| 00:00.25 | paulproteus | Peaker: What do you suggest using instead of GNU make? |
| 00:00.36 | sgeigerbot | g4lt: would you mind typing out some of those unspeakable things you were doing to dondelelcaro? |
| 00:00.39 | paulproteus | (with autoconf and friends) |
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| 00:00.51 | keith | hello |
| 00:00.59 | Bowel | Sigh, I can't manage mutt to send my GPG-key the traditional way. Is there a simple way? |
| 00:01.03 | Peaker | paulproteus: For now, SCons is probably slightly better because it is at least correct about its timestamp-rebuilding |
| 00:01.32 | eeyore- | Peaker: why doesn't autoconf/automake/make work correctly? |
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| 00:01.57 | paulproteus | Hello, keith. |
| 00:01.59 | Peaker | paulproteus: SCons/pybuild make ccache redundant, and work better than CCache (not only for C/C++ compilations, faster) |
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| 00:02.47 | Peaker | eeyore-: Because make does not know to rebuild upon configuration changes, and less strictly speaking, because conventional makefiles are recursive and that means make sees only part of the picture and inter-directory dependencies arent handled correctly |
| 00:03.00 | keith | i haver a silly question, i was unable to get kde to run on this box, i installed xserver-svga and it ran it fine, however i set the ress down to 800x600 as i thought this maybe effecting it |
| 00:03.19 | keith | hoiw can i change thios or where is the config file so i can manually edit it? |
| 00:03.22 | paulproteus | keith: I think your X setup doesn't work. |
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| 00:03.29 | keith | or is it sumink simple i can do in x |
| 00:03.30 | paulproteus | Make sure you have the discover package installed. |
| 00:03.32 | sgeigerbot | ~+source |
| 00:03.42 | | To build Debian packages from source code: first, add a deb-src line to your sources.list file. Then "apt-get build-dep _pkg_" and "apt-get -b source _pkg_" to retrieve the build-dependencies, and the source. The resulting .deb files will be in `pwd`. |
| 00:03.42 | Peaker | eeyore-: For example, if make runs sub-makes in a/ and in b/ and a/a depends on b/b and b/a depends on a/b - then you will have to run make on a/ and on b/ in a loop until it "stabilizes" or such |
| 00:03.42 | thomas_adam | keith: /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 |
| 00:03.42 | paulproteus | The config file is /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 . |
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| 00:04.02 | peterS | Peaker: this "pybuild" - what language are you writing it in? |
| 00:04.10 | Peaker | peterS: Surprisingly, in Python :) |
| 00:04.10 | paulproteus | peterS: Probably "py"thon. |
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| 00:04.38 | eeyore- | Peaker: remove a/b and b/b, they're obviously independent |
| 00:04.45 | peterS | Peaker: maybe you can explain this to me. why is it that python programmers are so insecure about the popularity of their language that they feel the need to advertise its use in every single program name? |
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| 00:05.05 | paulproteus | peterS: I use Python, and I think it's cute, like the K in front of KDE programs. |
| 00:05.10 | eeyore- | Peaker: maybe you should have c/ and that'd solve your problem |
| 00:05.12 | peterS | Peaker: I haven't seen this tendency in most other languages - the other one perhaps being Java, with the "j*" namespace |
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| 00:05.35 | sgeigerbot | peterS: Thoughts are like DNS. |
| 00:05.38 | paulproteus | It's partically because we like to advertise Python, since we find it very nice for coding. :) |
| 00:05.43 | sgeigerbot | peterS: DNA, I mean.. |
| 00:05.44 | Gil | peterS: Same reason for Java programmers and KDE applications! |
| 00:05.44 | Peaker | eeyore-: A) You're now resolving dependencies in your head, this should be done by the dependency manager. B) cross-directory dependencies should be allowed, they are a real-world necessity |
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| 00:06.03 | peterS | Gil: right, I sort of figured |
| 00:06.08 | Peaker | peterS: Because the py* prefix often denotes excellence of quality :) |
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| 00:06.29 | eeyore- | Peaker: whenever i see cross dependencies like that, it's because of a poor structuring to begin with ... and factoring it made sense |
| 00:06.33 | thomas_adam | Peaker: I prefer Ruby |
