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| 00:10.59 | w1d3m0d3 | hey uh what about the addon thing in firefox |
| 00:12.16 | dvs | I thought they put out that update today? |
| 00:12.28 | dax | they did, i saw people talking about it on stable earlier, and i got it on testing |
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| 00:14.34 | w1d3m0d3 | I can't get it since studies are disabled |
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| 00:14.45 | w1d3m0d3 | wait unless you mean there was an update |
| 00:14.46 | dax | it's a regular debian package update |
| 00:14.47 | dax | yes |
| 00:14.52 | w1d3m0d3 | ohh okay, one sec then |
| 00:15.26 | w1d3m0d3 | yep ive got some updates in the backlog |
| 00:15.42 | w1d3m0d3 | oh good, nvidia updates too, I think it was causing some lockups on my machine |
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| 00:20.35 | w1d3m0d3 | yep that did it |
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| 00:23.17 | nt80 | what is the temporary fix for firefox esr in debian to reenable plugins? |
| 00:24.33 | w1d3m0d3 | nt80: update |
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| 00:26.40 | annadane | yep update your firefox-esr |
| 00:26.57 | nt80 | is there an update ? the latest version i see for stretch is 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1 |
| 00:27.42 | w1d3m0d3 | sudo apt update |
| 00:27.48 | w1d3m0d3 | there is |
| 00:27.57 | annadane | apt update is to refresh the mirrors |
| 00:27.57 | apt | okay, annadane |
| 00:28.12 | annadane | to apply the upgrade either apt upgrade or for firefox-esr specifically apt install firefox-esr |
| 00:28.19 | w1d3m0d3 | yes, maybe his are out of date since he says theres no update |
| 00:28.24 | annadane | fair enough |
| 00:28.25 | nt80 | hum i did apt update twice |
| 00:28.37 | annadane | post your sources list? paste.debian.net |
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| 00:28.47 | dvs | ,v firefox-esr |
| 00:28.48 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 60.6.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 60.6.2esr-1; sid: 60.6.2esr-1 |
| 00:29.22 | annadane | oh, maybe it is up to date |
| 00:30.14 | dvs | ii firefox-esr 60.6.2esr-1~deb amd64 Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support |
| 00:30.30 | dvs | in stable |
| 00:30.35 | nt80 | firefox-esr is already the newest version (60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1). |
| 00:30.51 | nt80 | http://paste.debian.net/1081777/ my sources |
| 00:31.34 | dvs | I guess you didn't do an update |
| 00:31.51 | dvs | or your local mirror didnt do an update |
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| 00:36.21 | nt80 | http://paste.debian.net/1081778/ |
| 00:36.33 | nt80 | what is wrong with it? |
| 00:39.14 | RoyK | just run apt dist-upgrade |
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| 02:44.14 | hatter_ | I am trying to setup vncserver on debian 9, however this box is saying this : Starting applications specified in /etc/X11/Xvnc-session instead of this : Starting applications specified in /home/admin/.vnc/xstartup |
| 02:44.29 | hatter_ | can somebody please point me in the direction of why ? |
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| 03:05.03 | dvs | hatter_, I used to put the starting script in /etc/init.d/tightvncserver but I don't know where to put it now. |
| 03:05.40 | hatter_ | dvs: i have the startup script, however when it's run it is not using xstartup |
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| 03:08.10 | hatter_ | and then not running xfce4 |
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| 03:09.31 | dvs | hatter_, mine start with "/usr/bin/tigervncserver -localhost no :1" |
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| 03:10.07 | hatter_ | when you execute that from the command line, is it using xstartup from the user's .vnc ? |
| 03:10.16 | dvs | yes |
| 03:10.28 | hatter_ | my other box here is also. |
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| 03:10.54 | hatter_ | however this box, isn't. it is doing htis : /etc/X11/Xvnc-session |
| 03:11.58 | hatter_ | however it was working. until i tried removing and switching to a different vncserver becuase the keymap wasn't working with virtualbox |
| 03:12.03 | hatter_ | *sigh* |
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| 03:14.31 | fling | What is the proper way of installing icecat/iceweasel/another-firefox-replacement ? |
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| 03:22.33 | rant | debian has firefox-esr its installed with apt install firefox-esr |
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| 03:26.16 | fling | rant: firefox-esr got installed with `install iceweasel` |
| 03:26.50 | rant | yeah well iceweasel doesnt exist anymore |
| 03:27.12 | rant | iceweasel was a compromise years ago due to debian and mozilla policies conflicting |
| 03:27.34 | rant | debian requires everything in main to be freely modified, and we modify all our packages at least somewhat |
| 03:27.45 | rant | firefox wasnt allowing use of their name if it was modified |
| 03:27.58 | rant | so we had to either get rid of it from main, or change the name |
| 03:28.06 | rant | that is no longer required |
| 03:28.24 | rant | firefox now has a product they call esr and it complies with debian's requirements |
| 03:28.33 | mandeep | fling: esr was updated today if you're worried about the recent bug |
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| 03:30.04 | fling | rant: does this mean esr is not getting patched by debian? |
| 03:30.17 | fling | rant: is it a binary straight from mozilla? |
| 03:30.20 | rant | it IS getting patched by debian |
| 03:30.26 | rant | debian doesn't allow binaries |
| 03:30.37 | rant | anything in main has to fully comply with DFSG |
| 03:30.42 | rant | ,i firefox-esr |
| 03:30.43 | judd | Package firefox-esr (web, optional) in stretch/amd64: Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support Release (ESR). Version: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; Size: 41442.1k; Installed: 160287k; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/firefox-esr |
| 03:30.58 | rant | thats in the main secrtion of the repos |
| 03:31.11 | dvs | wrong version still |
| 03:31.34 | dvs | unless the update is only in security |
| 03:31.37 | rant | https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/firefox-esr |
| 03:31.46 | nt80 | can't update on stretch |
| 03:31.55 | rant | ,v firefox-esr |
| 03:31.57 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 60.6.2esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 60.6.2esr-1; sid: 60.6.2esr-1 |
| 03:32.24 | dvs | only in updates |
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| 03:43.49 | mandeep | oops sorry i realized i was talking about testing.not sure if it's hit stable |
| 03:44.19 | dvs | stable-updates |
| 03:44.24 | mandeep | ah yes |
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| 03:55.31 | nt80 | http://paste.debian.net/1081782/ apt show firefox-esr -a show both version 60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1 and 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1 |
| 03:55.44 | nt80 | how can i install the newest |
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| 03:57.49 | nt80 | oh finally |
| 03:57.54 | nt80 | that one worked: apt-get install firefox-esr=60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1 |
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| 04:33.53 | fling | Is not systemd removal planned? |
| 04:34.41 | fling | When is buster going stable? |
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| 04:35.22 | Unit193 | Why would it? And buster will be released when the list of rc bugs is gone. |
| 04:36.37 | rant | fling: same as all the rest of the debian releases, when its ready |
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| 04:37.09 | rant | fling: https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ |
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| 04:38.31 | fling | Unit193: I had numerous issues with systemd where I had to use it (e.g. debian). |
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| 04:39.04 | rant | lots of people have PICNICs |
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| 04:40.24 | fling | rant: good idea! |
| 04:40.35 | rant | no, not really |
| 04:40.43 | fling | shaslick time coming |
| 04:41.02 | nt80 | there's a video on YT called 'The Tragedy of systemd' |
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| 05:43.21 | darxmurf | morning |
| 05:44.10 | rant | do you have pictures? |
| 05:44.48 | rant | if you don't have pictures, it didn't happen... rules of the internet |
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| 06:02.08 | darxmurf | https://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfgangstaudt/6411738981 |
| 06:02.10 | darxmurf | here |
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| 06:02.47 | darxmurf | or here, closer to my place https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/04/8a/c1048a1d5a75ef814781db8c715c6439.jpg |
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| 07:12.37 | dff | rwp: thanks, but i made a complete reinstall from a normal iso, not the live cd. |
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| 07:19.15 | dff | im trying to follow this guide - https://www.tecmint.com/install-debian-8-with-luks-encrypted-home-var-lvm-partitions/ |
| 07:19.19 | dff | on stretch |
| 07:20.08 | dff | under section 8. why does he want /root to have a bootable flag. (1 the installer wont let me, 2) shouldnt /boot be it's own partition with bootable flag?) |
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| 07:30.41 | humpled | looks like this howto will encrypt /var and /home, not the whole root (/) directory, so no separate /boot is required |
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| 07:31.38 | dff | humpled: any suggestions for what i can do, i have a 1TB disk and i only want to use half of it for my debian install, the rest i want to leave unpartitioned for later |
| 07:32.05 | dff | i want the base system encrypted, i dont mind if boot isnt |
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| 07:36.40 | humpled | they create a 2nd partition in step 9, at this point you would choose to take only half of the drive |
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| 07:37.11 | humpled | they use all of the rest because they only have 20GB from the VM manager |
| 07:38.26 | humpled | it is this 2nd partition which will be an encrypted container for /var and /home |
| 07:38.48 | Sia- | hi, the config is created and works fine with ubuntu desktop and win10, but not on my debian nas server http://dpaste.com/16VBYT6 |
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| 07:39.15 | dff | humpled: what about /boot |
| 07:40.00 | humpled | <PROTECTED> |
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| 07:40.32 | dff | ah, problem is, the partitioning tool in the installer wont let me let it to bootable |
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| 07:41.34 | dff | and wouldnt you want a separate partition for /boot and encrypt evething else |
| 07:41.52 | dff | or is the /root we are talking about now, not /root of the installed system later |
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| 07:42.16 | humpled | now we are talking about root, the parent directory |
| 07:42.25 | dff | right |
| 07:42.28 | humpled | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:42.41 | dff | exactly, so wouldnt one want that encrypted also |
| 07:43.05 | humpled | would you? |
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| 07:43.19 | humpled | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:43.45 | humpled | site data would be in /var, personal data would be in /home |
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| 07:44.41 | wolf359 | hi |
| 07:44.59 | humpled | by there i mean /, /root doesn't contain anything of interest unless the root user puts their own stuff there |
| 07:45.14 | dff | i see |
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| 07:49.34 | valentt | Hi, I'm having some mysql (mariadb) craziness and I'm pulling my hair out... |
| 07:49.53 | valentt | I did a clean mariadb-server install but can't start the service |
| 07:51.18 | humpled | some people do use a /boot partition and encrypt everything else though dff but you'd want a different howto |
| 07:52.54 | humpled | years ago /boot was separate, small, bootable and primary for legacy reasons, then those things became unnecessary, now that model is coming back with efi and gpt and lvm and encryption |
| 07:53.07 | humpled | at least one us needs to do more reading :) |
| 07:53.21 | dff | that would be me |
| 07:54.32 | humpled | well me too |
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| 08:20.52 | Enissay | I am logged in a remote server via ssh. How can I download a given file to my destop ? |
| 08:21.51 | klys | instead of ssh -p port user@server do this scp -P port user@server:/path/to/file /path/to/Desktop |
