| 00:18.27 | *** join/#bzflag zuii (~cauchy@BC06BF93.catv.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 00:27.15 | macsforme | I don't think the list server code is fully available... blast007 could speak to that, but I thought the code in the repository is outdated |
| 00:29.06 | blast007 | should be the same or very close. svn diff is only showing minor changes to weblogin.php |
| 00:30.36 | blast007 | yeah, the file is identical |
| 00:30.42 | blast007 | to what is in git as well |
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| 00:52.42 | echelon | hey BulletCatcher :) |
| 00:53.10 | KaadmY | yo |
| 00:53.17 | echelon | hey, it's you |
| 00:53.24 | echelon | < titmouse :} |
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| 01:00.40 | BulletCatcher | Hi, echelon! |
| 01:00.58 | echelon | what's happenin' |
| 01:01.46 | BulletCatcher | I am catching up after being on vacation for a week. |
| 01:02.24 | echelon | back from vacation.. just in time for the 4th of july weekend ^_^ |
| 01:03.19 | BulletCatcher | Yup. I have an extra day to recover before going back to work on Tuesday. |
| 01:03.37 | echelon | nice :] |
| 01:03.45 | echelon | oh, tuesday |
| 01:03.51 | echelon | yeah |
| 01:04.04 | echelon | i've got like 3 interviews lined up next week |
| 01:04.18 | echelon | this week* |
| 01:04.29 | BulletCatcher | Nice. Hope at least one of them goes well. |
| 01:04.52 | echelon | i'm really hoping to get this 100% remote gig |
| 01:05.02 | echelon | so i can relocate anywhere |
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| 14:50.37 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Blast * 0 /Installing: content was: "BZFlag can be installed two ways: via a binary or via source. Binary is best for most people. Source is good for platforms like Linux that make compiling source code easy. It also is good for getting up-to-the-minute versions, and is abs..." |
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| 15:56.34 | blast007 | hopes he did this right ;D |
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| 15:57.13 | BZnotify | [13bzflag] 15blast007 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/vKJxh |
| 15:57.13 | BZnotify | 13bzflag/06master 14e574743 15Scott Wichser: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/2.4'... |
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| 15:57.51 | blast007 | so in theory, all the 2.4 changes should be merged into master again |
| 16:00.11 | macsforme | so now that even our project admins are discussing a re-write from scratch (and since consolidating such an effort under the current project is by far a preferable path, so we can try to avoid fracturing the remaining community with multiple clone projects), I would like to lay out some changes in management that I would like to see in order to contribute to such an effort (and I would plan to contribute extensively)... |
| 16:01.50 | macsforme | first, some diversification of authority... get out completely from under Tim, and no one person holding all the keys (I don't know how we got to only one person (?) having a shell account on the list server, for example, and we should have several people with access to the DNS records, etc.) |
| 16:02.27 | JeffM | it's always been one person, macsforme just so you know the history, Chris then Tim |
| 16:04.01 | blast007 | macsforme: I used to have BulletCatcher on the server as well, but I guess that was never put back after I moved to a server with DDoS protection |
| 16:04.38 | blast007 | joevano is a secondary contact with my provider and I believe has IP-KVM access |
| 16:04.54 | macsforme | second, people setting the direction and policies for the game should be actual stakeholders; that is, people who play the game or who have played extensively, so the product reflects what the users actually want (within reason; I realize that a unified vision is necessary, but it should primarily be from someone who understands why people play the game) |
| 16:05.12 | blast007 | though would have to boot to recovery mode to do anything, I suppose, also given lack of account |
| 16:05.37 | macsforme | thirdly, a weak copyleft license so we can have it in Apple's app stores for mac, iOS, and tvOS |
| 16:08.30 | blast007 | so are you also suggesting that we change the name of the game? |
| 16:09.32 | macsforme | yes |
