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| 00:13.31 | garotosopa | Hi. I've just installed Debian 10 with Gnome and when I go to Settings, Online Accounts and click on Google, it crashes. If I launch gnome-control-center on the command line I get "Gdk-Message: 21:10:15.844: Error 71 (Protocol error) dispatching to Wayland display." Is it a bug worth reporting? |
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| 00:15.40 | jim | hi, how does live-build know which image to build? |
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| 00:20.32 | *** topic/#debian is Debian 10 Buster released! /msg dpkg buster; /msg dpkg stretch->buster; /msg dpkg apt suite changed | Oldstable Stretch: /msg dpkg stretch ; /msg dpkg 9.9 ; 9.9 needs dist-upgrade | Jessie: jessie-{updates,backports} removed, /msg dpkg jessie-lts | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing/unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net| chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog |
| 00:25.21 | Waxhead | Is it possible to "tune" the root login (getty) so that it always have "realtime" priority? Quite useful to avoid slowness in case some program eats up all ram and you need to quickly do a ctrl+alt+f6 or something to nuke it. |
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| 00:35.02 | jmcnaught | Waxhead: you could maybe create a drop-in with 'systemctl edit getty@tty1.service' (for tty1) and set CPUSchedulingPriority=99 (see 'man systemd.exec') |
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| 00:42.32 | m4t | is there a way to fix this dependency loop with davfs2+systemd+buster? i.e. "systemd[1]: local-fs.target: Job storage-box.mount/stop deleted to break ordering cycle starting with local-fs.target/stop" |
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| 00:42.40 | m4t | more @ https://paste.ee/p/0NJC4#rc3pKLXnXgcMqMxrmhJfBKHFBCTOgFi8 |
| 00:43.09 | m4t | davfs is obviously a network filesystem and is marked as such in fstab with _netdev |
| 00:43.53 | m4t | it's not breaking things too badly but on reboot davfs2 complains about orphaned cache items, i think because it's being SIGTERM'd rather than gracefully unmounted |
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| 00:59.41 | m4t | hmm it seems to incorrectly have this added (from systemctl show -p Wants -p After storage-box.mount): Before=remote-fs.target umount.target local-fs.target |
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| 01:20.30 | namll | will i have to re-install debian on my server if I want to setup a 6tb drive? |
| 01:20.45 | namll | does modern versions accomidate for this now? or do I have to load a special kernal |
| 01:21.50 | epsilon | migrate to 6tb disk or just add 6tb to filesystem for more capacity? |
| 01:22.00 | namll | add for more capcity |
| 01:22.42 | epsilon | just attach, any kernel not older than 20 years should be able to handle 6tb |
| 01:22.58 | jmcnaught | m4t: I would try asking in #systemd |
| 01:23.21 | namll | awesome, thanks for the answer, what is the issue with drives larger than 2TB and debian? |
| 01:23.52 | namll | or for linux distros besides entriprise ones. |
| 01:24.43 | epsilon | namli: just ignore, that was an issue on OS' early 2000 when first disks came out beyond GB |
| 01:24.48 | m4t | jmcnaught: yeah thanks that's my next stop |
| 01:24.54 | epsilon | long long time ago |
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| 01:25.30 | namll | epsilon: gotcha, it sounded like an odd restriction for current year. Thanks. |
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| 01:32.58 | m4t | i may have actually fixed it by adding 'nofail' to fstab |
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| 01:37.31 | akk | Anyone know the status of the virtualbox packages? |
| 01:37.59 | akk | I'm running testing, and tried #debian-next first but it's invite only now. |
| 01:38.17 | jmcnaught | akk: #debian-next is on irc.oftc.net not on freenode |
| 01:38.30 | akk | oh, facepalm, sorry |
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| 01:39.36 | Beggar | hi hi |
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| 01:41.13 | Beggar | I removed manually all alsa settings, then pulse adirectories too from usr and etc. Then I used confmiss to recosntruct them. I did it with libasound2, libasound2-data, libasound2-plugin, alsa-utils and pulseaudio |
| 01:42.18 | Beggar | after that I could access pulseaudio options and then I unmuted the microfone, nothing happened, then I muted it and unmuted and the microfone came back to work. I unistalled pulseaudio again and the microfone still working. |
| 01:43.22 | Beggar | I am kind of happy that the problem was solved, but at the same time I am kind of puzzled here. How pulseaudio can mute the microfone withoutit appearing as mute in alsamixer? |
| 01:44.23 | Beggar | Also... What happened when I re-unmuted it throught pulseaudio? As far as I know pulseaudio si just a layer OVER ALSA, so it depends on alsa to operate... how can it make something alsa can not? |
| 01:46.28 | akk | Actually, it looks like there's no virtualbox in buster either? |
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| 01:46.46 | annadane | correct |
| 01:47.04 | annadane | ,v virtualbox |
| 01:47.05 | judd | Package: virtualbox on amd64 -- jessie/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; jessie-security/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; stretch-backports/contrib: 5.2.24-dfsg-4~bpo9+1; sid/contrib: 6.0.10-dfsg-1 |
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| 01:47.28 | annadane | testing... i don't know if you can get it from sid, people do mix testing and unstable packages occasionally |
| 01:47.35 | m4t | yeah, adding nofail to the davfs2 entry in /etc/fstab fixed it. thanks |
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| 01:47.54 | Beggar | ,v apulse |
| 01:47.55 | judd | Package: apulse on amd64 -- bullseye: 0.1.12-2; buster: 0.1.12-2; sid: 0.1.12-2 |
| 01:48.02 | Beggar | made me happy enough ^ |
| 01:48.10 | Beggar | stretch did not had this yet |
| 01:48.11 | Beggar | hehe |
| 01:48.40 | uRock | I got VBox from their website. |
| 01:48.59 | jmcnaught | I use libvirt with virt-manager |
| 01:49.06 | Beggar | qemu is not an option? |
| 01:50.48 | akk | I've never actually used qemu; when I've looked into it it always required processor extensions I didn't have. |
| 01:50.55 | akk | Though I think this machine actually does have them. |
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| 01:51.36 | Beggar | I found qemu to be versatile to my needs at least |
| 01:51.39 | akk | Can it use virtualbox VMs like .ova ? I'd like to run a windows vm for the rare occasion when I need something like an adobe ebook. |
| 01:51.51 | Beggar | -kvm-enable solve msot of the issues usually. |
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| 01:52.49 | Beggar | IIRC it was the VM behing virtualbox before |
| 01:52.58 | annadane | i can't imagine having to learn QEMU's syntax; thus, virt-manager |
| 01:53.05 | annadane | but i'm an idiot, so there's that |
| 01:54.20 | akk | I'd just as soon not spend a lot of time learning qemu syntax either (one benefit of virtualbox, it was pretty easy to get started) so I appreciate the tip, annadane |
| 01:54.53 | mrquincy | Just logged in so that I don't have to watch all the packages stream by in my stretch->buster upgrade. Too scary. Can't look. |
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| 01:55.06 | uRock | lol |
| 01:55.09 | Beggar | LOL |
| 01:55.15 | lizzie | if I don't have a /usr/lib/dri folder, what package am I missing? |
| 01:55.34 | Beggar | somethign related to xserver? |
| 01:55.46 | Beggar | maybe mesa |
| 01:56.24 | annadane | https://www.startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=%2Fusr%2Flib%2Fdri%20debian |
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| 01:58.21 | jmcnaught | lizzie: according to 'apt-file search /usr/lib/dir' that path does not exist in any Debian packages. What are you trying to do? |
| 01:58.30 | annadane | oh, you can just do that. okay |
| 01:58.38 | annadane | TIL |
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| 02:07.11 | mrquincy | Ya'll know that SuperTuxKart v1.0 is out in Sid? Supports online multiplayer, and it is in fact, riteous. |
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| 02:07.39 | mrquincy | Has arena soccor mode too |
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| 02:08.36 | mrquincy | at least I believe they put the soccer mode in all the versions with online multiplayer |
| 02:09.19 | mrquincy | yes, confirmed |
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| 02:16.42 | lizzie | jmcnaught: dri, not dir. but thank you for the command! sadly I still can't seem to find it. |
| 02:17.33 | lizzie | ok I found it when I searched for just the filename using that same command |
| 02:17.37 | lizzie | I'm trying to find out why steam complains of missing swrast_dri.so on my netbook |
| 02:18.01 | lizzie | apparently this package is already installed so that wasn't it, probably something with the library load path, anyways thanks for that useful command! |
| 02:18.41 | jmcnaught | lizzie: oops typo in my message. Are you using the steam package in Debian contrib? |
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| 02:20.49 | lizzie | jmcnaught: I think so... let me just check because it was a while since I originally tried to install it |
| 02:21.14 | lizzie | but based on a forum I tried the workaround of deleting steam's prepackaged libstdc++.so.6* |
| 02:21.17 | lizzie | so far it seems to be getting farther |
| 02:22.25 | jmcnaught | lizzie: well there's a wiki page about it https://wiki.debian.org/Steam but I installed steam using flatpak, it was very straightforward |
| 02:22.39 | lizzie | no, it looks like I'm using valve's steam package, and I have their sources in sources.list.d |
| 02:25.28 | lizzie | jmcnaught: ah ok, I can see now that the page you linked mentions the same workaround, and it doesn't seem like it matters which steam package I use since steam downloading the libraries itself is the issue |
| 02:25.53 | lizzie | it's taking a bit to do the steam update (very slow netbook), but I'll elt you know if it launches normally |
| 02:26.12 | lizzie | and I'll just remember that when in doubt I should check that wiki page again and delete .so files |
| 02:26.17 | lizzie | thanks! |
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| 02:32.16 | lizzie | ok, all good! steam works |
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| 02:37.19 | akk | annadane: Do you know of a good virt-manager tutorial? I'm striking out figuring out how I'm supposed to start the libvirt-daemon to make virt-manager happy. |
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| 02:38.00 | akk | I'm finding lots of redhat-oriented tutorials and a few 3-year-old ubuntu tutorials referencing packages that no longer exist in debian. |
| 02:38.20 | Tom-_ | no idea |
| 02:38.24 | Tom-_ | !libvirt |
| 02:38.24 | dpkg | Libvirt is a library for interfacing with different virtualization systems. http://libvirt.org/ #virt on irc.oftc.net. |
| 02:38.38 | Tom-_ | i haven't learned or used libvirt yet |
| 02:38.41 | annadane | akk, i'm a little confused on that myself, i've had times where it searches forever as started by root and other times not, sometimes adding myself to the libvirt group and logging in/out does it, restarting the libvirt services etc |
| 02:38.44 | Tom-_ | but maybe someone else will know |
| 02:39.28 | annadane | systemctl list-units | grep virt |
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| 02:39.59 | akk | The only thing that lists is sys-devices-virtual-misc-rfkill.device |
| 02:40.17 | annadane | (to add yourself to groups you have to log out/in for it to take effect but it not clear you have to do that to make it work, vs just running as root) |
| 02:40.23 | annadane | tl;dr: i'm very much not an expert, sorry |
| 02:40.27 | jmcnaught | akk: installing virt-manager should have installed the libvirt-daemon-system package (unless you have recommends disabled?) |
| 02:40.48 | akk | What should it list? Maybe there are yet more packages I need to install, beyond virt-manager qemu-utils virtinst qemu-kvm python-libvirt qemu virt-viewer bridge-utils libvirt-daemon |
| 02:41.23 | akk | jmcnaught: I do have recommends disabled. I guess it's actually a requirement, not a recommend? |
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| 02:41.56 | jmcnaught | akk: I would turn recommends on to avoid problems like this, and only use --no-install-recommends on a case-by-case basis |
| 02:42.18 | akk | I hardly ever want the recommends; this is the first time I've actually needed one in years. |
| 02:42.21 | jmcnaught | akk: it's not a hard requirement for virt-manager probably because virt-manager can manage a remote instance of libvirtd |
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| 02:42.55 | annadane | or just install the one package you need i guess if you know what you're doing and want to avoid cruft |
| 02:43.02 | annadane | but you probably don't know off by heart |
| 02:43.13 | akk | Ugh, that got me farther but now it's complaining "no polkit agent available". |
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| 02:43.31 | akk | I'm increasingly thinking I should go to virtualbox.org and download something from there. |
| 02:43.39 | annadane | i feel your pain, virt-manager doesn't have the world's most descriptive error messages |
| 02:43.54 | akk | I don't want to have to install a bunch of desktop infrastructure just to run a vm once a month. |
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| 02:46.04 | annadane | i'd probably just use qemu + kvm if i actually knew what i was doing |
| 02:46.13 | annadane | or that systemd thingy |
| 02:46.27 | annadane | i'm basically an ape using a computer |
| 02:46.29 | akk | That's the problem, all right, knowing what I'm doing. :) |
| 02:47.00 | annadane | actually i should probably just consult the arch wiki |
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| 02:48.16 | akk | virt-manager is looking like it might be harder than just finding the qemu commands, so I guess I'll try searching for qemu tuts before giving up. |
| 02:48.40 | akk | Hopefully this polkit thing is just a virt-manager requirement and not a qemu/kvm requirement. |
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| 02:48.55 | annadane | polkit drives me insane, there's like 6 different polkits |
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| 02:51.37 | lizzie | so I have an arguably silly problem but basically I have a laptop with a dead battery that always wakes up thinking it's in 2033. Can I make it so my debian system will always run ntpdate on first network connection after a boot? |
| 02:52.33 | akk | Oh, stupid question: when running any of these virtualizers like qemu, do I need to run as root? |
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| 02:55.14 | lizzie | akk: libvirt supports connecting to manage vms as a non-root user (obviously you can't mess with vms that were created under the root domain) |
| 02:55.38 | lizzie | add your user to the groups libvirt and libvirt-qemu |
| 02:55.50 | jmcnaught | that requires policykit to work |
| 02:56.02 | annadane | i wonder if bhyve is any less mystifying |
| 02:56.05 | lizzie | if you want to *directly* run qemu by hand with hardware vm support then you always need root |
| 02:56.24 | lizzie | personally I find virt-manager really convenient. *shrugs* |
| 02:56.43 | lizzie | I don't know much about policykit though |
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| 02:57.15 | akk | I've never needed it before. |
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| 02:59.12 | lizzie | I've never needed to *think* about it, for what it's worth |
| 02:59.26 | akk | Likewise. |
| 03:00.28 | jmcnaught | a lot of stuff in recommends is to make things just work, or more convenient |
| 03:00.48 | akk | qemu apparently needs the kvm_intel kernel module, which won't load because "Operation not supported", even though /proc/cpuinfo says I have the right flags. Sigh. |
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| 03:01.41 | jmcnaught | akk: it could be disabled in your firmware/BIOS |
| 03:02.31 | akk | yeah, I'll check that when I shut down tonight. Weird that there's no way to check that on a running system. |
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| 03:03.24 | akk | virtualbox.org has debs for debian 8 and 9 but not 10 or later. |
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| 03:03.50 | akk | (I had to go to wikipedia to find out what numeric version was current. Is there a way to get the numeric version of the currently running debian?) |
