| 00:00.15 | Juesto | i crashed it |
| 00:00.26 | Juesto | it's just a matter of moment |
| 00:00.37 | Juesto | it took me a few retries |
| 00:01.33 | Juesto | it's something where at the same time a connection is finishing and another is begining at the same time |
| 00:02.13 | Juesto | i reproduced it, JeffM |
| 00:02.59 | Juesto | i think something isn't being done right on you guys side, no offense |
| 00:03.19 | spldart | 8o |
| 00:03.19 | blast007 | that would describe most of the code :) |
| 00:03.25 | JeffM | Oh lots of things arenât right in bzflag |
| 00:03.32 | spldart | But it works |
| 00:03.33 | JeffM | We didnât make that code |
| 00:03.35 | Juesto | we talked about this, and i know |
| 00:03.38 | blast007 | you should have seen it before 2.4.4 |
| 00:03.39 | Juesto | oh... |
| 00:03.41 | Juesto | well |
| 00:03.43 | JeffM | Itâs probably older than you |
| 00:03.57 | JeffM | You should have seen it at 1.7 |
| 00:03.59 | Juesto | at least it's something we can fix for 2.6 ;) |
| 00:04.18 | Juesto | it's as old as myself |
| 00:04.27 | JeffM | Sure, replace networking and thread it |
| 00:04.28 | Juesto | the game that is, |
| 00:04.30 | Juesto | lol |
| 00:04.44 | blast007 | Juesto: you're 25? |
| 00:04.47 | JeffM | The game is older than itâs been open source |
| 00:05.00 | Juesto | are you guys officially refusing to work on this? |
| 00:05.07 | blast007 | no |
| 00:05.09 | Juesto | blast007: one year less |
| 00:05.22 | JeffM | Itâs just not a high priority |
| 00:05.30 | blast007 | the main problem is that we can't necessarily fix it if we can't reproduce it |
| 00:05.40 | *** join/#bzflag Zehra (~Zehra@unaffiliated/zehra) |
| 00:05.45 | Juesto | I've said how to repro it |
| 00:05.45 | blast007 | we may inadvertantly fix it while doing other cleanups |
| 00:05.49 | Juesto | and im able to |
| 00:05.53 | JeffM | Itâs kind of an edge case too |
| 00:05.56 | Juesto | what version are you running |
| 00:06.02 | blast007 | 2.4.14 |
| 00:06.04 | JeffM | Nobody else has ever hit it |
| 00:06.07 | Juesto | should i try on master instead of 2.4? |
| 00:06.10 | Juesto | :d |
| 00:06.29 | Juesto | i just crashed on a clean system |
| 00:06.37 | blast007 | master isn't that much different from 2.4 right now, and there is probably nobody running a 2.5 server :) |
| 00:06.39 | Juesto | while fast it took a few tries |
| 00:06.57 | Juesto | I'm not sure if maybe just maybe |
| 00:07.00 | JeffM | Doesnât change the facts that it is not a large complaint |
| 00:07.02 | Juesto | it's a bzfs issue |
| 00:07.17 | Juesto | i know it's stupid but i looks important |
| 00:07.22 | Juesto | it* |
| 00:07.23 | JeffM | We are not going to drop everything to hunt that thing down. |
| 00:07.26 | blast007 | so when you say "when spawning and connecting simultaneously", are you meaning you're right clicking to spawn while hitting connect again? |
| 00:07.35 | JeffM | Oh like trump? |
| 00:07.36 | Juesto | I'm not saying that either |
| 00:07.47 | spldart | oh ha ha |
| 00:08.26 | JeffM | Record a video of you duping it |
| 00:08.27 | Juesto | blast007: im hitting enter, as soon it prepares world while a new connection attempt is sent it crashes, the last message in that menu is connection established |
| 00:08.45 | blast007 | so you're not trying to spawn? |
| 00:08.54 | Juesto | as soon it spawns |
| 00:08.58 | blast007 | "it"? |
| 00:09.07 | Juesto | the screen before crashing is in the early spawn |
| 00:09.09 | JeffM | You spawn by right clicking |
| 00:09.10 | blast007 | spawn means that your tank becomes "alive" |
| 00:09.19 | Juesto | It's during connection |
| 00:09.22 | Juesto | I'm not spawning |
| 00:09.28 | JeffM | That isnât spawn |
| 00:09.30 | blast007 | spawn has a specific meaning in gaming |
| 00:09.38 | Juesto | sorry for the misleading wording |
| 00:09.43 | Juesto | I know |
| 00:09.45 | JeffM | The pop when your tank appears |
| 00:09.58 | JeffM | So you are just double connecting |
| 00:10.20 | Juesto | connecting as soon the client gets connected |
| 00:10.26 | Juesto | new connection* |
| 00:10.48 | JeffM | Meh, ignore the click u till msgaccept is hit |
| 00:10.58 | JeffM | There should be a global for that already |
| 00:11.46 | blast007 | yeah, 'tis the easiest fix.. just disable the connect button while you're in the middle of connecting |
| 00:11.56 | Juesto | yeah that could be a solution, disabling the connect button while connecting |
| 00:12.07 | Juesto | i agree |
| 00:12.24 | Juesto | the leave game option shows up as soon a connection starts |
| 00:12.42 | Juesto | but sometimes its there when the client is disconnected |
| 00:13.56 | Juesto | you know? i had a very bunch of obscure issues when compiling some unrelated different code where apparently the issue is my ide setup because I got someone else to compile and it worked fine |
| 00:14.31 | Juesto | only when i got someone to compile it i figured it was my ide lol |
| 00:19.49 | *** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:19.49 | *** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.14 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19953 |
| 00:19.49 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 00:20.02 | Juesto | yea i meant running server |
| 00:20.13 | blast007 | weewooweewoo Internet Police! Freeze! *infobot is not responding* |
| 00:20.18 | Juesto | would be extremely useful to borrow popular servers configs |
| 00:20.58 | Juesto | looks at allejo |
| 00:21.51 | Juesto | oh well |
| 00:22.09 | Juesto | idk, i do certainly have some programming experience |
| 00:22.15 | Juesto | albeit poor |
| 00:22.42 | Juesto | sorry for any inconveniences caused |
| 00:24.00 | Zehra | Juesto: I can offer you configurations. |
| 00:24.23 | JeffM | whut.... |
| 00:24.30 | Zehra | Although I do not host any public servers or ever had, I've messed with BZFS a bit over time. ;) |
| 00:24.32 | JeffM | Zehra: he's just testing |
| 00:24.33 | JeffM | chill |
| 00:24.44 | Zehra | oh okay :p |
| 00:34.52 | Juesto | yeah thanks |
| 00:35.23 | Juesto | Zehra: well, popular servers configs are useful i guess |
| 00:35.35 | Juesto | some sort of benchmark you could say |
| 00:35.55 | Juesto | it's fine, not really necessary now |
| 00:36.12 | Juesto | JeffM: it's fine |
| 00:36.13 | JeffM | Juesto: what server were you connecting to? |
| 00:36.21 | spldart | *wonders if loading a proper nvidia module instead of the free driver would allow 4k youtube videos to play with less cpu usage. |
| 00:36.37 | Juesto | um, servers with people seem to be more prone, JeffM |
| 00:36.51 | Juesto | might not be true |
| 00:36.53 | JeffM | can you give me a specific example server you tried? |
| 00:36.54 | spldart | Wait... that's off topic.... Sorry. sorry |
| 00:38.13 | Juesto | removing offending download error doesn't get removed |
| 00:38.28 | JeffM | whut? |
| 00:38.46 | Juesto | it says that message but it shows up again |
| 00:38.50 | JeffM | is English not your primary language? |
| 00:39.22 | Juesto | ? |
| 00:39.27 | Juesto | why you ask |
| 00:39.57 | JeffM | sometimes it's very hard to understand what you are saying. |
| 00:40.18 | spldart | don't be offended juesto... it's just occasionally |
| 00:40.28 | spldart | Hard to pick out meaning |
| 00:40.35 | JeffM | just trying to understand what's happening |
| 00:40.41 | Juesto | I'm not offended, spldart |
| 00:41.58 | Juesto | JeffM: i just received the error message about md5 removing offending download and it just doesn't get freed |
| 00:42.06 | JeffM | umm ok |
| 00:42.17 | JeffM | and I was supposed to read your mind to pick that out? |
| 00:42.24 | Juesto | error on md5 removing offending file |
| 00:42.29 | Juesto | is not working |
| 00:42.32 | JeffM | that's not a sentance. |
| 00:43.07 | Juesto | "Error on md5. Removing offending file." does not work. |
| 00:43.14 | JeffM | umm ok |
| 00:43.18 | Juesto | the action, that is |
| 00:43.19 | JeffM | good for it? |
| 00:43.27 | JeffM | it's a rebel |
| 00:43.37 | JeffM | you arn't the boss of it... |
| 00:43.40 | spldart | rebel scum |
| 00:43.49 | JeffM | imperial pig |
| 00:44.00 | Juesto | ????? |
| 00:44.01 | spldart | X) |
| 00:44.02 | Juesto | what |
| 00:44.07 | JeffM | go burn some water famers alive |
| 00:44.13 | Juesto | Lol i had to wait |
| 00:44.18 | Juesto | it worked now |
| 00:45.22 | JeffM | bzflag is full of bugs |
| 00:45.23 | blast007 | spldart: doesn't sound like the 9800 supports 4K decoding anyway |
| 00:45.40 | spldart | OH! |
| 00:45.50 | spldart | You know... that makes sense! |
| 00:45.54 | Juesto | it just has no clear progress of it |
| 00:45.58 | spldart | Thanks |
| 00:46.02 | Juesto | that's the bug or feature |
| 00:46.13 | JeffM | all features have bugs |
| 00:46.17 | JeffM | and all bugs are features |
| 00:46.40 | blast007 | spldart: the GeForce 410M, GT 520MX, 510, GT 520, GT 610, and GT 620 were the first to introduce 4K decoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_PureVideo |
| 00:46.48 | Juesto | lol |
