| 00:00.09 | blackflow | altker128: isn't the question really about which processes you run? I mean it's just a namespace. and the diff is probably due to all the bloatware glibc and friends begot between releases |
| 00:00.22 | konimex | if one is lazy just use default ubuntu and be done with it, no need to argue or ask back and forth |
| 00:00.31 | altker128 | blackflow: Well, that's the funny thing, I just mean freshly created containers, nothing installed or running on either after creation time |
| 00:00.43 | blackflow | altker128: oh you mean filesystem size? |
| 00:00.48 | altker128 | blackflow: No, RAM utilization |
| 00:01.05 | blackflow | then something MUST be running, a container is just a namespace |
| 00:01.07 | altker128 | blackflow: i.e. lxc-create -n debjessie -t jessie ; lxc-start -n debjessie |
| 00:01.15 | blackflow | with LXC methinks it runs systemd as pid1 in it, no? |
| 00:01.27 | altker128 | then doing an htop in debjessie shows ~10 MB of RAM ; doing same with stretch shows 50-60MB of RAM |
| 00:01.40 | altker128 | I notice Stretch images have agetty and a few other things |
| 00:01.51 | altker128 | (those are "default", I didn't go out of my way to add them) |
| 00:02.22 | blackflow | altker128: well 2+ years of added bloat :) |
| 00:02.26 | altker128 | sigh |
| 00:02.28 | altker128 | That's sad |
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| 00:02.41 | blackflow | that's just software, nothing specific to debian |
| 00:02.47 | blackflow | but yeah definitely sad |
| 00:06.18 | altker128 | proxmox was (is?) pretty cool but surprisingly the current versions show like 700MB memory usage with nothing running! |
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| 00:11.45 | blackflow | altker128: but those are VMs, not containers? or does proxmox do containers now |
| 00:12.07 | Deihmos | the version of sabnzbd in stable is so old https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/sabnzbdplus |
| 00:12.17 | Deihmos | didn't realize apps took so long to move to stable |
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| 00:16.16 | altker128 | blackflow: Proxmox uses lxc and does containers now by default |
| 00:16.29 | altker128 | blackflow: It used to use openvz (containers prior to lxc as you probably know) |
| 00:17.32 | blackflow | yeah I thought it only did VMs. I see |
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| 00:19.51 | altker128 | blackflow: It's based on Debian now so you can do a netinstall and then install the proxmox packages |
| 00:19.53 | kanliot | I'm trying to run some script from pip. is there a smart way to install the newwer pythons, like 3? |
| 00:19.55 | kanliot | 3.? |
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| 00:20.42 | blackflow | kanliot: like `apt install python3` ? |
| 00:21.39 | kanliot | are you being sarcastic? |
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| 00:22.31 | kanliot | because python -V prints 2.7 and I have python3 installed |
| 00:23.15 | blackflow | kanliot: I'm not. run python3 if you want python3. PEP-394 states `python` should always be 2.x |
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| 00:24.37 | kanliot | I didn't know that |
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| 00:39.23 | in1t3r | anyone here using kmail on Debian? |
| 00:39.46 | in1t3r | Do you have bug with adding labels to the messages in kmail? |
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| 00:47.19 | bltzfsck | exit |
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| 01:11.11 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Nothing moves to stable. Once it's in stable it stays that way, absent security fixes or other very major brokenness. That's what makes stable stable. |
| 01:12.16 | Deihmos | oh |
| 01:12.37 | Deihmos | but then you lack new features for years |
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| 01:14.37 | karlpinc | !sns |
| 01:14.37 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
| 01:15.29 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Yes. There are various options. The first question is "is a new feature important enough to have to pay for it with my time, keeping abrest of security, etc.?" |
| 01:15.49 | blackflow | abrest. *giggitty* |
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| 01:16.15 | karlpinc | Deihmos: There is the backports repo. Or you can backport yourself. Either way the debian security team does not provide support. |
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| 01:17.51 | karlpinc | With something like python or nodejs, you use virtual environments to isolate from the OS and an entirely separate set of repos to get newer stuff. |
| 01:17.55 | Deihmos | so when buster is released those packages are moved to stable and stay that way until the next release |
| 01:17.58 | Deihmos | is that correct? |
| 01:18.02 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Yes. |
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| 01:18.38 | karlpinc | See also the <don't break debian> and <debian software> factoids for recommended ways to install software. |
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| 01:20.46 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Mostly, the Linux magic is that you get all your software from a single source -- which ensures that it works. Otherwise, installing from hither and yon your system eventually does what MS Windows does. Turns to mud and must be wiped and re-installed. Many folks here have installs over a decade old, disks moved to newer boxes, disks replaced, until there's nothing left of the install's original hardware. |
| 01:22.35 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Of course you should _read_ the release notes of a major Debian release before upgrading. As a rule Debian installs just keep going. Which means my valuable time is not wasted. For that I can (usually) wait a little to get newer software. |
| 01:24.13 | Deihmos | so if an app is available in the debian repo but you can also add the source repo you would prefer to stick with debian? |
| 01:24.47 | karlpinc | Deihmos: RedHat plays it the other way. Support of a given OS release can last for over a decade. But you have to migrate to a new install to get a new major RH OS release, which is painful. |
| 01:24.59 | karlpinc | !tell Deihmos about frankendebian |
| 01:25.13 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Yes. |
| 01:26.06 | Deihmos | i take it you don't install anything outside of debian repo. |
| 01:26.09 | karlpinc | Deihmos: There are a few exceptions. The only one I can think of is the Postgresql upstream repos. The Debian devs are closely involved and they are pretty much guarentteed to work with debian. |
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| 01:27.21 | karlpinc | Deihmos: I pretty much stick to the debian repos. When I don't I make sure to isolate what I'm doing using one of the tricks on the "don't break debian" wiki.debian.org page. |
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| 01:28.34 | Deihmos | i see. i guess that's why docker was recommended for what i am doing |
| 01:28.36 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Sometimes I self-backport something from sid. But having the security team worrying about security keeps me from having to keep watch. |
| 01:29.56 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Docker, or a full-on VM is a good way to isolate. |
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| 01:33.54 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Debian is also secure because it does not upgrade software and so does not add new security problems. Instead... |
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| 01:34.03 | karlpinc | !security backports |
| 01:34.04 | dpkg | Debian incorporates security fixes into the version currently in <stable>. This is non-trivial so it may take a couple days. Backporting security fixes means that you can update the package without problems like changed behaviour that would come with updating to a new version of the software. The upstream version number doesn't change in the Debian package when this is done; check the changelog or the <tracker of doom>. |
| 01:35.12 | karlpinc | No new software == no new security vulnerabilties |
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| 01:39.44 | Deihmos | a lot of the apps i use aren't in the debian repo |
| 01:39.50 | Deihmos | plex as an example |
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| 01:41.13 | galaxie | Ok, so I finally decided to try and solve my mic issues with Debian. As far as I remember, the internal mic and any mic I had worked perfectly with Windows so unless it broke or something it's probably a Linux thing. |
| 01:41.29 | galaxie | It still picks up something.. but it's very faint and mostly a lot of static. |
| 01:43.28 | galaxie | Right now I can't find an external mic so I'll just try to fix whatever issues the internal mic is having. |
| 01:43.31 | galaxie | Any ideas? |
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| 01:49.00 | galaxie | Is it just me or does Audacity mess with Alsa's settings? |
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| 01:50.23 | galaxie | Hmmm, apparently arecord messes with them too. |
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| 02:08.48 | karlpinc | !tell galaxie about alsa checklist |
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| 02:13.51 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: it might be the dB boost setting, which should be available in alsa as a switch |
| 02:14.43 | SerajewelKS | windows also has some built-in enhancements like noise cancelation and beam forming, which generally (AFAIK) the linux sound systems leave to client applications to implement themselves, though you could probably rig something up wich jack and a DAW like ardour, if you also enjoy killing flies with a sledgehammer |
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| 02:15.01 | SerajewelKS | but based on the problem description it's hard to tell what the issue could be |
| 02:16.19 | karlpinc | Deihmos: Nothing wrong with using non-debian software and debian as a platform. You just want to make sure that niether side steps on the other's toes: https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian#Some_safer_ways_to_install_software_not_available_in_Debian_Stable |
| 02:16.56 | karlpinc | Deihmos: This also, although some stuff may be dated: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianSoftware |
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| 02:25.26 | galaxie | What kind of diagnostics would I need? |
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| 02:25.53 | guoruei | Hi |
| 02:27.15 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: I see boost settings for internal and mic? |
| 02:27.45 | guoruei | I want to buy a graphics card,, |
| 02:27.46 | guoruei | What graphics cards does Debian support |
| 02:28.13 | well_laid_lawn | intel, amd, nvidia |
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| 02:28.54 | guoruei | I just do not want Go crazy for drive |
| 02:29.23 | guoruei | well_laid_lawn: ty |
| 02:29.26 | guoruei | I meet |
| 02:30.30 | guoruei | my set x370 - cpu 1500x - and I want a AMDGPU |
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| 02:31.47 | guoruei | and ... it can be run in debian well |
| 02:31.58 | galaxie | Where's these oss4 packages? |
| 02:32.24 | guoruei | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:32.38 | guoruei | pls |
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| 02:34.59 | galaxie | karlpinc: Everything else is in order, but I don't know any oss4 packages. apt-cache search shows only mpg123? Also, I don't see jack sense in alsamixer, do I see it somewhere else? |
| 02:36.03 | galaxie | karlpinc: Looks like it's not in Stretch repo even, so I'm good there? |
| 02:36.16 | guoruei | emmm |
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| 02:37.30 | galaxie | karlpinc: Actually, I was only searching for oss4 not oss. Let's see, oss-compat is the only one that might be related? |
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| 02:41.25 | karlpinc | galaxie: oss-compat says to use osspd. (I don't know much about sound.) |
| 02:42.12 | karlpinc | galaxie: You might look at wiki.debian.org for help with sound. |
| 02:42.31 | karlpinc | !tell galaxie about search |
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| 02:49.00 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: it's also possible that it's using the wrong mic source, if you have two |
| 02:49.39 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: You mean like arecord? |
| 02:49.56 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: arecord -l lists only one device |
| 02:49.58 | SerajewelKS | i mean you said you have an internal and external mic. those are probably two different input devices. |
| 02:50.10 | SerajewelKS | erm not devices. i forget the right word. |
| 02:50.18 | SerajewelKS | devices refers to sound cards |
| 02:50.20 | galaxie | Well, I don't have one plugged in now. |
| 02:50.34 | galaxie | So only internal mic to battle with. |
| 02:50.57 | SerajewelKS | ok. it should "just work" |
| 02:51.09 | SerajewelKS | if quality is bad then the mic is probably just very low quality (many internal mics are) |
| 02:51.14 | galaxie | Well, all I'm getting is static. |
| 02:51.28 | galaxie | If that were the case, then my external would be better quality?? |
| 02:51.41 | galaxie | It's just as staticy last I checked. |
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| 02:54.47 | SerajewelKS | could also be a bad driver. hard to tell. |
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| 02:55.26 | galaxie | How would I know which drivers to install? |
| 02:55.39 | SerajewelKS | there's likely only one |
| 02:55.54 | SerajewelKS | and you probably have it. most cards use fairly standard drivers at this point. or are compatible with them. |
| 02:56.04 | SerajewelKS | if you yell loudly does the static distort in any way? |
| 02:56.17 | SerajewelKS | it could be a bit depth or other sample format mismatch |
| 02:57.12 | karlpinc | Could the mic problem possibly be related to non-free firmware? |
| 02:57.36 | galaxie | My my, my voice is clear when I yell. |
| 02:57.43 | galaxie | Well, a little static, but I can hear myself. |
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| 02:59.16 | galaxie | I have to go to bed now, thanks for helping. |
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| 04:26.40 | pclover | so a random question... It appears fdisk supports gpt now? |
| 04:26.42 | pclover | if so it likely has for a long time |
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| 04:32.09 | dvs | pclover, support? Doesn't it just read the MBR part? |
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| 04:34.50 | well_laid_lawn | cfdisk works better apparently |
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| 04:36.03 | pclover | dvs, more reading it appears the version in debian 9 does not but newer versions do |
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| 05:40.17 | altker128 | Anyone played with Bottleneck Bandwidth congestion? https://dreamcreator108.com/dreams/debian-stretch-enable-bbr/ |
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| 06:23.59 | tehnull | anyone have any tips for getting gsync disabled on debian 9.7 with nvidia proprietary drivers? |
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| 06:25.19 | tehnull | Also can I use proprietary driver version 410.93 from nvidia or will it break things like steam? |
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| 07:22.04 | Rico | hello |
| 07:22.07 | Hypfer | so for reasons unknown to me right after systemd reloaded this morning, it stopped mosquitto |
| 07:22.19 | Hypfer | any pointers how to debug this? |
| 07:22.47 | Rico | I'm using serial console cable to connect to a switch (HP comware or cisco). I often have display bugs, using screen or minicom. carriage returns are not displayed |
| 07:23.02 | Rico | I'm using debian ç up to date from this morning |
| 07:23.05 | Rico | 9 |
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| 07:24.38 | Rico | and if I reboot the debian host , everything works fine for a couple hours/days |
| 07:25.10 | iovec | Hypfer: that shouldn't happen, can you give any more context? |
| 07:26.16 | Hypfer | iovec https://paste.debian.net/hidden/f7dc318a/ this is all I know atm |
| 07:28.21 | Hypfer | mosquitto was down btw, because it didn't wait for the shutdown to finish and the socket was in use afterwords |
| 07:28.29 | Hypfer | so the service was in state Active (exited) |
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| 07:28.41 | Hypfer | it basically just broke itself |
| 07:29.12 | jim | debhelper, botsnack |
| 07:29.13 | Hypfer | the host is running stretch with the latest updates |
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| 08:24.27 | t3st3r | Rico minicom is quite awful for serial consoles, it inclined on "modems" and does plenty of odd things if it isn't a case. Try e.g. picocom to see if that helps. |
| 08:26.25 | Rico | t3st3r: did not know picocom, I'll try it next time it happens, thankls |
| 08:27.46 | t3st3r | still some strange output can eventually confuse terminal I guess. In graphic desktop it helps to "reset terminal" (at least XFCE terminal provides this feature). |
| 08:29.23 | t3st3r | but my case assumes picocom in graphic terminal -> serial device, etc. Seems you have different case and it may have different pitfalls. |
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| 08:42.21 | wrksx | Hey there, I'm using vsftpd to serve some content over ftp, I'm reading the documentation about chroot it says "Warning: This option has security implications, especially if the users have upload permission, or shell access. Only enable if you know what you are doing". I actually have no idea what kind of implications they are refering to, so I'm thinking I don't know what I doing. I'm going to read about chroot a lot, but if |
| 08:42.21 | wrksx | someone could give me a pointer on what kind of security implication ftp+chroot has, I'd be grateful. |
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| 08:43.34 | willemb | Hi. Is there a poc available to test if cve-2019-6454 is exploitable on my system? |
| 08:43.41 | wrksx | I'm talking about the chroot_local_user setting of vsftpd, not 'manually' chrooting |
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| 08:45.55 | willemb | alternatively, do we know when it will be patched for jessie? |
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| 08:56.10 | abff | willemb what is that supposed to be? https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2019-6454 |
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| 09:18.01 | shtrb | how can I make fdisk / partetionmanager to see a usb disk on key full size ? (http://paste.debian.net/1068903/) tried to nuke the MBR, now fdisk the disk is 512 bytes |
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| 09:20.49 | altker128 | shtrb: Have you tried gparted? |
| 09:21.24 | shtrb | no, will do now. |
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| 09:22.48 | Greyztar | if i got state tracking with related,established then i dont need to open ports to be able to say browse through port 80 and so on,so to speak all traffick originating from the host im running that firewall rule on shoould be allowed? |
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| 09:23.54 | shtrb | gparted also fail |
| 09:24.22 | Joe_from_next_do | Hello, I see 'broadcom-sta-source' is used over 'broadcom-sta-dkms' in Ubuntu. Searching the internet, I don't find a difference, what would you all suggest I choose? |
| 09:24.53 | shtrb | source should genearate dkms (hopefully) |
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| 09:26.06 | Joe_from_next_do | shtrb: it seems to work that way on Ubuntu yes |