| 03:04.32 | akk | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:05.32 | jmcnaught | lizzie: how long does it take for the time to correct itself? systemd-timesyncd is probably running by default |
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| 03:06.23 | lizzie | well it didn't seem to be happening at all. I'll have to reboot again to check. |
| 03:06.30 | lizzie | is there a way to check that timesyncd is running properly? |
| 03:06.50 | rant | lizzie: date --set="+2 hours" |
| 03:06.58 | jmcnaught | lizzie: systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service |
| 03:07.05 | rant | if its "working" it won't let you change the time :P |
| 03:08.00 | jmcnaught | systemd-timesyncd only runs if ntpd, openntpd, chronyd aren't installed |
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| 03:12.57 | lizzie | interesting, it's not letting me mess up the time, both of the things you two suggested suggest it's working |
| 03:13.02 | lizzie | I will reboot again and see |
| 03:14.27 | jmcnaught | lizzie: maybe it needs to be powered off for a bit to lose the time? |
| 03:14.50 | lizzie | yeah, I meant that, not a true reboot |
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| 03:29.42 | lizzie | great, I can't reproduce the issue when I try :P |
| 03:30.00 | lizzie | it's possible that it was broken before I finished upgrading to debian 10 and it's just not broken now. I'll complain again if it re-emerges |
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| 05:13.27 | shantanoo | hi |
| 05:14.04 | __adan | shantanoo: hi what??? new guy ? |
| 05:14.27 | shantanoo | upgrading 9.x -> 10. getting issue with libc6 upgrade. |
| 05:14.27 | annadane | now now, don't be hostile |
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| 05:15.28 | shantanoo | getting message -> 'kernel must be upgraded. gnu libc requires kernel version 3.2 or later' |
| 05:15.34 | shantanoo | __adan: :) |
| 05:15.38 | shantanoo | thanks annadane |
| 05:16.10 | annadane | we *do* get a bunch of folks who just "hi" and leave :P |
| 05:16.18 | annadane | hmm, anyway, lemme see |
| 05:16.50 | shantanoo | 2.6.32-042stab133.2 ---> uname -r |
| 05:16.59 | annadane | "Starting with glibc 2.26, Linux kernel 3.2 or later is required. To avoid completely breaking the system, the preinst for libc6 performs a check. If this fails, it will abort the package installation, which will leave the upgrade unfinished. If the system is running a kernel older than 3.2, please update it before starting the distribution upgrade." |
| 05:17.04 | annadane | in the release notes ^ |
| 05:17.29 | shantanoo | :( |
| 05:17.33 | shantanoo | am i screwed? |
| 05:18.24 | annadane | i'm not sure. it's possible you can update the kernel in isolation but i'd like other answers |
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| 05:18.51 | shantanoo | doing this on vps... |
| 05:19.24 | shantanoo | few additional restrictions... |
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| 05:27.01 | themill | shantanoo: is this a VPS where you don't actually control your own kernel? (Some sort of openvz thing perhaps) |
| 05:27.15 | shantanoo | themill: yes. its openvz |
| 05:27.50 | shantanoo | iirc, i was able to upgrade from 8 -> 9 |
| 05:27.53 | themill | yeah, you're going to need to yell at your hoster then |
| 05:28.35 | shantanoo | oh. so they need to upgrade it first? |
| 05:28.49 | shantanoo | and then i will be able to fix the issue? |
| 05:29.12 | themill | IIRC that's a RHEL6 kernel. Good luck getting them to upgrade it. |
| 05:30.37 | themill | I recall reading that openvz has some bits that can be flipped to have it pretend to be a different kernel to its containers but I don't know if that actually lets glibc work on the newer kernel |
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| 05:34.20 | shantanoo | :(( |
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| 05:44.32 | darxmurf | I have a auth issue with a samba server for linux users. This samba srv is attached to an MS active directory. Clients can open shares without problem from windows and OSX using DOMAIN\username and password. From mount.cifs I have an access denied. |
| 05:45.10 | darxmurf | The only way I found with mount.cifs is to open a kerberos ticket, then use mount.cifs sec=krb5. |
| 05:45.50 | darxmurf | Why is this server not accepting my login/pass when I access it with username=login,domain=DOMAIN |
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| 05:50.08 | spacejam | Hello, World! |
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| 05:55.35 | spacejam | I am currently running Debian Stretch and am wanting to upgrade. BUT, I can't seem to be able to verify the integrety of the .iso file and the .sign file. I was able to complete the integrety check on the sha512sum file but am at a loss on confirming the public key needed to verify the .iso file. Could someone send me a link to where i can find clear instructions. |
| 05:56.00 | annadane | https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-verify-an-authenticity-of-downloaded-debian-iso-images |
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| 05:56.41 | annadane | spacejam ^ |
| 05:56.48 | annadane | (really should get in the habit of pinging people) |
| 05:56.49 | spacejam | @annadane, Thank you a TON!!! |
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| 05:59.02 | zamuro | I would go with "have you tried downloading the image from another repo?" But I think that's a better answer. |
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| 06:03.07 | annadane | the official page is https://www.debian.org/CD/verify but it's really unclear |
| 06:03.18 | annadane | submitted a patch to change it a little while ago |
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| 06:03.58 | annadane | (debian isn't the only distro to not include "here's how you validate the image" on the same page as the download links, a practice i find irritating) |
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| 06:27.25 | spacejam | Same here! I am going to dual boot with three OSes. Fist one being Debian Bust, Second Ubuntu Studio, and third Tails! I've got a ton ahead of me. lol |
| 06:27.49 | spacejam | Buster... My bad.. |
| 06:28.06 | EoflaOE | spacejam: Nice |
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| 06:29.09 | spacejam | Thx, I figured a teribyte HDD should be put to better use.:) |
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| 06:36.03 | spacejam | Does anybody have any fore knowlege they would be willing to share on the subject of validating other debian based systems, (Ubuntu) or is it in the same ball park? And even more so could you tell me if there is a totaly process for validating tails. |
| 06:36.34 | spacejam | if there is a totally diferent process. |
| 06:38.37 | ratrace | spacejam: "validating"? |
| 06:38.52 | Haohmaru | ubuntu isn't valid ;P~ |
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| 06:40.58 | darxmurf | what's the best way to make a local apt repository ? |
| 06:41.18 | darxmurf | til now I was using apt-mirror but I have some problems with translation files |
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| 06:43.12 | EmleyMoor | "dual boot with 3 OSs" is a bit of a terminology screw up |
| 06:43.32 | spacejam | You mean you don't validate the .iso for integrety? |
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| 06:44.03 | Haohmaru | wut |
| 06:44.30 | spacejam | true, but i have never heard any body say their going to do a tri-boot |
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| 06:45.19 | Haohmaru | last time i checked you can only boot one OS at a time |
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| 06:45.34 | spacejam | quad-boot would sound nice! LOL :) |
| 06:45.49 | Haohmaru | so i'd call your thang a "multi-OS" thang |
| 06:46.31 | spacejam | as long as you have the right amount and the right type of partitions you could run tons of different OSes |
| 06:47.11 | Haohmaru | my goal is to be able to do all my shizzle with just one OS |
| 06:47.14 | spacejam | Its mostly called dual booting, but hey what the heck. |
| 06:47.26 | Haohmaru | we don't call it that way around here |
| 06:47.46 | spacejam | diffent oses for different purposes |
| 06:47.58 | ratrace | spacejam: "validate .iso integrity" doesn't really relate to "validating other debian based systems" and yeah, it's always the same thing, sha256sum on the iso file, check against the hashes you got over https at least |
| 06:48.10 | Haohmaru | that only intensifies the h0rr0r |
| 06:48.53 | spacejam | depends on the color of you hat i would say |
| 06:49.02 | spacejam | lol |
| 06:49.07 | EmleyMoor | Anything I need another OS for goes on a VM |
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| 06:49.35 | Haohmaru | my hat's color is: <error> |
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| 06:50.01 | spacejam | I don't like the over head. To slow, not enough raw power of the computer. :( |
| 06:50.12 | hlh5 | gjhj666 |
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| 06:51.14 | EmleyMoor | My hat is octarine |
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| 06:52.26 | hlh5 | hhh555666 |
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| 06:53.05 | spacejam | Thats like orange, isn't it? |
| 06:54.14 | EmleyMoor | No, it's the colour of magic - greenish purple (a "forbidden" colour) |
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| 06:55.51 | spacejam | Hey, I like green and purple! Great color for the old school muscule cars. So not forbiddin to me. :) |
| 06:56.52 | EmleyMoor | It's not "green and purple", it's a single colour and is in fact impossible |
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| 07:09.06 | PaulePanter | For people experiencing bug #932861, you can get the system to boot by specifying `fastboot` on the Linux kernel command line, and then install the package *logsave* manually. |
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| 07:16.52 | silverballz | thank you for the heads up PaulePanter |
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| 07:27.36 | Blockah | I want to use the verdana font but hexchat and every other application has nowhere near as many as fonts as windows... Is there some sort of font package I need to install inside debian to unlock them? |
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| 07:29.25 | ratrace | Blockah: apt search --names-only fonts- |
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| 07:29.54 | ratrace | verdana in particular is i think in ttf-mscorefonts-installer package |
| 07:30.32 | EmleyMoor | There are lots of fonts available in Debian - there are some that are "like" others, and you can have the real one too |
| 07:30.39 | ratrace | but fonts-liberation should contain metrically similar fonts, if you want to stay foss-y |
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| 07:31.18 | EmleyMoor | DejaVu Sans is the Verdana equivalent |
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| 07:33.03 | stanisl | hey i just installed liferea and there are great preinstalled sources. thanks debian community! |
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| 07:34.41 | Blockah | fonts-arkpandora - Replacement fonts for Microsoft's Arial, Times, and Verdana fonts |
| 07:34.48 | Blockah | This might do the trick |
| 07:34.58 | Blockah | Would hexchat need to be restarted to recognize the new fonts? |
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| 07:35.44 | Haohmaru | no |
| 07:35.53 | EoflaOE | Blockah: It should parse fonts automatically |
| 07:35.56 | Haohmaru | you might have to reopen the font picker dialog |
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| 07:36.31 | Blockah | Didn't work sadly |
| 07:36.48 | EmleyMoor | How not? To what aspect? |
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| 07:37.00 | Haohmaru | it's usually not enough to just merely install a package of new fonts IME |
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| 07:37.45 | Haohmaru | this "dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig" floats in the back of my mind |
| 07:37.54 | Blockah | EmleyMoor, didn't pick it up |
| 07:38.00 | Blockah | Lemme try |
| 07:38.40 | Blockah | No change, hexchat must need a restart |
| 07:38.42 | EmleyMoor | Try that hint above. Otherwise, how are you proving the negative? What are you not seeing that you expect to see? |
| 07:39.06 | Haohmaru | i think he installed some new font, and wants to use it in hexchat |
| 07:39.10 | Blockah | Verdana not only didn't show up in the font list but no extra fonts were available compared to before |
| 07:39.27 | EmleyMoor | Verdana won't show up, as you're not installing it |
| 07:39.51 | Haohmaru | Blockah does it happen to be a bitmap font? |
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| 07:39.58 | EmleyMoor | (however, you may well be right on the other point) |
| 07:40.40 | Haohmaru | not sure why but debian tends to come with bitmap fonts *disabled* o_O |
| 07:40.46 | Blockah | No idea? Just wanted verdana, but no new fonts came about using after installing fonts-arkpandora and reconfiguring the fontconfig |
| 07:41.25 | Haohmaru | try this, launch a text editor like leafpad/mousepad or whatever, check if you see the new fonts there |
| 07:41.37 | Haohmaru | if yes - then maybe hexchat needs a restart |
| 07:41.53 | EmleyMoor | Blockah: If you want actual Verdana you're going to have to use the msttcorefonts thing |
| 07:42.23 | Haohmaru | i quite like Liberation Sans |
| 07:42.50 | EmleyMoor | I use the Liberation fonts, and Carlito, quite a lot |
| 07:43.00 | Haohmaru | but i wouldn't use it for irc or coding |
| 07:43.21 | Blockah | Mousepad showed a new font called Veranda HexChat finds it not |
| 07:43.22 | Haohmaru | "fixed 8" is what i use for those |
| 07:44.21 | EmleyMoor | Blockah: Restart HexChat |
| 07:44.43 | Blockah | Great, now it's like Windows restarts every few changes haha |
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| 07:44.51 | Blockah | Damn you hexchat lol |
| 07:45.03 | Blockah | Thanks for the advice |
| 07:45.25 | EmleyMoor | I would generally use a monospace font for IRC, but when I'm accessing it through XMPP, I stick with the default in the client. |
| 07:45.28 | Haohmaru | i have the impression that i didn't have to close hexchat for new fonts to appear in it, but i might be wrong |
| 07:45.43 | jelly | you're not wrong |
| 07:46.03 | EmleyMoor | Blockah: Nothing like Windows. With that you'd have to reboot... this is just restarting one app |
| 07:46.06 | Haohmaru | just have to close the font picker dialog |
| 07:48.32 | Blockah | EmleyMoor, A restart is a restart, clear sign of people not knowing what they're doing imagine if apt-get update && apt-get upgrade required a reboot... |
| 07:48.34 | Blockah | Lol jokes |
| 07:49.03 | jelly | ,i ttf-mscorefonts-installer |
| 07:49.04 | judd | Package ttf-mscorefonts-installer (contrib/fonts, optional) in buster/amd64: Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts. Version: 3.7; Size: 30.6k; Installed: 92k |
| 07:49.06 | EmleyMoor | Blockah: It does, if you upgrade the kernel |
| 07:49.24 | Blockah | Lol |
| 07:50.04 | ratrace | or dbus or glibc |
| 07:50.11 | Haohmaru | am i the only one who is annoyed that bitmap fonts are disabled by default? |
| 07:50.28 | EmleyMoor | [citation needed] |
| 07:51.32 | Blockah | 8bit fonts? Wouldn't that look like dog poop? |
| 07:51.39 | Blockah | Pacman $hit? |
| 07:51.44 | jelly | they're 1 bit, not 8 bit |
| 07:52.02 | Haohmaru | they are monochrome raster fonts |
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| 07:52.23 | Blockah | I'm a dumb ass I assumed fonts were 32bit lol |
| 07:52.26 | Haohmaru | in contrast to vector fonts |
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| 07:53.05 | alkisg | It's like .png/.bmp/.jpg images, vs .svg images |
| 07:53.15 | Haohmaru | yeah |
| 07:53.28 | Haohmaru | i love "fixed 8" maaan |
| 07:53.30 | jelly | Haohmaru, freetype does not handle them well which is why they're disabled there. Apps that can use them natively already do regardless of that default setting |
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| 07:55.00 | jelly | try and see what Firefox does to web pages that prefer "Helvetica" when bitmap fonts are enabled, you might be surprised! |
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| 07:56.17 | Haohmaru | so freetype is a font-engine library thang |
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| 07:57.52 | Haohmaru | it says it can do BDF and even M$ .FON |