| 16:09.45 | macsforme | and fourth, project leadership should be approachable and should not subject new contributors to needless ridicule and drive them away such as we have done in the past (I think we've been doing a little better lately, or maybe there have simply been fewer new contributors) |
| 16:11.13 | macsforme | JeffM: I know, and that's fine if the one person in charge is accessible and sets the vision for the project, but Tim has done neither of those things for some time |
| 16:11.31 | JeffM | macsforme: you are very much correct |
| 16:11.51 | blast007 | even if they're accessible, there's the bus factor ;) |
| 16:12.20 | blast007 | and I've not done my best to mitigate the bus factor with the current server, at least lately |
| 16:13.23 | macsforme | I think those four things are the critical things for me... there are other ideas I would like to implement, like taking the "don't trust the client" idea to its fullest extent, but that and the rest are just ideas |
| 16:14.26 | macsforme | what's the bus factor? |
| 16:14.38 | blast007 | how many people need to get hit by a bus before you're totally screwed |
| 16:14.40 | JeffM | how many people have to be hit by a bus for the project to be terminal |
| 16:14.53 | JeffM | so for DNS that is 1 |
| 16:15.05 | JeffM | well domain reg I mean |
| 16:15.12 | blast007 | and listserver is like 1.1 ;) |
| 16:15.34 | JeffM | .1 is better then 0, it means it'll be hard, but possible |
| 16:16.15 | blast007 | easy enough to bring to a 2 or a 3 though |
| 16:16.23 | JeffM | it all depends on how mission critical/replaceable the system is |
| 16:16.41 | blast007 | the data itself is the critical part |
| 16:17.01 | JeffM | you should probabably back that up with some other trusted users. |
| 16:17.03 | blast007 | and if the server dies, there's still only one person that can restore from backup (me) |
| 16:17.18 | JeffM | or check it into a private repo with multiple users. |
| 16:22.42 | macsforme | blast007: there used to be several more people, including myself, who had shell access to the list server and could be more involved (even after you had it)... I know you've done several things to tighten security and mitigate DDoS attacks (which is good), but the appearance is that this critical part of our infrastructure is becoming more dependent on one person, which IMHO is not the best |
| 16:24.15 | blast007 | macsforme: previously, the server was split up into VMs as well, so BZFlag stuff was split from my personal stuff |
| 16:24.51 | blast007 | but I don't have a sizable blocks of IPs anymore because I have to pay for DDoS mitigation per IP |
| 16:25.32 | JeffM | how much would a seperate server for game stuff cost? |
| 16:26.37 | blast007 | probably $20/month for a VPS with enough RAM |
| 16:26.51 | JeffM | does that include DDOS? |
| 16:26.52 | blast007 | I had been looking at another host since mine has been having a lot of network issues |
| 16:26.55 | blast007 | no |
| 16:27.01 | JeffM | how much with DDOS? |
| 16:30.28 | blast007 | that varies a lot |
| 16:30.50 | JeffM | how much are you paying now? |
| 16:30.57 | blast007 | $150 |
| 16:31.04 | JeffM | a month? |
| 16:31.06 | blast007 | yes |
| 16:31.11 | JeffM | that is sizeable |
| 16:31.12 | blast007 | for my dedicated |
| 16:32.21 | blast007 | and I'd have to pay more to get IPv6, and that probably wouldn't be protected :P |
| 16:35.30 | JeffM | hmm, suposedly 'm geting 250 Mbps / 250K PPS of DDOS protection for free, I have no idea how much that is :) |
| 16:35.45 | JeffM | I'd be willing to buy you guys a VPS or 2 for a year if you want it |
| 16:36.25 | JeffM | how much rams do you need? |
| 16:37.38 | blast007 | attacks on the list server reached almost gigabit speeds once, iirc |
| 16:38.57 | blast007 | how much I need now will not be how much I need in the future |
| 16:39.04 | JeffM | 1 GBPs /500k pps is 5$ a month with the host I currently use |
| 16:39.14 | blast007 | we're running some memory heavy web apps right now that I intend to replace |
| 16:39.37 | blast007 | even now it's probably overkill (16GB) |
| 16:39.55 | JeffM | ok, yeah that's a lot |
| 16:40.04 | blast007 | though it probably means that databases can stick around in RAM |
| 16:41.30 | JeffM | but still actual server stuff is minor, you should discuss macsforme 's other points |
