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| 00:11.42 | awal1 | systemctl --failed |
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| 00:33.24 | Marz | is it possible to get nvidia prime working on debian? |
| 00:34.52 | Marz | i have a laptop with nvidia optimus |
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| 00:43.58 | jmcnaught | !bumblebee |
| 00:43.58 | dpkg | The Bumblebee project aims to provide support for the Nvidia Optimus GPU switching technology on Linux systems. GeForce 400M (4xxM) and later mobile GPU series are Optimus-enabled; if «lspci -nn | grep '\''[030[02]\]'» returns two lines, the laptop likely uses Optimus. Packaged for Debian <jessie> and <wheezy-backports>. http://wiki.debian.org/Bumblebee http://bumblebee-project.org/ #bumblebee on irc.freenode.net. |
| 00:44.05 | jmcnaught | Marz: ^^ |
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| 00:45.24 | Marz | nah not that |
| 00:45.29 | Marz | that works terrible |
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| 00:46.05 | Marz | there must be a way to get prime working like it does on ubuntu |
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| 01:20.05 | brutser | hi all! if i install debian stretch on my vps, i do a minimal install. how can make the installation more secure? i do encrypt lvm with install. - do i need to add grub password, any other things? is there a good security list around that covers all if not most topics regarding securing the box? |
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| 01:24.23 | rant | ,i harden-doc |
| 01:24.24 | judd | Package harden-doc (doc, extra) in stretch/amd64: useful documentation to secure a Debian system. Version: 3.18.1; Size: 5595.3k; Installed: 10772k; Homepage: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-howto/ |
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| 01:26.29 | rant | brutser: ^ |
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| 01:27.43 | rant | thats not been updated in 6.5 years, but still fairly relevant, though a lot has changed since then.. systemd, apparmor, etc |
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| 01:32.01 | Deihmos | debian not so good with updating their docs |
| 01:32.58 | rant | Deihmos is not so good with updating their docs |
| 01:33.31 | rant | Debian is supported by its users.. when the users don't do the work, the work don't happen :P |
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| 01:39.37 | brutser | probably, but usually there are much better tutorials out there in the wild that are not on the main debian pages |
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| 01:42.07 | brutser | i am not just expert enough to judge if they are good or not |
| 01:42.10 | brutser | so that is why i ask here |
| 01:44.15 | rant | the cake is a lie, is my answer. :D |
| 01:46.17 | rant | for any given cake recipie, there is just as easily someone out there putting metal files, dynamite, plastic explosive, whatever in such cakes.. |
| 01:46.38 | brutser | probably |
| 01:46.45 | brutser | but some cakes will be safe enough to eat |
| 01:46.49 | rant | security is an ideal.. one that needs to be carefully thought out on a case by case basis, audited, and adjusted routinely |
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| 01:52.10 | Marz | I installed bumblebee. Correct me if I am wrong but if I want to use the Nvidia card Iâll have to launch the app from terminal? |
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| 01:54.01 | rant | I believe thats the prime thing you were talking about that requires such nonsense |
| 01:55.25 | rant | was just reading up on it.. and talked about setting env vars on a per-app basis to use that prime crap |
| 01:57.34 | rant | https://wiki.debian.org/Bumblebee does mention use of optirun [options] <application> [application-parameters] |
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| 02:03.48 | rant | dpkg, custom launcher is <reply>If you need to run certain apps with a custom command-line in X, you can copy the app's .desktop file from /usr/share/applications/ to ~/.local/share/applications/ then edit this local file and modify the Exec= line. |
| 02:03.49 | dpkg | rant: okay |
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| 02:28.01 | paris_0 | how can I install clipgrab on debian |
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| 02:32.19 | rant | paris_0: dont bother? |
| 02:33.00 | rant | paris_0: I just fooled with that 4kdownloader thing today cause I wanted to download a whole channel on YT easily, and then realized it required a lisc that cost $15 to do it.. and found an easier way |
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| 02:34.01 | rant | paris_0: there are decent browser plugins for grabbing and converting video out there, and if you want something for YT outside the browser there are good options available for that too |
| 02:34.41 | rant | paris_0: its kinda offtopic here, you can /msg me if you'd like specifics |
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| 02:35.20 | jelly | ,v youtube-dl |
| 02:35.21 | judd | Package: youtube-dl on amd64 -- jessie-backports: 2017.05.18.1-1~bpo8+2; stretch: 2017.05.18.1-1; stretch-backports: 2019.01.17-1~bpo9+1; buster: 2019.01.17-1; sid: 2019.01.17-1; buster-multimedia: 2019.01.24-dmo1; sid-multimedia: 2019.01.27-dmo1 |
| 02:35.37 | jelly | !stretch-backports |
| 02:35.37 | dpkg | Some packages intended for Buster (Debian 10) but recompiled for use with Stretch (Debian 9) can be found in the stretch-backports repository. See http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . Ask me about <bdo>, <backports>. |
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| 02:38.26 | rant | youtube-dl is highly problematic for most people cause not only does it have the technical debt of a rather confusing command-line operation, but its also outdated and non-functional in stable. I had easier options in mind, but they're slightly less debian ways of doing things |
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| 03:21.49 | jcb2016 | how do you upgrade a package? |
| 03:22.01 | jcb2016 | sorry i just installed debain like 2 secs ago |
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| 03:23.37 | dvs | jcb2016, no excuse!! ;-) |
| 03:23.46 | jcb2016 | ok i will look :D |
| 03:23.48 | dvs | jcb2016, apt update |
| 03:23.53 | jcb2016 | yea i did that |
| 03:23.54 | dvs | then apt upgrade |
| 03:24.15 | dvs | That will update all packages that have newer versions |
| 03:25.28 | jcb2016 | dvs: i haven't edited my sources.list yet should i? |
| 03:25.44 | dvs | paste it so we can see |
| 03:25.48 | dvs | !pastebin |
| 03:25.49 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: http://paste.debian.net or https://0bin.net/ | pics/screenshots: http://file.io/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): http://file.io or http://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>. |
| 03:25.57 | dvs | use the first one |
| 03:25.59 | rant | jcb2016: the update refreshes your local package cache, which is a list of available packages, descriptions, etc.. and the upgrade command installs any newer packages available in that cache |
| 03:26.12 | dvs | I bet you used DVD-1 to do the install. |
| 03:26.23 | jcb2016 | i used a net install dvs |
| 03:26.28 | rant | jcb2016: or just cat /etc/apt/sources.list | nc termbin.com 9999 |
| 03:26.36 | dvs | Oh? That's a surprise |
| 03:26.44 | dvs | That should work out of the box |
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| 03:31.02 | jcb2016 | ok thanks rant |
| 03:32.27 | jcb2016 | dvs: or rant https://termbin.com/ieb9 |
| 03:33.16 | dvs | That looks right |
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| 03:33.43 | jcb2016 | dvs: don't i need nofree or something? |
| 03:33.44 | dvs | !stretch sources.list |
| 03:33.44 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main" "deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main". Be sure to run «apt update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <stretch/updates> <stretch-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list". |
| 03:33.50 | Marz | bumblebee seems to a dead project |
| 03:34.10 | dvs | jcb2016, if you want, you can put "contrib non-free" after "main" on those lines |
| 03:34.15 | rant | jcb2016: yes well I'd recommend uncommenting the #deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main and change instances of ftp.us.debian.org to deb.debian.org |
| 03:34.43 | jcb2016 | ok |
| 03:34.48 | rant | jcb2016: you can also comment the deb-src lines out and add contrib nonfree to the remaining lines and delete the extra lines |
| 03:35.20 | rant | commenting the deb-src lines will speed up your cache update, they are only required if you are going to use source code for something |
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| 03:40.48 | jcb2016 | brb sorry guys have to do something real quick |
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| 03:48.11 | jcb2016 | dvs: i want to run weechat version whatever is the newest i did upgdate and upgrade using apt and it seemed fine but the weechat version is still old #weechat told me to upgrade how do i upgrade when apt is up to date |
| 03:48.17 | rant | that nvidia optimus whiner never stays around long enough to do anything but complain and leave |
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| 03:48.40 | dvs | ,v weechat |
| 03:48.41 | judd | Package: weechat on amd64 -- wheezy: 0.3.8-1+deb7u1; wheezy-security: 0.3.8-1+deb7u3; jessie: 1.0.1-1+deb8u2; jessie-backports: 1.6-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1; stretch: 1.6-1+deb9u2; sid: 1.9-1; stretch-backports: 2.3-1~bpo9+1; buster: 2.3-1; sid: 2.3-1 |
| 03:48.53 | rant | jcb2016: upstream devs always want you to use the absolute latest version this isn't always possible in debian |
| 03:49.12 | jcb2016 | rant: yea i came from archlinux everything was new |
| 03:49.27 | rant | jcb2016: latest weechat is 2.4, debian has 2.3 available |
| 03:49.41 | jcb2016 | rant: i have 1.6 o_O |
| 03:49.43 | dvs | debian prefers stable over new |
| 03:50.00 | jcb2016 | how do i get 2.3? |
| 03:50.04 | dvs | !bpo |
| 03:50.04 | dpkg | backports.debian.org (formerly backports.org) is an official repository of <backports> for the current stable (see <stretch backports>) and oldstable (<jessie backports>) distributions, prepared by Debian developers. Ask me about <backport caveat> and read http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/. See also <bdo kernel> <bdo mirrors> <bdo contents> <bdo list> <bdo bugs> <bdo xorg> <bdo NEW>. |
| 03:50.17 | rant | jcb2016: you need to enable backports in your sources ^^ |
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| 03:50.42 | dvs | !stretch backports |
| 03:50.43 | dpkg | Some packages intended for Buster (Debian 10) but recompiled for use with "Stretch" (9.x) can be found in the "stretch-backports" repository. See http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . A suitable line for your sources.list is "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-backports main". Also ask me about <bdo>. |
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| 03:53.31 | jcb2016 | how did you find the version was 2.3 the backports instructions just tells me how to install im looking at https://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ |
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| 03:55.04 | dvs | jcb2016, look at what dpkg said before you |
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| 03:55.37 | rant | anywho near as I can tell for that nvidia optimus whiner, while bumblebee may be stagnant for like 6.5 years, that prime shit never even was a project near as I can tell.. was a proof of concept more than 9 years ago, that never went anywhere |
| 03:58.36 | jcb2016 | dvs: 2.3-1~bpo9_1: all |
| 03:59.04 | rant | jcb2016: using the bot judd, which operates on the Ultimate Debian Database |
| 03:59.39 | rant | jcb2016: if you've enabled the sources in your sources.list apt -t stretch-backports install weechat |
| 04:00.40 | jcb2016 | how do i ask judd for commands? |
| 04:00.43 | rant | jcb2016: you will always need to specify with -t stretch-backports to get a backport.. this is done to prevent you from breaking your system by unintentionally upgrading to backports versions, all pakages |
| 04:00.52 | rant | jcb2016: /msg judd help |
| 04:01.22 | rant | jcb2016: in fact just /j #debian-bots and I'll show you :P |
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| 04:19.41 | rant | jcb2016: really the key difference between Free Open Source software and commercial software is community, and the differece between various distros is that community's priorities. I am a Debian user because Debian's priorities are my priorities. |
