various games or samples over the years |
| 03:37.20 | alpha1-2 | and JeffM must have tested Torque, then |
| 03:43.38 | alpha1-2 | see this, important: "There are two versions of the game on the DVD, one with the Blender Game Engine, and a version with Crystal Space. The Blender Game Engine version of the game is titled "A Furry Vendetta",[7] while the Crystal Space version is titled "Furry Funny Frankie". Though some of the assets for making the levels and the characters are shared, the gameplay differs between versions." |
| 03:47.24 | alpha1-2 | well, the complete Technology part |
| 03:54.01 | blast007 | Torque3D makes no mention of Mac OS X support, only Windows and Linux |
| 03:54.56 | alpha1-2 | (I recommend Flashgot Firefox addon + UGet download manager) |
| 03:56.12 | blast007 | Personally, I don't like the idea of using a complete game engine. I'd rather be able to pick and choose the best pieces (libraries) to use instead of being limited to whatever an engine does/supports. |
| 03:56.30 | alpha1-2 | in wikipedia it says it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_%28game_engine%29 |
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| 03:57.30 | alpha1-2 | but this engine was what I told was somewhat out-of-date, tho can be useful |
| 03:59.14 | alpha1-2 | it *seems* they released it under FLOSS license, after they were not able to have sucess commercially, to try to make it a leader |
| 04:01.09 | BulletCatcher | The idea is to find an engine (or set of libraries) that is compatible enough with the way BZFlag works that we feel we are better off (in terms of development effort, at least) using it than our legacy code. |
| 04:01.32 | alpha1-2 | blast007: what about my suggestion to make a first list of BZ nowadays (serious) problems? To have it more clear (I don't know really what they are) |
| 04:02.01 | blast007 | alpha1-2: no, Torque supported OS X, Torque 3D doesn't (yet) |
| 04:02.13 | BulletCatcher | I suppose that if there were something that clearly did this we would already be making plans to start using it. |
| 04:02.14 | blast007 | look down lower on the page for the box talking about Torque 3D |
| 04:02.38 | alpha1-2 | right |
| 04:03.41 | alpha1-2 | I return more, then, over Blender one, seems a good one |
| 04:03.53 | alpha1-2 | also related with editor |
| 04:04.43 | alpha1-2 | and part of work *maybe* already done (by tupone) (maybe out-of-date) |
| 04:06.02 | blast007 | The CrystalSpace version was never finished. I seem to recall he found it more difficult than initially expected. |
| 04:06.58 | alpha1-2 | Constitution: was tupone who you mentioned that had adapted BZ code to it instead of doing it from scratch? |
| 04:07.14 | alpha1-2 | (to the engine) |
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| 04:08.50 | blast007 | there was a discussion about OGRE and engines here: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/20071114.html.gz |
| 04:09.29 | blast007 | "so if we swaped to a more realistic physcics system, the entire game would change" |
| 04:12.59 | alpha1-2 | IMHO about 3D desings, I see CS/Blender one as a very good option: it has a not heavy real game made, the best editor related, active developing and maybe some useful code made already. I repeat that there should be maybe not 1 but 2 or 3 selected/pre-selected engines to test with (or to get libraries from) |
| 04:16.07 | alpha1-2 | the spirit/playstyle of the game should be kept the same. But, why not starting with a clear list of nowadays problems to solve? I don't know: more authoritative server, improved networking, more realistic simulation, ... |
| 04:17.07 | alpha1-2 | and then finding a engine which acomplishes with them |
| 04:17.11 | alpha1-2 | an* |
| 04:17.46 | alpha1-2 | (but continuing with nowadays code also in paralel) |
| 04:22.36 | alpha1-2 | parallel* |
| 04:22.41 | blast007 | I don't think we have the time/devs to manage *two* codebases. It might have to be a change of focus, not a side project. |
| 04:26.17 | alpha1-2 | not saying it should be completely new/big projects (with every engine), but just simple models to test features (networking, simulation, etc). If they work, then, going further (because at the end will be a solution/help to improve/change the main code, not a problem) |
| 04:26.45 | blast007 | 'bout ready to post a code bounty for this AMD issue |
| 04:28.55 | alpha1-2 | (wow 2007 (chat log), that's about 10 years ago :), interesting) |
| 04:29.36 | alpha1-2 | Constitution: you must have been a kid there :) (joke) |
| 04:40.36 | alpha1-2 | there is a new player/developer here (sanandresm, joining/signing off), which doesn't speak English (he is in private with me) who is saying he knows Blender + engine, and made apparently some games/examples, also with Python. Maybe some basic, but it's something |
| 04:41.41 | alpha1-2 | he uses version 2.7, from 2014 |
| 04:41.51 | alpha1-2 | used* |