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| 09:31.46 | Joe_from_next_do | Finally the packages website works again. Was down all morning for me. It says the -source package can be used as alternative to -dkms in case of build problems with the latter. |
| 09:33.16 | altker128 | shtrb: What happens when you try to create the partition? |
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| 09:41.59 | shtrb | it allow creating a parttion of 512 bytes (fdisk) |
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| 10:04.08 | __m4ch1n3__ | how do i print full package description like in synaptic from cli? the description "apt-cache search" returns is not full |
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| 10:04.11 | __m4ch1n3__ | ? |
| 10:04.26 | shtrb | apt-cache show ? |
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| 10:05.02 | shtrb | __m4ch1n3__, apt-cache show is an option |
| 10:05.04 | __m4ch1n3__ | shtrb, thank you :3 |
| 10:05.10 | shtrb | np |
| 10:05.44 | shtrb | anyone else for the usb |
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| 10:15.32 | sk_tandt | Greetings! I'm trying to setup a minimal environment for a GTK3 app, and I've followed https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.customizing-graphical-interface.en.html |
| 10:16.00 | t3st3r | interestingly enough it seems CVE-2019-6454 mostly caused by moron D-BUS specifications. Pretty much in gmonish spirit... |
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| 10:16.35 | sk_tandt | Problem is, while nodm does autologin and startx, ctrl+alt+Fx doesn't open new shells |
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| 10:20.58 | t3st3r | shtrb> I guess kernel have not reread partition table after your dd, eh? |
| 10:21.29 | oiaohm | t3st3r: CVE-2019-6454 is also caused by having too much stuff in PID1. |
| 10:21.34 | shtrb | I tired sync, pluging the device out and in. |
| 10:21.52 | oiaohm | t3st3r: like really does unit file processing and dbus input filtering have to be done as PID1. |
| 10:21.54 | t3st3r | hmm if you tried replugging it more interesting. |
| 10:22.30 | shtrb | the only thing I didn't try is a reboot |
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| 10:23.01 | t3st3r | hmm reboot sounds extreme. Try different port maybe? |
| 10:23.23 | t3st3r | and maybe there was also some GPT remaining or so? |
| 10:23.26 | shtrb | even better, when I do dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sdb it will stop after the size that the fdisk report |
| 10:23.58 | shtrb | and also tried different ports |
| 10:23.58 | t3st3r | that sounds fishy... are you sure that flash stick is operational? |
| 10:24.09 | shtrb | it was operational before :) |
| 10:24.33 | shtrb | and the kernel does report the size correctly (fisk and others fail) |
| 10:24.47 | t3st3r | and what happens after writing to more than 512 bytes to /dev/sdb? oO |
| 10:25.07 | t3st3r | that thing does not even supposed to care of partition table :) |
| 10:25.11 | shtrb | fdisk say that how many bytes you have written that is the disk size |
| 10:25.22 | oiaohm | shtrb: please don't throw random at flash media the wearleveling may not like you. |
| 10:25.24 | __m4ch1n3__ | sk_tandt, startx would lauch X in current tty, dont run startx with sudo you can give executable as argument to startx "stertx /usr/bin/xterm" |
| 10:25.38 | shtrb | oiaohm, too late :D |
| 10:25.42 | __m4ch1n3__ | *startx /usr/bin/xterm |
| 10:25.54 | t3st3r | oiaohm> flash supposed to cope with it, at least once. |
| 10:26.07 | t3st3r | or a reasonable # of times |
| 10:26.33 | oiaohm | t3st3r: the answer is no. Some wear leveling in flash media depends on valid MBR being at start of disc. |
| 10:26.59 | oiaohm | t3st3r: make it invalid with /dev/urandom bricked. |
| 10:27.01 | t3st3r | oiaohm> as for systemd, well, systemd prepars arena for new process and shapes it as it meant to be. Who else supposed to parse units? |
| 10:27.02 | blackflow | what does wear leveling have to do with MBR? |
| 10:27.19 | blackflow | t3st3r: a privsep'd subprocess |
| 10:27.22 | oiaohm | blackflow: its just the way some flash firmware is coded. |
| 10:27.40 | t3st3r | oiaohm> that's verrry perverted wear leveling. Seems I'm lucky enough never facing one like that. |
| 10:27.45 | __m4ch1n3__ | sk_tandt, add this "systemd.unit=multi-user.target" as kernel boot option |
| 10:28.06 | t3st3r | if it true maybe shtrb needs to write back proper partition table sector :\ |
| 10:28.29 | iovec | blackflow: pfft now wouldn't you need a D-Bus interface for PID 1 and subprocess to talk, how is there any other way to pass state around? |
| 10:28.29 | shtrb | well feces |
| 10:28.34 | iovec | absurd |
| 10:28.36 | oiaohm | t3st3r: it was covered at one of the systemd conferences about doing privillages processes under PID1 for the processing. |
| 10:28.41 | t3st3r | <oiaohm> blackflow: its just the way some flash firmware is coded. <- I hope ppl would be kind enough to shot such coders on sight. |
| 10:29.08 | blackflow | oiaohm: any links to support that theory? I can't find any |
| 10:29.17 | blackflow | (then again I haven't yet had my morning coffee) |
| 10:29.59 | t3st3r | shtrb> did you have backup of that sector? |
| 10:30.03 | iovec | oiaohm: No, it was not with the intention to avoid parsing because it would be bad in a privileged context, David's talk happened because systemd blocked on reload too many units |
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| 10:30.24 | shtrb | nope :-( didn't expect to need it |
| 10:30.29 | blackflow | iovec: imagine the joke if they actually did? no, wait, don't, something tells me that'd be a fully acceptable and valid thing to do in its devs' mindset |
| 10:30.35 | iovec | they would never bother otherwise, and upstream has already found a solution: allow reloads for individual units |
| 10:30.39 | iovec | so poof |
| 10:30.51 | iovec | blackflow: it's hopeless |
| 10:30.53 | t3st3r | hmm then maybe you can try to recreate it using data about media size from messages you still have :\ |
| 10:30.55 | iovec | it's a dead end |
| 10:31.03 | iovec | also: you might want to try out s6 |
| 10:31.21 | iovec | (it's difficult to use it but atleast its sane: you don't get everything in life). |
| 10:31.23 | oiaohm | blackflow: I am trying to find the worst ones the worst one for USB flash drivers was not only that it had to have a MBR it had to be fat formated because the flash firmware was reading the fat file systems tables to work out what sectors could be reused. |
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| 10:31.45 | blackflow | nah. this is what, one pid-eins-critical-headshot bug in how many months/years? I've had machines hardcrash for a variety of other reasons in that time frame. |
| 10:31.47 | oiaohm | blackflow: flash firmware can be total evil. |
| 10:32.36 | iovec | blackflow: there have been *many* bugs that led ro pid 1 freezing, this is the first one with memory corruption, and this time it became big because kernel would panic. |
| 10:33.01 | blackflow | well, wouldn't surprise me. my USB sticks rarely last longer than a year, even the more expensive ones that are supposedly quality chipsets. |
| 10:33.02 | iovec | so it's making news, there are many on the bug tracker that were silently fixed, there was no visibility given to those |
| 10:33.15 | iovec | (and upstream is known to be hostile to anyone trying to report a CVE) |
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| 10:33.48 | t3st3r | <oiaohm> blackflow: flash firmware can be total evil. <- yes, they can. I eventually had funny clashes vs translation on SD card... |
| 10:33.51 | __m4ch1n3__ | sk_tandt, would install an window manager which can manage x-session to like obsession |
| 10:34.01 | iovec | there was one where plugging in a device at boot would make it assert, that was _fun_ to deal with. |
| 10:34.24 | blackflow | the CVE thingy... the fact that anyone can file for a CVE is a good thing. like, methinks that 0day bug would not have been fixed if RH did not press for a CVE. the GH issue is a sitcom. "blah blah CVE currency" .... "CVE issued" .... "grumble grumble *fixes it*" |
| 10:34.44 | oiaohm | iovec: I watched david talk he also mentioned it would also help with bad unit files so that the crash when processing unit files would not take the system with it. |
| 10:35.00 | t3st3r | <iovec> (it's difficult to use it <- then to the hell with it I guess. Who needs "solutions" that are "difficult to use"? |
| 10:35.33 | sk_tandt | __m4ch1n3__, doesn't xfwm4 do it? |
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| 10:35.45 | iovec | t3st3r: yes, it isn't meant for you then (also why people were using sysvinit when better things existed). anyhow, disregard. |
| 10:35.48 | t3st3r | At the end of day whole point of systemd has been to improve system management woes - and it managed to do it. |
| 10:35.56 | iovec | blackflow: no, Lennart had explicitly mentioned that he would not cooperate with those who report a CVE |
| 10:36.16 | blackflow | iovec: until his bosses politely cough from above. |
| 10:36.20 | t3st3r | iovec> I guess it really not meant for me. So it wouldn't e.g. supervise my programs properly. |
| 10:36.43 | blackflow | iovec: and so far from what I've seen, RH is serious about CVEs |
| 10:36.55 | oiaohm | IBM is even more so. |
| 10:37.10 | oiaohm | It going to fun to watch Lennart under the new management. |
| 10:37.13 | t3st3r | well, he dont have to cooperate with CVE reporters or something, he got facts to chew on. |
| 10:37.22 | blackflow | one of sitcoms on oss-seclists is flinging between RH and GKH about kernel upstream not having CVEs |
| 10:37.36 | iovec | blackflow: eg. https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/5998#issuecomment-303782334 |
| 10:38.06 | iovec | or https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5144#issuecomment-277319518 |
| 10:38.14 | oiaohm | t3st3r: IBM policy if the reporter is willing to work them they they cannot be turned down. So it going to be interesting to see how long until Lennart is pulled over the IBM mangement. |
| 10:38.17 | t3st3r | blackflow> linux kernel fixes plenty of things that may or may not be worth of CVEs. I guess merely trying to classify that would take hell a lot of time. |
| 10:38.20 | iovec | the passive aggressiveness is breathtaking... |
| 10:38.39 | blackflow | iovec: yea I've seen that one |
| 10:39.02 | t3st3r | oiaohm> IBM is cool, etc, but I'm not sure how far integration of RH/IBM is in effect and so on. |
| 10:39.24 | iovec | blackflow: or https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6632#issuecomment-446178604 |
| 10:39.30 | iovec | it's an endless stream |
| 10:39.32 | blackflow | t3st3r: maybe. problem is, they're not even trying beause of the "it's all bugs" mantra. I mean, yeah, not ALL things are CVE worthy and sometimes people exaggerate but just part of the same problem |
| 10:39.41 | t3st3r | <iovec> the passive aggressiveness is breathtaking... <- when half of "ancient unix admins" are barking, I guess it hard to stay nice person all the time... |
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| 10:40.36 | t3st3r | blackflow> interestingly I would agree it all bugs :). Vulns are merely special kind of bugs, as told by DJB who knows what he tells. |
| 10:40.45 | oiaohm | t3st3r: its going to take a few years before IBM management policies spread into RH. |
| 10:41.19 | iovec | t3st3r: that is a very narrow view, because in the last report nobody backported that PIDFile fix because CVE assignment was delayed |
| 10:41.21 | t3st3r | oiaohm> I've seen some large acquisions so I'm well aware policies do not reshape in a seconds. |
| 10:41.40 | blackflow | and linux is in serious trouble with "we don't break userspace" mantra. bugs cannot be fixed properly due to that. it's getting out of control. https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/2/14/921 |
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| 10:41.53 | iovec | it becomes much bigger than something about a person, you put all your users at risk |
| 10:42.10 | t3st3r | iovec> look, I've read CVE and after all my personal opinion is that it like 90% of FAIL on d-bus side, and 10% on systemd side. |
| 10:42.25 | t3st3r | Create moron specs - and implementing them going to be a bitch! |
| 10:42.35 | blackflow | I mean how hard is it to DOS the kernel development? find a bug that has been fixed, then lament on the mailing list that it broke your userspace. |
| 10:42.40 | iovec | t3st3r: doing so much in the context of PID 1 is the problem. |
| 10:42.46 | iovec | that's all, anyway, I'm out. |
| 10:43.59 | t3st3r | iovec> and not doing that much in context of PID 1 also been a problem, leading to inability to use plenty of OS features and do hell a lot of things, eventually reinvented by others in many places. |
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| 10:44.55 | oiaohm | blackflow: with the do not break userspace there are ways inside those Linux rules of fixing those faults. |
| 10:45.09 | t3st3r | and realistically, I think Linux lacks a neat, SMALL, sanely-designed IPC bus. Dbus is clearly not like that. |
| 10:45.20 | iovec | t3st3r: no, you don't have to do it in PID 1 at all, there are ways to create boundries, and separation of responsibility. |
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| 10:46.15 | iovec | you use a small PID 1, but launch your supervisor under it: you can make it as much of a kitchensink you want, but then if it crashes, all what happens is the little PID 1 restarts it, and all daemons running under it reparent to init |
| 10:46.19 | t3st3r | iovec> where're solutions doing so? Oh, it turns into designing space shuttle and everyone gives up, riding ancient shit instead or some half-assy "solutions" of hell knows what problems? |
| 10:46.29 | iovec | the kernel would not panic, nor would it invoke a killing spree. |
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| 10:46.49 | oiaohm | blackflow: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/syscalls.2.html the interfaces that are defective have to be deprecated for many years before being removed. |
| 10:47.13 | t3st3r | and all daemons running under it reparent to init <- cool, and what happens to e.g. watchdogging/process monitoring at this point? |
| 10:47.19 | oiaohm | blackflow: yes fixing some faults are harder with the Linux kernel policy but not impossible with 5 years time window. |
| 10:47.50 | iovec | t3st3r: it goes away, but the alternative of rooting supervisor in PID 1 means a kernel panic: such a fallback is certainly more graceful. |
| 10:47.55 | t3st3r | so it seems "small" pid 1 wouldn't be so small and have to suck in plenty of features... or fail rather critical aspects. Or not provide it. |
| 10:48.11 | t3st3r | iovec> t3st3r: it goes away <- in this case its EPIC FAIL SHIT. |
| 10:48.39 | t3st3r | Who the hell needs watchdog that does not fires? |
| 10:48.43 | iovec | yeah, a kernel oops is certainly much better? |
| 10:48.46 | blackflow | oiaohm: what the linux kernel needs is a new, full cleanup branch that breaks all promises to the past. |
| 10:48.46 | iovec | keep pulling strawman arguments! |
| 10:49.23 | t3st3r | iovec> hum.... FYI, where it a big deal, my kernels would reboot on this, for example. Running with potentially damaged kernel is a bitch. |
| 10:49.40 | t3st3r | and can cause unknown amount of mischief and data corruption |
| 10:49.42 | iovec | t3st3r: it's fine |
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| 10:49.47 | oiaohm | blackflow: really you just cannot do that and get kernels updated by distributions and vendors. |
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| 10:50.26 | blackflow | oiaohm: new branch does not imply dropping support for existing branches |
| 10:50.54 | t3st3r | and systemd at least attempts to seriously plug into even use cases like this. Other not even dared to try - pretending use cases beyond ancient unix do not exist. |
| 10:51.02 | t3st3r | Which is glaringly untrue these days. |
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| 10:51.18 | iovec | we are indeed reaping the benefits today. |
| 10:51.48 | oiaohm | blackflow: bad news here distributions wish to backport patches to older kernels. |
| 10:52.03 | oiaohm | blackflow: so newer kernel at least for a while has to contain the stuff for backporting. |
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| 10:52.28 | oiaohm | blackflow: the Linux kernel workflow is the way it is because without it you have pitchforks after you. |
| 10:52.36 | blackflow | oiaohm: no. separate branch. no need to care about other branches at all. |
| 10:52.49 | blackflow | other branches can get updated separately |
| 10:52.54 | t3st3r | iovec> yes... this world choosen to be complicated. So these traffic lights near me are running Linux. And it would suck a lot if their management process watchdogging fells apart. |
| 10:53.06 | oiaohm | blackflow: if it not being used by the distributions it not going to get the full CI support. |
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| 10:53.47 | oiaohm | blackflow: you can build a kernel with deprcated features removed now. |
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| 10:54.21 | t3st3r | <oiaohm> blackflow: bad news here distributions wish to backport patches to older kernels. <- this alone on its own is a big source of security issues. |
| 10:54.25 | oiaohm | blackflow: yes some bad API/ABI in the Linux kernel do need to be marked with deprecated sooner. |
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| 10:54.59 | t3st3r | there was number of cases where RH custom kernels were plagued by bugs fixed long ago by upstream. Vulns included. |
| 10:55.28 | oiaohm | Exactly and trying to get distribution to use newer kernel is not going to happen if the newer kernel does not have backward compadiblity. |
| 10:55.36 | t3st3r | so this world isn't perfect and those who thinks systemd is bit and does a lot of things surely never read Linux kernel source... |
| 10:55.44 | oiaohm | Yes the curse of backwards compadiblity. |
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| 10:56.54 | t3st3r | furthermore internal Linux kernel design was never targeting high security or tooling to do that. And we are reaping fruits from that, |
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| 10:57.46 | shtrb | let reboot that systemd feces piece of firmware:D |
| 10:57.51 | oiaohm | t3st3r: true the Linux kernel does a lot but we are starting to see with bpfilter and other usermode helpers and NUMA to reduce how much Linux kernel is doing in single address space. |
| 10:57.53 | t3st3r | Say namespaces are quite bugged and below of what it really meant to be. But to get it right that should be in place from very design phase and earlyest coding. |
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| 10:58.42 | t3st3r | oiaohm> BPF alone is a problem when it comes to security. It allows USERS to load date KERNEL SIDE. Now just one extra step to goofy that kernel, and... |
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| 11:00.40 | oiaohm | t3st3r: bpf recently has got NUMA node support. |
| 11:01.00 | t3st3r | And so? |
| 11:01.10 | oiaohm | t3st3r: so even that it kernel side it does not have to have complete kernel space address/memory access. |
| 11:01.20 | dzove855 | /12/read |
| 11:01.25 | dzove855 | oups sorry guys |
| 11:01.37 | oiaohm | t3st3r: heck it does not have to have complete device access. |
| 11:01.42 | t3st3r | do you mean it would cause truckload of new unknown security implications? |
| 11:02.13 | t3st3r | CPUs do not generally have efficient tools to sandbox kernel-side out of itself. |
| 11:02.15 | oiaohm | t3st3r: bpf under NUMA protections is limtied on the number of security flaws it can cause. |
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| 11:02.53 | t3st3r | and all this NUMA is kinda HW and arch specific thing as far as I understand. Assuming every system is MUMA is... ahem. |
