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| 00:00.37 | HyP3r | So... now? |
| 00:01.04 | jmcnaught | HyP3r: what are you trying to install? Keep in mind that installing a random .deb that isn't from Debian's repositories is the same as giving root access to the package creator |
| 00:01.05 | __m4ch1n3__ | the more you explain the less it make sense to me :D |
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| 00:01.53 | HyP3r | jmcnaught: I know... but that doesn't really help me :/ |
| 00:02.32 | jmcnaught | HyP3r: if you tell us what you're actually trying to install someone might be able to help you |
| 00:02.50 | HyP3r | As I said tree :) |
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| 00:03.53 | HyP3r | Here you can see the errors https://pastebin.com/3fj1Qu38 <-> "apt install ./tree_1.7.0-3_amd64.deb &> error.log" |
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| 00:04.16 | jmcnaught | HyP3r: you cannot install a local .deb file with apt or apt-get. These are for downloading packages (and their dependencies automatically) from remote repositories. apt/apt-get then uses dpkg to install each package in order. If you want to install a .deb file, use "dpkg -i foo.deb". If that fails because of missing dependencies, you can use apt/apt-get to get them |
| 00:05.19 | jmcnaught | apt doesn't understand "./tree_1.7.0-3_amd64.deb" or any other path to any local file because it's not designed to be used that way |
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| 00:06.06 | HyP3r | jmcnaught: well thats not true. On my other server this command exactly works? |
| 00:06.23 | HyP3r | see: https://www.tecmint.com/install-local-deb-packages-in-debian-ubuntu-linux-mint/ https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Paketinstallation_DEB/#apt |
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| 00:06.41 | HyP3r | Or https://askubuntu.com/a/769542 |
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| 00:09.09 | fling | Which app to use for parsing /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone0 ? |
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| 00:09.46 | fling | I found this line in a bash script -> cpuTempC=$(($(cat /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone0/temp)/1000)) && cpuTempF=$((cpuTempC*9/5+32)) |
| 00:09.48 | jmcnaught | HyP3r: that might be true for the same-named apt tool on Ubuntu but read the manpage for apt. It doesn't mention that it has this feature at all. https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/apt/apt.8.en.html |
| 00:10.42 | format_c | fling: acpi isn't an option? |
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| 00:11.05 | fling | format_c: will check⦠|
| 00:11.14 | jmcnaught | also it's silly to download a package from packages.debian.org to install it manually, just install it from apt. If there's something else you're trying to install besides tree, provide more details about it for help |
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| 00:12.12 | format_c | acpi -t gives me the temperature of anything ACPI related. |
| 00:13.11 | fling | format_c: I don't have acpi command. Which package to install? |
| 00:13.29 | fling | Also which one for lm_sensors? |
| 00:13.30 | format_c | acpi |
| 00:13.39 | fling | E: Package 'acpi' has no installation candidate |
| 00:13.42 | fling | hmm |
| 00:13.50 | themill | jmcnaught: apt in stretch does actually understand apt install ./foo.deb |
| 00:13.54 | rant | ,find bin/acpi |
| 00:13.58 | judd | Search for bin/acpi in stretch/amd64: acpi: usr/bin/acpi |
| 00:14.09 | fling | D'oh! -> deb http://raspbian.raspberrypi.org/raspbian/ stretch main contrib non-free rpi |
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| 00:14.39 | rant | ,i lm-sensors |
| 00:14.40 | judd | Package lm-sensors (utils, extra) in stretch/amd64: utilities to read temperature/voltage/fan sensors. Version: 1:3.4.0-4; Size: 109.5k; Installed: 385k; Homepage: http://www.lm-sensors.org; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/lm-sensors |
| 00:14.53 | format_c | , acpi |
| 00:14.55 | rant | fling: raspbian is NOT Debian |
| 00:15.04 | fling | Ok, sorry :p |
| 00:15.18 | jmcnaught | themill: oh. is it an undocumented feature or am I just blind? |
| 00:15.20 | rant | !raspbian |
| 00:15.20 | dpkg | Raspbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian on irc.freenode.net for support. http://www.raspbian.org/ |
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| 00:16.15 | themill | jmcnaught: I don't think it's documented in the man page. (It can also do build-deps from a dsc or from an unpacked source package, also not documented in the man page) |
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| 00:16.46 | jmcnaught | themill: thanks for correcting me :) |
| 00:17.19 | rant | fling: you wouldnt have pci or acpi tools because the arch doesnt have either type of hardware |
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| 00:17.52 | themill | btw the advantage of using apt over dpkg in such cases is that apt will resolve the dependencies in advance and, if they can't be resolved, not install the package |
| 00:18.32 | fling | rant: I still want a command to show temperatures. Should I create a bash script? |
| 00:19.33 | rant | fling: I have no idea, perhaps you should ask #raspbian I have never used a RPI only an OPI and I used armbian which came with a script for it |
| 00:20.01 | jmcnaught | HyP3r: in case you missed it, the feature of apt installing local .deb files like you're trying to do is not available in jessie, but was added in stretch |
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| 00:20.42 | rant | HyP3r: fwiw dpkg -i if you merely want to just install a deb, use gdebi if you need to resolve dependencies |
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| 00:22.37 | HyP3r | jmcnaught: ok. |
| 00:22.53 | HyP3r | rant: thanks I actually use gdebi. And its working pretty good |
| 00:23.06 | HyP3r | But yes... I have to update the system jessie is getting old... |
| 00:23.09 | rant | HyP3r: yes its nice, and works on the command line or as a GUI |
| 00:23.40 | HyP3r | At the moment I get this strange error "Dependency is not satisfiable: python3-cffi-backend-api-max (>= 9729)" |
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| 00:23.58 | rant | HyP3r: I'd imagine Buster will release by July maybe sooner.. I personally upgraded jessie machines I had last June |
| 00:24.08 | M6HZ | Hello |
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| 00:24.26 | rant | ,v python3-cffi-backend-api-max |
| 00:24.27 | judd | No package named 'python3-cffi-backend-api-max' was found in amd64. |
| 00:24.43 | rant | HyP3r: what package are you installing and where did you get it? |
| 00:24.46 | HyP3r | rant: yeah. The most I also updated but two are missing they are now bothering me |
| 00:25.02 | rant | a direct link would be nice if you have one |
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| 00:27.29 | M6HZ | I was trying to read the man page of gcc, but I received "No manual entry for gcc". I found out that apparently the man pages comes along with a different package : gcc-doc -> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/gcc-doc . But I can not install this package, I get : "Package gcc-doc is not available, but is referred to by another package". How can I get the gcc man page ? |
| 00:28.51 | M6HZ | `apt-cache show gcc-doc` reports "N: Can't select versions from package 'gcc-doc' as it is purely virtual" |
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| 00:29.44 | edi_ | jhutchins_wk, you might have been right from the start |
| 00:30.00 | edi_ | about apt waiting for input |
| 00:30.24 | edi_ | so if you were right, thanks for the pointers and sorry for me being sceptic at first :) |
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| 00:34.08 | corner_cubicle | M6HZ: gcc-doc is not in the main repository, you need to add contrib and non-free to your /etc/apt/sources.list |
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| 00:35.40 | M6HZ | corner_cubicle: Why should I need to add non-free packages to read the man of a GNU program ? That doesn't seem appropriate does it ? |
| 00:36.06 | themill | !gcc-doc |
| 00:36.07 | dpkg | The man pages for <gcc> are in non-free, as they are released under the <GFDL> with invariant sections, so they do not meet the <DFSG>. To install, ask me about <non-free sources> and install the gcc-doc package. If you are looking for man pages for printf, strchr etc then install the manpages-dev package. |
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| 00:37.08 | rasusto | gcc has non-free documentation...whaaat |
| 00:37.12 | themill | (basically, GCC upstream is allowed to put sections into those docs that noone else is allowed to edit, and that is contrary to what Debian is about) |
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| 00:38.12 | rasusto | perhaps we can create a package with the invariant sections removed? How significant are the invariant sections? |
| 00:38.28 | M6HZ | themill: how is that possible ? I thought all GNU software released under GPL ? |
| 00:39.33 | rasusto | the documentation license is separate from the software license |
| 00:40.27 | M6HZ | rasusto: yes but since when are GNU software man pages released under non free licences ? |
| 00:40.35 | themill | M6HZ: not by a long way: GPL, LGPL, GFDL, AGPL, different versions of them plus different exceptions. |
| 00:40.41 | rasusto | and no we can't remove the invariant sections that the whole point of them being invariant |
| 00:40.44 | M6HZ | themill: I know that |
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| 00:41.00 | themill | well that's not what you said 2 min ago... |
| 00:41.29 | rasusto | I know I was wrong |
| 00:41.39 | corner_cubicle | M6HZ: You can check this page for more info: https://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml |
| 00:41.46 | M6HZ | corner_cubicle: thanks |
| 00:42.13 | themill | (what dpkg said) |
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| 00:42.32 | corner_cubicle | I really don't understand legal terms, it would have been great if we didn't need to worry about all this, but sadly that's not the case.. |
| 00:43.27 | themill | Free software is an inherently political thing and the only way it works is by working within copyright law, which means you need licenses. |
| 00:43.55 | themill | And then every armchair lawyer thinks they can write a better licence... |
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| 00:45.01 | rasusto | unless you release it into the public domain |
| 00:45.17 | themill | which you cannot do in most jurisdictions |
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| 00:45.53 | themill | (which is why, for instance CC0 exists, but that's just Yet Another Licence) |
| 00:48.26 | de-facto | SSH: broken pipe: why do my new stretch servers close SSH connections on their own? some tweaks for sshd needed to let it idle happily with open sessions? |
| 00:49.00 | M6HZ | corner_cubicle: that's crazy. I didn't think I would live a day during which I would learn that the GNU project is not free enough. Wow. |
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| 00:49.11 | M6HZ | What Stallman says about this issue ? |
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| 00:50.16 | themill | It's his idea. He is completely OK with shoving the GNU Manifesto and other polemic into every documentation and preventing it from being removed. |
| 00:52.17 | M6HZ | themill: I had never heard that before |
| 00:52.31 | M6HZ | themill: Do you have a link to show me some examples ? |
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| 00:52.49 | M6HZ | themill: I'm really curious to see that. How is it possible ? |
| 00:56.09 | themill | M6HZ: there are a few invariant sections within the gcc docs, for example https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/gcc/doc/include/funding.texi |
| 00:56.29 | blackflow | de-facto: yes, look up TCPKeepAlive in ssh_config manpage |
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| 00:59.26 | de-facto | blackflow, so i set in /etc/ssh/sshd_config the three options "TCPKeepAlive yes", "ClientAliveInterval 300" and "ClientAliveCountMax 3" then? |
| 01:00.35 | blackflow | de-facto: ssh_config, or ~/.config |
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| 01:01.27 | blackflow | dez: ClientAlive* is for sshd_config, on the server side yes. TCPKeepAlive is ssh_config on the client side (as well we ServerAliveInterval there) |
| 01:01.39 | blackflow | de-facto: ^^^ (sorry dez, mistab) |
| 01:02.03 | de-facto | blackflow, I want to configure it on the server side |
| 01:03.02 | blackflow | well you can do that too then. just keep in mind the downsides of increasing those intervals, it'll take longer to detect actual connection loss, if that means anything to your use case even |
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| 01:03.28 | M6HZ | themill: wow |
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| 01:05.40 | dez | Okay |
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| 01:58.48 | Deihmos | using an ntfs drive causes high cpu use. damn |
| 01:59.27 | blackflow | Deihmos: FUSE |
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| 02:00.32 | de-facto | blackflow, i think it works thanks :) |
| 02:00.50 | Deihmos | i would like to change the file system but hard to backup all that data. movies and tv shows |
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| 03:43.18 | Jmabsd | err, are KVM/LibVirt host-only network interfaces supposed to be called "vmbrN" or "brN"??? |
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| 03:48.14 | Jmabsd | oh dear, there's "virbrN" too. |
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| 04:13.17 | Jmabsd | the documentation for Debian libvirt+KVM is dangerously unclear on the topic of networking. i only find contradicting, unclear, unauthoritative documents on this topic. |
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| 04:47.47 | karlpinc | Jmabsd: See also: /usr/share/doc/udev/README.Debian.gz |
| 04:49.01 | Jmabsd | karlpinc: i got one line from you, ok will see. |
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| 04:49.34 | karlpinc | Jmabsd: Don't know if it's relevant, but it is related. |
| 04:50.54 | rwp | Jmabsd, Choice of bridge name for KVM use is up to you. You can name it whatever you prefer. I use br0 but others use virbr0. Six of one or a half a dozen of the other. |
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| 05:03.07 | Jmabsd | rwp: but wait, the way you allocate a bridge networking interface, is in /etc/network/interfaces right. |
| 05:03.22 | rwp | Correct. |
| 05:03.24 | Jmabsd | rwp: there, you do "auto NIC\niface NIC inet static ... |
| 05:03.35 | Jmabsd | the prefix you use, will tell the system what driver to use, no? |
| 05:03.50 | Jmabsd | rwp: if you want to call it "firefly", it wouldn't work, because there is no firefly drive r?? |
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| 05:04.11 | Jmabsd | so you somehow instruct through the use of name, what kind of interface you want to allocate |
| 05:04.18 | Jmabsd | or? |
| 05:04.26 | Jmabsd | is there away around it, so your bridge can be called potato0 ? |
| 05:04.30 | rwp | Here is a working example, http://paste.debian.net/plain/1063211 |
| 05:04.33 | Jmabsd | or what's yourp oint |
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| 05:04.53 | Jmabsd | rwp: exactly, here you call it "br0". |
| 05:05.35 | rwp | I could have called it parsnip0 just the same... |
| 05:05.42 | Jmabsd | rwp,karlpic: i have one more kvm-on-debian question: for host-only networking, is using a bridge the primary way, or is there some other high-performant, well-functioning method too, maybe an even better mnethod? |
| 05:05.52 | Jmabsd | rwp: how will the system understand that parsnip0 is a bridge? |
| 05:06.11 | rwp | It contains "bridge_ports eth0" |
| 05:06.23 | Jmabsd | rwp,karlpic: normally i'd wildguess the name i'd want would be "vlan0", "vlan" meaning "a networking interface that connects you to one given guest VM only". |
| 05:06.40 | Jmabsd | rwp: ah so the "bridge_ports none" makes it a bridge. ok. |
| 05:06.43 | rwp | The "vlan" name is usually meant for vlans. |
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| 05:07.13 | friendofafriend | Usually you're bridging VMs for networking. |
| 05:07.43 | Jmabsd | friendofafriend: why? |
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| 05:09.08 | friendofafriend | Because you're providing some service to the network, and you want to make it seem as though your VM is just another host on the LAN. |