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| 08:00.48 | Haohmaru | PCF too |
| 08:01.40 | deadrom | hi all. hard time figuring the disks on a server. machine has to SAS controllers, one attached to a storage, on for internal drives, which has 2 disks. lsscsi -g tells me the real devices on this hpsa-module loaded drives are /dev/sdg1 and 2, but those should from a raid 1 set but list different partitions |
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| 08:02.17 | Blockah | df -h might help deadrom but probably no |
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| 08:03.40 | EmleyMoor | deadrom: /dev/sdX are usually disks, /dev/sdX1, 2 etc are partitions thereof. Not saying yours mightn't be different but that's what I would expect |
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| 08:04.26 | EmleyMoor | sfdisk -l /dev/sdg might help |
| 08:04.33 | Blockah | dmesg might help |
| 08:04.39 | Blockah | Ah |
| 08:05.00 | deadrom | EmleyMoor: server games. I'd rather expect /dev/cciss0/c0d1p1 or such but the hpsa module that loaded for this seems to work differently |
| 08:05.33 | EmleyMoor | deadrom: Why would you expect that? That doesn't sound very Linux-y |
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| 08:06.13 | deadrom | EmleyMoor because that's how hp controllers usually look in linux? |
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| 08:06.39 | EmleyMoor | deadrom, That's not how *anything* usually looks in Linux to my experience |
| 08:06.43 | jelly | deadrom, that WAS how they looked up until about 8 years back. hpsa works like all the normal scsi controller drivers, and you get /dev/sd* |
| 08:06.59 | jelly | cciss driver was... special. |
| 08:07.07 | EmleyMoor | 8 years - ancient history in Debian terms |
| 08:07.27 | EmleyMoor | has been using it for 20 |
| 08:07.32 | deadrom | jelly, great now I feel old again :) yes, been a while since I linuxed on a Proliant |
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| 08:08.31 | pragomer | hi. I have a dd-image of my luks-encrypted system-harddisk. how can I mount the luks-root from the dd image? |
| 08:09.33 | EmleyMoor | pragomer: what are you actually trying to do? (i.e. why do you want to mount that?) |
| 08:09.37 | deadrom | pragomer, I'd say mount the image to a loop device and then mount the loop device like you would mount the luks volume |
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| 08:10.02 | pragomer | because I lost my data and want to copy things from my home folder inside this encrypted image |
| 08:10.02 | deadrom | pragomer, is that a *disk* image or *partition* image? |
| 08:10.03 | jelly | pragomer, use losetup to create a block device from the image, then use the usual crypysetup luksOpen thing on that /dev/loopTHING |
| 08:10.12 | pragomer | its a disk image |
| 08:10.18 | pragomer | i tried losetup like this |
| 08:10.23 | pragomer | (as root) |
| 08:10.40 | pragomer | losetup -o $((512*partitionoffset)) /dev/loop0 myimage.dd |
| 08:10.44 | jelly | a partitioned disk image would require one more level of indirection to get just the specific partition |
| 08:10.45 | pragomer | but this gives me: |
| 08:11.03 | pragomer | dev/loop0 device or resource busy |
| 08:11.09 | pragomer | (also loop1-7) |
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| 08:11.26 | deadrom | pragomer then you might to add to the losetp where to start and end, so it really only mounts the partition, no tthe entire disk with mbr and all. see google on "mount partition from a disk image", you should finde the proper commands. but: you need to know the partition size |
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| 08:11.44 | deadrom | oh, you did that :D |
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| 08:11.57 | jelly | pragomer, did you delete the losetup for the whole image first? |
| 08:12.00 | pragomer | yes, I have these data: https://i.imgur.com/gJg4RFN.png |
| 08:12.17 | pragomer | yes I did |
| 08:12.22 | pragomer | losetup -d |
| 08:13.03 | jelly | you could also make a loop device for the whole image if that works, and then use kpartx to make devices for partitions inside |
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| 08:13.07 | Blockah | I remember hearing from a nub, Windows is more secure than debian because of ESET NOD32 and linux is freeware garbage that anyone can hack even ssh is insecure with brute forcing... *I sighed* Pointed him towards IPTables and a facepalm |
| 08:13.14 | deadrom | pragomer just to rule it out, you adapted "partitonoffset"? |
| 08:13.41 | pragomer | I took the partition beginning ofset, yes |
| 08:14.22 | jelly | I have no idea why losetup -o ... fails that way. RTFM might be useful or not. |
| 08:14.32 | deadrom | pragomer, fuser -v /dev/loop[0..7] tell you anythign who might be hogging the loop devices? all of them seems strange |
| 08:14.50 | deadrom | not sure if fuser works on loops |
| 08:14.59 | pragomer | ok, I will give myself some more tries... but thanks in anyway. i know i am generally on the right way |
| 08:15.07 | Blockah | Classic nub lines: You do realize you're having these issues because AMD doesn't play nice right? -- Intel would have done it all for you |
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| 08:15.58 | jelly | deadrom, fuser looks up and shows userspace processes with file descriptors, not kernel drivers, so it won't help |
| 08:16.45 | jelly | Blockah, this is a tech support channel, if there's support going on try to keep it ontopic. We have #debian-offtopic for chat! |
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| 08:17.07 | Blockah | jelly, Are you serious? Who decided to split support from chat? |
| 08:17.24 | jelly | #debian ops, 15 years back |
| 08:17.36 | deadrom | Blockah channel admins? since forever ago? |
| 08:17.42 | Blockah | jelly, Talk about not wanting a challenge |
| 08:17.55 | Blockah | What next? Planets for each person lol |
| 08:18.05 | Blockah | Thanks for the help |
| 08:18.08 | Blockah | wonders off |
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| 08:19.42 | centrix | I am setting up squid + kerberos to authorize against AD. Do I need to use the "net ads" commands instead of realm command? |
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| 08:20.37 | jelly | realmd does net ads join for you, far as I remember |
| 08:20.46 | gidna | Hello |
| 08:20.59 | jelly | if you're doing it by joining the whole machine into AD |
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| 08:22.26 | lope | weird that when I installed debian, I specified 10G for the first partition, but it made the partition 9.3G |
| 08:22.30 | lope | Rather lame actually |
| 08:22.40 | lope | I prefer round numbers. It's easier if I hose my partition table |
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| 08:22.43 | Habbie | did it make it 9.3G, or is 9.3G usable? |
| 08:23.04 | Habbie | or are two tools converting a huge number to a small number in different ways? |
| 08:23.04 | lope | habbie, well I just created a 2nd partition in fdisk and it looks like this |
| 08:23.11 | Habbie | show us please |
| 08:23.37 | lope | /dev/sdb1 * 2048 19531775 19529728 9.3G fd Linux raid autodetect |
| 08:23.44 | lope | /dev/sdb2 19531776 459933695 440401920 210G bf Solaris |
| 08:23.58 | lope | sda is the same |
| 08:24.24 | lope | that's fdisk's output |
| 08:24.37 | Habbie | that's in 512 byte blocks, right? |
| 08:24.38 | lope | showing me what the debian installer made (1) and fdisk made now (2) |
| 08:24.43 | lope | yes |
| 08:24.54 | Habbie | 19531775*512 = 10000268800 |
| 08:25.09 | Habbie | i.e. 10.0002688 billion bytes |
| 08:25.33 | Habbie | it is also 9.3 * 1024*1024*1024 bytes |
| 08:25.35 | Habbie | gigabytes vs. gibibytes |
| 08:25.37 | lope | Why such bullshit measurements though |
| 08:25.46 | ratrace | GB vs GiB |
| 08:25.55 | Habbie | i'm not a fan of your word choices, lope, i'm trying to help here |
| 08:26.04 | lope | Exactly, why is the debian installer using GB instead of GiB |
| 08:26.42 | lope | Habbie, I've got nothing against you my friend. Just saying Debian shouldn't be using Hard drive manufacturers marketing department measurements |
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| 08:26.55 | lope | but should use actual computer science measurements |
| 08:27.00 | ratrace | you can specify GiB too in the installer |
| 08:27.06 | ratrace | i think at least |
| 08:27.17 | deadrom | you'd find plenty of arguments for both sides. the meat anser of course is: use LVM :) |
| 08:27.20 | lope | Ah, I'll look for it more closely next time |
| 08:27.32 | deadrom | *meta answer |
| 08:27.40 | ratrace | lvm sucks |
| 08:27.55 | Haohmaru | i still don't know wut lvm really is |
| 08:28.01 | ratrace | abstraction of abstraction of abstraction of abstraction. |
| 08:28.03 | lope | I used to love LVM, but it's actually bad for performance on HDD's if you change LV's a lot |
| 08:28.08 | lope | creates fragmentation |
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| 08:28.19 | ratrace | i have really really high hopes for btrfs |
| 08:28.20 | lope | and LVM doesn't defrag |
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| 08:29.07 | deadrom | it adds a new layer, yes, but when you've done your things right it's the only layer you need to care about. fragmentation, what fs frags these days? |
| 08:29.30 | ratrace | lvm has nothing to do with filesystem fragmentation |
| 08:29.40 | ratrace | lvm is not a filesystem |
| 08:29.50 | deadrom | if you constatnly fiddle with LV sizes they get fragged ok, but don't do that, make up you mind on what you need and stick to that |
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| 08:30.23 | lope | deadrom, if you could make up your mind and not change LV sizes you should just use GPT and be done with it. |
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| 08:30.33 | lope | but that's LVM's whole selling point |
| 08:30.44 | lope | being able to add and remove LVs without caring where the data is stored |
| 08:30.49 | lope | But that's ACTUALLY a problem. |
| 08:31.02 | lope | because you can pretend you don't care, then your performance gets hosed. |
| 08:31.14 | lope | LVM's an incomplete solution in my opinion |
| 08:31.23 | lope | It's a half solution |
| 08:31.41 | ratrace | it's in the base of redhats new flagship storage kitchensink "stratis" |
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| 08:31.50 | lope | Abstract away where the data gets stored, but then doesn't actually do any background defragging of block positions |
| 08:31.59 | Haohmaru | wait, is this LVM thing about letting you change partition sizes without that requiring physically "moving" data back and forward? |
| 08:32.08 | gidna | with the netinstall have I to install all packages online during the installation phase or can I install the core and the other packages at a later moment? |
| 08:32.18 | lope | LVM's fine on a SSD |
| 08:32.20 | deadrom | I'd like to see a system where lvm has notable/measurable perf impact and then the history of what happened to it. but if you need on the fly size mgmt it's your current best shot. btrfs is a bit too fresh to trust it for prod use |
| 08:32.33 | ratrace | Haohmaru: kind of, yes |
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| 08:32.45 | Haohmaru | okay, so.. i don't need that then |
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| 08:32.57 | ratrace | gidna: you can install most minimal "core" debian with netinst, and then add on packages later |
| 08:32.58 | lope | deadrom, there IS a tool to defrag LVM, but I've not looked into it. |
| 08:33.05 | deadrom | but, really, who fragments LVM volumes to more than a handful of chunks? |
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| 08:33.35 | lope | deadrom, well if you use LVM for VM's and you're constantly moving them around, cloning expanding, shrinking, then it happens. |
| 08:34.04 | lope | especially when you've got lots of users who do it on a whim |
| 08:34.21 | deadrom | lope, like I said, you shouln't do that in the first place. size your use cases and keep them |
| 08:34.23 | lope | then LVM fragments like a normal filesystem |
| 08:34.37 | lope | deadrom, it's LVM's whole selling point |
| 08:34.38 | ratrace | that'd be some pretty extreme usage for that to happen |
| 08:35.07 | lope | saying don't change LV's too much on LVM is the same as saying LVM is almost pointless. |
| 08:35.27 | ratrace | the lvm selling point is that you can combine multiple pv's into one or more vgs which you partition into lvs. it never was about using lvs as if they were "files" |
| 08:35.35 | deadrom | my point exactly. just cause your car (yay! car analogy!) has adjustable ride height dampers you don't fiddle with them after every turn. |
| 08:35.39 | EmleyMoor | lope: Out of interest, how do I check my LVs for fragmentation? |
| 08:35.50 | deadrom | good question! |
| 08:36.04 | lope | EmleyMoor, I've got no idea, there's a tool to defrag LVM, do a search for it and see if it can tell you |
| 08:36.37 | lope | ratrace, well some applications use LV's as if they are files |
| 08:36.50 | lope | (as you describe it) |
| 08:36.57 | lope | anyway, I'm gonna GBTW |
| 08:37.04 | lope | thanks for the chat |
| 08:37.20 | Haohmaru | so the LVM magic happens in the "device driver" .. grate |
| 08:37.28 | Haohmaru | runtime overhead ;P~ |
| 08:38.09 | deadrom | applications should not have the right to alter LVs imo. that's like yanking the nerves in a horse to control its direction |
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| 08:40.31 | ratrace | indeed, there's fallocate(1) if one wants a block of reserved contiguous disk space, for vms or whatever |
| 08:40.31 | netcrash | Hello, how can I place a module in initrd ? |
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| 08:41.41 | jelly | lope, a pvmove to a temporary disk and back can easily reorder blockdev lvm fragments |
| 08:41.43 | ratrace | netcrash: via initramfs-tools hooks |
| 08:42.22 | jelly | netcrash, add module name to /etc/initramfs-tools/modules and rebuild. |
| 08:42.38 | jelly | hooks are for more complex stuff. |
| 08:42.45 | ratrace | indeed, i forgot about the modules file |
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| 08:53.04 | netcrash | ratrace: jelly thank you , just updated and after the boot by pxe from a host , it still shows a message that ipconfig can't find a device |
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| 08:53.38 | rapidsp | hi, i have a problem. In laptop monitor cant wake up by keyboard/mouse. but it works after c-a-f1, a-f7 |
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| 08:54.15 | jelly | netcrash, you will need to be more specific than that |
| 08:54.18 | jelly | !ask |
| 08:54.18 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
| 08:54.25 | jelly | !paste |
| 08:54.25 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: http://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: http://file.io/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): http://file.io or http://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>. |
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| 08:54.43 | rapidsp | problem with openbox and lxde. in gnome and kde works good |
| 08:55.44 | deadrom | rapidsp, sounds like power management. kde and gnome do a lot of power maanagment on their own, with the @lightweights@ zou probablz need to tell the machine a few things on the command line |
| 08:56.26 | deadrom | *you probably |
| 08:56.29 | ratrace | zou kezboard changed lazout midsentence |
| 08:56.36 | netcrash | jelly: I have to boot this recent laptop into clonezilla to do a clone, the laptop uses de e1000e driver from intel wich I now added to initramfs and ran update-initramfs -u ; lsinitramfs /boot/initrd.img-4.19.0-5-amd64 | grep e1000e . shows the module is in initramfs . But the laptop on booting by this initrd says it can't find a device to configure |
| 08:57.04 | deadrom | ratrace, circumstances force me to use the *world market leader OS*... |
| 08:57.12 | ratrace | android? |
| 08:57.35 | deadrom | actually not sure if I would like that better |
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| 08:57.42 | rapidsp | deadrom: i think same. but it worked early... |
| 08:58.07 | deadrom | MS is evil, but inept. Alphabet then... |
| 08:58.28 | deadrom | rapidsp, hard to tell but setup manually and you have it sorted once and for all |
| 08:59.02 | deadrom | is there a way of telling from a linux machine if a windows ntfs is bitlocker encrypted? |
| 08:59.19 | ratrace | i'd take proprietarized linux kernel running java-api-based userland over windows any day |