| 00:06.39 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: okay...I'm done downloading. Do you have any further instructions? |
| 00:06.43 | Peaker | peterS: Seriously, because Python programms are usually Python advocates and want to advocate Python. And pybuild is impotrantly "py" because the build scripts are Python |
| 00:07.20 | eeyore- | ... c-linux |
| 00:07.37 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: unpack the tar.gz (orig) |
| 00:07.37 | peterS | Peaker: I just wonder why people who write Perl applications don't tend to bother with that. or, same with other languages. |
| 00:07.38 | eeyore- | hmm, does sound kinda-cute. c/assembly-linux |
| 00:07.42 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: done |
| 00:07.43 | Peaker | eeyore-: Not necessarily. If you develop module a/ and you have a/test/unit_test, which needs b/stub/stub_lib, and b/test which needs a/data/some_interesting_piece_of_data? |
| 00:07.45 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: gunzip the diff.gz and apply it, do you know how? |
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| 00:07.49 | MrKeuner | how can I run gdm everytime instead of xdm? |
| 00:07.53 | pixelmonkey | if I'm using DRI snapshots from dri.sf.net, do I need to compile DRI support into my kernel? |
| 00:07.57 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: apt-get install 'gnustep-*' (you are on sid, right?) |
| 00:08.04 | peterS | Peaker: I'm forced to conclude that non-python programmers think the name of an application does not necessarily have to denote even the most important of its implementation details |
| 00:08.06 | paulproteus | MrKeuner: Read the /etc/init.d/xdm script and notice the "DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER" file. |
| 00:08.11 | Peaker | peterS: Don't know. In the case of pybuild - it has more meaning - the build scripts the user writes are in Python |
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| 00:08.20 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: apt-get install devscripts, and debuild in the directry, you might need to chmod +x the debian/rules file |
| 00:08.21 | thomas_adam | peterS: hear hear |
| 00:08.30 | g4lt | well, i guess i noww see why Peaker is so concerned with test-builds and dependencies. What do you expect from an interpreted language that changes at the drop of a hat? |
| 00:08.31 | eeyore- | oh my! |
| 00:08.39 | peterS | Peaker: ah, that would make a bit more sense then. I'm thinking more in terms of "PySol" for example. why would the end-user care that it's in Python? |
| 00:08.53 | eeyore- | Peaker: now *i* have to learn another language to build! |
| 00:08.54 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: zcat ../difffile | patch -p0 -E ? |
| 00:09.01 | Peaker | eeyore-: How do you suggest you restructure that? Wouldn't you prefer such dependencies were seamless in the builder? |
| 00:09.09 | paulproteus | peterS: Because the user will eventually want all his software in Python? ;) |
| 00:09.09 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: ...or is it patch -p1? |
| 00:09.10 | thomas_adam | peterS: is that the same as X* apps? :) |
| 00:09.11 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: i usually do patch -p1 < ../thepatch |
| 00:09.12 | Peaker | eeyore-: Only a small subset which is extremely simple |
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| 00:09.24 | eeyore- | Peaker: what's wrong with looking at the Makefiles, grok it all, and just work on it for me? this would be nice, i don't have to change anything |
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| 00:09.36 | thomas_adam | tarzeau: -p depends on the abstraction layer of dir deps in the patchfile |
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| 00:09.43 | Peaker | g4lt: You are either very dumb, or a troll. You are adding nothing of value to the argument, please stop the flaming. |
| 00:09.43 | peterS | thomas_adam: a lot of x* apps are so named to distinguish themselves from non-X apps of similar names |
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| 00:09.59 | thomas_adam | Peaker: I was being faceitious |
| 00:09.59 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: done: zcat ../cenon_3.60.9-1.diff.gz | patch -p1 |
| 00:10.04 | peterS | thomas_adam: and the fact that something uses the X Window System seems to me like a lot more important info for an end-user to know, than whether or not it uses a Python interpreter |
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| 00:10.14 | g4lt | Peaker I'm deadly serious. use a language worth a shit, then make works for you |
| 00:10.18 | thomas_adam | Peaker: I was being faceitious :) |