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| 08:39.30 | dff | there are A LOT of complications that come with installing debian from a smaller iso without a network connection |
| 08:39.54 | dff | i only have wifi access and need non free packages |
| 08:40.00 | dff | for it to work |
| 08:40.34 | jelly | !firmware images |
| 08:40.34 | dpkg | Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/ and ask me about <install guide>. |
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| 08:40.49 | dff | thank you jelly |
| 08:41.31 | dff | which one has KDE on it? |
| 08:44.26 | jelly | none of them I think, use firmware netinst and let it download the components for tasks you choose (including the DE) |
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| 09:06.09 | ryouba | hi! |
| 09:06.29 | ryouba | i've just installed the (relatively new?) "owncloud-files" (instead of "owncloud" as it used to be) package. |
| 09:06.55 | jelly | ,v owncloud-files |
| 09:06.56 | judd | No package named 'owncloud-files' was found in amd64. |
| 09:07.33 | ryouba | it works, but the code-signing file integrity check that owncloud has built in fails, fore core, not for any app. is there any way to fix that |
| 09:07.35 | ryouba | ? |
| 09:07.50 | ryouba | jelly: oh. how do i find out where that package came from? |
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| 09:08.15 | jelly | ryouba: if it's still available from a repo, apt-cache policy packagename |
| 09:08.29 | jelly | but otherwise you can't easily find out once it's installed |
| 09:08.45 | ryouba | oh. it's their (owncloud's) own package. nevermind me then, sorry for asking here. |
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| 09:37.21 | dff | jelly: this is would i need to do to get my nic working -> https://wiki.debian.org/wl |
| 09:37.51 | dff | are the packages in 2) included in that iso? |
| 09:39.33 | dff | perhaps i need to make my own installer image. |
| 09:41.42 | dff | would=what |
| 09:42.07 | ryouba | another question: when upgrading from Jessie to Stretch, should I temporarily remove third-party repositories or rather update their /etc/apt/sources.d/* entries to say "stretch" instead of "jessie" just like with /etc/apt/sources.list? |
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| 10:22.45 | andre144k | hi all - how to find all files which user "nobody" group "nobody" cant read? |
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| 10:25.04 | RoyK | andre144k: su -s /bin/bash - nobody |
| 10:25.08 | RoyK | then look around ;) |
| 10:26.00 | andre144k | RoyK, i wnat use find. |
| 10:26.30 | RoyK | andre144k: then better use find as 'nobody' |
| 10:27.21 | RoyK | andre144k: thing is, if a directory lacks +x for a user/group, you can't traverse it even though the files under it are theoretically readable |
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| 10:27.46 | RoyK | so better just su to the user and do the checks from there |
| 10:29.27 | humpled | hmm |
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| 10:35.26 | andre144k | RoyK, thx... |
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| 10:49.32 | hiatus | is there a 32 bit version of atom? |
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| 11:07.25 | rant | hiatus: as in the atom cpu? |
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| 11:08.36 | rant | because the atom cpu was 32bit before it was 64bit |
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| 11:11.31 | hiatus | yup, an old netbook |
| 11:11.45 | hiatus | oh |
| 11:11.51 | hiatus | no, the text editor |
| 11:12.42 | hiatus | looking for a good 32 bit text editor |
| 11:13.56 | rant | yes well any text editor thats in amd64 in debian is also in i386 |
| 11:14.09 | petn-randall | hiatus: There are dozens packaged in Debian, why not use one of those? |
| 11:14.10 | Night_Elf | I was actually thinking the same. |
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| 12:14.21 | ryouba | nm upgrade went smoothly |
| 12:14.41 | dvs | rats! |
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| 14:01.08 | shtrb | can grub-efi correct a bad ESP parttion ? |
| 14:03.21 | shtrb | background - During an install of stretch, the ESP folder (along all others) had been nuked from existence (user error). Would a reinstall correct this parttion content (I have recreated a parttion , set it's type to 0xEF (EFI) ) ? |
| 14:03.33 | shtrb | *ESP parttion |
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| 14:33.47 | jelly | which package ought to contain udev rules to automagically enable hot-plugged CPU and RAM? CentOS magically adds both on its own, but Debian 9 does not |
| 14:34.08 | ksk | cpus are hot-pluggable? nice! |
| 14:34.58 | jelly | yes, and disks that already already spinning can be stretched to a larger size. Virtualization makes things magical. |
| 14:35.09 | jelly | s/already/are/ |
| 14:35.24 | shtrb | Magic is just complex software |
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| 14:35.51 | shtrb | and black magic is systemd and python |
| 14:36.30 | willemb | Would the primary reason for configserver sercurity and firewall (csf) to not be in debian (or any other distro, for that matter), be because it is not distrubuted under an open-source license? |
| 14:37.02 | ksk | willemb: totally. debian packages only free softawre (as per debian definitions..) |
| 14:37.05 | shtrb | !dfsg |
| 14:37.05 | dpkg | DFSG is the Debian Free Software Guidelines, which are explained at http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines . For a full list of DFSG-compatible/incompatible software licenses, see http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses |
| 14:37.10 | shtrb | willemb, ^ |
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| 14:39.01 | jerry | which is better, installing directly with apt or using docker apps? |
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| 14:39.42 | IOhannes | better for what? |
| 14:39.52 | jerry | just in general |
| 14:40.01 | ksk | jerry: using apt and the official debian repos gives you the all the debian qualities. Using a 3rd party repo/machanism is not supported by debian so to say. |
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| 14:40.19 | ksk | also, docker has had a very, very bad security record so far, if you ask me.. |
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| 14:40.24 | jerry | hrm, good to know |
| 14:40.47 | jerry | thanks ksk |
| 14:40.55 | ksk | more about the guys doing packages for docker, than the docker itself. also, take a look about what LXC says about priviledged containers (dockers are) |
| 14:41.21 | ksk | "LXC upstream's position is that those containers aren't and cannot be root-safe. |
| 14:41.26 | ksk | " from: https://linuxcontainers.org/lxc/security/ |
| 14:41.43 | jerry | i'll read over that thanks |
| 14:42.07 | IOhannes | and many docker images will be based on Debian anyhow; so you install a (minimal) debian system on your debian system |
| 14:42.28 | IOhannes | and you might just run a very old snapshot, because nobody cared to update the docker image |
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| 14:44.30 | jerry | i installed my debian box like this article describes: https://blog.linuxserver.io/2017/06/24/the-perfect-media-server-2017/ |
| 14:44.51 | jerry | i been thinking maybe the docer apps were a bad idea |
| 14:45.42 | jerry | s/docer/docker |
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| 14:52.32 | Enissay | klys: Thx <3 |
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| 14:57.14 | IOhannes | anybody knows what's the plan for virtualbox and stretch? will it be made available thru "backports"? via "fastpaced"? or only via "unstable"? |
| 14:57.29 | IOhannes | s/stretch/buster/ (ofcourse) |
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| 14:58.01 | ksk | ,v virtualbox |
| 14:58.02 | judd | Package: virtualbox on amd64 -- jessie/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; jessie-security/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; stretch-backports/contrib: 5.2.24-dfsg-4~bpo9+1; sid/contrib: 6.0.6-dfsg-1 |
| 14:58.17 | IOhannes | so? |
| 14:58.18 | themill | it's not in buster at all, so backports only it seems |
| 14:58.37 | IOhannes | according to backports-policy, it will be removed from backports as well (i guess) |
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| 14:58.59 | ksk | IOhannes: whats the reason for removal? |
| 14:59.10 | IOhannes | #794466 |
| 14:59.11 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/794466 in src:virtualbox (open, stretch, sid, buster): «virtualbox: might not be suitable for stable releases due to lack of cooperation from upstream on security support for older releases»; severity: serious; opened: 2015-08-03; last modified: 2019-03-14. |
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| 14:59.18 | snuffkins | Hi, is there some easy way to get apt-get to colour code packages that are already installed? |
| 14:59.28 | ksk | thx. |
| 14:59.38 | themill | IOhannes: "not suitable for stable" isn't always interpreted as "not stable for backports" |
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| 15:00.32 | ksk | just oracle things :( |
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| 15:01.09 | IOhannes | themill: last night i read up on the "Repository for fast-paced package backports" thread on debian-backports@l.d.o (2018/12-2019/01) |
| 15:01.17 | IOhannes | which was kind of discouraging... |
| 15:01.48 | themill | It was yet another circular discussion. |
| 15:01.51 | ksk | from the second post in the issue: "because Upstream (Oracle) refuses to give patches for CVEs" [/snip] |
| 15:02.03 | ksk | does not sound likely it will get into backports then if you asked me.. |
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| 15:02.37 | themill | ksk: it *is* in backports. |
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| 15:03.08 | jelly | see also: why there're no newer versions mysql in debian and most distros any more |
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| 15:03.27 | themill | virtualbox is a "find a CVE" "here have a new upstream version" package |
| 15:03.45 | IOhannes | jelly: because of mariadb? |
| 15:03.48 | themill | It's like RHL 4 all over again. |
| 15:04.05 | ksk | IOhannes: no, because of the oracle policy themill just described. |
| 15:04.13 | ksk | mariadb is just a reaction to that, kind of. |
| 15:04.23 | IOhannes | ah ok. |
| 15:04.41 | IOhannes | themill: backports ftp masters will probably remove virtualbox, once they are aware that it is no longer in testing |
| 15:04.44 | jelly | IOhannes: because there are no viable patches, "here we throw a new release tarball over the wall, it fixes 15 CVEs and makes 15 unrelated changes, take it or leave it" |
| 15:04.46 | IOhannes | as in https://lists.debian.org/debian-backports/2019/03/msg00007.html |
| 15:04.54 | themill | IOhannes: no |
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| 15:05.08 | jelly | so distros left it. |
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| 15:05.47 | IOhannes | themill: that would be great (if they won't remove it from bpo), but why do you think so? |
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| 15:06.45 | themill | because it's still there and this has been discussed many times over many years |
| 15:07.10 | IOhannes | ok. thanks for the heads up. |
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| 15:08.46 | themill | (I switched to kvm / libvirt for everything once virtualbox stopped being free software) |
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| 15:10.01 | Rob_Jones | Chucked this in #Docker but firing it here too |
| 15:10.03 | Rob_Jones | so cause I am using jessie, I have to put the mirror to archive.debian.com is there like a superglobal way of stating that for docker so that when i apt-get update it won't return 404's for me |
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| 15:10.28 | Rob_Jones | or do i likely have to state that for each container |
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| 15:11.30 | themill | (I wonder where the tipping point is between gross hacks to continue to use an unsupported release and just running a supported release) |
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| 15:13.32 | rant | Rob_Jones: no, you need to modify your sources.list because certain sources need to be removed as they no longer exist |
| 15:13.49 | rant | its not just merely a substitution of mirrors for archive.debian.org |
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| 15:14.49 | rant | not being arsed to upgrade to a supported release is one thing, not doing basic maint tasks like changing your sources is another |
| 15:14.59 | Rob_Jones | rant |
| 15:15.09 | Rob_Jones | the supported release isn't my choice |
| 15:15.25 | Rob_Jones | im just trying to work with what I have been asked to do |
| 15:15.52 | themill | I assume you have it in writing that you're supposed to be deploying software with know security vulnerabilities. |