| 04:59.36 | Constitution | I doubt there is an engine which "fits" well with what we have now, since our current code doesn't follow any kind of standard layout or model... that was likely what tupone encountered |
| 04:59.48 | Constitution | hence, starting over from scratch |
| 05:01.18 | Constitution | alpha1-2: yes, tupone's project was what I was talking about... and I was old enough to buy cigarettes but not old enough to buy alcohol :) |
| 05:01.43 | alpha1-2 | did he start from scratch then, if I got it right? |
| 05:03.07 | Constitution | (both of which, by the way, tend to be hazardous to your kill/death ratio) |
| 05:03.17 | Constitution | and yes, that is an option being discussed |
| 05:05.48 | alpha1-2 | ah... '<Constitution> hence, starting over from scratch' means your opinion about what should be done, then, not what tupone did? |
| 05:06.36 | alpha1-2 | speak clear! :D |
| 05:06.57 | Constitution | correct |
| 05:07.10 | alpha1-2 | ah okay, *phew* |
| 05:07.17 | alpha1-2 | 2 am here |
| 05:08.18 | alpha1-2 | well, my latin new friend didn't connect anymore, must have some issues |
| 05:14.50 | alpha1-2 | according to that chat log, it seems there would be 2 ways to choose, regarding a new version (apart of current one): 1) modularizing, using different libraries from different projects, and 2) developing from scratch in a new engine (which has already modules for all, what I understand) (JeffM said this would be bad about compatibility, but maybe that is not very up-to-date now) |
| 05:15.53 | alpha1-2 | is the nowadays code well modularized already? |
| 05:16.32 | alpha1-2 | also, is it all/mostly OO? |
| 05:21.05 | alpha1-2 | the last thing sanandresm said was that he changed to C/C++ and GLUT 'cause he thought Blender icons was any kind of control over his projects |
| 06:19.28 | the_map | Constitution: both of those tend to shorten your real life span too actually |
| 06:20.30 | the_map | blast007: post a work around as "use a different OS or graphics card" :) |
| 06:42.50 | Constitution | that's what I meant :P |
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| 15:49.30 | alpha1-2 | Hi, I have been researching and found a very good free material + examples from an academy of Spain: the course called "Expert on Development of Videogames", oriented to meddium technical public. They say it's used internationally also, having more than 1.5 millions of downloading in 3 years and has Creative-Commons license SA-BY-NC. It's in Spanish tho (maybe there is any way to translate/find a translated version): http://www.cedv.es/ |
| 15:49.32 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:49.57 | alpha1-2 | (now AFK, I am in a hurry) |
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| 16:00.33 | alpha1-2 | oriented --> aimed* |
| 16:06.26 | alpha1-2 | the only bad thing I saw (bad AFAIK since it's not FLOSS), in a quick look, tho there are a lot of good things there, is that they apparently teach Unity at the last part, in case of movile platform development |
| 16:07.03 | alpha1-2 | (as the only option) |
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| 17:41.56 | alpha1-2 | hmm, despite the web page says BY-NC-*SA* (share alike) since the start of publications, the books are made, really, in BY-NC-*ND* (no derivative) (they are working in a new one, tho), then it won't be possible to make a direct translation (I downloaded all versions, except the first one, which links are died)... still a very good documentation. Also, every module has good bibliography referenced at the end (in English now). Still |
| 17:41.58 | alpha1-2 | trying to find the first ones. |
| 17:42.17 | blast007 | NC doesn't work for us regardless |
| 17:44.41 | alpha1-2 | ah true, BZ is LGPL... but, still, a very good material to study (not to copy/paste) |
| 17:45.11 | blast007 | I just avoid NC materials in general |
| 17:45.56 | blast007 | "You may not use the material for commercial purposes" so does that mean I can't learn from it and use it to make a commercial product? |
| 17:47.08 | blast007 | I'm sure the full legal document covers that, but not their quick "human readable" version |
| 17:50.46 | alpha1-2 | no, I don't think so. One always read a lot of comercial material (not even CC ones), which becomes part of one's general knowlegde, at the end. What one can't do is doing exactly copy/paste of the source code (examples of code in this case). Here, the list of the referenced material of the first module; they are texts taught in Universities also (this is an advanced academy): http://pastebin.com/bZFkwJjq |
| 17:50.52 | alpha1-2 | reads* |
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| 17:57.13 | alpha1-2 | the 3rd module is specially interesting (Advanced Techniques); here the references: http://pastebin.com/U92mkDgF |
| 18:05.36 | alpha1-2 | these authors did exactly the same, made a new work based in a lot of referenced material. AFAIK, it is possible to do it without major problems (sometimes the new author asks for permissions, sometimes it is not needed, just adding references) |
