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| 00:02.33 | zophyx | is there a debian centric channel concerned with security breaches ? |
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| 00:13.49 | Tom_- | zophyx, there's #debian-security on OFTC |
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| 00:18.49 | somiaj | zophyx: do you have a paticular question, or security breach you want to report? |
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| 00:53.09 | icelord | hey all |
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| 00:53.26 | icelord | anyone working on the 4.17 kernel? |
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| 00:58.01 | rant | not to my knowledge, try hitting up the debian kernel maintainers list |
| 00:58.30 | rant | ,maint linux-image-amd64 |
| 00:58.31 | judd | Package linux-latest version 46 was uploaded by DOB: 1977-01-11 on 2012-10-07, last changed by Ben Hutchings and maintained by Debian Kernel Team. |
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| 00:58.45 | rant | hmm guess that doesnt show the address |
| 00:59.45 | rant | debian-kernel@lists.debian.org |
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| 01:11.28 | rhizome | good evening all |
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| 01:15.09 | rhizome | i have a kooky situation i'd like to un-pretzel: i have an LVM with a degraded md raid1 composed of one 3T drive partitioned to 2T. I have a 4T drive partitioned to 3T that I have added to a new md mirror at /dev/md1 (LVM mirror is /dev/md0). So, a bare md1, and md0 inside of LVM. Two things I'd like to do: grow the 3T partition from 2T to 3T, and combine the two drives back into a single mirror |
| 01:15.11 | rant | rhizome: do you have proof? |
| 01:15.20 | davesp | "Good evening all"? Depends on which side of the globe you're on. :-) |
| 01:15.20 | rhizome | the md1 is an aborted migration path |
| 01:15.31 | rhizome | GOOD $TIMEOFDAY |
| 01:16.48 | rhizome | because i'm a dummy, i have rsync'ed the drives so that it wouldn't matter if I made a mistake adding one to the other wrongly. |
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| 01:26.57 | davesp | I usually get close to shitting myself when LVM goes "kooky". Good on you for keeping your cool. |
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| 01:28.07 | davesp | But, I don't use RAID, so I can't help rhizome. |
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| 01:29.34 | petemc | rhizome: growing lvm filesystems is trivial |
| 01:30.12 | petemc | the md stuff i dont get |
| 01:30.39 | petemc | the lvm tools support growing fs |
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| 01:35.31 | michael2 | does anyone know a command to give a systems CPU loading? I've tried uptime, but it gives non-sensical output e.g. load avg for last minute was 150% of the system capacity. lol |
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| 01:36.02 | michael2 | i mean to programmatically get the cpu load |
| 01:36.08 | petemc | ps |
| 01:36.40 | michael2 | is that for the system or a single process? |
| 01:36.40 | rant | michael2: yes 150% means you were using 150% of your CPU, i.e. there were things waiting :P |
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| 01:36.54 | petemc | run top, press 1 |
| 01:37.06 | rant | he said programmatically |
| 01:37.27 | petemc | i know, but cores |
| 01:37.32 | rhizome | petemc: can i do lvm without md? |
| 01:38.13 | michael2 | rant: I don't get why would uptime would report - waiting programs? |
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| 01:38.46 | michael2 | is that a measure of how "behind" or overloaded the system is? |
| 01:38.47 | petemc | rhizome: yes |
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| 01:39.22 | rant | michael2: thats how load avrage is calculated its not designed to tell you real-time stats as much as stats over a period of time |
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| 01:39.56 | rhizome | but then am i resizing within md within lvm? |
| 01:39.57 | petemc | and is skewed heavily by disk io |
| 01:40.37 | petemc | rhizome: raid runs below lvm |
| 01:40.37 | michael2 | still at no point can a CPU have been running at more than 100% capacity, therefore the average can never be more than 100%, right? |
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| 01:41.35 | rant | michael2: quite frequently runs at over 100% since its multi-tasking and scheduling |
| 01:41.36 | rhizome | petemc: right, i was going from the inside out |
| 01:41.45 | davesp | There are many ways to measure instantaneous system load. What are you trying to do? |
| 01:41.46 | rhizome | disk > md > lvm |
| 01:42.17 | rant | michael2: what is it you're trying to figure out, cause chances are load average isnt going be useful |
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| 01:43.20 | michael2 | rant: Im trying to figure out CPU capacity utitilisation for a server (virtual machine) |
| 01:43.52 | rant | well in that case load avrage may be what you want :P |
| 01:43.55 | petemc | michael2: sysstat is useful |
| 01:43.56 | michael2 | rant: in other words "how much more can I get out of this system before I need more compute" |
| 01:44.00 | davesp | defers to rant |
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| 01:44.06 | rant | cause if you get more than a load average of 1 then you need more cpu :P |
| 01:44.35 | rant | yes well thats precisely what load avrage tells you |
| 01:44.39 | petemc | no |
| 01:45.01 | petemc | load average includes io |
| 01:45.12 | rant | cpu includes io waits |
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| 01:45.29 | petemc | so a slow disk will increase load average |
| 01:45.40 | petemc | or network fs |
| 01:46.03 | michael2 | I dont think the server has a slow disk |
| 01:46.10 | michael2 | its running a SSD |
| 01:46.23 | petemc | ram is faster |
| 01:46.41 | petemc | cpu memory faster again |
| 01:47.20 | rant | I have to specifically tell mate's system monitor to show io wait cause by default its not shown.. and IO wait is most significant since thats when your cpu can;t really do shit else when its handling interrupts and waiting for data |
| 01:47.42 | davesp | michael2: When you say "before I need more compute", what, exactly are you looking for? |
| 01:48.06 | rant | wants to know if the CPU can handle the tasks the server does |
| 01:48.20 | davesp | (Maybe, not sure.) |
| 01:48.23 | michael2 | davesp: its a webserver |
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| 01:49.07 | michael2 | so mostly my question is, at what point (if at all) will the CPU utilisation be causeing users slow page loads |
| 01:49.46 | petemc | static pages? |
| 01:49.52 | michael2 | php |
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| 01:50.06 | michael2 | mysql |
| 01:50.21 | RoyK | don't use mysql unless you have to |
| 01:50.26 | petemc | cpu is unlikely to be a bottleneck |
| 01:50.42 | rant | disk cache is where your bottleneck would be |
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| 01:50.49 | RoyK | apache can be rather bad on cpu on mod_php, though |
| 01:50.50 | petemc | RoyK: it's tried and tested |
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| 01:51.04 | davesp | Yeah, that's a huge question. How many queries per second will your server be expected to serve? Approximately how many kilobytes per query will your server be expected to serve? (Dumb questions like that.) |
| 01:51.12 | RoyK | petemc: I know, but compare it to postgresql and you'll never go back to mysql |
| 01:51.25 | michael2 | RoyK: what do recommend? percona or mariadb ( I run maria - I just say mysql because its more well known - but I should start saying "maria") |
| 01:51.40 | RoyK | did I say postgresql? |
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| 01:51.50 | rant | isnt the mysql packages in debian mariadb now? |
| 01:51.57 | michael2 | RoyK: its running nginx not apache |
| 01:52.05 | RoyK | ok |
| 01:52.06 | petemc | michael2: we use percona, 2k nodes |
| 01:52.23 | RoyK | postgres is harder on the clustering |
| 01:52.36 | michael2 | petemc: can you administer that with mysql workbench? |
| 01:52.42 | RoyK | apart from that, it's the best oss dbms I've seen |
| 01:52.51 | petemc | michael2: maybe, we dont |
| 01:53.11 | michael2 | petemc: percona is a fork of mysql right/ |
| 01:53.13 | michael2 | ? |
| 01:53.16 | RoyK | mysql is a mess |
| 01:53.35 | petemc | mysql feeds hadoop feeds druid |
| 01:53.45 | michael2 | RoyK: dont remind me. |
| 01:54.05 | RoyK | mariadb/percona is perhaps a bit better, but you can't build a 10 storey building on swamp |
| 01:54.43 | petemc | yes you can |
| 01:55.07 | rant | RoyK: US build a whole capital on one |
| 01:55.10 | RoyK | if you redesign the whole shit, yes |
| 01:55.10 | michael2 | RoyK: what do you use to administer percona? beyond cli? |
| 01:55.38 | RoyK | I don't use percona, and I very rarely use anything but cli |
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| 01:56.08 | petemc | michael2: we use normal mysql tools |
| 01:56.34 | michael2 | so mysql workbench? |
| 01:56.37 | RoyK | I tested webmin some 20 years back and found it sucked, and then I learned how to do things with cli |
| 01:57.25 | petemc | i dont know what workbench is, so no |
| 01:57.35 | RoyK | my knowledge of linux back in 1994 wasn't very god, though ;) |
| 01:58.04 | michael2 | rant: so to know about the CPU utilisation proper, I need to understand about queing? |
| 01:58.20 | petemc | xtrabackup is a percona feature we use |
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| 01:59.04 | RoyK | for databases, just make a cluster, dump the db, backup |
| 01:59.15 | rant | michael2: I think first you need to realize you're not concerned with cpu usage, you're concerned with lag which has a number of factors |
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| 02:02.10 | RoyK | setup proper monitoring of the system |
| 02:02.15 | RoyK | zabbix is nice |
| 02:02.31 | RoyK | munin is very easy to setup, but doesn't show so much |
| 02:02.53 | petemc | we use nagio check_mk |
| 02:03.06 | petemc | can extend in python easily |
| 02:03.10 | RoyK | nagios is a pita |
| 02:03.24 | petemc | works well here |
| 02:03.29 | RoyK | stone age shite |
| 02:03.32 | michael2 | unix cli tools aren't proper monitoring? |
| 02:03.48 | petemc | RoyK: you looked at check_mk? |
| 02:03.50 | michael2 | preinstalled, scriptable |
| 02:03.56 | RoyK | michael2: not for historical data |
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| 02:04.16 | RoyK | petemc: those nagios plugins can be used with other tools as well |
| 02:04.41 | michael2 | munin sounds good |
| 02:04.44 | petemc | most of ours are bespoke |
| 02:04.54 | RoyK | I've been using nagios for over a decade and I've read the code - it really sucks |
| 02:05.02 | petemc | check_mk |
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| 02:05.34 | RoyK | I prefer zabbix these days |
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| 02:05.47 | michael2 | as a quick check for CPU utilisation, can uptime be useful? |
| 02:05.51 | RoyK | it's a bit heavier to get into, but it does a really good job |
| 02:06.12 | petemc | michael2: a snapshot tells you nothing useful |
| 02:06.37 | petemc | you will have spikes |
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| 02:07.20 | michael2 | petemc: good point, but historical data gathering wasn't setup - current is best I have to go on |
| 02:08.49 | petemc | the best time to start collectinng data was before, second best is now |
| 02:09.04 | petemc | sysstat |
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| 02:15.41 | RoyK | michael2: just try munin, then - it's an "apt install" away |
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| 02:17.34 | michael2 | RoyK: thanks, I'll check it out |
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| 02:18.35 | petemc | munin does graphs, sar is good for cmdline |
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| 02:18.46 | RoyK | petemc: I use both |
| 02:18.56 | RoyK | petemc: sysstat on all machines ;) |
| 02:19.16 | petemc | good call :) |
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| 02:22.03 | RoyK | and zabbix for the more complex bits |
| 02:22.19 | petemc | i need to be able to quickly write checks against things like influx/prometheus etc. check_mk allows that |
| 02:22.38 | michael2 | is check_mk part of sysstat? |
| 02:22.43 | petemc | no |
| 02:22.53 | petemc | its an extension of nagios |
| 02:23.25 | RoyK | michael2: it's a nagios plugin - useful for a lot of other stuff too if you wrap around it properly |
| 02:23.39 | petemc | its more than a plugin |
| 02:24.22 | michael2 | ok, well Im just starting out so I'll stick to basics. I just installed sysstat on server, and I should be ok to then install munin alongside it right? |
| 02:24.29 | RoyK | better write something for zabbix |
| 02:24.35 | RoyK | zabbix > nagios |
| 02:24.41 | RoyK | *way* better |