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| 04:23.28 | rant | dpkg, no, welcome is <reply>Welcome to #debian, the larger but unofficial support channel for Debian GNU/Linux stable releases. Official channels have moved to OFTC (irc.oftc.net) see https://wiki.debian.org/IRC for a complete list. If you are new to Debian see https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian and https://www.debian.org/social_contract.en.html if these sound good to you, then, welcome to the Debian |
| 04:23.28 | dpkg | okay, rant |
| 04:23.34 | rant | community! |
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| 04:31.59 | jcb2016 | rant: can i pm you? |
| 04:32.05 | rant | sure |
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| 06:37.09 | quesker | I don't have a debian box handy. is /bin/sh dash? |
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| 06:39.08 | pipedream | /bin/sh: symbolic link to dash |
| 06:39.15 | pipedream | (on stretch) |
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| 06:43.14 | quesker | thanks |
| 06:43.50 | rant | chuckles at the ENV=$HOME/.shinit in the dash manpage |
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| 06:44.26 | rant | "shinit" is just a fancy way of saying "shit".. like "shiznit" |
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| 10:39.35 | uio | Hi, ethernet keeps kicking off wifi in network manager. How can I solve this? |
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| 10:47.36 | jpw | uio, check bios first. then i think rfkill can be used to resolve that behaviour |
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| 11:51.32 | wjwiz | hello, ive just installed debian 9.8 i386 netinst to an embedded device sucessfully but it goes to a black screen after the grub boot, ive tried nomodeset and nosplash with no differences in results. Anyone know where to go from there? |
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| 12:12.24 | kreyren | there seems to be packaging issue with firefox-esr which is shipped broken on https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ meaning that firefox is lagging and doesn't recognize 'enter' in search bar.. should i report it? |
| 12:12.42 | kreyren | fixed the issue by removing firefox and re-installing it.. |
| 12:13.08 | areyouloco | wjwiz: try with boot option 'single' to try to boot into console. it will check if it's a xserver issue or something with the kernel |
| 12:13.11 | petn-randall | wjwiz: You can remove the 'quiet' parameter from the grub boot setting. |
| 12:13.47 | wjwiz | when i installed i didnt install xorg by the way, i didnt have any intention of using it |
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| 12:16.08 | wjwiz | just tried single with same results too |
| 12:16.50 | kreyren | nwm the issue is present again |
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| 12:26.50 | wjwiz | you can see the boot info here https://youtu.be/m3hvxy1_v5s |
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| 12:28.44 | wjwiz | oh i just realized the quality on that is very poor |
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| 12:31.06 | wjwiz | heres a higher quality version https://youtu.be/CpvhuLYmvPU |
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| 12:32.22 | kreyren | wjwiz: what is expected? |
| 12:32.35 | kreyren | ah someone else is helping you already.. ignore me |
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| 12:32.55 | wjwiz | at the end of that it should boot into a login screen? by the monitor says no signal |
| 12:34.45 | wjwiz | but" |
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| 13:00.05 | jken | The kernel source has #define IWL7265D_UCODE_API_MAX29 |
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| 13:02.55 | Bjornn | !sid |
| 13:02.55 | dpkg | extra, extra, read all about it, sid is the codename for <unstable>, named after the kid in Toy Story that breaks toys. The great thing about running sid is that when it breaks, you get to keep ALL the pieces!! |
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| 13:06.57 | kreyren | Bjornn: sid != busted assuming it was on me |
| 13:07.00 | kreyren | *buster |
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| 13:11.42 | Bjornn | ok. |
| 13:11.57 | Bjornn | I'm just trying to figure out what the next version will be called. |
| 13:12.11 | Bjornn | I read the sid docs, it says it will never be a release, only for testing |
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| 13:13.15 | Bjornn | also, I'm looking at the topic about 9.8 stretch. |
| 13:13.37 | Bjornn | How do I know my version. I don't get the minor number when I query it. just a v 9 |
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| 13:13.57 | n4dir | cat /etc/debian_version , or such |
| 13:15.49 | Bjornn | cat /etc/issue = Debian GNU/Linux 9 \n \l |
| 13:16.01 | Bjornn | I update regularly. |
| 13:16.10 | Bjornn | I don't get a minor rev number |
| 13:17.58 | Bjornn | cat /etc/os-release gives more info. no minor rev number |
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| 13:18.49 | themill | because the minor revision is pretty much irrelevant (and you've already been told how to find it) |
| 13:19.10 | Bjornn | well, that's interesting |
| 13:19.35 | themill | not really |
| 13:19.43 | Bjornn | no I mean you being rude |
| 13:19.47 | Bjornn | thanks. |
| 13:20.32 | Bjornn | cat /etc/debian_version |
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| 13:23.54 | wjwiz | anyone got any clue with my issue? |
| 13:24.02 | jaggz | how do I find out what library is being loaded when I get this: "vim: error while loading shared libraries: li`a*so�2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" ? |
| 13:24.34 | jaggz | I feel like my raspberry pi's sdcard is corrupt, but want to try to reinstall a lib or whatever |
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| 13:25.19 | themill | jaggz: you could have a look at the output of "ldd /usr/bin/vim" |
| 13:25.29 | jaggz | themill, good idea thanks |
| 13:25.58 | themill | but that does sound like later lazy loading and ldd won't look at that |
| 13:26.02 | jaggz | themill, looks like vim itself is corrupt.. "li`a*so�2 => not found" |
| 13:26.25 | jaggz | (among all the other found libs it lists) |
| 13:26.30 | themill | lovely |
| 13:26.49 | greycat | sounds like a good time to (1) go to the correct channel, and (2) reinstall vim, and/or (3) reinstall everything |
| 13:27.02 | themill | for the cost of an sd card, that one is probably headed to the bin |
| 13:28.33 | jaggz | I just replaced it last year.. hrm. |
| 13:28.51 | jaggz | anyway.. thanks. |
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| 13:32.46 | jaggz | reboot after a forcefsck fixed it |
| 13:32.55 | jaggz | reboot without the fsck did not fix it |
| 13:33.19 | greycat | Are you running sysvinit? If not: how did you manage to force an fsck? |
| 13:33.32 | jaggz | touch /forcefsck ? |
| 13:33.40 | greycat | "How to do the equivalent of /forcefsck under systemd" is one of our big wishlist items. |
| 13:34.09 | jaggz | really? maybe it didn't run |
| 13:35.36 | rafalcpp | if I manually install other version of foo, like foo-9.0, that delivers binary /usr/bin/foo-9.0 how to make command "foo" alias it? |
| 13:35.37 | jaggz | yeah.. it did not. Last checked: Mon Apr 10 02:57:33 2017 |
| 13:35.50 | rafalcpp | I could manually create symlink as /usr/bin/foo but is there a better way |
| 13:36.19 | greycat | If you're manually installing third party binary packages that write in /usr/bin/ then you are already in trouble. |
| 13:36.44 | greycat | At some point there will be a collision between a filename from one of these suckers, and from a Debian package. |
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| 13:37.23 | greycat | To give a more direct answer: make your symlink from /usr/local/bin/foo instead. |
| 13:37.47 | themill | a long and complciated dance with alternatives and diversions is also possible |
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| 13:39.25 | rafalcpp | greycat: it's not 3rd party, it's in repo |
| 13:39.59 | z8z | Debian will abandon support for eclipse IDE? |
| 13:40.06 | greycat | OK, stop being vague and confusing. WHAT package, WHAT repository, WHAT file. |
| 13:40.29 | themill | z8z: eclipse has not been maintained for quite a while, yes. |
| 13:40.57 | rafalcpp | dpkg: clang-format-6.0 |
| 13:40.57 | dpkg | wish i knew, rafalcpp |
| 13:41.41 | rafalcpp | oh it's from backports. anyway it is clang-format-6.0 |
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| 13:42.19 | rafalcpp | stretch-backports. binary name is /usr/bin/clang-format-6.0 and I want it available as just "clang-format" |
| 13:42.19 | greycat | ,v clang-format-6.0 |
| 13:42.20 | judd | Package: clang-format-6.0 on amd64 -- stretch-backports: 1:6.0-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1:6.0.1-10; sid: 1:6.0.1-10 |
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| 13:42.39 | greycat | ln -s /usr/bin/clang-format-6.0 /usr/local/bin/clang-format |
| 13:43.04 | rafalcpp | can't this be done using diversions or something? |
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| 13:49.43 | themill | rafalcpp: if the maintainer hasn't provided that machinery (as is the case for things like gcc, g++, python, etc), then that's normally for a reason -- it's not compatible enough and breakage would follow. |
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| 13:51.52 | ayekat | also the llvm ecosystem isn't particularly known not to break stuff between releases... |
| 13:52.04 | ayekat | (well, compatibility related stuff, I mean) |
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| 14:02.24 | colo-work | can anyone in here confirm that chromium 72.0.3626.96-1~deb9u2 fixes the headless browsing mode issues for them? |
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| 14:10.13 | wjwiz | hello, ive just installed debian 9.8 i386 netinst to an embedded device sucessfully but it goes to a black screen after the grub boot, ive tried nomodeset and nosplash with no differences in results. Anyone know where to go from there? |
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| 14:10.56 | colo-work | boot it with a serial console attached or netconsole and see what's happening |
| 14:11.00 | wjwiz | any way i can make it write logs and then i can read it later from the hdd? |
| 14:11.26 | wjwiz | the device only has dvi out |
| 14:11.48 | wjwiz | read it later using a live cd? |
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| 14:16.25 | wjwiz | ill try it with a netconsole... |
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| 14:38.40 | uio | Hi, using Kupfer, but it won't find certain files. How can I fix this? |
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| 14:39.23 | uio | I looked in the catalogue part and it is in a listed directory, so it should be found. |
| 14:39.47 | uio | Kupfer used to find this same file, but then it just stopped. For no reason. |
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| 14:45.25 | sk_tandt | Greetings everyone! I'm trying to build a package for a systemd service I'm building |
| 14:45.56 | sk_tandt | I followed https://wiki.debian.org/Packaging/Intro, but I'm getting an error that Google doesn't seem to pinpoint to a cause |
| 14:46.12 | sk_tandt | "dh_autoreconf: Can only be run once, see dh-autoreconf(7)" |
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| 14:46.30 | sk_tandt | (I went as far as running debuild -us -uc) |
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| 14:56.11 | grharry | Compromised?? In one of my servers running apache I see a process [kthrtld] which has a TCP connection to some server in Holland and the apache2 server shows a defunt status! Anybody seen something similar ? |
| 14:57.15 | greycat | processes with [k*] names are usually internal kernel thingies |
| 14:58.17 | grharry | hm |
| 14:58.23 | greycat | Are you sure it's [kthrtld] and not [kthrotld]? |
| 14:58.27 | grharry | yes |
| 14:58.34 | grharry | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:58.48 | grharry | with a tcp connection to someplace! |
| 14:59.00 | greycat | Well, that does seem suspicious. |
| 14:59.24 | grharry | thing is ... this happens inside a vm LXC .. |
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| 15:02.16 | colo-work | grharry, is where does /proc/$thatprocessespid/exe symlink to? |
| 15:02.21 | colo-work | s/is // |
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| 15:04.52 | grharry | exe -> /var/tmp/giwujt |
| 15:04.54 | grharry | aha |
| 15:05.03 | grharry | and |
| 15:05.11 | grharry | exe -> /var/tmp/giwujt (deleted) |
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| 15:06.49 | grharry | re-killed it and |
| 15:06.51 | grharry | exe -> /var/tmp/dnqpeh (deleted) |