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| 09:00.28 | jelly | netcrash, I have no idea what "can't find a device to configure" means in this context |
| 09:00.32 | jelly | !debug initramfs |
| 09:00.32 | dpkg | hmm... initramfsdebug is http://wiki.debian.org/InitramfsDebug |
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| 09:00.50 | jelly | netcrash, perhaps you can figure out which specific command is failing |
| 09:00.57 | ratrace | netcrash: also, wait, why is your initramfs asking for network? got dropbear in there? |
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| 09:02.45 | thunfisch | hey, quick question: for unattended upgrades, is there some way to configure staggering of upgrades across a group of host? i.e. i have a group of load-balanced app-servers and i want to have at most one of the servers upgrading at a time. |
| 09:03.12 | thunfisch | of course i can just configure offsets for the checks, but having some intelligence there would make me a bit more comfortable |
| 09:03.40 | ratrace | thunfisch: tune the .timers that start the service? you can also randomize around a point in time with them |
| 09:04.03 | thunfisch | yeah was hoping to avoid something like that. seems really crude. |
| 09:04.28 | ratrace | meanwhile, i recommend never using unattended anything on a server where you clearly require serialization of actions. ansible, saltstack, chef, puppet, ... |
| 09:04.45 | jelly | thunfisch, no, that thing is really designed more for single workstations than parallel installations |
| 09:04.52 | ratrace | thunfisch: it's unattended, it doesn't get any more sophisticated than that |
| 09:04.59 | thunfisch | alright. thanks. |
| 09:05.10 | netcrash | ratrace: jelly I'm trying to boot clonezilla menu to do a clone of the disk, I placed a initrd from kernel 4.19 , but busy box shows a kernel 4.9 |
| 09:05.37 | thunfisch | any other recommendations? we have to manage updates on roughly 700 servers. old way was puppet running an apt command periodically, but that makes me frown. |
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| 09:05.47 | jelly | netcrash, so fix the initramfs of the actual kernel you're booting? |
| 09:05.54 | ratrace | thunfisch: saltstack |
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| 09:06.58 | ratrace | thunfisch: i dont' think any other solution exists logically. unattended upgrades is run by a timer. either you tune the timer or you don't run that but use automation to schedule updates actively. |
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| 09:07.48 | ratrace | there is no fairy dust you can sprinkle your servers for them to grow consciousness and start greeting each other like fish in the monty python's sketch, while also they coordinate updates among themselves. |
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| 09:08.03 | thunfisch | alright. was hoping that might be the case before i build something by myself. |
| 09:08.20 | thunfisch | will probably then setup a dedicated apt repo and some jenkins job + ansible that upgrades with coordination. |
| 09:09.10 | thunfisch | any experiences with nexus for apt repos? something where I could freeze a set of packages so that all machines have the same version would be great. |
| 09:09.13 | ratrace | thunfisch: you can serialize with ansible, no need to abstract with jenkins |
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| 09:10.39 | colo-work | we collect upgradable packages once a day across the fleet, and then (manually) review and curate a whitelist of packages to be upgraded. another job then iterates over all our hists, and applies whitelisted upgrades only. |
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| 09:10.51 | thunfisch | jenkins will just run ansible for us. we're a team of 10 people, so a central place to run stuff like that and keep logs is great. |
| 09:10.56 | colo-work | (under the hood, we use ssh, ansible, and moreutils' `parallel` to do that) |
| 09:11.04 | colo-work | works well enough for our ~120 machines |
| 09:11.06 | thunfisch | colo-work: yeah, had something like that in mind |
| 09:11.12 | thunfisch | we have to manage ~700 machines |
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| 09:11.31 | colo-work | I don't think that a factor of 5 matters much |
| 09:11.33 | ratrace | ansible is bad for 700 machines though, i'd seriously look into saltstack if i were you |
| 09:11.55 | plantroon | why? |
| 09:12.03 | thunfisch | why? ansible is working amazingly well. |
| 09:12.09 | plantroon | yep |
| 09:12.09 | ratrace | slow as hell |
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| 09:12.11 | thunfisch | also, team has knowledge of ansible |
| 09:12.18 | thunfisch | um, can't confirm |
| 09:12.26 | netcrash | jelly: busybox continues to say kernel 4.9 |
| 09:12.28 | plantroon | run it in parallel and it will go ok |
| 09:12.33 | ratrace | but if ansible works for you, fine, sure |
| 09:12.37 | thunfisch | just increase the tasks and you're good |
| 09:12.47 | thunfisch | and don't build stuff that blocks across hosts |
| 09:13.10 | ratrace | plantroon: i am but when you need to gather facts and coordinate among them, it's gonna be very, very, very slow. we switched from ansible to saltstack and couldn't be happier. |
| 09:13.45 | thunfisch | i don't know, full run with complete setup for monitoring, logging, applications, etc takes about 3 mins here |
| 09:13.50 | thunfisch | can't really complain about that. |
| 09:14.12 | thunfisch | of course a bit longer for new hosts when everything needs to be installed |
| 09:14.18 | thunfisch | then its more like 10 mins, but still fine for me |
| 09:14.35 | ratrace | if ansible works for you, that's perfectly fine. by your initial questions i didn't think you were running it |
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| 09:15.12 | thunfisch | well, we're migrating away from old infra with 1404 and puppet still. so i was looking at a new way to do upgrades and maybe have even more control so i was just exploring options |
| 09:15.39 | thunfisch | how I'm implementing them is imo specific to the project anyways, so I'm excluding stuff like ansible in such cases mostly. |
| 09:15.44 | ratrace | unattended upgrades is the very opposite of "more control". just ditch it and do it properly with active tasks from your automation |
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| 09:15.54 | thunfisch | yeah. |
| 09:16.28 | thunfisch | colo-work: how do you collect upgradable packages? just get a list of available upgrades directly on host, gather, dedup and whitelist? |
| 09:16.40 | fireba11 | hm .. tried unattended-upgrades a while back and it didn't do what i wanted, ended up using cron-apt for everything :-P |
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| 09:17.28 | fireba11 | i graduated from getting mails with available updates to automatically installing all updates a while ago with basically 0 issues |
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| 09:18.22 | EmleyMoor | When I try to do lvm fullreport (among other things), I get four errors: /dev/sd[j-m]: open failed: No medium found - how have these been picked up on and how do I get them "out of the way"? |
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| 09:18.31 | jelly | I've seen unattended-upgrades on ubuntu before it came back to debian and decided it was not to be trusted for an enterprise environment |
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| 09:19.06 | ratrace | ubuntu itself is not to be trusted for an enterprise environment |
| 09:19.26 | jelly | disagreed, but also offtopic |
| 09:19.34 | ratrace | not just plain trolling ; we have some ubuntu servers in our fleet and this latest mid-lts-release bump of openssl to 1.1.1. broke tons of stuff and not just for us |
| 09:19.56 | colo-work | thunfisch, pretty much like that, yes. |
| 09:20.00 | ratrace | not the first time either that a mid-lts-release breaks a ton of stuff ; agreed though, offtopic |
| 09:20.23 | colo-work | thunfisch, on each host, we execute apt-get -qq update; apt-get -qq --simulate dist-upgrade |
| 09:21.10 | thunfisch | colo-work: alright. I think i will rather go with a central nexus for apt mirroring an release control. i like the idea of having the exact same packages across all hosts. can then pick a canary group for upgrades first maybe. |
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| 09:21.27 | hiya | warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US.UTF-8) |
| 09:21.33 | hiya | I am getting warning on Debian 9 server ^ |
| 09:21.39 | colo-work | we have our own approx instances as a proxy for upstream apt repos |
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| 09:21.54 | colo-work | that's pretty much necessary for any nontrivial number of hosts that consume repos, i think |
| 09:22.03 | netcrash | jelly: I placed the kernel I'm using in the boot , now initramfs loads the device network but after 2 sec it gives on getting dhcp ip. and the boot fails |
| 09:22.13 | colo-work | but we don't "whitelist" packages and transfer them from upstream (debian) into repos of our own |
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| 09:23.18 | fireba11 | colo-work: what's a nontrivial number of hosts to you? :-D |
| 09:23.39 | colo-work | fireba11, for that purpose, more than two base-10 digits ;) |
| 09:24.06 | colo-work | (and with those hosts on the same LAN) |
| 09:24.12 | EmleyMoor | I also get similar errors for /dev/sdc on two other machines |
| 09:24.28 | fireba11 | colo-work: ah, we're at about 40 debian installations and the last time i was thinking about an apt proxy i decided not yet worth the effort :-D |
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| 09:25.07 | colo-work | approx is trivial to set up |
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| 09:25.35 | EmleyMoor | Make that one other... |
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| 09:26.40 | petererer | What's the apt proxy called that lets you do package staging? |
| 09:26.58 | petererer | It was mentioned here... about 2 months ago... and I forgot about it :( |
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| 09:29.12 | EmleyMoor | Hmmm... in my case it *could* be my card reader causing one of the errors... and as it doesn't work properly anyway, I will unplug it at next downtime. On the other machine(s) affected, one has a working built in card reader, the other has one in its mobile modem... so I'm treating this as "low nocuity" |
| 09:30.58 | thunfisch | petererer: oh, if there's something specialized i would be very interested |
| 09:31.42 | humpled | system rebooted itself, in syslog the last entry was 144 of "^@" on a line |
| 09:33.00 | EmleyMoor | Yes, that could be it, card readers |
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| 09:36.51 | EmleyMoor | I could "hot" unplug my desktop card reader but to do so runs the risk of pulling other wires |
| 09:38.13 | EmleyMoor | 6 slot card reader, 4 /dev/sd? ? (it could actually be only 3... I also have a desk SATA bay) |
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| 09:42.53 | netcrash | The kernel loads into initramfs, fails to set ipconfig ip because of timeout of 2secs , if I execute after that ipconfig on the interface it get's an ip |
| 09:42.54 | at0m | petererer: not apt-cacher-ng/acng ? |
| 09:43.05 | at0m | not sure about the staging |
| 09:46.08 | thunfisch | petererer: still waiting on feedback from a few colleagues, but nexus apt repository with snapshot feature seems to be perfect for this. |
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| 09:49.20 | EmleyMoor | When I plug my mobile phone into my desk/laptop I can choose to access its files. I can handle it in nautilus pretty much like any other storage. Is there anything I can do, without compromising that functionality, to access it from a shell too? |
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| 09:49.57 | EmleyMoor | (can it also be done over Bluetooth? My laptop is equipped) |
| 09:50.33 | emOne | is there a debian server irc channel? |
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| 09:52.10 | EmleyMoor | emOne, you mean one specifically to discuss using Debian in a server environment? |
| 09:52.22 | emOne | yes |
| 09:52.38 | EmleyMoor | emOne, not that I know... |
| 09:52.50 | EmleyMoor | You can of course use the general channel |
| 09:53.17 | emOne | cool cool :) |
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| 09:58.10 | ratrace | netcrash: but what is invoking network in initramfs? where is that configured? |
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| 10:00.12 | at0m | EmleyMoor: sure can be done over BT if you enable file sharing on the phone. fwiw, i found kdeconnect most convenient (wifi, bt) |
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| 10:00.56 | fireba11 | colo-work: you're right ... seems really easy. what i could use more is a windows update proxy, but those are "!$%"§$% software so i don't feel motivated setting one up *g* |
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| 10:08.19 | EmleyMoor | at0m, my question is what to do for it *on Debian*, not on the phone |
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| 10:18.56 | otyugh | I was quite sure being read that the debian project wouldn't support officially the "upgrade an oldstable to stable" and promote the fresh install ; but I can't find confirmation anywhere. Did I imagined that fact ? (I need to apologize to some people if that's so :-s) |
| 10:20.37 | ratrace | otyugh: it's very much supported: https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html |
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| 10:21.19 | otyugh | godammit |
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| 10:26.00 | Lirion | about that staging stuff... nexus is not free to use, is it? and apt-cacher ng has this nasty https incability - i mean, i don't want to break pfs, but can it talk _and_ be talked to through https? and then it still doesn't have staging. |
| 10:26.19 | Lirion | I'm thinking out loud b/c I'd be very curious about something that works and is (f)OSS |
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| 10:28.22 | fireba11 | otyugh: what you probably should avoid is skipping versions :-P |
| 10:29.07 | otyugh | I just don't know why I was so very conviced >.< |
| 10:29.26 | otyugh | Maybe because I personnaly never wanted to do the upgrades, I always prefered fresh installs >.< |
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| 11:13.31 | Haohmaru | ,v codeblocks |
| 11:13.32 | judd | Package: codeblocks on amd64 -- stretch: 16.01+dfsg-2+b1; bullseye: 16.01+dfsg-2.1; buster: 16.01+dfsg-2.1; sid: 16.01+dfsg-2.1 |
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| 11:25.47 | andre144k | hi, how to insert into file a new line on "first" line via sed? |
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| 11:27.18 | Habbie | andre144k, sed -e '1 i insert this' |
| 11:28.13 | humpled | firefox-esr - Killed, df -h - Killed, ls - lists!, sudo -i - Killed. What's going on? |
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| 11:29.04 | Haohmaru | a mass murder it seems |
| 11:29.26 | humpled | then everything locks :| |
| 11:29.54 | Haohmaru | <muh-muh-muh-muh-mONSTER_KILL__kill__kill.wav> |
| 11:30.48 | humpled | debian 9 xfce, last upgrade was java stuff and before that libreoffice i think |
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| 11:32.24 | andre144k | Habbie, thx |
| 11:35.19 | humpled | on reboot no partitions are full, temperature normal, syslog contains "Oops: 0002 [#10] SMP" |
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| 11:37.07 | ratrace | u been hacked! |
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| 11:38.29 | humpled | EEK |
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| 11:46.05 | ni291187 | hello every one |
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| 11:46.24 | ni291187 | hello everyone |
| 11:47.48 | ni291187 | hello |
| 11:47.55 | alkisg | Hello |
| 11:48.00 | ni291187 | nickname raven |
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| 11:48.16 | ni291187 | Iâm from shanghai |
| 11:48.53 | ni291187 | and u? |
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| 11:51.37 | humpled | firefox crashing on startup in -safe-mode :| |
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| 11:52.19 | gidna | Hello |
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| 11:53.17 | gidna | I've installed debian but I get bash: fdisk: command not found even if fdisk is already the newest version (2.33.1-0.1). |
| 11:53.38 | colo-work | are you root? |
| 11:53.45 | gidna | colo-work, yes |
| 11:53.53 | colo-work | fdisk is probably not in an unprivilieged user's path |
