| 00:00.01 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.08 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.26 | JeffM | nobody is going to accept anything other than a pull request |
| 00:00.30 | JeffM | and that will need an account |
| 00:01.02 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.16 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.32 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.44 | JeffM | how did they license it? |
| 00:01.51 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.52 | JeffM | probalby under an umbrella org |
| 00:02.02 | JeffM | free soft is not a known license |
| 00:02.49 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:03.00 | JeffM | then it must be copyright to something |
| 00:03.26 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:03.39 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:04.09 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:04.47 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:04.52 | JeffM | just what does the copyright line say? |
| 00:05.15 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:05.28 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:05.41 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:09.49 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:11.17 | JeffM | well I don't think anyone here would accept code without a real name. |
| 00:12.10 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:12.28 | JeffM | MIT |
| 00:12.32 | JeffM | always the best :) |
| 00:12.37 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 00:12.40 | JeffM | maxium freedom |
| 00:13.02 | alpha1-2 | thanks anyway |
| 00:13.10 | alpha1-2 | will take it in mind |
| 00:14.29 | allejo | thought BSD was the most permissive |
| 00:15.09 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:15.13 | JeffM | that may be what I am thinking of |
| 00:15.18 | JeffM | MIT and BSD are very similar |
| 00:26.13 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:26.32 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:26.32 | JeffM | he can relicense it however he wants |
| 00:26.36 | JeffM | you granted all rights |
| 00:26.59 | JeffM | he can even claim copyright of his copy |
| 00:27.35 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:27.55 | JeffM | no |
| 00:28.09 | JeffM | because if you tried to sue him he could show that the origonal was PD |
| 00:28.16 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:28.55 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:29.14 | JeffM | nope, not if it's PD |
| 00:29.27 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:29.55 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:30.19 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:30.25 | JeffM | that's the same as PD |
| 00:30.36 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:31.28 | JeffM | you could not guarantie anything, you claim no copyright |
| 00:32.02 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:32.47 | allejo | and if you start claiming copyright on bits and pieces of code you end up with the Linux kernel |
| 00:32.51 | blast007 | CC 0 isn't the same as PD in juristictions that don't have PD, it's just very, very close |
| 00:33.00 | JeffM | sure |
| 00:33.14 | JeffM | it grants the same effective rights, of no copyright |
| 00:33.20 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:33.25 | blast007 | the reason CC0 exists is because some countries/whatever don't have PD |
| 00:33.30 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:37.01 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:37.01 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:38.38 | JeffM | so then he can't use the code |
| 00:38.46 | JeffM | you did not grant any rights with that |
| 00:39.32 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:40.42 | alpha1-2 | if I give an idea he could mention me, not sure about code |
| 00:42.39 | alpha1-2 | found it "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no representations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work", as you say |