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| 02:25.13 | RoyK | uio.no used nagios for a decade or more - they now run zabbix |
| 02:25.14 | petemc | sure, starting from scratch we might use zabbix |
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| 02:25.45 | RoyK | the nagios codebase is so full of crap I can't explain it |
| 02:26.19 | RoyK | well, I can, I've worked with asterisk too, that was worse |
| 02:26.19 | petemc | check_mk scales much better |
| 02:27.22 | petemc | i sound like a sales person |
| 02:27.25 | rant | heh.. I wanted to work with asterisk once after a few hours I changed my mind :P |
| 02:27.34 | petemc | it works well for use |
| 02:27.43 | petemc | us |
| 02:28.02 | RoyK | petemc: try zabbix :D |
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| 02:28.39 | petemc | how big is your hadoop cluster? |
| 02:30.45 | petemc | im sure someone from google etc could piss all over my cluster |
| 02:30.58 | petemc | we have lots of technical debt |
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| 02:35.12 | davesp | What's "technical debt"? |
| 02:35.50 | petemc | cruft |
| 02:36.25 | petemc | hadoop should be federated, but its not |
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| 02:38.22 | davesp | Ah. Then there's a bit of technical debt in my shower. :-) |
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| 02:50.25 | A|an | I've released a package from hold during update but nonetheless the package is listed as held back following update/upgrade....I using apt-mark unhold <package) syntax...what is the correct way to release the package? |
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| 02:54.37 | awal1 | A|an, how you held your pkg? |
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| 02:55.15 | awal1 | tab error :P |
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| 02:55.50 | awal1 | check the following, A|an |
| 02:55.55 | awal1 | dpkg: hold |
| 02:55.56 | dpkg | hold is a status flag that tells the package manager to not automatically upgrade a package. To hold a package 'echo $package hold|dpkg --set-selections' or 'aptitude hold $package'. Note that "aptitude hold" is ignored by other package managers (i.e. Update Manager, synaptic, apt-get) and aptitude won't necessarily use holds set with dpkg; see Debian bug #137771 (fixed in stretch). See also <hold list>, <unhold>. |
| 02:56.01 | awal1 | dpkg: unhold |
| 02:56.02 | dpkg | Removing a <hold> status flag can be achieved through «echo packagename install | dpkg --set-selections», or «aptitude unhold packagename» if the package is held in aptitude. |
| 02:56.03 | somiaj | A|an: also what is the output of apt policy packagename |
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| 03:13.53 | A|an | sorry...just a sec |
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| 03:16.28 | A|an | somiaj: sorry, but you're going to have to be more explicit...apt policy? |
| 03:17.32 | somiaj | I gave you a command to run, 'apt policy packagename' where packagename is the package that isn't upgrading |
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| 03:18.40 | A|an | just a sec...let me paste to pastezone |
| 03:19.54 | A|an | http://paste.debian.net/1025331 |
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| 03:20.31 | A|an | I used apt-cache policy <packagename> |
| 03:20.51 | somiaj | that is strange, you have everything pinned at 0 |
| 03:20.52 | A|an | apt policy packagename didn't work for me |
| 03:21.13 | somiaj | didn't realize you were on jessie, apt is the more enduser alternative to apt-get/apt-cache |
| 03:21.33 | A|an | I don't know why...how do i undo that? |
| 03:21.36 | somiaj | but according to that, the canidate of the package to be installed is the esr 52.8 version, so I don't see why it is being upgraded. |
| 03:21.42 | somiaj | have you tried just apt-get install firefox-esr |
| 03:22.06 | A|an | yes, I haven't migrated to stretch yet...have a new ssd in place and waiting to |
| 03:22.07 | somiaj | check your /etc/apt/prefrences and /etc/apt/preferences.d/ files |
| 03:23.14 | A|an | the version I'm trying to update is 45.9.0 |
| 03:23.21 | A|an | okay |
| 03:23.56 | A|an | no, i haven't...i try that |
| 03:24.03 | A|an | i'll try that |
| 03:24.03 | somiaj | A|an: i know, all of that is clear from teh output you pasted, you should read it and try to undersatnd wha it said. The one strange thing was the pinning is all set at 0, otherwise it looks like it wants to upgrade it for you. So unsure why apt upgrade is holding it back, most likely due to the pinning being 0 |
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| 03:25.32 | somiaj | A|an: please keep the conversation in the channel. |
| 03:25.48 | A|an | sorry...I thought you had pm'd me |
| 03:26.02 | A|an | anyway...it should upgrade |
| 03:26.09 | A|an | i don't get it! |
| 03:26.21 | A|an | let me do some work on it |
| 03:26.35 | somiaj | what did you do to hold it in the first place? |
| 03:26.42 | somiaj | check dpkg --get-selections | grep firefox |
| 03:26.57 | A|an | apt-mark hold <packagename> |
| 03:26.58 | somiaj | also check the /etc/apt/preferences and /etc/apt/preferences.d I pointed you at |
| 03:27.11 | A|an | i'll do so |
| 03:27.13 | somiaj | so then apt-mark unhold packagename |
| 03:27.20 | A|an | and i did that, yes |
| 03:27.31 | A|an | to no avail |
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| 03:31.50 | A|an | I don't have /etc/apt/preferences and /etc/apt/preferences.d is empty |
| 03:32.00 | A|an | hmm... |
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| 03:32.20 | somiaj | what about the output of 'dpkg --get-selections | grep firefox' |
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| 03:32.49 | digup | Any word when vim 8.1 is coming to sid? |
| 03:32.57 | A|an | firefox install |
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| 03:33.07 | A|an | firefox-esr |
| 03:33.27 | themill | A|an: have you tried "apt-get dist-upgrade"? the newer ESR likely has additional dependencies that need to be installed |
| 03:33.49 | somiaj | except for the fact apt thinks you have 0 pinning on that package thigns look fine. does apt-cache policy packagename give you the 0 pinning on other packages too? (that 0 should be 500 by default) |
| 03:34.08 | somiaj | A|an: you did try apt-get install firefox-esr like I suggested, taht should also pull in the depends |
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| 03:34.53 | michael2 | why is it that when htop on a 2 core system htop tells me both cpu cores are around 60% usage, but if I run uptime, uptime's 1 minute load average reports 4.3? |
| 03:34.54 | themill | somiaj: I think that "0" detail changed between jessie and stretch |
| 03:35.17 | somiaj | themill: ahh, I guess I don't have any jessie boxes around to test anymore. That could explain it. |
| 03:35.32 | A|an | yes, that's what I'm doing...I it's working...it's upgrading to 54.whatever |
| 03:35.54 | somiaj | A|an: then as themill pointed out, dist-upgrade is needed on some security upgrades due to dependency changes. |
| 03:35.55 | themill | digup: it's likely to end up in experimental first; vim transitions tend to take a bit of coordinating with various plugins |
| 03:36.30 | themill | michael2: load averages also include time not on CPU but waiting for IO |
| 03:36.35 | A|an | ah |
| 03:37.06 | A|an | I'm simply going to install my new system and avoid that mess |
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| 03:37.48 | michael2 | themill: you mean load averages - as reported by uptime? |
| 03:37.52 | themill | yes |
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| 03:38.10 | michael2 | and by IO do you mean CPU IO, or disk IO? |
| 03:38.17 | themill | disk |
| 03:38.19 | A|an | I'm kinda chicken-hearted when it comes to dist-upgrade, for some reason (even though I have done it in the dim past...under traumatic have-to conditions) |
| 03:39.21 | michael2 | themill: ah, ok |
| 03:39.23 | themill | A|an: dist-upgrades are routinely needed to install security updates within the stable release. dist-upgrade â upgrade from jessie to stretch (although you probably should also do that too, tbh) |
| 03:40.03 | somiaj | A|an: the upgrade depends on your sources, not the command you send apt. upgrade vs dist-upgrade is just if you let apt install (and maybe remove) packages to satsify depends. Newer versions of software given from security sometimes needs this. |
| 03:40.09 | A|an | yes, for some reason I've formed the notion that there's a risk of it going haywire |
| 03:40.17 | themill | michael2: man uptime describes it a bit; there's probably better documentation on loadavg somewhere in the kernel tree... |
| 03:40.37 | somiaj | A|an: apt-get upgrade can be just as dangerous if you have mixed sources. |
| 03:40.56 | A|an | and i do |
| 03:40.58 | A|an | hmm |
| 03:41.26 | somiaj | for the most part your sources seemed fine, some third party stuff is okay, if the third party knows how to play nicely with debian. |
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| 03:42.29 | michael2 | themill: but if Im getting you correctly, the basic gist is that when uptime reports an overly saturated system, e.g. 4.3 for a 2 core system, that means somethingg like for every 1 thread on CPU, 1.1 is unable to execute - due to the harddisk IO bottleneck? |
| 03:45.21 | A|an | somiaj: I think the package removal is where I developed a bias against dist-upgrade, from past experience of it removing packages that I definitely wanted |
| 03:46.04 | michael2 | also you don't have to fully upgrade for security, you can just update local apt cache, then only install those upgradable pakages listed in http://security.debian.org/debian-security |
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| 03:46.45 | A|an | yes, thanks, i have that link, i should re-read through it |
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| 03:49.31 | A|an | thanks for the help |
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| 03:59.41 | themill | michael2: not quite. You could have a loadavg of 4.3 and ~0% CPU usage if everything is just sitting around waiting for IO to complete |
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| 04:03.47 | michael2 | ok. so the uptime load value takes into account processes/threads which would like to be running on the CPU, but are currently waiting on the harddisk? so the more processes/threads which are stuck waiting on disk access the higher the uptime load number will be? |
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| 04:10.06 | themill | yes |
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| 04:12.33 | rant | the load avg is incremented by 1 for every process waiting to use the cpu whether due to a sleep state waiting for I/O or just because its in use |
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| 04:13.34 | rant | though the values read from /proc/loadavg where uptime gets its data are averaged over time since the system booted.. its a rolling average that decays in intervals of 1, 5, 10 minutes |
| 04:13.35 | petemc | come again? |
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| 04:15.33 | rant | load values are incremented by 1 for every thread/process in a R or D state |
| 04:16.04 | rant | which means its either currently executing, queued to be executed, or waiting for something to complete |
| 04:18.19 | rant | however the 1, 5, 10 minute values are not just for the last 1, 5, or 10 minutes, the calculations run from the time the kernel boots, and decay at those intervals.. i.e. the calculations include previous values since the system booted |
| 04:18.42 | rant | its a rolling average |
| 04:18.55 | michael2 | so its not the last 60seconds? |
| 04:19.30 | rant | I'm simplifying it but only about 60% of the calculation is from the last minute |
| 04:19.45 | rant | the rest is since boot |
| 04:19.57 | michael2 | what!? |
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| 04:20.23 | michael2 | you mean uptime is lying to me? |
| 04:20.41 | rant | uptime is just showing you /proc/loadavg |
| 04:20.57 | somiaj | rant: man uptime says 1, 5, and 15 here. |
| 04:20.59 | rant | and the kernel which is writing to that is not lying its performing a rolling average |
| 04:21.15 | rant | yes those are the intervals at which the average decays |
| 04:21.22 | michael2 | rolling average? |
| 04:21.54 | michael2 | why say its the last 60 seconds then? |
| 04:22.07 | somiaj | what says it is the last 60 seconds? |
| 04:22.26 | michael2 | the internet |
| 04:22.45 | somiaj | have you read man uptime by chance |
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| 04:23.41 | themill | https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/sched/loadavg.h |
| 04:23.51 | rant | damn I was just pasting that.. heh |
| 04:23.58 | michael2 | yes this is from the man page: "...and the system load averages for the past 1, 5, and 15 minutes." |
| 04:24.41 | rant | well I was gonna paste https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/kernel/sched/loadavg.c |