| 00:10.19 | eeyore- | Peaker: if you could do *that*, it'd be much more interesting |
| 00:10.21 | Peaker | eeyore-: Make's incorrectness is just the most blunt shortcoming in my oppinion. I have many more that I reasonably cannot live with |
| 00:10.24 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: good now go into the cenon dir, and say debuild, well +x rules first |
| 00:10.26 | thomas_adam | peterS: I was being faceitious :) |
| 00:10.32 | Peaker | g4lt: When using Python I don't need a build system |
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| 00:10.45 | adhoc | Peaker: =) |
| 00:10.49 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: fricking resolving issues again while trying to apt-get install devscripts. hold on... |
| 00:10.50 | Gil | g4lt: it's true. many modern languages do it for you |
| 00:11.05 | Peaker | eeyore-: I already do that - my build system sees all the dependencies, including inter-directory ones, and builds exactly what's necessary in the exact order |
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| 00:11.18 | peterS | thomas_adam: I *was* happy when applications using xlib started appearing that didn't all start with the letter x, btw. and when they started showing up in /usr/bin/ rather than /usr/bin/X11/. (: |
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| 00:11.55 | thomas_adam | peterS: true. |
| 00:12.03 | Peaker | eeyore-: It also keeps cached copies of everything that it already built so that reconfiguring some of the targets (in make you can only reconfigure everything you're building) or subtargets will rebuild just those that changed configuration, and if they were ever built, just play with some symlinks |
| 00:12.14 | tHe_DeAmOn | cu |
| 00:12.54 | Dr_J | Is there any way to use apt-get to build EVERYTHING you apt-get from source (a la Gentoo)? |
| 00:13.08 | thomas_adam | Dr_J: just use the bimary |
| 00:13.12 | Peaker | thomas_adam: Read "Recursive make considered harmful", scroll up and read about the reiserfs kernel panics. |
| 00:13.15 | eeyore- | Peaker: "changed configuration"? like ... adding or removing #define? |
| 00:13.20 | thomas_adam | Dr_J: the binaries are made from the source that you download |
| 00:13.21 | tarzeau | Dr_J: tell me one good reason why you want to do that |
| 00:13.32 | adhoc | Peaker: have you looked at/used scons? |
| 00:13.35 | Peaker | eeyore-: No, like adding/removing -g or -D(#define but in the cmdline) from specific targets |
| 00:13.38 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: This was already on the macine: gnustep-back gnustep-base1 gnustep-gui0 gnustep-make gnustep-ppd |
| 00:13.39 | Dr_J | no good reason... just curious |
| 00:13.50 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: well does debuild work then? i |
| 00:13.50 | Peaker | adhoc: Yeah, SCons is a huge step ahead of make, but pybuild is a huge step ahead of SCons :) |
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| 00:14.11 | adhoc | Peaker: some of use still need to use C++ ... |
| 00:14.13 | eeyore- | Peaker: but ... automake/autoconf changes config.h which are #define in the file(s), not -D |
| 00:14.14 | Peaker | well, it will be when its complete :) Right now its just 1-day old but it already does a lot :) |
| 00:14.15 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: Im running apt-get install gnustep-gui0-dev |
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| 00:14.22 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: good |
| 00:14.53 | thomas_adam | !+find twm |
| 00:14.54 | dpkg | Updating debian files... please wait. |
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| 00:15.04 | dpkg | Debian Search of 'twm' (6 shown; 18 total): (/usr/bin/twmapscrn) in utils/twin ;; (/usr/include/ion2/ioncore/netwm.h) in devel/ion2-dev ;; (/usr/share/pixmaps/mlterm-icon-twm.png) in x11/mlterm ;; (/usr/share/terminfo/x/xterm+sl-twm) in admin/ncurses-term ;; (/usr/X11R6/include/X11/pixmaps/mini.twm.xpm) in x11/fvwm-icons ;; (/usr/include/ion-devel/ioncore/netwm.h) in devel/ion-devel-dev. |
| 00:15.10 | Peaker | eeyore-: By configuration I don't mean automake/autoconf.. I mean the user wanting some of the modules compiled in differently this time (i.e "Ok, the problem is in the Reactor, lets compile it with debug messages and memory tracking this time") |
| 00:15.14 | eeyore- | Peaker: if you could "replace make" but let me keep the other parts of the build chain, i'd be happy |