| 00:42.44 | alpha1-2 | (CC 0) |
| 00:43.25 | alpha1-2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:43.25 | blast007 | kinda silly this discussion is still going on |
| 00:45.15 | JeffM | oh very much so :) |
| 00:45.23 | JeffM | if it was me, I'd not accept code from him at all |
| 00:49.45 | allejo | this has made me curious about how copyright works on your average GitHub project that doesn't have something like a CLA |
| 01:11.28 | JeffM | techincaly each submiter has copyright |
| 01:11.34 | JeffM | so changing licneses is a pain |
| 01:11.41 | JeffM | each author must agree |
| 01:15.30 | JeffM | I was going to sugest that you add a license restriction to your plugin site, but then I rememberd that bzflag changed to MPL, so my concern is no longer valid :) |
| 01:15.49 | JeffM | it used to be if you used ANY code from any sample plugin your entire plugin had to be LGPL |
| 01:15.59 | JeffM | but with MPL you can pick and choose code segments |
| 01:16.05 | blast007 | sample plugin is a different license anyway |
| 01:16.19 | JeffM | the sample is, but the other real ones arn't |
| 01:16.23 | blast007 | yeah |
| 01:16.36 | JeffM | and sample has a different license for that reason |
| 01:17.31 | JeffM | so $10 and you'll delete his account? |
| 01:22.41 | allejo | lol |
| 01:23.06 | JeffM | can I get 3 for 25$? |
| 01:30.19 | blast007 | :) |
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| 19:15.18 | macsforme | for my premake project, I'm figuring out which configuration options will be required and what sane defaults would be |
| 19:16.59 | macsforme | I'm planning to leave the SDL default at SDL2 like it is now, with options for SDL 1 or disabling it where supported |
| 19:20.35 | macsforme | building plugins will be another... should that really default to enabled? it seems that in day-to-day development, between repeated building and cleaning, plugins just consume a lot of build time and aren't generally needed except for server builds and release builds |
| 19:22.20 | macsforme | and when building for a server, you're already specifying one option to disable the client build, so one more doesn't seem like it would hurt |
| 19:27.05 | macsforme | and then I'm envisioning one more option to enable/disable the installer creation on Windows... probably default to disabled... so then the standard configuration would give you the client and server only, and we would enable plugins and the installer when building for release |
| 19:28.45 | macsforme | --enable-debug will go away... all build systems (including gnu make) will be able to switch debug building on and off at will |
| 19:30.46 | macsforme | I welcome any thoughts on whether these defaults are ideal or if there would be better ones |
| 19:44.48 | blast007 | plugins consume a lot of build time? really? |
| 19:49.48 | blast007 | are we compiling on 200MHz MMX systems? |
| 19:50.50 | blast007 | cleaning the build environment shouldn't be something you do every build anyway |
| 19:51.46 | macsforme | also, right now each platform puts the intermediate build files in a different place... a side benefit of premake is that it puts all of them in one directory regardless of the operating system... I'm looking how Windows does it right now, and I think the premake standard build directory could work equivalently, but I'm sure we would have to modify the installer script and a few other things |
| 19:53.12 | macsforme | plugins could add a minute or two, depending on the system... not a ton of time but if repeated a lot it can add up |
| 19:53.39 | blast007 | so, Pentium 200MMX |
| 19:55.20 | KaadmY | bzflag takes forever to compile |
| 19:55.27 | blast007 | on a toaster? |
| 19:55.29 | KaadmY | most other stuff i compile is faster |
| 19:55.34 | KaadmY | 1.2Ghz, 2 core |
| 19:55.38 | KaadmY | not the fastest at all |
| 19:55.59 | KaadmY | but stuff like assaultcube, darkplaces, tesseract, quetoo, minetest are all 3-4 minutes |
| 19:56.02 | KaadmY | bzflag is like 10 |