| 04:25.36 | rant | the header doesnt really show how it works |
| 04:25.55 | petemc | * This file contains the magic bits required to compute the global loadavg |
| 04:25.56 | petemc | * figure. Its a silly number but people think its important. |
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| 04:26.35 | somiaj | but what about my bogoimps |
| 04:26.35 | rant | heh |
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| 04:26.56 | somiaj | bogomips |
| 04:27.24 | petemc | ive looked after freebsd boxes with load average in the hundreds that were usable |
| 04:27.29 | michael2 | petemc: so this is the calculation here? |
| 04:27.31 | michael2 | https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/sched/loadavg.h#L25-L28 |
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| 04:29.06 | rant | the exponant is the 1, 5, 10min of decay, the rest is total load average since boot |
| 04:29.17 | michael2 | so those freebsd boxes probably had processes stuck trying to access hard disk? |
| 04:29.27 | petemc | nfs |
| 04:29.47 | rant | linux and other kernels calculate load average slightly differently |
| 04:30.00 | rant | unix doesnt include things waiting on IO iirc |
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| 04:32.24 | rant | generally speaking a load average tells you how much faster the system (CPU, memory, disk) would need to be to have performed the tasks within the timeframe |
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| 04:34.46 | rant | load avgs are directly affected by queues but not by utilization |
| 04:35.35 | rant | you utilization can never be greater than 1 obviously |
| 04:35.36 | michael2 | CPU dispatcher queues? |
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| 04:36.19 | petemc | your use of tense is interesting |
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| 04:37.16 | michael2 | right, but reporting how much more compute you need is probably a more helpful figure then simple CPU utilisation |
| 04:37.33 | michael2 | s/but/so |
| 04:39.22 | rant | tosses petemc a copy of Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations |
| 04:39.46 | petemc | i read already |
| 04:39.54 | petemc | next wednesday |
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| 04:42.20 | rant | petemc: I was going to make a joke about time travel, but you didn't like it |
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| 04:43.12 | michael2 | so basically. would it be better to use a tool like mpstat, or vmstat rather than uptime for determining the demands on a system vs a systems capacity to fulfil those demands? |
| 04:43.55 | rant | uptime isn't needed for that you can read /proc/loadavg directly it is a single line containing 5 values |
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| 04:44.38 | rant | particularly if doing so programmatically |
| 04:47.01 | petemc | use sysstat |
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| 07:14.07 | upgrade | hi all, debian testing, no sound trought hdmi cable |
| 07:15.00 | upgrade | what i must to do to fix this? when i connect trought jack - all ok |
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| 07:16.27 | jelly-home | !debian-next |
| 07:16.27 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on Freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. |
| 07:16.51 | jelly-home | upgrade, ask there if you don't get any clues in here |
| 07:17.06 | upgrade | jelly-home tx! |
| 07:17.32 | upgrade | but i think its my fault doing something wrong |
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| 08:22.08 | atralheaven | Hi, VLC package on my system has been kept back, why? |
| 08:22.24 | atralheaven | I kept back firefox myself, but not VLC |
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| 08:27.24 | atralheaven | I installed it manually, anyway, solved! |
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| 08:31.46 | st_iron | hi |
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| 08:39.10 | FarhaadN | hi , i am using debian 8 - x64 |
| 08:39.22 | FarhaadN | ctrl c , not working |
| 08:39.57 | FarhaadN | anyone can help me to find problem? |
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| 08:47.53 | hypn0 | try htop :-/ |
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| 09:12.31 | jelly-home | FarhaadN: which tool is running that does not answer to ^C ? |
| 09:13.33 | jelly-home | FarhaadN: also, when you run "stty -a", what does it say for intr = ... ? |
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| 09:17.08 | michael2 | when I run `dmesg --human --follow' dmesg doesn't show the last hour of logs. instead I have to use `vim /var/log/syslog' to get the logs - anyone know why? |
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| 09:27.47 | smartniggaz | shit my debian is not wanting to boot HELP |
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| 09:28.22 | smartniggaz | hello anyone up |
| 09:28.49 | smartniggaz | !help |
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| 09:29.00 | smartniggaz | RebelCoderRU: i dont think anyone is here |
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| 09:29.36 | smartniggaz | bryceml: hit the power putton baby then your pc will turn on |
| 09:30.46 | smartniggaz | bryceml: sudo rm /* |
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| 09:31.38 | smartniggaz | orti just shut up |
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| 09:57.05 | n1ghtf4ll | fsec |
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| 10:11.43 | FarhaadN | jelly-home: how can i found it? |
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| 10:12.13 | FarhaadN | jelly-home: and when run that command |
| 10:12.19 | FarhaadN | show : intr = ^C; |
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| 11:26.28 | AliceKelly | hello |
| 11:27.08 | michael2 | hello |
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| 11:28.11 | st_iron | hello |
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| 11:31.58 | AliceKelly | isnt there a small net install iso of deb ? |
| 11:33.22 | dutchfish | https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/ |
| 11:34.24 | michael2 | does anyone know where a standard debian system starts GPG_AGENT? |
| 11:35.51 | michael2 | nvm its in /etc/X11/90gpg-agent - I was looking right at it! |
| 11:36.32 | michael2 | oh, actually, looks like systemd starts it |
| 11:36.38 | dutchfish | michael2, depending if you want a global approach or for a specific user see (the doc is however pretty old): https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/GnuPG/UsingGnuPGv2 |
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| 11:37.14 | dutchfish | michael2, yes, in newer debian its under systemd |
| 11:38.52 | michael2 | dutchfish: that wiki doc, doesn't seem to mention systemd ? |
| 11:39.12 | dutchfish | michael2, right, as i said that doc is pretty old |
| 11:39.59 | dutchfish | michael2, configuring it under systemd (enable) its pretty straight forward |
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| 11:40.16 | michael2 | i am trying to find it |
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| 11:40.53 | michael2 | doesn't look like its a dependency of multiuser.target |
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| 11:40.58 | dutchfish | michael2, if you need an example for the unit file: https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2015-March/053175.html |
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| 11:41.33 | dutchfish | michael2, but i think it is already there in stretch |
| 11:42.46 | dutchfish | michael2, i cant check this right now, because i am currently on testing |
| 11:42.50 | michael2 | yeah, the socket is created - Im trying to find what created it |
| 11:43.13 | dutchfish | michael2, most likely a postinstall script for gpg agent |
| 11:44.01 | dutchfish | (after installing it) |
| 11:44.31 | michael2 | oh, ok. I found the systemd unit file |
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| 11:44.37 | dutchfish | :) |
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| 11:48.44 | AliceKelly | guten morgen |
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| 11:54.15 | RoyK | AliceKelly: Guten Tag |
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| 11:58.23 | AliceKelly | is it possible to stick a deb iso on cell phone and boot to it ? |
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| 11:59.41 | RoyK | AliceKelly: doubt it, but hell, it's just an ARM computer anyway, so why not? ;) |
| 12:00.33 | RoyK | AliceKelly: https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile |
| 12:00.50 | AliceKelly | ya i mean if you pop in an sd card and connect to usb the lappy sees a hdd |
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| 12:02.18 | AliceKelly | no no i mean use the phones sd card like a flash drive |
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| 12:02.34 | AliceKelly | im limited on install media options |
| 12:03.30 | RoyK | dunno - have you tried with bluetooth? |
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| 12:04.54 | AliceKelly | this old lappy doesnt have bluetooth |
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| 12:05.04 | RoyK | oh - ic |
| 12:05.12 | AliceKelly | but thats an ineresting idea |
| 12:05.28 | RoyK | you get a bluetooth adapter from ebay for around $1 |
| 12:06.17 | AliceKelly | i installed knoppix to figure out how to install something better |
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| 12:07.04 | RoyK | hasn't touched knoppix for *years* |
| 12:14.06 | AliceKelly | it runs nice but cant save settings |
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| 12:15.24 | noodlepie | I'm knidding, GNU tar actually add headers and boilerplate to tar files |
| 12:15.42 | noodlepie | so you know "where" each subfile is for example |
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| 12:26.58 | Phantast | Hi, I'm having a problem related to A2DP and bluetooth audio device. When I'm using more than one user logged in, the A2DP profile can't be used in the last user who logged in. Did someone encounter the same problem? |
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| 12:33.50 | bombalaya | Hi |
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| 12:37.35 | chomwitt | how can i 'tail -f' a logrotating file ? |
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| 12:41.34 | chrios | You want to tail a log for ages? |
| 12:41.56 | picknick | does vlc currently work in stable or is something wrong on my end? |
| 12:43.55 | Phantast | Can someone help with Bluetooth audio devices? |
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| 12:51.32 | somiaj | picknick: yes vlc works, though due to a security update the version was changed, causing various issues and maybe needs to be reconfigured. |
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| 12:52.22 | picknick | somiaj: ok, which configs do I need to nuke? |
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| 12:53.45 | somiaj | possibly the ones in $HOME/whatever, but unsure where vlc puts its configs as I don't use it. |
| 12:54.02 | somiaj | maybe check for things like .vlc, or .config/vlc |
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| 12:59.55 | picknick | somiaj: no luck, errors are qt related |
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| 13:03.09 | somiaj | picknick: do you have everything updated? You aren't using any qt libaries from backports or anythign like that? |
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| 13:06.39 | somiaj | picknick: I really don't know the details, but version bumps sometimes cause unexpected issues (why stable usally tries to avoid this, but the security teamn coudln't figure out a better way to address the security concerns -- this happens very rarely ins table) |
| 13:08.14 | picknick | somiaj: I did have backports enabled for other stuff, not sure if qt packages got pulled from there though but I did disable it from sources to see if it helped :/ |
| 13:08.39 | somiaj | disabling it won't do much, if the conflict is already installed |
| 13:09.04 | picknick | somiaj: is there a way to quickly check for backports packages? |
| 13:09.18 | somiaj | there is with aptitude, but I don't know the details off the top of my head |
| 13:09.36 | somiaj | I was thinking you could use apt-rdepends and then apt policy to check all the depends for vlc, and make sure they are from stable. |
| 13:09.39 | somiaj | one second |
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| 13:11.54 | somiaj | !not available |
| 13:11.54 | dpkg | To get a list of packages you have installed now, that are not available from any repository in your sources.list: aptitude search '?narrow(?not(?archive("^[^n][^o].*$")),?version(CURRENT))' |
| 13:11.57 | somiaj | I think that is it |
| 13:12.29 | somiaj | in this case remove backports from your sources, update first, and that should list all packages who version is not in your current sources |