| 00:48.05 | spldart | So. Would running nvidia drivers allow me to not use 50% cpu at half throttle to play 1920x1080 and 33% cpu at half throttle at 720 O_o XD |
| 00:48.41 | blast007 | JeffM: we don't delete a partial map file, so on the next connect it sees the partial file, does the MD5, sees that it doesn't match, deletes it and proceeds with requesting the world file again |
| 00:49.01 | JeffM | ok |
| 00:49.07 | JeffM | that sounds sane |
| 00:49.11 | Juesto | blast007: it takes a bit for that to happen so it misleads the user |
| 00:49.28 | Juesto | in ui the user has no idea whatever it's expected behavior |
| 00:49.40 | blast007 | it *should* just delete the partial file the first time around |
| 00:49.45 | Juesto | like, there's no progress, anyone would assume they can join again |
| 00:50.15 | JeffM | like I said, it's a lan game |
| 00:50.25 | JeffM | join is assumed to be instant |
| 00:50.38 | Juesto | yes but isn't the action to remove the file local? |
| 00:50.43 | Juesto | that's what i meant |
| 00:51.01 | JeffM | sure, that was added by some yahoo who just shoved it in |
| 00:51.11 | JeffM | like all the newer features |
| 00:51.25 | blast007 | eventually the world might not even come from the game server |
| 00:51.33 | JeffM | it should not |
| 00:52.05 | blast007 | I'd love there to be some central hosting repository for worlds and assets |
| 00:52.17 | JeffM | indeed |
| 00:52.26 | Juesto | I'm from Argentina and i speak native Spanish and fluent English textually speaking, I miss all accents, my phonetic isn't great particularly in English and because of hearing aids. JeffM |
| 00:52.29 | JeffM | and a patching system to keep them up to date for end suers. |
| 00:52.39 | JeffM | Juesto: that helps me , thank you |
| 00:52.58 | spldart | :) |
| 00:52.59 | JeffM | it explains a lot |
| 00:53.07 | JeffM | and it's a reasonable explanation |
| 00:53.35 | Juesto | ;) |
| 00:53.57 | JeffM | the entire world transmit system is jankey |
| 00:54.08 | JeffM | 1k per lag cycle is lame |
| 01:26.27 | Juesto | wow |
| 01:26.49 | Juesto | that's actually a excellent idea |
| 01:27.23 | Juesto | why not porpose a mapdb site? |
| 01:27.31 | Juesto | is there similar for plugins? |
| 01:27.41 | JeffM | plugins have security issues |
| 01:27.43 | blast007 | plugins are natively compiled code |
| 01:27.47 | Juesto | how so |
| 01:27.48 | blast007 | (currently) |
| 01:27.50 | JeffM | but we've talked about it for a long while now |
| 01:28.00 | Juesto | so, scripting framework? |
| 01:28.04 | JeffM | I could put anything in a pluign, and your server would run it |
| 01:28.20 | JeffM | LUA is a posibility |
| 01:28.20 | blast007 | lua scripts were in 2.99.x |
| 01:28.20 | Juesto | yeah that's just expected isn't it |
| 01:28.27 | blast007 | though it was a fork of lua |
| 01:28.39 | Juesto | 2.99.x died years ago |
| 01:28.40 | JeffM | server owners should not bindly run code |
| 01:28.41 | Juesto | apparently |
| 01:28.46 | blast007 | AngelScript is another option, and there was something else I had found |
| 01:28.53 | JeffM | there are many options |
| 01:28.53 | Juesto | then implement signing? |
| 01:29.10 | JeffM | just limit the API the script has access to |
| 01:29.13 | blast007 | http://squirrel-lang.org/ |
| 01:29.17 | JeffM | then it's all reviewable |
| 01:29.43 | Zehra | I'm probably going to sound really stupid with this, but why not have a plug-in which does the work and limit it? |
| 01:29.44 | JeffM | there should not be THAT many servers, so distributing plugins should not be a big deal |
| 01:29.44 | blast007 | unlike Lua, Squirrel has classes |
| 01:29.54 | JeffM | maps and textures are a much bigger benifit |
| 01:30.12 | JeffM | Zehra: how do you limit a plugin? |
| 01:30.24 | Juesto | Zehra: that's basically a framework plugin sort of |
| 01:30.47 | Juesto | JeffM: you force developers to stick with a curated framework |
| 01:30.47 | JeffM | you can't prevent a C++ plugin from calling C++ stuff and getting access to the server system |
| 01:31.01 | JeffM | yes, and a langauge that allows a limited API |
| 01:31.05 | Juesto | curate it and you'll be able |
| 01:31.07 | Juesto | ag |
| 01:31.08 | Juesto | ah |
| 01:31.24 | JeffM | with C you'll always be able to call the C runtimes and access the OS |
| 01:31.28 | JeffM | from there you can do anything |
| 01:31.44 | Juesto | so replace plugin C stuff with an less exploitable api? |
| 01:31.53 | JeffM | what plugin C stuff? |
| 01:32.00 | Juesto | plugins in c* |
| 01:32.02 | Zehra | JeffM: Like maybe somewhat like the JavaScript one, except like it can only have functions related to the game modes? |
| 01:32.07 | JeffM | I can't replace std io |
| 01:32.23 | JeffM | java script is different from C, it's not native code |
| 01:32.32 | JeffM | you can controll what it does |
| 01:32.39 | Juesto | why not just implement antimalicious checks |
| 01:32.50 | JeffM | so write a virus checker in bzflag? |
| 01:32.58 | Juesto | lol |
| 01:33.05 | blast007 | cuz we know how well virus scanners work :) |
| 01:33.06 | JeffM | way too much work, easier to pick a scripting langauge that lets you do more limits |
| 01:33.30 | JeffM | that's the path you are going down, you have check native, compiled, optimized assembly for "bad stuff" |
| 01:33.34 | Juesto | just something that ensures it's not possible to control everything |
| 01:33.40 | blast007 | Squirrel looks like one of the better options |
| 01:33.51 | JeffM | scripting languages are the right solution |
| 01:33.56 | Juesto | ok |
| 01:34.04 | JeffM | there is no need to re-invent the wheel |
| 01:34.14 | JeffM | it's a silly tank game, not an operating system |
| 01:34.18 | Juesto | lol |
| 01:34.47 | JeffM | and again, plugin distrobution is not a big problem |
| 01:34.57 | JeffM | map, texture, sound, etc... sure. |
| 01:35.00 | JeffM | but not plugins |
| 01:35.12 | JeffM | solve the big issues first ;) |
| 01:35.42 | blast007 | the uses case of plugins would also change if the project starts hosting the servers |
| 01:35.47 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:35.59 | JeffM | dyanmically spawnable servers would change the entire hosting landscape |
| 01:36.12 | Juesto | hm |
| 01:36.23 | JeffM | the server list is currently a joke |
| 01:36.28 | JeffM | there are more servers than players |
| 01:36.33 | JeffM | by several times |
| 01:36.48 | JeffM | better to have a system to spin up servers as needed with maps and settings |
| 01:37.15 | JeffM | then just have the project run and admin the system that does that |
| 01:37.28 | JeffM | want a game with a specific map, pick it and get it |
| 01:37.33 | JeffM | when you are done it's shutdown |
| 01:37.40 | blast007 | then the community can focus on playing the game and making content instead of being sysadmins |
| 01:38.40 | Zehra | I'm probably being stupid, but what about players which are far away from the game servers? |
| 01:38.59 | Zehra | Like would they still be able to host a game? |
| 01:39.00 | JeffM | optimially the system would have several hosting centers around the world |
| 01:39.11 | JeffM | sure, start a server and have someone type in the address |
| 01:39.21 | JeffM | that would probably never go away, it's needed for debugging |
| 01:39.42 | Zehra | Like a globally authenticated and listed server? |
| 01:39.45 | JeffM | the best thign would be like AU players being able to spin up a server near them for instance. |
| 01:39.50 | JeffM | I would not list them |
| 01:39.59 | JeffM | I'd make them private |
| 01:40.26 | JeffM | why would you need a public server that you controll when you can just start up one on the main network? |
| 01:40.33 | JeffM | unless you just like banning people |
| 01:40.46 | JeffM | and if that's the case join the community management team |
| 01:41.18 | JeffM | if you have a server machine that is near you, and there isn't a node near you, donate that server as a node to the community management team and let instances be started on it. |
| 01:41.23 | JeffM | just like freenode. |
| 01:41.51 | Juesto | something like allejo servers |
| 01:42.04 | Zehra | How would copyright be affected exactly? |
| 01:42.19 | JeffM | what does copyright have to do with it? |
| 01:42.19 | Zehra | Like could I run a closed-source map and plug-in? |
| 01:42.27 | JeffM | not as part of the network |
| 01:42.41 | JeffM | bzflag is open source, it's services should promote open source |
| 01:42.53 | JeffM | if you want to be closed, you are closed and you don't get the benifits |
| 01:43.08 | JeffM | ANY node should be able to run ANY map |
| 01:43.28 | JeffM | if you arn't willing to share your stuff, why should the project share services with you? |
| 01:44.14 | blast007 | Zehra: Digital Ocean offers servers in New York, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Singapore, London, Frankfurt (Germany), Toronto, Bangalore (India) |
| 01:44.35 | JeffM | that should be pretty good for anything anyone needs. |
| 01:44.44 | Zehra | yay |
| 01:45.38 | Juesto | so currently bzfs can't change maps? |
| 01:45.45 | JeffM | not with out restarting |