| 19:56.12 | macsforme | I've been building and cleaning a lot during my work on the build system, obviously... I suppose we would be doing that when we add, remove, or move a file, and possibly from time to time in addition to that (based on my own experience) |
| 19:57.41 | macsforme | even if not a manual clean and rebuild, you can change a header or something that effectively prompts a full re-build, which takes the same amount of time |
| 20:00.53 | blast007 | KaadmY: those are likely using more third-party libraries that are already built on your system. |
| 20:01.15 | blast007 | minetest, for instance, builds against an entire game engine |
| 20:01.20 | KaadmY | yes, but most of the time is still compiling bzflag, not builtin libs |
| 20:01.44 | blast007 | what "builtin libs"? |
| 20:01.49 | blast007 | we removed those several versions ago |
| 20:02.27 | blast007 | we don't have an audio lib or a network lib or a font lib. it's all internal code. |
| 20:02.36 | KaadmY | i thought bz2 etc was still builtin? |
| 20:02.56 | blast007 | zlib? |
| 20:02.59 | KaadmY | yeah |
| 20:03.00 | blast007 | no |
| 20:04.02 | blast007 | so sure, if we removed our rendering code, sound code, PNG encoder/decoder, plugin system, and font system, we might build in around the same amount of time ;) |
| 20:06.34 | TD-Linux | real2m44.903s |
| 20:07.20 | TD-Linux | the real killer for compile time is C++. |
| 20:08.20 | blast007 | a debug build on my development desktop (i5-2500K, 16GB RAM, Intel DC S3500 SSD) it took about 1:57, full build with plugins |
| 20:11.28 | KaadmY | lemme try a make clean |
| 20:12.22 | blast007 | release build with the installer created, about 3:10 |
| 20:12.38 | blast007 | plugins were still only a second or two each, though |
| 20:13.01 | KaadmY | i'm also compiling on one core, i have a 2-core cpu :| |
| 20:13.15 | TD-Linux | make -j2 |
| 20:13.38 | KaadmY | then it'll pretty much freeze everything else |
| 20:14.02 | TD-Linux | >1.2Ghz, 2 core |
| 20:14.04 | TD-Linux | is that a macbook? |
| 20:14.11 | KaadmY | lenovo x300 |
| 20:14.41 | blast007 | I usually do -j3 for a dual-core and -j5 for a quad |
| 20:15.10 | blast007 | saw that as advice somewhere long ago - dunno if still relevant |
| 20:15.11 | KaadmY | one minute in, compiling GameTime.cxx |
| 20:15.24 | KaadmY | .lo* |
| 20:17.48 | macsforme | my system usually builds in 3 - 5 minutes, depending on the OS and settings... but I think when using gnu make, only one plugin can be built at a time, which stretches out the build time |
| 20:18.17 | KaadmY | build the tank model right now, 4 minutes in |
| 20:19.11 | blast007 | oh yeah, I'm betting those other games you mentioned also don't hard-code their geometry into the game code ;) |
| 20:19.19 | KaadmY | that helps |
| 20:19.39 | KaadmY | i want to do a self-challenge |
| 20:19.56 | KaadmY | write the best game i can with as little resources as i can |
| 20:20.17 | KaadmY | ie. low memory, low install size, fast compile, etc |
| 20:21.19 | Zehra | good luck |
| 20:21.39 | KaadmY | 100% C, palettized sprites |
| 20:21.47 | KaadmY | RPG probably |
| 20:21.55 | Zehra | btw one thing i've noticed |
| 20:21.56 | KaadmY | because i like pixel art and RPGs :) |
| 20:22.15 | Zehra | it seems like there's a hidden command or something which shuts down a game client |
| 20:22.27 | Zehra | i was on bztank.net |
| 20:22.38 | KaadmY | did it crash or close nicely |
| 20:22.57 | Zehra | and the client paused like for a second |
| 20:23.06 | Zehra | then closed |
| 20:23.32 | KaadmY | can you reproduce it? |
| 20:23.39 | Zehra | note i pressed f4 or f1 |
| 20:23.56 | Zehra | i think it was f4 |
| 20:24.27 | KaadmY | btw compiling ServerSidePlayer.lo right now |
| 20:24.32 | KaadmY | 9 minutes already |
| 20:26.31 | Zehra | if anyone reports something similar with the client suddenly closing |
| 20:26.38 | Zehra | please let me know |
| 20:27.54 | macsforme | Zehra: F4 iconifies the client |
| 20:28.16 | macsforme | so it should be minimized |
| 20:28.47 | Zehra | i checked there too |