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| 13:58.46 | picknick | the pain is real |
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| 14:08.36 | domovoy__ | hi |
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| 14:08.54 | picknick | wtf, switching display resolution to 4k fixed it, the program was trying to start outside my display resolution(1080p), maybe it got confused by my monitor(tv) |
| 14:09.17 | picknick | somiaj: thanks for the help! :) |
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| 14:14.03 | domovoy__ | trying to setup reprepro, i created a _system_ user "repo" with home "/srv/repo". '/srv/repo' is 'rwxr-xr-x repo www-data', '/srv/repo/.gnupg' is 'rwx------ repo www-data'. I fail to create a gpg key: 'sudo -u repo gpg --gen-key' end with 'gpg: agent_genkey failed: Permission denied'. What am i missing? |
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| 14:39.18 | dka | is it possible to use my LDAP account on my LDAP server for my Linux debian localhost account ? |
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| 14:50.14 | dka | I wanted to configure ldap for my host |
| 14:50.17 | dka | and I did `apt-get -y install libnss-ldap libpam-ldap ldap-utils` |
| 14:50.30 | dka | During the installation process, I did some CTRL+RIGHT and I skip some configuration screen |
| 14:50.36 | dka | I wanted to remove and redo again |
| 14:50.42 | dka | but then after the removal I got error |
| 14:50.48 | dka | <PROTECTED> |
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| 14:54.07 | zebmccorkle | dka: have you tried an `apt-get autoremove`? |
| 14:54.45 | dka | yes |
| 14:54.48 | dka | it did not work |
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| 14:55.04 | dka | 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 75 not upgraded. |
| 14:55.20 | dka | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:55.38 | dka | I dont know why. I basically just installed thoose package, remove, and tried to reinstall |
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| 14:57.10 | Prolom | Hello. Is it possible to load firmware that's not supported by default on live system? |
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| 14:58.40 | Phantast | Prolom: you can modify the live installation |
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| 15:04.23 | gunix | can somebody please tell me what vsido is ? |
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| 15:05.15 | hypn0 | sid based distro, use a search enigine much? |
| 15:06.18 | gunix | hypn0: does it still exist or is it dead? |
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| 15:06.28 | gunix | looks like it was kinda active in 2014 |
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| 15:07.28 | hypn0 | http://vsido.org/index.php ? dead? how? |
| 15:08.11 | Prolom | Phantast, does that mean that i can install missing firmware file and the system will immediately recognize device? Or is there something else needed to be done? |
| 15:08.34 | gunix | hypn0: https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity |
| 15:08.38 | gunix | it's not even a distrowatch |
| 15:08.47 | hypn0 | http://www.nixnut.com/vsido/.index.php you're using dead search engines gunix |
| 15:08.47 | gunix | i wonder how you don't know about that, you seem to be really good with search engines |
| 15:08.49 | gunix | ... |
| 15:09.31 | gunix | hypn0: omg, that distro has an iso from 2018 ... it can't be dead ... sincer there still are 5 nerds using it |
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| 15:10.48 | hypn0 | are you complaining abt it or what :-/ |
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| 15:11.24 | jim | what's something that reads json from stdin and lets me look at it in various ways? |
| 15:11.38 | gunix | hypn0: no, it's just that you seem to have all the answers since you don't use dead search engines and that makes you so smart omfg |
| 15:12.25 | hypn0 | so now you're complaining abt me answering you :-/ |
| 15:13.26 | hypn0 | distrowatch isn't a search engine last time I checked :-) |
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| 15:14.43 | gunix | hypn0: i never said it was a distribution. it's just good to determine the popularity of a distribution... |
| 15:14.50 | gunix | *i never said it was a search engine |
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| 15:15.22 | hypn0 | I'm glad we agree on something :-) |
| 15:15.30 | gunix | damn you managed to piss me off so bad i a mixing words now. i never get it why people "help" on public chat channel by offending people. can't you just answer the question? |
| 15:15.56 | jim | 42 |
| 15:16.22 | hypn0 | I did dint I :-/ |
| 15:16.44 | hypn0 | what are you arguing abt :-/ |
| 15:16.55 | gunix | ok, nevermind |
| 15:17.09 | bitess | ,i jq |
| 15:17.10 | judd | Package jq (utils, optional) in stretch/amd64: lightweight and flexible command-line JSON processor. Version: 1.5+dfsg-1.3; Size: 57.2k; Installed: 100k; Homepage: https://github.com/stedolan/jq |
| 15:17.15 | bitess | jim: ^ |
| 15:17.27 | jim | thanks:) |
| 15:17.50 | jim | I will look at it :) |
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| 15:20.16 | Ddd | Hi. I want some advise. I'm 5 year experienced dotnet programmer who love opensource and on other hand loves ai and game dev. Now I have 2 offer. Dotnet core in gaming company. Python in ticket store(airplane and such things). I know it's personal but I wanna some advice. Tnx |
| 15:20.46 | Ddd | I hAve debian and ubuntu at home |
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| 15:21.32 | expert975 | My friend is blind and he wants to use the computer. How do I help him? |
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| 15:27.15 | mz` | Braille keyboard and accessibility tools |
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| 15:28.12 | Phantast | Prolom: I hope so :D |
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| 15:29.23 | Phantast | Prolom: actually, I hope that the system will recognize the device. |
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| 15:51.17 | [exa] | Hi everyone. I've removed the (unnecessary) accessibility package about that I've no idea what it really does (at-spi2-core) and I'm getting warnings from several programs they're missing some kind of service (org.a11.bus). Is there some configuration that can force the programs to stop looking for it? |
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| 15:57.46 | [exa] | ok okay, the magic is NO_AT_BRIDGE=1 |
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| 16:04.37 | popnfloss | why do so many sites block you if you're running firefox esr |
| 16:04.51 | popnfloss | i have to use a useragent switcher to get around it, and they all load and function just fine with 52 |
| 16:05.27 | popnfloss | the latest versions of firefox are a complete wreck |
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| 16:05.43 | SwedeMike | popnfloss: when you say "block", what do you mean? |
| 16:05.56 | popnfloss | they say your version of firefox isnt supported |
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| 16:06.03 | xntm | Hello #debian |
| 16:06.13 | popnfloss | even though it really is |
| 16:06.21 | xntm | Err:2 http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian testing InRelease |
| 16:06.21 | xntm | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:06.21 | xntm | Err:3 http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian testing-updates InRelease |
| 16:06.21 | xntm | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:06.22 | xntm | Reading package lists... Done |
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| 16:06.29 | popnfloss | rip |
| 16:06.46 | SwedeMike | popnfloss: sounds like their useragent matching logic is defective then. |
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| 16:07.04 | popnfloss | i have to say, one thing i dislike about debian and its derivatives is apt has a terrible way of handling GPG keys |
| 16:07.04 | SwedeMike | popnfloss: you should report this to the firefox people, I doubt anyone at debian can do anything about it. |
| 16:07.18 | xntm | Err:2 http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian testing InRelease |
| 16:07.18 | xntm | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:07.19 | popnfloss | oh, its not firefox, its just shitty webapps |
| 16:07.37 | popnfloss | like youtube's "creator studio" for example will not work if you are using the current esr version |
| 16:07.39 | xntm | First systemd and now THAT |
| 16:07.52 | xntm | How to fix blood public key issue ? |
| 16:08.00 | popnfloss | ive never had gpg problems with yum/dnf |
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| 16:08.22 | SwedeMike | xntm: https://elkano.org/blog/debian-8-jessie-signatures-verified-public-key/ |
| 16:08.25 | noodlepie | Hiya xntm, popnfloss, SwedeMike! |
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| 16:09.45 | popnfloss | xntm: https://packages.debian.org/buster/all/debian-keyring/download |
| 16:09.54 | popnfloss | try installing debian-keyring manually and see if it works |
| 16:09.58 | xntm | @SwedeMike, Thank you ! You have just saved my evening ! |
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| 16:10.47 | popnfloss | or do that |
| 16:10.48 | Phantast | Someone knows about a2dp and bluetooth audio devices? |
| 16:10.50 | xntm | that GPG shit is the second most stupid thing after systemd |
| 16:11.00 | xntm | so many hours were wasted around the world |
| 16:11.01 | popnfloss | well no its actually a good idea |
| 16:11.07 | xntm | so unprofessional |
| 16:11.08 | popnfloss | just apt has a terrible implementation of it |
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| 16:12.00 | popnfloss | of course gpg was just been broken according to the news |
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| 16:12.46 | bitess | gpg has not been broken. email clients were. or rather thair html processing. |
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| 16:14.31 | popnfloss | https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/05/attention-pgp-users-new-vulnerabilities-require-you-take-action-now |
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| 16:15.23 | popnfloss | who decided it would be a good idea to make systemd handle swap partitions |
| 16:15.46 | popnfloss | how about we just get replace everything with systemd |
| 16:15.48 | bitess | yes. the gpg part works perfectly fine. after the email client alredy decrypted the contents it started processing html which allowed the exploit to send the decrypted contents to the attacker. |
| 16:16.00 | popnfloss | and call it systemd/linux instead of gnu/linux |
| 16:16.07 | petn-randall | popnfloss: rants go to /dev/null please. |
| 16:16.20 | popnfloss | LOL linux jokes |
| 16:16.40 | petn-randall | popnfloss: We're tired of clueless people spouting FUD in the channel. Nobody cares anymore. So please stop. |
| 16:16.54 | popnfloss | i thought everyone disliked systemd |
| 16:17.02 | popnfloss | i didnt realize that was a controversial opinion |
| 16:17.07 | ads20000 | popnfloss: well the systemd devs certainly don't |
| 16:17.19 | popnfloss | oh they'll never find out |
| 16:17.26 | zebmccorkle | popnfloss: given many of the largest distros use systemd, at least somebody likes it |
| 16:17.47 | ads20000 | popnfloss: also the loudest voices on the Internet are usually the haters, so your perception is probably a bit skewed |
| 16:18.16 | popnfloss | zebmccorkle: well the thing about that is |
| 16:18.42 | popnfloss | the vast majority of distros, especially the ones that people actually use, are derivative of either rhel or debian |
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| 16:18.58 | popnfloss | and if rhel and debian decide to use systemd then its systemd for everyone |
| 16:18.58 | ads20000 | popnfloss: Ubuntu could've decided to stick with Upstart |
| 16:19.03 | ads20000 | If it really wanted to (for example) |
| 16:19.26 | ads20000 | popnfloss: on the swap point though, I guess you'll have to Google for whatever made the change in Debian and maybe file a bug asking for a revert, is that acceptable behaviour in Debian? |
| 16:19.43 | AliceKelly | how do i find a package if i need a file inside it |
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| 16:20.02 | hicks | apt-file search filename |
| 16:20.02 | ads20000 | popnfloss: alternatively if you can't stand systemd just remove it https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd |
| 16:20.27 | AliceKelly | i need ipw2200 -bss.fw |
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| 16:20.54 | petn-randall | AliceKelly: `apt-file search ipw2200-bss.fw` |
| 16:20.57 | zebmccorkle | ads20000: or use Deuvan |
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| 16:21.13 | ads20000 | zebmccorkle: Yes but moving distribution isn't necessary in this case |