| 01:45.46 | Zehra | I'm sort of wondering about non-commercial/no-derivative maps? |
| 01:45.48 | JeffM | LAN GAME :) |
| 01:45.49 | blast007 | run a single host in each location all the time, do matchmaking, have each member latency test to each location, use that to determine where to spawn an instance |
| 01:45.50 | Juesto | without a restart that is |
| 01:45.52 | Juesto | XD |
| 01:45.57 | Juesto | yes |
| 01:45.59 | Zehra | Like the ones from MoFo. |
| 01:46.04 | Juesto | like source engine |
| 01:46.12 | JeffM | they would probaby be convinced to change |
| 01:46.17 | Juesto | but it doesn't compare |
| 01:46.27 | Juesto | that's a more internet ready code |
| 01:46.33 | JeffM | very much so |
| 01:46.46 | JeffM | every game engine today has better networking than bzflag |
| 01:46.50 | Juesto | but 255 players max but stability suffers at 32p |
| 01:46.57 | JeffM | bzflg assumes 0 lag |
| 01:47.07 | blast007 | I wouldn't say *every* one.. |
| 01:47.13 | Juesto | That's the worst part of the network code |
| 01:47.15 | blast007 | there's been plenty of modern games with terrible netcode |
| 01:47.19 | JeffM | well the ones worth anything |
| 01:47.22 | Juesto | xd |
| 01:47.33 | Juesto | the big engines, |
| 01:47.42 | JeffM | there is no one single "worst"part of the bzflag network code |
| 01:47.48 | JeffM | it's all the worst part |
| 01:47.51 | Juesto | and some indies |
| 01:47.56 | Juesto | lol |
| 01:48.09 | Juesto | will it be eventually get fixed? |
| 01:48.18 | JeffM | nobody can see the future |
| 01:48.29 | JeffM | if someone does the work to fix it, yes |
| 01:48.33 | JeffM | if not, no |
| 01:49.30 | Juesto | I've said that eventually in the future it would get fixed slowly or faster depending on willingness |
| 01:49.37 | Juesto | someone's willingness* |
| 01:49.39 | JeffM | I have a codebase that redoes the bzfs side of it all. |
| 01:50.02 | JeffM | it's slow as hell and needs to be massivly refactored |
| 01:50.24 | Juesto | so it's going to be worse if it replaces it now |
| 01:50.41 | JeffM | it is not ready to replace |
| 01:50.55 | JeffM | it's not 100% feature complete with the other non-networking features of bzfs |
| 01:51.02 | Juesto | what were you trying to say then |
| 01:51.10 | JeffM | just that it's a big task |
| 01:51.51 | JeffM | the slowness is because the design is too radical |
| 01:51.54 | JeffM | too many threads |
| 01:52.02 | JeffM | needs to be dialed back |
| 01:54.12 | Juesto | the list doesn't even tell your ping nor locations |
| 01:54.18 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:54.24 | Juesto | unless the server says so on the name |
| 01:54.24 | JeffM | it's just a silly php page |
| 01:54.28 | JeffM | it doesn't know your ping |
| 01:54.53 | Zehra | Maybe client-side filtering could be done? |
| 01:55.02 | Juesto | and there's no location information on the server? |
| 01:55.07 | JeffM | also, what would your ping be to? |
| 01:55.09 | JeffM | the list? |
| 01:55.11 | JeffM | that's not useful |
| 01:55.15 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:55.18 | JeffM | LAN GAME! |
| 01:55.28 | JeffM | the list server was just tacked on |
| 01:55.30 | Juesto | no, not ping to the master list |
| 01:55.48 | JeffM | then ping to what? |
| 01:55.49 | blast007 | 2.99.x had lag times |
| 01:55.51 | Juesto | So, it expects the internet to be a lan party |
| 01:55.54 | blast007 | I think |
| 01:55.56 | Juesto | to the server |
| 01:56.00 | Juesto | quick pings |
| 01:56.04 | JeffM | what server? there are hundreds of them? |
| 01:56.08 | Juesto | actual sever |
| 01:56.12 | Juesto | All of those |
| 01:56.14 | JeffM | you haven't picked one yet :) |
| 01:56.19 | Juesto | at least the ones on the view |
| 01:56.23 | blast007 | yeah, I think 2.99.x pinged all of them :) |
| 01:56.25 | Juesto | You can ping anyone |
| 01:56.26 | JeffM | and yes, to BZFLag the internet is a very big LAN |
| 01:57.01 | Juesto | no, bzflag expects a lanparty but faces the internet and struggles with it because of that assumption |
| 01:57.02 | JeffM | I am literally NOT joking about it being a lan game |
| 01:57.17 | Juesto | WE GET YOU |
| 01:57.21 | JeffM | people just SHOVED it into the internet and didn't do all the other things it needs. |
| 01:57.27 | JeffM | it was not designed. |
| 01:57.29 | Juesto | WHY |
| 01:57.38 | Juesto | i don't get it |
| 01:57.43 | JeffM | because the maintainer never did that |
| 01:57.58 | Juesto | why *shoved* |
| 01:57.58 | JeffM | that's how it's culture evolved |
| 01:58.06 | Juesto | who did place it there |
| 01:58.17 | JeffM | because when the author didn't want it anymore, someone thought it'd be a good idea to add a list server |
| 01:58.24 | JeffM | so they added a list server |
| 01:58.26 | JeffM | a very simple one |
| 01:58.29 | Flash | lol ... the internet itself evolved without design |
| 01:58.30 | Juesto | rikers? |
| 01:58.31 | JeffM | and then kept playing |
| 01:58.32 | blast007 | did 1.7 add the server list? |
| 01:58.53 | JeffM | the first server list was very early and text file based. |
| 01:59.03 | Juesto | so is trikers just a "IP holder" nowadays? |
| 01:59.17 | JeffM | he is the copyright holder and techincaly the maintainer |
| 01:59.23 | Juesto | Ah |
| 01:59.28 | JeffM | but he's mostly abandoned development to "whatever" |
| 01:59.35 | Juesto | yeah that's what i just said |
| 01:59.39 | JeffM | he comments on things once in a while |
| 01:59.42 | Juesto | IP because it's foss |
| 02:00.02 | JeffM | he's never been a strong leader with any real development goals |
| 02:00.09 | Juesto | and what does he think of the direction it took |
| 02:00.24 | Juesto | and who's the core team nowadays |
| 02:00.32 | Juesto | trying to get clear some things |
| 02:00.32 | JeffM | we don't know, we rarely speak to him |
| 02:00.46 | JeffM | except when he forgets to renew the domain name |
| 02:01.04 | blast007 | I mainly talk to him when I need DNS changes |
| 02:01.09 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:01.23 | Juesto | catch him for some updates maybe? |
| 02:01.23 | JeffM | or appreantly when you post a bunch of issues with my name on them :) |
| 02:01.29 | Juesto | wat |
| 02:02.07 | JeffM | I don't think he has time or desire to be a part of bzflag development anymore |
| 02:02.28 | Juesto | i just said, about his opinion |
| 02:02.32 | Juesto | not taking part |
| 02:02.43 | Juesto | and by update i mean on his life, etc |
| 02:02.47 | Juesto | socializing |
| 02:02.47 | JeffM | we've tried to do that over the years, it's never worked out. |
| 02:03.01 | JeffM | he's just went though a divorce |
| 02:03.26 | Juesto | lol apparently blindness glitches a bit of the hud when menu is active |
| 02:03.32 | JeffM | at some point we should just ask him to transfer the copyright to the partnership colletive |
| 02:03.50 | Juesto | i mean the world doesn't fade like the rest |
| 02:03.51 | JeffM | or start a new codebase |
| 02:04.12 | Juesto | and take another 20 years to mature? |
| 02:04.24 | JeffM | no, base it of other codebases that do it better |
| 02:04.25 | Juesto | Consider bzflag forked instead |
| 02:04.34 | JeffM | there is nothing worth keeping from bzflag |
| 02:04.45 | Juesto | aesthetics |
| 02:04.46 | JeffM | every thing it does has been done better in other code |
| 02:04.49 | JeffM | that's just art |
| 02:04.53 | JeffM | 15 PNGs |
| 02:04.54 | Juesto | so, resume 2.99.x? |
| 02:05.10 | JeffM | art is the easy part of the development |
| 02:05.18 | blast007 | it'd be silly to resume 2.99.x |
| 02:05.24 | JeffM | 2.99 is not a better codebase, it's a different codebase with different problems |
| 02:05.28 | Juesto | so, rebase the game in a proper engine so to speak with? |
| 02:05.28 | blast007 | we could pull some features out of it, but not resume it |
| 02:05.36 | JeffM | and a lot of the same core problems as 2.4 |
| 02:05.52 | JeffM | by rebase you mean "replace" |
| 02:06.03 | JeffM | bzflag doesn't have it's "engine" code in one spot |
| 02:06.09 | JeffM | it can't just be swaped out |
| 02:06.26 | JeffM | it's like rebasing an old truck into a race car |
| 02:06.35 | spldart | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:06.39 | JeffM | just start over and paint it brown like your truck :) |
| 02:06.47 | Juesto | by rebase I mean start replacing components with modern versions |
| 02:06.49 | Juesto | well |
| 02:06.59 | JeffM | the compoents are seperated |
| 02:07.00 | blast007 | that's not how it would work with a real engine |
| 02:07.08 | JeffM | a real engine IS all the compopnents allready |
| 02:07.09 | Juesto | isn't exactly what are monster trucks are? |
| 02:07.18 | blast007 | with a real engine you would put stuff into it, not slowly move parts of the engine in |
| 02:07.19 | JeffM | better to take the engine, and bolt on the bzflag things you want to keep |
| 02:07.22 | Juesto | more or less |
| 02:07.32 | JeffM | a monster truck is not a race car |
| 02:07.44 | L4m3r | Monster trucks are more like big dune buggies than actual trucks anyway ;) |
| 02:07.44 | JeffM | and it's not the origonal truck |