| 11:54.22 | colo-work | dpkg -L fdisk | fgrep bin |
| 11:54.22 | dpkg | ii fdisk | fgrep bin 2.9-11.2 ultra s3kr1t #debian package |
| 11:54.28 | colo-work | does this yield anything? |
| 11:54.31 | colo-work | sorry, dpkg :X |
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| 11:54.51 | gidna | colo-work, but I am root |
| 11:55.11 | humpled | !buster root |
| 11:55.16 | humpled | hmmmm |
| 11:55.17 | colo-work | gidna, it _could_ depend on how you elevated to root |
| 11:55.23 | gidna | /sbin/fdisk |
| 11:55.32 | colo-work | so /sbin/'s not in your path |
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| 11:55.36 | colo-work | how did you become root? |
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| 11:55.42 | colo-work | using `su`? |
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| 11:55.48 | gidna | with su root in a terminal |
| 11:55.49 | colo-work | if so, use `sudo -i` instead |
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| 11:56.02 | alkisg | Or `su -`, with a dash |
| 11:56.40 | gidna | why Is that? |
| 11:56.51 | colo-work | new `su` implementaion in buster, afair |
| 11:57.02 | FinalX | su -kl (or su - for short) gives you a login shell instead of a shell with your own environment. as if you logged in as root itself. |
| 11:57.08 | FinalX | su -l* |
| 11:57.11 | FinalX | same goes for sudo -i |
| 11:57.53 | FinalX | as opposed to su -m/su -p, where you keep your own. |
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| 11:58.43 | gidna | ok so when I want to install a program have I to: su - or sudo -i apt-get install ... ^ |
| 11:58.44 | gidna | ? |
| 11:59.05 | alkisg | apt is in /usr/bin, not in sbin |
| 11:59.09 | colo-work | sudo apt-get install ... |
| 11:59.11 | colo-work | is enough |
| 11:59.28 | colo-work | `sudo -i` = "give me an interactive root shell" |
| 11:59.32 | gidna | but I get gidna is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported. |
| 11:59.50 | colo-work | then set yourself up to be :) |
| 12:00.27 | humpled | if you have a root password, use "su -", if you are a sudoer use "sudo -i" |
| 12:00.29 | FinalX | well if you just want sbin in your path to be able to execute those, you can just do that by putting it in your own |
| 12:00.30 | gidna | I coming from a different distribution so it is a new environment for me... |
| 12:00.37 | gidna | *I'm |
| 12:00.39 | FinalX | and you can just do sudo apt update, etc. |
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| 12:01.00 | FinalX | a lot of things don't care about your ENV, it's usually you that does ($PATH, $HOME, etc) |
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| 12:02.18 | gidna | How can I update the list of sudoers? |
| 12:02.45 | FinalX | visudo |
| 12:03.12 | alkisg | su - -c 'gpasswd -a gidna sudo' |
| 12:03.23 | alkisg | where gidna is the username you want to add to the sudo group |
| 12:03.31 | FinalX | if that's the way you want to do it |
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| 12:03.56 | FinalX | but be extremely careful, that person will then be able to do everything as root |
| 12:04.04 | FinalX | sudo can bee configured to only allow certain things for certain users, too |
| 12:04.13 | gidna | in visudo there's written : Please consider adding local content in /etc/sudoers.d/ instead of here |
| 12:04.36 | FinalX | then that's probably a good idea :) |
| 12:05.13 | ratrace | gidna: you don't need to edit the sudoers file, just add your user to the sudo group |
| 12:06.47 | themill | "adduser your_username sudo" |
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| 12:07.20 | gidna | ok thanks |
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| 12:12.58 | emOne | Debian Server vs Ubuntu Server |
| 12:13.00 | emOne | ROUND 1 |
| 12:13.01 | emOne | FIGHT |
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| 12:19.59 | trek00 | emOne: who won? :) |
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| 12:20.37 | emOne | trek00: I would also like to know |
| 12:20.45 | emOne | ha |
| 12:20.46 | trek00 | :) |
| 12:21.21 | pyfgcr | emOne: which are the criteria to decide the winner? :) |
| 12:22.36 | emOne | It is a freestyle cage fight. Anything goes. No biting. No punches below the blt |
| 12:22.47 | emOne | Who wins? |
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| 12:22.50 | emOne | :) |
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| 12:23.07 | trek00 | scripting is allowed? :D |
| 12:23.18 | emOne | yes lol |
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| 12:23.39 | ratrace | debian wins, always |
| 12:24.51 | trek00 | emOne: debian can breaks ubuntu packages, but ubuntu can't :) |
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| 12:25.22 | emOne | that's a good point... |
| 12:25.30 | emOne | debian 1 : ubuntu 0 |
| 12:25.36 | emOne | ROUND 2 |
| 12:25.36 | trek00 | :D |
| 12:25.38 | emOne | FIGHT |
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| 12:26.10 | ratrace | inb4 yous get shoved into #debian-offtopic |
| 12:26.34 | emOne | from #ubuntu-server IRC "depends on what u r running. debian packages are often very old" |
| 12:26.40 | emOne | debian 1 : ubuntu 1 |
| 12:26.52 | FinalX | They alternate releases. |
| 12:26.59 | FinalX | I don't see the point of this. |
| 12:27.04 | emOne | hehe |
| 12:27.11 | emOne | just a bit of fun FinalX |
| 12:27.14 | FinalX | We run both, maintain both the same way through Puppet.. |
| 12:27.18 | emOne | I am trying to decide what distro to choose ;) |
| 12:27.29 | Habbie | emOne, choose debian |
| 12:27.46 | themill | /dev/null is a good sink for noise in both distros. |
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| 12:28.34 | emOne | Habbie: I think I am going with ubuntu, simply because some web panel works with it better |
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| 12:28.40 | Habbie | emOne, good luck |
| 12:28.41 | FinalX | Whatt do you want it for? Desktop, server? Debian waits a long time till everything is "done" and ditches perfectly good things that people still want/use while Ubuntu does their best to try and keep it. Meanwhile, Ubuntu pushes out LTS's long before they're actually stable, and about half a year later it's really stable and LTS :P |
| 12:28.44 | emOne | but I do like debian for the stability |
| 12:29.09 | pyfgcr | everything is fine on ubuntu, until you hit a dist upgrade and "15674 packages can be upgraded", one breaks everything and you have no clue which it is. |
| 12:29.11 | Habbie | FinalX, but ubuntu does not promise security updates for most of those things they keep :) |
| 12:29.17 | FinalX | But software-wise: Ubuntu 16.04, year later: Debian release, 18.04: Year later, Debian release, and so on. |
| 12:29.20 | pyfgcr | this also applies to debian stable thoigh |
| 12:29.37 | Habbie | pyfgcr, don't randomly upgrade your OS ,goes for any OS |
| 12:29.54 | FinalX | Well, you could upgrade to the non-LTS versions of Ubuntu, or run Debian testing. Neither I would recommend on production servers, but hey /shrug |
| 12:29.56 | pyfgcr | Habbie: uh? |
| 12:30.04 | alkisg | wishes both distros would freeze at the same time every two years, and then each of them would "release when it's ready"; it would allow developers to test one version for both distros... |
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| 12:30.08 | FinalX | We use both mixed for various reasons. LXD, MySQL 5.5 .. |
| 12:30.18 | humpled | are these people pros? |
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| 12:30.35 | FinalX | and KVM in 16.04 was newer than in Debian at the time, so kvmhosts ran Ubuntu ;) |
| 12:30.43 | pyfgcr | not randomly, but eventually any non-rolling distro will reach end of life |
| 12:31.02 | FinalX | Meanwhile I run Windows 10 on my laptop, sue me ;) I use whatever is best for the task at hand and stopped caring about a lot of random noise a long time ago. |
| 12:31.18 | ratrace | i try ubuntu in a vm every six months to see what new thing they've invented as ubuntu-only unnedeeded abstraction; and every time i find myself in enemy territory, clueless, thinking "is this even based on any linux at all" |
| 12:31.39 | FinalX | And then next Debian release, they adapted it :p |
| 12:31.50 | trek00 | emOne: I think you should try both and pick up the one which the best for each situation |
| 12:31.57 | ratrace | well i don't see default snaps or netplan in buster, do you? :) |
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| 12:32.16 | FinalX | We use Ubuntu on a small number of servers, precisely for that reason.. they often hurt less to upgrade, we run into new things, work them into Puppet for when we get the next Debian :P |
| 12:32.29 | alkisg | snaps and netplan and the other experiments will probably make a lot of ubuntu users switch to debian.. |
| 12:32.29 | Habbie | pyfgcr, main, universe, multiverse |
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| 12:32.37 | FinalX | I'm quite happy with netplan. |
| 12:32.46 | FinalX | And snap is there, maybe not a default one installed, but still. |
| 12:33.10 | FinalX | LXC 2 => LXC 3 migration in Debian was hell on earth. LXC 2 => LXD 2 => LXD 3 on Ubuntu was a walk in the park. |
| 12:33.13 | ratrace | FinalX: netplan is just yaml that gets converted into networkd stanzas; why is that needed at all |
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| 12:33.24 | alkisg | Netplan broke a lot of installations; chromium-browser will be packaged as snap-only; etc etc, it's getting chaotic... |
| 12:33.28 | FinalX | It's really nice to have everything neatly in one place. |
| 12:33.40 | pyfgcr | Habbie: I still don't get the meaning of your previous message |
| 12:33.42 | allan_wind | Hi guys, after the buster upgrade, I have these events in syslog "packagekit.service: Main process exited, code=killed, status=15/TERM".... any ideas? |
| 12:33.43 | FinalX | In one overview. |
| 12:33.46 | ratrace | one place like /etc/network/interfaces ? |
| 12:34.04 | ratrace | or /etc/systemd/network/ if one prefers that |
| 12:34.05 | FinalX | That's definitely not having everything neatly in one place. |
| 12:34.08 | Habbie | pyfgcr, debian has a policy of shipping security patches for all the software; ubuntu only makes that promise for main |
| 12:34.12 | FinalX | Nor that. |
| 12:34.21 | ratrace | pretty sure it is |
| 12:34.26 | FinalX | No, it really is not. |
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| 12:34.36 | Habbie | pyfgcr, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ |
| 12:34.37 | humpled | hmm |
| 12:35.32 | ratrace | FinalX: where else is the network config then? |
| 12:35.45 | FinalX | I love how there's always some people that just love to lash out and bash things they haven't really used or even looked at, just because it's new. I have a few coworkers like that, it's very tiresome. Changes come, it's part of your job and life. Some are good, some aren't, but keep an open mind and test things yourself before judging something you haven't but just "don't like because it was forced upon me". |
| 12:35.45 | pyfgcr | Habbie: was it an answer to "everything is fine on ubuntu"? |
| 12:35.57 | FinalX | ratrace: netplan.io, go |
| 12:36.07 | Habbie | pyfgcr, no, "don't randomly upgrade your OS" was a response to that |
| 12:36.19 | ooAoo | may i know are we able to recover our system by copying the hdd if we lost the grub2 password? |
| 12:36.23 | trek00 | allan_wind: are you using the pacakgekit service? (something to update packages) |
| 12:36.24 | ratrace | FinalX: i've not only looked into that, i've looked into the source code as well ; it does nothing on itself, only converts yaml to networkd. |
| 12:36.36 | FinalX | Then you tell me where you'd put a lot of those things, and don't come to me with "I can run an up-script from /etc/network/interfaces", because that's simply *NOT* done from there, then. |
| 12:36.41 | ratrace | and networkmanager, but i'm not concerned about desktop |
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| 12:37.02 | ratrace | FinalX: i already told you, /etc/systemd/networkd/ both .network and .link units are there |
| 12:37.05 | FinalX | And reverting changes when a config breaks and your network goes down because you made an oops, doesn't work with that either. |
| 12:37.05 | emOne | FIGHT RESULTS Debian server vs Ubuntu server = DRAW |
| 12:37.12 | FinalX | Source/destination routing not either. |
| 12:37.15 | ratrace | FinalX: btw netplan doesn't support ifupdown style scripts |
| 12:37.20 | FinalX | Yes, but that's not all netplan does. |
| 12:37.29 | trek00 | ooAoo: are the filesystem encrypted? |
| 12:37.38 | ratrace | yes it is. it ONLY does that, nothing else, sets up networkd units |
| 12:37.44 | FinalX | Oh, so you're bringing in completely unrelated arguments to your original objection to it now? |
| 12:37.56 | allan_wind | trek00: automatically installed, I guess, let me just remove it |
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| 12:38.08 | pyfgcr | Habbie: you don't "randomly" upgrade, you usually upgrade when your current LTS release reaches eol. |
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| 12:38.13 | ratrace | FinalX: no, you brought "up-script from /etc/network/interfaces" first |
| 12:38.22 | Habbie | pyfgcr, nevermind |
| 12:38.23 | trek00 | allan_wind: if you don't use it, then remove it and done |
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| 12:38.34 | allan_wind | trek00: already done |
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| 12:39.12 | FinalX | ratrace: Because you can't do many things in /etc/network/interfaces (that YOU brought up first) *WITHOUT* an up-script, or praying that shit might work instead of verifiably working, as with netplan. |
| 12:39.22 | trek00 | allan_wind: it should be a bug, but I don't know the package |
| 12:39.43 | FinalX | And seperating things into /etc/network/interfaces and /etc/systemd/network is precisely why netplan exists. To unify everything network-related. |
| 12:39.45 | ratrace | FinalX: but netplan doesn't DO anything like ifupdown does, it ONLY LITERALLY ONLY configures networkd units, which you can do directly, that's my whole point |
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| 12:39.51 | pyfgcr | Habbie: ok, I was just trying to understand your point |
| 12:40.00 | alkisg | FinalX: actually netplan was breaking network booting from me, because they put code in initramfs-tools that had bugs (e.g. LP #1763608); I wouldn't complain if I didn't have to spend 50 hours in the last two years trying to fix breakage because of netplan, snapd etc.. |
| 12:40.00 | alkisg | Innovation is great, but they should always be a migration period where things don't break a lot until the new package gets adopted by most of the users |
| 12:40.08 | FinalX | ratrace: Stop trying to validate your own bitterness to people, it's just plain sad. |
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| 12:40.24 | trek00 | ooAoo: raw copying the hdd should let you to backup the filesystem, but not to reboot; you need to reinstall grub to recover the boot process |
| 12:40.24 | ratrace | FinalX: it's a C program that takes a yaml file and produces systemd-networkd units under /run/systemd/network/ |
| 12:40.37 | ratrace | only that and nothing more |
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| 12:49.00 | humpled | yay it stopped |
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| 12:50.28 | rpifan | Man my system got hosed. I updated it. It went to hibernation mode. Got stuck now everytime i try to boot it gets stuck at initramfs. Saying resuming from hibernation then logsafe not found |
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| 12:53.00 | ratrace | rpifan: that's unstable right? |
| 12:53.35 | Unit193 | #932861 |
| 12:53.36 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/932861 in e2fsprogs (open): «boot failure because e2fsprogs should depend on logsave»; severity: critical; opened: 2019-07-24; last modified: 2019-07-24. |
| 12:53.59 | ratrace | that's the bug i was thinking of yea |
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| 12:57.17 | lope | does bcache get used much in production? |
| 12:57.33 | lope | I'm trying to figure out whether to entrust it with my data |
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| 13:01.42 | ratrace | lope: it has had some serious data corrupting bugs lately |
| 13:02.03 | lope | ratrace, I'm not referring to bcachefs |
| 13:02.09 | lope | ratrace, I'm referring to bcache |
| 13:02.19 | lope | the homepage of bcache says "bcache is done and stable" |
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| 13:03.10 | ratrace | lope: yes, bcache ; this is the latest kerfuffle: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=BCache-Corruption-Linux-5 |