| 16:21.19 | ads20000 | though maybe that's easier than following the wiki |
| 16:21.52 | hicks | Can also apt-cache search ipw and see if any of the firmware related packages list that file. |
| 16:22.56 | popnfloss | hopefully openrc will replace systemd at some point in the future |
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| 16:23.15 | petn-randall | !chat |
| 16:23.15 | dpkg | This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic, or #moocows on irc.oftc.net or ##chat on irc.freenode.net. |
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| 16:24.56 | AliceKelly | i got no output from apt-cache and command not found for apt-file |
| 16:25.18 | petn-randall | AliceKelly: You need to install apt-file first. |
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| 16:27.26 | AliceKelly | installed but still no output for apt-file |
| 16:27.32 | iTeV | petn-randall, TIL about `apt-file` |
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| 16:27.47 | iTeV | AliceKelly, did you execute `apt-file update`? |
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| 16:28.03 | AliceKelly | yes iTeV |
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| 16:28.43 | petn-randall | AliceKelly: You need to enable non-free repos for it to be available. Firmware is nearly always non-free. There's also a chance it hasn't been packaged yet. |
| 16:29.30 | AliceKelly | sorry so noob. how is non free enabled |
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| 16:30.21 | somiaj | !non-free |
| 16:30.21 | dpkg | [non-free] a component which contains software that does not comply with the <DFSG>. To add non-free packages to your packages index, ask me about <non-free sources>. To see which non-free packages are installed ask me about <non-free list>. |
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| 16:31.23 | AliceKelly | !non-free sources |
| 16:31.23 | dpkg | Edit /etc/apt/sources.list, ensure that the two main Debian mirror lines end with "main contrib non-free" rather than just "main", then «apt-get update». But bear in mind that you'll be installing <non-free> software. These may have onerous terms; check the licenses. See also <sources.list>. |
| 16:31.58 | somiaj | oh yea, wrong factoid. |
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| 16:33.07 | Error451 | -love |
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| 16:35.22 | Error451 | -love |
| 16:35.43 | Error451 | derp |
| 16:35.46 | Error451 | sorry |
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| 16:41.38 | AliceKelly | ! radeon |
| 16:41.38 | dpkg | Radeon is a brand of graphic processing units by AMD/ATI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon). The radeon open source display driver is packaged for Debian as xserver-xorg-video-radeon, optionally install libgl1-mesa-dri for 3D acceleration. Also ask me about <radeon firmware>, <radeon audio>. https://wiki.debian.org/AtiHowTo http://x.org/wiki/radeon #radeon on irc.freenode.net. For the proprietary driver, see <fglrx>. |
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| 16:44.05 | AliceKelly | ok so now i need the radeon firmware |
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| 16:44.17 | AliceKelly | !R200_cp.bin |
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| 16:47.06 | AliceKelly | ! non-free sources |
| 16:47.06 | dpkg | Edit /etc/apt/sources.list, ensure that the two main Debian mirror lines end with "main contrib non-free" rather than just "main", then «apt-get update». But bear in mind that you'll be installing <non-free> software. These may have onerous terms; check the licenses. See also <sources.list>. |
| 16:47.37 | somiaj | AliceKelly: you can /msg dpkg factoid to get that info and not need to paste it to the channel |
| 16:48.35 | AliceKelly | sorry. just saw someone do it |
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| 16:50.55 | somiaj | AliceKelly: understand, hence why I am informing you that you can get info from the bot in /msg if needed |
| 16:51.39 | AliceKelly | i like that bot |
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| 16:54.48 | AliceKelly | bbl |
| 16:54.55 | AliceKelly | exit |
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| 16:55.44 | JyZyXEL | what does it mean when bonnie++ gives a result "+++++" for the Create tests? |
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| 17:04.36 | jim | hi... I just discovered that the version of ip at git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/network/iproute2/iproute2.git has working json output with ip route... I was wondering when that would get into sid |
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| 17:07.40 | somiaj | jim: is this a build time compliation flag, or a new feature that is in a version not part of debian yet? |
| 17:07.43 | somiaj | ,v iproute2 |
| 17:07.44 | judd | Package: iproute2 on amd64 -- wheezy-backports: 3.16.0-2~bpo70+1; jessie: 3.16.0-2; stretch: 4.9.0-1+deb9u1; stretch-backports: 4.14.1-1~bpo9+1; buster: 4.16.0-4; sid: 4.16.0-4 |
| 17:08.03 | somiaj | jim: also testing/unstable questions are best asked in #debian-next on irc.oftc.net |
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| 17:10.02 | somiaj | but it appears that sid as the current release of 4.16.0, so if the feature is in 4.16.0 it should be there, if it is an feature that needs a configure flag (compile time change), maybe a wishlist bug is needed to request that it be included. |
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| 17:10.24 | somiaj | if the feature is going to be in the next release, it looks like you'll have to wait until the 4.16.0 release for it. |
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| 17:10.47 | jim | somiaj, well I couldn't find it in debian |
| 17:11.11 | somiaj | that doens't answer the question. Is this a new feature that will is not in the 4.16.0 release, or is this a compile time flag. |
| 17:11.20 | jim | oh, sid does have it? |
| 17:11.26 | jim | let me check something |
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| 17:12.59 | somiaj | seems json support was added before the 4.16.0 release, but sometimes features are experimental and not included by default for a while...so the answer to the question goes back to, is this something that needs to be enabled at build time. |
| 17:13.00 | Unit193 | jim: `ip -j link` |
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| 17:13.21 | jim | ok, ip -V says ip utility, iproute2-ss180402 |
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| 17:14.13 | jim | (of the ip with working json for ip route) |
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| 17:15.16 | somiaj | again that isn't that useful, debian seems to only package the release, so it is eitehr enabled in 4.16.0 and thus in sid, or it isn't, and if so you'll have to wait for the next release and see if it is enabled int hat. Though Unit193 seems to suggest it works (don't have a sid box to test) |
| 17:15.39 | somiaj | jim: also in the future, bring testing/unstable questions to #debian-next on irc.oftc.net, you'll get more people who use sid and can test such stuff. |
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| 17:16.09 | Unit193 | somiaj: To add some more words, yes it seems to be working in some of the commands, specifically the one I typed should show you json output, it seems. |
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| 17:18.07 | jim | Unit193, the one I just compiled works with these: ip -json route and ip -json route show exact 0.0.0.0/0 |
| 17:18.59 | Unit193 | jim: So yes, you'll have to wait for iproute2 to have another release before Debian will pick up those changes. |
| 17:19.23 | jim | somiaj, right, my question was really "when is that version of ip/that functionality going to get into debian at all" |
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| 17:20.23 | somiaj | jim: which is a #debian-next question, since sid is the places such things get put. And in general debian prefers to only include the releases, and not snapshots of a git branch. Though depending on the software this isn't always the case (espically if no release has been made, or releases are slow) |
| 17:20.56 | jim | Unit193, that git address has the stable version at that exact address, and they're working on the next one at .../iproute2-next.git |
| 17:21.00 | somiaj | so first there needs to be a new release, and then it can take a few weeks (or longer) for the matainer to put it into a debian package. |
| 17:22.54 | jim | that's not a release? |
| 17:23.30 | somiaj | nope, it seems like it is a branch where commits for the next release are pooling, but it hasn't been released yet. The last release was 4.16.0 according to git, and that is the version in debian. |
| 17:23.54 | jim | ok, thanks for the info |
| 17:24.21 | bitess | so whenever sid get's the next kernel, probably. |
| 17:24.23 | Unit193 | 27 commits after the last release in that repo, yep. |
| 17:24.41 | somiaj | looking at the history, release seem to be abotu every 2-3 months, and 4.16.0 is 7 weeks old, so there will be a new release soon, after that give time for the debian package to be made and wait for the 4.17.0 (or whatever they call the next relaese) to be added |
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| 17:26.02 | jim | btw, the json output on iproute looks great, and easy to parse using jq |
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| 17:29.43 | Looan | https://tinyurl.com/ya79dnx5 |
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| 17:30.47 | somiaj | Looan: this is not a place to just share links without context. |
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| 17:31.48 | bitess | he's fishing ip addresses. |
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| 17:33.49 | somiaj | yea that was my thought, though waiting for a response before I kick. |
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| 18:04.32 | alduin_ | should i install the firmware for the network card? |
| 18:04.44 | alduin_ | it seems that it is going anyway |
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| 18:22.33 | rant | if you nic requires firmware and you want to use it, then thats probably a good idea |
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| 18:33.36 | jiggawattz | Does Hurd support 512 MB RAM yet ? |
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| 18:37.54 | jelly-home | jiggawattz: best ask in #hurd |
| 18:38.13 | jiggawattz | jelly-home: no Debian GNU/Hurd support in here ? |
| 18:38.14 | jiggawattz | ok |
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| 18:40.32 | jelly-home | jiggawattz: there is a very slim chance someone knowledgeable in hurd is going to read your questions here before it scrolls off |
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| 18:42.36 | jiggawattz | jelly: very good point |
| 18:42.40 | jiggawattz | you should be President jelly |
| 18:44.50 | jelly | best keep comments in here to tech support issues, please |
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| 18:49.12 | RoyK | dpkg: tell jiggawattz about ask |
| 18:49.35 | rant | you really dont wanna bait this one |
| 18:49.39 | jiggawattz | RoyK: I want to know if Hurd supports 512 MB RAM yet |
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| 18:50.00 | jiggawattz | RoyK: I am talking about Debian GNU/Hurd |
| 18:50.12 | jelly | try it and see |
| 18:50.29 | jiggawattz | I don't have the box yet |
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| 18:50.35 | jiggawattz | I'm planning to order RAM soon |
| 18:50.43 | jiggawattz | need to know if i can get away with 512 MB |
| 18:51.00 | jiggawattz | Debian GNU/Hurd is going straight on it though |
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| 18:51.07 | jelly | and you have a pointed to a better place to ask |
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| 18:57.41 | ross` | http://scpb.in/beautifulsoup |
| 18:57.59 | rant | ross`: what about beautifulsoup? |
| 18:58.12 | ross` | debian pip3 doesn't want to install it and I don't know why |
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| 18:58.19 | ross` | sytax error in the installation script |
| 18:58.30 | rant | why wouldnt you just use the package? |
| 18:58.52 | ross` | hmmm? |
| 18:58.53 | ross` | ok |
| 18:58.54 | bitess | pip3 in debian is too old for some things. you can set up a virtualenv and update pip inside that venv. |
| 18:58.58 | alkisg | jiggawattz: you can run recent kernels with 64 MB RAM. You can't decently run recent browsers with youtube, gmail etc with 512 RAM. So it's not a kernel/OS issue, it's a browser issue. If you don't care about browsers, sure, 512 is fine |
| 18:59.26 | rant | ross`: apt install python3-bs4 |
| 18:59.33 | jiggawattz | alkisg: I'm talking about Hurd though |
| 18:59.55 | jiggawattz | it used to be that Hurd only supported *maximum* 64 MB RAM or something |
| 19:00.05 | ross` | rant: done |
| 19:00.18 | rant | its a bit misleading because we have a python-beautifulsoup metapackage for python 2 but no python3-beautifulsoup, but the actual beautiful soup packages are -bs4 |