| 15:06.58 | grharry | changes exe name |
| 15:07.05 | AlexNagy | woo, I'm getting to join a debian client to a AD domain :-D any special considerations I should know about in advance? Or just proceed as usual? |
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| 15:07.23 | greycat | What's its parent process? |
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| 15:09.20 | grharry | init |
| 15:09.21 | grharry | 1 |
| 15:09.29 | grharry | :) |
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| 15:09.46 | greycat | Yeah, well, it was worth a try. Seems they were clever enough to double-fork it. |
| 15:11.02 | greycat | But that makes me wonder what's respawning it when you kill it, and how it knows to respawn, since there's no active parent. |
| 15:11.16 | greycat | Maybe someone's polling for that open TCP connection? |
| 15:11.57 | colo-work | grharry, even though the original executable was deleted, you can still retrieve its text from that (broken) symlink |
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| 15:12.24 | colo-work | file -Ls - < /proc/thatpid/exe |
| 15:12.26 | colo-work | etc. |
| 15:13.04 | grharry | /dev/stdin |
| 15:13.09 | grharry | wow |
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| 15:14.59 | grharry | <PROTECTED> |
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| 15:15.55 | karlpinc | What's the story with email clients? I'm sending out plain text emails with the usual "> " prefix when replies are quoted and I'm getting back emails with all the quoted "> "s stripped out. This has been happening for a while. I suspect the remote side is often OS/X. Is there anything to be done? |
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| 15:16.29 | colo-work | karlpinc, start dropping h-bombs from low orbit |
| 15:16.53 | colo-work | other than that, I'm afraid we're trapped within the email landscape that just happens to have evolved |
| 15:16.55 | colo-work | :'( |
| 15:16.56 | karlpinc | I suspect it's the usual horrid HTML email pollution. |
| 15:17.31 | karlpinc | Come to think of it, it's also sometimes MS Windows on the other side. |
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| 15:17.59 | karlpinc | When I care, it's only a few specific people. I could tell them to change a setting if there was one to change. |
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| 15:46.26 | BCMM | karlpinc: isn't there a header that will let you check what the remote side is? |
| 15:46.33 | BCMM | or is that not a thing any more... |
| 15:47.03 | BCMM | anyway, are you worried that they're not seeing the quoting, or just that it's messing up the history when they quote it back to you? |
| 15:47.25 | BCMM | i guess the client is replacing the > with some sort of formatting when it displays it to the user, markdown-style |
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| 15:53.43 | uio | Hi, using Kupfer, but it won't find certain files. How can I fix this? |
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| 15:53.54 | uio | Kupfer used to find this same file, but then it just stopped. For no reason. |
| 15:53.59 | uio | The file is in a directory listed in the catalogue, so this makes no sense. |
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| 15:59.45 | karlpinc | BCMM: The other side is messing up the quoting when they reply, so it's difficult to tell who said what when. |
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| 16:01.35 | karlpinc | BCMM: The other side's email headers arn't explicit, but it is coming from outlook.com so.... (It's entirely too much to ask to expect Microsoft to take the evil out of their programs so....) |
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| 16:06.45 | BCMM | karlpinc: outlook.com doesn't set a User-Agent: ? |
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| 16:11.05 | karlpinc | BCMM: Not the email I'm looking at. The closest I get is a x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) |
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| 16:18.00 | SerajewelKS | i asked this before and didn't get an answer, maybe someone else is here now who knows |
| 16:18.19 | SerajewelKS | is there a way to get patch to ignore files that don't exist, without doing all of the other stuff that -f does? |
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| 16:19.25 | SerajewelKS | the use case is using patch to apply a software update, where the original distribution includes plugins that may have been deleted after install |
| 16:19.35 | SerajewelKS | i want patch to just skip those without error |
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| 16:20.47 | RoyK | SerajewelKS: couldn't find anything after a quick google, but I guess touch name/of/file would work |
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| 16:21.37 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: --force might work. |
| 16:21.39 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: but then the diff wouldn't apply and it would still complain |
| 16:21.50 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: "without doing all of the other stuff that -f does" ;) |
| 16:22.16 | RoyK | you could remove the package and install it again |
| 16:22.23 | RoyK | keep the config files somewhere else |
| 16:22.29 | SerajewelKS | it's not a package |
| 16:22.50 | SerajewelKS | the config files are kept as out-of-tree as possible |
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| 16:23.03 | RoyK | ok - so git checkout the files missing |
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| 16:23.07 | RoyK | then git pull |
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| 16:23.32 | outoftime | How to find out the name of pulse audio device for `mpd` config "audio_output" section? |
| 16:23.34 | RoyK | if it's git, that is |
| 16:23.44 | SerajewelKS | a git clone per installation is overkill in this situation; the goal is not to restore the missing plugins |
| 16:23.51 | SerajewelKS | the goal is for patch to not care that they are missing |
| 16:23.59 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I don't see anything else after looking at the man page. Time to send in a patch to patch. ;-) |
| 16:24.04 | RoyK | I didn't sayclone, I said checkout |
| 16:24.06 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: hrm |
| 16:24.15 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: checking out implies you have a local clone |
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| 16:24.28 | SerajewelKS | how are you gonna checkout without a .git |
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| 16:24.47 | RoyK | how did you lose the files? |
| 16:25.17 | SerajewelKS | the implementors uninstalled the plugins (which are optional) |
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| 16:25.35 | SerajewelKS | the files missing is _not_ an error condition |
| 16:25.50 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: There's always editing hunks out of the patch file. :-/ |
| 16:25.52 | uberwag | how can i setup automatic updates for security updates? i like this somewhat automated on my vps, do i dont have to remember to do this. |
| 16:26.01 | RoyK | SerajewelKS: if the files are missing, they can't be patched |
| 16:26.08 | SerajewelKS | i just don't know how to tell patch that. it seems there isn't a way to do that without also telling it that a bunch of other stuff also aren't errors (that i want to be errors) |
| 16:26.21 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: indeed. that's why i want to tell patch to ignore source files that are missing from disk. |
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| 16:27.14 | karlpinc | uberwag: There's the unattended-upgrades package. I don't know if it has an option for just security updates. If you want something more specific I think you have to script it yourself. (I did. Using a special sources.list file that's only got security repos. But why?) |
| 16:29.08 | RoyK | I guess the easiest way is to replace those files and then patch them and then again remove them or perhaps move them somewhere else |
| 16:29.12 | RoyK | 'patch' isn't too smart |
| 16:29.12 | uberwag | karlpinc: ok i will look at unattended-upgrades package |
| 16:29.12 | SerajewelKS | if the files are there, i want them to be updated. if they aren't there, i don't care. |
| 16:29.12 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: i had that thought too. not sure i want to undertake that amount of bash today. :) |
| 16:29.12 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: the problem is that patch will exit with an error if it can't find one of the source files. all i want to do is make it ignore the file and move on to the next, but there doesn't seem to be a patch option for that. |
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| 16:29.12 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: yeah |
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| 16:29.12 | SerajewelKS | RoyK: for some of the sites i've been just copying the original missing trees back. was hoping there was a better way. |
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| 16:29.12 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: It's probably easier to patch patch. |
| 16:29.12 | setuid | Something odd, when I use 'sudo apt-get -fuy --reinstall install foo.deb' where 'foo' already exists in /var/cache/apt/archives, apt re-downloads it remotely anyway. is there any way to force it to use the cached copy? |
| 16:29.32 | jhutchins_wk | setuid: How old is the cached copy? |
| 16:29.39 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: hmm |
| 16:29.45 | setuid | jhutchins_wk: seconds to minutes |
| 16:29.51 | uio | thanks |
| 16:30.03 | setuid | jhutchins_wk: I'm doing an idempotent script to tear down and rebuild an environment in a loop (not ci/cd, but siimilar) |
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| 16:30.58 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: (If you do patch patch, might be better to be more generic than just "does not exist". Ignore specific file system problems return codes. Although, since there's already a "ignore read-only files" (I think) maybe that covers all the use-cases. But maybe not, because there's also permission errors like can't get into the directory.) |
| 16:31.26 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc / RoyK: for reference, the patch script does a dry-run and only proceeds with the patch if the exit code was clean. this is why i need a switch that ONLY ignores missing original files and doesn't try to force its way through other problems. |
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| 16:31.57 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Seems it would be a useful feature for patch to have. |
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| 16:32.23 | SerajewelKS | yeah |
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| 16:32.35 | SerajewelKS | it seems to be a sub-case of --force. maybe we just need more granular force options. |
| 16:32.57 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: There wouldn't be such a shiny new feature in the latest patch version? |
| 16:32.58 | SerajewelKS | wait i'm not even sure --force does this |
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| 16:33.13 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I kinda think not. |
| 16:33.26 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: The man page is not entirely clear. |
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| 16:34.10 | SerajewelKS | i suppose there would have to be an exception for new files (where the original is /dev/null) |
| 16:34.17 | SerajewelKS | of course those won't exist |
| 16:36.26 | setuid | jhutchins_wk: interesting... 'apt' re-downloads' 'apt-get' uses the cached copy (same exact syntax for both) |
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| 16:36.58 | greycat | Ye gods. More reason for me to never use apt. |
| 16:37.14 | karlpinc | apt is just way too verbose |
| 16:37.14 | greycat | Well, not like I hadn't already chosen that for all the other reasons. |
| 16:37.51 | karlpinc | (With multi-line output that can't be parsed.) |
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| 16:44.51 | AlexNagy | Hey, here's an odd issue. I'm booting from DVD 1 of the 9.8 iso just fine, but once within the install it cannot detect the dvd drives at all. |
| 16:47.16 | uberwag | will ipv6 disabling in 70-disable-ipv6.conf be respected after a reboot? what is the way to fully disable ipv6 on d9? |
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| 16:48.11 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Sounds like a non-free firmware issue. Did you install with the unoffical installers which include non-free firmware? |
