IRC log for #debian on 20180430

00:00.01iflemanse: I do not use eletric sheep but you may have some joy building it from source.
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00:01.51iflemachamaeleon: updates. You would have to do manually, you may forget it or parts of it are there and may run into trouble later on.
00:02.08iflemachamaeleon: or let the package manager handle it
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00:02.49iflemachamaeleon: dependencies it pull in may run amuck
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00:03.46iflemaoh... sorry
00:03.48iflema:D
00:05.31phinxyHow would I know if nvidia-drivers is available for linux-image-4.15?
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00:11.39pattersonWhat ever strijes your fancy
00:11.52pattersonDon't over think it
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00:12.56pattersonGood show
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00:24.13*** topic/#debian is Debian Stretch: /msg dpkg stretch ; /msg dpkg 9.4 ; /msg dpkg jessie->stretch; /msg dpkg install stretch | Oldstable: Debian Jessie /msg dpkg jessie ; /msg dpkg 8.10 | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | /msg bots NOT people | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing, unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net | chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog
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01:32.56bleboi is it still possible to get access to oldoldoldoldstable packages
01:33.32bleblike lenny or squeeze
01:34.13abrotmanarchive.debian.org ?
01:34.33awal1https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/
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01:51.19blebabrotman: thanks
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03:55.15jairhello there, anyone is running debian in lxc? I get a couple of vms running debian 9 stable and buster but when try to install the lightdm and lightdm-gtk-greeter and I try to connect using nomachine I get all sort of errors about xsession...
03:55.49jairI am deffinitely misisng something about the way how Linux configure the window managers
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04:04.02karlpincjair: Running X over the network must be turned on.  I forget the details.  If that's what nomachine does -- I think so but could be wrong.  You could try looking in the /usr/share/doc/<packagename>/README.Debian{.gz} file.  I seem to recall instructions there.
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04:04.49karlpincjair: For the nomachine package or the display manager packages...
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04:28.31jairhello karlpinc thank you for the information, sorry for the delay response
04:28.48jairkarlpinc: running x over the network...
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04:29.10jairkarlpinc: let me check
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04:33.31jairkarlpinc: hmm I think I am a bit confused.  for example. when I install debian in a virtual machine for example, virtual box, the greeter, X everything get installed fine when I select the window manager and greeter, for example gnome gdm3 etc...
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04:35.14jairbut if I am running containers, lxd/lxc I install the linux system and all goes fine just as on virtual box, however when I try to connect to the system using nomachine (nx) I get this error about: xsession unable to start x session no /home/user/.xsession
04:36.03somiajwhat is nomachine? if using the remote as an xserver, you should use an xclient. Any reason you want to use a gui on the guest? What gui app are you trying to run? What os are you running from?
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04:47.23karlpincsomiaj: nomachine is a vnc-like thing, but uses X.  I think.  Or does not use X in some clever way.  I recall it being kinda cool but never used it.
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04:52.54somiajkarlpinc: ahh, yea thought it was some vnc like thing, and sounds like the whole enviorment isn't setup correctly
04:53.26somiajjair: anyways, if all you need to do is run a gui app locally, I find ssh + xforwarding a nice way to do that.
04:53.41somiaj(though this is an alternative to configuing the nomachine vnc server correclty)
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04:57.21karlpincjair: Yes.  A basic test would be to run "ssh -X you@yourvm xeyes".  (You might have to install the xeyes package.)  Then you'd see "something".
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05:08.39darxmurfmorning
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06:36.13v0idpwnHey. I've been using debian for some time and I installed too many packages. I'm with about 1650 now. I want to remove the ones that I don't use, but I can't remember them. Is there a good way to check this kind of stuff?
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06:38.58Hooloovo0v0idpwn, I recently went through my packages and removed the ones I didn't use
06:39.18Hooloovo0it took around 2 hours, for a similar number of packages as you
06:39.30karlpincv0idpwn: "aptitude search '~i'" will show you installed packages.  The ones with an "A" in the 3rd character can be ignored, they are the ones installed automatically.  There's a way to keep aptitude from showing you these, but you'd have to read the documentation (in html :-P) to find out how.
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06:40.26v0idpwnSo long... ;_;
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06:54.59date_nightv0idpwn: You can try `deborphan --guess-all`
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06:58.06date_nightI have 1388 packages
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07:05.53daggs1-workGreetings, is it possible to take debian testing's kernel and install it without any issues on debian stable?
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07:08.20date_nightdaggs1-work if you want testing packages why not just track testing instead of stable?
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07:09.05daggs1-workdate_night: the machine in question supposes to be a production server, I want it to be stable as possible
07:09.17daggs1-workI need support for a device that doesn't exists in 4.9
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07:11.53bug,v linux
07:11.54juddNo package named 'linux' was found in amd64.
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07:13.24date_nightdaggs1-work: I only started using linux fairly recently so probably doable but I don't think it is recommended
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07:16.38draccIs it possible to define multiple rules inside one udev-rule-file?
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07:18.21draccI have an xbox (2001 version) duke controller connected through usb. I want to make sure that both entries in /dev/input have 0666 permission, and that the second "keyboard" device that it provides has 0000. Do I need multiple files in /etc/udev/rules.d ?
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07:19.04daggs1-workdate_night: I hoped it is as simple as other distros
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07:21.23date_nightdaggs1-work: I used to use Stable, use apt-pin and got firefox from unstable, but overtime, the updates pulled more and more packages from unstable
07:21.28buglinux kernel 4.15 is available in stretch-backports, daggs1-work. https://packages.debian.org/stretch-backports/linux-image-amd64
07:21.47date_nightdaggs1-work: Then I was like stuff this, Ill just upgrade to unstable
07:23.30karlpincdaggs1-work: Use the kernel in backports if you want something newer.
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07:24.48karlpincdaggs1-work: You could also build your own kernel with just that driver, if you cared to.  There's a section on kernel building in the manual at debian.org.
07:25.04nirakarahi. i've installed a kernel from stretch-backports -- is there a way to identify which kernel this is and remove it?
07:25.33nirakarai've tried googling but my google'fu isn't up to scratch it seems.
07:25.45karlpincnirakara: "aptitude search '~ilinux-image'" will show you installed kernels.
07:25.54daggs1-workkarlpinc: I think I'd better just poll the latest kernel becase the adapter is usb3 and I don't know what other fixes are part of 4.15 and no part of 4.9
07:26.31dracckarlpinc, omg, TIL about "~i". Thank you!
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07:27.03karlpincnirakara: You could also just "ls /boot".  :)
07:27.17nirakarakarlpinc: this is the output. how do i ID backported kernels? (https://dpaste.de/oUFa)
07:28.02karlpincdracc: aptitude has a bunch of useful sorts of package matching like that.  But you have to read the docs in html.
07:28.26karlpincnirakara: They would have "bpo" in the package suffixes.
07:28.57dracckarlpinc, Thanks for the advice, I'll dig deeper into that next time I figure I'll need it. :D
07:29.12karlpincnirakara: Humm.
07:29.57nirakarakarlpinc: none of that output (https://dpaste.de/oUFa) has "bpo" in the string. (the issue is i have wireguard installed but because of a backported kernel its leading me down a rabbit hole of installing backported packages to compile the right headers so i want to just go back to the stable stretch kernel)
07:30.00karlpincnirakara: use "apt-cache policy $PKGNAME" on the different packages to see what source repo they came from.
07:30.48karlpincnirakara: There's also a "-t" option to aptitude that does something with the repo but I forget how to use it.  (I think apt-get has the same option, maybe.)
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07:32.24karlpincnirakara: Humm. I guess -t does not work with searching.
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07:33.53karlpincwonders if the debian wiki does not have something about the best way to get newer kernels.
07:33.59nirakarakarlpinc: here is some sample output from `apt-cache policy $PKG` (https://dpaste.de/fiQ3) -- the first kernel does not have a repo listed. is it safe to remove the 4.15.x-x kernels and then reboot?
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07:35.53karlpincnirakara: With kernels you want to not only remove them, but purge them.  then you can reboot.  (Assuming you're running one of these newer kernels.  Otherwise no need to reboot.)
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07:36.13bugnirakara, boot into the kernel you want to keep and then uninstall the other one(s).
07:36.32karlpincnirakara: ! Yes.  Don't remove a kernel you are running.  (Sorry)
07:36.39nirakarabug: karlpinc, going to try bug's method and revert
07:36.41nirakarabrb
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07:47.01nirakarathanks to karlpinc and bug for the tips. successfully running on the stable kernel :)
07:47.11nirakaraso headers install without backport issues, thxgawd
07:47.33nirakaraand wireguard is guarding meh wires
07:47.43bugcongrats
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09:19.15r3m1hello
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09:19.32r3m1i have a server with /var partition full because of a very large log file
09:19.53r3m1I need to fix my logrotate, and will do. can I simply delete the log file ?
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09:20.18r3m1shall I restart rsyslog service after doing that ?
09:21.19Oolr3m1: yes but, better to stop the verbose service before
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09:26.42boltIf the file is still open in the process, the space will not be freed until the process is stopped
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09:30.39Haohmarui got an mp3 player plugged via USB, it appears as a mass storage device and charges its battery.. is there a way to "eject" it so that it doesn't work as mass storage (but keeps charging) ?
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09:31.31Haohmaru(because when it's in mass storage mode, it cannot play music)
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09:36.01BCMMHaohmaru: does the "eject" command work on it?
09:36.15BCMMHaohmaru: i mean, on the command line - eject /dev/sdX
09:36.30BCMMIIRC that worked on the iPod Classic
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09:39.36luna_not every day you have to SSH into a Russian Debian installation
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09:41.56boltHaohmaru: if you're not using it for other stuff, you might be able to unload the usb-storage module
09:42.05boltbit of a crude solution, if that
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09:42.25JanniHello.
09:42.30boltHaohmaru: it's not mounted, right?
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09:44.16JanniI was wondering, is there a way to have every output of every command be redirected to some file? I'm hoping of having the following functionality: after executing whatever command in the shell, some keyboard combination gives me access ot that commands output, for instance by opening a file containing the output in my favourite editor.
09:44.29JanniI'm talking bash here, btw.
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09:45.06boltJanni: tee?
09:45.09JanniOr does anyone know of a way to achieve something similar?
09:45.09boltJanni: script?
09:45.18boltJanni: those are commands, btw.
09:45.34Jannibolt: No, I'm not talking about a specific command of which I know beforehand that I need its output.
09:45.48JanniI'm talking about ANY command than I EVER type in the shell.
09:46.04boltRun script on login?
09:46.15JanniSo I can AFTERWARDS say. Oh yes, let's have a closer look at that output, let's edit it, let's search in it.
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09:47.19JanniYou know, I often find myself doing this: execute some command, decide that I need to take a closer look, re-execute the same command piping its output into a file...
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09:48.07JanniSo I was wondering if there was a good shortcut to this (optimally not needing to execute the command a second time as the output might be different now)
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09:48.34boltscript.
09:48.40Jannibolt: script would allow me to scroll through all output but wouldn't give me pratictal access to ....
09:48.53Jannibolt: Really? All right, I'll RTFM.
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09:50.45Jannibolt: Alright, I'll stick with script for now. It's close enough to what I want. Thanks.
09:50.59Jannihttps://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/25639/how-to-automatically-record-all-your-terminal-sessions-with-script-utility
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09:57.02Haohmarubolt it's not mounted
09:57.33Haohmarui tried eject but it still is aware that it's connected to a computer/host and doesn't go back to the player mode
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10:03.40boltHaohmaru: unload module
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10:18.47Haohmaru:/
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10:18.52Haohmarui'll wait for it to charge
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10:20.29boltHaohmaru: maybe not a solution for you, but you can search eBay for "charging cable", or "charging adapter for usb". One is a cable with only power leads, and the other is a small female to male usb plug that, again, only transmits power. It's useful for those situations, and when you only have access to a computer you don't trust to charge your phone or something. I always carry one.