| 19:00.31 | jiggawattz | yeah that's bs |
| 19:00.43 | jiggawattz | Ian M. needs to fix his naming conventions |
| 19:00.44 | rant | ross`: then you're good to go.. I use beautifulsoup a lot myself |
| 19:00.48 | jiggawattz | dig his ass up |
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| 19:00.57 | jiggawattz | breathe some life into him and tell him to get back to work |
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| 19:02.36 | rant | goes to work coloring some diazepam to look like skittles for jiggawattz |
| 19:02.41 | alkisg | jiggawattz: I haven't used hurd, but what I'm saying is, even if you find a kernel that only needs 1 Kb, still firefox won't decently work with 512 MB |
| 19:02.59 | alkisg | So if you care about browsing... get some RAM |
| 19:03.01 | jiggawattz | I'm not trying to run Firefox on 512 MB lol |
| 19:03.13 | jiggawattz | I doubt any mainstream web browsers run on Hurd |
| 19:03.28 | alkisg | ok |
| 19:03.49 | jiggawattz | maybe Midori |
| 19:03.55 | jiggawattz | Midori runs on Hurd I think |
| 19:04.06 | jiggawattz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(web_browser) |
| 19:04.49 | alkisg | Same thing, it's the web, not the browsers |
| 19:05.02 | rozie | links2 -g FTW |
| 19:05.04 | alkisg | (well unless you want dillo without any html5/css3 etc stuff) |
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| 19:05.08 | rozie | if you don't need JS |
| 19:05.36 | rant | yes I had this pain recently on my orange pi lite.. used mostly links2 |
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| 19:05.45 | rozie | Firefox will run on 0,5 GB |
| 19:05.55 | rozie | just don't use more than 1-2 tabs |
| 19:06.03 | alkisg | I have 100 schools with firefox + 512 RAM. They do complain a lot :) |
| 19:06.14 | rozie | at least it worked 1-2 years ago |
| 19:06.28 | rozie | it was even less, like 400 MB |
| 19:07.01 | rant | yes my orange pi lite has 512MB but its shared with the video |
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| 19:07.21 | rozie | you can also experiment with zram |
| 19:07.30 | rant | took minutes for FF to even start and be ready to use.. and it was not vry usable even then |
| 19:08.01 | rant | can't experiment with zram on the orange pi lite very easily cause the kernels that work properly with it are too old to support it |
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| 19:08.53 | rant | though support for the H3 are nearing usable in mainstream and armbian has a mainline strech image for it being tested now |
| 19:10.03 | rant | I gave up and got an AMD G-Series SoC thin client w/ 4GB ram and 8GB m.2 ssd |
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| 19:10.38 | rant | now I can run dual heads, watch netflix in FF, etc.. and have no more headaches |
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| 19:56.08 | pxc2 | can anyone here help me figure out how to do something with initramfs-tools (or if it's not possible)? |
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| 19:57.14 | rant | pxc2: probably not.. you have to ask the question not ask to ask it |
| 19:57.23 | rant | we're not mind readers |
| 19:57.35 | pxc2 | fair enough. I'm just afraid that if I type too much, it will be ignored |
| 19:57.54 | rant | pxc2: well then try outline breifly at first what you wish to accomplish |
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| 19:58.00 | pxc2 | I have a systemd unit that lives outside the root filesystem. How can I mount it early enough that systemd can see it without me calling `systemd daemon-reload` |
| 19:58.30 | rant | so you want to toss a sysd unit into your initrd ? |
| 19:58.49 | pxc2 | rant: well, the filesystem containing it |
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| 20:00.24 | rant | I'm not real savvy in this area but seems to be moving the unit into initrd or something more easily accessed by it is the simpler solution |
| 20:00.41 | rant | not even to mention safer |
| 20:00.45 | pxc2 | rant: the unit starts a service whose executable also lives on that partition |
| 20:00.57 | pxc2 | if the partition's not mounted, the service can't be launched anyway |
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| 20:01.19 | rant | and you absolutely need this before the system is up and running? |
| 20:01.55 | fassl | hello, i am trying to install grub-pc within a shell script like chroot /mnt /bin/bash --login -c "apt install --yes grub-pc" but it gives me a messagebox via whiptail i cannot interact with, does anybody know how to fix this? |
| 20:02.02 | pxc2 | rant: without it, systemd won't even know the service exists, because the symlink to it in /etc/systemd/system will be broken. It won't read the unit and it'll have to be reread after the system has booted |
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| 20:03.23 | rant | idk not sure I know how to help but sounds to me like you're going about this the wrong way.. but I dont know enough on this to be certain just sounds like a case wheer you should zoom out and let us try help you from square one rather than this roadblock you created :P |
| 20:04.18 | pxc2 | I might be inclined to think so if on my usual distro, specifying filesystems to be mounted during stage 1 of boot (in the initial ramdisk) weren't trivial |
| 20:04.33 | rant | fassl: robably debconf, and debconf dialogs can be supressed though I dont recall how to manage the levels off the top of my head |
| 20:04.46 | pxc2 | the filesystem here is hardly even a separate filesystem; it's just a btrfs subvolume I created so I could disable CoW |
| 20:05.11 | rant | sounds like you got a hot mess goin on :P |
| 20:05.21 | fassl | rant, i can suppress it also via DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive, but i actually have to choose the disk i want it to install to :/ |
| 20:05.31 | pxc2 | but here's the zoomed-out version |
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| 20:05.39 | rant | pxc2: out of curiousity are you running stretch with a btrfs root fs? |
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| 20:06.07 | fassl | rant, do you know if there maybe is a debconf parameter i can set for the target disk? |
| 20:06.15 | pxc2 | rant: I'm running Ubuntu, but I know initramfs-tools is a debian thing so I came here |
| 20:06.48 | pxc2 | this is 18.04 in this case. I'm setting something up for my non-technical roommate and I wanted something he could easily install 3rd-party software for if he tried |
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| 20:07.12 | pxc2 | the service is the Nix daemon, which lives on the @nix subvolume of the btrfs partition on / |
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| 20:07.51 | rant | fassl: there are certainly ways to do it as there are FAI but I'm not familiar with it |
| 20:07.51 | somiaj | pxc2: this is a debian support chanel, not ubuntu |
| 20:08.02 | fassl | i thought about just installing it while i am not in the chroot, but it is a live distro and it fails, maybe because /boot (while not in the chroot) is readonly? |
| 20:08.23 | somiaj | pxc2: ubuntu kernels and as an extension initramfs are different than debian, you should use the suggested ubuntu tools for that. |
| 20:08.43 | fassl | but grub-pc actually just installs the mbr, not? |
| 20:09.02 | somiaj | yea grub-pc is for the class legacy boot grub that grub-install will install into the mbr |
| 20:09.11 | rant | fassl: well yes but it has to read kernels and configs from /boot and /etc |
| 20:09.29 | pxc2 | somiaj: the question is about the capabilities of initramfs-tools. Is Ubuntu's copy of initramfs-tools such a divergent fork that it doesn't have the same capabilities of Debian's? |
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| 20:09.39 | rant | it'll also need access to /proc and /dev |
| 20:10.11 | somiaj | pxc2: #debian supports users of debian, and not any derivatives, even if the tools are similar. |
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| 20:11.31 | rant | our scope here is actually even more narrow than that.. we mostly just support stable branches here |
| 20:11.55 | pxc2 | well where can I ask people who know things about Debian tooling general questions, then? |
| 20:12.38 | rant | but my original thought remains that you're probably going about this all wrong to begin with.. if you want the level of support Debian has you should've installed Stretch |
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| 20:13.11 | rant | I understand the decision to use something else for a non-technical person.. I ofen have isntalled LMDE for less technical people |
| 20:13.33 | rant | but usually if I was not planning on supporting them further.. if I planned on supporting them I just used Debian stable |
| 20:14.16 | r3 | loves his Debian boxes and find them to be excellently stable and feature-rich |
| 20:14.28 | r3 | finds* |
| 20:14.38 | RichRey | guys, why there is an error after i type apt-get install gcc-++ |
| 20:14.59 | RichRey | Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. ? |
| 20:17.08 | annadane | !bat |
| 20:17.08 | dpkg | In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use http://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>. |
| 20:17.10 | annadane | RichRey, ^ |
| 20:17.12 | pxc2 | the version of initramfs-tools on Ubuntu Bionic is the same one as on Debian Stretch. The dpkg sources don't contain any patches |
| 20:17.18 | annadane | at the very least, provide some output to paste.debian.net |
| 20:17.41 | annadane | some people find step 2 is a little too much, but it's not bad to include it |
| 20:17.42 | fassl | rant, i think this might be it https://serverfault.com/a/310503 |
| 20:17.56 | pxc2 | but that's fine, I'm only a user of Debian tools and not an entire Debian release. I was hoping someone knew the answer to a generic question that applies to the whole family of distros |
| 20:18.15 | annadane | you can also use aptitude for more detailed dependency information (just don't blindly accept its proposed solutions) |
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| 20:18.57 | rant | pxc2: you're hitting a dead end and it wasnt the recent decision to come to #d for help with ubuntu it was knowing you're setting up a system for a non-technical person then making the setup insanely overly technical.. using complex setups of new and barely tested fs..etc |
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| 20:19.17 | rant | pxc2: for an inexperienced user you want to keep the setup as simple and as well supported as possible |
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| 20:22.17 | pxc2 | rant: I've run btrfs on root for years. This is not a btrfs issue. The 'complexity' of Nix is going to be totally invisible to the user when this is done. Debian and Ubuntu use systemd but it appears to be ignoring fstab options relating to it: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.mount.html |
| 20:22.23 | rant | pxc2: while its painful and annoying to backup and have someone tell you to do somethign TOTALLY different, its just as annoying for vounteer supporters to have to go through all the headache that got you in this frustrating mess just to try help you with it. Best help you can get here is for you to let us help you plan out how to setup a debian stable system to do what you want |
| 20:23.13 | pxc2 | I've manually run the systemd fstab generator to no avail, generated a new initramfs using the update-grub wrapper, no dice |
| 20:23.32 | rant | in IT when you know more than someone, like you know more than your friend.. sometimes you just gotta tell people what you're trying to do is stupid rather than letting it tickle your brain into a challenge |
| 20:23.57 | pxc2 | if you can tell me how to mount an arbitrary non-root filesystem during stage 1 of boot on Debian Stretch and I can get it to work in a VM, I will have all the answers to my questions |
| 20:24.23 | somiaj | pxc2: please respect the users (who volunteer their time here) and have chosen to support Debian (not ubuntu). The fact that you fail to gasp this shows you just want free support, read the warranty, that software comes as is, you can read the source code and docs, or you can pay conical for enterpise support. |
| 20:24.52 | somiaj | there is #ubuntu and ##linux, manu users are in both places, because they choose to support both, we here choose to support debian. |
| 20:25.08 | annadane | i just hang out here because i'm bored *shrug* |
| 20:25.17 | rant | pxc2: if thats all you want, keep your question that simple and try one of our more developer type channels on OFTC where they fool with initrd a whole lot more |
| 20:25.53 | pxc2 | somiaj: sorry, I don't mean to be belligerent. I just insist that what I want to do is not crazy; I know it can be done because I do it on other distros |
| 20:26.00 | somiaj | and initrd and the tools are part of the kernel, if you want support for a tool, go to the support locations for such tool. |