| 16:48.45 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Looks through dmesg and the logs and see if there are any firmware messages. |
| 16:49.12 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Either that or install a newer kernel from the backports repo, if there is one. |
| 16:49.13 | AlexNagy | The detect cdrom process errors out saying no common cdrom drive was detected. // No, but it looks like a generic dvd rom on an older Dell Optiplex (755). // Alright, thanks karlpinc |
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| 16:50.17 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: If it's an older box then it's not likely to be fixed by a newer kernel. |
| 16:51.08 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: I suppose it could also be a driver issue, as in there's a driver that didn't get installed. But that's not supposed to happen. |
| 16:51.54 | AlexNagy | hrm, let me see how old the 755s are. I figured, though, that at the very least dvd/cd rom drivers are fairly generic and should work for most hardware? I know you can't support older stuff forever, however. I'm not seeing anything that looks like a firmware issue. |
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| 16:53.15 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Is this as root or as your user? See: zless /usr/share/doc/base-passwd/users-and-groups.txt.gz |
| 16:53.34 | AlexNagy | This is from the console of the installer (F2 console) |
| 16:53.47 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Linux pretty much supports older stuff forever. |
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| 16:54.38 | t3st3r | <karlpinc> AlexNagy: Linux pretty much supports older stuff forever. <- not to be taken as granted. Only as long as someone is going to support it. |
| 16:54.48 | AlexNagy | Oh yeah, you can always find older copies of distro's, even if not maintained. I've heard of at least FreeBSD (I know, Unix, not Linux) discontinuing support for x-number-of-years old hardware. Don't know if that had made it over to Linux distro's |
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| 16:56.26 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: IDE? Make sure there's nothing wonky with master/slave going on with jumpers etc. |
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| 16:56.48 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: (Which does not explain why the installer worked.) |
| 16:57.18 | AlexNagy | (hence my confusion) it's sata *double checks* |
| 16:57.47 | AlexNagy | yeah, sata |
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| 16:58.51 | greycat | maybe the kernel can't find the SATA devices because of some weird driver thing |
| 16:58.59 | AlexNagy | It's finding the usb hubs/ports, may try that route |
| 17:00.33 | AlexNagy | could be. one drive is dvd-rom/cd-rom, the other (which doesn't show on boot despite being powered, so may not be connected on sata data) is dvd-rw/cd-rw // really weird |
| 17:01.23 | AlexNagy | dmesg is showing the dvd rom just fine |
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| 17:01.51 | AlexNagy | ATAPI: TSSTcorpDVD-ROM TS-H353B, D200, max UDMA/33 |
| 17:02.08 | karlpinc | ,kernel |
| 17:02.09 | judd | Available kernel versions are: experimental: 4.20.0-trunk-686-pae (4.20-1~exp1); sid: 4.19.0-3-686-pae (4.19.20-1); buster: 4.19.0-2-686-pae (4.19.16-1); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.2-686 (4.19.16-1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.9.0-8-686-pae (4.9.144-3); jessie-backports: 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.8-686-pae (4.9.110-3+deb9u5~deb8u1); wheezy- |
| 17:02.10 | judd | backports: 3.16.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae (3.16.39-1+deb8u1~bpo70+1); wheezy: 3.2.0-6-686-pae (3.2.102-1) |
| 17:02.46 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: You could always try the kernel from backports. (The installer does not necessarily use the same kernel as what is installed.) |
| 17:04.18 | AlexNagy | do I configure that as an argument in the advanced menu form the installer? |
| 17:04.28 | AlexNagy | s/form/from |
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| 17:08.17 | AlexNagy | sr0 would be the optical drive, right? 'tag#0 FAILED Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driver_byte=DRIVER_SENSE' / 'tag#0 Sense Key : Medium Error [current]' / 'tag#0 Add. Sense : No seek complete' / 'tag#0 CDB: Read(10) 28 00 00 23 04 00 00 00 40 00' / 'blk_update_request: I/O error, dev sr0, sector 9179136' (I'll check for fingerprints) |
| 17:08.27 | karlpinc | AlexNagy: Go to backports.debian.org and follow the instructions. (You can have more than one kernel installed, so just boot from the backports one once it's installed.) |
| 17:08.39 | AlexNagy | karlpinc, thanks |
| 17:08.40 | AlexNagy | (: |
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| 17:10.58 | outoftime | Can someone help me with `mpd` + `ncmpcpp` troubleshooting? |
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| 17:11.52 | karlpinc | !ask |
| 17:11.53 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
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| 17:16.33 | AlexNagy | I may have 'fixed' it. when it failed to auto detect it asked for manual driver installation (declined) or manual pointing to device (selected). instead of it pointing to /dev/cdrom (default) entered in /dev/sr0 and it seems to be working (it looks like it's scanning the disc now). |
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| 17:18.24 | wjwiz | exit |
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| 17:22.04 | AlexNagy | karlpinc, yeah, that 'fix' seemed to work, installation progressing. |
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| 17:28.31 | uberwag | i have a debian vps where i just want to install openvpn, i want the box to be secure though, do i need to install selinux? |
| 17:28.49 | uberwag | or apparmor? |
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| 17:29.41 | ksk | totally depends on what you define as secure. but its not like just installing openvpn will make your server somehow insecure |
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| 17:30.22 | ksk | I think both selinux and apparmor require extensive work to be rolled out. |
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| 17:38.42 | t3st3r | speaking for myself I would consider putting vpn to vm/container, as bare minimum, chopping vpn access using systemd features sounds like good idea. |
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| 17:42.02 | uberwag | ksk: i installed minimal debian, with openvpn only. the admin control is protected with 2FA |
| 17:42.12 | uberwag | i just installed simple ufw and allow the openvpn port |
| 17:42.19 | uberwag | no ssh or anything else enabled |
| 17:42.30 | uberwag | i guess that is pretty secure for a n00b like me? |
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| 17:44.36 | ksk | keep your system up to date and try not to copy-paste anything you don not fully understan d from the internetz. |
| 17:44.55 | uberwag | ksk: yes true |
| 17:45.25 | uberwag | ksk: https://dennisnotes.com/note/20180627-ubuntu-18.04-server-setup/ |
| 17:45.30 | uberwag | those ip hardening rules |
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| 17:45.42 | uberwag | are they good to use, or in other words, are they needed? |
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| 17:45.47 | uberwag | can you check them maybe? |
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| 17:47.17 | ksk | nah, Id advise rather not changing those things. |
| 17:47.34 | uberwag | ok |
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| 17:48.01 | ksk | I always kind of assume, that the kernel developers (or, the debian team) know better than me which values are a good default. |
| 17:48.24 | ksk | you can read up single values in the kernel documentation (google them) to read what they do exactly. |
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| 17:49.12 | jmcnaught | uberwag: if you're using ssh then disabling password authentication and only using keys is a good step to take |
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| 17:49.31 | uberwag | jmcnaught: yes i know, but i even disable ssh on this vps |
| 17:49.45 | ksk | like, do you really want to disable icmp_echo? thats not really gonna improve your security imho. |
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| 17:50.05 | ksk | but rather bug you if you want to check if the host is reachable |
| 17:50.15 | uberwag | ksk: yes i thought so too |
| 17:50.30 | uberwag | but then i dont know if there can be any vulnerability in icmp protocol |
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| 17:51.16 | AlexNagy | I love the sound of a Windows partition being deleted. :-D |
| 17:51.34 | ksk | !ping of death |
| 17:51.34 | dpkg | tolls a 5-meter-bell over of death's head |
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| 17:52.28 | ksk | mhhm, yes you could argue about that, but then again you have so much really complex software installed besides icmp, which I belive to be old and robust - also its not a "service" in a unix manner |
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| 17:53.43 | ksk | if you are interested on things like that, I suggest that you try searching for if there were serious voulnerabilities in linux in combination with XY |
| 17:53.56 | uberwag | yea |
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| 17:56.11 | AlexNagy | @karlpinc, looks like I may try backports after all. No installable kernel found in defined apt sources from the installer disc. |
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| 17:59.36 | ksk | uberwag: also, take a look at the debian handbook. |
| 17:59.57 | ksk | !tell uberwag about handbook |
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| 18:00.18 | uberwag | ksk: ok thanks |
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| 18:13.20 | AlexNagy | I goofed. x64 installer for x86 system. derp |
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| 18:39.03 | jcb2016 | Will I ever have to use dojo other then seeing what version or what package is installed? |
| 18:39.16 | jcb2016 | Dpkg* |
| 18:39.56 | greycat | You can use it to purge a single package, or see the list of files in a package, and some other stuff, but those are the big ones. |
| 18:40.19 | jcb2016 | Got it |
| 18:40.25 | volter | -S and -L are also useful. |
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| 18:41.03 | jcb2016 | greycat: I just installed Debian I was told there are lots of tools Debian has and Iâm trying to figure them out |
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| 18:41.32 | volter | jcb2016: ^ |
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| 18:41.52 | jcb2016 | volter: ? |
| 18:42.05 | SerajewelKS | i've noticed since i've started using certbot+nginx on debian that the certbot timer doesn't reload the nginx config after renewing. however, i have noticed that after some time nginx picks up the new cert. is there some feature in nginx that periodically looks to see if certs changed? |
| 18:42.26 | SerajewelKS | i'm just very confused how nginx apparently knows to reload the certs, but it doesn't happen immediately |
| 18:42.33 | greycat | Yes, -S to search for which package produced a given file. Also handy. |
| 18:42.50 | greycat | -L is one that I already mentioned |
| 18:42.58 | jcb2016 | Cool thanks |
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| 19:13.08 | jcb2016 | Does deviant have some good mailing list? |
| 19:13.19 | jcb2016 | Debian* |
| 19:13.31 | greycat | https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ |
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| 19:14.43 | jcb2016 | Thanks greycat |
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| 19:25.55 | AlexNagy | karlpinc, literally all the issues I had earlier were from using the wrong installer. My apologies for wasting your time. |
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| 19:47.44 | jcb2016 | whats the diffrence between judd and dpkg ? do they have the same commands? |
| 19:47.54 | greycat | No. |
| 19:48.23 | greycat | !judd |
| 19:48.23 | dpkg | judd is a window into the Ultimate Debian Database (ask me about <udd>). Judd can look up package, PCI ID and kernel config information. See http://ircbots.debian.net/judd/ for detailed information, or ask me about <judd-packages>, <judd-hardware>, <source judd>. |
| 19:48.57 | jcb2016 | oh ok |
| 19:49.02 | jcb2016 | he isn't in #debian-bots |
| 19:49.35 | NetTerminalGene | ,kernels |