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| 11:03.47 | oiaohm | It is depending on the MMU. |
| 11:03.53 | t3st3r | Linux eventually ran even on strange things almost lacking MMU. Say there is STM32 port. At most OS can defend self vs processes using simplified MPU but that's realistically all. |
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| 11:04.36 | oiaohm | Please not some of the simple processes that Linux supports really don't have a proper split between ring 0 and ring 3 either. |
| 11:04.42 | oiaohm | not/note |
| 11:05.01 | t3st3r | and I do not really think hardwiring assumptions on how mm/paging/privs happen is anyhow cool idea when it comes to linux. |
| 11:05.07 | oiaohm | when you get into MPU you can have some horrible security problems where userspace to kernel space is more a promise. |
| 11:05.18 | oiaohm | Not hardware enforced. |
| 11:05.46 | oiaohm | Some platforms bpf and userspace are not safe. |
| 11:06.05 | t3st3r | oiaohm> I know. Furthermore, "ring 0" and "ring 3" terms imply its x86. Other CPUs have different names of these features. They not even necessarily map 1 to 1 to x86 notions. |
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| 11:06.42 | oiaohm | t3st3r: I am talking about where those features don't in fact exist as hardware seperation in some cpu Linux supports. |
| 11:06.56 | oiaohm | mmu less supports some really horrible things. |
| 11:07.03 | t3st3r | <oiaohm> Not hardware enforced. <- sometimes it actually is. Even with mpu. However MPU just lacks enough entries to separate all processes :) |
| 11:07.35 | oiaohm | So with protections you need the right hardware. |
| 11:07.52 | oiaohm | Good NUMA brings a lot of protections into what we call ring 0 on x86. |
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| 11:08.13 | oiaohm | Linux at this stage has not been using all those features effectively everywhere. |
| 11:08.35 | t3st3r | NUMA is way too HW/arch specific to my taste. And I do like Linux because it cross platform thing. |
| 11:08.53 | t3st3r | I do not think I would ever use Linux if it would be x86-only. |
| 11:09.07 | oiaohm | With hyperthreading and meltdown and spectra is causing a close look at how the Linux kernel allocates page table and shedulers stuff. |
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| 11:10.00 | __m4ch1n3__ | oh, so meltdown and spectre are multitthreading bugs? |
| 11:10.12 | __m4ch1n3__ | *hyper |
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| 11:10.32 | oiaohm | NUMA=non-uniform memory access This is basic term. Key point is the means to assign different memory areas to different cpu cores. |
| 11:10.52 | blackflow | __m4ch1n3__: not per se |
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| 11:11.13 | oiaohm | __m4ch1n3__: they are not hyper threading bugs they are cpu prectitive branching bugs. Probing that running on the same core helps. |
| 11:11.34 | t3st3r | oiaohm> and it implies HW can afford it. If it not... do they leave defenceless? Sounds like bad idea. Promoting certain arch and its features arch over others. |
| 11:12.15 | oiaohm | __m4ch1n3__: so how you allocate your cores and memory does effect how well those attacks can work. |
| 11:12.19 | t3st3r | __m4ch1n3__> on very generic level, CPUs attempt to execute several cases of code at once in hope to pick up right one regardless of branch taken. |
| 11:12.54 | t3st3r | This called "speculative execution" and boasted by many different CPUs that are powerful enough. |
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| 11:13.34 | oiaohm | t3st3r: It always been the way. You can get risc-v and mips 32 and 64 bit with no idea of userspace and kernel space becaus it will save some silcon being single address space basically full blow mmu less. |
| 11:13.42 | t3st3r | Idea was that effects of losing branch and other stuff like that are completely undone and CPU pretends it never happened. Ironically it proven to be wrong assumption. |
| 11:14.54 | oiaohm | t3st3r: its like the nx flag not all x86 processors back in history support that and not all new processors support it either. |
| 11:14.56 | t3st3r | oiaohm> I guess these are kinda extreme cases. Even STM32 (with official Linux port) does have some separation. That is - exception handlers and related things are more privileged than bulk code. |
| 11:15.22 | t3st3r | And so there're SW fallbacks when CPU lacks HW NX flags as long as I remember. |
| 11:15.47 | oiaohm | t3st3r: but all those software attempt to fix nx flags had flaws. |
| 11:15.57 | oiaohm | t3st3r: to fix lack of nx flags. |
| 11:16.27 | t3st3r | imperfect solution is better than no solution at all - and it would be bad if things only improve on few new cpus and nowhere else. |
| 11:16.32 | oiaohm | Security is a mixture of hardware and software. So much has to be provided by the hardware . |
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| 11:17.17 | t3st3r | It is. And hardware is a major problem in this regard. It huge, complicated, all about speed ... and very fragile as the result. |
| 11:17.49 | oiaohm | There is a big problem is that what inside the hardware we have not been able to audit. |
| 11:17.51 | *** join/#debian wyoung (~wyoung@wesleyy.com) |
| 11:17.53 | wyoung | hi |
| 11:18.00 | wyoung | Is there an issue with the samba package? |
| 11:18.04 | t3st3r | So that small dumb cpu barely securing kernel from the rest could prove more secured that all that x86 crap, running DMA capable ME firmware side-by-side with all that Linux. |
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| 11:19.14 | t3st3r | Say BPF wouldn't save one from DMA write coming out of ME. Not a chance. |
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| 11:20.17 | shtrb | wyoung, it could be if you would tell us more |
| 11:21.22 | wyoung | shtrb: http://dpaste.com/2W77BGG |
| 11:21.39 | shtrb | rebooting , gave me back my old parttion back. I'm crying Sandisk is a piece of an systemd hardware |
| 11:23.11 | t3st3r | shtrb> still I have idea you've got your partition table cached. Fdisk does smth special to force re-reading it. |
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| 11:23.21 | wyoung | shtrb: http://dpaste.com/3SXVDC0 |
| 11:23.52 | t3st3r | but it only does so when it writes new partition table |
| 11:23.53 | shtrb | t3st3r, you mean does not do a special thing |
| 11:24.48 | k-man | how can i have 2 virtual x sessions running simultaneously? so i could switch between them with ctrl+alt+f1 and f2 for example? |
| 11:24.49 | t3st3r | when it writes partition table it explicitly forces kernel to re-read it, so that particular fun does not happens. |
| 11:26.29 | shtrb | t3st3r, but I replugged the device |
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| 11:27.38 | jim | k-man, you would start another x server |
| 11:27.44 | t3st3r | shtrb> not sure if that enough, kernel could spot it same device. Not sure about that though, but that's why I asked about different port. |
| 11:27.54 | k-man | jim, yes that's exactly what I want to do |
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| 11:28.52 | jim | well you can start an empty one, specifying which vt and which DISPLAY value |
| 11:29.21 | jim | I think also, startx has syntax for specifying those two things |
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| 11:29.55 | k-man | i thought there was a way to get gdm to be on 2 virtual consoles(?) |
| 11:30.36 | jim | for that, you'd contact the gdm when you start the x server |
| 11:30.47 | jim | using the XDMCP protocol |
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| 11:31.20 | shtrb | is XDMCP really still supported by any modern DM ? |
| 11:31.29 | shtrb | (sddm/gdm ... etc) |
| 11:31.44 | jim | you might have to alter the configuration of the gdm so it will start listening on the net |
| 11:32.33 | jim | shtrb, why, did someone decide xdmcp is yesterday's petunias? |
| 11:32.49 | k-man | on the network? |
| 11:33.03 | shtrb | jim, because sddm doesn't have it implemented :-( |
| 11:33.12 | jim | hmm |
| 11:33.17 | jim | I didn't know that |
| 11:33.19 | k-man | no i meant have it on the virtual consoles? like when you pres ctrl+alt+f1 or ctrl+alt+f2 |
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| 11:33.37 | shtrb | I'm still waiting for them to let that implemented (because that feature is very useful) |
| 11:33.39 | jim | is it a matter of loading a module, or a compilation option? |
| 11:34.21 | shtrb | adding the code into sddm , then compiling |
| 11:34.30 | k-man | this seems promising |
| 11:34.32 | k-man | startx /usr/bin/gdm -- :2 |
| 11:34.50 | jim | shtrb, so it's literally not present? |
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| 11:35.21 | shtrb | according to the bug reports |
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| 11:36.56 | jim | k-man, I forget the exact details... but you have to first get your gdm to start listening, otherwise it ignores it |
| 11:37.36 | jim | actually I don't know that I ever did this with gdm |
| 11:37.48 | jim | but we can still try |
| 11:38.17 | jim | k-man, start by reading man X |
| 11:38.25 | k-man | ok |
| 11:38.26 | jim | to get the basics |
| 11:38.59 | jim | k-man, X is client/server... and it's a bit strange what thing is the clients and what thing is the server |
| 11:39.39 | k-man | jim, good point |
| 11:40.05 | k-man | so startx -- :2 starts a new x on ctrl+alt+f8 |
| 11:40.16 | k-man | but if I try and launch gdm, it doesn't work |
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| 11:51.08 | jim | k-man, you have to contact the gdm over the net |
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| 11:51.30 | jim | and you might have to enable that in gdm's config |
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| 11:53.53 | k-man | ah, i've at least found a workable solution. i can just log into another text vc, and run startx |
| 11:53.58 | k-man | that puts x on that vc |
| 11:54.07 | k-man | that's good enough for my needs |
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| 11:56.22 | t3st3r | as for poettering, CVE and cooperation... https://seclists.org/oss-sec/2019/q1/140 somehow provides very different idea :) |
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| 12:04.14 | blackflow | t3st3r: well yeah, it's my observation that he actually hates frivolous CVE assignments. he calls that "CVE currency" |
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| 12:04.49 | oh2eko | Hello how do i check what wifi card is installed on a livedvd debian? lspci does not exist it seems |
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| 12:05.15 | wyoung | oh2eko: /sbin/lspci ? |
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| 12:06.57 | oh2eko | wyoung not there |
| 12:07.35 | wyoung | /usr/sbin/lspci? |
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| 12:08.12 | wyoung | sudo apt-get install pciutils |
| 12:08.33 | oh2eko | cant without the wifi driver |
| 12:09.00 | Fox | oh2eko: what does 'which lspci' say ? |
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| 12:09.09 | wyoung | oh2eko: plug in a DVD player |
| 12:09.15 | oh2eko | command not found |
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| 12:13.12 | AppAraat | hello, according to https://keyring.debian.org/ I can search for keys here: https://db.debian.org/search.cgi - and I went searching for keys listed here: https://www.debian.org/CD/verify - but I couldn't find anything when I searched for 64E6EA7D or 1046 0DAD 7616 5AD8 1FBC 0CE9 9880 21A9 64E6 EA7D |
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| 12:13.28 | AppAraat | when I ticked the fuzzy search option it returned 676 results. |
| 12:13.43 | AppAraat | are those keys still valid? |
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| 12:15.19 | de-facto | when i do "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc" can i have it autogenerate the package_1.2.3.orig.tar.xz ? |
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| 12:17.16 | de-facto | the sources come from a git repo with a "debian" folder at its root |
| 12:17.18 | wyoung | gg nn |
| 12:17.29 | wyoung | When is Debian going to release next? |
| 12:17.41 | wyoung | Sometime in the next 5 years or so? |
| 12:19.00 | themill | AppAraat: role keys may well not be in the database like that |
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| 12:21.46 | Ede|Popede | wyoung > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBuster |
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| 12:22.29 | wyoung | 5 year turn over hey |
| 12:23.26 | AppAraat | themill: hmm, perhaps a good idea to add that in the documentation? Also I didn't know I could gpg --recv-keys "DF9B 9C49 EAA9 2984 3258 9D76 DA87 E80D 6294 BE9B" "F41D 3034 2F35 4669 5F65 C669 4246 8F40 09EA 8AC3" - perhaps a good idea to add that in the docs as well. |
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| 12:23.37 | blackflow | wyoung: uh what? Stretch was released two years ago, Buster is expected this year, so .... 2-ish? |
| 12:24.23 | themill | AppAraat: that is quite literally in the document you linked to |
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| 12:26.03 | AppAraat | themill: which one? I only say this format: gpg --keyserver keyring.debian.org --recv-keys 0x673A03E4C1DB921F - which is documented on https://keyring.debian.org/ |
| 12:27.14 | themill | What's missing? |
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| 12:28.08 | themill | https://www.debian.org/CD/verify tells you which keys you need and https://keyring.debian.org/ tells you how you can get them. (And if you already have Debian or a derivative then you can get them from the debian-keyring package) |
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| 12:30.05 | AppAraat | the format listed in the example is a long format, which is not present in https://www.debian.org/CD/verify - adding short format GPG keys is possible but from what I've heard it should be heavily discouraged. |
| 12:30.34 | AppAraat | IMO the goal is to make gpg signing / verification easier |
| 12:31.31 | xand | latest gpg uses the full fingerprints |
| 12:32.04 | jelly | (insert standard gpg user interface usability rant) |
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| 12:32.46 | t3st3r | there is apt-key to make it more sane, no? |
| 12:32.52 | jelly | however, ubuntu's instructions are nicer ven if they still use the same tools by necessity |
| 12:33.08 | jelly | t3st3r: apt-key is not useful for iso image verification |
| 12:33.21 | t3st3r | ahh iso images... |
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| 12:37.08 | de-facto | Do you guys know which toolchain is used for crosscompiling the armhf repos? |
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| 12:37.37 | jelly | debian does not crosscompile stuff that goes into repos, de-facto, it's all natively built |
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| 12:38.08 | de-facto | you mean armhf is build actually on an arm cpu? |
| 12:38.16 | de-facto | the whole thing? |
| 12:38.23 | jelly | and armel and aarm64, yes |
| 12:38.28 | AppAraat | jelly: one downside is that ubuntu offers checksums and gpg keys on their own site over the clear. This reminds me, I should go tell this to #ubuntu-hardened people. |
| 12:38.33 | de-facto | wow doesnt that take ages? |
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| 12:39.47 | jelly | de-facto: I guess there's a decent number of build machines |
| 12:39.54 | de-facto | jelly, background of my question: i want to autobuild a deb for raspberry pi on my docker based ci/cd system, do you know of any good toolchain for this? |
| 12:40.09 | de-facto | the host is amd64 |
| 12:41.59 | themill | You might want to be clear about whether this is for Debian or Raspbian. |
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| 12:43.00 | de-facto | right now i am using raspbian on my pi, but i guess it would be a good idea to just use standard debian builds |
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| 12:59.13 | de-facto | can i do that with multiarch dpkg-buildpackage? |
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| 13:07.09 | de-facto | Can I just do "sudo dpkg --add-architecture armhf" and "sudo apt update" then "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -b --host-arch armhf" ? |
| 13:07.16 | de-facto | where does it get its toolchain from? |
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| 13:13.33 | muhaha | Can anyone help me with flatpak and debian stretch ? I have server edition. I did: apt install -y --no-install-recommends lightdm flatpak xorg If I run export DISPLAY=:0 ; flatpak run tv.kodi.Kodi its says Invalid MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 keyxcb_connection_has_error() returned true |
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| 13:13.39 | muhaha | Its related to x11 auth |
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| 13:14.25 | de-facto | Can i crosscompile (e.g. dpkg-buildpackage) for official debian stretch armhf with multiarch from amd64? |
| 13:15.26 | themill | de-facto: the current state of the art is on the wiki. Note that if you're building packages for raspbian then this is probably not the way to do it |
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| 13:16.49 | toruvinn | actually i probably should've asked here first. does anyone remember that one step im missing from making fcitx/mozc work in my vivaldi (or chrome or whatever, probably) |
| 13:16.53 | toruvinn | seems to work everywhere else so far |
| 13:18.10 | de-facto | themill do you have a link for how to setup this when i target official armhf stretch .deb builds on amd64? |
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| 13:18.23 | karlpinc | muhaha: Are you running flatpak as root? |
| 13:18.29 | de-facto | i tried to setup multiarch and get "arm-linux-gnueabihf-objcopy" missing |
| 13:18.37 | muhaha | karlpinc: yes |
| 13:18.44 | karlpinc | muhaha: See also: https://wiki.debian.org/FlatpakHowto |
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| 13:19.00 | karlpinc | muhaha: Root should not have access to X. |
| 13:19.30 | karlpinc | muhaha: Can you run it as your user? |
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| 13:20.06 | toruvinn | come on, let him run X as root. people need other-peoples-PCs to run their blockchain miners. ;-> |
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| 13:20.34 | muhaha | :) |
| 13:20.43 | muhaha | I am just trying if its even possible |
| 13:21.24 | de-facto | do i need "apt-get install crossbuild-essential-armhf" for this? |
| 13:21.36 | themill | de-facto: btw you keep using words like "official" in ways I don't understand. |
| 13:21.37 | themill | https://wiki.debian.org/CrossCompiling |
| 13:25.00 | de-facto | yes i am reading this already, looks like awesome stuff |
| 13:25.31 | de-facto | I just want to stick with "official" debian way of doing it |
| 13:25.51 | de-facto | OMG i think it worked :D |
| 13:26.07 | de-facto | this is really awesome, i didnt thought it would be that easy |
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| 13:28.03 | themill | de-facto: there isn't really an official way of doing it as debian doesn't do this at all. This is a commonly used and reliable method, however. |
| 13:28.36 | de-facto | this is super nice with multiarch, i thought i had to build a crosstoolchain for hours... |
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| 13:33.50 | muhaha | karlpinc I did https://pastebin.com/GcPp2drE and I am getting now No protocol specified xcb_connection_has_error() returned true ... I guess that kodi user should be in audio,video groups |
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| 13:36.14 | muhaha | toruvinn Even on Kubuntu Xorg is running under root (root 1720 1666 7 09:21 tty1 00:22:40 /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg -nolisten tcp -auth /var/run/sddm/{40907cf3-1f1b-4867-8e51-7805383204e8} -background none -noreset -displayfd 18 -seat seat0 vt1) |