| 13:03.31 | ratrace | before that 4.19 had one, and before that 4.14 had one massive data eating fiesta |
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| 13:04.51 | lope | ratrace, oh shit. Pity. I used it a few years ago. It was reliable and hellishly fast |
| 13:05.22 | lope | Check this out |
| 13:05.22 | lope | http://www.ha-guru.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/read-scalability.png |
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| 13:05.39 | lope | I'm preparing a new setup and was considering running zfs ontop of bcache |
| 13:05.59 | lope | a mirror zpool over a pair of bcache setups |
| 13:06.00 | ratrace | eh no benefit over ssd? |
| 13:06.11 | lope | ratrace, that's amazing performance |
| 13:06.12 | ratrace | lope: uhhhh why would you do that, zfs has arc |
| 13:06.27 | lope | bcache delivers SSD class performance at the capacity of a larger hard drive |
| 13:06.32 | lope | that's the whole point of bcache |
| 13:06.49 | lope | L2ARC has very limited usefulness |
| 13:06.55 | ratrace | it's literally the same thing |
| 13:07.03 | lope | it's not in any way comparable to bcache |
| 13:07.41 | lope | on bcache, if you write data, the SSD takes it. If you read data again immediately, the SSD supplies it, thus SSD speed on bcache. |
| 13:08.05 | ratrace | that's what L2ARC does too |
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| 13:08.21 | lope | On ZFS, you write data, it goes into the SSD, you read data, you wait... now the zpool writes the data out to the hard disk, you still wait. now the zpool reads the data back from the HDD, now you can have the data |
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| 13:08.57 | lope | the ZFS guys say that there's no performance gain from using L2ARC |
| 13:08.58 | ratrace | you forgot ARC, it hits ARC first |
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| 13:09.10 | lope | ARC only applies if the data is not fresh |
| 13:09.23 | lope | ARC caches repetetive reads |
| 13:09.35 | ratrace | it has a number of caches, MFU is just one of them |
| 13:09.42 | lope | if it's freshly written data you have to wait for a HDD round trip, which is slow |
| 13:09.55 | lope | that's why you see those performance numbers: http://www.ha-guru.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/read-scalability.png |
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| 13:10.08 | lope | if ZFS was so performant, nobody would use bcache. |
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| 13:11.20 | ratrace | i don't know anyone using bacache and a numer of tech industry leading companies using zfs; which bts is the filesystem in world's most used NAS solution |
| 13:11.33 | ratrace | %s/bts/btw/ |
| 13:11.46 | lope | yeah ZFS is extremely reliable |
| 13:11.49 | lope | no question about that. |
| 13:11.53 | ratrace | but anyway ; what you're describing is just the difference between write-through and write-back caching modes |
| 13:12.11 | lope | anywaym bcache performs better, that's a given. |
| 13:12.16 | lope | The problem is it eating data. |
| 13:12.34 | lope | the episodes you describe are disconcerting. |
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| 13:12.55 | lope | I was thinking of running a pair of bcache devices with a simple ZFS mirror over them |
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| 13:13.33 | lope | Actually it would make sense if I could somehow run different kernel versions for each bcache instance. |
| 13:13.39 | lope | so that I upgrade one at a time. |
| 13:13.58 | lope | That way if bcache bugs emerge, it doesn't hose my zpool completely |
| 13:14.09 | lope | only one half of the mirror would break. |
| 13:14.30 | lope | But I'd need to share the bcache device via nbd through qemu or something |
| 13:14.51 | lope | and that would hurt performance. Plus the performance impact of virt IO |
| 13:14.59 | lope | simpler to just run ZFS |
| 13:15.27 | ratrace | i'd recommend you try both ; you'd be surprised how performant zfs l2 is ; i don't know who fed you lies about l2 not speeding anything, but it's literally it's only job and it's doing it very well |
| 13:15.28 | lope | I think the only way I'd run bcache is in a multi-node ceph |
| 13:17.02 | ratrace | then again .... my experience is zfs on freebsd ; i don't have much of experience with zfs on linux; their issue tracker is a very scary place ; we have one debian+zfs server in production but that's a backup of a backup and it's simple, no L2 stuff |
| 13:17.07 | lope | ratrace, guys on #zfsonlinux basically said: for VM's and DB's 1. l2arc is pointless. 2. the best caching is inside the VM's themselves (whatever that means). 3. Throw lots of RAM at ZFS and make use of large L1ARC |
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| 13:17.33 | ratrace | i suppose then the linux variant is like that |
| 13:17.49 | lope | I've got 2x 3.6TiB drives and 2x 210GiB partitions free |
| 13:17.56 | lope | SSD partitions |
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| 13:18.06 | lope | How would you suggest I size the log cache and L2ARC? |
| 13:18.12 | ratrace | i mean if they said it ; on freebsd it performs very, very well ; we have a file server that once primed up, doesn't touch HDDs at all except an occasional write |
| 13:18.15 | lope | They said having a log bigger than 1GiB is pointless. |
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| 13:18.34 | ratrace | lope: SLOG != L2ARC |
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| 13:18.49 | lope | I know, log is sync writes, cache is read |
| 13:18.57 | ratrace | I could agree, a few GB is more than enough, that's just to catch a write storm before it's synced to hdd |
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| 13:19.11 | lope | I'm asking for your recommendations for sizing the log and cache? |
| 13:19.20 | ratrace | that depends on your use case |
| 13:19.39 | ratrace | and don't forget that L2 needs RAM to back up the page indexes |
| 13:19.41 | lope | VM's with all sorts of applications, and some DB's |
| 13:19.57 | lope | yes |
| 13:19.59 | ratrace | AND ... i could say my only gripe with L2 is that reboot invalidates it all.... dunno if bcache works like that |
| 13:20.13 | lope | bcache doesn't use RAM |
| 13:20.29 | lope | bcache is designed to work exactly the same if you pull out the power cord |
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| 13:20.37 | Pymous | Hello there ! |
| 13:20.39 | ratrace | that's cool then |
| 13:20.41 | lope | the cache is on the SSD regardless |
| 13:21.00 | Pymous | I'm fairly new to Alsa and stuff, and I'm trying to have an external USB sound card to have a specific name |
| 13:21.06 | lope | Yeah that's why I like bcache. I WISH I could run it |
| 13:21.11 | Pymous | It seems I need to use Alsa, but I'm not familiar with it |
| 13:21.14 | ratrace | lope: about the sizes, I'd go for having hot data fit into L2, and how much that is, really depends on your use case |
| 13:21.14 | lope | I'm just not confident about it eating my data |
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| 13:21.17 | humpled | yay live usb crashed with firefox |
| 13:21.47 | ratrace | lope: in my experience we have a 512G SSD dedicated to L2, there's some ~300GB on it in use, and it works peachy |
| 13:22.09 | lope | humpled, probably a hardware issue, I've used live OS's extensively, for days at a time to do useful work. They work well. |
| 13:22.39 | lope | ratrace, wow, that's pretty big, how big id your HDD part? |
| 13:22.42 | lope | is* |
| 13:22.43 | ratrace | lope: well, these bugs didn't affect debian stable kernels methinks, 4.14, 4.19, 5.0 ; so you should be good? |
| 13:23.11 | ratrace | lope: 6x4TB raidz2 |
| 13:23.34 | lope | ratrace, what workload does your data do? |
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| 13:23.48 | ratrace | lope: you should always keep good backups anyway ; even zfs has had some data eating bugs lately ; one of which even affected our gentoo systems ; backups ftw |
| 13:23.49 | lope | ratrace, the only way I'd be comfortable is to have my data on different kernels |
| 13:24.17 | ratrace | lope: file server for a mobile application |
| 13:24.38 | lope | So I'd have to run one side of my bcache pair inside a VM or on another machine, mounted over NBD |
| 13:24.58 | lope | or just have a single bcache on each machine with ceph on top |
| 13:25.50 | lope | either way it's all very complicated. And I just need to get something running quickly right now |
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| 13:26.03 | lope | so I'm going to go with plain ZFS with SSD log and cache |
| 13:26.26 | lope | ratrace, wow, that's disconcerting haha |
| 13:26.29 | ratrace | do you need SLOG? do you have write intensive loads? |
| 13:26.50 | lope | ratrace, I really don't know specifics about my workloads |
| 13:26.57 | lope | I run VMs and there are some DB's |
| 13:27.02 | ratrace | lope: yea thankfully that's just a testing server so no big deal even if it blew up |
| 13:27.03 | lope | it's all general purpose |
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| 13:27.32 | lope | surely zfs goes through validation before it goes to stable releases? |
| 13:27.43 | lope | just like bcache? |
| 13:27.47 | ratrace | lope: note that SLOG is only useful to offer ssd-like write performance for bursty activity ; the data needs to sync up to slower hdds anyway |
| 13:28.19 | lope | oh, I just had an idea. I don't know if this makes sense |
| 13:28.38 | lope | What if I run a pair of bcache with zfs on top, and before upgrading bcache or the kernel I change the cache mode to write through |
| 13:28.47 | lope | so there's zero risk of bcache corrupting anything |
| 13:28.51 | ratrace | lope: define "stable" releases ; debian? yeah i suppose so ; but upstream? the issue was on 0.7.x "considered stable" branch, not even the-then-experimental 0.8.x |
| 13:29.20 | lope | hmm, it's still messy, because then how do I upgrade safely :/ |
| 13:29.27 | ratrace | lope: i think you're overthinking somethign that should be solved with good backups anyway |
| 13:29.42 | lope | ratrace, funny you mention backups. |
| 13:29.55 | lope | ratrace, so the idea I've been most keen on is to split my 4TB disks in half |
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| 13:30.04 | lope | run bcache with ZFS on the first half of both disks |
| 13:30.11 | lope | then run zfs on the 2nd half of both disks |
| 13:30.21 | lope | do my backups to the zfs that's directly on the disks. |
| 13:30.47 | lope | I could even run the zfs on the 2nd part of the disks inside a VM that runs an older kernel for safety. |
| 13:30.54 | ratrace | just.... no. i don't know about zfs on linux but on freebsd multiple pools on the same drive are gonna fight for iops |
| 13:31.19 | lope | ratrace, I'm aware of the iops issue, I would schedule the backups to run at night |
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| 13:31.46 | lope | And with VM's data doesn't change that drastically day to day. zfs backups with snapshots are incremental, not too large |
| 13:31.58 | ratrace | those are hardly backups, just use zfs' send-receive mechanism to send the snapshot diffs to another machine somewhere |
| 13:32.24 | lope | Can do |
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| 13:32.44 | lope | I intend to have off-machine backups as well |
| 13:33.02 | lope | I was just thinking to keep backups on the same machine, to speed up the ability to fix anything if there is a problem. |
| 13:33.11 | ratrace | we're evaluating btrfs though ; zfs is awesome on freebsd ; scary on linux and the license is a meh which makes its use in certain rented-hardware situations very painful |
| 13:33.55 | lope | actually the HDD split idea is crap, from an IOPS perspective. |
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| 13:34.39 | lope | it also means the system can't keep running and be shut down gracefully if a problem emerges with any of 1. kernel, 2. ZFS, 3. Bcache |
| 13:35.18 | lope | The most reliable setup I imagine is to run a VM that owns the 2nd hard drive and SSD, then runs bcache and exposes it via NBD |
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| 13:35.47 | lope | that protects me against bcache issues, but not ZFS |
| 13:35.56 | ratrace | the most reliable setup is teh one with least layers of abstraction |
| 13:36.04 | lope | yeah |
| 13:36.14 | lope | For sure |
| 13:36.19 | ratrace | so just stick 'em all on SSDs and be done? |
| 13:36.31 | lope | ratrace, one day when budget allows |
| 13:36.39 | lope | So getting back to sizing of log and cache |
| 13:36.46 | lope | My log will be 1GiB |
| 13:36.56 | lope | then cache? you've made yours as big as possible? |
| 13:37.02 | lope | basically |
| 13:37.06 | ratrace | i think you should re-do the budget equation and include time==money variable, for all these levels of abstraction you're considering :) |
| 13:37.17 | lope | you said you've got 300G in your 512G log cache device |
| 13:37.25 | lope | how much of that cache is actually being used regularly? |
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| 13:37.44 | ratrace | 300G, out of few TB in total ; like i said that's hot data |
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| 13:37.58 | lope | can you see how hot it is? |
| 13:38.14 | ratrace | ? |
| 13:38.16 | lope | do the blocks have a hit count? |
| 13:38.57 | ratrace | there's a detailed statistics output but i'm not logged into that part of the system right now |
| 13:39.06 | ratrace | actually lemme check |
| 13:39.11 | lope | okay |
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| 13:40.05 | ratrace | yea i can't run zfs-stats at the moment because it'd have to go through our salt stack which is currently being offline for testing |
| 13:40.57 | ratrace | anyway it's not block level hit count but various caches hit and miss ratios, as produced by the zfs-stats script |
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| 13:50.33 | lope | ok |
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| 13:55.17 | ooAoo | trek00: i can recover my data even though thhe system got grub2 prottected? |
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| 13:56.08 | trek00 | ooAoo: yes, you can just mount it from a live usb stick, or attaching the hdd to another system |
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| 13:58.05 | carp_ | Hi, I upgraded to Buster and now when I lock my computer, my screen doesnt wake up again. I noticed during the Buster upgrade that the fonts went buggy. Also when I open firefox now, there is a graphical glitch momentarily. Has anyone else had this? |
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| 14:00.11 | trek00 | carp_: may be something related to graphics drivers? which card you have? |
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| 14:02.35 | carp_ | trek00 Its nvidia , system says NVE7 and I will try to check the exact model right now... |
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| 14:03.13 | trek00 | carp_: have you installed nvidia non-free drivers or are you running with nuveau? |
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| 14:05.02 | trek00 | !dpkg nvidia |
| 14:05.03 | dpkg | Where possible, Nvidia graphic processing units are supported using the open source <nouveau> driver on Debian systems by default. To install the proprietary "nvidia" driver, see https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers or ask me about <nvidia dkms>, <nvidia legacy>; installing this directly from nvidia.com (i.e. with <nvidia-installer>) is _not_ supported in #debian, please go to #nvidia on irc.freenode.net. |
| 14:05.39 | trek00 | carp_: see that page to install nvidia non-free drivers |
| 14:06.19 | ooAoo | trek00: which encryption techniqque should i use for filesystem? |
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| 14:07.26 | carp_ | trek00 I have not installed nvidia non-free drivers. I have kept the computer fully free open source. Strongly hoping to keep the system as close to default and fully free open source if possible. |
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| 14:07.54 | trek00 | ooAoo: there are many types, it depends if you want all encrypted or only some directories/files, but if you lost the password/key you any data will be lost |
| 14:08.35 | ooAoo | trek00: do you think auto mount encrypted disk is a risk on bootup? |
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| 14:09.17 | trek00 | carp_: I like too having all opensource, but if you have graphicals problems you should try to report them or install non-free drivers |