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10:21.37Haohmarui got a dumb charger like that, but i forgot it in the other office..
10:22.27Haohmaruit's a bit surprising that you can't tell linux to "stop talking to a usb device"
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10:22.37Haohmarui mean, not easily
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10:22.56Haohmarui'm sure someone will prove me wrong by using some black magic config files or something ;P~
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10:23.18boltI'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't. I just don't know how :) Perhaps you can put an option in modprobe.d to make the usb-storage module ignore that device id?
10:23.33boltmight be worth a google search
10:23.47Haohmaruyeah, that's what i meant with "black magic" x_x
10:23.56boltblack list, at least :D
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10:25.38BCMMHaohmaru: depending on the device, it is entirely possible that what you're trying to do is impossible
10:26.05BCMMfor example, the mere presence of d+ and d- pins might be enough
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10:26.34Haohmaruoh, well..
10:26.54BCMMi mean, impossible in software. there's always stuff like https://int3.cc/products/usbcondoms
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10:27.03BCMM(or just butchering a spare USB cable)
10:27.08Haohmarusure..
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10:27.33boltBCMM: that would mean "smart chargers" would have the same effect on it though
10:27.50boltBCMM: those where negotiation about voltage and power consumption takes place
10:27.53BCMMbolt: i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, for an old enough mp3 player
10:28.08Haohmaruit's old.. probably 10 year old by now
10:28.16boltBCMM: hm. good point.
10:28.18Haohmaruphilips go-gear
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10:28.56bolt"Nobody will ever make a charger you can talk to, so if something is at the other end, it's a computer"
10:29.04bolt-some dude 10 years ago
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10:29.25Haohmaru>:)
10:29.48Haohmaruwhy didn't they make USB connectors in such a way that you can insert it "half-way" ;P~
10:29.51BCMMi mean there's few enough devices *now* that play nice with all the different types of so-called "smart" charger
10:30.27Haohmarui think only the ground pin is longer
10:31.01Haohmaruoh wait, maybe i'm wrong
10:31.16BCMMi think 5v and 0v are both longer
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10:31.53BCMMyou might be thinking of the fact that usb devices are electrostatically grounded before anything else connects?
10:31.59BCMM(but that's done by the plug's metal body)
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10:48.08hans_every single time i try to report a false positive on the spam filter on paste.debian.org , the email has been ignored. has anyone ever experienced that he has responded to a spam filter false positive report?
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10:48.23hans_it's been like that for years
10:49.00jellyno, but I don't remember ever seeing what a detected spam looks like
10:50.04hans_jelly, my latest example, this is detected as spam: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/JjAydTUwzX66ha9iuZmBkw/raw
10:50.46hans_(so i had to use something else, like paste.fedoraproject.org instead of paste.debian.net )
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10:51.10jellynod.  I see it now
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11:02.45hans_jelly, also sent 1 report in 2015, and several reports in 2016, but all emails were ignored
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12:03.27c|onerwhat's the most common and/or faster remote desktop server for debian? VNC appears to be builtin but with short passwords and just 'okay' performance
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12:19.37karlpincc|oner: The fastest is probably X11 itself.
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12:21.07c|onerI'll try x2go
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12:21.45karlpincc|oner: Of course you'll want to run X over a trusted network.  I don't konw about x2go.
12:22.41karlpincc|oner: Is x2go Qt4 only?
12:22.54karlpinc(Sounds a bit limiting.)
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12:31.27Kelsarkarlpinc: X is not fast, not even on local networks
12:31.55Kelsarnowadays it is roughly the same as VNC anyways, since no modern toolkit uses X primitives anymore
12:32.09Kelsarc|oner: x2go is not bad
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12:32.45noodlepieHiya guys! All good today?
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12:45.19c|oneralright, xrdp it is. This is one compatible with RemotiX
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12:59.17jollyjesterhello!
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13:14.18sysx1000Hello. Could someone help me with iproute 2? I have two PS4 here and I want to forward their traffic over faster channel. I have prepared routing table there, I called it sony.out. I also made some prerouting rules for iptables; these rules marks all packets from ps4 with mark 1
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13:14.59sysx1000then I added rule on a router ip ro add default via fast.router dev ppp0 table sony.out
13:15.26sysx1000and then, I am trying to add routing rule: ip ru add fwmark 1 table sony.out
13:15.47sysx1000once I do that, my router hangs immediately, no packets coming in or out
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13:16.18jbetz_I'm trying to install telegram-purple on a wheezy instance of debian, and it's failing because it's unable to locate the package libgrcypt20-dev. so, I tried installing a jessie version of the package, but it was unable to install due to dependency issues.
13:16.20sysx1000what's wrong?
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13:17.23sysx1000why ip rule add fwmark 1 table sony.out affects all network so badly?
13:17.38jbetz_anyone know a way to get libgcryp20-dev to work on wheezy, or a better way to install telegram-purple?
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13:27.02jellysysx1000: ask in #Netfilter if noone answers here
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13:34.34RoyKsysx1000: not sure, but have you checked http://lartc.org/ for docs?
13:35.29twsysx1000: I'd check to see which packets are being marked.
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14:02.20sysx1000tw, no matters, what packets are marked or not - it must not hang the router
14:02.53RoyKsysx1000: what sort of router?
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14:03.11RoyKsysx1000: have you set it up to do syslogging somewhere?
14:03.12sysx1000armbian on pine64
14:03.28sysx1000nothing interestng in syslog
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14:03.54RoyKwhat about netconsole?
14:04.19sysx1000netconsole?
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14:04.25RoyK!netconsole
14:04.25dpkgnetconsole is a Linux kernel driver which logs kernel <printk> messages over UDP.  It is commonly used to capture system crash information.  http://kernel.org/doc/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt .  See also <serial console>.
14:04.40twsysx1000: hanging the router is as simple as breaking its ability to connect back to the user.
14:04.42sysx1000no netconsole
14:04.47RoyKok - try that
14:04.55RoyKmight be a panic
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14:05.22twIt's a lot more likely that you get it in a state where your ssh/https access is being forced over a misconfigured routing table.
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14:05.26sysx1000tw after that I can't ping any it's interfaces
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14:05.45RoyKsysx1000: try a netconsole, then - it's not hard
14:06.06sysx1000ok, I'll try
14:06.06jellymost of those cards have a LVTTL or TTL serial
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14:06.22jellys/cards/devices/
14:06.33RoyKserial might be better, yes
14:06.35twI'd bet that the device itself isn't hung, you just blew away it's routing table.
14:07.06RoyKtw: shouldn't affect anything on the LAN
14:07.44twRoyK: he's messing with policy routing and ip rule, it can completely ignore the default table that is updated when interfaces come up/down.
14:08.04jellybut it might also have a hdmi and usb keyboard console
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14:09.15RoyKsysx1000: seems it should support a serial console
14:09.30RoyKhttps://www.pine64.org/?product=padi-serial-console
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14:10.48sysx1000RoyK: yes, I have attached my FTDI there now, nothing comes on console, however router is alive ;) only network goes crazy
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14:11.39RoyKsysx1000: you need to tell raspbian to use a serial console, though
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14:13.57sysx1000RoyK: I meant nothing TERRIBLE comes to console ;)
14:14.19sysx1000ok, it seems I have found why it happens, I'll try to fix it now
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14:17.56sysx1000CONFIG_IP_ROUTE_FWMARK is missing in kernel config
14:18.02RoyKsysx1000: btw, some people in here don't like raspbian talks, even if the problems are the same as on debian - #raspbian would be the place ;)
14:18.08RoyKah
14:18.14sysx1000it's armbian
14:18.18sysx1000not raspbian
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14:18.32RoyKoh - ok - and #armbian is rather deserted last I checked :þ
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14:18.36sysx1000(i.e. this thing is more debian than raspbian) ;)
14:18.42greycat!armbian
14:18.42dpkgArmbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for several <ARM> processors. Armbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Use https://forum.armbian.com/.
14:18.44sysx1000yeah
14:19.13RoyKuses armbian with orange pi
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14:19.26sysx1000netfilter, iproute2 however is common
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14:19.55RoyKguess you'll have to compile a new kernel, then
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14:22.20draccI can't find how to disable joypad-mouse. I've tried putting a file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d . I've looked at xinput. I can't figure this out. Please help. :(
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14:25.41jellyRoyK: "some people" in this case is defacto channel policy to route any questions from users of derivative distros to their own support place (for technical and social reasons)
14:26.47ZOP-tl;dr; I need to fully abort updating udev in a container and my dpkg/apt foo is lacking.  Accidentally did an upgrade without correctly pinning down udev and now b/c it *really* wants to finish upgrading udev I can't upgrade anything...
14:27.08ZOP-Anyone give me a clue by four to make that happen?
14:27.19jellyZOP-: which debian release?  which command is failing?
14:27.22jelly!bat
14:27.22dpkgIn order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy".  Use http://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information.  Also ask me about <localized errors>.
14:27.25jellyZOP: ^^
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14:31.57ZOPhttp://paste.debian.net/1022681/
14:32.27ZOPexcept 215-17+deb8u7 is not the version that needs pinned ... basically the config script fails because it's detecting (Rightly) it's in a container
14:32.49ZOPand since that update/install set will never complete, I can't upgrade anything until I unscrew udev
14:33.34ZOPbasically it needs to ignore the error that udev can't start.
14:33.48ZOPI added the Pin *after* I screwed up and did the upgrade
14:34.00ZOPKnew better, just forgot this old container didn't have the pin already.
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14:35.19jellyZOP: this container has sysvinit, not systemd?
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14:35.43ZOPNo, it has systemd.
14:36.11jellyZOP: does udev otherwise run at all inside that?
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14:37.27jellyif it's systemd, you might try to mask udev-finish and udev services
14:37.50jellyand this suggests it usually doesn't run at all > udev does not support containers, not started.
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14:38.33ZOPYeah I know, but, you can't have a debian system without udev b/c random packages depend against it, so I can't just remove it/purge it like one would for a "normal" screwed up postinst/configure script.
14:38.45greycatOne might also consider editing udev's postinst script and making it simply do an "exit 0", to allow the upgrade to "complete".  And then you can possibly downgrade it?
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14:38.55ZOPlike f/ex systemd rdepends on udev.
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14:40.45jellyalternatively if systemctl mask ... fails, you can try to make a policy-rc.d that ignores those two services and see if that makes dpkg happier
14:40.49jelly!policy-rc.d
14:40.49dpkg[policy-rc.d] a mechanism to limit what init scripts are run by maintainer scripts.  See http://people.debian.org/~hmh/invokerc.d-policyrc.d-specification.txt and <invoke-rc.d>.  See http://ircbots.debian.net/scripts/policy-rc.d-forbid-dpkg for an example script that disables all daemon starts and stops during package installation -- tailoring it to your needs to only skip certain daemons would be advised.
14:41.24jhutchins_wkZOP: I thought the whole point of containers was that if you mess one up you just delete it and make a new one.
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14:41.44ZOPok this gives me some places to try which is more than I had, it's the configure script thats erroring out (correctly)
14:42.01ZOPjhutchins_wk: If it wasn't anything production, yes.
14:42.17ZOPmeanwhile, in the real world, when you're running real services, you often can't do that.
14:42.43jellythen you're using containers WRONG :-D
14:43.03ZOPIt's how native zones with SmartOS work.