| 20:26.10 | pxc2 | rant: I will look for those other channels, that might be what I want |
| 20:27.05 | rant | pxc2: here myself and others will always strongly suggest you just install stable and let us help you work around issues with a system we can reproduce issues and test on |
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| 20:29.02 | somiaj | I'm more you have the freedom to choose the distro/os you like best, I don't recommend ubuntu users install debian, but realize that part of choosing a distro (or software in general) is the support network. When people use open source stuff I think they forget that. You don't go to BSD for questions about the mac osX, despite it is based on the bsd kernel. |
| 20:29.12 | pxc2 | somiaj: initramfs-tools is a Debian project! The initramfs generation tool associated with the Linux kernel proper (hosted on kernel.org) is dracut |
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| 20:29.50 | somiaj | this is a support channel for the os, not the tools on it. If you ran vim on fedora, would you think #debian should help support that? |
| 20:30.05 | rant | that is one of the main reasons I stuck with Debian even in trying times like with systemd, cause this community means more to me than any other aspect of choosing Debuan |
| 20:30.11 | rant | Debian* |
| 20:30.43 | annadane | no, debuan is a debian fork :P |
| 20:30.44 | somiaj | note as rant pointed out, yes some software does have debian as the upstream source, but #debian is more end user support for the os in general, there are other channels on irc.debian.net for that. |
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| 20:31.23 | annadane | do you mean irc.oftc.net or is there really an irc.debian.net |
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| 20:31.33 | somiaj | annadane: irc.debian.net points to irc.oftc.net |
| 20:31.38 | annadane | oh. TIL. |
| 20:31.47 | somiaj | sorry it is irc.debian.org |
| 20:31.54 | rant | annadane: irc.debian.org is the debian irc redirect that used to point here |
| 20:32.16 | bananskalet | hi all.. i got an stupid question. I have an powermac G5 (PPC) Is it possible to install debian on that? |
| 20:32.31 | annadane | (not a stupid question) |
| 20:32.39 | somiaj | bananskalet: possible yes, but only via unoffical ports that aren't fully supported and do require a bit of messing around. |
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| 20:32.56 | rant | bananskalet: yes, but unfortunately not a new version of debian.. we dropped ppc support in recent releases and only now support ppc 64bit archs |
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| 20:33.12 | somiaj | bananskalet: https://www.ports.debian.org/ |
| 20:33.18 | pxc2 | would #debian-kernel on irc.debian.org be an appropriate place for questions about initramfs-tools? |
| 20:33.37 | somiaj | rant: there is still unoffical supports from stretch (maybe testing) that works, but the support is limited and finding kowledgeable users if you run into issues is too. |
| 20:33.46 | bananskalet | rant: is it ppc64 i should look at? |
| 20:33.56 | rant | pxc2: it'd be a better place than here.. but as I said when you head to OFTC keep your questions simple like how to mount an arbitrary fs in initrd |
| 20:34.12 | rant | bananskalet: no because your hw is the old 32bit hw |
| 20:34.35 | somiaj | bananskalet: https://wiki.debian.org/PowerPCSPEPort I think that is the prot you want. |
| 20:34.37 | pxc2 | ok. Thanks for your patience, folks. I've been frustrated, and I presume, a little frustrating, but you've been very gracious. |
| 20:34.39 | bananskalet | im new about this with linux. and i want to use this pease of crap |
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| 20:35.02 | rant | pxc2: we appreciate your patience as well |
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| 20:35.43 | rant | bananskalet: how much ram does that machine have? |
| 20:35.52 | bananskalet | 8 gb |
| 20:36.02 | rant | ah, well then sure it may be worth the effort :P |
| 20:36.02 | bananskalet | and 8 tb of hdd |
| 20:36.07 | somiaj | bananskalet: https://wiki.debian.org/PowerPC -- maybe start there. You could install jessie, but it is hitting end of life, and powerpc won't be a supported arch at that point. |
| 20:36.16 | annadane | i probably should consider stable, i always go back and forth on what i actually want to use |
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| 20:36.37 | bananskalet | i want to use it as an webserver "WAMP" |
| 20:36.46 | rant | annadane: do you have multi-head or ability to do it? |
| 20:36.57 | annadane | huh? |
| 20:37.03 | rant | annadane: more than one monitor |
| 20:37.09 | annadane | negative |
| 20:37.09 | somiaj | bananskalet: I know the transition from an offical port, to an unoffical port has made a lot of docs outdated, there is a powerpc channel on irc.oftc.net, but it has a low population so you need to be paitent if asking for help there. |
| 20:37.30 | rant | annadane: cause if you were to setup multiple screens we could probably finagle something you'd be a whole lot more comfortable with :P |
| 20:37.37 | bananskalet | somiaj: okey =) |
| 20:38.10 | rant | annadane: have stable on one screen and testing/unstable on another :P but its still doable I guess without multiple screens |
| 20:38.10 | annadane | oh i'm comfortable with either, just that newer versions of java crash some programs not for a technical reason but for a policy reason, and it's silly |
| 20:38.30 | annadane | it's not just stable, it's the free software ecosystem where people tend to use standards a year or so older |
| 20:38.42 | fassl | rant, yeah that was it, thx for the help |
| 20:40.11 | annadane | and i guess stable comes with a guarantee, i don't know |
| 20:40.17 | annadane | i'm just fickle |
| 20:40.44 | somiaj | annadane: well all debian software comes with the 'as is' guarntee, but debian tries to make debian stable relaible and secure as poosible using volunteers. |
| 20:40.45 | bananskalet | somiaj: finding alot of documents on " https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/inst/pmac " but no ISO's :S |
| 20:40.47 | rant | stable does not come with any gaurentee, just more widely supported |
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| 20:41.06 | somiaj | bananskalet: yea, because it isn't in the offical repos anymore, it is unoffical, so thus otudated docs that haven't been updated. |
| 20:41.25 | annadane | well, guarantee that it's more tested, i mean |
| 20:41.30 | bananskalet | somiaj: so the ISO's are hard to get? |
| 20:41.37 | somiaj | bananskalet: you might be able to find .iso's for jessie, but that is it. |
| 20:41.58 | somiaj | bananskalet: I dont' know, I just know the transition to having info easily aviable for people who want to use the unoffical port is limited. |
| 20:42.25 | rant | annadane: the catch there is that if enough of us dont use testing/unstable to report bugs, then testing will get frozen with bugs never reported to be sqaushed |
| 20:42.34 | annadane | but yeah, it's a consideration. java 9/10 is not only a new product, it's a product the rest of the world has to get accustomed to first |
| 20:42.42 | annadane | yeah, definitely |
| 20:42.55 | somiaj | rant: luckly there is enough sns going on, any major bugs are found quite quickly. |
| 20:43.17 | rant | somiaj: i case you're not aware, I'm the one that coined that term :P |
| 20:43.18 | somiaj | rant: even when I use to run sid, I would almost always find a bug report on a recent upgrade on the issue and not have to submit one. |
| 20:43.25 | annadane | pabs talked a bit how upstream testing has also improved |
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| 20:43.46 | annadane | automated, i mean |
| 20:43.49 | somiaj | there is a lot more automated stuff too, which is nice, because debian is spread thin these days with 20,000+ packages. |
| 20:44.30 | rant | somiaj: that was my experience too for the years I ran sid.. I kept finding bugs only to realize they been found already :P |
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| 20:44.53 | annadane | it's circumstantial and people should use what serves them best, i think for me i'm leaning a bit more towards stable at present |
| 20:45.07 | somiaj | rant: I think the debian derivatives help out a lot, a lot of those devs have a sid box and test things out. |
| 20:45.09 | bananskalet | somiaj: found it =) |
| 20:45.16 | bananskalet | " https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.11.0/powerpc/iso-dvd/ " |
| 20:45.32 | somiaj | bananskalet: that is wheezy, that has been outdated for years, expect tons of security holes. |
| 20:45.43 | somiaj | look for 8.9 iso's, jessie should ahve some |
| 20:45.45 | bananskalet | is 8 jessie? |
| 20:45.54 | bitess | stable supplemented by formats like appimage and snap covers pretty much everything i need. |
| 20:46.02 | bananskalet | darn stoping the download |
| 20:46.21 | rant | somiaj: I see all the other distros as helping out in their own way.. hell armbian isnt even a distro really.. they only have a kernel and a few support packages for various hw, and an installer script.. they rely wholly on unmodified ubuntu or debian repos.. yet their work ensures we all have better support for arm architecture |
| 20:46.29 | annadane | the latest jessie (and last, probably) is 8.10, i didn't see the context of the earlier discussion |
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| 20:47.19 | bananskalet | somiaj: 8.10 is on download now |
| 20:47.37 | bananskalet | 2 min for 4 gb =) |
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| 20:48.19 | annadane | debian's solid enough that if you're just a bit careful unstable can be fine for a desktop, i think i prefer using it (wouldn't recommend it as a matter of principle, of course) |
| 20:49.05 | somiaj | rant: yup, it is a nice network. I think the derivatives help out a lot, sometimes their users are a bit dense though. Because their matainers properly report bugs to either the debian package (if appropriate) or upstream (if appropriate) which ends up helping debian eitehr way. |
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| 20:49.18 | rant | I just expect people who run testing/unstable to at least know how to work the bts if not be fairly savvy with resolving package issues |
| 20:49.41 | somiaj | annadane: it has been a long time since sid has destroeyd data, but it has happened, there was one bug in sid that took out many machines destorying all data on them. |
| 20:49.51 | somiaj | but this was now 15+ years ago. |
| 20:50.13 | annadane | hence why i use the word 'guarantee' informally in spite of a lack of actual, bonefide guarantee |
| 20:50.33 | annadane | not bug free, but avoids things like that |
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| 20:52.57 | rant | idk.. LTS is suppose to be like 5 years.. Jessie shouldnt be near EOL yet |
| 20:53.02 | rant | dpkg jessie? |
| 20:53.02 | dpkg | Jessie is the codename for the current <oldstable> release, Debian 8, released on 2015-04-25: http://www.debian.org/News/2015/20150426 ; security support ends 2018-05-17 but ask me about <jessie-lts>. Jessie is the cowgirl in Toy Story 2. See http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJessie and ask me about <install jessie> <release notes> <wheezy->jessie>. Currently <8.10>. |
| 20:53.08 | annadane | stable has release notes for major changes, unstable doesn't etc |
| 20:53.15 | annadane | though yeah there's a mailing list |
| 20:53.22 | annadane | debian-devel-announce, or something |
| 20:53.36 | rant | apparently it just lost security support this week, but should be on LTS for 2 more years |
| 20:53.47 | rant | dpkg jessie-lts? |
| 20:53.47 | dpkg | Security support for Debian 8 "jessie" from the Debian Security Team will end 2018-05-17. The amd64, i386, armel and armhf architectures will receive additional long term support (<LTS>) via <jessie/updates> until around 2020 for a 5 year lifetime total. See https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information |
| 20:54.23 | rant | ah.. I forgot about that tidbit.. only certain archs recieve LTS |
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| 20:56.19 | rant | maybe I'll upgrade this box this weekend.. can go over to my father's house after I start the upgrade from here and make sure he doesnt have any issues after its updated |
| 20:56.36 | annadane | ah, you're converting him :P |
| 20:56.37 | rant | need to move his MS Office from an ancient Crossover to Wine |
| 20:57.02 | rant | did that years ago.. but he's on jessie with a really old crossover running MS Office which is why I havent upgraded him yet |
| 20:57.14 | rant | he uses MS Office a lot and it'll certainly break when it upgrades |
| 20:57.20 | somiaj | rant: what version of ms office? |
| 20:57.34 | rant | um.. idk.. I think its either 97 or 2003 |