| 14:10.17 | trek00 | ooAoo: when encrypting something if you lose the password you can access no more to your data, it's not simple to restore like the lost password with grub |
| 14:10.46 | carp_ | trek00 right, thanks for the tips. I will look into this further. |
| 14:11.04 | ooAoo | trek00: ok |
| 14:11.46 | trek00 | carp_: intel/amd graphics cards are really usable with free drivers, instead for nvidia it really depends if the chipset support is in good shape in the free nuveau drivers |
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| 14:13.23 | carp_ | trek00 right. Strange that it worked on jessie and stretch but has now stopped? orI suppose things like this happen from time to time. |
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| 14:16.12 | trek00 | carp_: I can't really help you, debugging graphics drivers is not simple and I don't have the same hardware |
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| 14:16.54 | carp_ | trek00 no problem, already been very helpful cheers. |
| 14:17.01 | trek00 | :) |
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| 14:19.15 | trek00 | carp_: installing the nvidia non-free drivers will help you to understand if it is a gpu driver problem |
| 14:19.27 | trek00 | carp_: or if it is something else |
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| 14:22.28 | carp_ | trek00 right. I will have to learn how to use this computer properly so may as well try to do that. (im a windows user, have been using debian instead for a couple of years but only the very basic default setup and i have simply avoided downloading anything or moving my files over still). |
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| 14:42.20 | uRock | wonders what y'all breaking today. |
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| 14:44.21 | humpled | urock i've just got random reboots and i don't think any software can fix that |
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| 14:46.54 | wwilly_ | hi, is /etc/network/interfaces still used in buster? |
| 14:47.23 | greycat | yes |
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| 14:49.16 | taqion | hello |
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| 14:50.11 | uRock | humpled, lol, that depends on what's causing the reboots. |
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| 14:50.44 | greycat | I upgraded one server to buster. Did the network interface name migration first. No problems so far. |
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| 14:51.48 | Haohmaru | <success.jpg> |
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| 14:54.18 | uRock | greycat, no fun in no breakage, but there does come a time when one gets tired of breakage. |
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| 15:03.35 | _2E0LNX | I've upgraded my zoneminder box to buster, and now it's not playing nice. Looks like there's an issue with php's mysql extension... Where to start poking to fix? |
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| 15:13.11 | elm_ | I have put the software at www.elstel.org under GPLv3, wanna re-upload existing packages to mentors and find a sponsor. |
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| 15:13.32 | elm_ | the only RFP bug I have found is the following: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=721447 |
| 15:13.33 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/721447 in wnpp (open): «RFP: xchroot -- extended chroot with X11/Xorg forwarding»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2013-08-31; last modified: 2015-12-26. |
| 15:13.56 | elm_ | should I refile ITP & RFS bugs? |
| 15:14.28 | elm_ | I guess that would at least be necessary for the other software as I can neither find ITP nor RFP bugs for it any more |
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| 15:22.40 | charking | Hello. I want to report a bug for a package in Buster, but there is already a bug for the same problem in Stretch marked unreproducible. Should I create a new bug report, or use the existing bug report? |
| 15:23.08 | charking | Different version of same software between Buster and Stretch. |
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| 15:23.14 | greycat | Same bug report is best. |
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| 15:23.24 | charking | OK, thx |
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| 15:26.03 | wwilly__ | ok, network interface is working, a typo... |
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| 15:27.50 | Mathisen | ,v mlocate |
| 15:27.51 | judd | Package: mlocate on amd64 -- jessie: 0.26-1; stretch: 0.26-2; bullseye: 0.26-3; buster: 0.26-3; sid: 0.26-3 |
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| 15:29.44 | _1byte | I'm trying to install i386 onto a bootable CompactFlash drive via a Debian host machine. I have tried to format the MBR and used dd to write the iso to the drive, however I can not seem to get it to boot in the client machine (Pentium 75 with 8mb ram). I have made sure in fdisk that the drive is flagged as bootable, but I'm not sure what else to try. Any thoughts? |
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| 15:30.56 | Mathisen | _1byte, some more error info would be a good start |
| 15:30.57 | jhutchins_wk | _1byte: 1) Formatting is overwritten by copying the iso, which is a pre-formatted image. 2) Be sure you are copying the iso to the device, not a partition. |
| 15:31.59 | _1byte | jhutchins_wk, AH! Perhaps that's it. /dev/sdb instead of sdb1 |
| 15:32.05 | _1byte | Will test. |
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| 15:32.39 | alkisg | _1byte: eeeeh are you sure that's 8 MB RAM? The kernel won't fit there, you'd need a 10+ year old release for that |
| 15:33.29 | alkisg | The last low-spec I managed, was Debian Wheezy in 32 MB RAM |
| 15:33.38 | alkisg | So you'll need a lot older than that |
| 15:33.50 | greycat | Current Debian releases will not work on 8 MB of RAM. Not even remotely close. And the current release also won't work on a first-generation Pentium. |
| 15:34.34 | greycat | Wheezy officially required 64 MB, but if alkisg managed it on 32 MB, I can believe it. Jessie/systemd does not work on 64 MB. I know this first hand. |
| 15:34.51 | _1byte | Oh, I just checked, Memory 32512 KB |
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| 15:35.01 | alkisg | _1byte: is this RAM or VideoRAM? |
| 15:35.05 | _1byte | RAM |
| 15:35.15 | greycat | Wheezy might work on that, but you're under the official recommendation. |
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| 15:35.42 | alkisg | OK then you might be able to boot it with debian wheezy, with the older kernel though (what was it, i486?), not the i686 one |
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| 15:36.47 | alkisg | That was a screenshot of my wheezy experiment: http://alkisg.mysch.gr/steki/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4024.0;attach=2512;image |
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| 15:37.03 | alkisg | I see that was 42 MB, not 32... but it might work with 32 without xorg, don't remember |
| 15:37.03 | dob1 | hi, is there a command that I can use other than echo >> to append data at the end of a file? I am worried to forget a > on the echo command and delete all the content of the file |
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| 15:37.19 | greycat | dob1: tee -a |
| 15:37.19 | dob1 | echo something >> file |
| 15:37.25 | _1byte | Oh, I don't need graphics at all |
| 15:37.34 | winny | alkisg: what are the specs of that wonderful system? |
| 15:37.34 | greycat | good, because you're not going to have them |
| 15:37.41 | _1byte | haha |
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| 15:38.09 | alkisg | winny: it was actually a VM; but then I cloned it to around 50 old systems that I had with low specs (windows 98/xp machines that schools wanted to "upgrade") |
| 15:38.11 | dob1 | greycat, but if I forget the -a it's the same as to forget > |
| 15:38.30 | dob1 | I wil create an alias maybe |
| 15:38.55 | alkisg | winny: I think the oldest were amd k6 and pentium 2 |
| 15:39.04 | jhutchins_wk | dob1: Add a step to back up the file before you write to it. |
| 15:39.07 | winny | alkisg: how did you manage such low memory usage? On my gentoo based low memory install, booting to ~70MiB was all I could manage (to icewm) |
| 15:39.17 | jhutchins_wk | dob1: Make backups, keep notes, get the commands right in the first place. |
| 15:39.18 | _1byte | Maybe I can try to compile a stripped down kernel? |
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| 15:39.57 | alkisg | winny: I avoided all system services by starting in "recovery mode" (kernel parameter=single), where most services don't start, and then ran startx from there, thus also avoiding a display manager |
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| 15:40.08 | ratrace | _1byte: that'd work ; i have a gentoo desktop with kernel built just for that machine's hardware, it's around 6MB |
| 15:40.19 | jhutchins_wk | _1byte: The kernel itself is pretty "stripped", it uses dynamically loaded modules. |
| 15:40.43 | dob1 | jhutchins_wk, I will create an alias for tee -a |
| 15:40.45 | winny | does debian still use eglibc? maybe that might have something to do with that |
| 15:40.55 | alkisg | _1byte: the biggest problem is the initramfs, because at some point you have this in ram: kernel, initramfs, AND uncompressed initramfs |
| 15:41.25 | alkisg | _1byte: so before starting to compile kernels etc, start by (1) testing as it is, (2) stripping down the initramfs itself |
| 15:41.29 | ratrace | is initramfs really needed |
| 15:41.37 | _1byte | HEY! Graphical Install is working! After writing to the device instaeed of the partition |
| 15:41.55 | koollman | alkisg: isn't there a way to provide an uncompressed initramfs directly ? (so no extra space required). or no initramfs at all, too |
| 15:42.06 | alkisg | _1byte: which debian vesion are you trying to install? |
| 15:42.45 | alkisg | koollman: no initramfs should be doable, e.g. raspbian does it; but in some cases it might require a custom kernel to access the hardware |
| 15:42.54 | ratrace | unless you need tools to unlock rootfs for the kernel to pivot (like scripts and userland commands), you don't really need initramfs |
| 15:42.56 | _1byte | I just downloaded 10 and the i386 option. OK, so the graphical install does not work |
| 15:43.04 | alkisg | I don't know if an uncompressed initramfs wouldn't be "cloned" by the kernel |
| 15:43.38 | alkisg | _1byte: try debian 7 or debian 6 |
| 15:44.27 | jmcnaught | alkisg: _1byte: no don't try an unsupported release. _1byte what doesn't work? |
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| 15:44.44 | alkisg | jmcnaught: did you see the specs? pentium 2 with 32 MB RAM |
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| 15:45.08 | alkisg | Maybe pentium 1, don't remember what "pentium 75" was called |
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| 15:45.20 | _1byte | Right so it boots to the install menu, but then I can't proceed - Graphic install crashes the video memory |
| 15:45.40 | alkisg | _1byte: the "install menu" is syslinux, which is NOT a kernel; this can also work with 1 MB RAM |
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| 15:46.09 | _1byte | Well I get that far |
| 15:46.48 | alkisg | Try to reboot the pc and get a screenshot with the mobile phone, at the point where it mentions the cpu and the ram |
| 15:47.05 | alkisg | If it's really pentium 75 with 32 MB RAM (and not videoram), then you need a really old debian |
| 15:47.18 | alkisg | And btw you can find a lot faster PCs in thrash bins... |
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| 15:47.57 | alkisg | E.g. we have more than 100 Pentium 4's with 1 GB RAM ready to be thrown away here... |
| 15:48.30 | greycat | even if you manage to get Debian running on that 32 MB machine, what are you going to *do* with it? |
| 15:48.32 | mureena | tfw you still see Debian Sarge in production |
| 15:48.42 | lope | I converted my raid MBR partition to GPT with `sgdisk -g /dev/sdc` it converted. But I tried to install grub now and it failed. "grub-install: warning: this GPT partition label contains no BIOS Boot Partition; embedding won't be possible." |
| 15:48.53 | _1byte | I need it as a serial console to work on my SGI machines lol |
| 15:48.54 | lope | Surely grub should be able to create the necessary GPT partition for me? |
| 15:49.27 | alkisg | lope: grub doesn't create gpt partitions; use gparted for that; then grub will use them |
| 15:49.43 | lope | I'm running headless, no gparted |
| 15:49.43 | alkisg | lope: also note that gpt usually goes with uefi and grub-efi, not with grub-pc |
| 15:49.49 | alkisg | lope: parted then |
| 15:50.13 | alkisg | grub-efi doesn't require a "bios boot partition" |
| 15:50.14 | lope | Are you saying that grub-pc won't be able to boot with my GPT partition table? |
| 15:50.18 | alkisg | No |
| 15:50.22 | winny | lope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS_boot_partition |
| 15:50.29 | winny | and that's incorrect |
| 15:50.39 | winny | you can boot grub-pc off gpt, but you need to set it up correctly |
| 15:50.43 | alkisg | I'm saying this: grub-pc needs a special partition for gpt disks. grub-efi doesn't. |
| 15:50.56 | winny | ah, nevermind then :) |
| 15:51.03 | alkisg | So if your firmware can do uefi, just install grub-efi instead of grub-pc |
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| 15:52.26 | alkisg | (that is because grub-efi uses the efi partition, which is a vfat one; well if you don't have that either, you need either a vfat efi partition and grub-efi, or the special bios boot partition and grub-pc) |
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| 15:56.34 | charking | I replied to a Debian bug report via email but do not yet see my reply. Does it take some time to appear? |
| 15:56.54 | charking | I've waited several minutes. |
| 15:57.02 | greycat | yeah, it can take a while |
| 15:57.11 | annadane | i'd wait longer than "minutes", yeah |
| 15:57.17 | annadane | it's not instant |
| 15:57.35 | charking | It shows up now, thanks. |
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| 15:59.11 | _1byte | Well, I guess I'm going to hunt for an OS that can operate on 32MB of ram.... |
| 15:59.24 | ratrace | freedos? |
| 15:59.37 | alkisg | _1byte: dsl linux |
| 15:59.52 | _1byte | Trying that next. |
| 16:00.06 | _1byte | ratrace, I did try freedos, which is great but getting software is not that easy |
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| 16:00.23 | alkisg | "getting software" ==> debian 7 or 6 |
| 16:00.32 | alkisg | This has the most software you'll find for that pc |
| 16:00.43 | _1byte | I really only need something like kermit or another serial dos program |
| 16:00.57 | ratrace | _1byte: when you say serial, you mean rs232? |
| 16:01.02 | _1byte | Correct |
| 16:01.12 | ratrace | so a modern rpi-like board with an rs232 module wouldn't work? |
| 16:01.38 | _1byte | It might, but I have these tools in front of me. |
| 16:01.55 | _1byte | Also, the SGI machine doesn't really like the USB serial translators, already tried that |
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| 16:02.13 | charking | I accidentally submitted the bug report as HTML instead of plain text. Is there any way to delete the message? |
| 16:02.15 | ratrace | well that's like having tools from stone age unearthed in front of you ; fun experiment ; but that's all |
| 16:02.28 | _1byte | Such is retrocomputing |
| 16:02.55 | ratrace | that era was actually 16 bit mostly, with 32-bit dos4gw extenders being a "super modern thing" |
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| 16:03.29 | ratrace | very hard pressed to find any software today, that you could even try to recompile for everything + kernel to fit into 32MB |
| 16:03.45 | alkisg | http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ => Run light enough to power a 486DX with 16MB of Ram => If it has the software you need, you're done; otherwise debian 6/7 have everything in archives |
| 16:04.16 | _1byte | I |
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| 16:04.26 | _1byte | I'll keep working at it. Thanks for the help. |
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| 16:07.36 | lope | ratrace, I've got linux soft-raid1 on /dev/sdc1 and /dev/sdd1 (it was MBR) I converted to GPT, created a 3M partition, marked it as bios_grub, reinstalled grub to sdc and sdd (it said success). All seems fine. I double checked my mdadm status and double checked that my md0 UUID did not change and /etc/fstab is fine. Will I be able to boot? Did I forget anything? |