| 18:07.05 | alpha1-2 | in example, quoting another author *literally* might need explicit permission, I think |
| 18:07.32 | alpha1-2 | but not about general knowledge |
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| 18:12.11 | alpha1-2 | Note: those references are from the 2nd edition, the oldest one I got (but one that was easy to find references from, since modularized PDFs) (there are 2 more newer editions and 1 more to be published) |
| 18:19.33 | blast007 | hmm, bountysource.com takes a 10% cut of bounties when you cash out.. does that seem too high? |
| 18:20.14 | alpha1-2 | they say in the 4th edition that all examples, except where said the opposite, are distributed under GPLv3 |
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| 19:10.38 | alpha1-2 | last things I say (I don't want to bother): that school depends of an University (then, quality); "Ibéroamérica" (Latinamerica + Spain and Portugal), apparently, have grown a lot lately about development/game development; and some few interesting titles of the books in a quick look (I'm not a 3D specialist, tho): "Concurrency in C++11", "Multithreading in Ogre3D", "Hello World in OgreBullet", "Advanced C++" ("C++11/14: News about the |
| 19:10.40 | alpha1-2 | New Standard", ...), "Advanced Representation" ("Development of Shaders in Ogre", ...), "Programming in an Effective Way with C++" ("...}.RAII", "...const always", ...), "Movile Platforms", "AI", "Networking" ("Prediction and Extrapolation", ...), "Sound and Multimedia", "Advanced User Interfaces" (lots of them) |
| 19:13.45 | alpha1-2 | (going to eat) |
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| 20:32.43 | alpha1-2 | blast007: I was thinking more and I understand that NC together with ND, in this case, will only keep you from *selling* copies of the entire books ('entire', since you can't make derivative works). It is the only way I imagine to make money of the work, considering also that the code examples are released under GLPv3. Usually, CC licenses are not used related to code, but to cultural content like literature, art, etc. |
| 20:33.45 | blast007 | don't really care |
| 20:34.56 | alpha1-2 | in this case, not so cultural but technical text |
| 20:52.46 | *** part/#bzflag Flak (~Flak@2001:558:6030:27:cdbc:d363:dd9e:f5c3) |
| 20:59.27 | alpha1-2 | other topic: about Blender Game Engine, as quoted in Wikipedia page, there is a serious risk of being removed, 'cause of 1 or more of these reasons: "broken, hard to maintain, or lack a future". "The sequencer and game engine are in serious danger of removal, if we cannot come up with a good solution during the 2.8 project.". There are more than 200 comments. http://code.blender.org/2015/11/the-2-8-project-for-developers/ |
| 20:59.29 | alpha1-2 | I see a curious comparaison now: it ends saying "We make Blender for artists first" and the books mentioned above by me says at the start, in opposition, "this book is not aimed to public with an artistic profile (modelers, animation makers, musicians, etc.)". :) Blender model uses an engine intimately related with the editor, while the book uses modularization, not engine (except the mobile part), what I saw. The same 2 views we have. |
| 21:03.11 | blast007 | so sounds like Blender isn't for us then |
| 21:08.11 | alpha1-2 | hmm not sure, for me at least, it would be one of few to be selected |
| 21:09.49 | blast007 | "We make Blender for artists first" What artists do we have? |
| 21:10.06 | alpha1-2 | or maybe a better view is to modularize, as you say. I asked last night: "Is BZ well modurarized already? Is it mostly/all OO?" |
| 21:10.35 | blast007 | no, it's not modularized |
| 21:10.47 | blast007 | there is sound code mixed in with networking and game logic and rendering |
| 21:11.52 | alpha1-2 | and about OO? |
| 21:12.14 | blast007 | we have some OO and some not |
| 21:13.03 | alpha1-2 | it was mostly Imperative code (C) at start, right? |
| 21:13.46 | alpha1-2 | there is always Imperative coed into OO, tho |
| 21:14.23 | blast007 | it was closed source from 1992 through like 2000 or 2001 - how would I know? :) |
| 21:14.46 | alpha1-2 | but not mainly modularized is something serious, specially if you guys want to use, later, external libraries |
| 21:14.51 | blast007 | the project history I think says it started out in C and was rewritten in C++ |
| 21:15.04 | blast007 | but why does any of that matter? |
| 21:15.08 | alpha1-2 | okay |
| 21:15.49 | alpha1-2 | they are modern styles/paradigms |
| 21:16.06 | blast007 | what is the goal of this conversation? |
| 21:16.28 | alpha1-2 | it's a decision also: "will we use Imperative or OO?" |
| 21:17.41 | blast007 | Why? Are we going to write it in Turbo Pascal instead? |
| 21:17.50 | alpha1-2 | aren't some of us discussing about modularizing VS switching to a new engine? |
| 21:18.07 | alpha1-2 | C is Imperative |
| 21:18.18 | blast007 | we use C++ |