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| 05:12.13 | Jmabsd | it sounds like just a "virtual_interface0" which was made for host-to-single-guest would make more sense, however a bridge may function as exactly that, i guess. |
| 05:12.33 | Jmabsd | the name "bridge" for a host-only virtual networking interface does sound a bit peculiar, but ok. |
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| 05:28.54 | friendofafriend | Jmabsd: Nah, you want other hosts on your LAN to communicate to the VM, so you use a bridge. |
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| 05:30.21 | Jmabsd | friendofafriend: that would be the reason to use a bridge, right. |
| 05:33.05 | friendofafriend | Yep, just host-to-VM and you'd have to NAT. |
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| 05:34.35 | de-facto | anyone tried gogs.io instead of gitlab.com? Looking for a small footprint "github"-like git hosting webui... |
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| 06:01.27 | Jmabsd | rwp,karlpinc: err, in /etc/network/interfaces , i get the complaint that "0 # MYCOMMENT" is not a valid number, and such |
| 06:01.41 | Jmabsd | i thought the "iface" commands can be split over more lines, |
| 06:02.04 | rwp | paste.debian.net the verbatim section |
| 06:02.51 | Jmabsd | rwp: http://paste.debian.net/1063213/ , this is what doesn't process at all |
| 06:03.05 | Jmabsd | pasting the error message, sec |
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| 06:03.21 | Jmabsd | rwp: http://paste.debian.net/1063214/ here you go |
| 06:03.49 | Jmabsd | aha, first complaint is that "bridge_ports none" is invalid in that there's no "none" interface, fixing .. |
| 06:04.09 | Jmabsd | rwp: https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/bridge-utils/bridge-utils-interfaces.5.en.html#DESCRIPTION says "none" is a valid value ? |
| 06:04.18 | rwp | In the future please remove both the network and broadcast lines. That isn't your problem now. But they are redundant. |
| 06:04.26 | Jmabsd | https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/bridge-utils/bridge-utils-interfaces.5.en.html too |
| 06:04.52 | Jmabsd | really why are they redundant? |
| 06:05.20 | rwp | Because they are calculated from the netmask. Unless you override them. |
| 06:05.47 | rwp | Also, it is more compact to use the 192.168.1.2/24 syntax but that is at least not redundant. |
| 06:06.23 | Jmabsd | ah ic. |
| 06:06.48 | Jmabsd | ahh so all needed is just address IPHERE/24. |
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| 06:11.37 | Jmabsd | rwp: starting to see that "#" commands are not fully supported in this file, sigh. |
| 06:12.50 | Jmabsd | ..ok that fixed it. |
| 06:12.55 | rwp | I think comments must be on lines by themself. |
| 06:13.23 | rwp | I think if you do not want to use a bridge that you should consider using the libvirt default network or the host networking. |
| 06:18.18 | nevivurn | I'm using rxvt-unicode as my terminal emulator. Is there any way to disable mouse for applications? That is, so I don't need to disable mouse in vim on every host I ssh into? |
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| 06:19.28 | rwp | nevivurn, If you figure that out please let me know too. |
| 06:19.37 | nevivurn | Will do...! |
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| 06:23.49 | flyingbutter | how do i tell which driver bumblebee is using |
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| 06:28.06 | Jmabsd | the /etc/network/interfaces file should be extended with support for partial-line comments. |
| 06:28.38 | flyingbutter | for a gpu? |
| 06:31.18 | Jmabsd | flyingbutter: for its file contents, e.g. "address 1.2.3.4 # I chose this IP for so and so reason" - this is not supported |
| 06:31.25 | Jmabsd | you need instead to dedicate a whole separate line to the comment. |
| 06:33.25 | Jmabsd | rwp,flyingbutter: okay so, i created the bridge interface now. and the next question becomes, what's the best way to plug it in to the KVM. |
| 06:33.32 | flyingbutter | i dont follow |
| 06:33.35 | Jmabsd | this section of the libvirt/QEMU/KVM documentation is Particularly Unclear |
| 06:33.41 | Jmabsd | flyingbutter: i now have a bridge device "kvm_bridge0". |
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| 06:34.05 | Jmabsd | i now like to set up a VM using "virt-install", that should use the bridge. |
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| 06:34.19 | Jmabsd | maybe "--network=bridge:kvm_bridge0,model=virtio". |
| 06:34.43 | friendofafriend | Oh, you're using libvirt/qemu from the CLI? It can be kind of hairy. |
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| 06:36.25 | jmcnaught | virsh isn't so bad |
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| 06:36.36 | Jmabsd | friendofafriend: right, the documentation does not exist, that is a problem. |
| 06:36.44 | Jmabsd | there are multiple unclear, unauthoritative documents |
| 06:36.51 | Jmabsd | only |
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| 06:37.40 | friendofafriend | You've probably already gone by the Debian wiki, then? https://wiki.debian.org/QEMU |
| 06:37.54 | themill | interfaces(5) is not likely to grow an inline comment syntax given that it is documented that it does not have one and any strings with # in them would suddenly get broken. |
| 06:39.16 | flyingbutter | ? |
| 06:39.28 | flyingbutter | im asking about a problem with my optimus laptop |
| 06:39.55 | themill | flyingbutter: yours is not the only discussion going on amongst the 1474 inhabitants of this channel, however. |
| 06:40.08 | friendofafriend | themill: He was pinged. |
| 06:40.22 | themill | with multiple f<tab> that will happen |
| 06:40.33 | friendofafriend | Sure will, IRC for ya. |
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| 06:46.39 | Jmabsd | themill: ok that's a weakness. |
| 06:47.59 | friendofafriend | Hmmm? Tab completion is a weakness, Jmabsd? |
| 06:48.25 | Jmabsd | friendofafriend: it's not. what i meant was, inability to end an explaining comment at a line, is a weakness. |
| 06:48.37 | Jmabsd | so if you want string constants, they should have a delimiter |
| 06:48.59 | friendofafriend | Well, you've got the line before it. Not so bad, and your interfaces file is going to be pretty simple anyway. |
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| 07:15.20 | Deihmos | is there a terminal app that will show cpu usage, disk activity and so so on |
| 07:15.39 | Deihmos | similar to windows performance monitor or task manager |
| 07:16.20 | friendofafriend | Deihmos: You might like htop. |
| 07:16.30 | jelly | or atop |
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| 07:20.29 | Jmabsd | re kvm: For a VirtIO network interface on the guest side, if the host-side configuration had no "mac=NNN.." option set for the interface, will the mac keep changing or what? |
| 07:20.48 | Jmabsd | https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Networking discusses a way to generate a persistent mac, and i wonder if it's necessary. |
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| 07:23.39 | friendofafriend | Jmabsd: Have you tried to make an example with virt-manager? |
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| 07:26.06 | Jmabsd | friendofafriend: i go via CLI. |
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| 07:26.58 | skinhaptik | So I am unable to connect to my debian repos. I'm getting the error "Could not connect to ftp.au.debian.org:80 (150.203.164.37). - connect (111: Connection refused)" |
| 07:27.10 | skinhaptik | How does I fix dis |
| 07:27.14 | friendofafriend | skinhaptik: Tried another repo? |
| 07:27.29 | skinhaptik | friendofafriend: ye I tried the us server and nothing much happened |
| 07:27.41 | skinhaptik | I can try again if you'd like? I think it throws a different error |
| 07:27.54 | rwp | Jmabsd, I can't help but think that #virt might be a good place for your questions. Although it is probably going to be quiet at this time of day. |
| 07:28.01 | friendofafriend | Sure, errors are answers. |
| 07:28.08 | skinhaptik | alright let's give it a shot |
| 07:28.41 | rwp | skinhaptik, Also check if you can reach it in a standard web browser. In case it is something blocking between you and it. |
| 07:28.47 | friendofafriend | Tell ya', that virt-manager sure is handy. And once you get a feel for what kind of configuration files it generates, you don't need it much anymore. |
| 07:29.17 | skinhaptik | rwp: okay I'll try after this |
| 07:29.35 | skinhaptik | Currently it's just updating. But it looks like it's all connecting |
| 07:29.59 | skinhaptik | Yeah so this is what happened last time - maybe I should wait - but it's stuck at "0% [Working]" |
| 07:29.59 | friendofafriend | skinhaptik: Must have scared the devil out of it. |
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| 07:30.14 | skinhaptik | Yeah it looks stuck |
| 07:30.37 | friendofafriend | It can take a while, especially on a slower drive. |
| 07:30.50 | skinhaptik | friendofafriend: I'm on an SSD tho |
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| 07:31.50 | skinhaptik | friendofafriend: I'm on an SSD tho |
| 07:31.54 | skinhaptik | I don't think this is supposed to happen. It's still stuck. Just wait a few minutes or something? |
| 07:32.06 | friendofafriend | skinhaptik: I see some recommendations of an "apt-get clean". |
| 07:32.18 | skinhaptik | okay I can try that I suppose |
| 07:32.48 | skinhaptik | I always thought clean was just to clear downloaded packages tho |
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| 07:33.24 | skinhaptik | yep, back to 0% [Working] |
| 07:33.27 | rwp | friendofafriend, I do use virt-manager but mostly create VMs using virt-install. I have scripted my typical configuration to I don't need to remember all of the options. |
| 07:33.42 | skinhaptik | Perhaps I should just another server |
| 07:35.02 | rwp | skinhaptik, I cannot connect to http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ either. |
| 07:35.08 | friendofafriend | rwp: virt-manager insists on doing some things that can interfere with GPU passthrough when making a new VM, but it's happy to start and stop them anyway. |
| 07:35.15 | friendofafriend | apt-get clean |
| 07:35.21 | skinhaptik | rwp: ah maybe it's just down? |
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| 07:35.24 | skinhaptik | I tried apt-get clean |
| 07:35.27 | friendofafriend | Sheesh, keystuck. Sorry. |
| 07:35.39 | friendofafriend | Guess I need a new middle mousebutton. |
| 07:36.16 | rwp | Maybe... Try a different repo and see what you can get. https://www.debian.org/mirror/list |
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| 07:36.38 | themill | the .au mirror will often make you sad. deb.debian.org is a much better choice |
| 07:36.40 | rwp | I thought that maybe you were getting a little repetitive. :-) |
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| 07:37.30 | rwp | friendofafriend, I am usually using a serial port console for headless server VMs. Graphics? Bah, humbug! |
| 07:37.37 | friendofafriend | rwp: New mouse on the way, the dratted thing is finally headed for the landfill in the sky. |
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| 07:37.42 | skinhaptik | yeah yeah |
| 07:38.13 | rwp | I have two mice that the rubber on the wheel has turned to goo. Really nasty. I had to go shopping myself the other day to replace them. |
| 07:38.19 | skinhaptik | Maybe .au is just down for now or something. So I guess I'll just try another time |
| 07:38.26 | friendofafriend | rwp: I'm doing GPU passthrough just so I don't have to clog up my host with CUDA nonsense. |
| 07:38.59 | rwp | friendofafriend, I need to ask you about that pretty soon then. I have been wanting to set up something with best speed local graphics. |
| 07:39.10 | themill | skinhaptik: deb.debian.org is a much better choice than any of the Australian mirrors. |
| 07:39.39 | themill | they are all pretty flaky and badly maintained. |
| 07:39.49 | skinhaptik | themill, so like "ftp.deb.debian.org/debian/" |
| 07:40.01 | themill | no, deb.debian.org/debian |
| 07:40.10 | friendofafriend | rwp: You'll find a lot of fantastic information in this repo about passthrough. https://github.com/saveriomiroddi/vga-passthrough |
| 07:40.17 | themill | !stretch sources.list |
| 07:40.17 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main" "deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main". Be sure to run «apt update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <stretch/updates> <stretch-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list". |
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| 07:40.45 | skinhaptik | themill okay I'll try that I suppose |
| 07:40.57 | friendofafriend | rwp: The biggest problem I had with getting things working was outdated documentation, silly blog posts, running a kernel a few versions too old. It was a bag of guts. |
| 07:41.14 | rwp | friendofafriend, Yes! That looks perfect. I have saved that URL off. It's after midnight here and getting too late for new stuff to go into my brain tonight. |
| 07:41.51 | themill | skinhaptik: it is normally plenty fast enough although it does prioritise availability over speed. The only time I don't use it is when dist-upgrading desktops and I'd use the mirror across campus for that. |
| 07:42.00 | friendofafriend | Oh gosh, I'd not want to start after midnight. I couldn't get it working for weeks. |
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| 07:46.06 | skinhaptik | themill ye okay it still appears to be stuck yet again |
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| 07:48.28 | rwp | skinhaptik, Can you use your standard web browser to brows http://deb.debian.org/debian/ just normally? It's a CDN meaning intentionally different based upon where you are coming from. |
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| 07:57.23 | wingman2 | does anyone have a good way to generate /etc/network/interfaces on first boot? it's blank on debootstraped systems. |
| 07:58.27 | wingman2 | i have a script that loops over files in /sys/class/net/* |
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| 08:00.47 | rwp | wingman2, I just copy in what I want. I have a script that writes the output I want there. |
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| 08:02.26 | rwp | wingman2, Here is a portion of the script just to give you ideas: http://paste.debian.net/plain/1063218 |
| 08:02.33 | wingman2 | i don't know what i want though |
| 08:03.01 | rwp | Let's start there then. What do you want? |
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| 08:06.08 | wingman2 | What I want and what I currently have |
| 08:06.10 | wingman2 | is for the file to be automatically populated with whatever network devices are available, since I don't know them beforehand |
| 08:06.45 | rwp | You can figure out your network devices with 'ip ' which is short for 'ip addr show'. |
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| 08:07.34 | rwp | The old names would be something like eth0 but the new systemd names would be something like enp3s0 or similar. |
| 08:08.05 | rwp | Then you need to decide if you are assigning a static IP address of if you are using DHCP assigned IP addresses. |
| 08:08.12 | __m4ch1n3__ | and if its wireless then more like wl40sdfu09sdf80usf0sdf90sduf0sd89fs |
| 08:08.29 | wingman2 | http://paste.debian.net/1063219/ |
| 08:08.45 | wingman2 | is what i came up with |
| 08:08.48 | rwp | For wireless one might be wanting to use wicd and a graphical pick tool, or wicd-curses from the console. |
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| 08:09.39 | rwp | So the problem with walking through /sys/class/net/* is that there are more devices there than one wants in a /etc/network/interfaces file. |
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| 08:10.33 | wingman2 | not on first boot |
| 08:11.24 | rwp | I guess it depends. I just peeked at sevaral systems. Some will be just perfect with what you have. But the ones with bridges configured are not. |
| 08:11.31 | sammm | can anyone suggest good python library(ies) for working with apt / deb packages? |
| 08:11.32 | rwp | So if they are simple systems then what you have looks good to me. |
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| 08:12.19 | rwp | wingman2, Looks good! Good job. |
| 08:12.58 | rwp | sammm, Searching I find python-apt which says it is. |
| 08:13.00 | rwp | ,v python-apt |
| 08:13.01 | judd | Package: python-apt on amd64 -- wheezy: 0.8.8.2; jessie: 0.9.3.12; stretch: 1.4.0~beta3; buster: 1.8.1; sid: 1.8.1 |
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| 08:13.49 | wingman2 | this is the first boot after a debootstrap install so no bridges are setup yet |
| 08:14.31 | wingman2 | i just want sshd to work |