| 00:15.51 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: Crap! I hope this works!! The following NEW packages will be installed: gnustep-base1-dev gnustep-gui0-dev gobjc gobjc-3.3 libffcall1-dev libgmp3-dev The following packages will be upgraded cpp cpp-3.3 g++-3.3 gcc gcc-3.3 gcc-3.3-base gnustep-base1 gnustep-gui0 gnustep-make gnustep-ppd libffcall1 libgcc1 libobjc1 libstdc++5 libstdc++5-3.3-dev |
| 00:15.57 | eeyore- | don't get me wrong, there are things about make i don't like. i wish it would (reliably) do parallel builds ... distributed builds even |
| 00:16.15 | Peaker | eeyore-: If you have to regenerate the make scripts for autoconf-configuration changes then you're still recompiling things unnecessarily. I intend to get rid of all unnecessary recompilations, and ensure everything is correctly recompiled when due |
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| 00:16.20 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: hehe, go on , it's ok |
| 00:16.29 | Peaker | eeyore-: "make -j" doesn't work ok? |
| 00:16.42 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: too late...I already went on. ;-) |
| 00:16.53 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: I just know what trouble I might be in for... |
| 00:16.54 | Peaker | eeyore-: well, it doesn't when using recursive makes (another reason why that is wrong) |
| 00:17.16 | tarzeau | sgeigerbot: sure not worse than gnome or kde |
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| 00:17.36 | Bazz | i'm trying to install debian on a laptop i just got, and the installer keeps locking up after about 2 minutes, no matter what i'm doing... i figure maybe i should try some floppies with a 2.6 image and see what happens there... anyone have any other suggestions or know where i can get debian install floppies (for a network install) with 2.6.(1/2) on them? |
| 00:17.49 | sgeigerbot | tarzeau: yes, but when I have a working system, I don't take risks like that lightly. |
| 00:19.44 | paulproteus | Bazz: Have you tried the new Testing installer? |
| 00:19.58 | Peaker | eeyore-: First, I abstract away the command-line, so that debug_level maps to "-g" and "-DNDEBUG" in gcc, but other flags on other platforms/compilers. Then I abstract options with "requirements" such that you "require" a certain symbolset - and a "resolver" appropriate for your platform/target creates the necessary options. For example (RequiresSymbolset("OpenGL") will translate to Add("sys_libs", ["glX", "gl..."]) on *nix, but other things o |
| 00:19.58 | Peaker | n Windows...) |
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| 00:20.15 | Bazz | paulproteus: no... can i do that from floppies? |
| 00:20.28 | paulproteus | Bazz: I think so; check its web site. |
| 00:20.37 | Bazz | paulproteus: will do... thanks |
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| 00:21.10 | thomas_adam | Peaker: I think you should /J #make |
| 00:21.16 | eeyore- | Peaker: the jobserver mode doesn't work reliably all the time |
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| 00:21.22 | MrKeuner | what can I do to tell apt-get to install all the recommended and suggested packages as well? |
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| 00:21.41 | dondelelcaro | MrKeuner: you can't. You have to install them manually. |
| 00:21.45 | eeyore- | Peaker: sometimes if you cancel a build in the middle, one of the sub-make will wait for completion that'd never come |
| 00:21.47 | thomas_adam | MrKeuner: manually |
| 00:21.52 | beta3 | bob2: you there? |
| 00:21.55 | dondelelcaro | MrKeuner: use aptitude or synaptic instead if you want something to prompt you specifically. |
| 00:21.55 | MrKeuner | ok thanks |
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| 00:22.25 | eeyore- | Peaker: i see what you're doing, but don't you think it'd be better for this tool to analyze my files for me? |
| 00:22.26 | Bazz | paulproteus: indeed you can do from floppies... i'll try it, thanks |
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| 00:23.07 | eeyore- | Peaker: i mean, it'd be really super if you could look at *.c and *.h files, figure out what sort of #ifdef's i'm depending on, or what my dependencies on #defines are, and spit out whatever your tool needs in the end? |
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| 00:23.43 | fando | i need to convert wmv to mpeg, what's a good way? |
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| 00:25.36 | ryan` | fando: mplayer + mjpeg tools on mencoder |
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| 00:25.58 | fando | ryan`: thx |
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| 00:26.13 | sgeigerbot | Do other distros have something equivalent to debootstrap? |
| 00:26.19 | dondelelcaro | sgeigerbot: dunno... |
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