| 15:15.54 | greycat | Fix your jessie systems so they no longer attempt to retrieve jessie-updates which do not exist any more. |
| 15:16.12 | rant | you will get no sympathy from me.. I am a big fan of telling people to forcefully insert things into ther rears when they tell me to do dumb stuff |
| 15:16.18 | ksk | haviing that in writing sounds like a good idea.. |
| 15:16.29 | Rob_Jones | even if it involves losing your job rant? |
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| 15:16.49 | themill | (actually, jessie-updates came back and is just empty) |
| 15:16.54 | greycat | wow |
| 15:16.58 | rant | yes.. because people call tech pros to do the right thing, otherwise they should do it themselves if they think they know better |
| 15:17.01 | ksk | Rob_Jones: just try to get the "go" from a CTO - might help in your situation ;) |
| 15:17.01 | greycat | then... uh... what's this all about? |
| 15:17.12 | themill | greycat: security.d.o and backports are still gone |
| 15:17.18 | Rob_Jones | the person who asked me to do this is the director of IT |
| 15:17.24 | Rob_Jones | ksk ^ |
| 15:17.25 | ksk | not really a debian question, but these C* people tend to not want to sign off such an endavor. |
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| 15:18.31 | themill | https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie-updates/Release â one of the more boring sets of hashes |
| 15:18.33 | Rob_Jones | trust me when i say |
| 15:18.36 | greycat | Fix your jessie systems so they retrieve from the proper sources. |
| 15:18.46 | rant | jobs are severely overrated.. and careers aren't made by blindly following fools hoping to get somewhere |
| 15:18.47 | Rob_Jones | upgrading to a supported release would make my job 10x easier |
| 15:19.20 | Rob_Jones | thing is life costs money and unfortunately a job is needed to pay the bills |
| 15:20.08 | Rob_Jones | im gunna look at altering the sources files though |
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| 15:29.43 | JoshShell | I set prlimit in /etc/security/limits.d/ It set on the console, but not X11. Using lightdm |
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| 15:32.30 | jelly | JoshShell: stuff in that directory is just config files for PAM enabled services. Make sure /etc/pam.d/lightdm has pam_limits.so enabled |
| 15:32.55 | jelly | sorry, just config files for pam_limits PAM module |
| 15:33.16 | JoshShell | 19 lines /etc/pam.d/lightdm |
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| 15:34.29 | jelly | JoshShell: compare with /etc/pam.d/login (login service is what's used at the console) |
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| 15:48.04 | ctcx | Sorry if stupid question... I still struggle to understand the difference between burning ISOs with burning software and with dd... Which cases would one use one or the other for? |
| 15:49.03 | jelly | ctcx: on Linux, you can't burn cd or dvd media with dd |
| 15:49.07 | nt80 | burning to a cd-rom ? |
| 15:49.45 | ctcx | Yes, to cdrom |
| 15:50.01 | rant | ctcx: when you want it to work you use burning software, when you want to do something that doesn't work use dd |
| 15:50.02 | jelly | you can write images to usb sticks using cp or dd, if they're created to be usable that way (Debian's installer images are) |
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| 15:51.45 | ctcx | Aahh, so I can indeed use dd for ISO -> USB stick, but *not* ISO -> physical CD/DVD |
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| 15:52.40 | jhutchins_wk | ctcx: A writable CD/DVD is not seen as a block device by the system. The "file system" is essentially one continuous file. |
| 15:54.02 | ctcx | Aahhhh |
| 15:54.10 | ctcx | Thanks. |
| 15:54.28 | rant | ctcx: you can just forget about dd, you can use cp for usb stick |
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| 15:54.55 | ctcx | I heavily doubt plain cp works to make a *bootable* USB stick |
| 15:54.59 | ctcx | Or can it? |
| 15:55.03 | rant | it can |
| 15:55.12 | rant | cp debian.iso /dev/sdd |
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| 15:56.27 | ctcx | jelly, jhutchins_wk: if I may ask then, in your opinion, why is it then dd normally used for these things instead of plain cp? There must be still a reason... |
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| 15:59.16 | jhutchins_wk | ctcx: There was a bit of dark mystery about it. If properly tuned, dd can be faster, but somebody pointed out that any copy utility can be used, and now that's pretty much the norm. |
| 15:59.17 | rant | legacy, the ability to do this is recent |
| 15:59.30 | jhutchins_wk | rant: Not so much. |
| 15:59.43 | rant | dd has been used for ages to write images |
| 16:00.15 | jhutchins_wk | ctcx: Yes, cp does work. |
| 16:00.19 | dax | everyone uses dd because everyone else uses dd :) |
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| 16:01.27 | jhutchins_wk | dax: Pretty much. It's a tool that nobody uses for anything but disk images, so it was regarded as "special" by ordinary users. |
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| 16:04.29 | EdePopede | extracting parts of files and composing new ones. or is there a better cli tool to handle wad files? |
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| 16:06.38 | jelly | ctcx: debian installer instructions suggest using cp, not dd. |
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| 16:06.57 | ctcx | !? |
| 16:07.05 | ctcx | (Checking...) |
| 16:07.05 | jelly | !install guide |
| 16:07.07 | dpkg | The Installation Guide for Debian 9 "Stretch" can be found at https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/installmanual . See also <errata> and <stretch release notes>. |
| 16:07.19 | ctcx | Already saw it, thanks |
| 16:07.35 | ksk | !usb install |
| 16:07.35 | dpkg | You can install Debian from a USB stick/thumbdrive/pen drive/key on x86 systems, as long as your system's BIOS can boot from USB. Details are in the Installation Guide, see http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03 and ask me about <install debian> for hybrid CD/DVD images. Use http://sf.net/projects/win32diskimager/ to write images from Windows. For BIOSes not capable of USB boot, ask me about <plop>. |
| 16:07.45 | greycat | !start a cp vs. dd war |
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| 16:08.01 | jelly | pv forever |
| 16:08.02 | ctcx | Motherf*****......... moments when I hate how world changes whenever feeling...... |
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| 16:08.54 | ctcx | Now I don't know whether it's the head or nose which is hurting me now... |
| 16:09.20 | jelly | ctcx: in short, d-i image calls itself .iso but is both a bootable ISO and a bootable disk image at the same time. |
| 16:09.43 | shtrb | !chemera |
| 16:09.49 | shtrb | !hybrid |
| 16:10.16 | jelly | images created that way are often called "hybrid" yes |
| 16:10.30 | shtrb | wasn't there a factoid for that ? |
| 16:10.39 | ctcx | greycat: starting an argue was not my least intention, sorry if I made look like it. My previous lines were just my frustration. |
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| 16:12.10 | rant | !hybrid cd |
| 16:12.11 | dpkg | Since the 6.0 "Squeeze" release, Debian installation images for x86 systems - e.g. <netinst>, <CD1>, DVD1 - are hybrid images. These can be written directly to CD or HD Media (e.g. USB thumbdrive) without further preparation. See http://www.debian.org/News/project/2010/14/#hybrid for details. See also <install debian>, <usb install>. |
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| 16:13.36 | ctcx | jelly: so, years ago, even if USB technology was obviously out there already, writing ISOs to USBs was not a common thing? ISOs back then were not "hybrid", thus not able to write to anything but a CD/DVD? |
| 16:13.51 | ctcx | Could it be that today most of ISO files of whatever are actually "hybrid"? |
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| 16:14.05 | jelly | ctcx: you would be able to write them, but they would not be bootable. |
| 16:14.32 | shtrb | Hybrid cd is as old as iso itself, we used to have audio on data cd like that |
| 16:14.57 | rant | that was a mixed-mode iso with multiple tracks |
| 16:15.09 | jelly | shtrb: that's a completely different meaning and "hybrid" there is an attribute of the media, not the iso |
| 16:15.33 | EdePopede | audio first iirc, the other approach causing problems in some audio players |
| 16:15.42 | jelly | (iso9660 format does not/cannot contain CD audio tracks) |
| 16:15.52 | EdePopede | and wasn't there also something with "super floppy"? |
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| 16:16.47 | rant | isolinux/syslinux perhaps? |
| 16:16.53 | jelly | ctcx: windows installer images are not bootable from usb right away, you need to use a separate tool to create a bootable usb stick |
| 16:19.00 | jelly | (the tool basically formats a fat32 filesystem, copies files from .iso and writes a boot loader. WoeUSB can do this on Linux and I _think_ it uses syslinux as boot loader; no idea what the native windows tool does) |
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| 16:21.45 | jelly | and you don't need to do any of that for debian installer images. UEFI makes things more interesting because now you need not 2 but 3 (or maybe 4?) different ways for one image to be bootable: as cd/dvd media, as usb stick for BIOS/"legacy" boot, as usb stick for UEFI |
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| 16:24.10 | EdePopede | what i've seen, on the live the grub screens look different for bios and uefi versions? also only uefi seems to support editing |
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| 16:26.52 | shtrb | If you are preparing to install the win10 installer , don't you are going to have a bad time |
| 16:27.04 | shtrb | win10 restore media installer , not just installer |
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| 16:29.02 | jelly | I made a win10 installer usb pretty much painlessly with WinUSB (previous incarnation of WoeUSB) |
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| 16:29.44 | shtrb | jelly, It's not that it will not work, but there is an "issue" with the rescue media (not the standard clean installer) |
| 16:30.05 | jelly | and found out microsoft apparently publishes their .iso with patches included every month, so you get an updated or almost up-to-date installation if you download it fresh |
| 16:30.34 | jelly | much like debian's point releases |
| 16:30.55 | shtrb | jelly, microsft provide two solution a clean installation iso (work with no issue) and rescue media (like debian-installer troubleshooting minus all the fancy stuff) |
| 16:31.33 | shtrb | there is a problem with 1803 (or 1809) with some laptops that it will not finish installations (failure on last step) |
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| 16:33.46 | jelly | EdePopede: it's possible they're intentionally different so you knwo what your machine booted into? |
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| 16:34.43 | EdePopede | good point. i always F12. |
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| 16:35.34 | jelly | (I mean, whether it booted the uefi way or the bios way) |
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| 16:37.00 | EdePopede | the PC where i use it is my first with uefi. beneath the other options it shows me the pendrive with 2 subentries, for bios and uefi. |
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| 16:41.39 | ctcx | jelly: ok, for Linux/Unix images dd/cp can be enough indeed. But Windows is different, for obvious reasons (among which what you explained is included). For Win10 I have used either Rufus or their own media creation tool. |
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| 16:41.54 | ctcx | Also, just read this https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/12532/dd-vs-cat-is-dd-still-relevant-these-days |
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| 16:43.19 | jelly | and in fact, rufus, unetbootin and similar often mess up if you give it a debian image to deal with |
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| 16:46.27 | ctcx | But, for BIOS or UEFI booting, I thought Debian ISO included both "ways" in the ISO file. So, burning into DVD is not a problem; DVD seems to include both ways for when I install either on BIOS or UEFI PCs. But Rufus does ask you whether BIOS (MBR) or UEFI (GPT). And the USB seems to be written with just *one* of them. |
| 16:46.34 | ctcx | jelly: so, this thing, either MBR or UEFI, how do I do that using dd or cp? |
| 16:46.50 | nt80 | do someone ever use dd to write entropy to disk before creating encrypted partition? |
| 16:47.10 | greycat | Debian installer images are specially crafted so they can be used on CDs or USBs. |
| 16:47.35 | humpled | specially crafted |
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| 16:51.27 | ctcx | So if writing them to USB with dd or cp, the USB will be equally usable for BIOS and UEFI? |