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| 08:15.27 | wingman2 | so this is it, there's no better way? |
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| 08:25.43 | rwp | wingman2, That looks pretty good. Normally the debian-installer would set it up. But using debootstrap it is left to you. What you have written looks pretty good to me. |
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| 08:26.35 | wingman2 | okay then. thanks |
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| 09:32.13 | Sveta | Hello :) How do I get an accurate listing of packages by the installed size of them plus their dependencies (i.e. the amount of space that would be freed if I removed them via apt-remove)? I think synaptic shows something like this but only for the package itself and for many of them this figure is not indicated. |
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| 09:38.28 | themill | Sveta: recursing through the dependencies is far too expensive to do |
| 09:39.26 | Sveta | Oh right :) And I am running out of space on /, how do I get enough information about this partition to see whether it is easy to resize? I have 10GB for / and everything else (around 60GB) for /home, the former is running out of space because of perl and lamp and texlive stuff |
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| 09:40.08 | Sveta | I'm interested in the partition filesystem and type to look at the possibility of increasing its size at the end, which would be the beginning of /home |
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| 09:42.27 | themill | !dpigs |
| 09:42.28 | dpkg | dpigs is a utility showing which installed packages occupy the most space. Available in the debian-goodies package. |
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| 09:43.04 | themill | getting rid of texlive documentation and perhaps fonts is an easy way to save space |
| 09:43.27 | themill | (I assume you have 'apt-get clean' and checked you don't have a crazy large thing in /var/log) |
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| 09:46.14 | Sveta | I'm trying to _install_ latex, themill :) |
| 09:47.10 | themill | avoiding the -doc packages etc then |
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| 09:48.21 | Sveta | Ah |
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| 09:49.10 | Sveta | http://paste.debian.net/plain/1063232 <-- that's my /var/log contents |
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| 09:50.09 | jelly | !sort by size |
| 09:50.10 | dpkg | [sort by size] aptitude search ~i -O installsize -F"%p %I", or see <sort by size sarge>, or see <dpigs> |
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| 09:50.50 | Sveta | Thanks for these tips about dpigs and other commands, jelly and themill :) |
| 09:51.51 | jelly | neither of those factoids cover autoinstalled dependencies |
| 09:51.57 | thms_ | Sorry to ask this again but what's the option to tell apt to reinstall all missing files ? I'm using --reinstall but it doesnt install files in some /etc folder |
| 09:52.33 | thms_ | -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-confask,confnew,confmiss" |
| 09:53.09 | jelly | who wrote that --force- syntax parser |
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| 09:58.41 | themill | thms_: they are different options not one option with a comma separate list |
| 09:59.52 | themill | that's also only for dpkg conffiles not for ucf config files |
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| 10:02.24 | thms_ | themill, yeah I assume I only needed confmiss |
| 10:03.02 | themill | removing the file and then using confmiss is the simplest, yes |
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| 10:07.34 | shtrb | does ftpmirror get contrib and nonfree by default ? (thinking of getting my offline mirror setup again , but this time the correct way ) |
| 10:07.57 | shtrb | *ftpsync and not ftpmirror |
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| 10:39.39 | wrksx | I was reading man smartd.conf and it's quite complicated |
| 10:39.54 | wrksx | I'm not really sure how to configure it now :/ |
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| 10:41.35 | wrksx | Some stuff are kinda confusing like "'-f' to |
| 10:41.35 | wrksx | <PROTECTED> |
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| 10:42.21 | wrksx | I guess I need to read man smartd too |
| 10:42.22 | shtrb | what is confusing about pre fail and fail ? |
| 10:43.24 | wrksx | shtrb, it's just that I dunno about these terms, so I don't know ifg prefail comes before or after failure of usage, and if both occur, will they both be reported ? |
| 10:43.59 | wrksx | Maybe it'll be clear once I read more doc. Probably |
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| 10:48.02 | wrksx | In the man smartd.conf, I suppose that ATA specific parts apply to SATA as well ? |
| 10:48.14 | wrksx | is that correct? |
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| 11:25.05 | at0m | jhutchins: re: edi_'s issue with ansible and apt - that was needrestart getting in the way and waiting for user action |
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| 11:32.09 | Sveta | dpigs outputs only about top ten i would like more :) |
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| 11:33.27 | Fox | Sveta: dpigs -n 20 (man dpigs...) |
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| 12:24.24 | CrazyTux | swap file vs swap partition, which is a better approach? |
| 12:24.39 | CrazyTux | does Debian need a swap partition? |
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| 12:25.54 | ircarcs | CrazyTux: depends of usage |
| 12:26.51 | CrazyTux | ircarcs, please elaborate |
| 12:27.39 | jelly | set up swap if you have services or workflow that needs it. For example: on a laptop you plan to hibernate |
| 12:27.44 | ircarcs | you have to elaborate ! serveur / laptop / how much memory / type of applications ? |
| 12:28.01 | jelly | a server that runs applications with memory leaks |
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| 12:28.48 | CrazyTux | I am using a laptop for home and office use. |
| 12:29.05 | CrazyTux | I am not a developer. |
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| 12:33.14 | klys | the guideline is generally make a swap partition of roughly 2x the amount of ram you intend to put in your machine. |
| 12:33.49 | klys | it is much easier to resume=/dev/sda3 than it would be to resume from a swap file. |
| 12:33.55 | CrazyTux | klys, I have 4 GB of ram. |
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| 12:34.28 | blackflow | rule of thumb: it's always good to have some swap as there will always be unused pages in memory. I'd always recommend at least 2GB of swap lying around. |
| 12:34.42 | CrazyTux | ok |
| 12:34.44 | blackflow | klys: that gudeline is from 20 years ago, not today |
| 12:35.34 | rant | you need at least 1x ram for hibernate, but for just swapping unused pages and avoid crashing if you run out of ram, I too say 2GB is a good minimum its what I typically use |
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| 12:36.23 | CrazyTux | I have allocated 8 GBs for swap partition. |
| 12:36.51 | whislock | And how much ram do you have? |
| 12:37.19 | CrazyTux | 4 GBs |
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| 12:51.44 | jelly | CrazyTux: that's too much, man |
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| 12:53.16 | CrazyTux | jelly, ok |
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| 13:03.47 | NetTerminalGene | i upgraded to buster. congratulate me |
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| 13:07.22 | jelly | dpkg, tell NetTerminalGene -about debian-next |
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| 13:07.58 | NetTerminalGene | would they congratulate me? |
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| 14:14.50 | BuildTheRobots | can anyone advise on where to find the changelog for "systemd/stable 232-25+deb9u8 amd64" - it's showing as an update for stretch (proxmox) but the changelog seems to be missing from: http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/s/systemd/ |
| 14:15.20 | greycat | !proxmox |
| 14:15.20 | dpkg | Proxmox Virtual Environment (Proxmox VE) is a GNU/Linux distribution <based on Debian>, providing a virtualization platform with <LXC> and <KVM>. It is not supported in #debian. There's an unofficial ##proxmox channel on Freenode. For official venues, see http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Get_support |
| 14:15.39 | BuildTheRobots | my apologies |
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| 14:16.47 | themill | BuildTheRobots: https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/s/systemd/changelog-232-25deb9u8 |
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| 14:17.34 | BuildTheRobots | thanks themill :) |
| 14:17.59 | themill | may or may not be relevant, of course. The package itself has a changelog and apt-listchanges is a thing |
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| 14:18.38 | wrksx | so smartd is 'polling' the disks every half an hour (default) and can run tests on scheduled times. |
| 14:19.08 | wrksx | Can 'polling' report errors? |
| 14:19.54 | BuildTheRobots | themill: i used "apt changelog" which worked for other packages but was missing the file for systemd - that's how i found my url above (it was the one failing but there's other changelogs in that folder) |
| 14:20.12 | petn-randall | wrksx: smartd will report errors when it finds any, yes. Was that your question? |
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| 14:21.51 | wrksx | petn-randall, yeah, i got trouble understanding how it proceed. It's not very clear. |
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| 14:22.12 | wrksx | specially 'polling', i have no idea what it is and what it does |
| 14:22.25 | greycat | Polling means you simply try periodically. |
| 14:22.42 | greycat | Every 10 minutes, you run a thing. Or every hour. Or every 7 days. That is what polling is. |
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| 14:25.19 | BuildTheRobots | wrksx: you can poll current smart data from a drive (eg current state and counters) - `smartctl -x /dev/sdx | less`. The actual tests take the drive briefly offline and exercise it so they're a little different |
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| 14:26.01 | wrksx | so if I write "/dev/sda -a -o on -S on -s (S/../.././02|L/../../6/03)" in smartd.conf, this doesn't impact smartd polling behavior |
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| 14:27.42 | petn-randall | wrksx: "Note that the SMART automatic offline test command is listed as "Obsolete" in every version of the ATA and ATA/ATAPI Specifications." |
| 14:27.56 | petn-randall | regarding -o on |
| 14:28.15 | wrksx | okay I didn't see that, but that an example from the conf file |
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| 14:29.34 | wrksx | also are sata drives managed like ATA drives? |
| 14:29.47 | petn-randall | wrksx: Actually, now that I look at the comment in /etc/smartd.conf, I think it's wrong. I'll file a bug report. |
| 14:30.02 | wrksx | petn-randall, you mean the example is wrong? |
| 14:30.02 | petn-randall | wrksx: S-ATA is also ATA, yes. |
| 14:30.10 | petn-randall | Yes, the example seems wrong. |
| 14:30.11 | wrksx | petn-randall, thx for confirming |
| 14:30.29 | wrksx | petn-randall, are you talkin about the -o or the scheduling aprt ? |
| 14:30.49 | petn-randall | -o on |
| 14:31.01 | petn-randall | That doesn't match the comment above it. |
| 14:31.48 | wrksx | hum, I don't have this comment in my version |
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| 14:32.59 | wrksx | So I think I'm slowly getting it... |
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| 14:34.20 | wrksx | The SMART disk is collecting data on the go while the disk is running, and polling simply read these data periodically to find if any threshold has been reached, is that correct ? |
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| 14:39.27 | wrksx | regarding the SMART auto offline tests indeed it's in the man page, saying it's listed as obsolete |
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| 14:40.39 | petn-randall | wrksx: Yes, that's how smartd works. |
| 14:42.02 | wrksx | petn-randall, okay, it took some time to figuring this out. So short tests and long tests are another feature added on top of that to help ensure the disk is behaving correctly |
| 14:42.09 | blackflow | just keep in mind absence of SMART errors does not mean absence of problems. it tends to err on the false negative side. |
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| 14:42.37 | petn-randall | wrksx: There are "online" attributes that always show current data, and then there are some values that can only be evaluated by doing a full disk scan (think defect sectors on a spinning platter HDD). |
| 14:43.02 | petn-randall | wrksx: Also what blackflow said. 1/3 of all HDDs fail without any prior SMART error. |
| 14:43.09 | wrksx | petn-randall, so a long test is a full disk scan? |
| 14:43.19 | petn-randall | yes |
| 14:43.30 | wrksx | okay, I'm getting there |
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| 14:44.56 | wrksx | if my hdd fails without warnings that's okay, shit happens. But that would be stupid not to leverage smartd capabilities, right |
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| 14:46.08 | petn-randall | Indeed, yes. |
| 14:46.18 | karlpinc | wrksx: It all depends on how much energy you want to put into setup. Here's one of mine: /dev/sda -d sat -a -n standby,10 -o on -S on -s (O/../.././((00)|(06)|(12)|(18)))|(S/../.././00)|(L/../../7/((23)|(00))) -m root -W 2,40,45 |
| 14:46.33 | wrksx | omg |
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| 14:47.25 | karlpinc | wrksx: The drives tend to recommend more testing than I have, but once I got it setup.... |
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| 14:47.51 | karlpinc | wrksx: All that -s stuff is basically what times to run what tests. |
| 14:48.19 | wrksx | yeah that's the part I'll figure out at the end, I think that'll be okay |
| 14:48.32 | wrksx | -S seems like what averyone wants basically |
| 14:49.11 | wrksx | but it's rarely used in the examples |
| 14:49.28 | wrksx | karlpinc, what do you mean, more testing |
| 14:49.47 | wrksx | isn't -a supposed to be like ALL the tests ? |
| 14:50.06 | karlpinc | wrksx: It could also be stupid not to setup raid, and lvm, and lvm caching (see: man 7 lvmcache) to make things more failure proof/faster. YMMV. |
| 14:50.56 | karlpinc | wrksx: If you run smartmontools on the drive it will tell you to test every hour or every 20 minutes or some such. For some sort of "test". The smart vocabularly is strange and some tests are not really tests but reports. |
| 14:50.58 | wrksx | Yeah I've got software raid1 setup, it's a good thing. |
| 14:51.35 | blackflow | I really wouldn't bother because you can't tell if there really are any problems. Instead, focus on monitoring for any fallout. dmesg/kernel logs about failed ATA commands or similar. filesystem issues. ideally use a data checksummed fs like btrfs or zfs, but in absence of it, having redundancy for/with mdadm can help, and you can monitor that for problems coming from read/write failures. |
| 14:52.30 | wrksx | blackflow, you mean wouldn't bother, setting up smartd ? |
| 14:52.45 | blackflow | for example, I have a disk with dozens of bad sectors that I'm still pushing forward, but it's in a mirror, and with a data checksummed fs, so it can catch fire for all I care, when it does, I'll probably stop procrastinating the replacement :) |
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| 14:53.17 | blackflow | wrksx: no, it's okay to get a notification from it for those cases where it DOES notice an issue. but I wouldn't bother with too much monitoring and testing through/of SMART attribs. |
| 14:53.41 | wrksx | okay fair enough |
| 14:53.47 | karlpinc | blackflow: The smart temperature monitoring is nice. To tell you when something's gone sideways. |
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| 14:54.19 | wrksx | I never had any disk fail on a raid setup, what does it look like? |
| 14:54.23 | blackflow | yeah, and raw values like pending/realloc sectors, when they start going up, it's a nice indication that stuff's has started happening |
| 14:54.50 | blackflow | wrksx: you get a nice email from mdadm about it kicking the disk out of the array after too many failures. |
| 14:54.58 | blackflow | (assuming you've set up email notifications) |
| 14:55.12 | blackflow | or just monitor logs, it logs that as well |
| 14:55.19 | wrksx | nice |