14:43.16ZOPDebian calls em containers/detects it as a container, but, it's not, it's really more of a VM.
14:43.18jellyor "real services" are written WRONG :-)
14:43.35ZOPYou can run in true KVM/hw-virt (under qemu) but that's really resource inefficient.
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14:43.50ZOPWhich in this case is systemd and it's dependency on udev
14:44.17ZOPand the complete lack of any thinking that lhas led Debian and other distros to using that hot steaming mess of systemd.
14:44.43jellyit's just a default, you can use sysvinit if you want to
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14:45.08ZOPIn the real world, persistent data and configuration is a thing.  Even containers as cattle requires persistent services to maintain them.
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14:46.29ZOPAaaand most services aren't container aware either.
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14:48.59ZOPAha, postinst checks if the udev-finish init is +x, so chmod -x on that, lets the install/upgrade complete *yay*
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14:49.47greycatIs this a known bug?  It sounds kinda like a bug.
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14:52.08ZOPgreycat: udev needing pinned is a known issue with containers using Debian (and Ubuntu IIRC) -- this containers base build was from *before* the fix was in the container base images.
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14:52.24ZOPthe environment is SmartOS LX Branded Zone
14:52.43ZOP(Solaris actively pretending to be a Linux kernel)
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14:55.13ZOPIt's an "old" problem...and only existed fora  short window after the deb-8 containers came out...and most of the time you ran into it before you even set anything up/used anything...this one's been in broken half-installed state for like a year, I just haven't had any time to deal with it (personal mail server)
14:55.51setuidI've found a way to pass answers to a package being installed, using debconf-set-selections before install, but what about packages that don't have interactive prompts? Do I have to use late_commands in a preseed with some sed butchery to make the changes to say... /etc/default/kdump-tools?
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14:56.14jellyZOP: pinning is likely a hack meant to avoid [re]starting the service you actually don't need.  There's probably a nicer way to achieve the same goal, that doesn't make dpkg unhappy
14:57.07ZOPjelly: yeah, make things not depend on udev that don't actually need it *looks angrily at systemd*
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14:57.17jellyZOP: I've already mentioned masking the service, or abusing policy-rc.d to make the installation scripts not
14:57.25jellystop or start anything
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14:57.38jellypinning is ugly
14:57.41ZOPThere's some other stuff too...and most of that doesn't apply to containers.  We use the "old school" makedev process.
14:57.50noodlepieFree Music available at http://www.freemusicarchive.com/ and http://libre.fm. Enjoy!
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14:58.14*** mode/#debian [+o jelly] by ChanServ
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14:58.15*** mode/#debian [-o jelly] by ChanServ
14:58.34ZOPjelly: ty for the ban hammer on the spammer :)
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14:58.54karlpincsetuid: I don't know.  I'd guess that setting selections is entirely independent of whether questions get asked.  The latter is dependent upon the questions priority and what priority level debconf is using when it runs.
14:59.49ZOPjelly: and I agree pinning is ugly.  But since udev isn't used and doesn't run, and is only installed because of systemd being the init service of choice these days.  I haven't checked in any detail the full rdeps for udev but I know it's a silly long list.  Mostly things that want it for convenience.
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15:01.00sysvalvehey everyone, question about repository/package signing and keys handling. Is it really needed a centralized unique "signing key", or is it possible to leverage the "trust" features of gpg by signing "package signers" keys by a "top-level trusted key"
15:01.06*** join/#debian imp (~imp@2804:14d:5c98:80fd:e0ff:1e62:e245:c7c5)
15:01.07jellyZOP: those should probably reduce their Depends: to Recommends:
15:01.33sysvalvethe idea is that multiple people could sign packages, but not using the "master" key. Think of doing similarly as CAs do with HTTPS certificates
15:01.40*** part/#debian combro2k (~combro2k@gateway/tor-sasl/combro2k)
15:01.40sysvalvedoes it even make sense?
15:01.42*** join/#debian nobodi (~nobodi@142.157.12.171)
15:02.01ZOPyeah, if I was actively involved in pkg maint anymore I'd be firing off patches/emails to the active maintainers.  Alas, I'm not.
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15:02.15jellyZOP: but honestly at this point if you have a static /dev you're already so far from Debian, which really stopped supporting that around debian 7 or so
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15:02.34jellyZOP: you're a user.  File bug reports.
15:02.43jellythey're actually emails.
15:03.21ZOPjelly: which is a roundabout way of saying Debian can't be used in containers lol :D
15:03.36*** join/#debian combro2k (~combro2k@gateway/tor-sasl/combro2k)
15:03.54greycatthat's not what jelly is saying... not even close
15:03.59jellyZOP: linux containers have a working udev I think
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15:04.48ZOPmaybe with Linux on Docker Linux does, dunno.
15:05.09*** join/#debian combro2k (~combro2k@gateway/tor-sasl/combro2k)
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15:05.32greycatMy only Debian-in-a-container experience is my wheezy OpenVZ VPS system, and it does not have a (visible) running udev.  Not sure how that translates to other kinds of containers.
15:05.38*** part/#debian setuid (sid191390@canonical/setuid)
15:06.17ZOPThe docker based containers I use are all much more containers, SmartOS uses them as containers but also as full up systems...IDK if they'r eth only one thats not Docker Linux though as I'm really not hip these days.
15:06.28ZOPI'm turning into a crotchety greybeard.
15:06.42*** join/#debian elevated (~elevated@unaffiliated/elevated)
15:06.56ZOPYou kids and your containers and your udev and lvm and systemd.
15:07.14*** join/#debian h20 (~IceChat9@ALamentin-651-1-90-25.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
15:07.36nkuttlerthere is #docker. what do you need udev for anyway?
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15:08.38ZOPnkuttler: I don't.
15:08.39greycatI think that's his fundamental complaint -- he *doesn't* need udev, not really, but it's a dependency of other packages, so it has to be installed, even though it does not run.
15:08.45jellyZOP: lvm is older than solaris zones, I think
15:08.47ZOPnkuttler: and neither does systemd which is why it gets installed.
15:08.55ZOPjelly: lol, no, not by a long shot.
15:08.58nkuttleryou shouldn't run systemd in docker
15:09.07ZOPIT's not docker.
15:09.11nkuttlerah
15:09.13jellyHP invented it in what... early 90s?
15:09.30ZOPjelly: I'm talking about Linux' LVM implementation.
15:09.33jellyand zones were like sunos 5.6?
15:09.36jelly5.8?
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15:10.17ZOPyeah sw based zones were later.  prior to that there was hw assisted, eg in the E10k
15:10.42*** join/#debian schu-r (~Thunderbi@82-149-107-2.wco.wellcom.at)
15:11.02ZOPCalled domains.
15:11.22ZOPAnd much lower level really when you got down to it.
15:12.35ZOPgreycat: ++  yup thats exactly it, i don't need it, nothing in a container should need it, but, lots of packages depend it.  Very few things should actually depend it IMO...just b/c you access what might be dynamic /dev entries != depend IMO...but, that's my opinion and obv. not the pkg maintainers.
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15:13.38jellyyou should proably replace the pinning hack with policy-rc.d or systemctl mask
15:14.09*** join/#debian dadinn (~DADINN@195.89.5.29)
15:14.24jellythere's also faking a package with equivs, but those probably won't be good for versioned depends
15:14.25*** join/#debian TakWah (~asfdsa@p4FE8464C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
15:14.28ZOPlike F/ex nut-server, WTF does nut-server have a hard depend on udev for.
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15:15.13jellybecause everyone knows your UPS MUST be connected via serial device and how will /dev/ttyUSB0 appear ?!?!?!
15:15.25ZOPjelly: the actual offending bit in the postinst was an update-rc.d call -- so IDK if the mask would fix that or not?  a policy against the postinst would have other consequences too I think.
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15:15.49ZOPjelly: exactly!  damn kids.  fuckin USB.  :)
15:16.23ZOP(aaaas I type on my USB3.0 das keyboard, while also copying drone footage from a 64GB microSD card)
15:16.56TakWahhi, 'service x reload|restart|start|stop', do I reload then restart or do I restart then reload, or can i reload without restarting. I am utterly confused about this, and what is being reloaded the service or the config of the service?
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15:17.22greycatTakWah: "reload" means "send a HUP signal or equivalent to the running daemon to make it re-read its configs"
15:17.28greycatTakWah: obviously not every service supports this
15:17.37ZOPTakWah: so depends a little on the service -- you *are* signalling the service to do it's reload action.  *usually* this means reread configs to the service.
15:18.08jellyZOP: update-rc.d for udev-finish would probably work if update-rc.d for udev had worked and system thought udev service was enabled
15:18.12jelly!tias
15:18.13dpkgTIAS is "Try It And See".
15:18.20TakWahthank you greycat, ZOP that's exactly what I feard, a service dependent behaviour ;)
15:18.53jellyTakWah: restart will do everything a reload does, and then some more
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15:19.17ZOPNot all daemons support dynamic reconfig...*most* do...of those that don't a "reload" may be equivalent to restart.
15:19.28ZOPAnd again, package dependent.
15:19.51ZOPIt sucks but it's mostly safe to reload when you need to reconfigure....if it doesn't support that it'll often not do anything.
15:19.54TakWahthanks jelly, knowing that saves me 2 lines of pre and post reloads ;)
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15:21.52ZOPI could go on all day with udev offenders that have a strong udev dep instead of a recommend.
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15:22.34ZOPThere's going to be stuff that yes should have a strong depend...like probably bluetooth related stuff...but ffs chrony has a udev dep.
15:22.49ZOPAnd dropbear?
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15:23.02ZOPI gotta stop.  Coz this is a deep hole.
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15:27.14jelly,depends chrony
15:27.15juddPackage chrony in stretch/amd64 -- depends: init-system-helpers (>= 1.18~), libc6 (>= 2.17), libcap2 (>= 1:2.10), libedit2 (>= 2.11-20080614), libseccomp2 (>= 2.2.3-3~), libtomcrypt0, ucf, iproute2, lsb-base, adduser, util-linux (>= 2.20.1-5).
15:27.21jellydoes not see it
15:27.39jelly,depends chrony --release jessie
15:27.40juddPackage chrony in jessie/amd64 -- depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libcap2 (>= 1:2.10), libedit2 (>= 2.11-20080614), libtomcrypt0, ucf, timelimit, install-info, net-tools, lsb-base.
15:27.50jellyZOP: maybe you just need to upgrade
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15:28.36jellyoh, there's no udev dep in jessie either
15:28.52greycat,depends chrony --release wheezy
15:28.52juddPackage chrony in wheezy/amd64 -- depends: libc6 (>= 2.7), ucf, timelimit, dpkg (>= 1.15.4) | install-info.
15:28.58greycatnone of the above!
15:29.12greycatunless it's an indirect depends...
15:29.27jellybut then it's not chrony that needs fixin
15:30.06*** join/#debian Informant (~Informant@aftr-88-217-180-17.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
15:30.27greycatwaits for the part where it's not actually Debian
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15:32.41ychaouchehello #debian
15:33.31ychaoucheI still don't understand why I have different behaviour when script is called via at and via cron. Via at it works as expected, via cron parts of the script don't work as expected. Why ? at and cron should run it under the same conditions.
15:33.46greycatWhat part doesn't work, and what is the error?
15:34.14greycatAnd no, they do NOT use the same conditions.  at(1) attempts to mimic the interactive shell environment through stupid hacks.
15:34.25greycatcron(1) runs from a more bare-bones environment.