| 19:49.37 | judd | Available kernel versions are: experimental: 4.20.0-trunk-686-pae (4.20-1~exp1); sid: 4.19.0-3-686-pae (4.19.20-1); buster: 4.19.0-2-686-pae (4.19.16-1); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.2-686 (4.19.16-1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.9.0-8-686-pae (4.9.144-3); jessie-backports: 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.8-686-pae (4.9.110-3+deb9u5~deb8u1); wheezy- |
| 19:49.38 | judd | backports: 3.16.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae (3.16.39-1+deb8u1~bpo70+1); wheezy: 3.2.0-6-686-pae (3.2.102-1) |
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| 19:51.24 | outoftime | I have a problem with `mpd` and `ncmpcpp`. I'm running Debian 9.5. When I'm launching `ncmpcpp` it shows no files but I have them in my ~/Music folder as well as following configs https://termbin.com/gcwis |
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| 20:29.08 | outoftime | Each time I'm starting `ncmpcpp` I have following errors in `journalctl` https://paste.debian.net/plain/1070708 |
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| 20:47.55 | _Vi | How do I make /usr/sbin/nginx or /usr/bin/pulseaudio available on Debian without changing any system configuration (i.e. making Nginx auto-start or switching the system to PulseAudio)? |
| 20:48.08 | greycat | what |
| 20:48.45 | jelly | do |
| 20:48.51 | jelly | you mean by "available" |
| 20:49.08 | _Vi | Suppose a program depends on nginx because of it automatically starts web server sometimes. Shall package of that program depend on nginx? |
| 20:49.13 | SerajewelKS | nginx in debian ships with a systemd service that's enabled by default, it should already auto start |
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| 20:49.33 | SerajewelKS | pulseaudio by default auto-starts on demand when a client application tries to use it |
| 20:49.41 | SerajewelKS | so the answer seems to be "it's already that way" |
| 20:49.56 | _Vi | I mean preventing auto-start by default. |
| 20:50.16 | SerajewelKS | that's the opposite of what you said |
| 20:50.26 | SerajewelKS | can you re-state your goal and intent clearly? |
| 20:50.38 | jelly | _Vi: you can mask a systemctl service to disable autostart |
| 20:50.46 | SerajewelKS | or just disable it |
| 20:50.54 | _Vi | "Depends: nginx" makes opening 80 port an unintended side effect when installing the package, even though the program does not use system-wide Nginx. |
| 20:50.59 | SerajewelKS | masking is only necessary to prevent you from accidentally starting it by hand, IIRC |
| 20:51.00 | jelly | disabling it won't prevent starting as dependency |
| 20:51.15 | SerajewelKS | does anything depend on nginx? |
| 20:51.26 | greycat | I predict that he won't tell us what it is. |
| 20:51.48 | jelly | _Vi: the only way to avoid that is by setting up |
| 20:51.50 | jelly | !policy-rc.d |
| 20:51.50 | dpkg | [policy-rc.d] a mechanism to limit what init scripts are run by maintainer scripts. See http://people.debian.org/~hmh/invokerc.d-policyrc.d-specification.txt and <invoke-rc.d>. See http://ircbots.debian.net/scripts/policy-rc.d-forbid-dpkg for an example script that disables all daemon starts and stops during package installation -- tailoring it to your needs to only skip certain daemons would be advised. |
| 20:52.25 | _Vi | SerajewelKS, Imagine `git browse` required Nginx to work (i.e. it would create a temporary directory with nginx.conf and start Nginx and browser as a user). |
| 20:52.41 | greycat | Imagine that you told us what you're doing. |
| 20:52.50 | _Vi | SerajewelKS, Should that git-browse depend on nginx or not? |
| 20:53.19 | greycat | But no, he will instead expend an ENORMOUS amount of time and energy inventing hypothetical scenarios that have nothing to do with reality. |
| 20:53.25 | blackflow | lo |
| 20:53.27 | blackflow | l |
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| 20:53.36 | SerajewelKS | i'd imagine git-browse could work with any number of servers, so i would expect it to recommend or suggest several options, not hard-depend on one |
| 20:54.48 | _Vi | "told us what you're doing." -> Mostly wondering why most server packages are not split into main package and "*-bin" package with just executables, leading to auto-starting of multiple unnecessary services on dev system when I "apt-get install dropbear nginx dhcpd ...(a lot of)...". |
| 20:55.51 | blackflow | _Vi: because then you'd create another set of problems for the majority who want the service started and present when they install nginx |
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| 20:56.05 | blackflow | ideally what you want is disable the service up front so it won't start when installed |
| 20:56.06 | SerajewelKS | you could file a wishlist bug to make that happen |
| 20:56.35 | jelly | _Vi: the assumption Debian makes is roughly, "if there's a sensible default config, set it up and start the service automatically" |
| 20:56.54 | jelly | _Vi: if you do not like that assumption, use policy-rc.d |
| 20:57.02 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: not sure that would create problems. the existing nginx packages would get split with an extra -bin package, and the names currently in use today would depend on those so if you just wanted the binaries and not the config you could explicitly install the -bin package but not the primary one. |
| 20:57.12 | blackflow | policy-rc.d is no good. that disables maintainer scripts and leads to a number of new problems |
| 20:57.27 | outoftime | I have a problem with `mpd` and `ncmpcpp`. I'm running Debian 9.5. When I'm launching `ncmpcpp` it shows no files but I have them in my ~/Music folder as well as following configs https://termbin.com/gcwis Each time I'm starting `ncmpcpp` I have following errors in `journalctl` https://paste.debian.net/plain/1070708 |
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| 20:58.04 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: did you ever ask mpd to update your library? |
| 20:58.14 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: no. |
| 20:58.25 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: (press shift+u in ncmpcpp, IIRC) |
| 20:58.57 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: very helpful reply thanks |
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| 20:59.04 | veverak | hi folks! |
| 20:59.29 | veverak | is there some working repo with latest gcc (I want libstdc++ specifically) for debian? |
| 20:59.39 | jelly | blackflow: it doesn't disable maintainer scripts at all, just prevents them from starting services |
| 20:59.42 | greycat | finds a package that has "Depends: apache2 | httpd" |
| 21:00.08 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: least I can do. Such a change would be breakage at a number of levels, so I don't even want to encourage it. |
| 21:00.30 | jhutchins_wk | ,v gcc |
| 21:00.32 | judd | Package: gcc on amd64 -- wheezy: 4:4.7.2-1; jessie: 4:4.9.2-2; stretch: 4:6.3.0-4; buster: 4:8.2.0-2; sid: 4:8.2.0-2 |
| 21:00.44 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: i can't think of a single thing it would break. existing packages would upgrade automatically, the config remains in the same package. only the binaries move, and the current packages depend on the -bin packages. |
| 21:00.49 | SerajewelKS | IIRC apache2 already works this way |
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| 21:01.11 | greycat | Oh, here's a fun one: Package: gosa Depends: apache2 | lighttpd | httpd |
| 21:01.51 | jhutchins_wk | No nginx? |
| 21:02.07 | greycat | Package: fusiondirectory Depends: apache2 | lighttpd | httpd | nginx |
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| 21:02.38 | jelly | ,whatprovides httpd |
| 21:02.49 | judd | Package httpd in stretch/amd64 is provided by: aolserver4-core, aolserver4-daemon, apache2, ebhttpd, lighttpd, micro-httpd, mini-httpd, nginx-extras, nginx-full, nginx-light, ocsigenserver, tntnet, webfs, yaws. |
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| 21:03.01 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: it would break thousands of lines of automation configuration that does not expect nginx suddenly splitting into two binaries. it would mean a very much backwards incompatible change. and for what? one user per million, that can't be bothered to disable the services up front? |
| 21:03.15 | blackflow | s/binaries/packages/ |
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| 21:03.41 | jelly | automation would not even notice a package split done right |
| 21:03.46 | greycat | Package: sx Depends: nginx |
| 21:03.50 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: the current nginx would depend on nginx-bin. it's not much different from a transitional package. |
| 21:04.05 | SerajewelKS | if automation breaks by adding a dependency then the automation is shit to begin with |
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| 21:04.10 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: so how do you then install the nginx without -bin ? |
| 21:04.37 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: that wouldn't make any sense. the -bin contains the binary, _that's_ the one you might want by itself, if you have a script that starts nginx with an alternate config only. |
| 21:04.38 | blackflow | if `nginx` depends on `nginx-bin` then how do you achieve this that caused the split to begin with? by adding nginx-no-bin package? |
| 21:05.06 | jelly | blackflow: you wouldn't do that. Someone that wanted _only_ -bin would be able to install it. |
| 21:05.13 | SerajewelKS | so in the hypothetical scenario, git-browse could depend on nginx-bin instead to JUST get the binary (which it will start itself) and not "poison" the system with an unnecessary service. |
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| 21:05.20 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: I totally lost you. So, what goes into `nginx` and what goes into `nginx-bin`? |
| 21:05.23 | SerajewelKS | if you want the standard nginx on port 80 /etc/nginx all that |
| 21:05.36 | jelly | Ausmingly. nginx-full does, actually, only bring the binary :-) |
| 21:05.36 | blackflow | that's a matter of config, not packaging |
| 21:05.37 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: the config (/etc, systemd service, etc.) goes in nginx. /usr/sbin/nginx and plugins go in -bin |
| 21:05.40 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I have used `mpc update` for this |
| 21:05.53 | greycat | I'm still waiting to hear what this alleged package is which "depends on nginx" but "doesn't actually need a running nginx web server". |
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| 21:06.40 | DammitJim | can you guys help me ask google the right question? |
| 21:06.53 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: "Shift+U" seems do nothing in ncmpcpp |
| 21:06.59 | SerajewelKS | the hypothetical split would be for things that want the binary without the systemd service. they want -bin. the standard sysadmin gets the regular package, which installs the config and service and also depends on the -bin. |
| 21:07.18 | DammitJim | I have been tasked with creating a VM and install Debian on 1 hard drive |
| 21:07.35 | _Vi | greycat, `"depends on nginx" but "doesn't actually need a running nginx web server"` -> I meant it runs /usr/sbin/nginx itself, not places files in sites-available. |
| 21:07.45 | greycat | And you can't tell us what it is. |
| 21:07.48 | blackflow | SerajewelKS: okay I thought you meant the other way around. but still... this is extra work for maintainers for zero benefit. |
| 21:07.49 | DammitJim | but then for the data, use mdadm to raid the same hard drive and a secondary one |
| 21:08.11 | DammitJim | shouldn't the O/S be installed in the RAID array itself? |
| 21:08.13 | *** join/#debian Hypfer (~Hypfer@unaffiliated/hypfer) |
| 21:08.26 | jelly | DammitJim: mdadm within a VM? Why, test / lab? |
| 21:08.26 | DammitJim | when I say raid, I mean "software raid" |
| 21:08.28 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: my bad, it's not with shift. but that does the same thing as mpc update anyway. |
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| 21:08.43 | DammitJim | no, that's what the guys for DB2 asked me to use |
| 21:08.51 | DammitJim | hence why I'm so confused |
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| 21:09.15 | SerajewelKS | blackflow: i'm not sure the benefit is zero (apache2 already does exactly what we're talking about). but it's marginal, currently. |
| 21:09.23 | SerajewelKS | ,v apache2-bin |
| 21:09.24 | judd | Package: apache2-bin on amd64 -- jessie: 2.4.10-10+deb8u12; jessie-security: 2.4.10-10+deb8u12; stretch-security: 2.4.25-3+deb9u4; stretch: 2.4.25-3+deb9u6; sid: 2.4.37-1; buster: 2.4.38-2 |
| 21:09.42 | jelly | DammitJim: ignore their redundancy assumptions and solve them on host level, invisible to the VM. |
| 21:09.47 | DammitJim | or maybe there is a better channel where I should be asking this question? |