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| 20:57.57 | rant | I tried to get him to use libre but he's stubborn and used to where things are in ms office |
| 20:58.11 | annadane | i thought you said you wanted to move him away from jessie to stretch but he didn't want to |
| 20:58.14 | annadane | could be wrong |
| 20:58.18 | somiaj | rant: well jessie is EOL, but lts is something different, I only menteioned it because powerppc won't get any support from lts |
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| 20:58.38 | somiaj | rant: the wine in stretch should work fine in that. I have 2007 which is the newest version that works well in wine. |
| 20:58.50 | rant | annadane: he doesnt even know what a jessie or stretch is.. as long as nothing LOOKS different or behaves different he'd not know the difference |
| 20:59.38 | somiaj | rant: I would just use wine-development over the stock wine just to ensure things work nicely. |
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| 21:00.18 | rant | somiaj: yeah I had grabbed crossover back in idk 2008ish when they had issued the lame duck presidential challenge on GWB and said if any of their conditions were met, they'd give their software away for free until the end of the month.. then gas prices fell below $3/gal and they had a hard time keepin their servers up from how many people were downloading :P |
| 21:00.20 | somiaj | rant: wine-development is 2.0 in stretch which should be more than enough for 2003 |
| 21:00.41 | rant | so its like a really old crossover I put on there for his office cause last I done anything like that crossover > wine for that stuff |
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| 21:00.49 | rant | but wine has dratically improved |
| 21:01.30 | rant | if his office were running under wine I'd have already upgraded without worries.. but having that 3rd party crap on there worries me.. I need to be there physically to make sure it goes smoothly |
| 21:01.44 | annadane | would you like a HAZMAT suit? |
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| 21:04.19 | somiaj | rant: jessie has 1.7.29 for wine-development which might be enough, you could at least test before upgrading. |
| 21:04.27 | somiaj | but 2.0 would be my suggestion |
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| 21:05.08 | rant | somiaj: well whaever he got on there now it unconvered some odd bug with saving files that idk how the hell windows hides.. |
| 21:05.30 | rant | it doesnt want to overwrite a file or some crap like that |
| 21:05.39 | rant | have to keep saving things as a new name |
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| 21:06.04 | rant | the bug is in MS Office cause I looked it up and it was on MS's knowledge db |
| 21:06.05 | somiaj | well wine is version 1.6.2. Oh looks like 1.8.7 is available via backports too as things to test, if you watned to test before upgrading. |
| 21:06.28 | somiaj | but I have been using 2007 since 2.0 and haven't had many issues (though I use it so rarely, only when a coworker sends me something libreoffice can't deal with) |
| 21:06.49 | rant | thing I dont have time for is to drive 35mi and spend all day there.. I was thinking I can just start the upgrade from here and by time I get there it'll be done and ready for me to do any minor fixes |
| 21:07.06 | somiaj | rant: 3.0 is also avalible via stretch-backports if you have trouble with 2.0, I bet both would work fine. |
| 21:07.21 | rant | just call and let him know not to reboot or close any apps while i'm doing it |
| 21:07.47 | pxc | rant, somiaj: so I didn't find any documentation on it, but I suspected that maybe dracut (used for initramfs generation on Fedora, openSUSE, RHEL and several others) would respect the x-initrd.mount option in /etc/fstab, since the systemd folks are also at RedHat. It appears dracut ships with a slightly broken configuration on Ubuntu (asking to add a kernel module which I think no longer exists in kernel 4.15, because ext4 used to depend |
| 21:07.47 | rant | cause he normally leaves FF runnin all the time anyhow.. if he closes crap during the upgrade it may start the new version and have issues |
| 21:07.48 | pxc | on it) |
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| 21:08.33 | pxc | after fixing up the config and running `dpkg-reconfigure dracut`, I crossed my fingers and rebooted, and now the system is mounted during stage 1, just like the systemd man page said it should! |
| 21:08.44 | pxc | the external filesystem that is |
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| 21:08.55 | rant | It'd take me 2hrs roughly to get there by bus.. all the packages would long since d/l and unpack in that time |
| 21:09.12 | rant | and I can ssh in from my phone on the way |
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| 21:09.40 | somiaj | pxc: glad you found your issue, hope it works. If it is actually a bug in the debian package, it would be nice if you could reproudce it in sid and report a bug. |
| 21:09.42 | rant | I use his box for irc and my bot since his connection is more reliable |
| 21:09.46 | pxc | too bad Thomas Lange, Debian package maintainer doesn't seem to be in here. If anyone in this channel happens to know that guy, tell him a random stranger says 'God bless you!', or equivalent polite expression |
| 21:10.01 | pxc | he's the guy who put dracut in, even though it's not used by default in Debian yet |
| 21:10.16 | annadane | the emails of maintainers are generally available |
| 21:10.18 | pxc | somiaj: I"ll make a note to come back to it and file a bug |
| 21:10.29 | pxc | annadane: good point. I'll send him a thank-you email |
| 21:10.34 | somiaj | There are very few (if no) DD's here. The few that use irc are on the offical irc network, irc.oftc.net. I know a few who hang out in #debian-enxt |
| 21:10.53 | rant | pabs is online daily on OFTC |
| 21:10.58 | somiaj | (though generally you contact matainers though bug reports, not emailing them directly -- but this is a tahnk you) |
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| 21:25.44 | Meerkat | I noticed a new major release of VLC for Debian. Has anyone had any issues with the upgrade to vlc 3.0.2? |
| 21:26.24 | rant | Meerkat: bugs.debian.org/vlc |
| 21:26.57 | rant | ,v vlc |
| 21:26.58 | judd | Package: vlc on amd64 -- wheezy: 2.0.3-5+deb7u2+b1; wheezy-security: 2.0.3-5+deb7u2+b1; wheezy-backports: 2.1.5-1~bpo70+1; jessie: 2.2.7-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 2.2.7-1~deb8u1; stretch: 2.2.7-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 3.0.2-0+deb9u1; stretch-security: 3.0.2-0+deb9u1; buster: 3.0.2-1+b1; sid: 3.0.2-1+b1; wheezy-multimedia: 1:2.0.6-dmo3+deb7u2; jessie-multimedia: |
| 21:26.59 | judd | 1:2.2.8-dmo1+deb8u1; stretch-multimedia: 1:2.2.8-dmo1+deb9u1; buster-multimedia: 1:3.0.2-dmo2; sid-multimedia: 1:3.0.2-dmo2 |
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| 21:30.40 | somiaj | Meerkat: you may need to do a dist-upgrade to pull in some other depends. I have heard of few people have issues due to the version bump of vlc. Debian had to do the version bump due to security issues. |
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| 21:35.13 | kot | somiaj, thanks, good to know. |
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| 21:38.12 | annadane | Meerkat, i believe someone said their VLC window was several times bigger |
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| 21:40.03 | somiaj | that person ended up fixinging it by going into full 4k mode, it is like vlc detected teh mointiors capability, not the current view port |
| 21:40.30 | somiaj | Others have had to reconfigure it, maybe nuke the old configuration. |
| 21:40.52 | somiaj | anyways, debian tries to avoid version bumps for this patciular reason, but some security fixes just cannot be resonablly backported by the limited security team. |
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| 21:46.02 | annadane | 4k mode in vlc or the monitor? |
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| 21:46.14 | bananskalet | somiaj: working perfectly now =) |
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| 21:46.33 | bananskalet | somiaj: 600% faster |
| 21:46.38 | somiaj | nice, (: |
| 21:46.55 | somiaj | annadane: the monintor, but the current resolution was set at 1080p |
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| 21:47.38 | bananskalet | somiaj: tossed in more hdd so now its 12 TB plus 512Gb SSD (OS) |
| 21:48.53 | somiaj | note jessie is loosing security support, so I would look into the unoffical support and realize you may be running on insecure stuff (so limit what the server is used for) |
| 21:49.52 | bananskalet | somiaj: it will be an pure webserver. SQL and other stuff are on different servers. And the filehost is files that ppl can freely download from me =) |
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| 21:51.08 | somiaj | ppc is also harder to crack, so you may have that going for you, just saying, be careful, don't want your server to turn into a drone serving illegal content. |
| 21:51.09 | bananskalet | somiaj: and the "G5 server" will be good protected with my firewalls. so it cant backtalk to my main servers |
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| 21:52.38 | bananskalet | somiaj: its no illigal stuff. Its ISO files with an os for ppl with disability's |
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| 21:53.04 | bananskalet | an os that we have worked on for the last 6 years |
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| 21:58.28 | bananskalet | somiaj: one more stupid question. i have been googleing on web servers and stuff. apache2 is the one im going to use. does it matter that it is a PPC for the apache? |
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| 22:02.24 | bananskalet | rant: are u still here? |
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| 22:04.44 | bananskalet | it asks me a tricky question. Its says "Debian desktop enviroment" "gnome..." "Xfce..." "KDE..." "Cinnamon..." "MATE..." "LXDE..." What should i choose? |
| 22:06.00 | annadane | er... for apache you can just click "web server" in the install |
| 22:06.14 | annadane | as far as desktop environment is concerned, it up to you, what do you want in a desktop? |
| 22:06.42 | bananskalet | annadane: just so i can see all my files. |
| 22:06.44 | annadane | https://wiki.debian.org/DesktopEnvironment kind of has a brief description |
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| 22:07.05 | bananskalet | as long its simple |
| 22:07.16 | annadane | well, i use MATE and quite like it, you can install that if you want |
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| 22:07.26 | annadane | simple and lightweight |
| 22:08.05 | bananskalet | okey =) tnx. do i need ssh server? |
| 22:08.25 | annadane | i'm not really following the conversation so i don't know what your needs are |
| 22:08.36 | bananskalet | its a webserver |
| 22:08.49 | annadane | i'll let someone else answer that; i guess probably not |
| 22:08.54 | annadane | you can always add it later if you need |
| 22:09.01 | bananskalet | i can install that later. |
| 22:09.11 | bitess | you want to install a desktop environment on your webserver? |
| 22:09.14 | phogg | bananskalet: You probably want a ssh server on everything except maybe your desktop |
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| 22:09.30 | phogg | otherwise how will you administer it? |
| 22:09.43 | bananskalet | phogg: kvm |
| 22:10.28 | phogg | bananskalet: if it's a local vm then you can skip the sshd, but I find ssh more convenient even so. |
| 22:11.12 | bananskalet | phogg: its an old ppc Movermac G5 |
| 22:11.30 | phogg | bananskalet: so? |
| 22:11.56 | bananskalet | nvm |
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| 22:12.08 | bananskalet | yped in wrong chat =) |
| 22:12.13 | bananskalet | typed* |
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| 23:03.12 | nyk | I've set up a postfix server in my local network to have my D-Link DCS-936L network camera send images to. It works to send mail to the server using telnet, but the same settings (source/target mail address, user/password) do not work in the network camera (Message: Send a test mail failure ). In the postfix logs I see connect from DCS-936L[192.168.1.144], then disconnect from DCS-936L[192.168.1.144] ehlo=1 quit=1 commands=2. Is there a way to |
| 23:03.13 | nyk | see that these 2 command were and to find out why it failed? |
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| 23:09.19 | michael2 | hi, does anyone know how to print uris for an apt package which is already installed? |
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| 23:13.12 | michael2 | nvm, aptitude shows it in package info |
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| 23:50.45 | RoadRunner | is there a "universal" driver or sepparate kernel module that can be installed/activated to make use of additional/non standard buttons on mice? |
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