| 14:56.35 | blackflow | it'll also log problems before it kicks out the drive, like inability to read or write a sector. I can't remember if it mails those too. |
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| 15:00.22 | wrksx | So a simple "/dev/sda -a -S on -s (S/../.././02|L/../../6/03)" seems like a sensible setting. Maybe increase the short tests frequency, apart from that... |
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| 15:25.14 | wrksx | re, power outtage got me |
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| 15:26.14 | wrksx | di I miss something |
| 15:26.16 | wrksx | =) |
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| 15:32.05 | wrksx | so smartctl -c says: Short self-test routine recommended polling time: 2 minutes |
| 15:32.18 | wrksx | and Extended self-test routine recommended polling time: 479 minutes |
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| 15:33.10 | FinalX | heh, I had an SSD that was happily storing information and reporting back to the OS that it did. meanwhile SMART was showing clean numbers and no errors whatsoever, happily purring along. Yet, the same data read back proved that the data that was actually on the disk was not the data that had been sent to it. |
| 15:33.22 | FinalX | Checksumming filesystems++ |
| 15:33.52 | FinalX | (in reply to earlier :P) |
| 15:34.11 | wrksx | the only option I heard about is --interval, that can be configured in /etc/default/smartmontools |
| 15:34.15 | blackflow | *data checksumming (as many already checksum META data) |
| 15:34.27 | FinalX | blackflow: true :) |
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| 15:37.36 | wrksx | what is a "recommended polling time"? And is the "extended self test routine" what is refered to as the LONG test? |
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| 15:39.30 | jelly | about 3:50 ? |
| 15:39.48 | jelly | (the latter: yes) |
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| 15:40.40 | wrksx | thx jelly. So how would one set a different polling time for short and long tests? |
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| 15:40.53 | wrksx | I mean I don't get it, really |
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| 15:41.12 | jelly | you don't have to |
| 15:41.34 | jelly | that just shows the value the device reported. |
| 15:41.53 | wrksx | you mean that smartd is automatically adjusting to those ? |
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| 15:41.54 | jelly | "if you do a short check, it's not worth looking at the results more often than every 2 minutes" |
| 15:42.01 | jelly | no |
| 15:42.04 | wrksx | uuuuuuuh |
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| 15:42.29 | jelly | at least, I don't think it does |
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| 15:42.38 | sn00ker | hi all |
| 15:42.43 | jelly | it's useful if you do it manually |
| 15:42.45 | sn00ker | What are the options for tapping a system? So there are so many known to me but I have the feeling to have forgotten something. I'm not talking about software I'm talking about an intrusion on the hardware. how can a system be compromised on the hardware? |
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| 15:42.53 | wrksx | jelly, got it thanks! |
| 15:43.19 | jelly | sn00ker: how is that a Debian question? |
| 15:43.29 | jelly | perhaps you wanted ##security |
| 15:43.33 | jelly | or ##hardware |
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| 15:44.36 | sn00ker | So, for example, what I mean. if a system is encrypted. debian with dm-crypt. boat too. then I can still read the password in the memory. What are the possibilities? how can that be prevented? can debian be used between the hard disk instead of the ram? |
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| 15:45.14 | sn00ker | ok i go security ^^ |
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| 15:48.54 | frikinz | Hi. I'm running sid and for the first time need to keep a package from stable: redmine. I could use hold but that's prob better to use pinning to follow stable for that package. Which P should I put? >1000 ? |
| 15:49.01 | __m4ch1n3__ | would guess you need the key on every disk read/write if its encrypted |
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| 15:50.22 | whislock | frikinz: That is ill-advised, to say the least. |
| 15:51.11 | joepublic | frikinz the simplest way to implement this would probably be apt install packagename/stable |
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| 15:51.30 | joepublic | having both stable and sid sources in your frankendebian's sources.list |
| 15:52.00 | whislock | !frankendebian |
| 15:52.00 | dpkg | When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall> |
| 15:52.09 | whislock | frikinz: ^ |
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| 15:54.48 | n4dir | no idea why pinning should be better than setting it on hold. |
| 15:55.04 | wrksx | now reading man smartctl, I'm having a headache |
| 15:55.13 | greycat | Pinning is fancier, more complicated, and more broken, so of course everyone tries to use it. |
| 15:55.31 | n4dir | so for the same reason i never ever fooled with it. |
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| 15:58.42 | wrksx | From the man " SMART provides three basic categories of testing. The first category, called "online" testing, has no |
| 15:58.42 | wrksx | <PROTECTED> |
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| 15:59.09 | wrksx | shouldn't that be an uppercase S like `-S on` ? |
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| 16:10.51 | HeXiLeD | libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.27' not found |
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| 16:11.12 | HeXiLeD | while trying to run wire-desktop |
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| 16:11.20 | greycat | You are attempting to run a program that is not from, nor built FOR, Debian stable, on Debian stable (or older). |
| 16:11.43 | greycat | You need a version that's built for Debian stable, or you need to run something new enough to support the version you are trying to run. |
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| 16:13.23 | jelly | HeXiLeD: ...or run it inside a container that contains (parts of) the OS designed for that build |
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| 16:13.54 | Ooze | I've configured my fstab to create internal mountpoints originating from a mapped natwork drive. They internal mounts never seem to be available after boot, and I have to force a mount. Is there some way I should create some delay after the initial network mount? https://paste.incorrigible.me/mejovaqadu.hs |
| 16:14.31 | jelly | HeXiLeD: is there a snap for that wire-desktop thing maybe? You could try installing and running it that way. |
| 16:14.46 | jelly | ,v wire-desktop |
| 16:14.47 | judd | No package named 'wire-desktop' was found in amd64. |
| 16:15.53 | ksk | Ooze: maybe mount them via systemd, and set the target (or whats it called again?) to activate after networking |
| 16:16.27 | ksk | afaik there is no option to do that in fstab |
| 16:16.44 | jelly | Ooze: well, noauto means it won't be mounted by default |
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| 16:17.02 | wrksx | hum, if smart reports "Extended self-test routine recommended polling time: 479 minutes" does that mean that performing a Long test using -s (L/../../6/00) can take around 479 minutes? 8 hours? |
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| 16:17.19 | wrksx | (4TB disk) |
| 16:17.27 | jelly | wrksx: yes. |
| 16:17.39 | HeXiLeD | judd: https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop/wiki/How-to-install-Wire-for-Desktop-on-Linux#installation-on-debian-based-distributions |
| 16:17.59 | Ooze | jelly: /media/ivanka mounts fine. It's the ../uBackups/[Current]/ that doesn't automount |
| 16:18.13 | wrksx | jelly, I might try to avoid that I guess |
| 16:18.21 | jelly | HeXiLeD: that "debian based distributions" is a bald faced lie, there |
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| 16:19.23 | jelly | Ooze: oh, bind mounts fail? |
| 16:19.41 | jelly | I have no idea whether you need to escape [ or ] inside fstab or how to do it |
| 16:19.53 | Ooze | Yes |
| 16:20.05 | greycat | I'm guessing only whitespace is special, but haven't tried. |
| 16:20.46 | jelly | systemd breaks assumptions about fstab by mounting everything in parallel instead of sequentially |
| 16:21.32 | jelly | at that point it's safer and easier to just write a .mount unit and declare dependencies in there instead of using fstab |
| 16:22.10 | blackflow | aren't tehre x-systemd-herpderp options for fstab for that purpose? |
| 16:22.45 | jelly | it's still easier to make a proper mount unit than to learn what crap precisely to put in fstab |
| 16:22.52 | blackflow | (though I agree with jelly, proper .mount units are better) |
| 16:23.08 | blackflow | sd turns fstab into thos anyway, so just use the source luke |
| 16:23.12 | jelly | I didn't say they were better :-) |
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| 16:23.48 | blackflow | a'giht. corrected: I agree with jelly, and I also think proper .mount units are better) |
| 16:23.59 | blackflow | *a'ight |
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| 16:24.01 | jelly | I take great care to avoid mentioning my personal opinion about systemd's and its half assed attempts at backward compat |
| 16:24.05 | jelly | oh snap |
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| 16:24.55 | blackflow | true, but in context of this, SD already turns fstab into .mount units, which means .mount units are the native way to deal with mount points under sd, and thus "better" in that context. |
| 16:25.16 | jelly | nod |
| 16:26.48 | jelly | Ooze: systemd-fstab-generator(8) may or may not document x-systemd-foo fstab stuff. I'll let you RTFM yourself. |
| 16:27.30 | jelly | ah. > See systemd.mount(5) and systemd.swap(5) for more information about special /etc/fstab mount options this generator understands. |
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| 16:28.13 | jelly | see. To learn how to efficiently use backward compat and avoid using the new stuff, you need to read the docs for the new stuff. |
| 16:28.40 | jelly | !eyeroll |
| 16:29.38 | joepublic | they are more like surgical strikes, support for very specific backwards-compatible scenarios (rather than backwards-compatible support in general, because who needs that) |
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| 16:31.42 | wrksx | "If Long Self-Tests of a large disks take longer than the system uptime, a full disk test can be perâ |
| 16:31.43 | wrksx | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:31.54 | wrksx | damn |
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| 16:33.37 | wrksx | Even after reading the manual for smartctl, smartd and smartd.conf I stillf don't understand if long self test performed via -s L/../.././00 will impact performance or not |
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| 16:34.38 | wrksx | It's driving me crazy |
| 16:34.48 | petn-randall | wrksx: long - [ATA] runs SMART Extended Self Test (tens of minutes to several hours). This is a longer and more thorough version of the Short Self Test described above. Note that this command can be given during normal system operation (unless run in captive mode - see the '-C' option below). |
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| 16:35.44 | petn-randall | wrksx: Only the captive mode would block any I/O on the disk. It will perform I/O for the selftest as long as there aren't any other I/O operations pending from the OS. |
| 16:35.50 | wrksx | petn-randall, so "normal system operation" makes me think about "no much performance impact", is that what u understand ? |
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| 16:36.03 | petn-randall | light to not noticable, yes. |
| 16:36.17 | wrksx | ha, it'll wait for the device to be available, neat |
| 16:36.25 | petn-randall | However I'd still only run them at night when I/O is low, as they otherwise will take very long. |
| 16:36.28 | SerajewelKS | definitely not worse than a dmraid check/repair, for example |
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| 16:36.43 | nuxil | Hello. |
| 16:36.53 | wrksx | petn-randall, thank you so much |
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| 16:38.04 | petn-randall | wrksx: You're welcome :) |
| 16:38.43 | nuxil | im trying to figure out how to make a backup task run once every hour. from my understanding i want to use crondtab or something. |
| 16:39.03 | SerajewelKS | nuxil: cron would be the tool for the job, yes |
| 16:39.06 | nuxil | and i need to place the script i want to run in /etc/cron.hourly |
| 16:39.13 | nuxil | is that correct ? |
| 16:39.30 | petn-randall | nuxil: That would be one option, yes. |
| 16:39.38 | nuxil | what kind of script ? |
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| 16:39.51 | petn-randall | nuxil: Whatever script you want. |
| 16:39.53 | SerajewelKS | whatever script you want to run |
| 16:40.03 | nuxil | it will run python scipts? |
| 16:40.18 | SerajewelKS | it will run any executable |
| 16:40.23 | petn-randall | sure, anything that's executable. |
| 16:40.30 | nuxil | alright.. thanks. |
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| 16:41.13 | nuxil | so my py file needs to be tossed in to this corn.hourly dir.. and do a chmod +x on. |
| 16:41.16 | wrksx | petn-randall, terminology makes it a nightmare for newcomers... |
| 16:41.33 | nuxil | nothing more? do i need to have 1st line in file #!/usr/bin/python or somthing aswell? |
| 16:42.00 | SerajewelKS | nuxil: if you can run it from the shell, then it will work in cron.hourly |
| 16:42.14 | SerajewelKS | nuxil: so yes, you need to set it up to be run by e.g. ./your-script |
| 16:42.18 | petn-randall | nuxil: Yes, you'll also need a shebang. |
| 16:42.20 | SerajewelKS | then move/copy/link it into cron.hourly |
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| 16:42.32 | nuxil | alright :D |
| 16:42.46 | FinalX | or use a systemd timer |
| 16:43.02 | greycat | throws a clock in FinalX's direction |
| 16:43.29 | petn-randall | Or use rundeck! |
| 16:43.37 | joepublic | I heard that cron of late is an elaborate deception handled behind the scenes by something else. |
| 16:43.56 | SerajewelKS | write a node script using the node-cron npm package and run it as a daemon with supervisord! |
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| 16:44.41 | SerajewelKS | joepublic: not on debian stable yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if systemd hoovers that up too |
| 16:44.43 | FinalX | I wasn't kidding, cron is in the past here; systemd timed service executions are much more controllable |
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| 16:44.55 | joepublic | I didn't think you were, of course. |
| 16:45.10 | FinalX | supervised execution, clear logging... namespace / security / capability settings |
| 16:45.24 | petn-randall | cron also doesn't parse the last entry in a crontab if it doesn't contain a newline. |
| 16:45.37 | petn-randall | waits for greycat's rant. |
| 16:45.41 | FinalX | actually it fails the entire crontab if only one line is incorrect |
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| 16:45.56 | FinalX | so NO tasks will run if you fail on ONE line |
| 16:46.05 | SerajewelKS | FinalX: cron can already do more or less all of that with properly configured lines |
| 16:46.11 | FinalX | no, it can't |
| 16:46.29 | SerajewelKS | with wrappers, yes it can |
| 16:46.35 | FinalX | that's not cron... |
| 16:46.39 | FinalX | that's a wrapper |
| 16:46.41 | joepublic | if you're doing all the properly configuring, then you're doing it, and cron isn't. |
| 16:46.42 | SerajewelKS | exactly |
| 16:46.45 | FinalX | exactly |
| 16:46.47 | FinalX | so no, cron can't. |
| 16:46.53 | SerajewelKS | why should the service running things on a schedule need to do all of that? |
| 16:46.59 | SerajewelKS | separation of concerns, dude |
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| 16:47.25 | greycat | petn-randall: "then don't bend it that way" |
| 16:47.28 | SerajewelKS | it's already possible to do all of that stuff, it's just not magically handled by cron, so that makes it bad, apparently? |
| 16:47.33 | FinalX | really not, actually. why should you introduce new software, while you already have everything you need, and maintain more random crap? |
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| 16:47.44 | FinalX | it's not cron that does it, cron can't do it, was the point. |
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| 16:47.50 | SerajewelKS | FinalX: that statement can be read both in favor of and against systemd |