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| 16:53.44 | shtrb | why really woeusb not in debian ? |
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| 17:00.19 | ctcx | So if writing them to USB with dd or cp, the USB will be equally usable for BIOS and UEFI? |
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| 17:04.52 | jmcnaught | ctcx: Debian installer images boot from BIOS and UEFI if copied correctly to the USB stick, the instructions are in the install manual if you're still not sure |
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| 17:07.01 | jhutchins_wk | Hint: you can boot to an iso on a hard disk (like for installing a VM). |
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| 17:13.12 | uio | My Firefox addons have disappeared after updating! Sigh... |
| 17:13.37 | greycat | are you caught in a time anomaly? is it yesterday where you are? |
| 17:14.06 | karlpinc | nt80: Sure. All the time. But actual entropry takes way too long, use /dev/urandom, not /dev/random. And I always use a block size in the MB. Really, whether it's worth it depends on your threat model -- if you care whether someone knows how much data you've written. Also note that SSDs do not "do so good" when full, so leave an unused partition of 20% or so. |
| 17:14.18 | ctcx | If using cp or cat, what about the buffer sizes? Not necessary to specify unlike in dd? |
| 17:14.27 | greycat | Not *able* to specify. |
| 17:14.40 | uio | greycat, Lol. You mean after yesterday's discussion here? |
| 17:14.47 | Oberon4278 | Does Debian have a specific, umm... rollout.... thing? Tool? |
| 17:14.47 | greycat | one of the main reasons anyone uses dd for anything ever is because it lets you specify the block size |
| 17:15.03 | ksk | ctcx: not sure if we need to talk about that all day, but afaik the defaults are better if you just use cp.. |
| 17:15.06 | uio | Or maybe you were talking to someone else. |
| 17:15.21 | Oberon4278 | You know, where you have a disk image and you want to use that image to automatically set up a bunch of machines? |
| 17:15.21 | ksk | if you know blocksizes etc, dd will be faster. |
| 17:15.28 | nt80 | karlpinc fully agree |
| 17:15.33 | greycat | uio: firefox addons broke over the weekend even if you DIDN'T upgrade. The updated firefox-esr packages that went out the last couple days fix that. |
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| 17:15.43 | Oberon4278 | Or an install script so you can automatically install with specific settings and a default package list? |
| 17:15.46 | Oberon4278 | Something like Chef |
| 17:17.00 | uio | greycat, Okay, but for me, the fix is just that me addons are gone... |
| 17:17.19 | uio | And that I cannot install them again. |
| 17:17.21 | uio | Sigh. |
| 17:17.22 | jordanm | Oberon4278: bare metal, VMs, or cloud? |
| 17:18.24 | Oberon4278 | Well, that's a great question. |
| 17:18.38 | karlpinc | greycat: I don't _think_ I've got ff add-on issues, but looking at the email on debian-stable-announce and comparing it to what I've got installed: The announce says 60.6.2-1~deb9u1, I have installed 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1. But updating and upgrading installs nothing new. |
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| 17:18.58 | greycat | make sure you have a stretch-updates source |
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| 17:19.18 | uio | I do, but for .jp ... |
| 17:19.19 | karlpinc | Do I not care? FF seems to work. |
| 17:19.42 | Oberon4278 | Okay here's a better question. I've used Chef before. Will the knowledge gained there pretty much map to other provisioning tools? |
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| 17:19.56 | karlpinc | greycat: (and I don't have stretch-updates. Most of the time I figure I'll just wait and avoid the shiny.) |
| 17:20.03 | jhutchins_wk | Oberon4278: Debian's native install scripting tool is "preseed", it also has kickstart available. |
| 17:20.24 | ksk | Oberon4278: kinda liky experience in one programming language helps you learn new ones I suppose.. |
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| 17:20.57 | uio | karlpinc, ?? |
| 17:21.29 | karlpinc | uio: I was responding to greycat's FF comment. |
| 17:21.29 | jordanm | Oberon4278: for config management, chef is most similar to puppet, but ansible is the config management tool with all of the momentum at the moment |
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| 17:21.45 | Oberon4278 | I figure they can't be *too* terribly different. I just don't want to walk into this job interview and calmly assert that I can pick up the new tech quickly because I'm familiar with Chef and have them go "You fool! You've fallen victim to one of the classic blunders!" |
| 17:22.11 | ctcx | Ok, I'll need to read more about the topic. |
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| 17:22.28 | jordanm | Oberon4278: if you want bare metal/VM provisioning in a more "traditional" infra management style, I would recommend looking at something like foreman/red hat satellite |
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| 17:22.42 | Oberon4278 | Okay, jordanm, thank you. I'll check it out and see what I can see. |
| 17:22.54 | Oberon4278 | Amid grumbles of "in my day," etc. |
| 17:22.56 | ctcx | Then finally last doubt. Any difference between creating an ISO file from a CD/DVD using burning software and dd/cp/cat? |
| 17:23.09 | jordanm | but orgs in general are moving away from that style of infra management in favor of more "cloud native" approaches |
| 17:23.26 | Oberon4278 | We didn't NEED the cloud! Except for keeping the crops green. |
| 17:23.28 | Oberon4278 | And we liked it! |
| 17:23.31 | jordanm | eg. container orchestration systems like k8s/openshift |
| 17:23.33 | Oberon4278 | yeah |
| 17:23.42 | Oberon4278 | which I think is absurd and wrong, but I'm not the boss |
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| 17:23.52 | jhutchins_wk | Oberon4278: chef/puppet/ansible are not usually the basis for a provisioning tool, they're configuration management. |
| 17:24.05 | karlpinc | ctcx: Well, "burning software" does not make the ISO, only writes it. But no, when you burn onto optical media you get what you'd get with dd/etc. on other media. |
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| 17:24.19 | jordanm | I disagree, it's absolutely a needed change, but I have been working in aws only environments for the last 5yrs or so |
| 17:25.00 | jhutchins_wk | ctcx: I believe you're over-thinking this. It's probably time to waste some time trying things out. |
| 17:25.09 | Oberon4278 | Why do you see it as a needed change? |
| 17:25.33 | jelly | jhutchins_wk: for me, ansible is pretty much a provisioning tool. No provisions (p.n.i.) to store and manage actual config. |
| 17:26.20 | jelly | ctcx: burning software does not do CD/DVD to ISO. Ripping software does. |
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| 17:26.43 | jelly | is too slow. |
| 17:26.55 | karlpinc | Better late than never. |
| 17:27.09 | jordanm | Oberon4278: because the way that we architect applications has changed and the old infrastructure models can not properly keep up with those new designs |
| 17:27.40 | Oberon4278 | Can you give some examples of the new application architectures? |
| 17:27.42 | jelly | Oberon4278: FAI is very much debian oriented |
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| 17:27.52 | jelly | it's also very old |
| 17:28.08 | Oberon4278 | jelly: Femoroacetabular impingement? :D |
| 17:28.09 | ctcx | Thanks everyone. You're right. I need to go into practice... |
| 17:28.11 | karlpinc | jordanm: I like that answer, but shouldn't this be in #debian-offtopic? (Looking forward to it there...) |
| 17:28.13 | ctcx | (It'll hurt........) |
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| 17:28.37 | Oberon4278 | yeah it's off topic, I'll take it there |
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| 17:29.10 | Oberon4278 | Ahh, Fully Automated Installation. |
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| 17:31.08 | uio | I can't install addons in Firefox - it keeps telling me, when I try to install an addon that downloading failed and that I should check my connection. |
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| 17:31.32 | uio | pkg -l | grep -i firefox-esr |
| 17:31.32 | uio | ii firefox-esr 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1 amd64 Mozilla Firefo |
| 17:31.44 | petn-randall | uio: Update to current firefox-esr. |
| 17:31.49 | petn-randall | ,v firefox-esr |
| 17:31.50 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 60.6.1esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 60.6.2esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.2esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 60.6.2esr-1; sid: 60.6.2esr-1 |
| 17:32.10 | uio | petn-randall, Sorry, but how does one do so? |
| 17:32.24 | petn-randall | uio: `apt update && apt dist-upgrade` |
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| 17:33.25 | jelly | sighs at stable not putting 60.6.2 into the security repo |
| 17:33.45 | karlpinc | uio: But you may also need to enable the "stretch-updates" repo in /etc/aps/sources.list |
| 17:33.50 | jelly | yes I know s-p-o is technically the right place |
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| 17:34.38 | jelly | but s-p-u* or s-u are not necessarily in everyone's sources.list |
| 17:34.48 | jelly | !stretch sources.list |
| 17:34.48 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main" "deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main". Be sure to run «apt update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <stretch/updates> <stretch-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list". |
| 17:34.48 | uio | # stretch-updates, previously known as 'volatile' |
| 17:34.56 | uio | so remove the # ? |
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| 17:35.52 | uio | No, I think not, it's the next two lines that count? |
| 17:35.59 | uio | deb http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main |
| 17:35.59 | uio | deb-src http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main |
| 17:35.59 | Sleaker | uio: # means the line is a comment. |
| 17:36.03 | uio | Okay. |
| 17:36.06 | jelly | see what dpkg said, uio |
| 17:36.25 | uio | jelly, kewl |
| 17:36.26 | jelly | <uio> deb http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main # is already okay |
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| 17:36.51 | Sleaker | I like to add contrib and non-free but... I have stuff I need from them |
| 17:38.51 | jelly | you are allowed to add them if you need them! |
| 17:40.11 | Sleaker | yup yup |
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| 17:42.50 | ctcx | Think that cp can be used to clone a whole system from a source partition to a *smaller* destination partition? Even if doing plain file-to-file copying? |
| 17:43.07 | Sleaker | ctcx: I have my doubts. |
| 17:43.56 | uio | It worked! Thanks. |
| 17:44.56 | Sleaker | ctcx: is there a reason you can't use something like gparted + dd? |
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| 17:45.27 | karlpinc | ctcx: If you try to cp /dev/null you're going to wait a while for it to complete. I always use tar. |
| 17:45.44 | karlpinc | ctcx: tar piped to tar |
| 17:45.58 | jhutchins_wk | What are the rules for who can request an SSL cert for a domain? Does it have to come from the party who owns the domain registration? |
| 17:46.25 | Sleaker | jhutchins_wk: probably better to just check letsencrypt.org or something |
| 17:46.32 | ctcx | Sleaker: yes: in this case it would be and old WinServer Vbox VM. |
| 17:47.00 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: It depends. The ACME protocol, used by letsencrypt.org/certbot, requires you "prove control". This by setting up a DNS record or showing you've configuration rights on a webserver in the domain. |
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| 17:47.29 | Sleaker | ctcx: I don't really see how the host OS is relevant. |
| 17:47.57 | tds | related question - I'd be interested to know how a cert with an IP address as a SAN is validated |
| 17:48.01 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: Other cert providers go so far as to require copies of incorporation papers and signatures by corporate officers and people in the whois db for the domain. |
| 17:48.07 | Sleaker | generally you have to do a clone on non-mounted drives so you're booted into a live env and just copy the partitions. |
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| 17:49.11 | n_1-c_k | Not particularly OT for debian but... if control of DNS + web site is considered to prove identity, why is a CA-signed cert necessary at all? |
| 17:49.35 | dax | to prevent MITM attacks |
| 17:49.40 | Sleaker | n_1-c_k: the cert is also used for encrypting the traffic. |
| 17:50.02 | Sleaker | you can't *just* rely on DNS. |
| 17:50.23 | n_1-c_k | Sleaker, dax, those are laudable goals but why is a CA necessary for those? |