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| 21:10.20 | DammitJim | so, the host has 2 fusionIO cards that we need to use for speed |
| 21:10.28 | jelly | DammitJim: the right question there "that is weird, why do you think you need this" or "what is your REAL goal" |
| 21:10.52 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: i think the answer is to ask the VM host what the storage redundancy is. if the storage is already redundant, that redundancy applies to the VM automatically. |
| 21:10.54 | DammitJim | well, they said.. in case that one of the fusionIO cards dies, then you have redundancy |
| 21:11.24 | jelly | why not raid1 those cards on host level? |
| 21:11.32 | DammitJim | SerajewelKS, there is no redundancy on the host... the only hardware offered are 2 cards insead of 1 |
| 21:11.46 | SerajewelKS | still better to raid on the host as jelly says |
| 21:11.49 | DammitJim | jelly, one can do that? oh man... but that's a vmware question, right? |
| 21:12.01 | jelly | oh, host is not linux? |
| 21:12.01 | SerajewelKS | no it's a host OS question, right? |
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| 21:12.05 | DammitJim | (that's my hypervisor) |
| 21:12.26 | SerajewelKS | the hypervisor will use whatever storage you point it at, which can be storage that is RAIDed on the host OS |
| 21:12.28 | DammitJim | well, the question started because I'm using Debian for the VM and they wanted to do mdadm |
| 21:12.33 | trysten | I'd think it's host OS's concern, using mdadm or LVM to control redundancy |
| 21:12.34 | jelly | I have no idea whether esxi has its own soft raid, sorry |
| 21:12.52 | DammitJim | ok, I'm going to go ask, but I don't think it has that option |
| 21:12.55 | jelly | doing it inside the VM is.. unusual |
| 21:12.58 | SerajewelKS | raid in a VM can make sense (we do some RAID1 even on EC2) |
| 21:13.23 | trysten | SerajewelKS: what does that do for you? |
| 21:13.30 | DammitJim | SerajewelKS, but you raid it from the start, right? You don't install Debian on one drive and then only raid the data? |
| 21:13.50 | jelly | DammitJim: it depends on the goal really. |
| 21:14.08 | SerajewelKS | trysten: there have been incidents of various EBS servers suddenly having extreme I/O latency, but a subset. having two EBS volumes in a RAID1, assuming they don't share an underlying server, allows recovery by just failing the disk with latency. |
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| 21:14.29 | DammitJim | really SerajewelKS ? |
| 21:14.33 | trysten | Interesting. Thanks for sharing. |
| 21:14.44 | SerajewelKS | yes, it's what caused reddit to be down for an entire week some years (?) ago |
| 21:15.10 | jelly | DammitJim: do you need to protect just the db? Is the OS less important than the data? |
| 21:15.17 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: the entire disk is RAIDed, yes |
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| 21:15.20 | DammitJim | oh man, there is no raid in ESXi |
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| 21:15.34 | jelly | DammitJim: there's vSAN :-) |
| 21:15.41 | DammitJim | jelly, that's exactly what I am struggling with, but before I go back to those guys, I wanted to double check |
| 21:15.45 | SerajewelKS | here's the argument: RAID is for uptime, not backup. if your system disk dies then what the fuck is the point of RAIDing the data!? you still have downtime. |
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| 21:15.59 | DammitJim | jelly, vSAN, yes! but vSAN doesn't support FusionIO cards :( |
| 21:16.10 | DammitJim | I definitely have backups and even replication going on |
| 21:16.19 | SerajewelKS | so, you are either working with someone who doesn't understand that backups are required, or doesn't understand what RAID is for, or both. |
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| 21:16.25 | jelly | ah, therein lies the rub |
| 21:16.29 | SerajewelKS | you need to RAID everything the system needs to keep running |
| 21:16.31 | DammitJim | but they were saying in case that 1 fusionIO card goes, then the other will keep running |
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| 21:16.39 | karlpinc | DammitJim: man lvmcache |
| 21:16.42 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: do you have an idea where should I dig? |
| 21:16.44 | SerajewelKS | otherwise there is no point to raid |
| 21:16.48 | DammitJim | yeah, so I should install Debian in the Raid1 config, right? |
| 21:16.53 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: sorry, no... other than looking in the mpd log |
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| 21:17.01 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: if two disks, yes |
| 21:17.10 | karlpinc | DammitJim: Then you don't need fusionIO. |
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| 21:17.31 | DammitJim | I need fusionIO! those things are awesome |
| 21:18.00 | SerajewelKS | raid in a VM can make sense in some cases. but make sure the virtual disks don't share physical storage. :) |
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| 21:18.07 | jelly | DammitJim: so make two datastores and two disks on each and also: an extra small disk for /boot so you don't have to partition the other disks and can use lvm instead and have live growing |
| 21:18.10 | SerajewelKS | i've seen some janky setups where two virtual disks were RAIDed but they were on the same physical disk |
| 21:18.17 | SerajewelKS | my brain was not happy that day |
| 21:18.33 | karlpinc | DammitJim: lvmcache is your own fusionIO. |
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| 21:18.55 | jelly | SerajewelKS: one can make rules against that happening if one has paid for a vcenter licence |
| 21:19.19 | SerajewelKS | jelly: i don't think it was vmware at all |
| 21:19.32 | SerajewelKS | it was KVM or virtualbox or something like that |
| 21:19.43 | jelly | "these two disks must not be on the same datastore" "these two VMs must not be on the same host" etc |
| 21:20.01 | SerajewelKS | my only guess is someone heard "raid is good" and tried to make it use raid |
| 21:20.12 | DammitJim | I"ve done that before for testing purposes |
| 21:20.24 | SerajewelKS | me too of course :) |
| 21:20.29 | jelly | makes two partitions on a disk and raid1 |
| 21:20.38 | SerajewelKS | it's fun to learn raid/lvm in a VM because you can dick around with as many disks as you want |
| 21:20.49 | jelly | TECHNICALLY this protects against bad sectors! |
| 21:20.52 | SerajewelKS | this was not test, it was production |
| 21:20.54 | karlpinc | jelly: You should make 3! Even faster! |
| 21:20.55 | DammitJim | oh, I don't know how I could have done things 15 years ago when we didn't have virtualization |
| 21:21.02 | DammitJim | but at the same time, I think I would have less issues |
| 21:21.03 | SerajewelKS | jelly: why not raid0 for the performance :) |
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| 21:21.10 | SerajewelKS | jelly: disk seeks are fast, right? |
| 21:22.23 | jelly | SerajewelKS: best buy a larger disk, then raid0 just two small slices at the beginning! |
| 21:22.41 | DammitJim | not sure I understand the boot partition thing |
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| 21:23.33 | jelly | DammitJim: imagine you want to grow your md raid members. If they're partitions on a disk you can't do that online. |
| 21:23.50 | jhutchins_wk | I Saw a lot of unrecoverable controller failures in the 90's. "Oh, we don't make that model any more, and the new ones aren't backwards compatible." |
| 21:24.04 | jelly | need to stop using a disk to let the kernel reread changes in partition table. For reasons. |
| 21:24.15 | jhutchins_wk | Typically on a system where they'd done RAID _instead_ of backup. |
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| 21:24.18 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: That's the argument for software raid instead of hardware raid. |
| 21:24.32 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I have a feeling that `mpd` didn't see my '~/.config/mpd/mpd.conf' file because I have set '~/.config/mpd/' folder to contain db, logs, pid, etc., but it is empty. |
| 21:24.34 | jelly | jhutchins_wk: that's why you had two controllers. |
| 21:24.51 | DammitJim | so, jelly, you are saying I create the boot partition only on 1 datastore? |
| 21:25.13 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: generally you have /boot as a raw extN in raid1 then you have another raid1 containing an LVM PV and the rest of the volumes in there |
| 21:25.33 | t3st3r | <jelly> SerajewelKS: best buy a larger disk, then raid0 just two small slices at the beginning! <- or use btrfs to do it transparent way. |
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| 21:26.06 | DammitJim | oh gosh, where do I read about this? it sounds like it's the right thing to do |
| 21:26.26 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: then you install grub on both disks, then your system can boot from either in the total absence of the other |
| 21:26.47 | SerajewelKS | (this is how my home LAN server is set up) |
| 21:26.48 | jelly | DammitJim: I'm saying things are easier if you separate storage containing /boot (which firmware usually really wants to be a partition), from storage containing OS and data. And it's nicer if storage for OS and data does not use partitions at all |
| 21:27.27 | SerajewelKS | if your firmware/bootloader doesn't like /boot to be raided you can use an older metadata version that puts the raid metadata at the end of the disk |
| 21:27.40 | SerajewelKS | then to the bootloader/firmware it looks like a raw extN volume |
| 21:27.57 | jelly | current grub2 can deal with md metadata 1.2 |
| 21:28.05 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: hmm, possible. how are you starting mpd? |
| 21:28.17 | SerajewelKS | jelly: right. i found this out after setting everything up, thankfully. |
| 21:28.49 | jelly | but sometimes you want to avoid relying on latest stuff made this decade! |
| 21:29.07 | DammitJim | ok, so I am creating the VM |
| 21:29.11 | SerajewelKS | the only case i've seen recently for using an older metadata is for the ESP |
| 21:29.14 | Iarfen | hi! |
| 21:29.17 | DammitJim | I should create a tiny virtual hard drive for boot? |
| 21:29.19 | Iarfen | how I can know the ip address to configure my modem? |
| 21:29.27 | SerajewelKS | but even that's a bad idea since non-mdadm-aware firmwares might try to alter the ESP and desync the raid under you |
| 21:29.46 | SerajewelKS | the only "good" approach i've seen to keep multiple ESPs in sync is to either dd them periodically or mount and rsync them |
| 21:29.50 | jelly | SerajewelKS: thankfully VMs in esxi use BIOS firmware and boot method by default, not UEFI |
| 21:29.58 | SerajewelKS | yeah |
| 21:30.06 | SerajewelKS | UEFI is nice in theory but bad for redundant setups |
| 21:30.22 | jelly | it's nice if you have a nice hw raid controller |
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| 21:30.44 | SerajewelKS | perhaps. i tend not to like hardware raid. |
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| 21:31.25 | jelly | our esxi boot off SD card. |
| 21:31.48 | jelly | especially those with vSAN, because vSAN does not like hw raid either |
| 21:31.49 | SerajewelKS | we have some servers that can boot from SD cards too. we don't use that feature though. |
| 21:32.09 | jelly | it's very nice to avoid partitioning disks |
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| 21:32.45 | SerajewelKS | that's why i use lvm for everything except /boot :) |
| 21:33.01 | jelly | likewise |
| 21:33.18 | jelly | but it's nicer to put LVM on whole disk than on a partition |
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| 21:33.41 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: `sudo systemctl restart mpd.service` |
| 21:33.45 | SerajewelKS | i set up a 4-disk backup server for us recently. /boot is raid1 across all four disks then we have / in LVM in a raid10 |
| 21:34.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1512] by debhelper |
| 21:34.04 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: what makes you think that the system-wide mpd knows to look in your user's home directory for the config? |
| 21:34.21 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: it's going to be looking in /etc/mpd |
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| 21:37.33 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: FWIW, when we RAID1 in AWS we do so between an SSD and an HDD (1/2 cost of SSD) volume, and set the HDD write-mostly |
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| 21:37.49 | SerajewelKS | DammitJim: this way we get RAID1 for 1.5x the cost of the SSD |