| 16:47.51 | nuxil | did i start some kind of war now ? which is the best scheduler :p |
| 16:47.53 | FinalX | you're extending cron with different software. |
| 16:47.55 | SerajewelKS | to me, systemd is "more random crap" |
| 16:48.00 | FinalX | systemd is part of debian |
| 16:48.03 | FinalX | so it's not random crap |
| 16:48.13 | FinalX | your wrapper is a newly introduced part of a complex chain |
| 16:48.14 | FinalX | also, |
| 16:48.16 | joepublic | nuxil, depends on whether you need simple (cron) or not simple (systemd) |
| 16:48.22 | FinalX | with systemd timed services you KNOW when your service is running |
| 16:48.33 | FinalX | if a cron line fails to parse, it will NOT be executed and your WRAPPER will NOT run |
| 16:48.35 | nuxil | joepublic, my requirements are simple :) |
| 16:48.50 | SerajewelKS | if a systemd unit has a syntax error it won't load either |
| 16:48.55 | FinalX | with cron you can only tell when a service has run |
| 16:49.00 | SerajewelKS | "when you fuck up your configuration bad shit happens" is not an argument |
| 16:49.13 | FinalX | no, with systemd you immediately know your service hasn't run and since when |
| 16:49.15 | FinalX | with cron you do not |
| 16:49.16 | joepublic | Someday I will have to figure out how to undo all these /ignores |
| 16:49.50 | FinalX | you state that cron can do $something while it clearly, and admitted by you, can't. I just can't see how you think that's not a stupid argument. |
| 16:50.08 | SerajewelKS | my point was that it's possible to do with cron |
| 16:50.17 | FinalX | cron can't execute at intervals either, so your wrapper won't either |
| 16:50.28 | FinalX | you can't execute every 10 seconds. |
| 16:50.37 | FinalX | or every 30.. |
| 16:51.02 | FinalX | and if your wrapper does that, you're re-implementing something that should've been done by the task scheduler in the first place |
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| 16:51.21 | joepublic | oh. in hexchat window -> ignore list. duh. |
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| 16:54.26 | jelly | I agree vixie cron is hostile, unwieldy crap and SOMETIMES replacing existing components with completely new code is a good idea. |
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| 16:55.17 | jelly | however completely new code will have its own set of glitches, issues and idiosyncrazies and will take 5-10 years to become stable enough for me |
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| 16:56.51 | jelly | old people prefer the devil they know |
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| 16:58.02 | SerajewelKS | i've just seen it happen too many times. we need to reinvent this, the way it does things is dumb! (5 years pass) oh there was a reason they did it that way, i see... |
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| 16:58.35 | nuxil | reinventing the wheel is something the community in linux is good at. |
| 16:58.44 | nuxil | i mean really good at it. |
| 16:59.18 | SerajewelKS | then we wind up with ten init systems that all suck in their own way. the people with sysvinit still pretty much have had working systems the whole time. |
| 16:59.19 | FinalX | I've been maintaining servers for almost 25 years now, and SysV has been a big part of that. When systemd came I bitched, moaned, whined and complained just like any other system engineer at work, in here, the mailinglists and other places. But a) Cron has always been very limited by itself and has many drawbacks, and b) I've learned to adapt and go with the flow. |
| 16:59.49 | FinalX | I use cron and systemd timers and other software all for different things. Each has their own value and merit. |
| 16:59.50 | nuxil | example.. how many DE's are there out there.? why cant these people compine their effort and make a super DE.. like all the Kernel people are focused on one task. make better kernel. not fork 10 tousands versions of it. :p |
| 17:00.09 | FinalX | But in any case, cron, with or without wrapper, has many drawbacks. |
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| 17:00.29 | whislock | SerajewelKS: systemd is a colossal improvement over sysvinit. Period. |
| 17:00.34 | whislock | !systemd |
| 17:00.35 | dpkg | systemd is a system and service manager for Linux, compatible with SysV and LSB init scripts. It is a replacement for <sysvinit>. systemd shipped as a technology preview in Debian 7 "Wheezy" and is the default init system in Debian 8 "Jessie". https://wiki.debian.org/systemd #debian-systemd on irc.oftc.net http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd #systemd on irc.freenode.net. See also <why systemd>. |
| 17:00.38 | jhutchins_wk | nuxil: Because diversity is part of the point of open source. |
| 17:00.40 | whislock | !whysystemd |
| 17:00.47 | whislock | !why systemd |
| 17:00.47 | dpkg | a tired argument. Start by reading rra's excellent analysis at https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html Support for other init systems (sysvinit) is still present in Debian 8-9. systemd-shim allows userspace requiring some systemd APIs to work without it. See <jessie sysvinit> if you have to delay or wish to avoid using it. |
| 17:00.48 | blackflow | I wouldn't say the linux community is better about reinvention of the wheel than any other community. |
| 17:00.49 | whislock | That one. |
| 17:00.51 | nuxil | whislock i dissagree :p |
| 17:00.57 | nuxil | they removed rc.local :p |
| 17:00.58 | jelly | whislock: sure. but it's not good enough and it's not written defensively |
| 17:01.10 | jhutchins_wk | nuxil: You can still create it. |
| 17:01.15 | jelly | nuxil: rc.local works for me. |
| 17:01.17 | nuxil | i have :D |
| 17:01.21 | SerajewelKS | whislock: i agree with the concept. the implentation has been pretty spectacularly mediocre. |
| 17:01.22 | whislock | jelly: I won't argue that. |
| 17:01.24 | FinalX | If you want more precise execution, cron can't help you. Other schedulers can. And systemd is a part of Debian, which has many security options, so why not use that instead of re-inventing the wheel (I've done that many times, and trust me, you grow very tired and weary of it). |
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| 17:01.43 | whislock | SerajewelKS: And yet that mediocrity has already delivered huge benefits over what came before. |
| 17:02.15 | jelly | FinalX: right. And if someone reimplements it, we'll again have alternatives to pick from. |
| 17:02.16 | FinalX | This shouldn't be a discussion about "systemd or not", it's "cron vs alternatives", or in this case "a built-in alternative". |
| 17:02.16 | whislock | Waaaaah change waaaaaah. |
| 17:02.31 | SerajewelKS | yep, same as pulseaudio made desktop audio better by hilariously making basic shit not work, but hey, at least you can move audio streams between sinks in realtime! |
| 17:02.57 | jelly | SerajewelKS: well it's a-ok now, now that 10 years have passed. |
| 17:03.07 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: its not like hotplug worked well before pulseaudio. |
| 17:03.08 | SerajewelKS | jelly: i still fight it on a regular basis |
| 17:03.16 | nuxil | pulseaudio has been a nightmare for me |
| 17:03.28 | SerajewelKS | i didn't need hotplug, i needed my one hardware sound card to consistently work |
| 17:03.29 | FinalX | jelly: Exactly :) For now, we're moving away from cron and more to systemd services/timers, because that's something we'll always have installed on Debian-boxes now anyway. And Ubuntu that we also run.. |
| 17:03.57 | SerajewelKS | jelly: the only thing that 100% works to fix pulse on my system is have jackd run on alsa, then have pulse exclusively have jack sinks. |
| 17:04.11 | FinalX | With the systemd timers you have more fine-grained control. Also no overlapping runs so you don't need to really worry about locking that much, only start an interval after the last one ran, etc. Random intervals between X and Y.. etc. |
| 17:04.16 | oiaohm | Before pulseaudio I use to run into the artsd vs esound what was a main pain as well. |
| 17:04.28 | FinalX | With cron, you really can only execute on a per-minute basis and only on set times without the help of other tools.. |
| 17:04.46 | oiaohm | One of the things that came out of pulseaudio was mix and match gnome and kde applications and not have a sound server cat fight. |
| 17:04.54 | nuxil | precition of 1 min is good enuf in most cases |
| 17:05.00 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: i mean we kind of got that with alsa dmix |
| 17:05.02 | FinalX | But not all. |
| 17:05.19 | __m4ch1n3__ | took me weeks to realize flat volumes is an feature and cn be commented out in config and not a nasty bug in pulseaudio |
| 17:05.27 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: there were gnome and kde applications taht would not run without either artd or esound. |
| 17:05.27 | FinalX | And you can never be 100% certain of when your task is going to finish, either. |
| 17:05.33 | FinalX | So the next task can overlap. |
| 17:05.44 | jelly | __m4ch1n3__: that's one of "default" settings that really ought to be fixed in distro |
| 17:05.44 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: so dmix did not solve problem. |
| 17:05.44 | FinalX | Unless you add more code yourself. |
| 17:05.45 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: yes i know, but with alsa dmix you could run both sound servers at once without much trouble |
| 17:05.50 | whislock | FinalX: And then you get to kludge up your own locking solution... |
| 17:05.53 | SerajewelKS | (at least that is what i recall) |
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| 17:06.17 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: no artds and esound different versions would go direct to alsa so by passing dmix and locking the hardware. |
| 17:06.38 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: i'm pretty sure that i got them to use the dmix slave at one point |
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| 17:06.52 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: when it worked. |
| 17:07.04 | FinalX | We get audited, it's nice to not have to dig through syslog to see and pray if a task got executed by cron, or that your logs rotated away in which it said that you had a typo on line 667 which makes the other 666 jobs also not run. |
| 17:07.13 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: depending on the version of esound/artd depend if that setting dmix worked or not. |
| 17:07.14 | pclover | So need an opinion here. Any suggestions on how to convert a mbr booting install to a uefi one? |
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| 17:07.20 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: yep. still, alsa dmix was the solution in most cases. pulse was a huge step back at first and it still doesn't work right on any system i've used. |
| 17:07.30 | pclover | unsure if it covers it in a wiki how to setup the efi partition etc |
| 17:07.46 | SerajewelKS | pclover: you need to repartition to add an EFI system partition, for one |
| 17:07.59 | pclover | yeah i know i'll have to do that |
| 17:08.01 | jelly | pclover: "not easily", how much free space do you have on the boot disk? |
| 17:08.20 | petn-randall | pclover: It's easier to do a clean reinstall. |
| 17:08.23 | SerajewelKS | pclover: if you're using GPT right now and have a BIOS boot partition, and don't want to retain BIOS boot capability, you can reuse that partition for the ESP if it's large enough. |
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| 17:09.15 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: really the two good thing to come out of pulseaudio was artds and esound disappearing and more testing and repairs on alsa drivers.. |
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| 17:09.20 | jelly | pclover: on the other hand, it might be really easy if you have a second disk or small internal SD or USB to boot from |
| 17:09.21 | pclover | hum |
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| 17:09.36 | bolt | Is there a stretch installer CD with a newer kernel on it? Like, stretch-n-half? The stretch installer doesn't find the network card on the new NUC in the office, a NUC8i5BEK2. The buster installer does. |
| 17:09.48 | pclover | jelly, i can move the install to a blank disk and fully set it up on that and |
| 17:09.58 | pclover | just like rsync the system files over or something |
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| 17:10.11 | bolt | It's supposed to use the e1000e driver, which is in stretch, but I guess it isn't recent enough. |
| 17:10.14 | jelly | sure, that's the "not easily" workflow |
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| 17:10.29 | SerajewelKS | pclover: do you have a swap partition? |
| 17:10.39 | SerajewelKS | pclover: you can steal a bit of space from that to make the ESP :) |
| 17:11.07 | pclover | reading into wiki to see what i can find |
| 17:11.40 | greycat | There has only ever been one "and-a-half" release, which was etch-and-a-half. |
| 17:11.43 | jelly | pclover: refornat new disk with gpt, a partition for ESP, clone other filesystems, chroot, install grub-efi and efibootmgr, switch firmware over to uefi? |
| 17:11.44 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: there is a plan in the works for pipewire to replace pulseaudio and jackaudio. This hopefully will deal with some of pulseaudio worst issues taken from esound and artsd of lacking a proper low latancy. |
| 17:12.08 | pclover | jelly, that sounds like not a bad idea |
| 17:12.11 | karlpinc | greycat: There used to be kmuto (spelling?) |
| 17:12.12 | greycat | With buster's freeze process already underway, I would imagine there won't be a stretch-and-a-half either. Just buster. |
| 17:12.17 | greycat | karlpinc: that's separate |
| 17:12.40 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: oh boy, another fucking sound server. allow me to celebrate by rubbing this sandpaper on my ass. |
| 17:12.41 | jelly | pclover: I do something like that every time I migrate my home and work systems to new hardware. |
| 17:12.45 | karlpinc | greycat: But would have solved his problem. |
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| 17:13.00 | jelly | pclover: my home Debian was installed in 2001 I think |
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| 17:13.14 | pclover | that's a long time to maintain an install! |
| 17:13.35 | karlpinc | pclover: It just keeps upgrading, and works so... |
| 17:13.37 | jelly | it's still i386. |
| 17:13.44 | jelly | (mostly) |
| 17:13.52 | greycat | my computers don't last that long, cheap consumer crap... |
| 17:13.56 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: https://pipewire.org/ its not just a sound server. Its a media server. Video and audio managed by one interface. |
| 17:14.01 | jelly | pclover: there's no need to reinstall Debian ever ;-) |
| 17:14.32 | jelly | greycat: 5-6 hardware platforms, about as many releases, still the same broom |
| 17:14.38 | pclover | i've been in the notation that you should reinstall for major version upgrades |
| 17:14.41 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: oh god |
| 17:14.42 | pclover | tho minor is something very different |
| 17:14.45 | jelly | pclover: fuck no |
| 17:14.56 | jelly | Debian supports in-place release upgrades. |
| 17:15.05 | jelly | they work. |
| 17:15.10 | pclover | i haven't tested it but it's scared me lol |
| 17:15.21 | pclover | thinking i'll have a very broken package manager |
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| 17:15.39 | jelly | sure newer KDE might choke on old files and require a fresh profile sometimes |
| 17:15.52 | petn-randall | pclover: Given that's it's officially supported and extensively tested, it usually works with no little issues. |
| 17:16.13 | pclover | maybe i'll it for Debian 10 |
| 17:16.15 | pclover | whenever that is around |
| 17:16.18 | jelly | pclover: there's nothing in package manager on debian that's can't be fixed. Worst comes to happen, you have backups right? |
| 17:16.26 | pclover | ^ that yes |
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| 17:17.08 | jelly | but honestly I think I had to restore /var/lib/dpkg/status only once during that time, and that's because of lying SSD firmware |
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| 17:17.36 | jelly | "I've written this to disk, honest!" *power goes off* |
| 17:17.39 | pclover | curious what the command is to install grub2 using efi |
| 17:17.50 | jelly | it's the same |
| 17:18.05 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: If pipewire works it should properly solve audio to video sync issues as well as removing need for pulseaudio and jackaudio. |
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| 17:18.19 | pclover | jelly, you don't need to pass it any special flags? |