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| 17:51.03 | dax | because a valid CA signature distinguishes the correct cert from a cert provided by a MITM attacker |
| 17:51.09 | Sleaker | n_1-c_k: goals? that's the reality of preventing MITMs. It's also why certs are only valid for a set period of time... |
| 17:51.09 | n_1-c_k | Sleaker: "you can't *just* rely on DNS" - who said you could? |
| 17:51.09 | jordanm | certificate trust exists to prevent mitm, which would work by presenting a fake cert |
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| 17:51.29 | Sleaker | I guess I don't understand the question. |
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| 17:51.32 | jordanm | with letsencrypt you can use DNS to verify identity for the purpose of CA signing |
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| 17:51.57 | tds | you might want to look at DANE - that's a system for trusting certs based on (signed) information in DNS and not relying on CAs |
| 17:52.23 | jhutchins_wk | Certificates are not tied to IP addresses, hence not to DNS records. |
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| 17:52.43 | tds | they can be, take a look at https://1.1.1.1 |
| 17:52.50 | n_1-c_k | tds: I'm aware of DANE, hence my question. I am puzzled why a CA is considered so desirable when it seems to me to be redundant. |
| 17:53.09 | tds | (or https://[2606:4700:4700::1111]/ if you're feeling modern :) |
| 17:53.35 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: I think it's because DANE adoption is slow. And lawyers like to have someone to sue. |
| 17:53.55 | tds | n_1-c_k: as far as I'm aware, mostly just historical reasons at this point, and LE act as a trusted middle party to validate dns and issue certs |
| 17:53.56 | n_1-c_k | jordanm: 'certificate trust' can only exist with a CA, is that your argument? |
| 17:54.00 | jordanm | the rfc for DANE appears to only be 4 years old. that's *really* new for that sort of thing |
| 17:54.26 | jordanm | just look at the speed of http/2 adoption... |
| 17:54.49 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: If you can add a DNS entry, the presumtion is that you own the domain. |
| 17:56.08 | n_1-c_k | tds : why does adding another party add trust? LE's tests are entirely automated, no? So what does their attestation add? |
| 17:56.41 | tds | n_1-c_k: a way to validate trust via dns and issue certificates for a legacy system |
| 17:56.41 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: Likewise, if you're able to configure a webserver in the domain to respond to requests for cert signature, the presumtion is that you're auhtorized to request a cert. This is not _always_ the case, but that's how the acme protocol works. |
| 17:57.30 | n_1-c_k | tds: I don't understand your :56 reply. |
| 17:57.48 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: It adds the ability for widespread distribution of root certs from LE that can be trusted by clients. |
| 17:58.00 | tds | n_1-c_k: the current system of CAs is much much older than dane |
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| 17:58.41 | n_1-c_k | karlpinc: I don't doubt it, but it doesn't answer my q. as to why any CA is *necessary* for such trust. |
| 17:59.20 | greycat | I believe the question is "what makes the CA trustworthy, if anyone can get a certificate from a robot" |
| 17:59.26 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: A CA is not necessary. Except in actual practice. |
| 17:59.48 | n_1-c_k | greycat: yes. Still awaiting that answer... |
| 18:00.05 | Oberon4278 | n_1-c_k: Because a CA has a physical location that you can deliver legal papers to if you want to sue them. |
| 18:00.37 | Oberon4278 | Not sure if that addresses your question or not. |
| 18:00.41 | jhutchins_wk | This might be interesting. We hold both the registration and the previous (expired) cert, but we no longer control the server. |
| 18:00.49 | n_1-c_k | Oberon4278: my q. was about trust, not about legal processes. What extra trust is provided by LE? |
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| 18:01.13 | Oberon4278 | By LE do you mean law enforcement? |
| 18:01.15 | Single21YearsOld | I will start my Live Show in 10 minutes. Fastest people will join my Private Live for FREE! Be among the first 5 people to write me "FREE INVITE" on my CAM room: http://snip.li/Y9uLM |
| 18:01.26 | n_1-c_k | Oberon4278: "Let's Encrypt" |
| 18:01.28 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: There is no extra trust for LE. Just the same trust you'd get from any other CA. |
| 18:01.29 | greycat | he means Let's Encrypt, which was clear to everyone in the discussion |
| 18:01.30 | Oberon4278 | ahh ok |
| 18:01.42 | Oberon4278 | I apologize, I haven't been following the entire discussion. |
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| 18:02.40 | n_1-c_k | karlpinc: yes, that's why I ask whether, if LE's trust is considered sufficient, why is necessary at all? They do nothing to verify identity beyond scripted tests. |
| 18:02.43 | karlpinc | jhutchins_wk: You can either have the people who control the server get a cert from LE. Or you can setup a DNS record and that will allow certbot to get a cert from LE. Or you can use another CA. |
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| 18:05.22 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: "sufficient" is relative. LE certs prevent mtm attacks, as do the other CAs. If you want to sue the domain owner who has a LE cert, well, you'd have to show that they did not somehow have their server taken over. But that'd be the case anyway with another CA. I've not thought through the possible cases. |
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| 18:06.34 | n_1-c_k | karlpinc: how does an LE cert prevent an MITM better than a self-signed DANE cert? |
| 18:06.51 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: It does not. As far as I can tell. |
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| 18:07.22 | tds | but random people's browsers will actually trust a cert signed by LE, and they won't trust your self-signed cert with dane, most likely |
| 18:07.43 | n_1-c_k | karlpinc: ok, thx, that's my understanding too. I remaind puzzled why an LE cert is considered desirable. |
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| 18:07.49 | Oberon4278 | Sorry if I missed this, but does LE issue certs that are not signed by a CA? |
| 18:08.06 | jhutchins_wk | Oberon4278: No, they are signed. |
| 18:08.13 | greycat | n_1-c_k: it's required if you want to offer https service. |
| 18:08.14 | karlpinc | n_1-c_k: And a DANE cert actually provides privacy, whereas CAs can decrypt your traffic. (At least that's what I once figured out. I forget the details.) |
| 18:08.28 | Oberon4278 | So if they're signed by a CA, that should prevent MITM attacks, innit? |
| 18:08.42 | tds | kreyren: CAs never see your private key, they can't decrypt traffic |
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| 18:08.52 | tds | (but they could sign another cert for your hostname and mitm connections) |
| 18:08.53 | karlpinc | tds: Ah, right. |
| 18:09.09 | n_1-c_k | tds: that's certainly an argument where browsers are concerned. However, my question was about the degree of trust added by LE, which I'm becoming more convinced, from this discussion, is zero. |
| 18:09.17 | Oberon4278 | karlpinc: I may be mistaken but I don't believe that's correct. SSL/TLS provides end to end encryption that doesn't rely on your certificate, which (iirc) only proves identity. |
| 18:09.21 | karlpinc | Anyway, IIRC, the SSL guarentee is against mtm and replay attacks. |
| 18:09.52 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: Yes, but it also depends on how you get your cert. Many many certs are issued with private key attached by the CA. |
| 18:09.57 | jhutchins_wk | You can generate your own self-signed certificate that can be used for encryption, but browsers will alert the user that there is no proof of the site's identity. |
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| 18:10.14 | x5a17ed | hello, I'm trying to preseed the debian netinst iso and I would like to configure the installed system to use the german keyboard layout. That is my preseed.cfg: https://paste.sh/AoR-k5C2#AdhQ6_t5sfA91bsM0uhjVBsX the installed system still uses the us layout though. What am I doing wrong? |
| 18:10.26 | karlpinc | One nice thing about LE is that the key is generated client-side and not given by the CA. |
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| 18:10.50 | jhutchins_wk | karlpinc: I believe that's the case in all CRs, the client provides the public key. |
| 18:10.51 | tds | karlpinc: then you need to find a new CA, or find a more competently designed way of getting a cert signed by them without them seeing the key |
| 18:11.01 | karlpinc | tds: Well yah. |
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| 18:11.11 | Oberon4278 | n_1-c_k: If LE's certs are signed by a CA, then they add just as much trust as you'd get from any other CA, or organization which issues certs whose origin can be traced back to a CA |
| 18:11.27 | n_1-c_k | karlpinc: your :08 is a good point. LE (and other CAs) actually *detract* from security and privacy. |
| 18:11.33 | Oberon4278 | Yeah, I don't know why anyone would issue a cert with a private key already attached. That defeats the entire purpose. |
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| 18:12.04 | Oberon4278 | Sorry, detract? I don't think that's right. |
| 18:12.05 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: Because IT people are lazy, and getting everything is simpler than making your own key and asking for a signature. |
| 18:12.11 | tds | Oberon4278: some CAs have web uis to make it easy for customers, put in a hostname, download a file with a generated private key and a signed cert |
| 18:12.27 | Oberon4278 | karlpinc: But getting a private key from another party defeats the entire purpose of having a PK |
| 18:12.38 | tds | though hopefully maybe if that's written competently it'll at least be generated client side |
| 18:12.43 | Oberon4278 | Jesus Fucking Christ, what a bunch of idiots. |
| 18:12.48 | tds | indeed |
| 18:13.45 | tds | https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/01/trustico_digicert_symantec_spat/ was a fun one |
| 18:13.46 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: Detract because the CA can (potentially) issue another cert for the domain and do a mtm. I believe that some universities do this as part of proxying, although I can't prove it. |
| 18:14.10 | Oberon4278 | Yes, they could, but without a CA *anyone* could do a MITM. |
| 18:14.19 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: Yes. |
| 18:14.30 | Oberon4278 | And the whole point of a CA is that they are a "trusted" organization -- i.e., they have a physical location and you can sue them if you want. |
| 18:14.33 | Oberon4278 | (Among other things.) |
| 18:14.49 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: Except that DANE allows self-signed certs that (in theory) are mtm-proof. |
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| 18:15.02 | petn-randall | DNS is not easily forged with DNSSEC, so there is value over blindly trusting a certificate. |
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| 18:15.10 | karlpinc | Oberon4278: I say in theory because the infrastructre is not deployed. |
| 18:15.31 | Oberon4278 | I am skeptical, but okay. |
| 18:16.04 | rander2 | hellp |
| 18:16.58 | petn-randall | !ask |
| 18:16.58 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
| 18:17.06 | petn-randall | rander2: ^ |
| 18:17.30 | twobitsprite | I tried to run reportbug once, and I didn't have a mail server set up. Now I get mail every day about a mail that failed to send. I haven't done anything to configure email, this is just a VM I run on my laptop. There is no /var/spool/mqueue, /var/spool/$USER is 0 bytes, /var/spool/exim/{input,msglog} are empty... how do I stop my system from trying to send this reportbug mail? |
| 18:18.22 | Oberon4278 | Well, if DANE actually works and people used it, then yes a CA would be a less secure option. |
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| 18:19.05 | Oberon4278 | But at the moment, using a cert signed by a CA is (security breaches notwithstanding) more secure than not. |
| 18:20.00 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: Who is it sending to? Anything cron runs will be delivered locally unless you change something. |
| 18:20.48 | twobitsprite | karlpinc: It's trying to send it to whatever address reportbug(1) tries to send to... I deleted the bounce messages so I don't know the exact address, but it's something @debian.org or whatever |
| 18:21.27 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: The easy answer is to wait and eventually it will fail delivery for good. Harder would be to remove the mail from the queue. (I don't know how to do this with exim.) Wrong-ish would be to shut down/disable exim. |