| 13:36.25 | muhaha | So whats wrong ? |
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| 13:44.36 | blackflow | I swear that xorg runs as root one boot, then as unpriv user the other.... |
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| 13:52.39 | muhaha | but these guys: <toruvinn> come on, let him run X as root. people need other-peoples-PCs to run their blockchain miners. ;-> |
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| 13:53.42 | blackflow | they meant running x11 applications as root |
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| 13:54.26 | blackflow | Xorg-server has been running as root since day one, until recent crop of DMs is now capable of running it unprivileged |
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| 13:55.56 | muhaha | xhost +si:localuser:kodi this should do the trick for me, right? |
| 13:56.20 | blackflow | I don't know what the problem is there |
| 13:56.49 | Kamiccolo | is there an easy way to add an USB quirk for the device which does not report the state properly? host-powered -> self-powered |
| 13:58.11 | muhaha | blackflow: I did https://pastebin.com/GcPp2drE and I am getting now No protocol specified xcb_connection_has_error() returned true ... I guess that kodi user also should be in audio,video groups |
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| 13:59.39 | blackflow | muhaha: that should've been solved by the DM. if not, then definitely, audio+video+input but eh... with a big warning sign above thatt |
| 14:00.12 | blackflow | (in which it is explained that any user in the group, or any process by that user, can read input/output of any other) |
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| 14:01.22 | muhaha | But what should I do? I want to run Kodi. Kodi needs these groups... |
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| 14:02.02 | blackflow | muhaha: well is that a regular desktop installation? |
| 14:02.37 | blackflow | you mentioned flatpak, not sure if here on #ubuntu-server, so what exactly is the installation you're running there? |
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| 14:04.27 | muhaha | ubuntu:bionic + https://pastebin.com/GcPp2drE just this... its not problem that I can solve in #flatpak |
| 14:04.58 | de-facto | Can i replace all "stretch" in my /etc/apt/sources.list with "stable"? https://pastebin.com/Cyys58bE |
| 14:05.14 | jelly | de-facto: that is a very bad idea, don't do it |
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| 14:05.28 | de-facto | jelly, why? |
| 14:06.05 | jelly | because your system will break horribly when debian 10 becomes "stable" |
| 14:06.27 | jelly | and you or unattended-uppgrades try to install or upgrade anything |
| 14:06.51 | de-facto | its in a Dockerfile FROM: debian:stable-slim |
| 14:07.06 | de-facto | i want to be independend of releases with all statements in there |
| 14:07.11 | petn-randall | Interesting. Still a bad idea, though. |
| 14:07.38 | de-facto | why bad idea? just want to understand... |
| 14:08.12 | petn-randall | ,v apache2 |
| 14:08.13 | judd | Package: apache2 on amd64 -- wheezy: 2.2.22-13+deb7u6; wheezy-security: 2.2.22-13+deb7u13; jessie: 2.4.10-10+deb8u12; jessie-security: 2.4.10-10+deb8u12; stretch-security: 2.4.25-3+deb9u4; stretch: 2.4.25-3+deb9u6; sid: 2.4.37-1; buster: 2.4.38-2 |
| 14:08.45 | de-facto | if a new release comes out i just do "docker build ." and should be fine right? |
| 14:08.49 | *** join/#debian FredoF (~FredoF@37.0.35.22) |
| 14:08.58 | petn-randall | ,v nginx |
| 14:08.59 | judd | Package: nginx on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4; wheezy-security: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4+deb7u1; jessie: 1.6.2-5+deb8u5; sid: 1.10.1-1; jessie-backports: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1~bpo8+2; stretch: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-security: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-backports: 1.13.3-1~bpo9+1; stretch-backports: 1.14.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-backports: 1.14.1-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1.14.2-2; sid: |
| 14:09.00 | judd | 1.14.2-2 |
| 14:09.19 | jelly | de-facto: if you don't upgrade anything inside that container, ever, you don't need a sources.list at all |
| 14:09.20 | de-facto | petn-randall, what are you trying to say? |
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| 14:09.48 | de-facto | jelly, i wont upgrade stuff but i will prepare a build env so i need apt-get install |
| 14:09.58 | petn-randall | de-facto: you run 'apt-get install nginx' now, and you'll get 1.10.3. If you have "stretch" in your sources.list, you'll still get it in 6 months from now. If you have "stable" there, you'll get 1.14.2, or maybe something newer. You won't be in control of what happens there. |
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| 14:10.43 | petn-randall | de-facto: Worse, you'll have drifting state, since you'll have a stretch base OS, but parts of buster installed on it. That's not an approach if you want to do anything serious with it. |
| 14:10.46 | blackflow | muhaha: I'm sorry, I have no idea what kind of isolation issues flatpak poses there, I know it has these "portals" for apps to use system resources, 'sall |
| 14:10.46 | de-facto | i always want the newest release which corresponds to the docker image debain:stable-slim |
| 14:11.02 | petn-randall | de-facto: Then explicitely list it. |
| 14:11.17 | Ede|Popede | oh come on, that's ridiculous. upgrading libreoffice nearly killed my machine? irc gone, no reaction at all for some time, after finally switching to tty i could start htop there. not even there it could be updated while scrolling. and now i have hundreds if not thousands of `^[[C` in the term.log. |
| 14:11.19 | petn-randall | de-facto: You'll have to fix tons of stuff when you move from stretch to buster, anyway. |
| 14:11.28 | de-facto | but then i would have to change Dockefile everytime |
| 14:11.47 | petn-randall | de-facto: "everytime" being every two years, maximum. |
| 14:11.52 | hays | I am having a problem installing redis, dpkg-configure is failing to complete |
| 14:12.06 | petn-randall | de-facto: I'm not forcing you to do it, you can keep it on "stable" and learn from the experience. |
| 14:12.42 | blackflow | de-facto: you'd still have to regularly update your docker images, so what's the problem? |
| 14:13.03 | blackflow | hays: failing how |
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| 14:13.26 | hays | blackflow: a timeout was exceeded? |
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| 14:13.50 | de-facto | It will be build FROM: debian:stable-slim image everytime with apt-get {BUILDDEPS} so if debian:stable-slim switches to buster i want it to pull in the buster stuff with apt-get without me changing Dockerfile (where i write sources.list) |
| 14:13.51 | hays | https://bpaste.net/show/c3dcc5044b68 |
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| 14:14.30 | de-facto | if i miss the release i would end up with a buster system pulling in stretch stuff wich i dont want |
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| 14:14.41 | petn-randall | de-facto: Yes, but what do you want to do with it during and after build? I'm 100% sure that'll depend on versions. |
| 14:14.41 | blackflow | hays: "journalctl -xe" for details |
| 14:14.53 | blackflow | hays: also redis' own logs if any |
| 14:14.55 | petn-randall | de-facto: That's not how it works. |
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| 14:15.31 | hays | blackflow: let me see if i have that in backscroll. I didn't see anything.. funny thing is redis is starting |
| 14:15.58 | de-facto | petn-randall, it will be pushed to my docker registry and pulled by my build system for doing stuff like "make" "dpkg-buildpackage" et al |
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| 14:16.22 | blackflow | hays: logfile /var/log/redis/redis-server.log |
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| 14:16.58 | petn-randall | de-facto: Right. And you're 100% sure whatever you're building does not depend on the versions installed? |
| 14:17.12 | petn-randall | You don't target "stable", you target a release. |
| 14:17.55 | de-facto | hmmm well you might have a point there |
| 14:18.26 | de-facto | i would have to update to latest anyhow, but yeah probably should be done manually... |
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| 14:18.52 | jelly | petn-randall: honestly I distrust vendors that tell us their $fairly_complex_system works on (any) Debian 9 |
| 14:19.17 | jelly | because they tested it 5 days ago, and Debian 9 changed in the meantime |
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| 14:20.08 | jelly | grml.org does the right thing with their builds, they pull and set up sources.list to a specific day in snapshot.d.o |
| 14:20.39 | de-facto | so i put in a variable in the Dockerfile which would have to be changed from stretch to buster manually |
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| 14:20.44 | petn-randall | jelly: Well, but the change from 9.0 to 9.8 is a smaller delta than from 9.0 to 10.0. |
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| 14:29.00 | hays | blackflow: im trying a reboot, ill check that in a sec |
| 14:29.13 | hays | but by all accounts redis seems to be starting. but ill verify |
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| 14:30.46 | hays | blackflow: yeah redis is running looks perfectly normal i think |
| 14:31.04 | hays | ready to accept connections |
| 14:31.06 | *** join/#debian hans_ (~hans@77.16.57.124.tmi.telenormobil.no) |
| 14:31.10 | hays | yet systemd is getting a timeout |
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| 14:31.38 | hays | also, no pid file is being created |
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| 14:31.46 | petn-randall | !enter |
| 14:31.46 | hays | at least not in /var/run/redis/ |
| 14:31.46 | dpkg | The enter key is not a substitute for punctuation. Hitting enter unnecessarily makes it difficult to follow what you are saying. Consider using ',', '. ', ';', '...', '---', or ':' instead. If you hit enter too often, you will be autokicked by debhelper for flooding the channel. |
| 14:32.51 | blackflow | hays: I wonder if it's a race condition that plagued nginx. I see it installs and works fine in buster. If I used redis, I'd totally change that systemd unit for a Type=simple service, rather than forking. not sure why it's forcing forking |
| 14:33.22 | petn-randall | hays: Is this redis from stretch or stretch-backports? |
| 14:33.49 | hays | Neither works. I've done most troubleshooting on the backports version |
| 14:34.05 | *** join/#debian ntz (~dpecka@opensuse/member/dpecka) |
| 14:34.07 | ntz | hello |
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| 14:34.19 | petn-randall | I don't believe going back and forth would work. Once you have the backports version, you probably can't downgrade. |
| 14:34.21 | hays | I hesitate to amend my statement. But I'll just say that both are failing in similar ways |
| 14:34.21 | blackflow | hays: oh waitasecond I see it in buster too: redis-server.service: Can't open PID file /run/redis/redis-server.pid (yet?) after start: No such file or directory (but installation did not complain) |
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| 14:34.44 | hays | gotta step away for a sec |
| 14:34.52 | petn-randall | hays: Which one is the error from, though? |
| 14:34.55 | ntz | by a chance, there ain't a way to sort top in -bn1 mode ? eg aka `top -bn1 -o %MEM' later on ... I have this one: http://susepaste.org/view/raw/17877417 |
| 14:35.30 | petn-randall | ntz: wheezy has been out of support for years now. |
| 14:35.34 | petn-randall | !wheezy |
| 14:35.35 | dpkg | Wheezy is the current <oldoldstable> release, Debian 7, released on 2013-05-04: https://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504 ; security support ended on 2016-04-25. Wheezy is the rubber toy penguin with a red bow tie. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWheezy and ask me about <install wheezy> <wheezy release notes> <wheezy->jessie>. Final update <7.11>. Consider upgrading. |
| 14:35.54 | petn-randall | Well, 3 years to be exact. |
| 14:36.04 | ntz | petn-randall: not my choice, please ignore that's wheezy |
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| 14:36.58 | blackflow | hays: I'd change the default systemd unit to start the service as a Type=simple. the config file supports systemd with "supervised" option, explained in the conf |
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| 14:37.20 | blackflow | there's definitely a race condition. every time it starts, it logs inability to find the pidfile. |
| 14:38.01 | AppAraat | hi, I flashed debian-9.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso onto an USB stick, then booted from it and installed the system onto another USB stick. Then tried to boot from that USB stick but that failed: https://youtu.be/JLZx6Df7rqE - what might be going on? initramfs not loading? |
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| 14:38.40 | AppAraat | this is on a Thinkpad x230 (so should be pretty well supported on Linux IIRC) |
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| 14:40.13 | SerajewelKS | is there a standard way to get a system-provided systemd unit to depend on another service? i have a tinc VPN whose up-script adds the interface to a bridge, but tinc services aren't declared to depend on networking, which means that during boot tinc starts before the bridge is up, but is still successful. |
| 14:40.35 | SerajewelKS | the result is a VPN that's "up" and allows VPN connections, but the virtual interface isn't added to the bridge and so VPN-routed packets go nowhere |
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| 14:40.41 | SerajewelKS | i have to manually restart tinc after boot to correct this |
| 14:40.51 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Yes... But I always have to read the instructions. Hang on.... |
| 14:40.59 | Ede|Popede | segfaults while upgrading, never had this before > http://paste.debian.net/plain/1068941 - but i also never had such a massive one. why and how... to keep system load on a reliable level in the future? |
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| 14:41.46 | blackflow | I really don't understand why the maintainers don't properly use systemd, when they write service units. redis, nginx, more than one example where it's badly used or configured. |
| 14:41.49 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: i had the thought to stop the specific tinc VPN service on the bridge pre-down and start it on post-up |
| 14:42.03 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: and turn off start-on-boot for that VPN |
| 14:42.03 | blackflow | there, redis-server with type=notify and no pidfile issues. |
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| 14:43.01 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: i wonder if that's the right solution anyway since the VPN depends on the bridge existing |
| 14:43.12 | SerajewelKS | maybe i've been overthinking it with systemd |
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| 14:45.24 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: You want the "foo.service.wants" part of the description of man systemd.unit. |
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| 14:46.26 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: You make a directory in /etc/systemd/system/... and put a symlink in there. In your case you might want "requires" instead. |
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| 14:47.17 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: There's also a way to override parts of an existing systemd config described there. Another directory is required. |
| 14:48.02 | galaxie | Back again. I finally got my audio in a state to where if I yell, I can hear myself clearly, with some static, but generally I'm not audible enough. Any ideas on fixing? |
| 14:48.14 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: do you think it would make more sense to have the post-up and pre-down stanzas of the bridge interface manage the service instead since the VPN depends on the bridge? |
| 14:48.28 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Overriding would be what you'd do if you wanted to hook into the pre-up and post-down and so forth. |
| 14:48.51 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: wouldn't i just disable the service so it doesn't auto start? |
| 14:49.02 | SerajewelKS | (trying to understand) |
| 14:49.13 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: does the static sound like background noise, or digital distortion? |
| 14:49.14 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: There are systemd hooks. That's what I was thinking of. |
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| 14:49.46 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: yeah. just after asking i'm not sure that the .wants mechanism is actually the right solution. but i'm glad you told me about it because i think there are other cases where i do need it. |
| 14:49.50 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: I don't know? It almost sounds like the internal fan, but it could be distortion?? |
| 14:50.04 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: hard to tell without hearing it myself. can you record a sample and upload it somewhere? |
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| 14:50.09 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: It's all about having "one place" to look for your configuration. My initial thought is that starting services in the bridge interface is less obvious, since systemd is taking over the world. |
| 14:50.14 | SerajewelKS | though i won't be able to listen until i'm out of the meeting |
| 14:50.21 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: There a nice temp place to do that? |
| 14:50.38 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: indeed. but when br0 goes down, it doesn't make sense to keep the VPN running; it would have to be restarted anyway when br0 comes back up. |
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| 14:51.07 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: if you have a server running an httpd you can use that. or something like S3. |
| 14:51.20 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I recall hearing some noise here about the interfaces file going away. (!) I didn't pay attention in the hope that it won't happen. ;-) |
| 14:51.33 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: though i'm unclear how ifupdown integrates with systemd to begin with |
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| 14:51.46 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Theory says that systemd takes care of bringing down stuff that requires other stuff. |
| 14:52.26 | karlpinc | (Possibly going away) |
| 14:53.09 | SerajewelKS | side note, i'm not exactly sure how the .wants links that autostart tinc VPNs are generated. the tinc package itself doesn't seem to include anything but tinc.service or tinc@.service and neither of those seem to know how to generate the .wants links |
| 14:53.12 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: I'll just record saying nothing, OK? |
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| 14:53.38 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I always need the systemd "wants" mechanisim when using php-fpm and any other webserver. IIRC. |
| 14:53.47 | SerajewelKS | galaxie: if you can do a sample with and without that would be helpful. but again i won't be able to listen for a bit of time as i'm in a meeting. |
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| 14:54.17 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: hmm. i've never needed that unless the config depends on being able to resolve hostnames or bind to interfaces by name. |