| 21:38.06 | SerajewelKS | read performance is not affected, though writes become slower |
| 21:38.11 | DammitJim | you can do that? |
| 21:38.18 | SerajewelKS | do what? |
| 21:38.33 | DammitJim | set where to write to |
| 21:39.17 | jelly | mdadm has neat features like that, yes |
| 21:39.21 | SerajewelKS | you can flag raid1 members as write-mostly, which tells it not to use that disk for reads if possible |
| 21:39.41 | DammitJim | wow |
| 21:39.47 | jelly | I use the same setup on my workstation, ssd+hd in raid1 |
| 21:39.49 | SerajewelKS | (normally it will try to read from both disks, which you don't want when mirroring an SSD and HDD.) |
| 21:39.58 | SerajewelKS | jelly: ditto |
| 21:40.11 | jelly | upgrading packages is really slow, unless I fail and remove hdd first |
| 21:40.23 | jelly | and --re-add it afterwards |
| 21:40.30 | SerajewelKS | i just do that before i leave for lunch :) |
| 21:40.37 | DammitJim | hhmmmm... I guess my next laptop should have 2 drives and I should Raid1 them |
| 21:40.55 | SerajewelKS | the HDD is a WD black, i think. it's fast enough most of the time. |
| 21:41.49 | karlpinc | DammitJim: You can also tell lvm to use an ssd as a cache to a spinning disk. Either with or without waiting for write-through the the underlying spinning disk. |
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| 21:42.20 | jelly | md also has a "write intent bitmap" which records changes between members, so one can temporarily remove a member from an array, let some changes accumulate, --re-add it later and let md sync just the differences, not the whole disk |
| 21:42.46 | SerajewelKS | jelly: first time i removed and re-added a disk i checked mdstat and it wasn't syncing, i was very confused |
| 21:42.59 | jelly | it was already done? |
| 21:43.03 | SerajewelKS | yeah |
| 21:43.14 | SerajewelKS | but it launched me into a half-hour research session trying to figure out what went wrong |
| 21:43.20 | SerajewelKS | but i learned about the bitmap! |
| 21:43.52 | jelly | I have some remote backup disks synced up over md raid1 |
| 21:44.01 | jelly | (and nbd and a vpn) |
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| 21:44.45 | DammitJim | so, there is some value to raid1 in the VM ;) |
| 21:44.50 | SerajewelKS | i just use restic for backups |
| 21:45.05 | jelly | thus badly half-reimplementing neat remote features that zfs has |
| 21:45.17 | SerajewelKS | i don't see the value in remote raid1 members |
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| 21:45.48 | SerajewelKS | it's not fast enough to drive the system if the disks die, and it's a poor backup solution because you can't go back in time more than one snapshot ago |
| 21:45.59 | SerajewelKS | it's "cool" but useless |
| 21:46.28 | jelly | SerajewelKS: rsyncing millions of files to local disk and then syncing a bitmap of that block devices is much faster that rsyncing millions of files over a line with high latency |
| 21:46.53 | jelly | SerajewelKS: but see, I md raid1 _backup_ disks. :-) |
| 21:47.16 | SerajewelKS | jelly: ah. restic stores files in 8MB packs so you can rsync a restic repository pretty quickly. |
| 21:47.28 | jelly | does it have a working fsck? |
| 21:47.35 | SerajewelKS | 'restic check' |
| 21:47.48 | SerajewelKS | which can additionally read all of the data and compare it to the data's ID (a SHA hash) |
| 21:47.49 | jelly | but, does... it... work? |
| 21:48.09 | SerajewelKS | yeah. it verifies the tree structures and can optionally verify the integrity of all stored data |
| 21:48.23 | jelly | if you munge a couple blocks will it tell you which files and file versions are gone |
| 21:48.25 | SerajewelKS | (don't use the restic in debian though, it's hopelessly outdated) |
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| 21:48.47 | SerajewelKS | it will tell you the object ids that are gone and then you can 'restic find' them to determine the snapshot(s) they are stored in |
| 21:48.54 | jelly | because even reiserfsck pretended to work |
| 21:49.28 | SerajewelKS | i can't promise there's no bugs but i'm fairly active on the restic forums and have walked multiple people through munged block failures |
| 21:49.47 | jelly | ,v restic |
| 21:49.48 | judd | Package: restic on amd64 -- stretch: 0.3.3-1+b2; sid: 0.9.4+ds-1; buster: 0.9.4+ds-2 |
| 21:49.49 | SerajewelKS | which generally involves finding the snapshots with the bad data and tossing them, then rebuilding the good data into new packs |
| 21:50.20 | SerajewelKS | note that restic memory usage is proportional to the number of files, so if you have a TON of small files, it may need too much memory to be useful |
| 21:50.27 | SerajewelKS | there's an open issue to optimize that |
| 21:50.49 | jelly | just number of files on source, or number of files * number of versions? |
| 21:50.59 | SerajewelKS | we're using it in production to back up all of our servers. i've tested a full-system restore in a VM, just had to adjust fstab, install grub, and it booted. |
| 21:51.17 | SerajewelKS | neither, number of repository blobs |
| 21:51.41 | jelly | which db backend does it use? |
| 21:51.43 | SerajewelKS | files are split into blobs, each blob is deduplicated |
| 21:52.09 | SerajewelKS | the packs and snapshots are just files in a directory |
| 21:52.18 | jelly | oh dear, another git |
| 21:52.41 | SerajewelKS | in some ways. designed for backup, which includes the ability to throw away blobs that aren't used anymore. |
| 21:53.07 | SerajewelKS | i like the fact that i can rclone it to an S3/B2 bucket and only send up changes |
| 21:53.11 | jelly | eh, I'll try it out, because buying larger and larger disks for naive rsync gets annoying |
| 21:53.21 | jelly | and there are no 2.5" portable 10TB drives. |
| 21:54.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1506] by debhelper |
| 21:54.09 | SerajewelKS | the chunking means it can dedupe within files |
| 21:54.23 | SerajewelKS | i compress our db backups with gzip --rsyncable and it does a pretty good job with those |
| 21:54.43 | jelly | that might work with ms sql dumps, maybe |
| 21:55.22 | SerajewelKS | yeah. it's hit or miss depending on how spread out the change is, and where restic decides to break apart the file |
| 21:55.49 | jelly | fixed size blocks or it tries to be smarter? |
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| 21:56.52 | SerajewelKS | "The data from each file is split into variable length Blobs cut at offsets defined by a sliding window of 64 byte. The implementation uses Rabin Fingerprints for implementing this Content Defined Chunking (CDC)." |
| 21:57.03 | SerajewelKS | https://restic.readthedocs.io/en/latest/100_references.html |
| 21:57.11 | jelly | qualifies as "smarter" |
| 21:57.14 | SerajewelKS | yep |
| 21:57.25 | SerajewelKS | i don't know the mechanics of how it works |
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| 21:57.44 | jelly | wonder how many of its own files does it touch each night. I still want to backup its repo to tapes. |
| 21:58.03 | SerajewelKS | the data storage is designed to be add-only |
| 21:58.15 | SerajewelKS | so nothing is modified, only added (until you "forget" or "prune") |
| 21:58.25 | jelly | that is very good |
| 21:58.48 | SerajewelKS | this means you can have multiple servers backing up to the same repository concurrently, though this also means that those backup operations can't effectively deduplicate data with the data the other backup is adding |
| 21:59.05 | SerajewelKS | "prune" is the operation that throws out duplicate and unused data |
| 21:59.37 | SerajewelKS | it collects all of the packs containing data that needs to be removed, and builds new packs with just the data to keep |
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| 21:59.59 | SerajewelKS | so you still won't see files modified, but you would see files deleted and added following a prune |
| 22:00.22 | SerajewelKS | (filenames are a hash of their content, so modifying a file breaks that data) |
| 22:01.01 | SerajewelKS | jelly: also look at the --keep-* options to forget, which allows you to specify time-based retention policies |
| 22:01.27 | SerajewelKS | ours is something like: keep 60 daily, 26 weekly, 24 monthly, 5 yearly |
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| 22:02.42 | jelly | I have like half a PB of tapes just for 30 daily (but no dedup) |
| 22:02.57 | SerajewelKS | the policies are applied to each "snapshot group" separately (--group-by controls how they are grouped) |
| 22:03.28 | SerajewelKS | yeah the only option that isn't tape-friendly is prune |
| 22:03.50 | SerajewelKS | and forget, i guess. those are the only two that delete data. |
| 22:04.13 | jelly | deleting is friendly :-) repacking less so |
| 22:04.35 | SerajewelKS | you can alleviate that somewhat by pruning less frequently |
| 22:04.48 | jelly | and needing more storage space |
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| 22:05.11 | SerajewelKS | if the dedup makes things efficient enough you may not need to prune often anyway |
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| 22:05.29 | jelly | amusingly the current backup system at work spends about half the time repacking data on tapes |
| 22:06.23 | SerajewelKS | i don't use tape so i can't speak to how well it works with tape |
| 22:06.38 | SerajewelKS | we have one backup server that we sync both to S3 and another offsite system |
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| 22:07.04 | SerajewelKS | the offsite system pulls with 'rclone copy --immutable' which does not accept deletions or changes to files, which is our protection from malicious corruption |
| 22:07.54 | jelly | testing B2 as archival tape replacement is on one of my todo lists |
| 22:07.56 | SerajewelKS | or non-malicious corruption, i guess |
| 22:08.15 | SerajewelKS | we use S3 at work for backups because we already have an AWS account so it's easier |
| 22:08.37 | SerajewelKS | i use B2 as an off-site copy of my personal owncloud server backup repository |
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| 22:09.52 | jelly | the thing is, I can restore at 100-300MB/s from local tapes if need be (and if lucky...) but I suspect bandwidth is not unlimited when talking to the cloud |
| 22:10.12 | SerajewelKS | jelly: i even use this for my mom's laptop. she did periodic backups of her laptop with an external hard drive. once every few months. i brought that disk to my house and put it in my server, and put a restic script on her computer. now it backs up every night to my house at 1am. |
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| 22:12.01 | SerajewelKS | jelly: that's one of the reasons we have a hot backup server with a raid10 |
| 22:12.19 | SerajewelKS | as long as we don't lose the backup server we can restore pretty quickly, otherwise we do have to pull from off-site |
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| 22:12.31 | SerajewelKS | though one of the copies is in our office so we could just bring that disk in to the data center |
| 22:14.36 | SerajewelKS | we have 400Mbit/s upload from our office though, might not even help much to bring it in physically |
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| 22:15.53 | t3st3r | jelly> yeah :) and better to read ToS/agreement before disaster strikes. Some guy using IIRC something like amazong got his backup recovery ... worth of $200. |
| 22:17.35 | t3st3r | and when you need to restore backup it's hard to say "no", even if looks like ripoff :) |
| 22:17.41 | SerajewelKS | t3st3r: he used glacier and didn't understand how retrieval fees worked (which has been changed) |
| 22:18.01 | SerajewelKS | fees used to be by the peak GB/sec used in a month. now it's a flat per-GB. |
| 22:18.24 | t3st3r | it has been changed, blah-doh, but could be changed agains, outside of your control, and good luck to say "no" to your data :0 |
| 22:18.58 | SerajewelKS | indeed. i have at least one local copy of my backups, which i'd of course prefer if that isn't also destroyed. |
| 22:19.23 | SerajewelKS | usually pricing changes are announced in advance, too |
| 22:20.03 | t3st3r | As for me it looked like very good showcase of possible pitfalls. And tracking "pricing changes announced in advance" adds some burden. |
| 22:21.30 | SerajewelKS | there is always that chance. i have only ever seen AWS lower prices, though. |
| 22:21.42 | SerajewelKS | it's something to be mindful of but not avoid entirely |
| 22:22.06 | SerajewelKS | (and AWS price changes are announced months in advance, to a mailing list i subscribe to) |
| 22:22.24 | SerajewelKS | generally a good idea to subscribe to your providers' mailing lists anyway |
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| 22:23.55 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: looks like I have to follow this section https://www.musicpd.org/doc/html/user.html#systemd-user-unit |