15:34.33*** join/#debian Haxxa (~Harrison@180-150-30-18.NBN.mel.aussiebb.net)
15:34.37DammitJimman, I can't find the parameter on rsync to not pay attention to time discrepancies especially when dealing with a drive that is ntfs
15:34.39jellyat saves almost all env. vars
15:35.00greycatAnd then we got to laugh at it when it blew up after the shellshock patches.
15:35.05*** join/#debian jhutchins_wk (~jonathan@12.171.62.202)
15:35.19DammitJimany suggestions? I thought it was -I
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15:35.29ychaoucheprepares a gist
15:36.18*** join/#debian nobodi (~nobodi@142.157.12.171)
15:36.30greycatsorry, that's cron(8) but crontab(1) and crontab(5)
15:36.43jellyDammitJim: --modify-window of 2 seconds or so?
15:37.01*** mode/#debian [+l 1608] by debhelper
15:37.03DammitJimI should just format all these drives to ext4
15:37.04jellyno, that was for vfat.  ntfs is better
15:37.04DammitJim*sigh*
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15:38.53DammitJimthanks jelly... I wonder if I have another contradicting parameter
15:39.10jellyI've never tried -I and can't comment on that one
15:39.26*** join/#debian Informant (~Informant@aftr-88-217-180-17.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
15:39.56jellyare other attributes the same?  Maybe you're not ignoring something else
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15:40.32DammitJimright
15:40.39DammitJimI have to wait to test this...
15:41.28jellyoffers DammitJim a --dry-run
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15:44.43DammitJimthat was it, jelly... modify-window
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15:45.21ychaoucheah, I was missing a environement variable
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15:45.49hans_ello there
15:46.01hans_stupid irc client
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15:46.19noodlepieHiya hans_
15:46.22quilirohello
15:46.32quilirogreat distro
15:46.33greycattry uninstalling the Cockney module
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15:46.45hans_hi. my irc client made me think a several hours old message was the newest one, for a second.
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15:47.44jellyychaouche: one stupid trick admins don't want you to know!   To avoid confusion in crontab, write enviroment variable definitons with spaces  FOO = bar, so you immediately remember this is not shell
15:47.45ychaoucheI thought HexChat was decent
15:47.51quiliroi am trying to use an arduino and it would not be able to write to the serial port...but i can see ttyACM0...it is a member of the dialout group and the user is a member of that group
15:48.05quiliroi am using debian testing
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15:48.29greycathas never ever written an env var definition in a crontab
15:48.59hans_jelly, warning, ntfs-3g has some serious performance issues for bigger files, don't use it in a high intensity workload setting involving big files
15:49.24jellyychaouche: also, order matters!  If only one cron job needs special vars, put it at the end, or have a line setting up FOO = bar, then the job line, then a line resetting FOO = (nothing)
15:49.30*** join/#debian Stanley678 (~user@84.117.86.134)
15:49.44jellyhans_: good thing I don't use it at all!
15:49.46*** join/#debian dasj (~daniel@151.236.10.152)
15:49.55ychaouchejelly: ack
15:50.01greycator put "export FOO=bar; /my/job" as the crontab command
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15:50.30jellythat make cron invoke an extra shell
15:50.31twThe only common cron variable I mess with is SHELL.
15:50.31Stanley678how do i launch network manager from command line?
15:50.32greycator other variants in which the variable is on the same line as the command that needs it
15:50.41jellyWASTEFUL
15:50.52twjelly: use a shell that doesn't need 3MB of ram =p
15:51.04karlpincoften writes shell scripts in /usr/local/bin and calls them from cron instead of doing all the settings in cron
15:51.12jellytw: my /bin/sh -> mksh
15:51.27ychaouchegreycat: like VAR=val command ?
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15:51.37jellyno idea how much it uses
15:51.41ychaoucheI think I saw that read
15:51.44greycatychaouche: yes, that's one variant
15:51.58ychaoucheIFS=sep read <...>
15:52.07ychaouchewith read*
15:52.09greycatyes
15:52.10jellytw: still ugly when you see a longer-running job process tree
15:52.22jellymuch sh -c
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15:52.40karlpincquiliro: How do you know you have a problem?  What are you doing to test?
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15:53.13jellyquiliro: if you just added the user to dialout group, you need to log out and log back in
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15:53.29quilirojelly, i have
15:53.34jellygood
15:53.50quilirokarlpinc, arduino reports problem
15:54.02domovoyis there a way to avoid 'dpk-source -b package-version' updating package_version.dsc if the source haven't changed? every time i run it, the .dsc is updated, even if i haven't changed anything in the directory
15:54.04avalchevHi,
15:54.06jellyquiliro: can you talk to the device directly with minicom or screen?
15:54.09avalchevI forked boost and make some updates for version 1.67.0 and add asio and beast libraries. The result is here: https://salsa.debian.org/avalchev-guest/boost. I have problems with dpk-buildpackage command: https://salsa.debian.org/snippets/54. Do you have any idea what's wrong ?
15:54.23quilirojava.lang.NullPointerException thrown while loading gnu.io.RXTXCommDriver
15:54.47greycatwhat makes you think this NullPointerException is related to device permissions?
15:54.58quiliroi can echo "Message" > /dev/ttyACM0
15:55.01quilirowith no error
15:55.10greycatthen it does not sound like a permission problem
15:55.55quilirobut on another terminal: tail -f /dev/ttyACM0
15:56.04quilirowill not show anything
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15:56.13greycatI don't know how tail -f works on serial ports.
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15:57.03jellyquiliro: can you talk to the device using a serial terminal tool like minicom or screen?
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15:58.10quilirojelly, to test will have to disconnect my wireless dongle because i only have 1 usb port...will be back
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15:58.35jellyouch
15:58.57karlpincI have definitely done "cat /dev/Stty0".  (At least 15 years ago.)
15:59.02jellywonders which cheap board only has a single usb port
15:59.09*** join/#debian dkmdh (~dkmdh@2001:67c:1350:104::7)
15:59.12greycatttyS0 I assume
15:59.25karlpincgreycat: Yah.  (tired)
15:59.34jellyhe tried that but cat pulled the S away
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16:01.29tharkunI am shopping around for a new vps. Any recomendations?
16:03.42*** join/#debian quiliro (~quiliro@186.71.88.176)
16:04.16jellytharkun: ask in #debian-offtopic please.  budget/size/performance/network limits?
16:04.50soulzmoonboot
16:06.04Stanley678how do i launch network manager from terminal?
16:06.18jellynmcli  ?
16:06.36*** join/#debian EvanCarroll (~ecarroll@96.73.119.212)
16:06.43EvanCarrollhttps://unix.stackexchange.com/q/440945/3285
16:07.15Stanley678jelly: http://paste.debian.net/1022691/
16:07.37jellyStanley678: looks like it worked?
16:07.46jellyI don't know how to use it.
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16:08.06Stanley678jelly: it didnt launch no NM. it hows that wicd is working. but i want NM instead
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16:08.34quiliroStanley678, stop wicd first
16:08.46hanshenrikholy s, > Ryzen CPU caution: The AMD Ryzen 5 and 7 CPUs sold up until at least November 2017 have serious bugs which make any software run very unreliably. One experiences spurious segfaults and system hangs from building as well as running GMP (or any other CPU intensive stuff). As of 2017-11-25 AMD still refuses to recall faulty CPUs. Instead, they replace CPUs on a case-by-case basis after asking each customer to run in exhausting
16:08.46hanshenrikcircles for a few weeks. They have invented a newspeak term for these bugs, Performance Marginality Problem.
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16:08.52quilirosudo systemctl ....
16:09.14hanshenrikand AMD is not being sued? the tech community are not outraged?
16:09.17Stanley678guideline: and how do i launch a NM gui ?
16:09.19jellyhanshenrik: ##hardware is over there -> and #debian-offtopic, too
16:09.34jellyhanshenrik: keep comments in here to debian tech support issues.
16:09.56quilirojelly, i cannot use minicom
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16:10.53jellyquiliro: how does it fail?  I assume you set up serial port settings correctly first
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16:11.46quilirojelly, it says /dev/modem does not exist
16:12.01greycatdoes it?
16:12.24quiliroln -s /dev/ttyACM0 /dev/modem
16:12.28quilirowith sudo
16:12.30jellyquiliro: run "minicom -s" first, pick the right /dev/ttyWhatevs
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16:16.08jhutchins_wkStanley678: What DE?
16:16.30jhutchins_wkStanley678: Make sure you disable/remove wicd before you try to get NM working.
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16:17.53quilirojelly, could connect with minicom...
16:18.14jellyquiliro: good, did you also try with normal user
16:18.21jellynot sudo
16:18.28quilirono sudo
16:18.48quilirobut how can i communicate with bash
16:18.52jellythen I guess it's not permissions and it's not arduino's fault
16:19.02quilirojelly, true
16:20.07jellyquiliro: doing serial in shell is a PITA that requires careful setting of serial/terminal line settings with stty, why would you want to do that
16:20.09quilirojelly, now how can i communicate with arduino ide or bash?
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16:21.28jellyI have no experience with arduino ide.  If you send one over here I can try it.
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16:22.18quilirojelly, sudo apt install arduino
16:22.42jellyI don't have an arduino.
16:22.56jellyIf you send one over here I can try it.
16:23.05quilirojelly: oh!  where are you?
16:23.14jellycroatia
16:23.31quilirojelly: it is easy to make one! i will send you the link
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16:24.09jellyhopes it's free
16:24.31bitesyou bought an atmega chip and built it yourself or do you use an official arduino?
16:24.35jellywith free shipping, and magically makes free time in jelly's day
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16:32.34quarterbackHi, I have debian installed, now I had set it up to boot in verbose mode. One thing I had seen is that it first boots in verbose mode in text mode and then switches to verbose boot in graphical mode. How to make debian boot entirely in verbose graphical mode? Is it possible like other distros?
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16:34.22RoyKquarterback: iirc removing 'quiet' in the kernel line in the grub config should do it
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16:35.21quarterbackRoyK, Yes, I did that.Now, it boots in text mode for a few seconds. The screen is cleared, then it boots in graphical mode displaying verbose messages. I want to make it boot entirely in graphical mode displaying verbose messages. Is it possible?
16:36.15quarterbackRoyK, It boots displaying some messages in text mode, then screen is cleared, it boots in graphical mode displaying the rest of boot messages. This seems a bit weird.
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16:38.33quarterbackThere is some interruption during boot at which the screen is cleared after which it resumes but in graphical mode. It would have been nice to boot entirely in graphical mode.
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16:38.50quarterbackI had seen this in knoppix, a variant of debian.
16:39.49RoyKquarterback: can you pastebin the contents of the grub config? and - did you run update-grub after modifying the file?
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16:40.39quarterbackRoyK, Yes I did update-grub after that.
16:41.47karlpincIs there an easy way to alter an image (trivally, but differently) from the command line?  I'm sick of going into gnome and typing some text on top of an image to make a new image file with a different md5 hash.
16:42.11quiliroi have an arduino...but it is possible to make a clone for 1 or 2 dollars
16:42.27quiliroi think it is called a sachakit
16:42.33quiliroi cannot find it now
16:42.38quiliroi am searching
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16:42.47quilirobut that is OT
16:42.53RoyKquiliro: not really debian-related - try #arduino ;)
16:42.58quiliroin this chatroom
16:43.25quiliroRoyK, i agree
16:43.43quarterbackRoyK, https://paste.debian.net/1022697/ contents of grub file
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16:45.03jellyquarterback: in general no, even knoppix switches graphical mode, but it probably does that so early you don't notice
16:45.43quarterbackjelly, Ah I see. is there a way to make debian boot entirely in graphical mode from the beginning?