| 17:18.26 | jelly | you need the right grub-* package installed |
| 17:18.52 | jelly | pclover: I don't remember the details |
| 17:18.53 | karlpinc | pclover: The important thing on major upgrades is to follow the instructions in the release notes. "just doing it" can cause problems, although the release notes can help recover when things go wrong. |
| 17:19.17 | pclover | jelly, that should be covered in the wiki hopefully |
| 17:19.35 | jelly | sometimes arch wiki is better than debian's |
| 17:19.35 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: yes and then we'll have a 20 year period where nothing works because no two pieces of software support the same servers. |
| 17:19.48 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: e.g. is ardour going to support it? when? |
| 17:20.20 | pclover | so i guess i'll have to remove the grub-pc and grub-pc-bin files and install grub-efi |
| 17:20.27 | pclover | eer packages |
| 17:20.54 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: that the thing about pipewire it supporting gstreamer, pulse and jackaudio APIs. |
| 17:21.17 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: so no code modifications and ardour will support it. |
| 17:22.03 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: in theory |
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| 17:25.24 | Deihmos | anyone know what this means in fstab x-gvfs-show |
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| 17:25.32 | Deihmos | cannot find an explanation |
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| 17:26.25 | jelly | gvfs is a Gnome thing. |
| 17:27.03 | jelly | might have to do something with Gnome's file manager |
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| 17:29.08 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2018/10/30/pipewire-hackfest/ Lot of the fatals in design of doing too much in one service that pulseaudio has will be fixed by pipewire. Really me calling pipewire a media server is not exactly right either. Its a collection of media services that are designed from get go to work with each other properly. |
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| 17:29.43 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: having seen this story unfold multiple times, i will believe it when i see it. i'm not against rewrites and noble goals. |
| 17:30.33 | SerajewelKS | oiaohm: i'm against yet another standard, yet another set of problems, and distro maintainers treating users as cutting edge software testers which is exactly what we gripe at MS and apple about. |
| 17:31.50 | jelly | SerajewelKS: sometimes you learn who you can trust when they set to rewrite a thing |
| 17:32.08 | FinalX | doesn't mean the old standard was still ok in a modern world, and change isn't inheritly bad. it's true enough that that rewrite or new standard isn't good either, but it doesn't change what the old thing is. |
| 17:32.11 | oiaohm | SerajewelKS: really like it or not you don't have that much of a choice bar to-do that to end users. No developer group can have enough resoruces to test everything. |
| 17:32.47 | jelly | SerajewelKS: which is why I'm hopeful about nosh even if I haven't look at it at all yet |
| 17:33.40 | jelly | FinalX: gratuitous NIH instead of using good existing components gets on my nerves tho |
| 17:33.51 | oiaohm | The pipewire lead takes quality contol a lot more serousally than the esound, artsd and pulseaudio leads did. So I do think we might be good thing. |
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| 17:34.25 | oiaohm | jelly: problem comes defining good. |
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| 17:34.51 | FinalX | jelly: elikewise |
| 17:34.53 | FinalX | -e |
| 17:34.55 | SerajewelKS | jelly: after pulse, poettering made it onto my naughty list. then i saw him starting systemd and i had a pretty visceral reaction. |
| 17:35.28 | FinalX | I actually meant to type "might not be good either", not "isn't good either", though. |
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| 17:35.42 | SerajewelKS | broke the audio stack, what's next? how about breaking the whole system? |
| 17:35.43 | oiaohm | I see systemd as something that will have to be replaced in future. But someone had to attempt something different to broken posix api locked init systems. |
| 17:36.10 | oiaohm | The one thing poettering has is the balls to try those things. |
| 17:36.21 | jelly | SerajewelKS: but hey, pulse got good after he left, so systemd might stop with ABI breakage and reinventing stuff at some point...! |
| 17:36.41 | SerajewelKS | jelly: indeed. in the meantime i have systems i maintain... :) |
| 17:36.41 | Spec | jelly: lol |
| 17:36.43 | jhutchins_wk | I haven't seen any actual Debian support traffic in this channel in days. |
| 17:36.47 | Spec | and one day we can dream of docker and systemd working together |
| 17:37.03 | jelly | docker can DIAF, too :-) |
| 17:37.17 | oiaohm | Spec: that required docker to migrate to cgroupv2 and systemd to migrate to cgroupv2. |
| 17:37.17 | Spec | two big egos fighting it out is sorta fun to watch tho |
| 17:37.20 | FinalX | jhutchins_wk: there has been, actually :) |
| 17:37.39 | oiaohm | docker is waiting on freezer subsystem in cgroupv2 |
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| 17:38.10 | oiaohm | cgroupv1 with two items attempting to do management is just pure disaster waiting to happen. |
| 17:38.15 | Spec | oiaohm: does that fix the issues with the watchdog system in systemd? |
| 17:38.40 | jelly | SerajewelKS: yes, in the meantime, I can pick and choose which subsystems of Debian's default init to ignore completely or disable |
| 17:38.51 | Deihmos | So I can just remove it for Debian |
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| 17:39.17 | oiaohm | Spec: depends on what watchdog issue you are talking about. The one where the watchdog can get confused about groups of services because docker has been messing with things yes. |
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| 17:41.08 | jelly | and I can buy decent hardening for Linux kernel separately |
| 17:43.08 | blackflow | I'd like to ask how do you know it's decent, other than take grsec's word for it, but I don't wanna open that can of discussional worms with the "but independent audit!" can opener. |
| 17:43.12 | oiaohm | jelly: define decent. Do you mean like grsecurity that might end up breaking the drivers you need. |
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| 17:44.32 | blackflow | meanwhile the Mouth of Grsec Sauron is fuming on twatter how they're safe from whatever vuln is mentioned in the press about mainline. |
| 17:45.04 | jelly | oiaohm: I want it to break drivers, then I report that back and they fix things. |
| 17:45.14 | blackflow | if I were their legal department I'd tell them to stop. because once your grsec kernel is compromised and it will be, if it's not already, you'll have hard time definding your case with THAT twatter mouth. |
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| 17:45.34 | blackflow | *defending |
| 17:45.39 | jelly | blackflow: they're usually not wrong saying those things |
| 17:46.10 | blackflow | maybe, maybe not. |
| 17:46.15 | oiaohm | jelly: Kernel Self Protection Project that is free does that one. |
| 17:46.32 | jelly | oiaohm: I said decent. |
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| 17:46.54 | oiaohm | jelly: Linus forbids kernel self protection project or anyone going mainline deciding to use kernel panic because something just appears to have gone slightly security wrong. |
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| 17:47.20 | oiaohm | jelly: it the define of decent. |
| 17:47.24 | jelly | oiaohm: Linus is an idiot that does not understand there are users with different priorities. |
| 17:47.50 | Deihmos | my usb drive have these boot flags auto nosuid,nodev,nofail,x-gvfs-show 0 0 |
| 17:47.54 | Deihmos | is that recommended/ |
| 17:47.57 | oiaohm | jelly: no in fact going straight to kernel panic ends up not logging the issue so it cannot be simplly located and fixed. |
| 17:48.14 | oiaohm | jelly: in this case Linus is right. |
| 17:48.44 | jelly | oiaohm: no, he's not, context for those intentional BUG_ON is important. |
| 17:48.52 | blackflow | isn't the panic preceeded by a trace? |
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| 17:49.50 | jelly | "kernel was compromised, just halt right now before more data goes out" |
| 17:49.55 | oiaohm | blackflow: a critical like a BUG_ON will skip trace. |
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| 17:50.19 | jelly | it's not horribly hard to figure out why a user might _want_ that |
| 17:50.28 | oiaohm | blackflow: you need to have a debugger connected to collect those. |
| 17:50.31 | blackflow | I remember grsec erring on the side of panicking whenever it encountered something fishy. Had hard time dealing with that in prod -- yes, which only exposed broken programs/use cases, but hey, I'm not gonna fight those windmills (by trying to change the programs) |
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| 17:51.05 | oiaohm | jelly: there are other ways of stopping data going out while not doing a BUG_ON and going straight into kernel panic. |
| 17:51.41 | oiaohm | jelly: they do require more coding consideration. |
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| 17:52.17 | jelly | oiaohm: half the point of grsec is proactive measures against coding errors |
| 17:52.35 | jelly | saying "you need to code better" misses the ballpark |
| 17:52.49 | jelly | will stop commenting on this now |
| 17:53.30 | oiaohm | Major part of Kernel Self Protection Project is the same thing expect adding that to your general checkpatch. |
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| 17:54.48 | oiaohm | jelly: procative actions against coding errors is one thing. But that you are sanely fixing those the driver maintainers are highly useful. |
| 17:54.52 | blackflow | jelly: true but raises questions of usefulness, if your server is panicking once a day, and with (in)ability to fix the cause upstream. |
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| 17:55.55 | blackflow | meanwhile, I'd love to see TPE in mainline. I think there even were some patches recently to get that in |
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| 18:09.52 | oiaohm | jelly: blackmaji https://outflux.net/slides/2019/lca/danger.pdf this is a good read and lca2019 video. Kind of shows grsec problem. The C the Linux kernel developers have been using is suspect. |
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| 18:10.39 | oiaohm | There is two choices attempt to software patch over that bad code. Or what kernel self protection is doing get rid of that bad code once and for all. |
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| 18:36.16 | edmont | hi |
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| 18:37.46 | edmont | I have my PC connected to a projector and whenever I shoot the projector down my system reboots, how to avoid that? |
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| 18:40.01 | rwp | edmont, That should not happen. What are you doing when you shut down the projector? |
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| 18:40.51 | rwp | I just disconnect the cord. |
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| 18:50.41 | pclover | jelly, hum if your still around how do i create the grub.cfg for efi? |
| 18:51.00 | jelly | pclover: the same way, update-grub ? |
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| 18:51.54 | pclover | oh |
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| 19:06.26 | uio | Hi, I think my second fan on my Thinkpad X61 might be dead because in psensor it is always at 0 and then other fan near always runs. How might I go about testing this? |
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| 19:09.01 | pclover | hum well this is weird update-grub doesn't seem to want to create a config file |
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| 19:18.39 | pclover | hum so i tired to set it up and i have something that kind of works but it created a system setup entry that doesn't work |
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| 19:20.36 | jhutchins_wk | pclover: How did you get here? How did you install this system that grub wasn't installed properly? |
| 19:20.56 | pclover | trying to move a existing system to efi boot on a new disk |
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| 19:23.16 | jhutchins_wk | Let's see what dpkg says... |
| 19:23.20 | jhutchins_wk | !fixgrub |
| 19:23.21 | dpkg | To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>. |
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| 19:25.13 | pclover | pretty sure i did exactly that but will again |
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| 19:25.45 | uio | How can I tell if my machine has WWAN? |
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| 19:27.33 | rwp | uio, I think the X61 only has one fan. My X60 only has one fan. The other sensor is probably misconfigured and actually not there at all. |
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| 19:27.57 | Tenkawa | greetings all |
| 19:28.01 | jelly | uio: existence of unusual /dev/tty* devices, eg. /dev/ttyUSB* might be a clue |
| 19:28.13 | jelly | uio: does it have a sim card slot? |
| 19:29.00 | jelly | uio: might want to ask in ##ibmthinkpad |
| 19:29.25 | jelly | they sometimes know a thing or two about thinkpads |
| 19:29.29 | Tenkawa | learned a lesson this morning (mind you one he already knew in theory but not in practice). LLVM takes a ton of memory to compile |
| 19:30.00 | uio | Jelly I don't think so, but the user manual : pg 83 http://tim.id.au/laptops/lenovo/thinkpad%20x60%20x60s%20x61%20x61s.pdf says some X61 have it, but I don't know if mine does... |
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| 19:30.26 | uio | jelly, I mean, I don't think it has SIm, but it may or may not have WWAN... |
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| 19:48.32 | jhutchins_wk | uio: I would expect it to show up in lspci |
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| 19:48.54 | jhutchins_wk | uio: I would also expect some sort of switch and/or indicator light. |
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| 19:50.48 | uio | jhutchins_wk, Thanks! I'm on ibmthinkpad and they have confirmed that there is no WWAN... now I'm trying to see if there is a fan... |
| 19:50.53 | uio | a sceond fan... |
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| 19:52.47 | jhutchins_wk | Screwdrivers! |
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| 19:56.08 | pclover | jhutchins_wk, so i did that and it creates a system setup entry that fails to work. |
| 19:56.39 | pclover | unsure why it's labled system setup and it doesn't point to any root fs or anything that can actually boot the system |
| 19:57.27 | jhutchins_wk | Well, I never got either of the UEFI systems I installed to boot correctly, so I'm not much help. |
| 19:57.30 | jhutchins_wk | !uefi |
| 19:57.30 | dpkg | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is a firmware interface specification, intended to replace the <BIOS> firmware interface. Debian 7 "Wheezy" and later releases support installation in (U)EFI mode on 64-bit PC systems (amd64), <secure boot> is currently not supported. https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI |
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| 19:57.43 | jhutchins_wk | The wiki might have something. |
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| 19:58.40 | jhutchins_wk | pclover: Is it possible that the version of grub from your old install isn't EFI compatible? |
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| 19:58.51 | pclover | i reinstalled it |
| 19:59.16 | pclover | right now it boots but right now it seems the failre is update-grub for some reason |
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| 19:59.36 | themegauser | anyone here? |
| 19:59.38 | jhutchins_wk | pclover: I believe there are different packages, one of which doesn't do EFI. |
| 19:59.50 | themegauser | can somebody help me troubleshoot Xen? the #xen channel is dead |
| 20:00.00 | jhutchins_wk | themegauser: Usually a couple thousand people here. |
| 20:00.08 | themegauser | ok well i installed debian 9 |
| 20:00.16 | themegauser | xen doesn't seem to boot up properly |
| 20:00.21 | themegauser | it just reboots after boot up |
| 20:00.52 | pclover | menuentry 'System setup' $menuentry_id_option 'uefi-firmware' { |
| 20:00.52 | pclover | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:00.53 | pclover | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:01.03 | pclover | is the only thing it creates that would actually boot the system |