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| 14:54.44 | galaxie | SerajewelKS: Alright. I'll be back sometime anyways. |
| 14:55.16 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I use a Unix socket. I think that php-fpm must have to create the socket before nginx starts. Or the reverse. If you use localhost you don't have an issue. |
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| 14:56.39 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: hmm we're doing the same thing without issue. in my experience nginx doesn't test for the socket to exist and just tries connecting to it on the first request that requires it. if php-fpm isn't up yet then the client gets a 502. |
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| 14:57.02 | SerajewelKS | once the socket exists then requests start working without intervention |
| 14:57.25 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Maybe I'm not remembering right. There's some dependency somewhere I always seem to need to fuss with. |
| 14:57.35 | SerajewelKS | hmm let me know if you figure it out, i'm curious |
| 14:57.54 | SerajewelKS | i manage a dozen nginx + php-fpm servers and i've never encountered anything like that before. i haven't had to customize anything in systemd. |
| 14:58.02 | SerajewelKS | on jessie and stretch |
| 14:58.05 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Could be uwsgi instead of php-fpm. |
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| 14:58.17 | SerajewelKS | ah, never used that so i wouldn't know |
| 14:58.48 | SerajewelKS | i'm still puzzling trying to figure out how systemd knows to start my VPN at boot because i don't think i ever told it that, but i don't see anything that generates the service units |
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| 14:59.06 | SerajewelKS | unless once upon a time i did "systemd enable tinc@netname.service" |
| 14:59.11 | SerajewelKS | which is entirely possible |
| 14:59.16 | *** join/#debian dunix (~dunix@unaffiliated/dunix) |
| 14:59.38 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: If you have a choice, avoid uwsgi. wsgi is fine, but uwsgi documentation sucks -- unless your use-case exactly matches some of the zillion template configs that are in the docs. |
| 15:00.05 | SerajewelKS | i don't even know what the use case is for uwsgi |
| 15:00.40 | SerajewelKS | now i'm vaguely recalling tinkering with _something_ about uwsgi or wsgi but i don't remember what it was for |
| 15:01.16 | godane | so i found out last night that debian live cd iso on usb stick sucks |
| 15:01.58 | SerajewelKS | apparently the tinc README.Debian says to "systemd enable tinc@netname.service" so i guess that's probably what i did |
| 15:02.03 | hays | blackflow: is that the only line i have to change or do i need to read up on systemd |
| 15:02.07 | godane | for some reason the graphics doesn't work and pushs it to 1920x1080 |
| 15:02.16 | *** join/#debian electro33 (uid613@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwjkobooksgjiisr) |
| 15:02.25 | godane | also there was no wget, ifconfig, dhcpcd commands |
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| 15:03.18 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Python. uwsgi is like gnunicorn etc., where it manages wsgi python back-ends and starts and stops them depending on load/etc. Something else (nginx, etc) then handles the http(s) part. |
| 15:03.41 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: ah hmm maybe it was some django thing i worked on a long time ago |
| 15:03.59 | godane | i also found out once i was able to make aufs and put everything in linux-live scripts stuff start working alot better |
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| 15:04.16 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: nginx will hook directly into uwsgi. Otherwise you run, say, gunicorn and reverse proxy. |
| 15:04.18 | godane | video card problems are at least gone |
| 15:04.54 | SerajewelKS | godane: note that you can create your own live CDs with the live-tools project, and you can tell the builder to preinstall whatever you want |
| 15:05.26 | SerajewelKS | a live CD isn't going to come with every tool that everyone wants |
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| 15:07.03 | karlpinc | I thought the live project has usbstick images available. Once you've a usb stick image working you can install new packages. If the stick is read-only then you've got to do it every time after boot, but read-write then the packages permanently install. |
| 15:08.53 | godane | SerajewelKS: i just found it weird that there was no ifconfig cause without it there no way to setup internet on commandline |
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| 15:09.14 | SerajewelKS | godane: umm ifconfig has been deprecated for years. use ip. |
| 15:10.21 | SerajewelKS | ip commands are less terse but are more precise |
| 15:10.50 | SerajewelKS | e.g. ifconfig doesn't have a way to add an address to an existing interface (AFAIK), you have to use the old-style "virtual interfaces" like eth0:1 |
| 15:11.01 | SerajewelKS | with ip it's just "ip addr add x.x.x.x/y dev eth0" |
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| 15:11.34 | godane | anyways i'm going to see if can make your image work with extra packages and my live scripts |
| 15:11.48 | SerajewelKS | the startard "ifconfig" output is almost totally superseded by "ip addr" which displays all of the same information except packet counters |
| 15:12.06 | godane | the graphics/videocard doesn't like your livecd for some reason using your scripts |
| 15:12.11 | godane | bbl |
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| 15:13.24 | de-facto | hmm why do i get these warnings "Target Packages (main/binary-amd64/Packages) is configured multiple times in /etc/apt/sources.list:3 and /etc/apt/sources.list:14" after running "dpkg --add-architecture armhf" on doing apt-get install $stuff ? |
| 15:14.14 | de-facto | those line numbers dont make any sense at all |
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| 15:14.41 | jmcnaught | de-facto: can you pastebin your sources.list? |
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| 15:16.09 | de-facto | yup but i already have an idea... i used >> instead of > to write it... |
| 15:17.29 | de-facto | jmcnaught, now its https://pastebin.com/yG7ZWbXb and running... |
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| 15:18.27 | jmcnaught | are you still getting the warning? |
| 15:19.01 | de-facto | nope i think it might be fine now |
| 15:19.49 | de-facto | it appended before because i used ">>" to write, so with ">" it seems to be correct |
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| 15:21.30 | de-facto | i get some warnings still about missing "apt-utils" and such |
| 15:21.52 | de-facto | ..."debconf: delaying package configuration, since apt-utils is not installed"... |
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| 15:34.31 | darxmurf | hi all |
| 15:34.48 | de-facto | how do i fix warnings like "update-alternatives: warning: skip creation of /usr/share/man/man1/automake.1.gz because associated file /usr/share/man/man1/automake-1.15.1.gz (of link group automake) doesn't exist" |
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| 15:37.54 | no_gravity | Hello! I connected an USB scanner to my Debian Desktop - how do I know if Debian can see it? In Gimp, there seems to be no new button that lets me scan or something. |
| 15:38.29 | jmcnaught | no_gravity: try the "simple scan" program |
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| 15:39.17 | no_gravity | jmcnaught: Ok ... |
| 15:39.22 | no_gravity | Ha! It scans :) |
| 15:39.58 | no_gravity | It has a big black bar through the scanned image though. |
| 15:40.31 | no_gravity | Wonder if that means my scanner is broken. |
| 15:41.16 | no_gravity | Also wonder why Gimp does not see the scanner. |
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| 15:43.02 | factor | Does anyone know if QT uic will work with QT5? I install the libqt5designer5 package |
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| 15:43.34 | Dark-Jedi | No idea. Try it out and let us know. |
| 15:44.57 | SerajewelKS | no_gravity: you may have to restart gimp. it may not notice that a scanner was added. |
| 15:44.57 | no_gravity | Maybe I should do 'apt install xsane'? |
| 15:45.08 | no_gravity | SerajewelKS: Restarted it a few times already. No change. |
| 15:45.12 | SerajewelKS | hmm |
| 15:45.26 | de-facto | no_gravity, i always prefered xsane over simple scan |
| 15:45.35 | SerajewelKS | how are you trying to scan from gimp? |
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| 15:46.00 | no_gravity | SerajewelKS: I would expect to find 'scan' under file->create. But there is nothing. |
| 15:46.32 | SerajewelKS | hmm. perhaps your build of gimp was compiled without scanning support. |
| 15:46.50 | no_gravity | Ok, 'apt install xsane' changed it. Now I have a scanner under file->create! |
| 15:47.20 | SerajewelKS | you may not have had the sane libraries installed and installing xsane would have automatically installed them |
| 15:48.05 | no_gravity | Next problem: There is a vertical black stripe through the scan. Is my scanner broken? |
| 15:48.32 | SerajewelKS | could be. try it on another system with a different OS and see if the problem carries over? |
| 15:48.44 | SerajewelKS | that would rule out being a linux driver issue |
| 15:48.50 | no_gravity | I don't have another system. |
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| 15:49.12 | SerajewelKS | do you have one you could use some other time, e.g. at work or school or a friend's system? |
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| 15:49.33 | no_gravity | Ha! Same printer, same problem: https://askubuntu.com/questions/973526/thick-black-vertical-line-with-canon-lide-100-scanner-in-ubuntu-17-10 |
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| 15:50.20 | SerajewelKS | huh, i have a lide somethingorother and i don't have this issue. strange. |
| 15:50.23 | SerajewelKS | i don't know if it's the 100 though. |
| 15:50.33 | no_gravity | Solution is to "force replacing all sane packages with the 1.0.25 packages". How do I do that? |
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| 15:51.15 | SerajewelKS | no_gravity: libsane in debian stable *is* 1.0.25 |
| 15:51.21 | SerajewelKS | ,v libsane |
| 15:51.22 | judd | Package: libsane on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.0.22-7.4; wheezy-security: 1.0.22-7.4+deb7u1; jessie: 1.0.24-8+deb8u2; stretch: 1.0.25-4.1; buster: 1.0.27-3.1; sid: 1.0.27-3.1 |
| 15:52.26 | no_gravity | SerajewelKS: How do I check the version on my machine? |
| 15:52.43 | Fox | no_gravity: dpkg -l libsane |
| 15:52.59 | SerajewelKS | "apt-cache policy libsane" is better |
| 15:53.17 | SerajewelKS | it will also tell you what version(s) are available in your repo(s) |
| 15:53.19 | no_gravity | Both say it is not installed. |
| 15:53.24 | SerajewelKS | O_o |
| 15:53.31 | SerajewelKS | you installed xsane, it must be installed |
| 15:53.31 | Fox | how could that be :) |
| 15:53.39 | SerajewelKS | libsane is a dependency |
| 15:53.45 | SerajewelKS | no_gravity: can you pastebin your /etc/apt/sources.list somewhere? |
| 15:54.03 | no_gravity | SerajewelKS: Sorry, I never pastebin system internals. |
| 15:54.18 | SerajewelKS | okay. good luck with your issue. |
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| 15:54.59 | SerajewelKS | not going to waste time if i can't get basic information required to troubleshoot |
| 15:55.02 | Fox | you don't know how to check for a version but don't want to paste any internal info, sound strange to me |
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| 15:55.23 | Fox | no_gravity: are you saying you don't use official debian repos ? |
| 15:55.42 | Fox | (that's your right) |
| 15:55.45 | no_gravity | I'm trying it on an old laptop now. Lets see if I can get it to work there. |
| 15:56.13 | no_gravity | "apt install xsane" is the way to go? |
| 15:56.31 | Fox | it is |
| 15:57.00 | darxmurf | pffff why the hell I can't connect a samba server using mount.cifs but it works from a windows client? The server is a linux machine configured with SSSD/AD |
| 15:57.11 | darxmurf | oh and it works with smbclient Oo |
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| 15:57.57 | no_gravity | It worked on the laptop. So all is good. |
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| 16:09.22 | Tenkawa | I have an odd one for you all... got a case where if I hook up 64 gb samsung usb thumb drives they perform, sdparm can operate the cache, etc on them just fine... pop in a 128 gb one and it just all goes downhill ad sdparm cant even change the cache states |
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| 16:10.57 | Tenkawa | if it helps its the sadisk ultrafit thats acting up and a samsung 64gb fit that works fine |
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| 16:11.11 | SerajewelKS | are they rated for the same version of USB? |
| 16:11.42 | SerajewelKS | i've seen cases where a device claims to support USB3 but malfunctions when operating under USB3. i've had to entirely unload the USB3-related kernel module to force the device to use USB2. |
| 16:11.43 | Tenkawa | yeah both usb 3 |
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| 16:12.12 | SerajewelKS | (using a USB2 port also works) |
| 16:12.21 | SerajewelKS | maybe that's worth a try |
| 16:12.27 | Tenkawa | the sandisk "theoreticly" had higher specs |
| 16:12.29 | de-facto | I get a lot of warnings from apt-get install like this: "update-alternatives: warning: skip creation of /usr/share/man/man1/write.1.gz because associated file /usr/share/man/man1/bsd-write.1.gz (of link group write) doesn't exist" |
| 16:12.36 | de-facto | which package am i missing? |
| 16:12.55 | Tenkawa | SerajewelKS: yeah thought about trying that too |
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| 16:13.06 | SerajewelKS | de-facto: based on everything you've said, the weird errors, and your refusal to paste your sources.list, my guess is that you are running debian mixed with something else, or not debian at all. |
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| 16:13.43 | SerajewelKS | oh wait |
| 16:13.45 | SerajewelKS | that wasn't you |
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| 16:14.06 | SerajewelKS | dammit sorry, de-facto. i'm running on 5 hours of sleep. |
| 16:14.15 | de-facto | SerajewelKS, i did pastebin it before https://pastebin.com/yG7ZWbXb |
| 16:14.26 | SerajewelKS | yeah i'm just an idiot |
| 16:14.29 | de-facto | np :) |
| 16:14.37 | SerajewelKS | i got you confused with no_gravity |
| 16:14.46 | de-facto | im just trying to get the output of apt-get install clean |
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| 16:14.57 | SerajewelKS | my brain goes "two letters followed by punctuation, must be the same person" |
| 16:15.28 | jmcnaught | de-facto: are you attempting some kind of minimal system? did you perhaps delete a bunch of man pages for some reason? |
| 16:15.30 | SerajewelKS | your sources.list looks fine |
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| 16:16.02 | Tenkawa | let me look at your error.. just a sec |
| 16:16.25 | de-facto | jmcnaught, yes its very minimal FROM: debian:stretch-slim, so I guess i need to install something to make update-alternatives happy |
| 16:16.46 | de-facto | as minimal as possible for building and installing stuff |
| 16:16.56 | Tenkawa | can you paste the error up on pastebin? |
| 16:17.13 | Tenkawa | and the steps taken to reproduce |
| 16:17.24 | jmcnaught | de-facto: so it's a docker image? Sounds like whoever created the stretch-slim image it's based on did stuff like delete man pages, which is why you're getting those warnings |
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| 16:18.45 | de-facto | Tenkawa, this is the docker build: https://pastebin.com/EETm3JSd |
| 16:18.50 | Tenkawa | thanks |
| 16:20.22 | de-facto | jmcnaught, yes its the "official" debian:stretch-slim https://github.com/debuerreotype/docker-debian-artifacts/blob/dist-amd64/stretch/slim/Dockerfile |
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| 16:20.57 | Tenkawa | you were just asking about those skip update-alternatives right? |
| 16:21.26 | de-facto | yes about those update-alternatives: warning: skip creation of... |
| 16:21.36 | Tenkawa | if you are concerned about those you can rerun those by update-alternatives --all |
| 16:21.39 | de-facto | i guess it needs some manpages or such |
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| 16:21.43 | Tenkawa | those are normal |
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| 16:22.38 | Tenkawa | those get redone everytime a app item changes.. ie vi for example |
| 16:22.59 | de-facto | Tenkawa, which package provides the proper deps so update-alternatives would not do that on a normal system (e.g non slim)? |
| 16:23.13 | Tenkawa | like /etc/alternatives/vi might me /etc/alternatives/vim.tiny |
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| 16:23.38 | Tenkawa | dpkg |
| 16:23.55 | Tenkawa | its in /usr/bin |
| 16:24.09 | de-facto | its always the same prefix "update-alternatives: warning: skip creation of /usr/share/man/man1" |
| 16:24.30 | Tenkawa | right because it already exists |
| 16:24.36 | Tenkawa | its prestaged |
| 16:24.50 | otyugh | heya. If some of you did install on SoC ARM devices and got stuck to the "loading kernel..." in the boot process, I'd glad to heard what you did to fix it (using official debian installer). Hopefully you did. (on Olimex A20-micro) |
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| 16:25.22 | de-facto | Tenkawa, it says "because associated file /usr/share/man/man1/...gz (of link group lzma) doesn't exist" |
| 16:26.07 | Tenkawa | yes. it wont auto link (it has defined autolinks if the correct prereqs exists) |
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| 16:26.36 | Tenkawa | if you had lzma installed it wouldve linked to lzma instead |
| 16:26.38 | de-facto | so what would i have to install to get rid of those warnings? |
| 16:26.45 | Tenkawa | you dont |
| 16:26.51 | Tenkawa | you ignore them |
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| 16:27.27 | de-facto | hmm i want to install whatever makes those warnings not appear on a desktop system... |
| 16:27.29 | Tenkawa | they are informational.... someone else please confirm/negate this |
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| 16:29.38 | Tenkawa | bbialw... need lunch |
| 16:29.43 | Tenkawa | good luck |
| 16:29.51 | de-facto | thanks enjoy :) |
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| 16:33.22 | jmcnaught | de-facto: i don't think those are "official" from the Debian project. Like I said it's likely that the person who made the rootfs.tar.xz that is added by the dockerfile, they probably simply deleted man pages to make the image smaller, and update-alternatives can't find files for man pages that it expects to be there. It's not that serious but makes me wonder what else is changed or missing |
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| 16:34.28 | de-facto | jmcnaught, hmm do you think it would be better to debootstrap FROM: scratch ? |
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| 16:35.34 | jmcnaught | my docker experience is pretty limited so I don't best practices. i do my best to avoid it. |
| 16:35.51 | jmcnaught | s/don't/don't know/ |
| 16:36.04 | de-facto | i got the "official" link to that Dockerfile from https://github.com/docker-library/official-images/blob/master/library/debian |
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| 16:36.37 | de-facto | whatever "official" means here |
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| 16:38.26 | jmcnaught | it looks like Debian developers are maintaining it, but if it were an official Debian project I would expect it to be on https://salsa.debian.org instead of github. I wouldn't worry too much about update-alternatives warning about missing man pages though |