16:45.57RoyKquarterback: should suffice
16:46.01quiliroRoyK, it is not an arduino thing...it works with debian 9 32 bit
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16:46.18RoyKquiliro: and now you're running what?
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16:46.29jellyquarterback: sure but it's not worth the hassle
16:46.39quilirobut it does not with debian 9 64 bit
16:46.47quarterbackjelly, When I have plenty of time, I like to explore in this area.
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16:47.28RoyKquiliro: try something like 'screen /dev/ttyS(whatever) 9600' (or whatever baud rait you're using - I haven't used minicom for years)
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16:47.59jellyquarterback: one thing that can be done is to configure initramfs image to load relevant framebuffer kernel driver, instead of letting the boot process do that.  This will break if you switch GPU card to a different vendor
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16:48.31quarterbackjelly, I dont plan to change the gpu card. This is already an older board.
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16:48.45quarterbackjelly, The graphics are onboard.
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16:49.05karlpincquarterback: You can also (probably) send the textual output somewhere where you don't see it, like the serial port.  But then if something breaks badly you'll have no clue how to fix it because you won't see anything.
16:49.08jellyquarterback: another thing that can be done is to use UEFI framebuffer, but I don't know whether that breaks X afterwards
16:49.29jellyquarterback: why do you want to do this?
16:50.03quarterbackjelly, Just to have a nicer appearance during boot.
16:50.10karlpincsuggests waiting to turn on the monitor until _after_ the box has booted. :)
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16:50.36quarterbackkarlpinc, That could work for now :)
16:50.43jellykarlpinc: that can actually make a fb driver do stupid things like assume 1024x768 instead of using monitor's native res
16:51.08RoyKanyone using python in here? ;) https://xkcd.com/1987/
16:51.43jelly!slap RoyK
16:51.44dpkgstrikes a resounding *THWAP* across RoyK's face
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16:52.18winfreakRoyK: Seen that picture and it's sad how accurate that picture is
16:52.19quarterbackjelly, brb, I have to check how it boots now. Changed GFX mode in grub.
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16:52.30winfreakand pipenv is even missing in this
16:53.12jelly(also missing: pyenv)
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16:54.02winfreakwhich brings up another xkcd: https://xkcd.com/927/
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16:54.45RoyKwinfreak: yes...
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16:55.17jellyunless you're Randall Munroe and have written your Debian support question as a comic, your permission to post xkcd links in here is revoked
16:56.38RoyKjelly: I know, but I don't only post offtopic things in here - I usually help out a lot, so I thought a wee bit off oftopicness can't hurt too much ;)
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16:57.33annadanejelly's just a spoilsport
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16:57.36jelly!offtopic
16:57.36dpkg#debian is primarily a support channel for Debian users.  Please keep the discussions in #debian on-topic and take longer discussions and non-support questions to #debian-offtopic.  Imagine the chaos if each of the hundreds of people in the channel felt the need to wander off topic for a few minutes every day.
16:58.29jellyso yeah, I also do random !qotd0 in here sometimes but only if there's not been any questions for a while (say, 15 minutes or an hour)
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16:59.24annadanenevertheless thanks RoyK for a new xkcd i haven
16:59.27annadane't seen yet
16:59.43jellyquarterback: changing graphic mode in grub works only for grub, at least grub-mbr is like that
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17:00.11quarterbackjelly, Yes, the font size changed during display of grub boot list.
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17:00.23jellyyay.
17:00.42quarterbackThe grub screen looks better now.
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17:01.43jellyquarterback: you can figure out which fb driver linux (kernel) uses from dmesg output.  dmesg | grep fb
17:01.50jelly[    7.945980] i915 0000:00:02.0: fb0: inteldrmfb frame buffer device
17:01.59kwamekwamejr: o/
17:02.45jellyquarterback: and then add that one to initramfs
17:03.59jellyquarterback: /etc/initramfs-tools/modules
17:04.07quarterbackjelly, I can post the output of  dmesg | grep fb
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17:04.23jellysure, use a pastebin like paste.debian.net
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17:04.34jellyin my case it's "i915"
17:05.46quarterbackjelly, http://paste.debian.net/1022698/ . Yes its i915 or Intel Corporation 82Q35 Express Integrated Graphics
17:05.47jellythere's a "Console: switching to colour frame buffer device ..." line nearby
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17:06.33quarterbackjelly, how much memory does my GPU have?
17:07.09*** join/#debian hypn0 (~h@unaffiliated/hypn0)
17:07.28quarterbackjelly, http://paste.debian.net/1022699/
17:07.51jellyquarterback: intel embedded gpu steals main memory
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17:08.44snuggerWhat's a fast, feature-rich but minimal shell?
17:08.53quarterbackjelly, Yes, I have 4gb which is ddr2, 0 swap right now. About 2.9 GB is available.
17:09.02quarterbacksnugger, xterm?
17:09.03Tenkawasnugger: dash
17:09.17snuggerquarterback: ...
17:09.17Tenkawaconsole or x?
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17:09.32greycatxterm is a terminal emulator, not a shell
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17:09.53quarterbackgreycat, Then i use terminal, which seems like the default shell program on debian.
17:10.03Tenkawadash usually works well
17:10.08Tenkawafor me
17:10.10greycatalso, "feature-rich" and "minimal" are polar opposites
17:10.36greycatBut seriously, you *MUST* learn the difference between the terminal emulator and the shell.
17:10.52snuggergreycat: There comes a point when something has too many features
17:10.57snuggerAnd sometimes something has too less
17:11.04karlpincsnugger: emacs ;-)
17:11.07snuggerIt's hard coming across something that gets the right balance
17:11.09quarterbackgreycat, I am familiar with bash shell. Have to know the details though.
17:11.17snuggerkarlpinc: That's already my window manager
17:11.31snuggerkarlpinc: I'm in constant pain. I don't know Lisp
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17:11.35greycatsnugger: well, multiple options exist because everyone has a different opinion.  So you'll have to try a bunch of them and pick what YOU like.
17:12.23quarterbacksnugger, Seems like you will have lot options for your problem.
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17:12.40annadanesnugger, fish has good autocompletion
17:12.47EvanCarrollHaving a problem recovering with an autoremove after a segfault, debian shows no work to be done on subsequent autoremoves but all the packages are still there, https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/440945/3285
17:12.49annadaneand i think people like zsh/oh-my-zsh
17:12.55greycatFor actual shells, most people in #debian use either bash or zsh.
17:13.12annadaneoh-my-zsh isn't in debian, you probably have to compile it from github or something
17:13.19greycatFor terminal emulators, it's all over the map.  xterm, rxvt-unicode, gnome-terminal, whatever i3 uses by default, etc.
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17:17.07karlpincannadane: If I want it to "just run" I write in Posix shell (dash).  Every now and then some special feature is needed in which case I use bash.  zsh is just an excuse to do something different.  If you need something "better", don't write your script in shell.
17:17.43karlpincAnd get off my lawn! ;)
17:17.54annadaneyeah, a shell expert i am not
17:17.59greycatThat's great advice for script-writing.  But interactive use is a different matter.
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17:19.57karlpincgreycat: True enough.  But I don't need to clutter my brain with yet another set of shell variations just to be able to type commands.
17:20.27annadanei know for fish there's something you can do to use bash commands in fish
17:20.41annadanethere's a particular thing that works in bash but not in fish which i can now no longer remeember
17:20.42annadaneremember
17:20.46greycat!start a shell war
17:20.46dpkgbash sucks!
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17:20.58annadanealiases maybe?
17:21.00diver47Hi, are the ATI/AMD Crimson (ex-Catalyst) proprietary driver binaries packaged in the firmware-amd-graphics nonfree package?
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17:21.24greycatannadane: even POSIX sh has functions and aliases
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17:24.03jellyannadane: oh-my-zsh leans very close to curl | sudo zsh, do you trust random people with git commit privileges not to mess up your shell
17:24.19annadanenot at all and that is indeed my issue with some github projects
17:24.20jellyit's not necessary
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17:25.23annadaneit's certainly one of those things like bitcoin which is very hyped up
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17:26.30quarterbackin russia it is, not elsewhere.
17:26.33greycatdiver47: the firmware-* packages only contain firmware, not drivers.  They're very different things.  Firmware is downloaded *into* the device itself by the OS during boot.
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17:28.17greycatAs for installing Catalyst/fglrx/amdgpu ... sorry, I don't know how to do that.  But someone else probably does.
17:28.32diver47greycat: oh, thank you for the remark :) I need to install Crimson manually then, but it seems that it only supports ubnutu and redhat ...
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17:28.49annadanesnorts derisively
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17:29.06greycatInstalling video drivers from outside of Debian is often a bad idea, so I'd wait for someone who knows this topic.
17:29.06jellykarlpinc: zsh was a great tool back when bash had no programmable completion and crappy syntax sugar, so like 20 years back
17:29.24annadanebut yeah i'd say unless you have a reason not to use bash... use bash
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17:29.49annadaneor at least know the differences between arbitrarily choosing different shells
17:30.26jellyright now there's no real significant value in switching from bash to zsh or vice versa if you're already used to one
17:30.37greycatTypically you shouldn't look at zsh until you've completely mastered bash and have found that you actually want something that zsh adds that bash doesn't have yet.
17:30.57jellyI like its find-replacement syntax
17:31.00diver47greycat: ok :) I'll wait then
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17:31.09jellyand that's pretty much the one thing that comes to mind
17:31.24greycatDo you mean **/* ?  Bash has that now.
17:31.24annadanei enjoyed fish from what limited use i had of it
17:31.43annadanebut it's just... meh
17:31.52annadaneone more thing to learn
17:32.01jellygreycat: not just recursion, want regular files with mtime less than a week *(.m-7)
17:32.07greycatah
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17:32.11greycatno, bash doesn't have that
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17:35.23jellyand I can't think of any other thing that I'd actually use.  Lots of fancy useless stuff, like bash' /dev/tcp/
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17:36.57jellya couple more sane defaults, but all of those can be fixed in bash, and there are some defaults that bash does better, too
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17:42.55quilirojelly, sent you pm with arduino making links
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17:46.25jellythanks!  Not that I'll make time to make one
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17:52.19diver47how can I explicitly  check if I am using the nonfree driver for AMD graphics already?
17:52.48diver47typing "glxinfo |grep OpenGL" in the terminal gives "OpenGL renderer string: AMD OLAND (DRM 2.50.0 / 4.15.0-3-amd64, LLVM 5.0.1)'
17:52.50greycatWhichever driver you see the *most* of in the Xorg log file....
17:53.04petn-randallheh
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18:05.34segwenthi .. sorry if this is OT but i don't know where else to go .. so, here is the problem:
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18:06.15segwenti have debian-8 running iceweasel over an ssh connection and it works as well as if I were sitting at the machine
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18:07.02segwenti now have debian-9 and exactly the same setup (where possible) and yet running firefox-esr over anssh connection renders firefox completely unusable
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18:07.17segwentthe same is true for all other distros which I have tried
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18:07.50segwent*only* debian-8 is capable of running a window app in X at a suitable rate to be able to use
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18:08.37greycatIt's not just "a window app".  It's a freakin' modern web browser.
18:09.13segwentgreycat: suure, i understand this is extremely complex .. but debian-8 works and nothing else does
18:09.56jomat16:51:43│ jelly> !slap RoyK
18:09.56jomat16:51:44│ * dpkg strikes a resounding *THWAP* across RoyK's face
18:10.01greycatFirst thing that comes to mind is the version of firefox-esr.  Second thing, whether you used compression with your ssh -X.  Third thing, whether the browser is using any advanced features of GPU.