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| 22:24.55 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: yeah you can use user units. also, ncmpcpp will automatically start mpd if it's not running. |
| 22:25.09 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: if you only use mpd alongside ncmpcpp you can just forget about a service at all |
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| 22:25.51 | jcb2016 | what are some other commands or tools i should read up on? i got apt dpkg aptitude i got some judd commands and dpkg commands. anything else? |
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| 22:28.41 | SerajewelKS | jcb2016: systemd commands are good to know (systemctl, journalctl, etc) |
| 22:29.07 | jcb2016 | ok |
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| 22:31.37 | teclo- | okay I'm starting the debian-livecd-xfce iso... What memory size should I use in qemu ? 512M ? |
| 22:32.00 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: should be fine, 1GB wouldn't hurt though |
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| 22:32.47 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I need more details about how\why it happends (ncmpcpp launches mpd), where do you found that info? |
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| 22:35.20 | t3st3r | jcb2016> also basics of *nix shell wouldn't hurt. This lets one automate some routine actions quite easily. |
| 22:35.34 | jcb2016 | ok |
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| 22:36.17 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I have " |
| 22:36.23 | jcb2016 | im looking at axi-cache i can't find it through apt-cache or apt search all it came up is with apt-xapian-index/stable 0.49 all im assuming its in there. how do i find out what is in there before installing the package? |
| 22:36.43 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I have "connection refused message" if mpd.service is stoped |
| 22:37.56 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: or ncmpcpp will start mpd only with another config file? |
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| 22:45.14 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: oh hmm, you are right |
| 22:47.39 | trysten | I'm considering changing the group of mount.davfs so I can do SGID. But I see that SUID is already set on this root-only tool. What's up with that? Why is SUID bit set on /usr/sbin/mount.davfs? |
| 22:48.16 | trysten | (I haven't configured something with SUID before, so I don't know how to think about it correctly yet) |
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| 22:49.37 | themill | trysten: so that you can use it in fstab with the 'user' option |
| 22:49.56 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: something on my system auto-started mpd and i'm not sure what because the systemd unit is disabled, and i don't have a user unit. that's why i assumed ncmpcpp auto-started it. |
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| 22:51.03 | SerajewelKS | i'm still not sure what started it |
| 22:51.11 | cmm11 | any timers enabled for it ? |
| 22:51.36 | SerajewelKS | no, mpd doesn't ship with a timer |
| 22:51.49 | SerajewelKS | i rebooted a few days ago for a kernel update, i'm guessing it started at boot. i just don't know how. |
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| 22:53.13 | jmcnaught | SerajewelKS: does mpd have a socket unit that's still enabled? |
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| 22:55.12 | SerajewelKS | jmcnaught: wouldn't it have started when i ran ncmpcpp again then? |
| 22:55.29 | SerajewelKS | (it does have a socket unit but it's also disabled) |
| 22:55.43 | SerajewelKS | the daemon was also running as my user, and i don't have a user unit for it |
| 22:58.41 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: can you share your ncmpcpp config? |
| 22:59.18 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: do you mean mpd config? |
| 23:00.08 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: you sad something starting mpd, if not systemd then somebody else, not mpd |
| 23:00.26 | SerajewelKS | well ncmpcpp isn't doing it for me either |
| 23:00.33 | SerajewelKS | it must have already been running |
| 23:00.54 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: what is you debian version? |
| 23:00.57 | SerajewelKS | shame i already killed it or pstree could have helped |
| 23:00.59 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: stretch |
| 23:01.19 | SerajewelKS | systemd has inactive (dead) so i don't think systemd did it |
| 23:01.26 | SerajewelKS | otherwise it would say failed (dead) i think |
| 23:01.27 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: do you remember how you have configured mpd + ncmpcpp? |
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| 23:01.41 | SerajewelKS | i don't know what that means |
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| 23:02.40 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: how you installed both and what instructions have you followed to configure them |
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| 23:03.26 | SerajewelKS | that's a lot to go through because i've used it for quite awhile. both installed from debian. the mpd config is to use icecast2 as the output device. |
| 23:03.33 | SerajewelKS | nothing really special about the config other than that |
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| 23:06.43 | outoftime | SerajewelKS: I have started same service but with `--user` and ncmpcpp works now... |
| 23:07.04 | SerajewelKS | outoftime: yeah that can work too. but my user service doesn't have it enabled either, and doesn't indicate that i killed it. |
| 23:07.09 | SerajewelKS | i have no idea what started it still |
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| 23:10.16 | teclo- | hm, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I'm in running the debian-live-9.8.0-amd64-xfce.iso livecd... and there's no lftp... and if I do sudo apt install lftp all I get is: |
| 23:10.31 | teclo- | E: Unable to locate package lftp |
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| 23:12.46 | outoftime | teclo-: ping google.com ? |
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| 23:14.16 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: apt update, look for errors downloading the package lists |
| 23:14.31 | teclo- | outoftime: indeed, dumb me, sorry |
| 23:15.16 | teclo- | what puzzles me is that DNS works (so it got an address and a DNS server from my DHCP server) |
| 23:15.37 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: check if you have a default route? |
| 23:16.04 | cmm11 | if you can browse the internet fine then it's likely repository related |
| 23:16.40 | teclo- | SerajewelKS: well .... "/sbin/ifconfig: no such file or directory" |
| 23:16.54 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: ip route |
| 23:17.04 | SerajewelKS | ifconfig has been deprecated for a long time, use ip |
| 23:17.36 | teclo- | SerajewelKS: well I'm mostly familiar with Debian 8.x, sorry... yes I really should upgrade |
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| 23:17.50 | SerajewelKS | even in 8 i'm pretty sure it was deprecated |
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| 23:19.58 | teclo- | SerajewelKS: sorry but I can see right now that in 8.x the /sbin/ifconfig file is there and it works |
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| 23:20.17 | teclo- | anyway... |
| 23:20.19 | teclo- | ah damnit |
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| 23:20.24 | teclo- | I just forgot to do apt update |
| 23:20.32 | teclo- | I'm sorry, I'm kinda tired :/ |
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| 23:21.05 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: yes it's in 9 by default too, but you are in a livecd which does not represent the default debian environment |
| 23:21.25 | SerajewelKS | teclo-: live cds are purposely slimmed down by removing cruft. ifconfig is cruft. :) |
| 23:21.42 | teclo- | SerajewelKS: I agree:) |
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| 23:24.30 | teclo- | heh |
| 23:24.40 | teclo- | "Processings triggers for man-db ... |
| 23:24.44 | teclo- | FATAL -> Failed to fork |
| 23:25.05 | teclo- | Looks like the Debian GNU/Linux LiveCD wants to fork, but he can't |
| 23:25.35 | mawk | what is your architecture teclo- ? |
| 23:25.42 | fak3r | SerajewelKS yep, long live `ip -a` |
| 23:25.47 | mawk | there are not much reasons for fork to fail |
| 23:25.59 | mawk | fork is forbidden on MMU-less systems, but apart from that I don't see |
| 23:26.18 | mawk | you could've hit the rlimit |
| 23:26.29 | teclo- | mawk: x86_64 |
| 23:26.38 | mawk | but a livecd is pretty deterministic, maintainers would've noticed that |
| 23:26.42 | teclo- | mawk: uhhh hit rlimit... as root ? |
| 23:27.03 | mawk | yeah that doesn't make a whole lot of sense |
| 23:27.17 | mawk | even though yeah you can hit a rlimit if you're root, if you lack the CAP_SYS_RESOURCE capability |
| 23:27.29 | SerajewelKS | maybe you're cursed |
| 23:27.29 | mawk | the last option is that you don't have enough RAM |
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| 23:27.46 | teclo- | well I gave 1024M in qemu |
| 23:27.58 | mawk | try 2048 maybe |
| 23:28.00 | teclo- | and the gui (xfce) is pretty fast |
| 23:28.12 | mawk | yeah |
| 23:28.13 | SerajewelKS | i doubt it's RAM |
| 23:28.17 | mawk | don't you have a better error message ? |
| 23:28.27 | SerajewelKS | "free" would identify that anyway. you might also check dmesg and see if the kernel is upset about anything. |
| 23:28.27 | jcb2016 | i just heated up baked beans. anyone want a wiff? |
| 23:28.28 | mawk | try sprinkling -v here and there |
| 23:29.44 | outoftime | teclo-: I have started to use i3wm, it is awesome (: |
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| 23:32.17 | gislaved | hi guys, what is the following issue lately on (preseed) installation? random: crng init done |
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| 23:33.42 | mawk | it's not an issue |
| 23:33.49 | mawk | it's just an informative message |
| 23:33.56 | gislaved | what is it then ? my preseed hangs it seems |
| 23:34.07 | mawk | it's not the cause of the hang |
| 23:34.20 | mawk | it's just the kernel saying that it got enough information to initialize its random number generator |
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| 23:34.43 | gislaved | ok, I think it's disk related then because disk comes after network-preseed |
| 23:34.49 | gislaved | if I'm right |
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| 23:36.36 | b2d2 | hi |
| 23:37.03 | b2d2 | I have a debian server running, and I see it sets up my wifi network interface |
| 23:37.08 | gislaved | mawk any other suggestions on KVM ? |
| 23:37.31 | b2d2 | I'm wondering how I can get it to connect to a network, and more specifically, automatically re-connect when network available |
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| 23:37.57 | b2d2 | dhcp does it for the eth interface -- is there something similar for wlan? |
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| 23:38.08 | mawk | ah it's kvm gislaved , well it could do that if it doesn't have a good time source for instance |
| 23:38.26 | mawk | but if you're using qemu it should take care of the details |
| 23:38.47 | gislaved | mawk I thought so, think it's something else |
| 23:39.02 | gislaved | and I know what :) |
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| 23:39.25 | SerajewelKS | gislaved: can you boot the kernel with debug=all? |
| 23:39.31 | SerajewelKS | that might give some clue about where it's stalling |
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| 23:40.10 | gislaved | SerajewelKS good one, will test it out, I think it cannot download packages ;) |
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| 23:46.03 | gislaved | SerajewelKS sounf it, I made a too sexy setup :D |
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| 23:54.15 | teclo- | okay here in Debian 9.8 Firefox says it's version 60.5.0esr |
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| 23:56.17 | teclo- | I'm not sure 60.5.0esr is still stupported https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_version_history#Versions_60_through_69 |
| 23:56.47 | teclo- | from what I see only 60.5.1esr are supported |
| 23:56.55 | teclo- | from what I see only 60.5.1esr and later are supported |
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| 23:58.26 | *** join/#debian FightingFalcon (~FightingF@unaffiliated/fightingfalcon) |
| 23:58.26 | teclo- | 60.5.0esr isn't even in the liste |
| 23:58.29 | teclo- | list* |
| 23:58.32 | teclo- | on wikipedia |