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| 20:05.40 | tobiasBora | Hello, |
| 20:07.01 | tobiasBora | Any people here knowing how XKB is working? I'd like to make sure that when I press Shift+KP2 (numpad 2) with NumLock active, it goes down, like if I pressed the Down arrow |
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| 20:07.42 | uio | Is a constant 3400rpm on the fan a problem? |
| 20:07.50 | rwp | pclover, grub-pc is legacy bios. grub-efi-amd64 is needed or efi systmes. |
| 20:08.06 | pclover | yeah i have that installed |
| 20:09.16 | tobiasBora | So I tried to create a new type FOUR_LEVEL_MIXED_KEYPAP_CUST (based on FOUR_LEVEL_MIXED_KEYPAD), and I added there "map[Shift+NumLock]= Level1; preserve[Shift+NumLock]= None;", and same thing with Control in place of Shift. Unfortunately, in LibreOffice Calc, when I press Ctrl/Shift + KP2, it still goes down, but it also "selects" the cells, like if I pressed Shift + Down |
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| 20:09.41 | tobiasBora | (Of course I updated the type in key <KP2> { .... } |
| 20:09.57 | tobiasBora | You can find here the full paste of my file: http://paste.debian.net/1063341 |
| 20:10.11 | tobiasBora | (and here is a more detailed list of what I exactly changed) |
| 20:10.13 | tobiasBora | https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/497524/xkb-shift-or-control-numpad-down-without-shift |
| 20:10.38 | tobiasBora | Let me know if you know how to "remove" this Shift from the KP2... |
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| 20:11.16 | tobiasBora | NB: and when I do Ctrl+KP2... Nothing happend. |
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| 20:12.03 | ebol4 | when I plug in a USB wifi dongle (comes up as wlan0), it starts DOWN, and I have to manually set the interface to UP to do anything with it |
| 20:12.13 | ebol4 | can I make it so it automatically starts as UP when I plug it in? |
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| 20:12.37 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: put it in /etc/network/interfaces with allow-hotplug, presumably |
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| 20:15.58 | ebol4 | SerajewelKS: is there a way to extend that for an arbitrary number of wlan interfaces? |
| 20:16.06 | ebol4 | like if I have wlan1, 2, 3, 4, 5... |
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| 20:18.23 | uio | Normal fan speeds? |
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| 20:20.23 | ksk | uio: not a debian questions? some context? If I had to guess: everything is fine. |
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| 20:20.57 | uio | Is a constant 3400rpm on the fan a problem? |
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| 20:21.24 | ksk | I can only repeat what I just said :> |
| 20:21.27 | uio | ksk, I've been trying to find reference values online... |
| 20:21.44 | uio | ksk, Okay. Cool. |
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| 20:22.11 | ksk | 3400rpm sounds reasonable for some fans, yes. the smaller the higher they turn most often. |
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| 20:22.39 | uio | ksk, Okay, thanks. BTW, what is a 'debian question' for you? |
| 20:23.11 | ksk | also, these pins fans are connected to on a computer are kind of normalized/standardized, so its unlikely something will break if you put on a "normal pc fan" |
| 20:23.13 | uio | ksk, Yeah it's small and old. |
| 20:23.29 | uio | ksk, a Thinkpad X61. |
| 20:23.43 | uio | ksk, Okay. I see. |
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| 20:24.13 | ksk | uio: A question that arises during (your) use of debian linux. You have more a genral hardware question, not related to debian. |
| 20:24.22 | Tenkawa | i dont think that model has a variable speed controller either |
| 20:24.34 | Tenkawa | like my model does |
| 20:24.51 | Tenkawa | I can hear the rpm shift in mine |
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| 20:26.26 | uio | Tenkawa, Sometimes it increases, but usually stays at 3400 |
| 20:27.07 | Tenkawa | yeah thats not surprising |
| 20:27.14 | uio | ksk, Hmmm, I see the softward / hardware line as a bit more flexible seeing as things like drivers and so on affect our experience a lot. |
| 20:27.33 | uio | Tenkawa, Okay, thanks for the input :) |
| 20:27.37 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: not to my knowledge. usually you don't need 5 wlan interfaces...? |
| 20:28.00 | uio | ksk, 'Pure' software doesn't exist, just as the human mind needs a body... |
| 20:28.02 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: i mean you could write a script that monitors udev events looking for wlan interfaces. |
| 20:28.41 | Tenkawa | uio: one important thing is to keep the entry/exit clean |
| 20:28.51 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: what is your actual goal? |
| 20:28.53 | pclover | jhutchins_wk, wow i figured it out... Somehow none of my boot files copied over. No WONDER update-grub was creating no entires to actually boot the system. |
| 20:28.58 | Tenkawa | and if you do have access to the fan clean it |
| 20:28.59 | uio | Tenkawa, The vent? |
| 20:29.02 | Tenkawa | yes |
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| 20:29.07 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: because surely it's not "plug 5 wlan adapters in at once and have them come up automatically" |
| 20:29.11 | uio | Tenkawa, I opened it up, no dust :) |
| 20:29.26 | Tenkawa | make sure it spins nicely |
| 20:29.30 | uio | Tenkawa, I looks like the machine was in storage for a decade! |
| 20:29.36 | uio | Tenkawa, That has been the concern... |
| 20:29.53 | uio | Tenkawa, I oiled it, but I notice a reving, or a pulsing of sorts. |
| 20:30.12 | uio | Tenkawa, As if it spins and then has to catch up, so it accelerates a bit. |
| 20:30.19 | Tenkawa | you shouldnt use oil |
| 20:30.24 | uio | Tenkawa, ?? |
| 20:30.30 | uio | Tenkawa, What should one use? |
| 20:30.36 | Tenkawa | theres something specific for bearings |
| 20:30.39 | uio | Tenkawa, Oh I greased it up ;) |
| 20:30.45 | uio | Tenkawa, Oops. |
| 20:30.50 | ebol4 | SerajewelKS: I regularly unplug and plug in additional wlan adapters for testing purposes. When I used a raspberry pi running raspbian for this, the wlan adapters came up automatically when they were plugged in. i switched to plain debian on an x86 board and now the wlan adapters start DOWN, and i have to manually set them each to UP before i try to use them |
| 20:30.54 | Tenkawa | (cant think of it atm) |
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| 20:31.00 | uio | Tenkawa, I put bicycle chain oil on on the fan! |
| 20:31.15 | uio | Tenkawa, On the axle. |
| 20:31.16 | Tenkawa | thinking... |
| 20:31.17 | uio | Did wonders. |
| 20:31.22 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: isn't this something the GUI network manager should be handling? |
| 20:31.25 | ebol4 | SerajewelKS: now that i think about it, it was probably network-manager |
| 20:31.25 | ebol4 | yep |
| 20:31.41 | ebol4 | PROBLEM SOLVED good work everyone |
| 20:31.45 | SerajewelKS | ebol4: auto-configuring wlan doesn't make much sense unless they all connect to the same SSID |
| 20:32.12 | uio | ebol4, !!!¡¡¡ |
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| 20:32.45 | ebol4 | i don't need them autoconfigured or anything, I just need them to be UP so I can use them |
| 20:32.53 | ebol4 | "iw" complains if the interface is set to down |
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| 20:34.54 | Tenkawa | uio: now I remember.. sewing machine oil and such works for short amount of times but if its needed already the fan itself probably should be switched out |
| 20:34.56 | pclover | jelly, so if you ever curious I did get my idea working and converted a system form non efi to efi boot. :) |
| 20:35.18 | pclover | tho i spent an hour trying to figure out why update-grub was not creating boot entries. truns out none of the boot filed copied over... |
| 20:35.21 | pclover | files |
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| 20:35.41 | uio | Tenkawa, Okay, thanks. I have a new fan and will probs replace it soon, but for now the temps seem fine. |
| 20:35.55 | Tenkawa | uio: cool. good luck |
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| 20:36.33 | Tenkawa | pclover: *shudder* efi |
| 20:36.39 | Tenkawa | hehehn |
| 20:36.44 | pclover | get use to it |
| 20:36.47 | pclover | MBR is going out |
| 20:36.48 | Tenkawa | i know |
| 20:37.05 | Tenkawa | believe me I've got 3 boxes sitting right here I had to switch to it |
| 20:37.42 | Tenkawa | doesnt mean I have to like it |
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| 20:54.07 | amsaal | hi |
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| 21:09.36 | wyre | what do you think about this java error handling stdin? https://bpaste.net/show/0133fef09fb9 |
| 21:09.44 | wyre | how could I traceback it? |
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| 21:14.56 | blackflow | wyre: no luck with #java? :) |
| 21:15.17 | wyre | blackflow, nope, it is a dev channel |
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| 21:15.21 | wyre | not tech support |
| 21:15.29 | blackflow | precisely, they could explain that trace perhaps |
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| 21:39.50 | SerajewelKS | wyre: shot in the dark time. "resource temporarily unavailable" is the stringified form of at least one error number, including EAGAIN. which makes me think that stdin was set to do non-blocking IO, but the JRE's FileInputStream and/or BufferedInputStream doesn't know what to do with non-blocking IO. |
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| 21:40.25 | SerajewelKS | org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream in particular makes this scenario seem likely. if that stream class expects EAGAIN then it should be catching that exception in read(). |
| 21:40.29 | wyre | SerajewelKS, well, then what could I do? |
| 21:40.38 | foul_owl | Is it not recommended to use the nvidia driver from nvidia's site? If so, why is that not recommended? |
| 21:40.46 | SerajewelKS | wyre: call a bug on org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream not catching EAGAIN properly |
| 21:41.01 | wyre | SerajewelKS, but do you think this is a bug? |
| 21:41.18 | SerajewelKS | wyre: based solely on the information i have, it warrants a bug report |
| 21:41.22 | SerajewelKS | they can decide if it's really a bug |
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| 21:41.49 | SerajewelKS | google found a thread of people discussing the same trace from a different minecraft plugin. they blamed the kernel, with zero evidence. |
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| 21:42.36 | greycat | !blame linux |
| 21:42.36 | dpkg | blames PhilSliderS and linux for the end of the Internet as we know it |
| 21:42.39 | wyre | SerajewelKS, I've been talking with Spigot devs and they think is not a bug |
| 21:42.51 | SerajewelKS | if you're doing non-blocking IO then you have to handle EAGAIN, it's literally the mechanism by which O_NONBLOCK tells you "i don't have anything right now" |
| 21:42.57 | wyre | they think it could be related with this machine |
| 21:43.21 | SerajewelKS | wyre: the stack trace unfortunately does not include the actual errno (which might NOT be EAGAIN) |
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| 21:43.50 | wyre | SerajewelKS, how could I force to include the errno? |
| 21:44.03 | wyre | in the stack trace, I mean |
| 21:44.05 | SerajewelKS | i'm not sure. the exception is coming from the JRE. |
| 21:44.18 | SerajewelKS | but nothing is catching it (org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream.read presumably should be catching it) |
| 21:44.54 | wyre | the point is Spigot devs cannot reproduce the issue |
| 21:45.10 | wyre | so they don't think the issue comes from the code itself |
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| 21:46.00 | SerajewelKS | well the IO error is not coming from the code |
| 21:46.30 | SerajewelKS | but it _looks_ like (as someone who doesn't know this code and has a single stack trace to go off of) that something should be handling EAGAIN properly |
| 21:46.38 | SerajewelKS | if it even is EAGAIN |
| 21:46.47 | SerajewelKS | but this is between you and the devs |
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| 21:47.27 | SerajewelKS | the "can't reproduce" part of their response is correct. the "they don't think the issue comes from the code itself" part is a bit optimistic on their part. |
| 21:48.30 | SerajewelKS | strace could tell you the errno |
| 21:50.22 | wyre | strace? |
| 21:50.30 | wyre | how can I use that? |
| 21:50.31 | SerajewelKS | man strace |
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| 21:51.25 | wyre | SerajewelKS, but must be run the java over strace? |
| 21:51.29 | wyre | or how does it work? |
| 21:51.31 | sobrito | If i develop a application (in c or php) and install on Debian (GPL license) and distribuite this solution (my app + debian) in a appliance (both installed in a hardware) and sell this appliance (harware + debian + my app). The my app is necessarily a app GPL and i need provide the source code to my client or i can keep my app proprietary and not provide the source code from my app? |
| 21:51.31 | sobrito | In this environment no provide the source code is a violation from GPL? |
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| 21:51.55 | SerajewelKS | wyre: you run java via strace and strace logs out every system call that is made (you probably want to tell strace to save the output in a file) |
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| 21:52.53 | sammm | hey all, I have been using equivs-build to create an empty package to manage dependancies for a client, they are wanting some preinst / postinst scripts included and was wondeirng what hte best tool for the job was as equivs (as far as I know) doesn't let me easily do this |
| 21:52.58 | sammm | any help is appreciated, thanks |
| 21:53.06 | wyre | but I need so many parameters when running mc server via java |
| 21:53.35 | SerajewelKS | sobrito: "Debian (GPL license)" <-- debian is not released under a single license |
| 21:54.07 | SerajewelKS | wyre: so make a script |
| 21:54.17 | SerajewelKS | wyre: have your script "exec" java. then strace your script. |
| 21:57.18 | wyre | SerajewelKS, http://ix.io/1zxg |
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| 21:57.30 | wyre | that's the firs stage, when java throws the error |
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| 21:59.12 | mrquincy | I am greatly disturbed by the trend of removing pc speaker (pcspkr) functionality in Ubuntu and Debian. Can I get an amen? |
| 21:59.16 | wyre | SerajewelKS, "access("/etc/ld.so.nohwcap", F_OK) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)" |
| 21:59.19 | wyre | what? xdd |
| 21:59.41 | greycat | It is completely normal for programs to attempt to open files that are not there. |
| 21:59.51 | mrquincy | What I mean is...in a sane world...you type "beep" and you get one. |
| 21:59.52 | SerajewelKS | wyre: you need to give strace the -f flag as well, java is creating tons of threads and the exception is happening on one of those |
| 21:59.52 | sammm | it means it tried and failed to open a file |
| 21:59.55 | greycat | The kernel sends ENOENT, the program sees this and moves on. |
| 22:00.22 | Tenkawa | someone fill me in on the quick background.. whats his issue? |
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| 22:00.38 | Tenkawa | I'm fairly decent at tracing java |
| 22:00.39 | sammm | greycat: oh hey it's you! just would like to say thanks for your bash wiki, literally got a job because of it |
| 22:01.12 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: io exception in his minecraft server, appears to be EAGAIN on a quick glance, and nothing is catching it. we're trying to verify that EAGAIN is the error. |
| 22:01.32 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: which is mysterious because the exception passes through a NonBlockingStream which doesn't catch it... seems like a non blocking stream should expect EAGAIN |
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| 22:01.45 | Tenkawa | ahh .. can you catch even the thread that the exception is called from? |
| 22:01.51 | Tenkawa | or is it from main? |
| 22:01.59 | SerajewelKS | unclear |
| 22:02.11 | SerajewelKS | https://bpaste.net/show/0133fef09fb9 |
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| 22:02.26 | Tenkawa | just a sec.. let me take a look |
| 22:02.52 | SerajewelKS | "resource temporary unavailable" is the strerror() for EAGAIN but i think it's also the strerror() for other errnos |