18:10.05jomatups, sorry
18:11.06greycatFourth thing, whether the *window manager* is doing compositing or any other fancy-schmancy stuff that I don't understand or want to understand.
18:11.44petn-randallsegwent: I'm fairly sure modern firefoxes uses hardware acceleration to render the window, that doesn't work with X forwarding.
18:12.07petn-randallsegwent: If you want to use firefox (or any other thing for that matter) remotely, better set up a VNC/RDP server.
18:12.14greycatI don't know whether that's true for the browser UI itself, or only for specific pages.
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18:13.25mutantefirefox -no-xshm   ?
18:13.50jelly,v firefox-esr
18:13.51juddPackage: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie-backports/firefox-release: 52.1.0esr-1~bpo80+1; jessie: 52.5.0esr-1~deb8u1; stretch: 52.6.0esr-1~deb9u1; wheezy-security: 52.7.3esr-1~deb7u1; jessie-proposed-updates: 52.7.3esr-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 52.7.3esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 52.7.3esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 52.7.3esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 52.7.3esr-1; sid: 52.7.3esr-1
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18:14.36jellysegwent: a silly thing you might try is debian 9 but with firefox-esr from debian 8, ie. version 52.7.3esr-1~deb8u1;
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18:14.58jellysegwent: it's quite possible there's a difference in how the two are built
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18:16.07karlpincI've not been paying attention.  But I am always bumping into having to use --no-remote with firefox to keep it from just making a new window for an already running process.  FWIW
18:16.09jellysegwent: which OS do you have on the ssh client / X server side?
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18:21.58scwizardwhy is php-gettext now called php-php-gettext ?
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18:22.33scwizardhttps://packages.debian.org/stretch/php-gettext
18:22.33Guest32218when preseeding an ISO, the instructions at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed/EditIso specify that i should use the echo command and feed that into cpio. This does not make sense. that would only only preseeed.cfg not the actual file onto initrd right?
18:22.43segwenthi again.. sorry for the delay, i was afk .. i did not expect so many answers or info ! :)
18:23.10Guest32218i tried replacing echo with cat but that doesn't seem to work
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18:24.12annadaneoh btw, this is like days later but i asked a question here... days ago... in which i asked for a good pdf signing tool, and i've just discovered xournal, in case anyone is interested
18:24.23annadaneseems to do the job
18:24.54ZitZhi there, is there anything wrong with the repos right now? I get 403 when it tries to fetch the en translation?
18:25.22greycatWait and try again, or try a different mirror.
18:25.43ZitZdid both
18:25.50petn-randallscwizard: Probably for consistency.
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18:26.10petn-randallscwizard: All packages are php-<upstream name>
18:27.09jhutchins_wk!mirror status
18:27.09dpkgDebian mirrors have timestamp files we use to determine how recently they have been updated.  Here are some statistics the mirror maintainers provide:  http://mirror.debian.org/status.html and http://ftp.de.debian.org/dmc/today/  Ask me about <mirrors>.  #debian-mirrors on irc.oftc.net.
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18:27.52tw,v freecad
18:27.54juddPackage: freecad on amd64 -- wheezy-backports: 0.14.3702+dfsg-3~bpo70+1; jessie: 0.14.3702+dfsg-3; jessie-backports: 0.16+dfsg2-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 0.16+dfsg2-3; sid: 0.16.6712+dfsg1-1+b2
18:28.28ZitZunless my work connection is doing something weird, i should check from home first
18:29.43ZitZbut i always switch to the default debian mirror to see if it's the mirror first and multiple mirrors exhibit the same issue
18:29.46segwentjelly: firefox version on deb8 is actually ESR 45.9.0 .. i did not realise it was so old
18:30.32scwizardhow come it says php-gettext isn't found
18:30.33scwizardhttps://pastebin.com/raw/y4pTBPpv
18:30.38scwizardphp-gettext is a jessie package
18:30.40scwizardand I'm on jessie
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18:30.44greycatZitZ: well, it's not happening for me
18:30.54petn-randall,v php-gettext
18:30.55juddPackage: php-gettext on amd64 -- jessie: 1.0.11-1; wheezy: 1.0.11-1; buster: 1.0.12-0.1; sid: 1.0.12-0.1; stretch: 1.0.12-0.1
18:30.56segwentjelly: client (where i sit) is linux mint 17.2
18:31.06scwizardpetn-randall: see
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18:31.07ZitZi'll wait till i get home, that'll give me another data point.
18:31.53petn-randall!bat
18:31.53dpkgIn order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy".  Use http://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information.  Also ask me about <localized errors>.
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18:32.05petn-randallscwizard: Can you provide all the info above in a single paste? ^^^
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18:32.35jellysegwent: eh, 45ESR was more responsive even for local use.
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18:32.59scwizardok 1 is done
18:32.59segwentjelly: sounds like i am on a lossing battle to me :(
18:33.01scwizardlet me send 2 and 3
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18:33.52jellysegwent: I don't know what I'm going to do when 52ESR is gone, all alternative vertical tabs are horrible in 59ESR
18:34.42scwizardpetn-randall: here's #2 https://pastebin.com/raw/yCcYwK1X
18:34.46jellypossibly try Opera again.  It introduced the feature, and who knows, maybe whoever took the brand remembers that
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18:36.13scwizardpetn-randall: #3 https://pastebin.com/raw/YNFwN6uA
18:36.17scwizardis there any other info you need?
18:36.35segwentjelly: i think i will try your idea about rolling back to a real early version.  I guess my use case is not a popular choice and probably will not get much interest
18:36.50dionysus69hey all
18:36.52segwentthanks for your help :)
18:36.56jellysegwent: just don't use it for sites on public internet
18:36.59dionysus69I am kinda bored of gnome 3
18:37.10dionysus69so I am looking into some recommendations
18:37.15segwentjelly: yeah .. i know ;)
18:37.16dionysus69what do you guys use ? :)
18:37.30dionysus69KDE vs XFCE? or something else?
18:37.36greycatno desktop environment at all; just a window manager
18:37.42dionysus69hmm???
18:37.46ZitZi use tmux
18:37.58scwizardhmm
18:38.06dionysus69greycat: what do you mean, do you do everything in terminal?
18:38.06scwizardmaybe package pinning has somethin to do with this?
18:38.18scwizardphp-gettext is a "pinned package" and I'm not sure what that menas
18:38.20greycatNo, I use X with a normal window manager, NOT a desktop environmenty.
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18:39.35dionysus69greycat: can you elaborate on that plz? if you have a free minute? :) do you mean xorg + just a window manager? nautilus?
18:39.40ZitZi normally just use tmux, but i have kde there if i need it. Makes no sense not to, disk space is so cheap.
18:39.41annadanei am going to refer to them as desktop environmenties from now on
18:39.43segwentgreycat: do you use firefox under X like me ?
18:39.44dionysus69and what about other stuff one may need?
18:40.13greycatI use both firefox-esr and google-chrome.
18:40.19annadanedionysus69, i like MATE, which is a fork of gnome 2
18:40.27annadanepretty lightweight and user friendly
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18:40.42dionysus69ZitZ: is tmux like terminator? I use terminator, but if you boot and terminal is the only thing you get, I dont get it, what about browser or file manager and stuff like that
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18:40.52greycattmux is like screen
18:41.00dionysus69greycat: go with latest firefox, esr sucks :D
18:41.24ZitZfile manager = mignightcommander, browser i switch over to kde and use firefox, but console browsers exist, like elinks
18:41.26dionysus69esr is for libraries I imagine or very enterprise envs
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18:41.39ZitZtmux is like terminator, except it isn't an X app
18:42.05dionysus69never seen a console browser, does it have everything regular browser does or it's just for text?
18:42.38greycatA window manager lets you resize windows, move them around, change which one is "on top" of the others, possibly introduce multiple workspaces, etc.  That's all you really need, and for the first decade or so of X's existence, that's all anyone had.
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18:42.42dionysus69and everything is happening in the terminal? you boot up and all u see is grid of terminals ? :D
18:42.42winfreakdionysus69: Just doing text.
18:42.55greycatA desktop environment adds another few hundred megabytes of crap on top of that.
18:43.08ZitZtmux has hotkeys, and basically you switch between tabbed terminals
18:43.30greycatdionysus69: that's i3
18:43.31dionysus69like what kind of crap?
18:43.45ZitZmost console browsers don't do javascript. but i think elinks has a framebuffer mode and you can get mouse support and javascript to some degree
18:43.48scwizardblehhhh
18:43.50scwizardondrej
18:44.04dionysus69ugh I got confused now
18:44.13dionysus69what's the learning curve of your setup
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18:44.28scwizardondrej screwed me over before I don't wanna use his ppa
18:44.37dionysus69greycat can you take a screenshot of your screen or you Zitz, so I get an idea what I am dealing with ? :D
18:44.39greycatI don't use i3 (but I do use i3lock as a replacement for xlock which was removed).
18:44.45annadaneno, do not use PPAs in debian
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18:45.23dionysus69but I assume I will be going with KDE or xfce in the end
18:45.29greycatI use fvwm, which is a very traditional window manager.  Just a border around windows so they can be moved and resized, and multiple workspaces, and not a whole lot more.
18:45.42dionysus69I am a web developer, can't be too close to the source
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18:45.52hypn0dionysus69: you can search images
18:45.53winfreakdionysus69: I guess that depends on how much you've already done with the terminal only. Probably a good starting point would be to get started using tmux under GNOME where you slowly start doing everything with terminal apps
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18:46.13winfreakthen just reduce your env until it's the most minimal you need
18:46.16winfreak(including no gnome)
18:46.21dionysus69hmm
18:46.26dionysus69vim seems too hard
18:46.31twdionysus69: common components of a DE include root desktop icon manager, notification/bubble, integrated file browser, often-unified environment config, tray, toolbar, launcher.
18:46.34dionysus69sublime 4 ever xD
18:46.35scwizardannadane: basically he "depreciated" a ppa, but the system he had for upgrading it to the new ppa was broken as fuck, and it screwed us over
18:46.45scwizardnow I'm really skeptical of third party ppas
18:47.00scwizardlike he didn't just stop maintaining a ppa, he broke it on purpose so that you'd have to upgrade to his new one
18:47.10winfreakdionysus69: I really don't get why you'd want all of this all of the sudden - what is the problem you try to solve?
18:47.28winfreak(especially as someone who is probably a GUI heavy user)
18:47.30dionysus69I dont trust ubuntu ppas, I always prefer debian repo or downloading source or a deb package
18:47.48dionysus69winfreak: boredom? gnome 3 seems like takes too much ram
18:48.01dionysus69I am low on ram nowadays, 8gb getting filled up quick
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18:48.13scwizardactually I'll make an exception
18:48.18scwizardI trust PPAs from real companies
18:48.25winfreakdionysus69: Then start off with LXDE or Xfce.
18:48.28scwizardlike the docker repo for installing docker
18:48.30scwizarddocker is a real company
18:48.30hypn0doing what dionysus69
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18:48.38scwizardOndřej Surý is not a real company
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18:49.10ZitZhttps://imgur.com/a/usjCDVD
18:49.10jellybut he is a debian developer
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18:49.38ZitZmy tmux status also has my external ip shown, but i scrubbed that out
18:50.00dionysus69haha that's so cute, looks too matrix like :D
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18:50.25winfreakmatrix like? m(
18:50.26ZitZyeah, i'm the only one on my team deving on linux, and i'm fine with that.
18:50.30thesebhelp! shell puzzle....I defined E="-i /home/cs/.ssh/etcplanet.pem cs@etcplanet.org" in .zshrc...however...when I do ssh $E I get the following error... Warning: Identity file  '/home/cs/.ssh/etcplanet.pem' cs@etcplanet.org not accessible: No such file or directory. It is behaving like it is *ignoring* the quotes around the PEM file and taking entire $E as the -i arg..why?