| 18:21.51 | twobitsprite | karlpinc: I've been getting bounce messages for a few weeks now, I thought it would give up |
| 18:22.10 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: I'd have thought it'd give up too. But I don't run exim. |
| 18:22.13 | twobitsprite | karlpinc: "remove the mail from the queue." This is what I'm asking how to do |
| 18:22.45 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: Try "man mailq" and see if it has a SEE ALSO for other queue manipulation tools. |
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| 18:22.57 | twobitsprite | karlpinc: This is a pretty default install... I just run AwesomeWM and a bunch of Terminator instances for development, so it's a pretty basic Buster install |
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| 18:25.04 | Oberon4278 | https://www.inmotionhosting.com/support/email/exim/manage-the-exim-mail-queue-via-ssh |
| 18:25.17 | Oberon4278 | twobitsprite: see that article for fucking about with your exim mail queue |
| 18:25.18 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: man -k exim ?? |
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| 18:27.08 | twobitsprite | karlpinc: I know how to read man pages, I wouldn't be asking if it was something obvious from a man page :P |
| 18:27.36 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: Well, I generally search the man page apropos for a useful tool. Just saying. |
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| 18:30.36 | dfcnvt | Know of any distro that follows: Lightweight Debian AMD64, specifically design for laptop. (not necessarily lightweight but should be enough for puny laptop) |
| 18:30.45 | *** join/#debian r1ch (~r1ch@2604:2000:e384:6f00:6d22:66b1:2f27:7316) |
| 18:31.31 | dfcnvt | My laptop is Acer Aspire 3 - A315-21-95KF |
| 18:31.35 | jmcnaught | dfcnvt: we just deal with Debian here, not derivatives. Debian's a good choice though. |
| 18:31.45 | twobitsprite | Oberon4278: I've read that, "sudo exim -bp" shows nothing |
| 18:32.41 | dfcnvt | jmcnaught: Knows of any lightweight or debian's version that is specifically designed for laptop? |
| 18:33.21 | twobitsprite | dfcnvt: check out Lubuntu |
| 18:33.28 | jmcnaught | dfcnvt: Debian is universal, it fits almost everywhere. Just install Debian 9 (stretch, the current stable release) and then pick a desktop environment during the install that you like |
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| 18:34.31 | twobitsprite | dfcnvt: but yeah, as jmcnaught said, Debian is pretty lightweight by default, especially if you pick a lightweight DE, like XFCE or LXDE, etc |
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| 18:36.02 | dfcnvt | Alright, I'm going with this one: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/ |
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| 18:36.25 | twobitsprite | dfcnvt: +1 |
| 18:36.32 | dfcnvt | Is this the latest? "debian-9.9.0-amd64-xfce-CD-1.iso" |
| 18:36.37 | jmcnaught | !firmware images |
| 18:36.37 | dpkg | Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/ and ask me about <install guide>. |
| 18:36.52 | jmcnaught | dfcnvt: ^^ link there to iso installer image that has firmwares on it for wifi |
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| 18:38.52 | JoshShell | /etc/security/limits.d only works for console, not X11. I even restart lightdm. I checked the /etc/pam.d files |
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| 18:47.11 | jelly | JoshShell: you did not confirm whether pam_limits.so had a present, uncommented line in /etc/pam.d/lightdm or not |
| 18:47.18 | JoshShell | It does |
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| 18:47.48 | jelly | good. Well, bad because there's no a simple fix then :-) |
| 18:50.54 | jhutchins_wk | twobitsprite: It's possible to run bugreport without generating mail, just a file to be copied to mail. |
| 18:51.29 | greycat | s/bugreport/reportbug/ |
| 18:51.53 | jhutchins_wk | Dislexic. |
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| 18:52.48 | annadane | dfcnvt, it depends on how lightweight you need, openbox is basically one of the most minimal things you can install |
| 18:53.11 | annadane | (which i have never had the patience to use for any period of time, but anyway) |
| 18:53.17 | tmroland | i mistakenly deleted /usr/share/zoneinfo/Europe/London and /etc/localtime , how can i fix |
| 18:53.32 | JoshShell | Isn't there a reinstall option? |
| 18:53.44 | greycat | reinstall the tzdata package |
| 18:53.55 | dvs | apt install --reinstall ? |
| 18:54.04 | greycat | sure |
| 18:54.14 | dvs | close enough |
| 18:54.18 | dvs | ;-) |
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| 18:55.08 | tmroland | done, ty mates |
| 18:55.44 | annadane | dfcnvt, but, yes, for a laptop you likely want the firmware image |
| 18:56.59 | tmroland | quick poll, what de do u guys use |
| 18:57.01 | tmroland | or wm |
| 18:57.12 | dvs | a computer/ |
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| 18:57.37 | annadane | xfce, but that isn't really a support question for #debian |
| 18:57.42 | annadane | i'd mosey on over to #debian-offtopic |
| 18:58.16 | greycat | we discourage polling a channel with 1000+ users |
| 18:58.36 | annadane | which text e- |
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| 19:18.48 | s8ori | how do i install intel wifi firmware on a new install that cant get online cause I need the firmware? :) |
| 19:18.52 | s8ori | i have it on a usbdrive ... |
| 19:19.34 | Tom-_ | !firmware |
| 19:19.35 | dpkg | Firmware is software to operate electronic devices, usually contained in EPROM or flash memory. Some Linux kernel drivers require firmware to be provided from userspace, notably for <WiFi> devices. Most firmware files are not part of a Debian release as they do not conform to the <DFSG>; some are available via <contrib> and <non-free> packages, ask me about <search>. See also <installer firmware>. http://wiki.debian.org/Firmware |
| 19:19.42 | Tom-_ | !installer firmware |
| 19:19.43 | dpkg | Debian-Installer is able to load additional <firmware>, by including it within installation media or supplying on removable media (e.g. USB stick, floppy). See http://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/amd64/ch06s04 . To include firmware within Debian <netboot> images, see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/NetbootFirmware . See also <firmware images>. |
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| 19:21.45 | s8ori | so i have to load the firmware -during- installation not after ? |
| 19:22.45 | petn-randall | s8ori: Or just download the image with firmware baked into it. |
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| 19:22.47 | petn-randall | !firmware images |
| 19:22.48 | dpkg | Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/ and ask me about <install guide>. |
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| 19:23.59 | s8ori | im just trying to find out what my options are. so far it seems: load the firmware at install -or- install by way of .dpkg file. |
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| 19:35.14 | petn-randall | s8ori: You can either use the firmware installer, or pass the tarball with firmware to the "free" installer, or install it after your installed the base system. In the last case that piece of hardware obviously won't work during installation. |
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| 19:42.11 | s8ori | what is the firmware installer and the free installer? |
| 19:42.37 | greycat | the unofficial installer with non-free firmware has non-free firmware packages included in it |
| 19:42.48 | greycat | most laptop users will want that |
| 19:42.53 | s8ori | kk. whats that called? |
| 19:42.57 | greycat | !firmware images |
| 19:42.58 | dpkg | Unofficial <netinst> and DVD installer images containing non-free Debian firmware packages are available for installing Debian 9 "Stretch". See http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/ and ask me about <install guide>. |
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| 20:03.23 | jhutchins_wk | s8ori: dpkg -i </path/to/firmware package> |
| 20:03.43 | s8ori | gotcha i thought there was a diff program for isntalling it. gotcha. |
| 20:03.43 | s8ori | thx |
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| 20:03.51 | jhutchins_wk | s8ori: I believe the apt tools will also install a package given it's path, but I'd check the manpage. |
| 20:04.00 | s8ori | kk |
| 20:04.03 | s8ori | will do. |
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| 20:04.34 | jhutchins_wk | s8ori: Unlike some other distros, the package tools all store their data consistently so you can use them interchangably. |
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| 20:05.22 | greycat | !apt install |
| 20:05.22 | dpkg | You can specify a pathname to a manually downloaded .deb file in apt install, but it must begin with / or ./ or ../ or else apt thinks it's a package name. E.g. "apt install ./foo-1.2.deb". This supersedes <gdebi>. |
| 20:05.37 | petn-randall | s8ori: Do you already have a working installation? |
| 20:05.43 | s8ori | yeah |
| 20:06.08 | s8ori | and the firmware files on a usbdrive. |
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| 20:06.16 | petn-randall | Eh, easiest is to reinstall with the firmware installer, unless you have a finely crafted setup. |
| 20:06.36 | petn-randall | s8ori: You can't plug in the Ethernet for the installation? |
| 20:06.38 | s8ori | no |
| 20:06.48 | petn-randall | oh, bummer. |
| 20:07.15 | jhutchins_wk | If he has a core install and the firmware on a USB, he can just install the firmware. No need to reinstall Debian just to get it. |
| 20:07.19 | s8ori | i can use the deb/dpkg. i was just trying to see if there was another way of loading the firmware from the commandline without being on the net, or isntalling via the os installer. |
| 20:07.47 | petn-randall | Then you can simply download the relevant firmware package from packages.debian.org, though you'll have to do the verification yourself. Usually apt does the signature checking. |
| 20:07.56 | greycat | if you install without a network, you can install the firmware from sneakernet, but then you will have to edit your sources.list by hand (or copy it from somewhere over the network) |
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| 20:08.24 | s8ori | either way ill need a .deb file yeah? |
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| 20:08.37 | s8ori | i got the firmware .tgz files from intels site .. so thats waht i was thinking i needed |
| 20:08.45 | greycat | NOOOOOOOO |
| 20:08.48 | s8ori | thats what i was originally trying. |
| 20:08.53 | s8ori | hehehe |
| 20:09.40 | jhutchins_wk | s8ori: Best to stay entirely within the debian-packaged installs until you get reasonably familiar with Linux. |
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| 20:10.05 | jhutchins_wk | s8ori: You can download individual packages through the web pages. |
| 20:10.06 | s8ori | understood. |
| 20:10.14 | s8ori | ill go that route. thx much :D |
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| 20:14.04 | neilthereildeil | hey guys |
| 20:14.19 | neilthereildeil | im trying to run to stuff as a nonroot user at boot time |
| 20:14.51 | EmleyMoor | neilthereildeil: What of it? |
| 20:14.54 | neilthereildeil | should i be putting a script in /etc/init.d/? |
| 20:15.06 | greycat | only if you hate yourself |
| 20:15.21 | neilthereildeil | i saw this website that said to do it: https://debian-administration.org/article/28/Making_scripts_run_at_boot_time_with_Debian |
| 20:15.33 | neilthereildeil | greycat: whats a better way to do this? |
| 20:15.40 | greycat | if it doesn't mention systemd, it's ANCIENT and should be ignored |
| 20:15.43 | EmleyMoor | There's better ways - there's a way to run jobs through cron at boot I think |
| 20:15.59 | neilthereildeil | also, i want the commands to be run as nonroot |
| 20:16.07 | jhutchins_wk | !rc.local |
| 20:16.07 | dpkg | /etc/rc.local may be used to run simple commands at boot time. It exists by default in jessie or older; in stretch you need to create it. Don't forget the <shebang> and be sure to chmod 755 it. rc.local is considered a hack, a stopgap, or a temporary band-aid; see <systemd> |
| 20:16.09 | greycat | and yes, a user crontab with @reboot would also work, probably |
| 20:16.10 | neilthereildeil | how would you all recommend it do this? |
| 20:16.10 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: have a look at https://debian-administration.org/about/Debian%20Administration |
| 20:16.27 | BCMM | basically that site is explicitly not current |
| 20:16.56 | neilthereildeil | ahh. it came up high on google though |
| 20:17.04 | jhutchins_wk | I believe that debian's cron allows the "atboot" specification, but I'm not sure exactly how to invoke it. |
| 20:17.18 | dax | @reboot commandhere |
| 20:17.20 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: since i'm using a systemd distro, i'd probably begrudgingly do this the systemd way |
| 20:17.45 | jhutchins_wk | It's the path forward. |