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| 16:38.35 | jmcnaught | you're not likely to be reading those man pages inside the container |
| 16:40.33 | de-facto | nope im just trying to get a clean start for my build pipeline |
| 16:40.48 | de-facto | so i just ignore those then... |
| 16:41.16 | jmcnaught | at least the warning about missing man pages |
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| 16:42.20 | de-facto | jmcnaught, the other one which worries me is "debconf: delaying package configuration, since apt-utils is not installed" but i did apt-get install apt-utils upfront... |
| 16:43.44 | de-facto | like DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive apt-get -qy -o Dpkg::Use-Pty=0 install --no-install-recommends apt-utils |
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| 16:56.04 | jmcnaught | de-facto: --no-install-recommends could be why apt-utils was missing in the first place, for me "aptitude why apt-utils" shows "debconf Recommends apt-utils". It's a recommend, so it's recommended (obviously) but not strictly required |
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| 16:57.38 | de-facto | yes but i explicitely install it, so i just ignore that too then? |
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| 17:01.21 | nameisjohn | hi all! |
| 17:01.32 | nameisjohn | I have a system that uses duel-channel RAM, i think it's DDR2 |
| 17:01.48 | nameisjohn | the motherboard has two red slots and two yellow slots |
| 17:02.29 | nameisjohn | I've been running the RAM for years in it (2Gb) and decided it was time for an upgrade to 4Gb. |
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| 17:02.58 | nameisjohn | But it seems that when all 4 RAM slots are loaded with the exact same kind of RAM, the system hangs when i open Chromium, although the mouse sometimes still moves around |
| 17:03.27 | nameisjohn | I've tried moving the RAM around, nothing. And any combination of 2 RAMs in either yellow or red channels works fine |
| 17:03.36 | nameisjohn | The old and new RAM really does appear identical |
| 17:03.41 | nameisjohn | So i'm not sure what to do :/ |
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| 17:04.20 | strive | nameisjohn, sounds like a problem ##hardware. |
| 17:04.38 | strive | for ^ |
| 17:04.47 | nameisjohn | ah, yeah, you're right |
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| 17:05.05 | strive | It's not a direct issue with Debian :/ |
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| 17:05.19 | nameisjohn | sorry i'm still on the "get Debian working today" desicion path, but your right this is nothing to do with Debian. The only thing i can think of is where would a RAM error be stored in the logs? |
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| 17:07.26 | strive | I wonder if Debian has a 'memtest' feature on the GRUB screen. |
| 17:08.31 | strive | nameisjohn, it looks like there are some memory test applications. e.g memtester, mprime |
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| 17:15.09 | de-facto | Do you guys know why there is no such package in stretch: "Unable to locate package crossbuild-essential-i386"? |
| 17:16.01 | de-facto | i can only see it in buster |
| 17:16.02 | nameisjohn | strive - i'll give them both a shot! thanks a lot, i find it really hard to search the repo |
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| 17:18.05 | jmcnaught | de-facto: probably because it's newer than stretch |
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| 17:19.11 | de-facto | ok so i would have to wait for buster then i guess |
| 17:19.28 | de-facto | its looks pretty nice there are those packages for "amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mips64el mipsel powerpc ppc64el s390x" in buster |
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| 17:32.08 | Ede|Popede | did i say 'ridiculous'? what's the next level? klicking on a starterbutton in xfce's panel really shouldn't use all the ressources available. the next disconnect due to the system doing *something* and then org.freedesktop.Notifications gets restarted. never had this before without relation to firefox running wild and now the 2nd time in a day? |
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| 17:40.03 | de-facto | when I am inside the source tree of a debian package (directory containing "debian" directory), how can i get the package version in a script (the one from changelog)? |
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| 17:41.28 | de-facto | the "dpkg-parsechangelog --show-field Version" gives me the verion with the debian build suffix, e.g. 0.0.32-1 |
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| 17:45.20 | ChmEarl | de-facto /usr/share/dpkg/pkg-info.mk |
| 17:45.43 | ChmEarl | de-facto, plenty of bash tricks there |
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| 17:46.35 | de-facto | oh nice one thanks :) |
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| 18:23.19 | hays | where do i put things that are outside the purview of the package manager |
| 18:24.10 | hays | like for example something like redis |
| 18:24.36 | jmcnaught | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:24.51 | Sleaker | I mean.. you can also just install redis via package manager. |
| 18:25.02 | Sleaker | otherwise /opt is a good choice |
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| 18:33.59 | blackflow | hays: what's wrong with packaged redis? |
| 18:34.22 | hays | cant get it working |
| 18:34.32 | blackflow | what's the error |
| 18:34.57 | hays | apparently there's some kind of race condition with systemd |
| 18:35.20 | blackflow | hays: about pid? |
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| 18:35.39 | hays | that's my best guess. do you remember we talked earlier |
| 18:35.53 | blackflow | hays: the solution is very easy. conver the unit to Type=notify, remove ExecStop, and reconfigure redis.conf for supervision systemd |
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| 18:36.18 | hays | oh, type=notify? i tried type=simple |
| 18:36.47 | blackflow | hays: I thought so too but then looked that the config which..... explains..... what to do :) |
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| 18:36.54 | blackflow | *looked at |
| 18:37.15 | blackflow | oh also comment out pidfile from the redis.conf, so it doesn't create it. that's the race condition there |
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| 18:38.56 | hays | hmm maybe i missed that |
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| 18:41.33 | hays | now im getting: Active: failed (Result: start-limit-hit) since Tue 2019-02-19 13:41:08 EST; 4s ago |
| 18:42.26 | blackflow | hays: in /etc/systemd/system/redis.service comment out ExecStop and PIDFile. Set Type=notify. systemctl daemon-reload. in /etc/redis/redis.conf change supervised to systemd and comment out pidfile. that's it. (re)start redis-server.service |
| 18:43.02 | blackflow | (or redis.service, it's aliased) |
| 18:43.27 | hays | blackflow: yep. did all that, except i set it to 'auto'. however, it seems like the unit file is in /lib/systemd/system/redis.service |
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| 18:44.39 | blackflow | hays: don't change the unit file there. copy it over to /etc/systemd/system/redis.service, or run systemctl edit redis.service |
| 18:44.42 | hays | ok. systemd worked. audo did not |
| 18:45.13 | blackflow | hays: make sure your unit modifications are NOT under /lib or the next update will replace it back to the packaged version |
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| 18:45.34 | hays | ok |
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| 18:45.52 | hays | i copied it, although the lib file is changed. sounds like that doesnt matter |
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| 18:46.59 | blackflow | if they're the same it doesn't in this case, the lib file will revert on next update or just force it now with apt install --reinstall |
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| 18:47.11 | blackflow | redis |
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| 18:48.54 | hays | thanks. very helpful |
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| 18:52.08 | de-facto | how would I "cp" everything (possible even file/folders with spaces) BUT some exclusions into another dir? I dont want to depend on bash et al... |
| 18:53.04 | greycat | oh, you ju.... Oh. You specifically DISALLOWED my answer in your final sentence. Oh well. |
| 18:54.16 | blackflow | rsync --exclude ftw |
| 18:54.35 | de-facto | yeah but thats another dependency |
| 18:54.47 | joepublic | "et al" means "or anything else" which rules out all possible answers. |
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| 18:55.01 | blackflow | I know what et al means, but I thought it was in the context of shells |
| 18:55.04 | blackflow | like... shell agnostic answer. |
| 18:55.11 | blackflow | oh well. what greycat said. |
| 18:55.28 | joepublic | my observation flowed from the rejection of an rsync answer. |
| 18:55.31 | blackflow | good luck with those windmills. off to dinner. |
| 18:55.32 | de-facto | yeah I basically want to stick with what /bin/sh can provide |
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| 18:55.58 | de-facto | maybe find --exec, its on almost every system |
| 18:56.22 | joepublic | so, /bin/sh anywhere? (which might be sh or ksh etc.), or /bin/sh on debian (which is dash)? |
| 18:56.35 | blackflow | you could loop over results of find and do some if-then-else magic if you really wanted |
| 18:56.39 | joepublic | find, like rsync, is "another dependency" |
| 18:57.07 | de-facto | yes i know thats why im not happy with it |
| 18:57.09 | blackflow | joepublic: /bin/sh is posix defined tho |
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| 18:57.18 | greycat | Actually it's not. |
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| 18:57.29 | blackflow | oh? |
| 18:57.41 | greycat | POSIX says there must be an "sh" which must have such-and-such properties, but does not demand that it be in /bin. Because Solaris. |
| 18:57.54 | greycat | Old Solaris put their POSIX shell in /usr/xpg4/bin or something. |
| 18:58.04 | joepublic | and dash, ksh, etc, presumably have posixy properties. |
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| 18:58.21 | blackflow | I see. |
| 18:58.23 | greycat | Dash, ksh, and bash are all shells based on the POSIX standard, with extensions. Some more than others. |
| 18:58.46 | blackflow | but it's the properties that one can rely on, is what I had in mind |
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| 18:59.14 | greycat | As long as you don't have to worry about old Solaris boxes, you can pretty safely assume that /bin/sh will have the POSIX feature set nowadays. |
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| 18:59.31 | greycat | You can ship a README.Solaris or something to tell users how to work around it. |
| 18:59.49 | blackflow | user you mean. singular. k, I'll see myself out now. |
| 19:00.07 | de-facto | yes thats why i try to stick with /bin/sh when ever i can and just use bash or zsh for convenience on my terminals |
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| 19:05.07 | greycat | Well, if you insist on doing it in a POSIX shell, the correct answer is probably find -prune. |
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| 19:05.56 | de-facto | interessting, what is that -prune? |
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| 19:07.11 | greycat | man find, or https://mywiki.wooledge.org/UsingFind |
| 19:09.11 | de-facto | oh thats really nice, i didnt know that one before thanks :) |
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| 19:17.32 | blackflow | yeah the manpages are the bees knees. |
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| 20:03.10 | Tenkawa | SerajewelKS: you were who I was talking to about the usb thumb drive acting up right? |
| 20:04.07 | karlpinc | de-facto: find is in a Debian "required" package. And its even in busybox so I'd be pretty confident you'll always have it. |
| 20:04.43 | de-facto | yes thats why i like to use it for exclude patterns |
| 20:04.49 | Tenkawa | I think its the drive... its way hot when I took it out and the metal looks like it might have taken an electrical spike at some point. thank goodness it was on sale |
| 20:05.45 | greycat | find is a mandatory POSIX tool, and has been in unix ever since forever ago |
| 20:05.54 | greycat | ... |
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| 20:06.15 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: yeah it was me |
| 20:06.21 | karlpinc | de-facto: find is also easier to reason about than grep -r. |
| 20:06.46 | greycat | So apparently it floods if your sentence begins with "find ". Not having that around. |
| 20:06.49 | de-facto | yup and actually super fast too |
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| 20:07.09 | Tenkawa | SerajewelKS: oh well.. heheh |
| 20:07.09 | *** mode/#debian [-o greycat] by greycat |
| 20:07.20 | Tenkawa | fortunately it was blank |
| 20:07.24 | SerajewelKS | "find ... -print0 | xargs -0 ..." is the supertool |
| 20:07.33 | greycat | it's a tool. |
| 20:07.43 | jelly | and one of that -exec nonsense! |
| 20:07.48 | jelly | none* dammit |
| 20:08.08 | SerajewelKS | exec is nice if the program you need to run can't take multiple files anyway |
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| 20:08.20 | greycat | It's one of the non-wrong ways to operate on files. -exec + is another way, and sometimes better. |
| 20:08.33 | karlpinc | would make a joke about "executive time" but that's sure to go to a dark place. |
| 20:08.43 | greycat | SerajewelKS: -exec takes multiple filenames now, with the + instead of ; |
| 20:08.51 | jelly | it's ugly, even given the rest of find's syntax. I refuse to use it. |
| 20:08.54 | SerajewelKS | ah right, i forgot about that |
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| 20:09.17 | jelly | {}? ; ffs? |
| 20:09.22 | jelly | just no. |
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| 20:09.39 | SerajewelKS | ; makes sense as it's virtually guaranteed not to interfere with anything else |
| 20:09.52 | de-facto | i got the impression find something -exec doit {} \; is much faster than doing it with sh et al |
| 20:09.54 | jelly | I'd rather | xargs -0 -n1 -iX 'do stuff with X and go on' |
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| 20:10.18 | greycat | embedding the filename inside a larger string is a security hole |
| 20:10.21 | karlpinc | Yeah. xargs -n1 is the ticket. |
| 20:10.25 | Tenkawa | prefers xargs |
| 20:10.30 | joepublic | well, unless you are copying a directory full of VMS files called TEMPFILE.TMP;001 and TEMPFILE.TMP;002 etc. |
| 20:10.36 | SerajewelKS | it's hard to walk the line between "doesn't look dumb" and "isn't likely to require special escaping in the case you need to actually literally pass the special token to the command literally" |
| 20:10.46 | greycat | filenames can have newlines, semicolons, backticks, etc. |
| 20:10.50 | SerajewelKS | why did i say literally twice |
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| 20:11.41 | joepublic | literally literally means literally usually, whereas literally alone may mean "figuratively, and also, the speaker's vocabulary is substandard or very informal" |
| 20:11.46 | Tenkawa | joepublic: VMS? |
| 20:11.51 | SerajewelKS | i'd rather something look dumb and work right almost all of the time than look great and sometimes work |
| 20:11.55 | Tenkawa | heheh |
| 20:11.56 | karlpinc | I keep thinking that there's got to be an eaiser way than shell. Emacs shell or python shell or something. But my brain always catches on fire. |
| 20:12.27 | joepublic | VMS. It's an operating system. When last I used it, filenames were 8+3+3, filename.ext;ver |
| 20:12.47 | karlpinc | Tenkawa: VMS is the Dec Vax OS. it has the great idea of versioned files. |
| 20:12.48 | Tenkawa | that was the joke |
| 20:12.58 | SerajewelKS | there's some concepts i like about powershell, in particular commands having typed arguments and being able to pipe streams of objects between them instead of just streams of bytes |
| 20:13.12 | Tenkawa | vms was notorious for creating filenames with those names |
| 20:13.18 | joepublic | that "When last" was not recently, by the way |
| 20:13.45 | Tenkawa | on the vax |
| 20:13.57 | joepublic | yes, it was on a VAX |
| 20:14.06 | Tenkawa | i know |
| 20:14.09 | jelly | greycat: sorry, xargs -0 -n1 -iX do stuff with X |
| 20:14.19 | joepublic | well, it could have been on a PDP |
| 20:14.27 | Tenkawa | indeed |
| 20:14.30 | SerajewelKS | it's somewhat difficult to pipe structured data between programs in a safe way. it obviously has to be encapsulated in some format, like CSV or JSON. then you have programs that don't talk the same language and have to put a translator between them, and all of this carries (de)serialization overhead |
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| 20:15.12 | Tenkawa | wow a overheating usb stick is really hot to the touch |
| 20:15.30 | joepublic | you become the heat spreader, huh |
| 20:15.34 | karlpinc | Quick. Throw it in the bathtub! |
| 20:15.40 | Tenkawa | joepublic: indeed |
| 20:15.46 | Tenkawa | hahaaaa |
| 20:15.58 | SerajewelKS | powershell lets you pipe objects that don't need serialization, but the downside is that the commands have to run in the same process to be able to access the same memory |
| 20:16.08 | SerajewelKS | so there can be security implications |
| 20:16.26 | joepublic | in same process/same memory/no serializations sounds fast-optimized |
| 20:16.32 | SerajewelKS | yes |
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| 20:17.06 | SerajewelKS | you can literally pipe an array/iterable of objects to another command |
| 20:17.17 | jelly | they could have _tried_ to make the syntax more consistent |
| 20:17.29 | joepublic | of find, jelly ? |
| 20:17.39 | jelly | powershell. |
| 20:17.42 | SerajewelKS | not saying it's perfect, it just has some clever concepts i haven't seen in a shell before |
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| 20:17.59 | jelly | authors of find had the excuse of not knowing better |
| 20:18.02 | joepublic | well, powershell.kind.of.looks.like any.other.dot.net.thing if you squint |
| 20:18.11 | karlpinc | A whole lot more shell-like programs do not sound like a good thing. |
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| 20:18.31 | de-facto | do you guys know if i can give the root directory in a tar archive (when creating it) a different name? |
| 20:19.25 | SerajewelKS | whereas on linux all pipes are byte streams, which can convey any data and is simple to reason about, it carries a cost of programs having to format data for the next program that's just going to have to parse it back. the simpler model carries inefficiencies. |
| 20:19.37 | SerajewelKS | it's just another trade-off |
| 20:19.39 | somiaj | de-facto: what do you mean? tar usually store relative paths (not absolute), Is this in creating a tar or in extracting one? |
| 20:20.07 | somiaj | de-facto: sorry when creating it....sorry am still waking up |
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| 20:20.25 | PaulePanter | Hi. With cups-filters packages installed, do you see `/etc/default/cups`? |
| 20:20.45 | Tenkawa | well here's one problem |
| 20:20.51 | SerajewelKS | de-facto: if you mean "insert a fake directory before the structure of the contents" then no, i don't think so. (where would the metadata of this fake directory come from?) |
| 20:20.54 | jelly | judd: file etc/default/cups |
| 20:20.56 | karlpinc | de-facto: Perhaps bind-mount root somewhere else and tar that up? (Sounds like being too clever for your own good.) |
| 20:20.57 | judd | No packages in stretch/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 20:20.59 | Tenkawa | my machine isnt taking advantage of uas |