| 20:29.16 | Zehra | i had something similar happen a few times |
| 20:30.01 | Zehra | i think about six or so months ago at urban jungle |
| 20:30.21 | Zehra | client didn't freeze or anything |
| 20:30.31 | blast007 | KaadmY: https://web.archive.org/web/20120204065621/http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger |
| 20:30.37 | KaadmY | i saw that |
| 20:30.41 | KaadmY | like a year or so ago |
| 20:32.50 | KaadmY | 22 minutes to compile |
| 20:32.55 | KaadmY | -j2 |
| 20:33.20 | blast007 | gets his toaster |
| 20:33.53 | KaadmY | i'll try redeclipse |
| 20:37.09 | macsforme | the amount of build time plugins consume should be weighed against the benefit of including them by default... in my experience, with a few exceptions, I've generally only actually needed to build plugins on servers and for stable releases |
| 20:37.41 | JeffM | how long does your build take? |
| 20:38.49 | blast007 | "< macsforme> my system usually builds in 3 - 5 minutes, depending on the OS and settings..." |
| 20:39.10 | macsforme | 3 - 5 minutes... on gnu make it's longer because it's non-parallel |
| 20:39.26 | JeffM | that seems reasonable |
| 20:39.33 | macsforme | or on the longer end of that |
| 20:39.48 | JeffM | it's only once, after that it's incremental right? |
| 20:40.00 | KaadmY | redeclipse is 5 minutes |
| 20:40.46 | macsforme | unless you change a header or a build setting or move a file |
| 20:41.04 | JeffM | but that is one reason why on windows I did seperate proejcts, only fullbuild does plugins, and that's a thing you only do for a release. so once every few years |
| 20:41.24 | JeffM | only one header should trigger plugins to build |
| 20:42.03 | blast007 | I use fullbuild for normal development anyway |
| 20:42.08 | JeffM | really |
| 20:42.12 | JeffM | how long does it take you? |
| 20:42.40 | blast007 | 1:57 for debug, 3:10 for release (with installer) |
| 20:43.09 | JeffM | yeah it paralellizes the plugins |
| 20:43.33 | blast007 | I figure the release is probably longer because it has to optimize the files, right? |
| 20:49.40 | blast007 | I'd test the build on my atom system, but Windows Update is so horrid that it can't install .NET 2.0/3.0 |
| 20:50.06 | JeffM | it's probalby just the installer part |
| 20:50.12 | JeffM | compression of hte installer is not fast |
| 20:50.23 | blast007 | the installer didn't take long |
| 20:50.33 | blast007 | probably 10 or 15 seconds |
| 20:50.34 | JeffM | debug has to build PDBs, release has to optimize, those generaly take about the same time. |
| 20:50.41 | JeffM | I recall the compression being slow |
| 20:50.48 | JeffM | but it's been a while since I used VC10 |
| 20:51.02 | JeffM | but yes, release does optimize |
| 20:59.23 | blast007 | building in a Debian VM with two cores and 2GB RAM allocated on this system took 6:05 |
| 21:01.01 | JeffM | has too many 3d printers on his desk |
| 21:01.09 | blast007 | (and that was also using my mechanical harddrive, not my SSD) |
| 21:02.00 | KaadmY | i have an ssd, but it's not too useful anyway |
| 21:02.07 | KaadmY | 64gb, 16gb left |
| 21:02.25 | KaadmY | but the 5 second boot :P |
| 21:02.28 | JeffM | that's a small SSD |
| 21:02.32 | KaadmY | 2008 |
| 21:03.26 | JeffM | I think I got a 512 for under 100$ |
| 21:04.24 | blast007 | I'll take reliable over cheap |
| 21:04.59 | JeffM | it was a samsung |
| 21:04.59 | KaadmY | every year i keep telling myself this ssd's going to die |
| 21:05.02 | JeffM | evo something |
| 21:05.28 | JeffM | it's one that my IT friend has used in a bunch of our systems at work |
| 21:08.12 | blast007 | debug build on that VM only took 4:34 |
| 21:09.12 | JeffM | I just got access to an older imac from work, going to try visual studio for mac on it |
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| 21:10.52 | blast007 | I've got a 512GB Samsung PRO NVME in my new build, but there I cared more about speed |
| 21:11.22 | JeffM | I had a 256, but ran out of space, so I got the 512 and slapped the 256 in my laptop |