| 02:07.50 | Juesto | no, but it's not a van either |
| 02:07.56 | Juesto | lol |
| 02:08.01 | JeffM | it's a custom engine on a custom frame with custom susension, and the shell of an old truck taped on top |
| 02:08.06 | JeffM | it'll run with out that shell |
| 02:08.20 | JeffM | it's the same idea |
| 02:08.32 | Juesto | so, aesthetics |
| 02:08.39 | JeffM | start with your high performance framework (new engine) and bolt on the thing that makes it look like the old thing. |
| 02:08.46 | blast007 | a proper engine is generally opinionated and you would have to build your game that way they want you to, which means you start over from scratch effectively |
| 02:08.51 | JeffM | that's a a video game is, |
| 02:09.14 | JeffM | all a video game is |
| 02:09.19 | Juesto | easier to say than do |
| 02:09.25 | L4m3r | I don't think bzflag is modular enough to just bolt bits of it onto a new engine |
| 02:09.26 | JeffM | so is life :) |
| 02:09.38 | JeffM | in no way is it that modular |
| 02:09.47 | JeffM | hell it doesn't even have external models for the tank |
| 02:09.51 | JeffM | the tank is hardcoded |
| 02:09.51 | Juesto | hmm |
| 02:10.04 | JeffM | literaly a bunch of calls to 'draw a triangle here" |
| 02:10.13 | Juesto | bad, the "ideal" thing is a gestalt |
| 02:10.14 | spldart | I hear Yoda's voice in the background. |
| 02:10.22 | Zehra | I'm not sure how this might sound, but maybe another game client can be made for BZFlag? |
| 02:10.22 | blast007 | we have audio code mixed with simulation mixed with network mixed with drawing |
| 02:10.30 | Juesto | source engine is a excellent example of a gestalt |
| 02:10.42 | JeffM | Zehra: sure, it woudl not solve any of the underlying lag, simulation, or protocoll problems. |
| 02:10.43 | blast007 | Zehra: that's rewriting the game :) |
| 02:11.03 | JeffM | to solve all the problems you want to replace client and server |
| 02:11.23 | JeffM | the client computes it's own death! |
| 02:11.34 | Zehra | JeffM: Maybe it could be a start? |
| 02:11.42 | JeffM | want to not die, just make GotBlowed up return false; |
| 02:11.55 | blast007 | the main problem (for me) is that most of the good game engines are proprietary - I'm not a fan of that |
| 02:11.59 | JeffM | Zehra: sure and you end up with doing a lot of work for no real belifit becuse the core is still rotten. |
| 02:12.03 | Flash | don't let JeffM discourage you ... he's a debbie downer |
| 02:12.05 | Juesto | Zehra: they go together, fix the server first then adapt the client |
| 02:12.12 | Juesto | rewrite the server |
| 02:12.26 | JeffM | Juesto: still same problem, server can't fix stuff like cheating clients |
| 02:12.32 | JeffM | server has little to no authority |
| 02:12.40 | blast007 | you can't fix the server or client separately |
| 02:12.46 | blast007 | you have to fix them together |
| 02:12.47 | JeffM | Flash: I know exactly how to solve it all, nobody likes my solutions ;) |
| 02:13.04 | Flash | and you don't like anyone elses :P |
| 02:13.05 | blast007 | JeffM: Unity? :) |
| 02:13.12 | Juesto | blast007: and yes, sucks that foss isn't always great quality as proprietary is |
| 02:13.14 | JeffM | that is one, there are many other options. |
| 02:13.31 | Flash | the double-edged sword of FOSS |
| 02:13.39 | Flash | it's free, but you get what you pay for |
| 02:13.42 | Juesto | unreal engine is partially open |
| 02:13.48 | JeffM | I am baffled that there isn't a good FOSS game networking /simulation framework |
| 02:13.54 | Juesto | unity remains closed |
| 02:13.54 | JeffM | just a lot of physics engines |
| 02:14.02 | Juesto | See |
| 02:14.15 | blast007 | the source for Unreal is available if you agree to their NDA or EULA, but it's not open-source |
| 02:14.20 | Juesto | ^ |
| 02:14.26 | Juesto | freeware then |
| 02:14.35 | JeffM | then unity is freeware by that metric |
| 02:14.37 | blast007 | I don't call it freeware either |
| 02:14.43 | Juesto | eula not nda |
| 02:14.50 | Juesto | but who cares |
| 02:15.08 | JeffM | several people on this project care about the engine being open source for some reason |
| 02:15.10 | blast007 | iirc, both Unity and Unreal have restrictions on profits for their "free" versions |
| 02:15.23 | JeffM | even though they are fine releasing on the closed source windows and OSX patforms. |
| 02:15.29 | Juesto | unreal is way more flexible as of recent |
| 02:15.35 | Juesto | lol |
| 02:15.41 | JeffM | blast007: you make half a million dollars, you can affort to buy a copy ;) |
| 02:15.48 | Juesto | what |
| 02:15.48 | blast007 | :) |
| 02:15.58 | JeffM | or maybe it's 200k |
| 02:16.04 | JeffM | but still, bzflag woudl NEVER hit that revenue |
| 02:16.09 | JeffM | and if it did, it could afford it |
| 02:16.23 | Juesto | perfect for using unreal then xd |
| 02:16.36 | JeffM | unreal has no networking backend |
| 02:16.42 | Juesto | but then the foss community might be against here |
| 02:16.49 | Juesto | it doesn't!? |
| 02:16.51 | JeffM | if you just want rendering, there are MANY fully open source rendering engines |
| 02:16.52 | JeffM | nope |
| 02:17.00 | Juesto | but it can run networked |
| 02:17.11 | JeffM | sure, by writing networking code yourself |
| 02:17.17 | Juesto | oh :/ |
| 02:17.29 | Juesto | anyways, how about enet |
| 02:17.29 | JeffM | and if you do that, waht's the advantage of unreal over other free render engines? |
| 02:17.31 | Zehra | Isn't this what BZFlag already does? |
| 02:17.33 | blast007 | "Generally, you are obligated to pay to Epic 5% of all gross revenue after the first $3,000 per game or application per calendar quarter, regardless of what company collects the revenue." |
| 02:17.41 | JeffM | enet is not well maintained |
| 02:17.54 | JeffM | wow, that is a very crappy deal from epic |
| 02:18.18 | JeffM | unity is "buy this subscription for 20$ a month if you make over 200k a year" |
| 02:18.34 | blast007 | https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/faq#release |
| 02:18.40 | JeffM | and if you make more than a million it's like 75$ |
| 02:18.43 | Juesto | it works fine for something like re-volt (rvgl) |
| 02:19.02 | Juesto | how about cryengine |
| 02:19.15 | JeffM | use the amazon one, it has clouds! |
| 02:19.21 | Juesto | lol |
| 02:19.27 | blast007 | isn't the amazon one Unreal? |
| 02:19.31 | JeffM | no |
| 02:19.44 | JeffM | it's a fork of cryengine |
| 02:20.06 | blast007 | ah |
| 02:20.06 | Juesto | huh |
| 02:20.07 | JeffM | it's what Star Citizen changed to |
| 02:20.13 | Juesto | interesting |
| 02:20.42 | blast007 | and then we can be tied to another company I hate ;) |
| 02:21.23 | JeffM | bzflag could be totaly implemented in the quake2 engine as a mod |
| 02:21.48 | JeffM | the gameplay and assets just arn't that complex |
| 02:21.54 | Juesto | atm i don't have my "good" computer around atm so I'll try bzfs and all that later |
| 02:22.05 | Juesto | quake 3 is easier |
| 02:22.30 | JeffM | sure, that'd work too |
| 02:23.49 | JeffM | there are no real "new" problems that need to be solved to implement a bzflag. everything it needs is in hundreds of games/engines. |
| 02:24.08 | JeffM | it's a very simple first person shooter |
| 02:24.27 | JeffM | it doesn't even need complex physics |
| 02:24.33 | Juesto | sometimes i wish it was with a rotation canon |
| 02:24.34 | blast007 | engines, foss or others, would impose limits on how we do things, though |
| 02:24.44 | Juesto | and optional third person |
| 02:24.55 | JeffM | ahh so Juesto wants to cheat :) |
| 02:24.59 | Juesto | no |
| 02:25.07 | Juesto | optional gameplay |
| 02:25.11 | JeffM | get a wider view of the action and see ST tanks behind him |
| 02:25.20 | JeffM | the view is where it is for a gameplay reason |
| 02:25.22 | Juesto | not that wide |
| 02:25.30 | JeffM | it lets you see behind you |
| 02:25.31 | blast007 | third person would be a pretty big game changer |
| 02:25.37 | Juesto | and it could be a top view |
| 02:25.42 | JeffM | that's worse |
| 02:25.52 | JeffM | that lets you see who's behind you |
| 02:25.59 | blast007 | http://static.bzexcess.com/BattleZune/ |
| 02:26.00 | Juesto | no, it's exactly like the radar |
| 02:26.02 | JeffM | several flags are designed around the visibility |
| 02:26.13 | JeffM | no a ST tank doesn't show on radar |
| 02:26.18 | JeffM | but does out the window |
| 02:26.24 | Juesto | xD |
| 02:26.30 | Juesto | and viceversa |
| 02:26.34 | JeffM | you move the camera, you can now see the window has moved, and can thus see more ST tanks |
| 02:26.48 | Juesto | and? that's expected |
| 02:27.02 | blast007 | I don't see that changing |
| 02:27.12 | JeffM | yes, the limited cone of view is one of the advantages that ST grants |
| 02:27.24 | Juesto | *optional* |
| 02:27.29 | JeffM | the idea is you use ST to sneak up behind someone |
| 02:27.35 | blast007 | there are a few core gameplay design rules we have, and first person view is one of them |
| 02:27.44 | JeffM | optional is worse, it makes it inconsitent |
| 02:27.51 | JeffM | you can sneak up on some, but not others |