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| 22:03.33 | Tenkawa | hmmmmm |
| 22:03.35 | SerajewelKS | i wonder what happens if stdin is redirected from /dev/null |
| 22:03.39 | Tenkawa | I wonder |
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| 22:03.53 | Tenkawa | is that openjdk 1.8 compat? |
| 22:04.03 | Tenkawa | i saw that in his other trace |
| 22:04.06 | wyre | I've got a 146M log |
| 22:04.14 | wyre | I cannot upload it xddd |
| 22:04.24 | SerajewelKS | thinking it might be a bug in openjdk's JRE? |
| 22:04.32 | Tenkawa | if it cant read those class files and run them |
| 22:04.49 | SerajewelKS | it's very clearly running |
| 22:05.06 | Tenkawa | parts of it are potentially |
| 22:05.29 | SerajewelKS | i don't think you'll get an IOException if a .class file (not being loaded from reflection) fails, wouldn't you get an Error subtype? |
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| 22:05.49 | Tenkawa | it could be broken in sections.. thats why thread captures are crucial i think |
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| 22:06.13 | wyre | give me a moment, I'm going to upload the log to my MEGA account |
| 22:06.21 | Tenkawa | run it live then backtrace it once it happens |
| 22:06.25 | SerajewelKS | yes but an IOException seems unlikely in that case. and especially since the backtrace indicates this is happening in read() in think occam's razor suggests it's failing to read stdin. |
| 22:06.44 | SerajewelKS | what you're suggesting is a huge stretch in contradiction with the stack trace |
| 22:06.50 | Tenkawa | well ioexceptions are handlers and those do tend to get changed a lot |
| 22:07.42 | Tenkawa | the url you gave me only had 15 lines |
| 22:07.52 | Tenkawa | that wasnt much to work with |
| 22:07.54 | SerajewelKS | the trace shows an IOException from FileInputStream.read() |
| 22:07.56 | SerajewelKS | i agree |
| 22:08.08 | wyre | how can I provide you more info? |
| 22:08.19 | Tenkawa | hmmm |
| 22:08.21 | SerajewelKS | that trace indicates failure to read from standard input as the starting point, which is why we're stracing |
| 22:08.41 | Tenkawa | file handler path... config file maybe> |
| 22:08.47 | SerajewelKS | jumping into "maybe a .class file can't be loaded" is a huge leap... |
| 22:08.54 | Tenkawa | true |
| 22:09.09 | Tenkawa | does this thing use config files for path locations? |
| 22:09.30 | SerajewelKS | i mean the bottom of the trace is ConsoleReader |
| 22:09.31 | wyre | what thing? Minecraft server? |
| 22:09.38 | SerajewelKS | are we going to ignore that and assume it's NOT reading from the console? |
| 22:09.55 | wyre | the issue after this message when server is starting is that I cannot use the console server |
| 22:10.03 | wyre | that's why it is stdin involved |
| 22:10.04 | wyre | I think |
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| 22:10.51 | SerajewelKS | we're looking to see if the exception is caused by EAGAIN. if so, then NonBlockingInputStream should handle that (i'd think) and we can call a bug on that class. |
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| 22:11.30 | SerajewelKS | looks like this is a thread dedicated to console i/o though, so i have no idea why the i/o would need to be non-blocking in the first place |
| 22:11.31 | wyre | are you going to be able to read this log? |
| 22:11.46 | wyre | it is 186M large |
| 22:12.05 | SerajewelKS | we're not reading the whole thing, just looking for the revelant part |
| 22:12.10 | Tenkawa | oh i'm finding interesting hits from google on this error |
| 22:12.23 | SerajewelKS | i found some too, which blamed the kernel |
| 22:12.29 | SerajewelKS | got a chuckle out of that |
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| 22:12.34 | wyre | SerajewelKS, where are you finding? in here? http://ix.io/1zxg |
| 22:12.39 | SerajewelKS | "we're doing non-blocking IO wrong, must be the kernel's fault" |
| 22:12.45 | friendofafriend | Sheesh, by the time you're making logs that big, it's time to start zipping them. |
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| 22:12.49 | Tenkawa | these blame multiple servers running and port forwarding |
| 22:13.00 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: the fuck? |
| 22:13.17 | Tenkawa | https://bukkit.org/threads/server-wont-open.403990/ |
| 22:13.21 | SerajewelKS | minecraft server support threads, a great place to find the blind leading the blind... |
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| 22:13.43 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: that's not the same error |
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| 22:14.06 | SerajewelKS | also "the handle is invalid" looks very much like a windows error |
| 22:14.21 | Tenkawa | i looked up the java exceptions verbatim |
| 22:14.57 | Tenkawa | and its in that thread |
| 22:14.58 | SerajewelKS | "the handle is invalid" != "resource not available", this is not the same error. and the server proceeds beyond that point anyway. |
| 22:15.06 | SerajewelKS | no it's not |
| 22:15.25 | SerajewelKS | it's thrown at the same point but is a different error |
| 22:15.46 | SerajewelKS | wyre: is this exception where the server stops? is there anything else in the output? |
| 22:15.50 | wyre | the server is working fine, just that I cannot use console server |
| 22:15.58 | Tenkawa | oh |
| 22:16.01 | wyre | SerajewelKS, nope |
| 22:16.13 | SerajewelKS | wyre: aha okay, i thought the server was dying here |
| 22:16.15 | wyre | well, wait, I'm gonna pass you the whole server starting log |
| 22:16.23 | wyre | no, the server works perfectly |
| 22:16.33 | SerajewelKS | regardless, it does look a lot like they're trying non-blocking IO without handling EAGAIN which would be a bug |
| 22:16.36 | Tenkawa | well that could very easily be a setting |
| 22:16.40 | wyre | is just I cannot control it from its own console |
| 22:17.02 | Tenkawa | that it cant read from a file |
| 22:17.16 | Tenkawa | because of a missing attribute |
| 22:17.28 | wyre | a workaround is to include --nojline as spigot.jar parameter |
| 22:17.34 | wyre | then I have got a primitive prompt |
| 22:17.41 | wyre | without colours or autocomplete |
| 22:18.31 | SerajewelKS | aha so it's a readline-like thing |
| 22:19.33 | SerajewelKS | wyre: i wonder what happens if you use oracle's JRE instead of openjdk |
| 22:19.48 | wyre | SerajewelKS, I'm using oracle's |
| 22:19.55 | wyre | but is the same with openjdk |
| 22:20.02 | wyre | I did test that yesterday xddd |
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| 22:21.09 | wyre | SerajewelKS, this is the whole log server in starting process http://ix.io/1zxn |
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| 22:21.38 | SerajewelKS | i'd 100% call a bug on jline |
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| 22:22.00 | wyre | SerajewelKS, where? minecraft server devs? |
| 22:22.02 | wyre | jre? |
| 22:22.09 | wyre | ubuntu? |
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| 22:28.54 | wyre | SerajewelKS, so are you suggesting me to fill a bug report, right? |
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| 22:43.30 | SerajewelKS | wyre: against jline, which appears to be part of (or imported into) craftbukkit |
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| 22:56.13 | rmzelnick | I need help resetting mysql server password |
| 22:56.15 | wyre | SerajewelKS, mmm I cannot find where report that |
| 22:56.40 | rmzelnick | I've tried using the skip-grant-tables and updated the user table, but still the error persists |
| 22:56.56 | rmzelnick | Now I'm trying this approach by using dpkg-reconfigure |
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| 22:57.09 | wyre | I think I've got jline2 |
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| 22:57.17 | rmzelnick | however dpkg-reconfigure mysql-server does not prompts me to update the password |
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| 23:01.08 | mrquincy | rmzelnick: you're sure the service was stopped when you did this? |
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| 23:02.34 | wyre | SerajewelKS, I had not jline installed, could be this the issue? |
| 23:02.46 | wyre | which version should I install? jline or jline2? |
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| 23:05.11 | jmcnaught | rmzelnick: are you using stretch? |
| 23:05.13 | wyre | oh, these look like dev libraries, not packaged software |
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| 23:06.23 | tpo2 | what happened to gcc's documentation aka gcc-8-doc? it's not in the repo? |
| 23:07.13 | SerajewelKS | wyre: it's bundled |
| 23:07.27 | jmcnaught | tpo2: some GNU documentation is in the non-free section in Debian |
| 23:07.33 | wyre | SerajewelKS, inside jre? |
| 23:08.32 | rmzelnick | mrquincy: systemctl stop mariadb.service |
| 23:08.37 | rmzelnick | jmcnaught: yes |
| 23:09.08 | tpo2 | jmcnaught, i have non-free in my sources, but gcc-8-doc not available - https://packages.debian.org/sid/gcc-8-doc |
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| 23:09.47 | tpo2 | jmcnaught, which docu package do you mean? |
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| 23:10.18 | rmzelnick | is there a proper way of stopping mysql? |
| 23:10.20 | jmcnaught | rmzelnick: if you're trying to change the root password you should read the README.Debian in (I think) /usr/share/doc/mariadb-server-10.1, there are notes about changes to root user authentication |
| 23:10.30 | SerajewelKS | wyre: inside craftbukkit |
| 23:10.54 | rmzelnick | mariadb.service - MariaDB database server Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/mariadb.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead) |
| 23:11.14 | rmzelnick | jmcnaught: will do |
| 23:11.18 | jmcnaught | tpo2: maybe ask in the testing/unstable channel #debian-next on irc.oftc.net, someone there might know. I'm on stable, i have gcc-6-doc |
| 23:11.32 | tpo2 | thanks |
| 23:12.26 | tpo2 | jmcnaught, the channel is invitation only |
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| 23:12.39 | jmcnaught | tpo2: it's on another server, irc.oftc.net |
| 23:12.49 | tpo2 | thanks again! |
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| 23:14.37 | wyre | SerajewelKS, well, then where should I report that? github? and which version are bukkit devs using? jline, jline2 or jline3? |
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| 23:14.59 | rmzelnick | jmcnaught: the only thing it mentions about passwords is how you can prevent typing the password everytime you want to login |
| 23:15.41 | jmcnaught | rmzelnick: there's also a whole section on "ROOT USER AUTHENTICATION VIA UNIX SOCKET" |
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| 23:17.24 | noctambulo | why xmodmap -e 'keycode 237=' isn't working for disabling the brightness key? |
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| 23:18.59 | rmzelnick | jmcnaught: so from what I read, if you run mysql as root then you don't have to enter the password, and from there I can reset the root's password. Is that correct? |
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| 23:20.16 | jmcnaught | rmzelnick: or you simply don't give mysql root a password, and log in as root or use sudo to access the mysql root user. The README also shows examples of making other users with GRANT privileges, that user can optionally have a password |
| 23:20.50 | rmzelnick | yes I read that too |
| 23:21.01 | rmzelnick | I'll look into it and let you know |
| 23:21.05 | rmzelnick | thanks for helping out |
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| 23:24.11 | rmzelnick | I got 0 rows affected, and 1 warning but no warning message is displayed |
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| 23:28.01 | mrquincy | Currently troubleshooting a problem with PC Speaker. Not blacklisted in /etc/modprobe.d and only relevant output i can get during loading the module is here: https://8n1.org/14485/e73f |
| 23:28.13 | mrquincy | Any thoughts? |
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| 23:35.42 | rant | mrquincy: what is the problem? |
| 23:35.58 | rant | cause all I see is you showing it working |
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| 23:37.49 | mrquincy | Well that's a good start anyway |
| 23:38.02 | mrquincy | I'm not able to get "beep" to work at either pty or tty terminals |
| 23:39.30 | rant | mrquincy: what kind of system is this? |
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| 23:40.15 | mrquincy | It's a Lenovo T480 running stretch |
| 23:40.29 | mrquincy | Linux ridgeback 4.9.0-8-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.130-2 (2018-10-27) x86_64 GNU/Linux |
| 23:40.46 | rant | mrquincy: chances are it doesnt have a pc speaker which means it'd be emulating it via an alsa loopback |
| 23:40.56 | mrquincy | I get a beep at POST |
| 23:41.13 | rant | yes, probably through the sound card and normal speakers |
| 23:41.17 | rant | mrquincy: run alsamixer |
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| 23:41.29 | mrquincy | weird, my t470 had one |
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| 23:41.46 | mrquincy | I have alsamixer up. no pcspkr though |
| 23:42.10 | rant | mrquincy: press f6 and tell me what sound cards are listed |
| 23:42.26 | mrquincy | only HDA Intel PCH |
| 23:42.37 | mrquincy | and "- (default)" |
| 23:42.50 | rant | ok, do you see a "beep" or "loopback" channel? |
| 23:43.30 | mrquincy | I don't. I do see Master, Headphone, Speaker, PCM, Mic Boost and some spdif's |
| 23:43.41 | calamari | The debian installer is able to install grub to my EFI machine so that it boots, but I can't seem to replicate its success via the grub-install command lines I've tried. Could anyone point me to the Debian installer grub installation source code or scripts so I can analyze them for clues? |
| 23:43.58 | rant | mrquincy: what is showing at the bottom of the speaker channel? |
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| 23:44.43 | mrquincy | MM |
| 23:44.54 | mrquincy | What's that mean? |
| 23:45.11 | rant | means its muted |
| 23:45.17 | rant | press m to unmute |
| 23:45.49 | mrquincy | ok, now it says 00 |
| 23:45.55 | rant | on my system, Lenovo X240 I have a loopback toggle which must be set to enable and a beep channel which must be unmuted and turned up for beep to work |
| 23:46.04 | mrquincy | i tried a beep from another terminal, but no dice |
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| 23:46.19 | rant | the speaker has nothing to do with the pcspkr functionality on my system |
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| 23:48.35 | rant | of course my system also doesnt require the pcspkr module to be loaded |
| 23:48.41 | rant | to run "beep" |
| 23:48.59 | mrquincy | It appears the speaker channel was only mutd because headphones were plugge din |
| 23:49.50 | rant | yes well when I plug in headphones I get the beep in the headphones |
| 23:50.17 | rant | and I have DP/HDMI plugged in..the beep can only operate on my analog audio |
| 23:50.49 | rant | unfortunately you have a totally undocumented machine.. the T 4xx are sparsely documented, the t470 not at all |
| 23:51.33 | blackflow | rant: u sure that's not just pcspkr emulation through alsa? pcspkr is that little buzzing thing on the mobo. no volume to it, or anything like that. and it needs teh module afaik |
| 23:51.58 | rant | I know what a pc speaker is.. most computers don't have them anymore |
| 23:52.03 | rant | they emulate the |
| 23:52.05 | blackflow | notsure if modern mobos evencome with one any more |
| 23:52.11 | blackflow | yea that. |
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| 23:54.15 | mrquincy | I'm beginning to suspect you're right. I could have swore mt t470 had that. My t420 definitely, does, because it's next to me beeping happily. |
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| 23:54.39 | rant | you should still be able to beep regardless |
| 23:54.47 | rant | alsa does pcspkr emulation |
| 23:54.58 | rant | I dont have a pcspkr and I can beep |
| 23:56.22 | mrquincy | I liked the t420's beep because it was "out of band" with respect to my other audio settings. if headphones were plugged in etc |
| 23:56.39 | mrquincy | but in any case, I'd be satisfied with an emulated beep |
| 23:56.50 | mrquincy | for...composition purposes :P |
| 23:56.54 | blackflow | rant: sounds like something that should be put on a t-shirt. "I don't have a pcspkr and I can beep!" |
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| 23:57.30 | mrquincy | empowering! |
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| 23:59.02 | rant | feels empowered to defecate |
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