| 16:43.55 | blast007 | the only point I disagree with is the weak copyleft license |
| 16:44.39 | JeffM | you prefer your freedom enforced? |
| 16:46.24 | blast007 | I'd be making the new web stuff AGPL, for instance, because I want to require that the source be made available |
| 16:47.04 | JeffM | that would probalby fit his desires, since the web stuff would not be included in his iOS version |
| 16:47.18 | blast007 | but I want the same for the actual game code |
| 16:47.21 | JeffM | diferent licenses probalby benifit different parts of the project |
| 16:47.31 | JeffM | so you want your freedom enforced |
| 16:48.43 | blast007 | yes |
| 16:48.44 | JeffM | that's going to be the GPL vs BSD argument that you all will have to come to terms with |
| 16:48.48 | blast007 | I'd prefer GPL for the game |
| 16:49.09 | JeffM | then that means no apples ;) |
| 16:50.27 | macsforme | I would compromise and go mozilla 2.0, but no FSF stuff or anything else that would keep us from deploying to iOS and tvOS |
| 16:50.30 | blast007 | not even with some exception for crappy app stores added? |
| 16:51.41 | macsforme | some people add that clause to the GPL... I guess I would entertain that... but that's basically MPL 2.0 anyway |
| 16:55.30 | JeffM | I think you should defenatly entertain taloring the license to the specific project |
| 16:55.58 | JeffM | and breaking stuff into seperate projects, like the services, they do not need to be part of the same proejct/repo |
| 16:56.09 | JeffM | then more bits are reusable |
| 16:56.26 | JeffM | I've seen some games break into engine, game, assets, services. |
| 16:56.40 | JeffM | each treated as a seperate project that all combine to make one deliverble |
| 16:56.59 | JeffM | but each project is managed in a way that makes the most sense for that sub system |
| 16:57.06 | JeffM | even if developers are shared |
| 17:00.23 | macsforme | other than making more sense for code/assets, what does having multiple licenses bring us other than causing confusion? |
| 17:00.31 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 8974 /BZFlag_Source: updated link to Github |
| 17:01.04 | JeffM | well if you were willing to let the code be BSD, but the services be GPL, etc... |
| 17:01.21 | JeffM | mostly it's to satisfy people's needs |
| 17:01.24 | JeffM | but also development styles |
| 17:01.36 | JeffM | the developent cycle for game code, is VERY different from that of services |
| 17:01.45 | JeffM | web services can get updates all the time with out impacting the client |
| 17:01.50 | JeffM | so it can run very agile |
| 17:02.14 | JeffM | yet your engine code needs to be rock solid, and needs a lot more testing before it can be the basis of stuff |
| 17:02.23 | JeffM | your code stuff will have alpha/beta/release cycles |
| 17:02.29 | JeffM | your websites won't |
| 17:02.36 | JeffM | they will have agile pushes |
| 17:02.51 | JeffM | so it's more then just licensing |
| 17:03.24 | JeffM | I'm just pointing out thing's I've seen, for your info. |
| 17:04.27 | macsforme | as for servers, I think ideally the project should own 2-3 servers distributed geographically, each one being an auth server mirror and each one being game host with a lobby for players to choose a map and start a game on a server close to them |
| 17:04.48 | blast007 | macsforme: a requirement for the new web services would be a distributed environment |
| 17:04.58 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 8975 /BZFlag_README: updated to latest readme |
| 17:04.59 | blast007 | at least for critical services |
| 17:05.11 | macsforme | okay, good |
| 17:05.50 | JeffM | that's another reason for treating things as seperate projects, you let the people that know the most about services, run and DESIGN services. and you let people that know about engines, design engines. |
| 17:05.59 | JeffM | instead of trying to mash them up |
| 17:08.56 | macsforme | that sounds fine |
| 17:10.13 | JeffM | I think that helps give you the breadth of leadership you looking for too, you will have a group of leads |
| 17:11.19 | JeffM | or at least an indicator when ledership is getting too thin, if the same person is lead on multiple sub proejcts, you got problems. |
| 17:12.57 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 8976 /Administrator: updated link |