| 02:27.59 | JeffM | EVERYONE will turn it on to get the gameplay advantage |
| 02:28.11 | blast007 | yeah... I think we've made the game inconsistent enough with the BZDB vars :) |
| 02:28.24 | JeffM | and badly designed flags like genocide |
| 02:28.35 | Juesto | well a rotating canon can be a interesting thing only a minority will like |
| 02:28.43 | Juesto | it would confuse players |
| 02:28.49 | JeffM | that chagnes the entire input system |
| 02:28.59 | Juesto | especially those with the tank visibility disabled |
| 02:29.02 | JeffM | gives mouse players an advantage |
| 02:29.20 | Juesto | not if you make it double on keyboard |
| 02:29.27 | Juesto | well whatever |
| 02:29.30 | JeffM | keyboard can't get the same granularity |
| 02:29.37 | JeffM | mouse users will always have better aim |
| 02:29.39 | Juesto | movement already gives mouse advantages |
| 02:29.55 | JeffM | so you want to give mouse users MORE advantate? |
| 02:29.55 | Zehra | Would reducing the amount of flags be a future goal in BZFlag? |
| 02:30.10 | JeffM | Zehra: I want to reduce the flag count down to 4 |
| 02:30.16 | JeffM | red, green, blue, purple |
| 02:30.17 | Juesto | then keep movement for mouse advantage and give the cannon a keyboard only movement |
| 02:30.26 | Zehra | :p |
| 02:30.32 | JeffM | Juesto: that's janky |
| 02:30.36 | JeffM | Zehra: I am not joking |
| 02:30.37 | Juesto | exactly |
| 02:30.44 | JeffM | powerups should be powerups, not flags |
| 02:30.56 | JeffM | boxes on the ground that give you a powerup |
| 02:30.57 | blast007 | replace them with crates |
| 02:30.59 | Juesto | why they became flags |
| 02:31.11 | JeffM | Chris liked flags I guess.... |
| 02:31.13 | blast007 | ooo... with little parachuts they drop in with |
| 02:31.18 | Juesto | who did most of development? |
| 02:31.18 | blast007 | parachutes* |
| 02:31.22 | JeffM | Chris |
| 02:31.27 | JeffM | blast007: exactly |
| 02:31.28 | Juesto | who? |
| 02:31.31 | JeffM | Chris |
| 02:31.33 | JeffM | the author |
| 02:31.46 | JeffM | the guy who wrote bzflag |
| 02:31.58 | Zehra | Didn't super flags come from someone cheating in game? |
| 02:32.06 | Zehra | Or at least the idea of them. :p |
| 02:32.10 | JeffM | probably |
| 02:32.11 | Juesto | is he around? |
| 02:32.17 | JeffM | no, he works at pixar now |
| 02:32.44 | JeffM | Zehra: yet he never tried to fix the cheating part..... |
| 02:32.54 | Juesto | lol |
| 02:33.00 | Juesto | i would fix everything |
| 02:33.11 | Zehra | JeffM: It explains a lot. :p |
| 02:33.14 | JeffM | he was going to sell bzflag in boxes at game stores |
| 02:33.17 | Juesto | but I'm more a idea sparker than a code writer |
| 02:33.33 | Juesto | with a programmer mind-ish |
| 02:33.44 | Juesto | developer mindset |
| 02:33.46 | JeffM | you may want to read a ton of IRC logs then. nearly everything you have said we have discussed for years. |
| 02:33.56 | Juesto | ah fuck me |
| 02:34.04 | JeffM | please don't curse here |
| 02:34.10 | Juesto | oops |
| 02:34.23 | Juesto | I'm not perfect either |
| 02:34.31 | JeffM | no worries, you didn't know |
| 02:34.41 | Juesto | i guess a lot of exaggerating to feel good or something |
| 02:34.53 | Juesto | hm kinda recall |
| 02:34.58 | Juesto | tbh |
| 02:35.04 | JeffM | shhhhhhh ;) |
| 02:35.12 | Juesto | oh well |
| 02:35.17 | Zehra | Juesto: Check the GSoC years for the developments. :p |
| 02:35.41 | Juesto | oh? |
| 02:35.50 | Zehra | I mean, like on the ideas for some of the developments. |
| 02:35.56 | JeffM | they are full of a lot of off the wall ideas |
| 02:36.01 | JeffM | big projects |
| 02:36.07 | JeffM | that never got done |
| 02:36.16 | JeffM | that should not be done untill the underlying problems are fixed |
| 02:36.38 | JeffM | well except the map editor, that should be done |
| 02:37.27 | Zehra | This sort of reminds me of some API functions I checked in bzfsAPI.h... |
| 02:37.48 | Zehra | Like for adding boxes and related, it seems almost like for creating a world or something. |
| 02:38.24 | Juesto | i recall some dumb stuff on sourceforge lol |
| 02:38.37 | JeffM | yeah, I added the world API so that someone coudl build cities in a plugin |
| 02:39.07 | Juesto | i was in the mailist but not so long ago |
| 02:39.15 | Zehra | Did anyone manage to build at least a demo of it? |
| 02:39.23 | JeffM | yeah it worked |
| 02:39.30 | JeffM | the maps were SUPER slow |
| 02:39.42 | JeffM | because bzflags rendering code is so bad |
| 02:39.53 | Zehra | eek |
| 02:40.17 | *** join/#bzflag bertman (~bert@unaffiliated/bertman) |
| 02:40.34 | Zehra | Were the worlds blank when building a world through the API? |
| 02:40.59 | JeffM | what do you mean? |
| 02:42.35 | Zehra | I'm having a bit of trouble with the right words, but did the worlds start as randomly generated ones, only to have objects added in? |
| 02:42.49 | blast007 | probably empty |
| 02:42.50 | JeffM | no, it was not a random world |
| 02:42.59 | JeffM | yeah it had no objects and it added objects to it |
| 02:43.12 | Zehra | oh, okay |
| 02:43.24 | Zehra | gets an idea |
| 02:43.56 | blast007 | gets to cover |
| 02:44.20 | JeffM | has a dream https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/OeT1xVLU/ |
| 02:45.34 | Zehra | JeffM: Is this BZFlag or a new BZFlag themed game? :) |
| 02:45.46 | JeffM | it's a rendering |
| 02:45.53 | JeffM | I have a map idea |
| 02:46.02 | JeffM | it may not be possible in the current engine |
| 02:47.03 | Zehra | What might it happen to be, if I might ask? |
| 02:47.24 | JeffM | huh? |
| 02:47.39 | blast007 | he's the map idea, I would imagine |
| 02:47.49 | blast007 | asking about the* |
| 02:47.58 | JeffM | it's a map |
| 02:48.04 | blast007 | I think my brain took a nap there for a second... |
| 02:48.05 | JeffM | with a trench |
| 02:48.10 | JeffM | and 2 bases |
| 02:49.11 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:50.51 | Zehra | thinks of ideas which they would like to see in BZFlag 2.6 |
| 02:51.46 | JeffM | fish missile! |
| 02:52.10 | JeffM | misses the fish missile |
| 02:53.18 | Zehra | ShotChanging, teleporting without teleporters, rabbit hunt implemented as a plug-in, forced-spawning, team-variables..etc |
| 02:53.41 | JeffM | I don't think you heard me.. |
| 02:53.44 | JeffM | fish... |
| 02:53.47 | JeffM | missile! |
| 02:54.02 | JeffM | what is a "team variable"? |
| 02:54.46 | Zehra | I'm thinking it would be like able to set a variable, but for only a specific team. |
| 02:54.56 | JeffM | oh, per player attributes |
| 02:55.05 | JeffM | for physics features |
| 02:55.09 | JeffM | or gameplay feature |
| 02:55.10 | JeffM | sure |
| 02:55.21 | JeffM | per player attribute multiplyers |
| 02:55.55 | Zehra | "The red team has faster tanks for 30 seconds" |
| 02:56.06 | JeffM | a team is just a set of players |
| 02:56.25 | JeffM | that's just a matter of identifying the attributes |
| 02:56.25 | blast007 | I would *like* to remove a lot of BZDB variables for 2.6 :P |
| 02:56.35 | JeffM | yeah I'd turn them into something else |
| 02:56.39 | Zehra | "Rogues got hit by slowdown missile - All rogues at half speed for 30 seconds" |
| 02:57.11 | Zehra | blast007: Maybe this could be done with a slight flag reduction? |
| 02:57.18 | blast007 | wut |
| 02:57.28 | JeffM | the base physics data should be global to the server, then each tank has a floating point factor that it's multiplied by before the client applies it |
| 02:57.35 | blast007 | what does flags have to do with BZDB variables? |
| 02:57.56 | JeffM | so if gravity is -10, all tanks default to gravity factor of 1, you want one to have low G, give it a factor of 0.5 |
| 02:58.08 | Zehra | Like high speed, quick turn and agility each have their own BZDB variables, if I'm not mistaken. (I usually am.) |
| 02:58.15 | JeffM | so if base gravity is set to -20, the low G guy is still 50% |
| 02:58.25 | JeffM | the have multipyers |
| 02:58.55 | JeffM | I'd split flags from vars as much as possible |
| 02:59.04 | JeffM | vars are super overused |
| 02:59.17 | blast007 | Zehra: those aren't the vars I'm talking about |
| 02:59.29 | blast007 | there's a lot of silly ones |
| 02:59.31 | JeffM | I think he means like "tank speed", "gravity" |
| 02:59.42 | JeffM | "rain is frogs" |
| 02:59.48 | blast007 | oh that has to stay |
| 02:59.54 | JeffM | make it a pluign ;) |
| 02:59.56 | blast007 | and snow |
| 03:00.06 | blast007 | snow is how I used to figure out who had garbage computers |
| 03:00.11 | JeffM | heh |
| 03:00.14 | blast007 | "can you turn the snow off it's killing me FPS" |
| 03:00.17 | blast007 | my* |
| 03:00.18 | JeffM | bye bye low FPS people |
| 03:00.20 | Juesto | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:00.46 | JeffM | yeah the weather renderer is not optimized |
| 03:00.55 | JeffM | it would be prefect for a vertex shader |
| 03:00.57 | Juesto | what's up with the mess of bzdb |
| 03:01.06 | Zehra | rofl, I can imagine how it was with snow. |
| 03:01.09 | JeffM | people just keep adding stuff to it |
| 03:01.16 | JeffM | poor mans config system. |
| 03:01.28 | Juesto | yeah those "fancy" maps are just unplayable on a computer like mine |