18:50.55ZitZthe learning curve isn't too bad after you learn vim, because most apps either mirror vim keybindings, or have a setting to switch it
18:51.07ZitZthen just pull in your dotfiles and your setup can move to any machine you work on
18:51.10scwizardjelly: I know he's a debian developer, and I appreciate the work he's done but
18:51.16greycattheseb: the warning shows '/home/cs/.ssh/etcplanet.pem' so no, it's not doing what you said
18:51.21scwizardin practice I got screwed by the "ppa depreciation" he pulled off
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18:52.33twtheseb: #1, if you want it to split -i and that file, you have to quote it differently. #2, I don't think openssh is going to accept your PEM identity file.
18:53.15dionysus69winfreak: yea, like a dev screen in matrix movie xD
18:53.39winfreakdionysus69: You could also try out learning emacs and emacs-lisp all the things ;-)
18:53.50greycattw: if that's true, then he lied about his Warning message.
18:53.55dionysus69oh come on now the emacs guy comes around :D
18:54.10thesebtw: 1. how quote it right? 2. the pem file works if I don't use the $E
18:54.14winfreakI'm not an emacs guy, but it's another possible solution for a super minimal terminal only setup
18:54.32greycatIf the warning message had said "Warning: Identity file '/home/cs/.ssh/etcplanet.pem cs@etcplanet.org' ...
18:54.46dionysus69nah, not looking for that :D too much to handle, I need to be a systems dev for that :)
18:55.00greycattheseb: If tw's correct then you have a zsh variable expansion question, so ask #zsh.
18:55.10dionysus69I think bash is a very ugly scripting language, worse than javascript
18:55.15winfreaknot at all, actually. but yeah.
18:55.16dionysus69ruby dev here xD
18:55.26greycattheseb: or better still, set up the IdentifyFile for a Host in your ~/.ssh/config so you don't have to do this at the shell level
18:55.27winfreakEmacs LISP is, as the name implies, not bash.
18:55.32petn-randallscwizard: Yes, your pinning is broken.
18:56.20twtheseb: I'd probably end up with something like E=( -i /identity/file user@host ) ; ssh "${E[@]}"
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18:56.40thesebgreycat: thanks
18:56.43twor better, use the ~/.ssh/config file for it's purpose.
18:56.48thesebtw: wow...so much firepower needed for this
18:56.55thesebtw: i'll look into config
18:56.57dionysus69what is Emacs LISP? I know emacs is a text editor, or some other people call it, an OS
18:56.59dionysus69:D
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18:57.13scwizardpetn-randall: in the name of expedience I've been using some random person's docker image
18:57.25scwizardsince I don't have ci/cd set up for docker images yet
18:57.35winfreakdionysus69: emacs is primarily the emulator for a Lisp Machine that happens to run an editor
18:57.44winfreakwritten in lisp
18:57.45scwizardand now I'm running into the debt that I took out
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18:58.03winfreakbut I guess that goes too far for #debian so we could either hop off to #debian-offtopic
18:58.14winfreakor just ...stop it :D
18:59.02annadanei believe emacs uses elisp, not lisp itself
18:59.26winfreakelisp is just another lisp dialect. but yes.
18:59.32winfreak(elisp = emacs lisp)
18:59.44dionysus69ok winfreak that's enough info for today :) we can stop it, and thanks for the insight all of you
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19:09.56thesebtw, greycat: fwiw...this zsh freakshow nails it.. E=( "-i" "/home/cs/.ssh/etcplanet.pem" "cs@etcplanet.org" )
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19:11.11greycattheseb: I also independently confirmed that in a default zsh interactive shell, word splitting isn't done on variables with spaces in them.
19:11.40greycatso I'm guessing you retyped your error message (incorrectly) instead of pasting it
19:11.55tw^- also my guess, or your E was set to a different value than you provided.
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19:13.01thesebgreycat: nope pasted everythhing
19:13.12thesebhttps://pastebin.com/DXLst3Qc
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19:13.39thesebbut anyhoo..thanks again for all the help...it was most enlightening...don't know if i have new respect for the shell or i should be terrified of it now
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19:14.07greycattheseb: oh, **YOU** put the literal single quotes inside $E during an X-Y journey
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19:15.03greycatI assumed they were part of the error message, but no, they were part of your input data
19:15.15twyeah, and it interprets the space after -i as part of the id file name
19:15.43greycatI also learned how to make my zsh prompt NOT be colored, so now I can actually type "zsh" without wanting to hit Ctrl-D as quickly as possible.
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19:18.45twtheseb: So to be specific, that's creating an array of arguments, individually quoted or escaped, and passing them separately to the called program as different arguments.
19:19.21twAs I recall, straight `program $E` is a zsh-ism.
19:19.57greycatzsh probably has some way to force word-splitting of a single string variable (sh compat) -- ask #zsh how to do it
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19:24.34thesebtw, greycat: here is one more fwiw-ism.......echo $E didn't help with debugging but set -x revealing the smoking gun
19:24.38thesebever heard of set -x?
19:24.45thesebit is more revealing that echo
19:24.47twyeah, it works everywhere.
19:24.49thesebtell a friend
19:24.51thesebthat is all i have
19:25.09greycatI have an "args" command that I use for testing this kind of thing.
19:25.40greycathttp://paste.debian.net/1022728/
19:26.03greycatBut sure, -x is good too.
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19:27.49scwizardbleh
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19:28.02scwizardmy boss is like "just use ondrej's ppa"
19:28.07scwizardand like I get the logic but I still don't like it
19:29.57scwizardI'd really prefer just going with php 7.0 but he says "I can't guarantee we're not using 7.1 features"
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19:50.45hypn0I thought ppas were for ubuntu, not debian
19:51.05greycatunfortunately we get a lot of ubuntu or former-ubuntu users here...
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20:09.24scwizardhypn0 greycat: ubuntu ppas are compatableish with debian so
20:09.33annadaneno, they're not
20:09.49scwizardhow so exactly?
20:09.52greycat!ppa
20:09.53dpkg[ppa] Personal Package Archive (see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas or <launchpad>).  PPAs are either: (a) an easy way to grab packages based on nightly-builds/VCS snapshots or (b) an easy way for any idiot to publish a package of extremely poor quality (remember, you will run the maintainer scripts as root during install!).  Choose your repos wisely.  No equivalent exists for Debian yet.  Ask me about <why not use a ppa>.
20:09.54scwizardi thought they were
20:10.17scwizardgreycat: yeah b
20:10.30scwizardalthough people tell me that ondrej isn't an idiot and his packages are decent quality
20:10.57greycatwhether any particular third-party repo is "safe" with any particular version of Debian is up to you to decide
20:10.59annadanei have no idea who ondrej is or why you keep going on about them
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20:11.13RoyKscwizard: better use docker to isolate those
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20:11.15blotek#join #ubuntu
20:11.23annadanetry /join #ubuntu, blotek
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20:12.30blotekannadane, sorry ;)
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20:13.24scwizardgreycat: would you say that it's safer to use said third party repo with ubuntu than with debian?
20:13.34greycatAsk #ubuntu
20:13.35scwizardthird party repo in question: https://launchpad.net/~ondrej/+archive/ubuntu/php
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20:14.01annadane!don't break debian
20:14.01dpkgextra, extra, read all about it, dont break debian is https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
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20:15.46scwizardas I said, using this guy's PPA isn't my preference, I had bad experience with it before
20:16.15scwizardbut sometimes people want things done fast instead of right
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20:16.51AndreasLutroondrej has plain debian repositories, why do you want to use the ppa?
20:16.58scwizardwiat what
20:17.02scwizardwhat waht's the difference i'm confuse
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20:17.41scwizardahh i see
20:17.44AndreasLutroPPAs are (always?) made for ubuntu and often break on debian
20:17.46scwizardon his site he links to a "dba" and a "ppa"
20:17.47greycatRead the URL.  See where it says "ubuntu/ppa"?
20:17.56greycaterr sorry, that's ubuntu/php
20:18.17scwizardAndreasLutro: thanks that was really useful
20:18.29blotekthere's new php in debian mainline so I don't get what's the problem there;)_
20:18.34AndreasLutrohttps://packages.sury.org/php/README.txt
20:18.47AndreasLutrostill, use at your own risk of course
20:18.51scwizardblotek: my boss told me "we can't guarantee we aren't using 7.1 features"
20:19.04scwizardi think that's fucking silly, but *shrug*
20:19.32AndreasLutroisn't silly to keep up with programming language versions. though docker is the preferred method these days
20:19.45blotekscwizard, sounds silly :D
20:19.58greycatPHP is silly.
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20:20.18scwizardAndreasLutro: i think it's perfectly fine to upgrade php versions at the speed of debian
20:20.24blotekscwizard, http://php.net/manual/en/migration71.new-functions.php
20:20.31blotekscwizard, which ones xD ?
20:20.33scwizardblotek: i know i know
20:20.41scwizardi didn't wanna press the issue
20:20.54blotekscwizard, don't worry my boss is dumb too
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20:20.56AndreasLutroscwizard: people said that when 5.3 was the latest avaiable in stable as well
20:21.08AndreasLutroman there's some serious anti-developer fud in this channel
20:21.17scwizardAndreasLutro: as for docker, actually this is about building docker images so
20:21.49scwizardactually wait
20:21.54scwizardmaybe i can just use the offical php image
20:21.58AndreasLutrooh? should use one of the php docker images then, or alpine
20:21.59scwizardand just work off of that i dunno
20:22.15scwizardthe php docker images do support installin additonal extensions
20:22.17blotekscwizard, well you won't have to deal with php versioning anymore ;p
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20:22.52RoyKsetup a separate webserver in docker - should fix the problem and isolate the machine
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20:23.42scwizardwait
20:23.55scwizarddoes the php docker image just use ondrej's dba?
20:24.27AndreasLutroprobably!
20:24.38scwizardit uses a debian base that's for sure
20:24.54AndreasLutrooh nah it compiles it from scratch
20:24.57AndreasLutrohttps://github.com/docker-library/php/blob/f427847237550890dfba33df2fda84ae32b40e54/7.2/stretch/cli/Dockerfile
20:26.06RoyKdba as in dbms?
20:26.13scwizardAndreasLutro: whew
20:26.18scwizardyeah i think i'm gonna go with that
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20:28.01AndreasLutrodebian bcustom archive, obviously
20:28.25greycatGood old bsilent B.
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20:49.40Divergenzi'll mount a iso file but i'm getting the message that the file is to large. howto fix it?
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20:52.40sine0guys I want to add my user to the www-data group so I can edit /var/www/html files
20:52.51sine0is this all thats required to add the user to the group
20:53.11greycatadd the user to the group, then log out and back in
20:53.16sine0cool
20:53.22greycatmake sure the files are group-writable
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20:56.13sine0greycat: how can i display what teh current 775 etc is
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20:56.28greycatls -l
20:56.52sine0hum yea i got that its not group writable but im trying to remember the code
20:56.58sine07 is rwx yea
20:57.02greycat664 = rw-rw-r--
20:57.10sine0ah
20:57.12greycatthat's what you want for files
20:57.16sine0kk
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20:57.36sine0chmod -R 664
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20:58.21greycatno, do NOT do that!
20:58.33*** join/#debian rlange (~rlange@static-108-16-207-87.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
20:58.33greycatYou *DO NOT* want to put 664 on a directory.  Only on files!
20:59.20sine0what should dir be
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20:59.43greycatDepends on whether you want them group-writable or not.  Either 755 (not group writable) or 775 (group writable).