| 20:21.05 | jelly | judd: file /etc/default/cups |
| 20:21.09 | judd | No packages in stretch/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 20:21.13 | PaulePanter | $ head -2 /etc/modules-load.d/cups-filters.conf |
| 20:21.13 | PaulePanter | # Parallel printer driver modules loading for cups |
| 20:21.14 | PaulePanter | # LOAD_LP_MODULE was 'yes' in /etc/default/cups |
| 20:21.15 | jelly | welp! |
| 20:21.22 | de-facto | somiaj, when i create a tar archive like tar --exclude'.*' -cJvF archive.tar.xz dir <- want to rename dir inside the archive while creatinhg it |
| 20:21.45 | jelly | judd: file etc/default/cups --release jessie |
| 20:21.50 | judd | No packages in jessie/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 20:22.01 | PaulePanter | jelly: Thanks. So, Iâll report a bug to cups-filters asking about clearing that up. |
| 20:22.12 | Tenkawa | interface driver is loaded but the udev/hal seems to be ignoring it |
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| 20:22.52 | jelly | PaulePanter: jud is doing something fishy. My installation says this about dpkg -S /etc/default/cups |
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| 20:23.00 | jelly | cups: /etc/default/cups |
| 20:23.06 | de-facto | oh i meant -cJvf of course |
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| 20:23.21 | PaulePanter | jelly: Really. My does not. But I am on Debian Sid/unstable. |
| 20:23.24 | jelly | and "cups" is not a leftover transitional package, it's from stretch |
| 20:23.39 | SerajewelKS | de-facto: aha, take a look at the --transform switch |
| 20:23.40 | PaulePanter | Looking at the git source of the package, I found |
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| 20:23.51 | jelly | PaulePanter: a) do you have "cups" package installed and b) wrong channel for sid |
| 20:23.55 | jelly | !debian-next |
| 20:23.55 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. |
| 20:23.57 | somiaj | de-facto: does your dir have any symlinks in it? |
| 20:24.03 | PaulePanter | commit 24da0c25b9c (Move LP_LOAD_MODULES configuration away from cups to /etc/modules-load.d/cup) |
| 20:24.03 | de-facto | none |
| 20:24.20 | somiaj | de-facto: you could make a symlink with the newdir name, then use -h to follow the symlink |
| 20:24.21 | SerajewelKS | de-facto: note that it's a sed expression |
| 20:24.21 | PaulePanter | jelly: Sorry about that, and thank you for your help. |
| 20:24.35 | somiaj | de-facto: though SerajewelKS suggestion might be more appropriate, I didn't see that in the manpage |
| 20:24.35 | SerajewelKS | Defcronyke: "tar --transform 's/^dir$/newname/'" should work |
| 20:24.54 | SerajewelKS | oh this applies to all filename |
| 20:24.58 | SerajewelKS | +s |
| 20:25.10 | de-facto | that looks very nice actually... let me try :) |
| 20:25.11 | jelly | poor def'cron'thing |
| 20:25.13 | somiaj | I searched the man page for rename, didn't think to look for trasnform. |
| 20:25.41 | SerajewelKS | de-facto: so it would have to be something else that handles 'dir' and 'dir/a/b/c' |
| 20:25.53 | SerajewelKS | regexp gets annoying with optional trailing things |
| 20:26.20 | jelly | tar has a man page now? |
| 20:26.41 | greycat | Seems so. |
| 20:26.45 | SerajewelKS | yeah it even documents the options |
| 20:26.49 | SerajewelKS | unlike the gzip manpage |
| 20:26.51 | Tenkawa | jelly: "a"... it probably has like 10 of them |
| 20:26.54 | somiaj | I did test the symlink method, and works for me, but this would only work if you didn't have symlinks inside the archive, as -h will follow all symlinks. |
| 20:26.57 | Tenkawa | all different |
| 20:27.00 | SerajewelKS | oh, they changed that |
| 20:27.07 | greycat | Tenkawa: clearly in context he meant "GNU tar" |
| 20:27.13 | Tenkawa | heheh |
| 20:27.15 | SerajewelKS | gzip --rsyncable used to be up in the usage section, but didn't have any documentation describing what it did |
| 20:27.16 | jelly | but it's GNU tar! GNU people love info |
| 20:27.32 | Tenkawa | I thought they always did |
| 20:27.37 | greycat | Wheezy's tar(1) is dramatically different. |
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| 20:27.52 | Tenkawa | oh.... was it bsd's |
| 20:27.53 | Tenkawa | ? |
| 20:28.08 | Tenkawa | manpage or something similar |
| 20:28.11 | greycat | https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/tar/tar.1.en.html |
| 20:28.11 | Tenkawa | with mods |
| 20:29.18 | somiaj | seems (according to the change log) it was upstream version 1.28 that started providing man pages for tar. |
| 20:29.48 | greycat | jessie also had the wheezy-type tar(1) |
| 20:29.51 | de-facto | nice the regex tar trick works pretty well thanks :)) |
| 20:29.52 | greycat | so, new in stretch |
| 20:29.53 | Tenkawa | yeah... thats diff |
| 20:30.05 | Tenkawa | brb... switching machines |
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| 20:39.16 | dka | Hi |
| 20:39.17 | dka | + gpg --keyserver keyserver.pgp.com --recv-keys 8FCCA13FEF1D0C2E91008E09770F7A9A5AE15600 |
| 20:39.17 | dka | gpg: requesting key 5AE15600 from hkp server keyserver.pgp.com |
| 20:39.17 | dka | gpg: keyserver timed out |
| 20:39.17 | dka | gpg: keyserver receive failed: keyserver error |
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| 20:39.21 | *** join/#debian dka (~code-is-a@master-sbg-01.kopaxgroup.com) |
| 20:39.22 | dka | hi |
| 20:39.44 | dka | I have issue with a build of a docker image of debian, when I try to add OpenGPG key, a keyserver is timing out |
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| 20:41.42 | SerajewelKS | probably a networking-level issue with the container? |
| 20:42.03 | dka | it can access the public internet without hassle except that key |
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| 20:42.27 | SerajewelKS | can you fetch it from another keyserver? |
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| 20:43.29 | dka | I wil try |
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| 20:46.30 | Tenkawa | uggh.. its still annoying you cant use llvm/clang to compile the kernel on x86/x86-64 yet |
| 20:46.56 | Tenkawa | works great on arm though |
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| 21:14.10 | JordiGH | Is it possible to install fonts for the Linux ttys that show all the fancy curses window decorations? |
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| 21:14.27 | JordiGH | At first I thought maybe it was a locale problem, but I'm pretty sure that's not it. |
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| 21:14.53 | SerajewelKS | in my experience it's usually TERM not set correctly |
| 21:15.34 | YottaiQ | Dear guys, the operation #SOSNicaragua needs help of all #Anonymous people, please do not leave us alone. Data here =>>https://pastebin.com/hBbEZLrK |
| 21:16.02 | JordiGH | Hm. |
| 21:16.52 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: No, it's the same TERM. |
| 21:17.08 | JordiGH | I really think that the tty just can't display those things, doesn't have a font for it. |
| 21:17.19 | SerajewelKS | same TERM as what? are you saying you changed the font and now line-drawing characters don't display, but they did previously? |
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| 21:18.13 | JordiGH | Wait, no. |
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| 21:18.32 | JordiGH | I saved the window curses characters to a file, catted the file from the tty, they show up correctly. |
| 21:18.49 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: So my tty says the terminal is xterm-color256. |
| 21:18.56 | JordiGH | Which I suppose is a lie. |
| 21:19.03 | JordiGH | So curses must be reading that TERM and trying to do something. |
| 21:19.04 | JordiGH | Hmmmm. |
| 21:19.13 | JordiGH | So what TERM do you think I should use instead? |
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| 21:21.01 | SerajewelKS | JordiGH: are you using a multiplexer like screen or tmux? |
| 21:21.09 | JordiGH | No. |
| 21:21.12 | JordiGH | Just a plain Linux tty. |
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| 21:22.43 | greycat | If you're on the Linux console, TERM should be linux. |
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| 21:23.05 | JordiGH | Just found that, thanks. |
| 21:23.12 | JordiGH | And yeah, that makes curses output the right characters there. |
| 21:23.27 | SerajewelKS | must have something in your profile or bashrc or something setting TERM? |
| 21:23.44 | greycat | (if you do, remove it!) |
| 21:23.51 | SerajewelKS | ^ |
| 21:24.18 | JordiGH | But I like it! |
| 21:24.26 | SerajewelKS | i occasionally have weird issues with screen, where screen thinks the outer terminal is something it isn't |
| 21:24.27 | JordiGH | Otherwise it doesn't default to 256 colors! |
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| 21:25.14 | SerajewelKS | don't you need framebuffers for 256 color support |
| 21:26.13 | SerajewelKS | as in, i don't think you even have 256 colors unless you're running fbterm |
| 21:26.23 | karlpinc | FWIW, I've told mincom I'm on a vt220 when on the linux console and it works. (used not to be entirely vt220 compatible.) |
| 21:27.13 | greycat | any given app (like minicom) may only use a fraction of the terminal's capability set |
| 21:27.29 | SerajewelKS | based on what i'm reading, the default linux VT does not support 256 colors. you need framebuffers + fbterm. |
| 21:27.39 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: I mean, i want 256 colour in my xterm. |
| 21:27.50 | SerajewelKS | JordiGH: ok so do that the right way |
| 21:28.01 | JordiGH | A bunch of if-thens? |
| 21:28.02 | JordiGH | Nah. |
| 21:28.03 | SerajewelKS | instead of bludgeoning every terminal you will ever use |
| 21:28.09 | JordiGH | I only ever use one terminal. |
| 21:28.17 | JordiGH | The tty was just trying to diagnose someone else's problem. |
| 21:28.22 | SerajewelKS | it sounds like you use the TTY or you wouldn't be asking |
| 21:28.33 | JordiGH | I have many reasons to ask! |
| 21:28.41 | JordiGH | My asking is unknowable! |
| 21:29.05 | JordiGH | C'mon, ya punk, try to ecks-whye this one, why dontcha, just try! |
| 21:29.14 | greycat | *plonk* |
| 21:29.21 | JordiGH | Man, again? |
| 21:29.24 | JordiGH | I was just kidding. |
| 21:29.37 | SerajewelKS | JordiGH: you can set this just for xterm in your terminfo file |
| 21:29.40 | JordiGH | I thought it sounded pretty obviouslly like a joke. |
| 21:30.05 | JordiGH | Is this gonna require learning something? |
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| 21:30.10 | greycat | 16:21 JordiGH> Just a plain Linux tty. |
| 21:30.18 | JordiGH | oh god, text. |
| 21:30.19 | JordiGH | https://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Text-Terminal-HOWTO-16.html |
| 21:30.19 | SerajewelKS | erm not terminfo |
| 21:30.23 | SerajewelKS | X resources |
| 21:30.24 | greycat | 16:27 JordiGH> SerajewelKS: I mean, i want 256 colour in my xterm. |
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| 21:30.47 | JordiGH | I can't tell if greycat can still hear me or not, but I use many things. |
| 21:30.48 | SerajewelKS | you just have to set the following X resource: XTerm.termName: xterm-256color |
| 21:31.01 | SerajewelKS | this tells xterm what to use without fucking the rest of your terminals |
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| 21:31.39 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: I don't actually have a problem with bludgeoning TERM, I don't know what xresources are, and I'm fine. I'm also fine knowing that I had the wrong TERM in a tty. It's not like I actually care about using ttys. |
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| 21:32.39 | JordiGH | Why is it that I can't just ask a question and get a precise answer for what I ask without everyone trying to diagnose my ulterior reason? |
| 21:32.42 | SerajewelKS | i mean it's literally just "echo XTerm.termName: xterm-256color >~/.Xresources" but whatever... |
| 21:32.55 | JordiGH | Indeed, whatever. |
| 21:33.02 | JordiGH | It's not something I understand. |
| 21:33.10 | JordiGH | Don't wanna have to maintain that someday. |
| 21:33.10 | SerajewelKS | you asked a question and it was revealed that your config is broken, so we're trying to help you fix it |
| 21:33.18 | JordiGH | Now, bludgeoning TERM, that's something I understand. |
| 21:33.28 | JordiGH | My config is fine, ttys are broken. :P |
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| 21:34.14 | Sleaker | xterm-256color breaks pagedown for me :( |
| 21:34.22 | Sleaker | have to switch back to xterm sometimes. |
| 21:34.43 | JordiGH | Can't say that's happened to me. |
| 21:34.53 | Sleaker | err not pagedown, break home/end when in less |
| 21:35.00 | SerajewelKS | JordiGH: hopefully you never have to ssh to this box :) |
| 21:35.01 | flux242 | could someone tell me who needs lintian? |
| 21:35.03 | Sleaker | not sure what setting to fix that. |
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| 21:35.35 | SerajewelKS | flux242: are you asking why it's useful, or are you asking what it does? |
| 21:35.35 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: Eh, I do from, other xterms. |
| 21:35.50 | JordiGH | flux242: Debian packagers, mostly. |
| 21:36.05 | JordiGH | flux242 is obviously asking who needs it. I thought the question was pretty unambiguous. |
| 21:36.13 | Sleaker | .Xresources wont get sourced from .bashrc/.profile so it's fine? |
| 21:36.19 | greycat | SerajewelKS: don't forget how he outright lied to us up front |
| 21:36.22 | SerajewelKS | "who needs X" can sometimes be interpreted as "what is X even good for" |
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| 21:36.35 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: If they want that interpretation, I'm sure they'll request it. |
| 21:36.50 | greycat | Sleaker: it's not a shell syntax file anyway, so you can't source it from a shell. It's used as input to xrdb -merge, normally. |
| 21:36.51 | SerajewelKS | Sleaker: .Xresources isn't even a shell script. it's not remotely the same syntax. |
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| 21:37.18 | greycat | One typically arranges to run xrdb -merge ~/.Xresources from one of the X dot files |
| 21:37.23 | flux242 | so why is this shit is installed on everybodys machines? |
| 21:37.31 | flux242 | by default |
| 21:37.34 | JordiGH | flux242: aptitude why lintian |
| 21:37.40 | JordiGH | That will you tell why that shit is there. |
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| 21:37.47 | greycat | unless xrdb gets run by default in Debian... I've lost track :( |
| 21:38.10 | greycat | Ah, it's in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/30x11-common_xresources |
| 21:38.22 | JordiGH | flux242: In my case, it's javahelper --depends--> devscripts --recommend--> lintian |
| 21:38.23 | Sleaker | greycat: right. |
| 21:38.36 | SerajewelKS | greycat: many default .xinitrc files will do that too, IIRC |
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| 21:38.58 | Sleaker | just forgetting cause I don't use .Xresources very much haha. I think we manually do some xrdb -merge junk somewhere though |
| 21:39.19 | greycat | You have to know to run the -merge yourself by hand if you edit the file and don't want to restart your X session. |
| 21:39.33 | JordiGH | SerajewelKS: You see, old friend, flux242 didn't wnat to know what this shit was, apparently just wants to know why it's taking up space. I infer (but wouldn't dare assume to be correct) that the goal is to remove lintian and forget about it. |
| 21:39.41 | greycat | So, it's a thing that most Debian users *should* learn eventually. |
| 21:40.37 | SerajewelKS | i've personally never needed to edit an X resource, but that's just me |
| 21:41.02 | SerajewelKS | most of the stuff i tend to use has other, more mature-but-heavy configuration systems, like gconf |
| 21:41.15 | SerajewelKS | maybe mature is the wrong term |
| 21:41.21 | Sleaker | we have some oldschool terminal apps where we have to merge in key overrides |
| 21:41.47 | Sleaker | so we have a key mapping xrdb file we merge in whenever the bash script gets run and then it pops open an xterm window with everything all setup. |
| 21:41.49 | SerajewelKS | "feature-laden" |
| 21:42.18 | JordiGH | anyway, thanks for help me figure out what the right TERM should be for a TTY. |
| 21:42.21 | Sleaker | so it's useful for that I guess :shrug: |
| 21:42.23 | Tenkawa | cringes at his research he's preparing to do for a laptop replacement... to actually be able to play games and be dual bootable |
| 21:42.35 | Sleaker | Tenkawa: why is that cringeworthy? |
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| 21:42.56 | Sleaker | I think the question is as simple as does it support non-locked UEFI |
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| 21:43.08 | Tenkawa | Sleaker: just been a long time since I've checked out laptops |
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| 21:43.13 | Tenkawa | haaaa |
| 21:43.19 | Tenkawa | hardly anything does |
| 21:43.24 | Sleaker | Tenkawa: k, well the biggest issue you'll run into is non-legacy BIOS + locked UEFI |
| 21:43.35 | Tenkawa | well actually... |
| 21:44.00 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: system76 laptops are built for linux but aren't cheap |
| 21:44.03 | Sleaker | but companies might not do that a whole lot yet except on the super cheapo playforms. |
| 21:44.04 | Tenkawa | thats not 100% true.. I have a dell and an hp sitting in front of me uefi that arent lliocked |
| 21:44.05 | Sleaker | platforms* |
| 21:44.27 | Tenkawa | I've got a pretty good budget allocated |
| 21:44.36 | Sleaker | what's the issue then? driver support? |
| 21:44.42 | Sleaker | nvidia or bust imo. |
| 21:45.02 | SerajewelKS | Tenkawa: whatever you do, fuck's sake don't get anything with dual GPUs |
| 21:45.02 | Tenkawa | I'm thinking going back to intel/nvidia |
| 21:45.12 | Sleaker | well that's a good idea. |
| 21:45.23 | Sleaker | intel/nvidia support has always been solid for me. |
| 21:45.24 | Tenkawa | yeah the dual gpu thing has bit me too many times |
| 21:45.53 | SerajewelKS | bumblebee or whatever it's called has way too many issues to be useful currently, at least as far as i've seen |
| 21:46.04 | Sleaker | bumblebee? |
| 21:46.16 | SerajewelKS | it's a tool that lets you run software under an alternate GPU |
| 21:46.17 | Sleaker | that a linux specific laptop |
| 21:46.18 | Sleaker | oh |
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| 21:46.31 | SerajewelKS | e.g. you can run your desktop on a low-power GPU then run games on the nvidia GPU |
| 21:46.41 | Tenkawa | I'd be running mine in dual boot |
| 21:46.53 | Sleaker | I think one of the few uses for dual GPU would be to use the second GPU inside of a virtualbox env in passthrough mode |
| 21:46.56 | SerajewelKS | but in practice it just doesn't work well. i have a coworker who tried to get it to work for weeks and it resulted in whole-system freezes and other very undesirable behavior. |
| 21:46.58 | Tenkawa | with the size of ssd's they offer |
| 21:47.03 | Sleaker | so you can run everything basically natively in the VM |
| 21:47.11 | greycat | !optimus |
| 21:47.12 | dpkg | The Bumblebee project aims to provide support for the Nvidia Optimus GPU switching technology on Linux systems. GeForce 400M (4xxM) and later mobile GPU series are Optimus-enabled; if «lspci -nn | grep '\''[030[02]\]'» returns two lines, the laptop likely uses Optimus. Packaged for Debian <jessie> and <wheezy-backports>. http://wiki.debian.org/Bumblebee http://bumblebee-project.org/ #bumblebee on irc.freenode.net. |
| 21:47.12 | Tenkawa | m.2 and all |
| 21:47.41 | SerajewelKS | i'm sure they're doing a good job developing the software but as of at least last year, it wasn't ready for daily use |
| 21:47.47 | Sleaker | sure |
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| 22:55.14 | urxtnw | Hello, the difference between apt and dpkg is that dpkg is the lowest level package manager, that doesnt know dependency resolution? |