| 21:11.50 | blast007 | the Intel drive in this system is for datacenters and has a supercapacitor for safe drive shutdowns in the event of power loss |
| 21:12.03 | JeffM | nice |
| 21:12.12 | JeffM | supercapacitors just sound cool |
| 21:12.19 | blast007 | yeah ;) |
| 21:12.27 | blast007 | my dashcam has one too |
| 21:24.09 | JeffM | hmmm... what version of windows should I put on this mac..... |
| 21:24.41 | blast007 | 8.1 |
| 21:25.19 | blast007 | with the extra post-windows-10 telemetry updates blocked :P |
| 21:25.31 | JeffM | I don't care about that, it's a work computer |
| 21:25.48 | blast007 | I block them on my work computers too |
| 21:26.05 | JeffM | that is managed by my domain administrator |
| 21:26.11 | JeffM | in south carolina |
| 21:29.49 | macsforme | putting Windows on a mac doesn't count as trying out Visual Studio for mac :-P |
| 21:29.58 | JeffM | boot camp |
| 21:30.01 | JeffM | it'll have both |
| 21:30.11 | JeffM | I need to test our product on it under windows too |
| 21:31.09 | JeffM | and do firmware updates on printers |
| 21:35.15 | JeffM | awww the little radion in this thing has 512 megs of ram |
| 22:02.04 | JeffM | yep... that looks a lot like visual studio |
| 22:13.44 | JeffM | and it has git integation |
| 23:21.54 | the_map | from a player on UJ: the chat text needs to be incorporated into the radar |
| 23:22.00 | the_map | I'm in favor of it |
| 23:23.18 | JeffM | what does that mean? |
| 23:23.37 | the_map | so that you can read a message and watch the radar at the same time |
| 23:23.58 | JeffM | they are side by side, you can do that now |
| 23:25.51 | JeffM | or do you mean when you make the radar so big it covers everything and turns bzflag into a 2d game? |
| 23:25.52 | *** join/#bzflag nadir (uid134094@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sphurabdalttwagj) |
| 23:29.37 | the_map | make the text wrap around the radar like the One Ring of Power |
| 23:30.16 | the_map | bonus points if it's in the language of Mordor |
| 23:39.07 | blast007 | we could eliminate a lot of problems by just turning BZFlag into a 2D turn-based RPG |
| 23:39.16 | blast007 | bet it would have a low faster build time! |
| 23:39.21 | blast007 | lot* |
| 23:40.04 | JeffM | people would not have to worry about lag |
| 23:44.28 | KaadmY | done https://github.com/kaadmy/bzcheatfree |
| 23:44.42 | KaadmY | it's a full turn-based multiplayer mmorpg |
| 23:45.00 | KaadmY | and it has no build time (python), it's infinitely fast, and you can't cheat |
| 23:45.30 | JeffM | it has a build time the first time you run it |
| 23:45.38 | JeffM | python compiles the script |
| 23:45.45 | KaadmY | still faster than bzflag |
| 23:46.41 | the_map | hey KaadmY, could you integrate the chat into the radar too please? thanks |
| 23:46.57 | KaadmY | bzcheatfree already has chat as part of the radar |
| 23:53.14 | JeffM | too bad it's not useable |
| 23:53.39 | JeffM | it's illegal to use it |
| 23:53.53 | JeffM | ahh no you make it LGPL |
| 23:56.48 | KaadmY | why does LGPL make it unuseable? |
| 23:56.53 | JeffM | it doesn't |
| 23:57.00 | the_map | KaadmY: he was correcting himself |
| 23:57.04 | JeffM | at first I did not see that you did any license |
| 23:57.08 | KaadmY | ah, ok |
| 23:57.12 | JeffM | thus I thought it was unuseable |
| 23:57.26 | JeffM | you did not tell github the license, usualy I look for the icon they put up |
| 23:57.39 | KaadmY | ah |
| 23:57.39 | JeffM | but you mentioned the license in the readme, but did not provide the text of it |
| 23:57.47 | KaadmY | i didn't bother with the full license |
| 23:57.52 | the_map | I like how he even included a .gitignore |
| 23:58.03 | JeffM | probalby default |
| 23:58.14 | JeffM | you can tell github to set up common ones when you create the repo |
| 23:58.24 | the_map | JeffM: oh, I've never used that |
| 23:58.24 | KaadmY | to get rid of ~ files from emacs |
| 23:58.36 | the_map | KaadmY: rather, to ignore them :) |
| 23:58.50 | Zehra | tries to play bzcheatfree |
| 23:59.29 | JeffM | cool, you'll give him some more credit card numbers to play with |