| 03:01.52 | Juesto | at least the most played servers aren't fancy maps |
| 03:02.11 | Juesto | question |
| 03:02.15 | blast007 | Juesto: I can probably get a higher FPS running BZ in a VM on my Windows dev PC :P |
| 03:02.29 | Juesto | can bzadmin connect anywhere without being admin? |
| 03:02.35 | blast007 | at least if I'm not running it at 2560x1440 resolution |
| 03:02.36 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:02.40 | JeffM | it's just a text only client |
| 03:02.45 | Juesto | and why there's so many bzf idlers |
| 03:02.47 | blast007 | it can, until we remove it for 2.6 ;) |
| 03:02.48 | Juesto | bza* |
| 03:02.52 | JeffM | the admin is not how it connects, just what it's commonly used for |
| 03:02.56 | Juesto | why remove? |
| 03:02.58 | JeffM | yeah bzadmin is an abomination |
| 03:03.00 | Zehra | And if you are not banned too. ;) |
| 03:03.01 | blast007 | cuz it's terrible |
| 03:03.01 | Juesto | why |
| 03:03.06 | Juesto | why it exists |
| 03:03.10 | JeffM | the server should admin itself |
| 03:03.12 | blast007 | because someone made it |
| 03:03.18 | JeffM | with backend stuff |
| 03:03.24 | Juesto | it's great when you want to chat |
| 03:03.26 | blast007 | it's not really useful for administration |
| 03:03.32 | Zehra | It was a tarball sent in as a patch... |
| 03:03.37 | JeffM | then the system needs to support external chat |
| 03:03.49 | Juesto | lame, so it was a quick shit cli client hack |
| 03:03.52 | blast007 | just embed Matrix |
| 03:03.56 | JeffM | langauge please, but yeah |
| 03:04.10 | Juesto | rename bzadmin to bzfcli |
| 03:04.15 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:04.21 | Zehra | Juesto: I think there is a script for bz2irc.... |
| 03:04.30 | Zehra | Or something like that... |
| 03:04.32 | JeffM | there is no need for us to publish a text only client. |
| 03:04.41 | Juesto | no, not talking about bridges |
| 03:04.47 | JeffM | chat should be chat, admin should be admin |
| 03:05.10 | JeffM | I"m a fan of the webadmin, but I underatand it's issues and see why blast007 won't want to go that way |
| 03:05.14 | Juesto | just that bzadmin is excellent as a cli client to get updated with bzf buddies when you can't play |
| 03:05.22 | JeffM | probalby should remove http once the map transpo is sorted out. |
| 03:05.28 | Juesto | just for chatting |
| 03:05.41 | Juesto | i wasn't proposing a bridge |
| 03:05.50 | JeffM | then write a chat service that uses SSPs and a real chat back-end |
| 03:05.56 | blast007 | in the end, chat wouldn't even need to be part of the game server |
| 03:06.02 | JeffM | indeed |
| 03:06.09 | JeffM | it can run sideband to it |
| 03:06.31 | Juesto | why advising against builtin chat |
| 03:06.45 | JeffM | built into the client sure |
| 03:06.55 | blast007 | Juesto: because we could have global chat too |
| 03:06.56 | JeffM | it doesn't need to be part of the game server |
| 03:07.00 | JeffM | it can be a sperate chat server |
| 03:07.04 | JeffM | yeah so you get cross server chat |
| 03:07.11 | JeffM | and have other clients connect, etc.. |
| 03:07.14 | JeffM | chat is chat |
| 03:07.15 | blast007 | join a server, it creates a room for your team and for that server |
| 03:07.16 | JeffM | game is game |
| 03:07.34 | JeffM | what is the advantage of sending the chat text to the game server? |
| 03:07.38 | blast007 | friend not in your server could message you |
| 03:08.03 | JeffM | facebook could message you! |
| 03:08.10 | Juesto | implement pm notification in game |
| 03:08.21 | blast007 | we have that |
| 03:08.22 | Juesto | but better yet, add login f |
| 03:08.27 | Juesto | game wide |
| 03:08.44 | JeffM | but that's the idea, more services once the chat is not part of the actual game part |
| 03:08.50 | blast007 | but yeah, lots of things could be more integrated |
| 03:08.52 | Juesto | blast007: not when not connected to a server |
| 03:09.13 | JeffM | if chat was seperate client could connect to a chat lobby with out being conencted to a game server |
| 03:09.17 | blast007 | imagine if we actually had a MOTD that you could read, instead of how it's hidden *behind* the menu background currently :) |
| 03:09.17 | Juesto | so implement it on the forums portion? |
| 03:09.31 | JeffM | on top of phpbb? nope |
| 03:09.40 | blast007 | eventually phpBB may go away |
| 03:09.41 | Zehra | Would the BZFlag project run global chat or a third party? |
| 03:09.43 | JeffM | good |
| 03:09.44 | Juesto | Make the menu not show up in first place |
| 03:09.49 | JeffM | Zehra: the project |
| 03:09.56 | JeffM | what thrid party would do it? |
| 03:10.31 | blast007 | heck, we could go end-to-end encrypted chat: https://matrix.org/blog/home/ |
| 03:10.33 | Zehra | I'm not sure, maybe discord or something. |
| 03:10.39 | Juesto | irc |
| 03:10.49 | Juesto | lol it would become annoying actually |
| 03:10.56 | Zehra | That was suggested a while back... |
| 03:10.56 | JeffM | I belive that is against the TOS |
| 03:11.05 | Juesto | what |
| 03:11.11 | Zehra | Like to use IRC for global chat. :p |
| 03:11.24 | Juesto | bridging is against which tos |
| 03:11.24 | JeffM | IRC is a crap protocol |
| 03:11.31 | Zehra | But that was suggested years ago. :p |
| 03:11.40 | JeffM | oh I had it implmented years ago |
| 03:11.49 | blast007 | and running an IRC network is a pain |
| 03:12.02 | JeffM | IRC is an old system |
| 03:12.05 | JeffM | it's fancy tellnet |
| 03:12.07 | Juesto | what if the bzfs is irc connectable |
| 03:12.19 | JeffM | it was with my plugin |
| 03:12.26 | Juesto | natively |
| 03:12.27 | JeffM | it made a room for each server |
| 03:12.27 | blast007 | IRC isn't a good option |
| 03:12.48 | blast007 | something like XMPP or Matrix is a better option |
| 03:12.51 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:13.29 | JeffM | i wrote libIRC for a reason :) |
| 03:13.44 | Juesto | which |
| 03:13.54 | JeffM | to connect bzflag to IRC |
| 03:14.12 | Juesto | until to what point did chris work on bzf |
| 03:14.21 | JeffM | when it went open source |
| 03:14.24 | blast007 | Matrix is JSON over HTTP |
| 03:14.31 | JeffM | he open sourced it when he didn't want to work on it anymore |
| 03:14.35 | blast007 | and WebRTC |
| 03:14.47 | blast007 | does text and voice communication |
| 03:16.17 | Juesto | why was win bzf choosen to not have stdout |
| 03:16.26 | JeffM | on the client? |
| 03:16.29 | JeffM | or on the server? |
| 03:16.58 | Juesto | win client |
| 03:17.16 | JeffM | on the client because I didn't want a stupid black box poping up when you lanuched, and the client should not output to stdout during normal play |
| 03:17.22 | JeffM | and for debugging, use the debugger |
| 03:17.26 | Juesto | bzfs and bza are cli with stdout like Linux |
| 03:17.39 | JeffM | and the client is a real windows app |
| 03:17.40 | Juesto | debugger shows stdout |
| 03:17.43 | JeffM | not a command line port |
| 03:17.50 | Juesto | didn't say that |
| 03:17.53 | JeffM | it does NOw, it used to not |
| 03:17.59 | Juesto | it could have stdout |
| 03:18.06 | JeffM | it didn't in visual stdio 4 |
| 03:18.17 | blast007 | it could have a lot of things |
| 03:18.23 | JeffM | well it wasn't studio then |
| 03:18.27 | JeffM | Visual C++ |
| 03:18.34 | Juesto | linux version does stdout and it's a graphical app |
| 03:18.42 | JeffM | I did the inital windows port, and there wasn't a need for it |
| 03:18.46 | JeffM | still really isn't |
| 03:18.54 | blast007 | but on linux you don't generally run from the command line, you start it from a menu item |
| 03:19.01 | blast007 | so you still don't see it |
| 03:19.02 | JeffM | if the linux version jumpped off a bridge the windows version should too? |
| 03:19.06 | Juesto | and it hides the terminal |
| 03:19.17 | JeffM | it just doesn't |
| 03:19.21 | blast007 | JeffM: yes, if we trying to maintain compatibility ;) |
| 03:19.25 | Juesto | Windows version can do the same it's what blender does |
| 03:19.27 | blast007 | we're* |
| 03:19.40 | JeffM | don't get me started on the crapshow that is the blender GUI |
| 03:19.55 | blast007 | this is a really silly thing to be discussing |
| 03:19.58 | Juesto | and you can have a stout without any console window, you can read it in a debugger |
| 03:20.00 | JeffM | blast007: then linux should conform to windows, it's the majority |
| 03:20.05 | blast007 | :) |
| 03:20.27 | blast007 | fun fact - there's more visits to the main website from Linux than from macOS |
| 03:20.28 | JeffM | it should write it to a file on windows |
| 03:20.35 | JeffM | for the rare rare cases where it writes anything |
| 03:20.51 | Juesto | and windows, blast007 ? as for visits |
| 03:20.51 | JeffM | the 2nd place minority is STILL a minority |
| 03:21.18 | blast007 | iirc, Windows is about 50%, Linux is 25%, and macOS was like 18% |
| 03:21.20 | JeffM | Juesto: windows is about 50% of the client |
| 03:21.39 | Juesto | JeffM: -echo pipes to a stdout but it's just a copy of the ingame console |
| 03:21.45 | JeffM | ahh |
| 03:22.03 | Juesto | not real stdout like linux |