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| 22:55.32 | urxtnw | so if I have a deb, I could easily install it with just dpkg if I know that's the only program I want, correct? |
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| 22:56.04 | BCMM | urxtnw: dpkg literally just installs and removes packages. apt does the rest |
| 22:56.19 | urxtnw | Thank you |
| 22:56.21 | BCMM | e.g. finding out which packages you might want to install, downloading packages, etc. |
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| 22:57.09 | urxtnw | BCMM so if I want to make something from source I make the package.deb and install it with dpkg correct? |
| 22:57.16 | BCMM | yes |
| 22:57.53 | urxtnw | BCMM I am very confused about apt, apt-get and aptitude, I keep reading articles about them and they are saying it isn't much difference, etc. |
| 22:57.55 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: you can also 'apt install ./thefile.deb' |
| 22:58.14 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: this is particularly useful if the package depends on other packages you don't have installed, as apt will install them for you |
| 22:58.31 | SerajewelKS | if you just 'dpkg -i thefile.deb' it will complain bitterly about the missing dependencies and then you have to 'apt -f install' anyway to fix them |
| 22:58.50 | BCMM | urxtnw: apt, apt-get and aptitude are mostly interchangeable interfaces to the same system |
| 22:59.07 | BCMM | urxtnw: you can just stick to `apt` commands for nearly everything on modern debian |
| 22:59.11 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: roughly speaking: apt is the new apt-get. aptitude is a way more powerful tool that even has a full-blown ncurses UI if you run it without any arguments. |
| 22:59.30 | urxtnw | but I remember at some point some article was saying how apt-get is the better than apt as it might be missing some things |
| 22:59.46 | SerajewelKS | none are 'better' |
| 22:59.50 | urxtnw | BCMM what is "nearly" everything |
| 22:59.56 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, I see |
| 23:00.06 | BCMM | well, aptitude has some unique search features i think |
| 23:00.20 | SerajewelKS | there's some stuff each one might have that the others don't. e.g. 'aptitude why' will tell you why a package was installed (manually, to satisfy some dependency, etc). |
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| 23:00.26 | SerajewelKS | apt and apt-get don't have this subcommand |
| 23:00.37 | SerajewelKS | 'apt search' is a thing but 'apt-get search' is not |
| 23:01.02 | SerajewelKS | they all kind of have their own subcommands and it's a bit annoying currently, but it's the way it is right now |
| 23:01.07 | BCMM | urxtnw: and of course there are also GUI frontends like synaptic. same deal, frontends to the same system. you can use one or many of them. |
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| 23:01.31 | urxtnw | "aptitude will automatically remove eligible packages, while apt-get needs a separate command to do so" << do they mean apt-get autoremove? |
| 23:01.51 | SerajewelKS | personally i prefer apt for simple 'apt install ___' commands, but i'll run aptitude's UI when i need to browse around a bit to figure out what i want to do. it's especially useful when i want to simultaneously uninstall some stuff and install other stuff. |
| 23:02.04 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: yes |
| 23:02.24 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, so you never use apt-get? |
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| 23:02.36 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, which debian are you using? |
| 23:03.03 | urxtnw | BCMM yeah definitely, was just curious about command line because I want to learn it well |
| 23:03.15 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: i rarely use apt-get. stretch on most of my systems but i manage 20+ servers. some are jessie for various reasons. |
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| 23:04.29 | SerajewelKS | i mostly use apt but find aptitudes UI very useful. it's very helpful when resolving dependency problems. |
| 23:04.34 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, I see. Any idea when I google stuff about installing that every ubuntu help user gives apt-get instead of apt? what is the difference in debian? |
| 23:04.47 | SerajewelKS | for complex dependency issues, apt will give you solution after solution. "how about this? no? okay, how about this?" |
| 23:04.59 | SerajewelKS | aptitude will let you try changing the selections manually and update the list of what's wrong |
| 23:05.00 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, you sold me on it, I'm going to install aptitude |
| 23:05.07 | BCMM | urxtnw: anyway, `apt` is sort of the official all-purpose frontend for day-to-day tasks, for now. it's basically just the most common functions of apt-get and apt-cache, made slightly more consistent and user-friendly |
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| 23:05.18 | urxtnw | I see |
| 23:05.30 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: apt-get has existed for much longer. apt is relatively new. |
| 23:05.45 | urxtnw | and aptitude is even newer? |
| 23:05.53 | SerajewelKS | apt-get is roughly "dawn of debian" years old. "apt" is new since... i think jessie? |
| 23:06.04 | SerajewelKS | no, aptitude has been around for a bit as well |
| 23:06.17 | SerajewelKS | a decade at least, i think |
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| 23:06.56 | BCMM | tbh i've never 100% understood why aptitude existed alongside apt-get |
| 23:07.01 | SerajewelKS | there was a time when it wasn't recommended to use aptitude for release upgrades but i'm not sure if that's still the case |
| 23:07.11 | SerajewelKS | BCMM: run 'aptitude' by itself and you'll see |
| 23:07.48 | BCMM | no, i know about the TUI thing, but i don't fully understand why all the CLI stuff it did was maintained separately rather than improving apt-cache or whatever |
| 23:08.07 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, but you can use apt-cache search to search, no? |
| 23:08.24 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: yes but my experience is that it doesn't do well with multiple-term searches |
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| 23:08.33 | urxtnw | on nvm, BCMM just wrote above that |
| 23:08.48 | SerajewelKS | aptitude's search is much more fine-grained. you can even search by other information like package state. |
| 23:08.56 | SerajewelKS | "show me the installed packages with foo in the description but not bar in the title" |
| 23:09.15 | SerajewelKS | that's a three-term search that apt-cache can't do |
| 23:09.19 | urxtnw | can't you do that with dpkg and grep? |
| 23:09.21 | BCMM | listing everything that's installed, but not currently available in sources is a *really* nice feature |
| 23:09.39 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: sure, if you are careful. you can also manually extract .debs by hand. |
| 23:09.42 | BCMM | if you ever want to clean up after manually building, installing and testing a bunch of stuff, for example |
| 23:10.02 | urxtnw | BCMM you're talking about aptitude? |
| 23:10.04 | SerajewelKS | urxtnw: tools exist to make tasks easier, not because they were previously impossible |
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| 23:10.05 | BCMM | yes |
| 23:10.15 | SerajewelKS | we could also use the abacus before computers |
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| 23:10.28 | BCMM | `aptitude search ~o` i think |
| 23:10.42 | urxtnw | makes sense, hahahaa abacus analogy |
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| 23:10.50 | SerajewelKS | BCMM: ah yes, what i used to call the "show me java" query |
| 23:11.08 | BCMM | SerajewelKS: heh, i just ran it to test and that's exactly what i was thinking |
| 23:11.26 | BCMM | like there's a few things i installed from individual .debs, and a whole lotta openjdk. what's the deal with that? |
| 23:12.41 | urxtnw | SerajewelKS, BCMM OMG, It even shows you randomly installed programs which is the most important thing ever! it's amazing! I installed a random driver for my scanner and I had no clue what it was called |
| 23:12.57 | urxtnw | and it literally showed it to me in obsolete and locally created packages |
| 23:13.13 | urxtnw | thank god I asked the question in the first place I learned a lot |
| 23:13.52 | BCMM | yeah, "obsolete" and "manually installed" are kind of logically the same category: stuff which is on the system, but *isn't* in debian's repos |
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| 23:15.20 | urxtnw | ok so now, I understand it, let me know if I got it right: apt-get is age old stuff built to manage dependencies from dpkg. dpkg is the most primitive package manager. then apt got written to incorporate apt-get stuff like apt-cache and add nicer features |
| 23:15.49 | urxtnw | and aptitude is even more powerfull and has the UI |
| 23:16.28 | MACscr | any recommended techniques besides diff for comparing php.ini files? I find diff to be a pain to read especially when most of the differences are simply ordering or spacing, etc. Trying to make sure I make the appropriate changes to the newer version of php. |
| 23:17.15 | zeropoint | urxtnw: apt was designed for interactive usage. apt-get and the underlying utilities are better for automation. At least, that's my understanding. |
| 23:17.25 | zeropoint | And aptitude, I've not used in years. |
| 23:17.35 | BCMM | urxtnw: oh, also apt is specifically a human-usable program. it has absolutely no guarantee of interface stability from release to release, and scripts should continue to use apt-get/apt-cache directly |
| 23:17.36 | MACscr | apt and apt-get are different? |
| 23:17.37 | apt | ...but and apt-get is already something else... |
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| 23:18.12 | BCMM | MACscr: confusingly, apt is the name of the packaging system, and *also* the name of a relatively recent front-end to that system |
| 23:18.12 | MACscr | nvm, i jumped in late |
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| 23:19.18 | urxtnw | BCMM what do you mean about guarantee interface stability? |
| 23:19.37 | BCMM | urxtnw: basically, don't use it in scripts because its output might be formatted slightly differently next week |
| 23:19.45 | urxtnw | ah I see |
| 23:19.55 | BCMM | it's explicitly not intended to be machine-readable |
| 23:19.59 | urxtnw | that's what zeropoint was saying as well I think |
| 23:20.07 | BCMM | like parsing ls |
| 23:20.09 | urxtnw | BCMM you mean the output, yes? |
| 23:20.15 | BCMM | probably the flags too? i dunno |
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| 23:24.10 | BCMM | anyway the apt man page explains why it exists pretty well |
| 23:27.38 | agio | hi, does anyknow if debian has info about managing a PHP/nginx webserver setup? https://wiki.debian.org/PHP is pretty sparse on info. Im looking for something more in-depth on how to install configure, add and remove modules etc |
| 23:27.48 | urxtnw | BCMM, thank you very much, I really need to remember to always read the man pages! |
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| 23:34.02 | urxtnw | BCMM, what is your opinion on snaps, and what is this thing? it's like an endless package manager playground |
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| 23:35.08 | BCMM | urxtnw: negative, to the point that i feel like i'm not a sufficiently neutral source for such an answer :) |
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| 23:35.56 | BCMM | i go so far as to say that its proponents don't fully understand why distros exist |
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| 23:36.07 | urxtnw | BCMM is it like a google playstore similar to the AUR in arch linux? |
| 23:36.27 | joepublic | I'll try a positive spin. Most package managers (apt included) tend to install one and only one version of a given system library. But snaps give you the amazing freedom to package your application with whatever libraries you want in a handy package that the end user can install in its own space. |
| 23:36.49 | urxtnw | is that like sandboxing? |
| 23:37.02 | agio | isn't snaps a scheme for having self-contained "monolithic" packages - which exist outside of the main apt based packaging system? |
| 23:37.03 | BCMM | urxtnw: snaps are "self-contained", i.e. they don't depend on anything except the snap system itself |
| 23:37.05 | joepublic | there is slight overlap in the ideas, sure. |
| 23:37.36 | jmcnaught | agio: there's also docs that come with packages in /usr/share/doc, and larger software that is split into multiple packages (like nginx) will usually have a -doc package. You'll probably want to use php-fpm to connect nginx to php |
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| 23:38.24 | urxtnw | ah I see |
| 23:38.36 | BCMM | urxtnw: so whereas a debian package that needs some library to function expresses that by "depending" on that library, so that apt will automatically install that library when it installs the package; |
| 23:38.47 | BCMM | urxtnw: a snap just packages the library in with the snap |
| 23:38.59 | BCMM | two snaps that both need the same library? two copies of the library |
| 23:39.13 | BCMM | that's two copies on disk, and two copies to worry about updating when a security problem is discovered in that library |
| 23:39.15 | joepublic | under snaps, if you have 20 programs that all require the library "whatever", you get 20 copies of the library "whatever". |
| 23:39.26 | BCMM | so basically like how applications ship their own dlls on windows :) |
| 23:39.40 | agio | jmcnaught: thanks but this info is needed before you install, right? e.g. how do you determine the versioning system debian uses to distinguish between PHP 7.X and earier versions ? |
| 23:40.57 | jmcnaught | agio: I don't know what you mean about distinguishing between versions, but Debian stable only has PHP 7.0 available in it, and most package names will start with php7.0 |
| 23:41.24 | agio | snaps have nothing to do with containers, LXD - is that right? they are only a packaging scheme? |
| 23:41.27 | BCMM | we've already seen what happens when application developers just package their own applications, with all dependancies included. it's windows. |
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| 23:41.51 | urxtnw | BCMM that makes sense, thank you1 |
| 23:41.58 | BCMM | we all knew the problems that causes before snap existed... |
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| 23:42.25 | BCMM | agio: snapd does have a sandboxing system |
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| 23:43.03 | urxtnw | BCMM, I must go, appreciate the knowledge, I learned a lot |
| 23:43.28 | agio | BCMM interesting |
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| 23:43.48 | BCMM | and that's a good idea, in many ways. but it seems like people *usually* choose it for more packaging-related reasons (availability of bleeding-edge versions, perceived "officialness" of snaps distributed directly by upstream, etc.). and i don't particularly agree with any of those reasons. |
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| 23:45.17 | BCMM | approaches like snap are *probably* a good idea for running proprietary software. but i feel like other, similar systems have mostly won out over snap in that sphere. |
| 23:46.10 | urxtnw | BCMM such as? what systems? |
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| 23:46.12 | BCMM | (it's also got the "only exists because existing solutions didn't belong to Canonical" mark against it) |
| 23:46.23 | BCMM | flatpak; appimage |
| 23:47.22 | agio | jmcnaught: I thought debian had a change to their name policy when PHP 7 came out. i.e. previously packages were named like "php5-fpm, php5-cli" etc, but now its just "php-cli" and the package will just give you the latest version? but my general question is - does debian publish info on how they have organised all this? |
| 23:47.30 | BCMM | both substantially the same concept as snaps; self-contained packages with a degree of sandboxing that's somewhere short of a full-on container or vm |
| 23:48.12 | BCMM | well, appimage isn't sandboxed in and off itself, iirc. but it's readily suitable for sandboxing. |
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| 23:49.37 | agio | is appimage another self-contained monolithic packaging scheme? |
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| 23:50.50 | BCMM | agio: basically that, yes |
| 23:51.28 | Klaus_Dieter | BCMM: given package management including dependency resolution I do not at all understand why snap even exists. |
| 23:52.04 | BCMM | Klaus_Dieter: my rather biased take is "because some people basically don't like distros and distro maintainers" |
| 23:52.27 | BCMM | always getting between them and up-to-date software, etc. |
| 23:52.35 | Klaus_Dieter | so what? they think they on their own can do a better job than the large distro teams? |
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| 23:52.50 | Klaus_Dieter | this is possible but doubtful. |
| 23:53.28 | BCMM | Klaus_Dieter: the windows model where you download a package from a projects website and install it, and it just works, does have obvious appeal to it |
| 23:53.39 | Klaus_Dieter | not it does not |
| 23:53.46 | Klaus_Dieter | nothing about this is good. |
| 23:54.07 | BCMM | whereas the work distros do, making stuff fit together nicely, and get securely updated, and not blow up for no reason, has less obviously visible benefits |
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| 23:54.52 | Klaus_Dieter | a) you get a different software upgrade mechanism for every software, b) you obtain the software in different places and have no way of checking authenticity c) the software is going to be huge because all deps have to be packaged in. |
| 23:55.12 | agio | Klaus_Dieter: sometimes the large projects (e.g. debian) will not include the package into their archive - leaving the upstream dev's with no choice but to self-package |
| 23:55.45 | Klaus_Dieter | so what? they build their own package repo then and ship it in whatever experimental flavor of their favorite distribution |
| 23:55.50 | Klaus_Dieter | problem solved. |
| 23:55.52 | BCMM | right, but application developers want to get the latest version to users without having it poked and prodded and patched by distros, and users want to run that latest version. not everybody "gets" why the work linux distributions do is actually a good idea. |
| 23:56.48 | BCMM | to be clear, i don't think it's generally worth it, but the motivations are clear |
| 23:57.39 | Klaus_Dieter | application developers want that until they realize that it is great to have someone stare at the code and have a discussion with them about how to ease maintenance and how to ensure compatibility across versions. After the first few incompatibility nightmares the app developers do realize that it is worth having this conversation before getting angry users yell at them |
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| 23:58.10 | blackflow | lol, no. they go ahead and invent snaps, appimages and flatpaks. |
| 23:58.14 | Klaus_Dieter | which reminds me - I have not packaged software for debian lately. Is it still checkinstall that does the ob? |
| 23:58.46 | Klaus_Dieter | blackflow: well in that case this is beyond me. Does not seem rational :) Maybe I am too old for this. |
| 23:58.54 | agio | check install is for installing self-compiled code |
| 23:59.10 | blackflow | Klaus_Dieter: there are pros and cons to both approaches. |
| 23:59.21 | agio | its deb_helper and friends if you want to create your own pakage from source |
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| 23:59.56 | Klaus_Dieter | agio: well, my goal actually would be getting snapcastc into sid at one point |