| 21:19.30 | alpha1-2 | I agree, but if it is not well migrated to OO and modularized, you won't be able to use external libraries so easy, or imposible |
| 21:22.03 | op90 | Question: how much of bzworkbench was finished? |
| 21:22.58 | blast007 | op90: I'd say it's comparable in features to the Windows version of BZEdit |
| 21:24.02 | alpha1-2 | op90: Blender is the best editor for BZ nowadays, AFAIK |
| 21:24.17 | alpha1-2 | This is another page which is worth it to be read. Planeshift, related to Cristal Space project; they have decided to switch to Unreal Engine (which is not FLOSS) after analizing it together with Blender Engine, Ogre and Unity. To me, in a first view, it seemed the main developers don't have a very clear vision about FLOSS licenses, but the big amount of comments (more than 100) seem interesting. http://www.planeshift.it/article/2015/ |
| 21:24.18 | alpha1-2 | Lets%20make%20PlaneShift%20Unreal |
| 21:24.58 | op90 | alpha1-2: But blender has a big learning curve. |
| 21:25.00 | alpha1-2 | http://www.planeshift.it/article/2015/Lets%20make%20PlaneShift%20Unreal (was cut off) |
| 21:26.16 | alpha1-2 | yes, I agree, but Blender has a very good future, and it's the only one which can work with modern BZ features |
| 21:26.32 | blast007 | blender isn't better... |
| 21:26.37 | op90 | blast007: thanks. Had to break some stuff while getting it to compile and run again. Slowly putting things back again. So I wanted to get a sense about what was supposed to work. |
| 21:26.56 | blast007 | op90: the thing is, there has never been an editor that supported all of the BZFlag 2.0 map features. |
| 21:27.33 | op90 | I already happy I have an editor I can make training maps with now! |
| 21:27.36 | blast007 | there have been editors that do a lot, but usually lack support for the 'mesh' object at minimum, and usually lack support for things like materials |
| 21:27.54 | blast007 | I think BZWorkbench does support materials to some extent, even handling texture downloads |
| 21:29.38 | op90 | I does some kind of mesh too. It has a map called H20-R1. It claims to be loading meshes, and the map is really complex in detail. |
| 21:29.46 | blast007 | alpha1-2: please don't spread misinformation about map editing. Blender can only create mesh objects, and then you have to use an external tool (like our modeltool) to convert it to a BZFlag world file. |
| 21:30.15 | blast007 | op90: perhaps it got that far then. I haven't looked at it in a while. |
| 21:32.07 | op90 | The code is quite nice too. (Not like what I see in my day-job :) |
| 21:36.01 | blast007 | A pair of students wrote it during Google Summer of Code, one in 2007 and one in 2009. https://developers.google.com/open-source/gsoc/2007/#bzflag https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org2/google/gsoc2009/bzflag |
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| 21:39.13 | op90 | Thanks. Nice to have some background info. |
| 22:13.10 | alpha1-2 | I was trying a little of map edition somewhat recently, though I tried all the methods, that I remeber. I did this: I saved file from BZ using -o (it gives you a .obj) and imported it directly from Blender (I saved also the .bzw). The inverse way: I exported file from Blender to .obj, opened it with Wings3D and converted it to .bzw. All the other methods failed to me or were not the best: lack of features or weren't updated/crashed. |
| 22:13.12 | alpha1-2 | Problems I had were: 1) I lost all textures 2) I had to add few lines from the original file like base definitions (I don't remember others). "While basic dedicated map editors, such as BZEdit, can often only create simple objects, 3D modeling software can create complex custom mesh objects" https://wiki.bzflag.org/Category:Map_Making |
| 22:17.18 | alpha1-2 | (I lost all textures from the original BZ file to .obj one; didn't try the inverse) |
| 22:19.16 | alpha1-2 | maybe my problems were something obvious, but I am not experienced with this |
| 22:19.44 | kierra | if you want interesting textures, talk to exuro aka redder |
| 22:20.09 | alpha1-2 | thanks :) |
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| 23:02.09 | blast007 | alpha1-2: that's because you need to hand edit your map to put textures and such in. And when you're using a mesh, you have to do it differently than with just boxes and such. And you lose teleporters and other properties. |
| 23:03.11 | blast007 | So again, Blender is not a BZFlag map editor. Nor is Wings3D. Wings3D just has an option to output it's mesh as a BZFlag world file. |
| 23:09.24 | alpha1-2 | ah, I understand better now, was going to ask why you thought Blender was not the best (because it's one of the best if not the best 3D FLOSS modeler). But, now, what would be the best solution about edition for the future?, improving either Blender plugin or any specialized editor? |
| 23:22.44 | blast007 | edition? editing? |
| 23:23.35 | alpha1-2 | yes |
| 23:25.13 | alpha1-2 | (edition can be used too) |