| 03:22.09 | JeffM | umm ok |
| 03:22.16 | blast007 | (though non-IE browsers that send a Do Not Track header or anybody with tracking protection / blockers does not get recorded) |
| 03:22.22 | JeffM | good for it, it's not like linux |
| 03:22.41 | Juesto | blast007: that thing is recorded just censored |
| 03:22.49 | blast007 | what? |
| 03:23.05 | Juesto | do not track header from browsers |
| 03:23.12 | Juesto | is exploited by some |
| 03:23.30 | blast007 | are you implying you know more about the analytics platform that I run than I do? |
| 03:23.46 | Juesto | what, that's your job? |
| 03:23.54 | blast007 | no.. |
| 03:24.00 | Juesto | ????? |
| 03:24.12 | Juesto | no I'm not implying anything |
| 03:24.30 | blast007 | I'm saying that non-IE browsers that send DNT or anyone with tracking protection does not get recorded by the analytics platform I run |
| 03:24.51 | Juesto | ah, honest analytics |
| 03:24.57 | Juesto | honoring dnt |
| 03:24.59 | Juesto | :) |
| 03:25.22 | blast007 | Matomo, formerly Piwik |
| 03:25.36 | blast007 | run myself |
| 03:45.38 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@bzflag/developer/Blast) |
| 04:34.34 | Juesto | hey, how i could understand all the groups on forums |
| 04:53.21 | JeffM | What do you mean? |
| 04:57.28 | Juesto | as in, most of them seem to be server related? |
| 04:57.32 | Juesto | actually nvm |
| 04:57.53 | Juesto | i wanted to ask about how to set up global login and forum linking on bzfs |
| 04:58.20 | Flash | I'd like to use PKI :) |
| 05:12.11 | Juesto | is it possible to get a username change? |
| 05:12.36 | Juesto | just wondering not really considering changing right now |
| 05:37.30 | *** join/#bzflag onomatopeya (~asdlakjsd@190.8.32.177) |
| 06:15.03 | Juesto | done |
| 07:02.28 | *** join/#bzflag onomatopeya (~asdlakjsd@190.8.32.177) |
| 11:19.18 | blast007 | Juesto: you can change your username |
| 11:24.56 | Juesto | yeah got it thanks anyway |
| 11:49.35 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
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| 15:16.40 | spldart | Jimene christmas I'm spanning monitors again when i start BZFlag :( |
| 15:39.34 | Juesto | who's the group contact of this project? |
| 15:40.00 | Juesto | which cloaks are available? |
| 16:33.09 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
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| 16:34.47 | spldart | So much for installing an nvidia driver. Even the non-free one. All kinds of broken dependencies. At least I been through corrupted x configs before. Everything back on Nouveau again. |
| 16:35.52 | spldart | Heh. Doesn't help when Comcast fails for no reason in the middle of everything. Tethering off phone ftew |
| 16:36.17 | *** mode/#bzflag [-v short_circuit] by ChanServ |
| 16:41.41 | blast007 | it's comcrapstic! |
| 16:56.23 | short_circuit | until next time. another attempt at nvidia |
| 16:59.01 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
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| 16:59.59 | spldart | ooOOoo. I think I'm on nvidias driver now. How to check beyond lsmod | grep nvidia |
| 17:00.00 | spldart | ? |
| 17:01.14 | spldart | ACK! BZflag client still spanning my monitors ;;;( |
| 17:01.27 | Juesto | spldart: lspci -k |
| 17:01.49 | Juesto | as for the monitor spanning |
| 17:02.02 | Juesto | wasn't there a command line related |
| 17:02.59 | Juesto | hmm actually nvm that commandline i mention is about expanding the viewports in a vr style but with a 4 monitor spanning config |
| 17:03.59 | spldart | On the plus side every video I fast forward through does so with no delay. Just instant. |
| 17:06.15 | spldart | cpu usage didn't go down though :( |
| 18:10.02 | Juesto | why not something like adding the dependencies to the vs projects and thus dependency trees while keeping everything separate |
| 18:11.09 | blast007 | because then we have to put the dependency sources in the repository again |
| 18:11.24 | blast007 | what possible advantage does that provide? |
| 18:11.50 | Juesto | no, without putting it |
| 18:12.10 | Juesto | and expecting users to have a dependency folder in there |
| 18:12.34 | Juesto | blast007: means you're pointing to it in the solution but not actually shipping or merging everything |
| 18:12.48 | Juesto | plus most projects are for old vs |
| 18:13.03 | Juesto | 2010 and 2015 at most |
| 18:13.14 | blast007 | not seeing any advantage |
| 18:13.46 | Juesto | the advantage is that the dependency tree is in the solution file |
| 18:14.02 | blast007 | that's not an advantage |
| 18:14.12 | Juesto | it is at compile time |
| 18:14.17 | blast007 | no, it's not |
| 18:14.25 | blast007 | because now I have MORE to compile |
| 18:14.44 | blast007 | please just drop it. it's not going to happen. |
| 18:14.48 | Juesto | you can exclude it |
| 18:16.00 | kierra | juesto, mejor dejar de discutir este asunto |
| 18:16.36 | Juesto | kierra: no hace falta en Español |
| 18:16.51 | Juesto | fine |
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| 19:09.10 | blast007 | trying to think... would we have any cases in BZFlag where a sound source needs to move around while the sound is playing? I'm thinking most of our sound sources won't move as they're just things like a shot being fired or a tank exploding. |
| 19:09.44 | blast007 | and even things like the hunt sound probably don't *move*, it just starts playing each loop of that audio at the new location |
| 19:10.19 | Juesto | hm well the tank moves when dying |
| 19:10.32 | blast007 | but I don't think the sound does |
| 19:10.43 | Juesto | yes there should be such 3D sense |
| 19:10.44 | JeffM | The gm wosh and any possible engine sounds |
| 19:11.08 | Juesto | oh, only those do? |
| 19:11.11 | blast007 | the woosh is just shot sound from the tank that fired it, not a constant noise |
| 19:11.41 | JeffM | Fish missile had a rocket sound attached to the missile |
| 19:11.59 | Juesto | when it targets you it does have some kind of alarm ish sound |
| 19:12.02 | JeffM | It should be something open AL can do |
| 19:12.16 | blast007 | it can, it just complicates thing :) |
| 19:12.23 | blast007 | things* |
| 19:14.18 | blast007 | if we're needing to tie an audio source to a game object, then we'd need some way for that game object to update the position/velocity of the sound source, but also know when the sound source is done playing (if it's not looping) and release it so that something else can use that source |
| 19:14.25 | Juesto | tell spldart that he should be using -view stereo if that does what i this it does |
| 19:14.48 | JeffM | Yes youâd want a sound manager |
| 19:15.23 | Juesto | what i get sound unavailable on compiled release build |
| 19:15.24 | blast007 | with OpenAL, you allocate a number of sources/buffers. buffers hold audio data, sources are used to play a buffer at a location/velocity (along with other settings like loop, pitch, gain). |
| 19:15.43 | Juesto | what!?* |
| 19:15.49 | blast007 | Juesto: that's not what spldart wants. he wants the game to render to a single monitor, not stretched across two monitors. |
| 19:16.06 | Juesto | oh, no idea then |
| 19:16.30 | blast007 | it's something with the nvidia drivers treating it as a single large display instead of two separate displays |
| 19:16.41 | Juesto | it would partially solve his issue with being stretched |
| 19:16.47 | blast007 | no, it wouldn't |
| 19:16.58 | blast007 | -view stereo is for 3D glasses :) |
| 19:17.07 | Juesto | i mean it's treating it as a single display |
| 19:17.13 | Juesto | it's called extending |
| 19:17.16 | Juesto | it's expected |
| 19:17.23 | blast007 | that's not what -view stereo does |
| 19:17.34 | Juesto | oh |
| 19:17.38 | Juesto | and stacked? |
| 19:17.54 | blast007 | pretty sure -view stereo makes it look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_3D#/media/File:3D_dusk_on_Desert.jpg |
| 19:18.16 | blast007 | stacked will make two very wide and short views, probably |
| 19:18.30 | blast007 | again, it would still be across two displays |
| 19:18.31 | Juesto | blast007: there's -view anaglyph |
| 19:18.45 | blast007 | hmm, probably |
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| 19:19.14 | blast007 | -view stereo is the horizontal offset then? |
| 19:19.27 | Juesto | it said unable to initiate opengl context when i tried to use it |
| 19:19.41 | Juesto | stacked is a horizontal split screen mirror |
| 19:19.48 | Juesto | copy* |
| 19:19.48 | blast007 | yeah, stereo didn't work for me |
| 19:20.06 | Juesto | hmm |
| 19:20.38 | blast007 | the -view stuff is mostly for old 3D glasses or for projector rooms |
| 19:20.45 | Juesto | why i would have audio driver not working |
| 19:21.10 | spldart | Comcast! Your back! Squeeee!!!11! |
| 19:21.18 | Juesto | lol |
| 19:21.31 | Juesto | hey spldart was thinking about your issue :) |
| 19:21.58 | spldart | Yeah. Now I'm spanning monitors using Nouveau and Nvidia proprietary drivers |
| 19:22.08 | Juesto | ah hm |
| 19:22.24 | spldart | Never had this problem before :( |