| 20:17.51 | dax | (man 5 crontab has more info) |
| 20:18.05 | neilthereildeil | ok, so u guys a re recommending using crond to do this... |
| 20:18.05 | jhutchins_wk | dax: thanks. |
| 20:18.38 | jhutchins_wk | neilthereildeil: Kindof depends on what the this you're doing actually is. |
| 20:18.49 | neilthereildeil | ok, so this is a server |
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| 20:19.08 | neilthereildeil | at boot, i need it to mount an LVM volume using losetup -f |
| 20:19.17 | neilthereildeil | and i need it to run some web services |
| 20:19.21 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: have a look at https://askubuntu.com/a/919059 |
| 20:19.31 | greycat | surely you're not saying you have to MOUNT something as a non-root user |
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| 20:19.53 | neilthereildeil | no, mount as root |
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| 20:19.58 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: note the User= line in the extended example - you'll want that for the nonroot thing |
| 20:20.00 | neilthereildeil | well, actually im not mounting anything |
| 20:20.15 | greycat | 16:19 neilthereildeil> at boot, i need it to mount an LVM volume |
| 20:20.58 | neilthereildeil | oops. not mount as in filesystems |
| 20:21.15 | neilthereildeil | BCMM: is that askubuintu link the cron way or the systemd way? |
| 20:22.44 | greycat | if the thing you're trying to do is a REAL service on a REAL web server, I would do it properly, with a systemd unit file |
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| 20:23.05 | greycat | if it's a toy that you're using on a workstation for yourself, then the crontab thing may be more appropriate |
| 20:23.52 | neilthereildeil | no this is in production |
| 20:23.57 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: it's the systemd way |
| 20:24.20 | BCMM | neilthereildeil: it shows you how to make a systemd unit that runs a single command, and how to make that happen on boot |
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| 20:24.32 | neilthereildeil | ok |
| 20:24.50 | greycat | there's also https://wiki.debian.org/systemd/Services |
| 20:25.03 | BCMM | oh hang on, i think the advice to put it in /lib/systemd/system is not appropriate |
| 20:25.14 | BCMM | that should probably be for stuff provided by packages |
| 20:25.27 | dax | they want it to run as non-root, also |
| 20:25.38 | dax | i assume that's an extra line or two |
| 20:25.45 | BCMM | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:26.00 | BCMM | dax: User=, maybe also Group= |
| 20:26.09 | BCMM | that's the main reason i linked the askubuntu reply |
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| 20:27.49 | dax | oh, i completely missed the "note the User= line" bit |
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| 20:28.02 | dax | i rly need to stop skimming logs :( |
| 20:28.36 | neilthereildeil | ok |
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| 20:28.42 | neilthereildeil | so ur sayig dont follow askubuntu |
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| 20:28.54 | neilthereildeil | rather, follow wiki.debian.org |
| 20:29.20 | JoshShell | Hello. I can't join #zsh. My question about zsh is: Is $f the same as "$f" |
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| 20:30.56 | annadane | JoshShell, there's also ##linux |
| 20:31.02 | JoshShell | I can't join ##linux either |
| 20:31.06 | annadane | welp. |
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| 20:31.11 | jhutchins_wk | Strange to be running a service as non-root though, most are at least launched as root even if they drop privileges. |
| 20:31.24 | greycat | no, it's not strange |
| 20:31.40 | fastman_ | Anyone here use Netrunner? Had a few questions |
| 20:31.42 | JoshShell | All are launched as root. |
| 20:32.32 | fastman_ | Netrunner is based on Debian, right? Not kubuntu? |
| 20:32.51 | petn-randall | !netrunner |
| 20:32.51 | dpkg | Netrunner is an operating system <based on Debian> Testing. It is not supported in #debian. http://www.netrunner.com/ |
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| 20:33.17 | petn-randall | fastman_: Seems so, though their website will likely tell you. |
| 20:34.06 | fastman_ | petn-randall: Does this mean that the debian repos all work for netrunner? |
| 20:34.35 | petn-randall | fastman_: No idea, I'm not an expert on netrunner. |
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| 20:35.14 | greycat | !factinfo netrunner |
| 20:35.14 | dpkg | netrunner -- created by abrotman <~abrotman@pdpc/supporter/active/abrotman> at Fri Dec 23 01:47:54 2011 (2692 days); it has been requested 13 times, last by petn-randall, 2m 23s ago. |
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| 20:35.25 | petn-randall | fastman_: Unless netrunner explicitely promotes it, I'd assume it could break your system. |
| 20:35.28 | greycat | seems like one person might have known something about it in 2011 |
| 20:36.07 | jhutchins_wk | Haven't seen abrotman in a while here. |
| 20:36.18 | greycat | he's literally in here right now |
| 20:36.21 | fastman_ | petn-randall: Well I'd like to install Pale Moon Browser, and the right Nvidia driver. Unfortunately neither of them show up in the software center. |
| 20:36.47 | greycat | fastman_: sounds like you need support. Which #debian cannot give you. |
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| 20:36.58 | jhutchins_wk | greycat: As in seen posts from him, but it could just be my own timing. |
| 20:37.29 | fastman_ | greycat: Thanks, I didn't even know I actually needed support. That's how new I am to linux. I can't even tell if I'm just doing it wrong at this point. |
| 20:37.32 | Lady_Aleena | Hello. Does anyone know of a terminal emulator available through the package manager that has horizontal scrolling (meaning a scroll bar at the bottom of the window)? |
| 20:38.02 | jhutchins_wk | Lady_Aleena: The ones I know either wrap lines or cut them off. |
| 20:38.21 | Lady_Aleena | jhutchins_wk, that is unacceptable for me. |
| 20:38.23 | digdilem | fastman_, if you're new, and this doesn't work out with netrunner due to limited support, have a think about a more widely used distro that does have support. |
| 20:38.32 | greycat | Lady_Aleena: what did you want to do with it? doesn't sound like a normal terminal. |
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| 20:39.19 | fastman_ | digdilem: So you would say that Netrunner is an obscure distro with too little usersbase? |
| 20:39.20 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, I want to be able to scroll horizontally, and not have my output wrap unless I TELL IT TO WRAP. |
| 20:39.38 | greycat | Lady_Aleena: but you want to *use* it like a terminal? Running commands and so on? |
| 20:39.59 | digdilem | fastman_, i've not heard of it before, but possibly. if you can't find the answers that you want and have to try a completely different distro's support channel, that might be an indicator |
| 20:40.26 | greycat | wonders how that would even work. Would you just not be able to see the last 2/3 of your command if you type a long command? Or would you have to type left-handed while you work the mouse with the right hand constantly? |
| 20:40.26 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, yes. |
| 20:41.01 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, if a command goes beyond the length of my monitor, then there is a problem. |
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| 20:41.30 | digdilem | you have a two meter wide monitor, or a really high res? (I use long commands sometimes...) |
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| 20:41.37 | greycat | your work habits are incredibly different from mine it seems |
| 20:42.06 | OerHeks | No. Terminals are not designed to scroll horizontally. Use less -S to allow scrolling left and right as well as up and down. |
| 20:42.06 | greycat | all my terminals are 80 columns wide. always. ALWAYS. ALL. OF. THEM. some may be taller than 24 lines, but width is sacred. |
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| 20:42.34 | fastman_ | digdilem: Well I've been through a lot of distros, and was about to give up. They all seemed really clunky and well, just not ready for prime time. Then I found netrunner. Its everything I was always looking for. But, I can't tell if its actually just Debian that I was looking for. I'd like to have debian, but with Neon or Plasma or whatever the name is. |
| 20:42.39 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, my terminals are always full screen. |
| 20:43.44 | Lady_Aleena | The only program I can remember running in less than full screen is gcalculator. |
| 20:43.52 | Lady_Aleena | Everything else is full screen. |
| 20:44.00 | greycat | I am the exact opposite |
| 20:44.06 | rant | Lady_Aleena: xterm -aw |
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| 20:44.25 | digdilem | fastman_, it's no uncommon to take a while to find a distro that is a good fit for you. But looking at the distrowatch stats will show you what's popular right now and over time, and if you're learning, being a part of a bigger community definitely helps |
| 20:44.45 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, how do you get anything done in, say, LibreOffice Calc? |
| 20:45.04 | digdilem | fastman_, or persevere with netrunner, but you need netrunner support not debian :) |
| 20:45.12 | OerHeks | digdilem, distrowatch is not even close to real stats, just a nice database about package versions |
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| 20:45.21 | somiaj | Lady_Aleena: libreoffice calc runs in a terminal (I don't recall it being able to) |
| 20:45.36 | greycat | Lady_Aleena: I use spreadsheets only when ABSOLUTELY required, and even then I just use whatever dimensions libreoffice opens to |
| 20:45.38 | somiaj | I would like ot know if such a feature exists, but my understanding was it didn't. |
| 20:45.44 | rant | Lady_Aleena: some terminal emulators respect setterm -linewrap off mate-terminal seems to |
| 20:45.47 | digdilem | OerHeks, what am I thinking of then? |
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| 20:46.06 | rant | Lady_Aleena: it is reported that gnome-terminal does as well but I haven't tried it |
| 20:46.18 | greycat | I most certainly would not use it to "get anything done". Only to fulfill the needs of some horrible Windows person. |
| 20:46.53 | rant | Lady_Aleena: I have however tested setterm -linewrap off in mate-term with output of dmesg|less and got no wrapping and horizontal scroll |
| 20:46.55 | fastman_ | digdilem: Does Debian typically come with Neon? (or plasma) |
| 20:47.17 | somiaj | Lady_Aleena: What is it that you are doing in a termainl where full screen (lots of columns) is too short? |
| 20:47.38 | somiaj | fastman_: debian provides lots of desktops. Debian does provide kde plasma, but this is one of many you can choose from. |
| 20:47.55 | digdilem | fastman_, dunno. it has many packages, you can search them here; https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages |
| 20:49.07 | Lady_Aleena | somiaj, I output some scripts where I want to be SURE that my output looks the way I want it to, so I need to see where things are tabbed and where they are not. If the text wraps, then I can not see my tabination clearly. |
| 20:49.53 | somiaj | If you are making scripts output to a terminal, I would suggest sticking to the 80 column max width to make sure your output looks good. |
| 20:49.56 | greycat | Lady_Aleena: sounds more like you only need the non-wrapping when looking at specific files. You can use less for that. |
| 20:50.11 | rant | dpkg, nowrap term is <reply> to disable text wrapping in a terminal or terminal emulator use "setterm -linewrap off" or xterm has a option -aw. |
| 20:50.12 | dpkg | okay, rant |
| 20:50.26 | somiaj | but yea, there are ways to get around that. You could output the script into a .text file and then open it in an editor that dosen't do line wrapping too |
| 20:50.26 | greycat | I think you mean xterm +aw not -aw |
| 20:50.29 | Lady_Aleena | For me, the only time wrapping in a terminal is welcome is when reading man files. |
| 20:50.45 | greycat | man pages don't use terminal wrapping |
| 20:50.49 | rant | greycat: I think +aw enables wrapping.. but I did not verify it |
| 20:51.07 | greycat | rant: I tested it when you suggested -aw. -aw is the normal behavior (autowrap). +aw truncates. |
| 20:51.10 | petn-randall | TBH, I don't even know what netrunner's goal is. It supplies installers with KDE based on testing. And "core images" based on Debian stable. I don't see what they're shipping that Debian doesn't. |
| 20:51.22 | fastman_ | Wow Debian's site is... their site is something to see. |
| 20:51.39 | rant | dpkg nowrap term =~ s/-a/+a/ |
| 20:51.40 | dpkg | rant: OK |
| 20:52.07 | Lady_Aleena | I already have "setterm --linewrap off" in my .bashrc, however, when I run scripts in anything other than Jessie's Terminator, I don't get the horizontal scroll bar. |