| 17:17.38 | macsforme | I think we need some kind of lobby that only lists active games... so maybe have an identical set of maps on each project-owned server, which we can update with new maps as needed, so people can start games with what they want, and we can just list those... 150 inactive servers just doesn't help the game |
| 17:18.51 | blast007 | have official servers run by the project, league servers run by the project (that integrate with league web services run by the project), and community servers |
| 17:18.55 | JeffM | get your project structure settled, then worry about details ;) |
| 17:20.35 | blast007 | http://static.bzexcess.com/misc_screenshots/Albatross18_Lobby.png |
| 17:20.52 | blast007 | gotta have somewhere to buy hats |
| 17:31.19 | macsforme | I would help out in several areas, but I would like to take primary on the user interface stuff... the menu interface and the in-game HUD... you've all probably seen some of my mockups |
| 17:34.08 | blast007 | I'd focus on the web services |
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| 17:53.18 | macsforme | I have a few ideas for lag compensation involving adjusting shot timing that I want to build simulations for so I can try to predict how they would affect gameplay... if that reveals anything useful, that may help us decide on an appropriate engine or appropriate libraries/methods for networking and physics |
| 17:55.07 | macsforme | basically delaying the initial shot on the shooter's end, advancing it on the target's end, or the best combination of the two |
| 17:56.11 | macsforme | I think we established that trying to adjust tank positions over laggy connections doesn't work well |
| 17:58.07 | blast007 | regardless, clients will just send input state to the server (and other things like chat), server will send out actual player state |
| 17:59.18 | macsforme | agreed |
| 18:00.50 | blast007 | the Urho3D engine already does that |
| 18:01.18 | blast007 | but that engine is not packaged on most linux distributions, so we'd want to think about that as well |
| 18:01.55 | blast007 | do we care if we're packaged in linux repositories? or do we just release source and static builds ourself? |
| 18:13.52 | macsforme | I think being in linux distribution repositories would be helpful, or we could see how container technology progresses and consider distributing it that way |
| 18:20.21 | blast007 | There's not a whole lot packaged for Debian. They've got Ogre, Irrlicht, and ioquake3, at least. |
| 18:21.13 | blast007 | no idea what it would take to get Urho3D packaged, and I'm not sure if their API is stable enough for that to work out well |
| 18:46.41 | macsforme | could we just include it with our source package? I know we were trying to get away from that, but if we do it as a git submodule there shouldn't be much maintenance for us, and since there's no existing package for it I don't see why distros should complain |
| 18:48.40 | blast007 | Urho3D includes a lot of third party libraries in-tree |
| 18:49.00 | blast007 | https://github.com/urho3d/Urho3D/tree/1.5/Source/ThirdParty |
| 18:49.33 | blast007 | Debian would want those removed and having it use libraries from Debian |
| 18:49.45 | blast007 | and some of those may not already be packaged either |
| 18:49.54 | macsforme | well, we could go the container route |
| 19:10.46 | JeffM | what percentage of your userbase will use debian packages? |
| 19:31.15 | blast007 | no way to know that |
| 19:31.34 | blast007 | well, I guess we could kinda estimate that based on the version/date string |
| 19:31.59 | JeffM | everything you are doing now is estimation |
| 19:32.09 | blast007 | at the very least, I should try to get 2.4.6 into Debian so their next release gets that |
| 19:32.10 | macsforme | a lot of people do talk about finding BZFlag from browsing their Linux repo, though |
| 19:32.18 | JeffM | what you have to do is estimate what impact the debian polities will have on your final user base. |
| 19:32.36 | blast007 | I think it would have a decent impact |
| 19:32.57 | blast007 | but on the flip side, then we have old versions sticking around longer than we'd like |
| 19:32.59 | JeffM | for 1/4 of the player base |
| 19:33.16 | JeffM | that is another thing to evaluate, does the debian model serve your needs? |
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