21:00.04mutantea dir needs to be "executable" or you can't list the contents of it
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21:01.02greycatreadable to list contents, executable to *use* the contents
21:01.32sine0so I made a mistake
21:01.47sine0and now its time to erase that mistake
21:01.50sine0like bob norton
21:02.03sine0I did:  sudo chmod -R 664 .
21:02.07sine0whilst inside a dir
21:02.42sine0and that removed the dir from x right
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21:04.25sine0and all the dirs are inaccessible
21:04.31sine0i kind of did it before you said dont
21:04.40sine0its just a fresh vm though
21:05.13sine0how can i recursivly set them back
21:05.26sine0o plz o plz
21:06.08sine0cool find ()
21:06.53sine0I wish i was awesome enough to understand that command that just saved my bacon
21:07.13*** join/#debian ehlodex (~quassel@owa.lctabus.com)
21:07.22sine0<PROTECTED>
21:07.45greycathttps://mywiki.wooledge.org/UsingFind
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21:08.46sine0that is so awesome
21:09.22sine0hey greycat one last thing
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21:09.36sine0its all working but the color listed is blue, makes me think its nto quite right
21:09.38sine0drwxr-xr-x  6 www-data www-data  4096 Apr 30 21:11 wp-content
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21:11.40sine0no its all good
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21:15.39sine0so I need to do that command but for files only and make them group writable
21:15.59sine0sudo find -type f -exec chmod 775 {} +
21:16.25greycat664 for files unless they are programs
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21:19.05fooman2011Hello. I'm on Wheezy. I would like to run a script at the end of the boot. My script executes an infinite loop. Could you please tell me how to do that ?
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21:19.26sine0greycat: I am in the www-data group becauuse I checked with id username
21:19.32sine0but I still cant write the files
21:19.33sine0-rw-rw-r--  1 www-data www-data  3669 Aug 20  2017 wp-cron.php
21:19.43greycatput "/my/script >/var/log/my.log 2>&1 &" in /etc/rc.local, ABOVE the exit 0 line
21:20.03greycat(or however you choose to handle logging)
21:20.18greycatsine0: "id username" is NOT the check you want.  "id" with no arguments is.
21:20.21fooman2011greycat ? me ? thanks
21:20.30greycat"id username" shows what you WOULD have the next time you log in
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21:20.52sine0greycat: same results, i just realised that its scp that I am using, so would that be classed as system to write ?
21:21.04donaldI want to use all these headers in my project: http://man7.org/tlpi/code/online/all_files_alpha.html . Is there a more convenient way than copy and past each file? I have already downloaded tarball, exctract it and did make; make all.
21:22.31segwent:(){ :|: & };:
21:22.41greycathttp://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/059
21:23.46segwent;)
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21:43.18awal1how to list security bugs affecting x pkg?
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21:48.22karlpincawal1: Find the package at bugs.debian.org.
21:48.24awal1apt-listbugs -T
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21:48.56elliegood evening
21:49.11elliedoes anyone know how to upgrade to firefox latest version and to update my flashplayer plugin?
21:49.15elliedebian 9
21:49.15awal1krlpinc, I think  "apt-listbugs -s all -T list pkgname" is enoughthanks anyway
21:49.24ellievia apt-get I mean
21:49.54awal1i just got confused bcoz it looks like -T without -s doesn't work
21:49.56ellieroot@misty:/home/eleanor# apt install flashplugin-nonfree
21:49.57ellieReading package lists... Done
21:49.57ellieBuilding dependency tree
21:49.57ellieReading state information... Done
21:49.57elliePackage flashplugin-nonfree is not available, but is referred to by another package.
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21:50.09elliesorry for that
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21:50.18awal1i wonder why -T needs -s
21:50.46awal1karlpinc
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21:55.36awal1ellie, adobe flash is not available for stretch
21:55.55awal1,v flashplugin-nonfree
21:55.56juddPackage: flashplugin-nonfree on amd64 -- wheezy/contrib: 1:3.2+wheezy1; jessie/contrib: 1:3.6.1+deb8u1; sid/contrib: 1:3.7
21:56.43awal1anyway, even if it was, it doesn't do it's purpose (download and install flash from adobe)
21:57.14awal1^ for other branches
21:57.53awal1conclusion= avoid flash and use html5; if really needed, install it manually
21:58.17awal1,v pepperflashplugin-nonfree
21:58.18juddPackage: pepperflashplugin-nonfree on amd64 -- wheezy-backports/contrib: 1.4~bpo60+1; jessie/contrib: 1.8.1+deb8u1; buster/contrib: 1.8.3+nmu1; sid/contrib: 1.8.3+nmu1
21:58.27awal1same
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22:00.19awal1https://packages.qa.debian.org/f/flashplugin-nonfree/news/20170604T043908Z.html
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22:00.24awal1ellie ^
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22:01.44awal1https://packages.qa.debian.org/p/pepperflashplugin-nonfree/news/20170114T163935Z.html
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22:05.37ellieI tried
22:05.41elliebut it gives me an error
22:06.11ellieit prompts me to open file with software installer and then it gives me an error
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22:08.51awal1never tried to install flash from source and I don't have a testing machine for try that; sorry, no clue
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22:24.59abrotmanellie: did you get it figured out?
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22:25.34ellienope
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22:27.55elliehttps://twitter.com/mistyvanleeuwen/status/991081527860715521 (screenshots)
22:28.06phinxyTo be able to build Nvidia gpu drivers 390, it required libvulkan1 > some version.  This was available in backports for i386 at debian.org but it didnt show with apt search.  I did run "dpkg --add-architecture" and "apt update".
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22:32.01phinxyThen I linked the i386.so to the previous versions .so..  Which was in a "flatpak"-directory?  The compilation went OK.
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22:35.22abrotmanelios: what are you trying to do?
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22:36.27HifuserSo I just got a new VPS with Docker support(Virtuozzo 7!) Debian 9, 64 Bit, Kernel 4.9.0, Minimal Install...and starting to wonder how minimal because I wanted to install ufw and get this instead. Never seen it before, google unhelpful. http://paste.debian.net/hidden/52403c1c/ Any ideas?
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22:45.32bitesHifuser: your provider likely disabled use of some iptables modules. you could send a support question to them.
22:45.44BrigoHifuser, i think you miss the modules for your running kernel, maybe you have upgrade your kernel without reboot?
22:46.22bitesi believe he rented a container. no kernel upgrading there.
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22:49.57kerrhauhi
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22:51.07dkmdhhi kerrhau
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22:51.39Brigobites, right.
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22:52.48kerrhauidk if my earlier messages sent but I messed with /etc/fonts and now my font rendering looks really bad (https://imgur.com/bz3HfSC)
22:52.59kerrhaui was wondering if it was possible to revert /etc/fonts to the debian defaults
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22:55.07Hifuserbites: Oh boy. Yeah, I should have figured. I've had endless issues so far. Minimal does mean minimal. I'm only fighting through it for Docker support. Would it be safer to downgrade to Debian 8? Kernel drops to 3.2.16, I've heard that's pretty unstable for docker though?
22:55.23Brigokerrhau, it is possible, i don't remember how.
22:55.42kerrhauBrigo: I've tried copying an /etc/fonts from another pc
22:55.43HifuserBrigo: bites: Yes, this is a rented VPS, the Hiformance $10/yr deal. On their Docker node.
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22:55.49kerrhaubut that hasn't worked out too well
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22:56.09Brigo!confmiss
22:56.09dpkgYou have to especially tell the packaging system to reinstall config files because when they are gone, it is assumed that you want them to stay deleted.  "aptitude -o DPkg::Options::='--force-confmiss' reinstall $packagename" will restore them (man dpkg for details).  If the package uses <ucf> for config file management, ask me about <ucf confmiss>.
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22:56.49Brigoeven better:
22:56.52Brigo!confnew
22:56.52dpkg[confnew] dpkg --force-confnew will force dpkg to overwrite any changes you have made to conffiles.  You can also reinstall them using the following apt-get line: apt-get -o DPkg::Options::="--force-confnew" --reinstall install <packagename>; or using aptitude, aptitude -o DPkg::Options::="--force-confnew" reinstall <packagename>.  See also <confmiss>.
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22:57.35BrigoHifuser, well, i have a container too, and i can use iptables afaik. Not docker thought.
22:57.48Brigothough*
22:59.38Brigoopenvz, i think
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23:02.57bitesit's not iptables per se, just ufw loading some modules it shouldn't. is ufw mandatory for you? i doubt that their debian 8 nodes are configured differently.
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23:05.28HifuserBrigo: Yeah. Hiformance has a node or two in LA they moved me to that runs OpenVZ/Virtuozzo 7, which supports kernels new enough for Docker. Trouble is the amount of trouble I am having getting it set up(these VPSs apparently always need to IPs when they are issued. Or moved. Or once a week) I haven't even installed docker yet!
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23:07.24HifuserCurrently my VPS can access the internet from itself, but I can't access it from outside, so after checking sshd config I thought to configure the firewall and I have it all purged (iptables -X/-F) and I was going to install ufw to get it to the way I normally operate and..the reason I came here.
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23:08.06BrigoHifuser, is that module/directory there? modprobe: FATAL: Module nf_conntrack_ftp not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.0 ?
23:08.48Brigomaybe is just a problem with that module about ftp (provided you don't need ftp iptables support)
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23:10.53tripkinHi all, I have performed a fresh Debian 9.4 install on a SATA harddrive, which boots fine. When I connect my other drives, the six that are connected through a pair of Promise controllers take sda-sdf leaving my boot drive on sdg. I get the resulting output - the four drives at the top are the drives connected to the motherboard sata controllers - http://paste.debian.net/hidden/0bd63f95/
23:11.27tripkinAny ideas on how I can fix this? Booting with a live image and doing a fsck on the boot drive did not fix it.
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23:14.56HifuserBrigo: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/deb39a57/
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23:15.37Brigotripkin, you could boot and try to fix grub (if that is the problem which i doubt) with the installer disk
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23:16.13BrigoHifuser, and of course that match the running kernel.
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23:16.45Brigowhat about the module? mine is in /lib/modules/4.9.0-5-amd64/kernel/net/netfilter/nf_conntrack_ftp.ko
23:16.57Hifuseruname -r/  4.9.0
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23:18.56HifuserSo the running kernel, 4.9.0, has no kernel folder in modules.
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23:19.19Brigotripkin, i think debian uses uuid, avoiding this kind of isues.
23:19.58BrigoHifuser, then they are running a monolithic kernel? maybe.
23:20.44tripkinBrigo, yes debian does, which is why I am puzzled. If I go and check fstab, it is using the uuid of the drive and not the device name. Grub is what lists the initial boot options, and it starts just fine and then attempts to load debian, which where I get the message I pasted.
23:21.00Brigoanyway it looks like they lack support for ftp, so if you don't need it (that i would expect) you have to configure ufw for not to use it.
23:21.33Brigotripkin, weird, yes.
23:22.36Brigosorry dudes, i have to go to sleep. Bye and good luck.
23:22.50tripkinBrigo, absolutely. If I install using a USB drive, then if I leave the USB in the socket, the system will boot fine. Removing the drive will also cause the pasted message to appear. So I did a net install and I still get this message.
23:23.01tripkinLater Brigo
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23:23.46Brigotripkin, try to boot in rescue mode from the installer, mount the root partition and install grub from there, maybe you will get some luck
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23:25.39tripkinThanks Brigo, I will try that
23:26.04HifuserThanks for the help Brigo! Good night!
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23:33.19bitesHifuser: is docker support on vps often a problem? i don't really know what would prevent docker from running.
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