| 19:22.35 | Juesto | try -view stereo? |
| 19:22.50 | blast007 | you'll want to disable TwinView |
| 19:22.59 | blast007 | ooo, wait |
| 19:23.16 | blast007 | try this from the terminal: SDL_VIDEO_FULLSCREEN_HEAD=1 bzflag |
| 19:23.29 | Juesto | what it is btw |
| 19:23.42 | spldart | lemme try |
| 19:23.56 | blast007 | dunno if that works for SDL2 |
| 19:24.01 | Flash | by the way = btw |
| 19:24.20 | Juesto | Flash: i didn't ask about btw directly |
| 19:24.30 | Juesto | instead i should have put a comma |
| 19:24.41 | Flash | can't read your mind :) |
| 19:24.48 | Juesto | :/ |
| 19:25.05 | blast007 | Juesto: were you asking about TwinView? |
| 19:25.36 | Juesto | guess about both twinview and that sdl "flag" |
| 19:25.52 | spldart | SDL_VIDEO_FULLSCREEN_HEAD=1 ./src/bzflag/bzflag..... No difference |
| 19:26.05 | Juesto | uhm |
| 19:26.52 | Juesto | why the compiled version is lacking audio |
| 19:26.53 | blast007 | are you using the proprietary driver? |
| 19:27.07 | blast007 | Juesto: windows or linux? |
| 19:27.12 | Juesto | Windows |
| 19:27.31 | blast007 | you must have done something real special to make that happen |
| 19:27.34 | Juesto | release ver got audio |
| 19:27.54 | blast007 | is this your copy that had the dependencies integrated? |
| 19:27.54 | Juesto | seems audio support didn't get compiled or something |
| 19:28.27 | Juesto | i used the batch as expected so, no i didn't integrate the dependencies yet, blast007 |
| 19:28.55 | blast007 | dunno then |
| 19:29.41 | blast007 | spldart: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA#Gaming_using_TwinView |
| 19:30.13 | Juesto | there's no stereo apparently |
| 19:30.45 | Juesto | stereo panning |
| 19:31.11 | Juesto | actually only for some sounds |
| 19:31.17 | Juesto | not most |
| 19:31.36 | spldart | Well. I am getting near 200 fps on louman map so I'd say accel is working |
| 19:31.52 | spldart | Thanks for the link... *reads* |
| 19:32.12 | blast007 | don't just use the values they provided though |
| 19:32.42 | spldart | OH no |
| 19:32.57 | spldart | I can see that getting bad real quick |
| 19:35.50 | Juesto | how do i troubleshoot sound support being missing |
| 19:36.10 | Juesto | do i need OAL dev stuff installed? |
| 19:37.22 | spldart | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:39.20 | blast007 | Juesto: we don't use OpenAL |
| 19:40.58 | Juesto | oh... odd |
| 19:41.20 | Juesto | what's your setup? |
| 19:41.38 | Juesto | i mean what is determining sound compile? |
| 19:41.45 | Juesto | sound support* |
| 19:42.36 | blast007 | our audio code is all custom, aside from using SDL2 to open the push the audio to the hardware |
| 19:42.49 | blast007 | we do our own mixing and effects |
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| 19:53.53 | spldart | Oh yeah. Broke my ish good |
| 19:54.03 | blast007 | heh |
| 19:54.19 | blast007 | that's been my typical experience with nVidia on linux :) |
| 19:54.36 | blast007 | and I wasn't even trying to do dual display |
| 19:55.00 | blast007 | AMD and Intel is much smoother |
| 19:55.01 | spldart | Welp. I got enough untangled to get this back online. I'll have fun the rest of the evening untangling the rest of this ball of yarn :( |
| 19:55.29 | blast007 | (at least if they're not the latest chips) |
| 19:55.42 | spldart | I'll keep that in mind... Except that intel ish that spans the cpu core and an external gpu accelerator |
| 19:56.00 | blast007 | yeah, no hybrid stuff :) |
| 19:56.31 | spldart | I was modding my grub to pass settings to linux when I was messing with that. |
| 19:56.32 | spldart | No fun |
| 19:57.12 | spldart | Oh! BTW Intel... That one monitor over there. It doesn't exist. Do not use it. |
| 19:58.42 | blast007 | I plugged in a second monitor to this system earlier and it popped right up. This is the Intel HD 2500 on an i3-3220 on Debian Stretch. |
| 20:00.11 | spldart | maybe it's time for deb testing for me :/ |
| 20:00.40 | blast007 | doubt that's going to magically fix nvidia's proprietary drivers |
| 20:02.06 | Juesto | while code is optimized at least in Windows symbols are quite accurate imo |
| 20:02.29 | Juesto | means crashes can be still debugged just fine |
| 20:02.45 | Juesto | not perfect but for the most part |
| 20:02.52 | spldart | or nouveau? which used to work but doesn't any more? |
| 20:21.17 | spldart | I have been distracted by a shiny object |
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| 21:09.25 | JeffM | I belive there is a setting that tells it to do one or 2 displays |
| 21:09.42 | JeffM | in windows there is a mode for "wide screen multi-monitor" gaming |
| 21:09.55 | JeffM | I have the option on my system to use a single, or all 3 displays |
| 21:10.24 | JeffM | I usually have it set to the center screen, but for games like EliteDangerous I have it span all 3 |
| 21:10.36 | JeffM | so I don't think it's a bug or a problem but simply a defaults issue. |
| 21:12.20 | JeffM | I belive it's called "twin view" for nvidia |
| 21:13.35 | blast007 | spldart: how did you install the proprietary drives? through the packages that Debian provides? |
| 21:14.17 | spldart | gimme a sec. pouring a jim bean apple over rocks |
| 21:15.11 | spldart | ok. |
| 21:15.11 | spldart | so |
| 21:16.18 | spldart | I was pouring over the long list of old drivers on nvidia website and found the newest version that supported the 9800 gt. Low and behold I notice that driver is in repos if you include 'contrib' |
| 21:16.45 | blast007 | if you installed it from the nvidia site, it overwrote system files |
| 21:17.14 | spldart | So I blacklisted nouveau, installed nvidia from contrib repos |
| 21:17.16 | blast007 | you probably need contrib and non-free |
| 21:17.28 | spldart | had non-free. had to add contrib |
| 21:17.41 | blast007 | ah, that's a weird combo :) |
| 21:17.53 | blast007 | normally you turn on contrib if you turn on non-free |
| 21:17.54 | spldart | I was main non-[free and multimedia |
| 21:18.03 | spldart | I know i know |
| 21:18.08 | spldart | brand new install |
| 21:18.14 | blast007 | deb-multimedia? |
| 21:18.19 | spldart | and it's been very busy last 2 weeks |
| 21:18.48 | spldart | dauighters graduated coom laude or whaterver sam houston state u |
| 21:18.51 | spldart | and mothers day |
| 21:19.02 | spldart | so this install is not very well setup yet |
| 21:19.05 | spldart | anywho |
| 21:19.25 | blast007 | there is no 'multimedia' pool in the Debian repos |
| 21:19.49 | spldart | the unofficial deb multimedia |
| 21:19.50 | blast007 | if you're using deb-multimedia, you shouldn't |
| 21:19.58 | spldart | I like it! |
| 21:20.08 | spldart | why/ |
| 21:20.13 | blast007 | it breaks stuff in creative ways and prevents you from receiving some security updates |
| 21:20.32 | spldart | oh. Well. It helps me 'edit videos' |
| 21:20.45 | spldart | and 'decrypt videos' |
| 21:20.50 | spldart | and.... stuff |
| 21:21.04 | spldart | anyway |
| 21:21.10 | spldart | I digress |
| 21:21.52 | spldart | Both the default Nouveau and the proprietary nvidia span unwantingly |
| 21:22.12 | spldart | so if I want to play bzflag... I reboot with a monitor turned off. |
| 21:23.09 | blast007 | is there any mention of TwinView in your Xorg.conf? |
| 21:23.33 | spldart | I shall look |
| 21:23.38 | Juesto | spldart: can't you use the displays applet? |
| 21:24.22 | spldart | I can see the two monitors in my gnome 3 configure menu. |
| 21:25.34 | spldart | Mr blast007> no there is no mention of twin anything in my xorg.conf |
| 21:26.27 | blast007 | and there isn't any other config in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ ? |
| 21:26.50 | spldart | Well... I don't think it's using this conf as there is no mention of a second monitor either. |
| 21:27.23 | spldart | gnome menu config shows my 40" as a 33" and my 20" as a 19" |
| 21:27.34 | blast007 | did you follow the instructions on https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers ? |
| 21:27.42 | JeffM | some forum reports say that it may be best to setup the drivers with a single display connected, the one you want to be the "main" |
| 21:27.50 | JeffM | so it gets all the default stuff |
| 21:27.58 | JeffM | then connect a second one later after it's all setup |
| 21:29.48 | spldart | Blast - I'm running the 340 legacy driver mostly following thos directions :/ |
| 21:30.16 | spldart | Jeff - That gives me something new to try :) |
| 21:33.40 | spldart | BTW thanks for that poke-ish comment about what driver I should be running. It made my tired butt go ahead and get a proper module on that card. FPS is up alot and video playback seek functionality is much improved |
| 21:34.08 | *** join/#bzflag Zehra (~Zehra@unaffiliated/zehra) |
| 21:38.53 | spldart | oooOOOOoooo... I wonder if my fps will increase once I get it to render single monitor :) |
| 22:44.43 | Juesto | lol |
| 22:44.46 | Juesto | it will |
| 22:45.39 | Zehra | Don't increase the FPS too much, since the physics will fail. |
| 22:47.32 | blast007 | yeah, keep it under 200-ish :) |