| 20:52.55 | rant | actually getting a scrollbar is dependant on the terminal emulator's widgets and config.. i get no scrollbars in mate-term cause thats just how I have it configured |
| 20:53.12 | rant | but that setterm command def disabled wrapping and enabled horizontal scrolling |
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| 20:53.46 | rant | cause without it dmesg output wraps |
| 20:53.50 | rant | with it, it doesnt |
| 20:54.44 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, if the text wraps when I run any perl script I wrote, then it is annoying. |
| 20:55.31 | greycat | so, when you view the output files, use the option to do non-wrapping-manual-horizontal-scrolling-required in your pager |
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| 20:56.26 | Lady_Aleena | setterm --linewrap off in .bashrc |
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| 20:56.36 | greycat | wonders what this output file is USED FOR if it has to be so perfectly aligned but is also too wide to fit in a full-screen-width terminal on your monitor |
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| 20:59.38 | Lady_Aleena | greycat, it is outputting complete paragraphs, some thousands of characters long. |
| 21:00.05 | fastman_ | Since my Distro is Debian based, will all debian packages work on it? |
| 21:00.16 | greycat | I cannot even fathom what world you live in. |
| 21:00.23 | greycat | fastman_: absolutely not. |
| 21:00.26 | somiaj | fastman_: that is a good way to break your system. |
| 21:00.33 | jhutchins_wk | fastman_: That or they'll break it so badly you have to reinstall. |
| 21:00.33 | greycat | mixing packages from different operating systems is ABSOLUTELY bad |
| 21:01.09 | jhutchins_wk | fastman_: They can be just far enough off that they'll manage to install, then completely mess things up. |
| 21:01.11 | somiaj | fastman_: debian packages are compiled for a very specific version of debian (buster packages won't install in stretch for instance). Adding different distros with different build targets only complicates this problem. |
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| 21:02.38 | fastman_ | But they can be trusted IF they're in the synaptic package manager... right? On any given distro. |
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| 21:02.46 | Krennic | hmm |
| 21:03.33 | somiaj | If you add a bad source to your souces.list, then what you see in synaptic cannot be trusted |
| 21:03.59 | somiaj | Make sure your sources.list matches the distro you are running, and if you aren't running debian, you need to ask netrunner what to do. |
| 21:04.03 | fastman_ | I'm just talking about using the search function in the package manager. |
| 21:04.41 | fastman_ | See I don't even know what is safe to install. Everyone tells you something different. |
| 21:04.42 | somiaj | The search function only searches packages that are avilable in your sources.list, if you put bad sources there you can break things. |
| 21:05.04 | somiaj | We keep telling you, you should ask netrunner what is safe to install or what sources.list they recommend. |
| 21:05.05 | fastman_ | I don't know how to put in bad sources. |
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| 21:05.54 | fastman_ | You're not understanding that I'm essentially asking about the relationship between netrunner, and debian. This would apply to many distros, that are all based on debian. |
| 21:06.26 | karlpinc | fastman_: We don't know netrunner, so can't tell you about the relationship. Netrunner knows. They based themselves off Debian. |
| 21:06.28 | greycat | You cannot safely mix packages from Distro A and Distro B. |
| 21:06.35 | somiaj | based on debian distros take debian packages and do what they want with them, so you have to ask them what their relationship is. |
| 21:06.41 | fastman_ | I'm so new to linux that I'm just trying to get some kind of a broad, general idea of what is going on. |
| 21:06.46 | digdilem | fastman_, you don't realise that just because it's based on debian, it is not debian. many many things are different. |
| 21:06.53 | somiaj | But standard advise is do not mix, make sure to yonly install packages specifically built for your distro. |
| 21:07.44 | fastman_ | digdilem: That's why I'm here, yes. |
| 21:08.12 | karlpinc | fastman_: The "magic" in Linux, if there is one, is that you can get all your packages from your distro. Your distro makes sure things work. If you install random software from random places, as with the-other-os-which-shall-not-be-named, then your system will eventually turn to muck. |
| 21:08.18 | fastman_ | digdilem: To learn things like that about Debian |
| 21:10.12 | fastman_ | karlpinc: So for example, I want to install a program that isn't in the software center. Well that's it then, time to switch Distros. Seems a bit... extreme. |
| 21:10.58 | somiaj | !don't break debian |
| 21:10.58 | dpkg | extra, extra, read all about it, dont break debian is https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian |
| 21:11.04 | humpled | generally though, all the packages from a particular distribution of debian can be used together, and most software has a package in each distribution |
| 21:11.10 | greycat | fastman_: ask the netrunner people how to deal with that. |
| 21:11.28 | somiaj | that explains how to install things in debian. There are ways to install software outside of the distro, but you have to know how the distro works first. And in this case, you should be asking netrunning how to best install software X in their system. |
| 21:11.29 | fastman_ | This would have the effect of being extremely limiting. You'd be stuck with whatever distro happened to have the software you wanted. |
| 21:11.50 | karlpinc | fastman_: You can install non-distro software, but then you're on your own. We will help if you use debian as a "platform". But in the end unless you're really a computer expert and want to spend all your time doing systems integration it's best to stick with what comes with the distro. |
| 21:11.57 | somiaj | fastman_: that is part of what debian does well, it provides the user 20,000+ software packages that are all integrated to work together, tested, and fixed, and tested again. |
| 21:12.23 | digdilem | fastman_, that's one of the benefits of using a popular distro... and you can compile much software yourself if you want to work hard |
| 21:12.35 | digdilem | but my patience is now eroded and it's time for bed |
| 21:12.45 | karlpinc | and keep up with security updates and recompile etc. |
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| 21:56.41 | annadane | concerning python3-pip: if i simply pip install foo, where in the FSH do the packages get stored? |
| 21:57.07 | annadane | (as unprivileged user) |
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| 21:59.01 | rant | annadane: ~/.local/bin or such.. depending on what foo is |
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| 22:01.12 | rant | annadane: afaik you should not be able to do that though you should have to specify --user |
| 22:01.21 | rant | or of course run it as root |
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| 22:09.49 | micheal65536 | so a package installation got interrupted now when i try to reinstall the package dpkg hangs indefinitely at "unpacking" |
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| 22:10.10 | micheal65536 | i tried force-removing the package, then manually deleting all the files from the filesystem |
| 22:10.29 | micheal65536 | also it's creating .dpkg-new files where there aren't original files with the same name |
| 22:10.32 | micheal65536 | then it hangs |
| 22:10.50 | micheal65536 | so like, it unpacks the package but creates a bunch of unecessary dpkg-new files, then hangs indefinitely doing nothing |
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| 22:11.11 | micheal65536 | nvm scratch that it finished after like half an hour |
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| 22:11.45 | rant | thanks for sharing? |
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| 22:19.09 | squirrel | in apt-get's message `Depends: python3:any (>= 3.3.2-2~)`, what does `>= 3.3.2-2~` mean exactly? |
| 22:19.28 | Unit193 | Any version equal to, or greater than, 3.3.2-2~ |
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| 22:20.14 | squirrel | what do - and ~ mean? |
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| 22:20.32 | jmcnaught | they're just part of the version string |
| 22:21.30 | Unit193 | 3.3.2 is the upstream part, -2 is the Debian revision, and ~ is good practice such that ~exp1 (sometimes used in experimental) or backports will suffice. |
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| 22:22.10 | squirrel | aha |
| 22:22.38 | rant | ,v python3 |
| 22:22.39 | judd | Package: python3 on amd64 -- jessie: 3.4.2-2; stretch: 3.5.3-1; buster: 3.7.2-1; sid: 3.7.3-1 |
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| 22:24.05 | squirrel | thanks |
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| 22:50.57 | squirrel | this is probably a stupid question, but i've tried many things and i still can't get fail2ban install due the aforementioned unmet dependency, while i have python 3.7 installed https://bpaste.net/show/5b57cd5724e7 |
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| 22:51.19 | squirrel | really don't know where to go from here, any ideas? |
| 22:53.40 | And1am0 | SOMEONE FAMILIAR WITH BOTNETS AND FUD's ??? |
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| 22:54.15 | jmcnaught | squirrel: it looks like you installed python3 3.7 from somewhere other than your distro's repository, which was probably a mistake. Also you're using raspbian, which unfortunately isn't supported here. I think there's a #raspbian channel. |
| 22:54.26 | dax | i'm familiar with kicking them off freenode because we don't do that sort of nonsense here |
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| 22:58.42 | squirrel | jmcnaught: where do you see that 3.7 was installed from elesewhere? and why is this a problem? i know there's #raspbian but it's dead and i don't know where else to ask |
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| 23:02.05 | jmcnaught | squirrel: there's also ##linux. I could tell from the output of "apt-cache policy python3", the one in the repo is 3.5.3-1 but you have 3.7.1-3 instead which could very well have different dependencies. |
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| 23:12.31 | ryouma | according to an integrity checker, stretch, but not jessie, seems to change mtime and ctime of /root. any clues on what this could be? |
| 23:12.53 | jmcnaught | And1am0: please stop messaging me about botnets |
| 23:15.58 | abrotman | jhutchins: I'm around, just been busy |
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| 23:17.38 | squirrel | jmcnaught: thanks, removing 3.7.1-3 helped, but why was it a problem in the first place? |
| 23:18.25 | ryouma | is there a tool in debian that will help me find what is changing /root mtime and ctime, and when? perhaps it is a file created and then deleted? |
| 23:18.40 | abrotman | you want to watch an inode? |
| 23:19.02 | abrotman | famd and inotify perhaps |
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| 23:21.00 | jmcnaught | squirrel: Debian and distros based on it aren't designed for interchangeable packages between distros and releases. Packages are compiled against specific versions of libraries for that distro release, and also dependencies can be different in other distros or releases. |
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| 23:24.56 | squirrel | jmcnaught: but why couldn't apt-get just install whatever version it needed? |
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| 23:25.53 | squirrel | couldn't i have had both 3.7 and 3.5? |
| 23:28.47 | jmcnaught | squirrel: you cannot have two versions of a package with the same name |
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| 23:30.04 | ryouma | sometimes there are 2 versions of the same thing, but with 2 packages each with a number appended, like 2 versions of python or whatever |
| 23:30.12 | ryouma | squirrel: |
| 23:32.42 | squirrel | so uh. python3, python3.5 and python3.7 are 3 different packages? |
| 23:33.42 | jmcnaught | no but python and python3 are (in Debian at least, raspbian could be different) |
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| 23:37.03 | squirrel | but aptitude install python3, aptitude install python3.4 and aptitude install python3.5 produce different results |
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| 23:37.23 | KendraV | You want to look at mе without clothes, sweetie (EXCLUSIVE FREE FOR NEXT 3 PEOPLE!!) ;-) follow the link and add me as a friend -----------> https://cutt.ly/3tYwHa ⥠|
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| 23:46.22 | jmcnaught | squirrel: well you're using raspbian not Debian, which is why we don't support raspbian here because we don't know these differences |
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