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| 16:08.19 | trek00 | lope: have you rebuilt initramfs? |
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| 16:08.36 | lope | trek00, yes |
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| 16:08.57 | lope | I did in this order update-initramfs -u; update-grub; grub-install |
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| 16:09.06 | lope | alkisg, ^ |
| 16:09.12 | ratrace | lope: if grub is referencing correct devices, and initramfs included mdadm, you should be fine yea |
| 16:09.27 | lope | okay gonna reboot |
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| 16:11.34 | lope | yay! it booted |
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| 16:11.48 | lope | thanks guys, I'm now part of the GPT club |
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| 16:12.57 | ratrace | lope: btw, grub-install should go first, because it prepares the dirs for update-grub to work on ; i suppose it didn't matter in this case as you already had /boot laid out |
| 16:13.14 | alkisg | dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc is better |
| 16:13.21 | lope | ratrace, haha, well I repeated all the commands a 2nd or 3rd time for good luck |
| 16:13.24 | alkisg | It remembers the disk where grub is installed too |
| 16:13.28 | lope | just incase I got the order wrong :p |
| 16:13.45 | lope | ratrace, ah yeah, /boot was already there |
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| 16:15.01 | AlpacaFace | Anyone having good experiences with nvme ssd? Recommendations please? I tried the Corsair MP510, incompatible. Shows up in bios, but nothing showing up in lspci/lshw/fdisk/nvme-cli. Most Ive read say even if they work, the performance is horrific in linux compared to Win, where they are optimized. That on linux, NVME performance over SATA is negligible as of recent. Any opposing experiences please? |
| 16:15.17 | ratrace | lope: update-grub literally just calls grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg so if /boot/grub is not there (and it's created by grub-install) it'd fail ; and i guess alkisg's suggestion is maybe even better |
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| 16:15.50 | ratrace | AlpacaFace: check phoronix, it has benchmarks and lists models used |
| 16:15.54 | lope | thanks ratrace |
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| 16:15.57 | alkisg | dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc runs both grub-install and update-grub, and additionally remembers where grub gets installed and allows multiple disks too, and has a debconf/whiptail menu :D |
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| 16:17.29 | lope | AlpacaFace, I've not experienced any nvme SSDs but done quite a bit of research on them. The Corsair MP510 indeed looks nice, however it's got a high idle power consumption, so not suitable for mobile. And it produces a huge amount of heat so needs a good cooling solution. However it's a very solid reliable choice. providing a stable ~1GB write speed across the entire capacity of the drive and very good TBW rating. |
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| 16:18.31 | koollman | lope: 'high' is relative. how much ? |
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| 16:18.43 | lope | On the other hand the XPG (Adata) SX8200 is a very impressive drive, with much faster write speeds of about 3.2G IIRC for about 70G (IIRC) until it runs out of empty write cache then drops down to probably SATA speeds of like 500~700MB/s IIRC |
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| 16:18.59 | no_gravity | Hello! I have made /etc/resolv.conf a file instead of a link, so it does not get overwritten anymore. Is there a way to undo that? |
| 16:19.06 | lope | But the TBW is lower as well, it's not as suited to server use as the Corsair MP510 |
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| 16:19.38 | lope | koollman, IIRC 3.5W idle power consumption vs Samsung, which is like 0.6W |
| 16:19.42 | ratrace | no_gravity: remove the file and allow network manager to recreate the link? i think it's NM that creates it, and it's only for systemd-resolved ; i could be wrong |
| 16:19.56 | lope | The SX8200 idle power was around 1.7W IIRC |
| 16:20.04 | no_gravity | ratrace: I tried to remove it and reconnect, but it did not get created again. |
| 16:20.08 | lope | and runs much cooler than the MP510 |
| 16:20.24 | ratrace | no_gravity: is there a dns= option in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf ? |
| 16:20.30 | jrtc27 | no_gravity: sudo dpkg-reconfigure resolvconf |
| 16:20.46 | lope | Sorry everything I've said about the XPG SX8200 that's the Pro version I'm referring to. |
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| 16:21.06 | lope | I've not bothered to check out non pro anything in terms of NVMe |
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| 16:21.29 | lope | the Samsung 970 Pro is excellent, but very pricey. |
| 16:21.37 | no_gravity | jrtc27: Awesome! dpkg-reconfigure resolvconf did it! |
| 16:21.59 | lope | AlpacaFace, ^ |
| 16:22.26 | lope | AlpacaFace, in my situation I realized that just getting SATA SSDs alone would be a huge upgrade |
| 16:22.37 | lope | So I went for dual SATA SSDs for caching stuff |
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| 16:22.57 | lope | the NVME is just a bit of extra bling factor to the performance. |
| 16:23.03 | lope | But the real benefit is HDD vs SSD |
| 16:23.45 | AlpacaFace | Ive seen some of the Phoronix benches, mostly ubuntu, and not really relatable. Ubuntu is supposed to support the mp510, but not showing up in debian. But then Ive also read someone spoke to a Corsair rep that says it is not supported in Linux. So who can know for sure. Thanks for the responses, ppl. Much appreciated. My ssd looks to be on its way out, so just preparing :) |
| 16:23.47 | lope | I'd much rather eliminate HDDs and will gladly settle for SATA SSDs than try get some small amount of NVMe |
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| 16:24.03 | lope | and try cobble together a solution with SSD mixed with HDD |
| 16:24.45 | lope | Even now, I had planned to mix HDD and SSD, but now today I've discovered that ZFS hardly benefits from SSDs |
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| 16:25.06 | lope | And running 2 bcache's underneath ZFS makes me uncomfortable |
| 16:25.07 | ratrace | lope: now waitaminute ; someone told you that ; did you actually try it yourself? ;) |
| 16:25.26 | lope | when you consider one kernel upgrade can corrupt the bcache |
| 16:26.15 | lope | ratrace, well the fact is ZFS doesn't make use of anything bigger than 1G of SSD |
| 16:26.22 | lope | for write |
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| 16:27.07 | ratrace | which should suffice for most SLOG workloads ; but i thought your primary concern was L2, not SLOG |
| 16:27.12 | lope | and for reads, it can't read what is in the ZIL. Then there's the whole reboot and your L2ARC disappears |
| 16:27.28 | lope | well, I'd like to accelerate everything |
| 16:27.35 | ratrace | yeah that non-persistence across reboots is really a pita |
| 16:27.46 | lope | I mean imagine APG SX8200 Pro performance full cloning a VM? |
| 16:28.00 | lope | 3.2GiB/s write speed for up to 70G |
| 16:28.15 | ratrace | lope: i think you're misunderstanding ZIL/SLOG ; it's only the first device that takes in blocks, so it handles bursts ; but then it syncs them back to hdd |
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| 16:28.25 | lope | now imagine making use of that in bcache with a larger HDD |
| 16:28.36 | ratrace | 1GB should suffice as your write must NOT be faster than what the hdds can take |
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| 16:28.52 | lope | yeah, I understand, I've learned that today. |
| 16:29.02 | lope | I'm just saying ZFS doesn't benefit from SSD like bcache does |
| 16:29.17 | ratrace | so ZIL can take a burst of, say, 500MB/s for a second or two, which then takes many more seconds to sync off to HDDs |
| 16:29.49 | lope | ratrace, what happens if you make your ZIL 50G |
| 16:29.52 | lope | would it take 50G? |
| 16:30.04 | lope | but you know that comes back to the sync writes issue. |
| 16:30.11 | lope | ZIL only works for sync writes |
| 16:30.12 | ratrace | it's pointless, because if you fill up those 50G fastre than you sync it off to hdd, you're in deeper mess anyway |
| 16:30.23 | lope | non sync writes just block and wait for the HDD as far as I'm aware. |
| 16:30.25 | ratrace | 1-2GB of ZIL suffices for bursty activity, that's all what ZIL is for |
| 16:30.47 | ratrace | no they don't, the system is not waiting for ZIL to sync out to HDD |
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| 16:31.19 | lope | non sync writes don't touch ZIL |
| 16:31.25 | ratrace | really just.... try it and see how your workload behaves ; please don't listen to random people on IRC especially when you're hearing conflicting info |
| 16:31.26 | lope | so non sync writes will block until the HDD takes them |
| 16:31.33 | ratrace | lope: depends on logibas setting |
| 16:31.42 | ratrace | %s/logibas/logbias/ |
| 16:32.04 | lope | Are you saying you can make zpool write even non-sync writes to the ZIL? |
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| 16:32.52 | lope | I hear you, gotta test things |
| 16:32.53 | ratrace | lope: well wait, non-sync writes are not committed anywhere, they're dirty pages in ram |
| 16:33.24 | ratrace | so you've got that buffer there, RAM ; whether that then goes through zil at kernel's discretion, i can't tell you with 100% certainty right now |
| 16:33.27 | lope | until the ram is full |
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| 16:33.30 | lope | then it blocks |
| 16:33.40 | ratrace | no, the kernel dumps dirty pages |
| 16:33.50 | ratrace | there's a sysctl that controls ratio and age of 'em |
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| 16:34.21 | lope | oh yes, the kernel's write cache |
| 16:34.23 | ratrace | but if you're writing faster than hdds can take, any caching is pointless |
| 16:34.32 | lope | ratrace, not in bcache though |
| 16:34.45 | lope | I'm not saying ZFS is bad performance, it's good. |
| 16:34.48 | lope | But bcache is better |
| 16:34.49 | ratrace | i think, but again i am not 100% sure, when the kernel dumps the dirty pages, they do go through zil first, for logbias=latency |
| 16:35.30 | lope | ZFS performance relies on having RAM to cache reads and writes and a tiny bit for ZIL then L2ARC which there's mixed reports about |
| 16:35.33 | ratrace | lope: it could be ; i just want to correct some misinfo there about zfs not benefiting from L2/ZIL at *all* :) |
| 16:35.41 | lope | With Bcache the SSD is taken advantage of fully |
| 16:35.55 | lope | so performance is not limited by how much RAM you have |
| 16:36.03 | ratrace | but the real question here is, why can't you just use ssds directly? |
| 16:36.17 | lope | the read and write caching of RAM is a bonus that also exists with bcache |
| 16:36.54 | lope | Yes I hear you and I understand, I need to test L2 for myself to see what I can get out of different sizes. |
| 16:37.30 | lope | "why can't you just use ssds directly?" budget |
| 16:37.43 | lope | HDDs are cheaper than SSDs |
| 16:37.59 | ratrace | btw, can you add bcache to any fs at any moment? |
| 16:38.02 | lope | bcache gives you SSD performance on HDD budget |
| 16:38.36 | lope | bcache needs to live on a block device, and provides a block device |
| 16:38.50 | lope | thanks for the chat bud, I'm not using bcache btw. |
| 16:38.59 | ratrace | "ssd performance on hdd budget" is not unlike "unlimited bandwidth" overselling in hosting :) yeah it's unlimited as in "unmetered" but nobody told you you'd be sharing it with 1000 other customers :) |
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| 16:39.31 | lope | I'd like to run bcache, but my setup is not suitable for it. |
| 16:39.44 | ratrace | lope: i asked because iirc you need to set it up in advance, you can't just add it to any fs at any moment, like one can with l2 |
| 16:40.10 | koollman | lope: I haven't found bcache to be very effective in most cases. it helps, but it's quite limited |
| 16:40.11 | lope | well I'm setting up a new server so that's why I've been intensely considering the options. |
| 16:40.16 | ratrace | so, eg, i can't convert any of my existing servers to try that out, i'd have to build the fs from scratch |
| 16:40.24 | lope | Need to get cracking and get this server up asap. |
| 16:40.45 | lope | ratrace, you'd have to make space yes |
| 16:41.06 | Habbie | so, shrink the fs? |
| 16:41.07 | koollman | lope: and on the nvme side, I am pretty happy with micron 9200 pro (for servers) |
| 16:42.03 | ratrace | lope: i don't mean that, but your fs needs to be atop of the bcache device. you can't take an existing fs and then reconfigure it to go through a bcache layer, right? |
| 16:42.17 | x0n | a SSD SLOG has one big selling point besides resistance to power loss data corruption (you do have a supercap in your SLOG like you should, right?): random writes to the pool arrive like sequential IO at the disk end |
| 16:42.50 | koollman | ratrace: iirc there are tricks. but mostly you are right, you want to do that on an empty device that will be formatted |
| 16:42.50 | x0n | so the use case is having multiple concurrent applications doing disk IO |
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| 16:43.05 | koollman | ratrace: it's not too hard in various setups to move data around though |
| 16:43.21 | ratrace | koollman: right because you must mkfs /dev/bcacheX, not just attach/detach whenever one wants, like L2 |
| 16:43.21 | koollman | especially if you have some decent partitionning, or even better, decent lvm setup |
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| 16:45.18 | ratrace | ugh lvm, no, no lvm here. |
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| 16:45.30 | x0n | ZFS is a filesystem for servers. you are correct in that you won't get enormous performance out of it as a desktop user |
| 16:45.42 | koollman | ratrace: well, pvmove is quite magical for this kind of things. live moving everything around :) |
| 16:45.42 | ratrace | depends |
| 16:45.54 | ratrace | x0n: depends on the workload proflie |
| 16:46.59 | teclo- | ZFS ? There's ZFS for Debian GNU/Linux ? |
| 16:47.08 | ratrace | yeah |
| 16:47.08 | koollman | sure |
| 16:48.58 | teclo- | good to know then... I always thought that "ZFS's licence is incompatible with the Debian Free Sofware Guidelines"... |
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| 16:49.21 | ratrace | teclo-: it's a dkms, like nvidia-driver |
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| 16:49.40 | ratrace | that in itself does not violate gpl ; distributing pre-built binaries might |
| 16:50.12 | koollman | teclo-: it's hard to distribute, but it can be packaged decently now, and it is |
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| 16:52.32 | ratrace | the problem for zfs is not packaging, it's kernel forbidding its apis for non-gpl software, which is happening lately ; zfs, nvidia on power arch ; i'm sure it'll continue ; personally i doubt there's future for zfs on linux |
| 16:53.48 | karlpinc | ratrace: IIRC zfs is in contrib, and installing it automatically compiles it so the license is not violated. Works, but clunky. |
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| 16:55.12 | ratrace | karlpinc: yeah, contrib |
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| 16:57.49 | koollman | ratrace: it's not just the kernel. it's cddl/gpl incompatibility. you can distribute both as source, but can't distribute the resulting binary (unless you have a solid legal team) |
| 16:58.34 | ratrace | koollman: it's not just redistribution, it's using kernel functions ; zfs doesn't even build on 5.x kernels due to that |
| 16:58.35 | koollman | it's incompatible by license design :) |
| 16:58.44 | koollman | ratrace: using is not restricted by gpl |
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| 16:59.32 | ratrace | koollman: https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8259 |
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| 17:00.09 | koollman | ratrace: I am aware |
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| 17:02.25 | ratrace | anyway, i have hight hopes for btrfs, i'd love to migrate our servers from ext4 atop of md, to btrfs |
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| 17:02.44 | koollman | I don't have much hope for btrfs |
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| 17:16.29 | dunatotatos | Hi there. I just updated my Debian Sid, and grub-install complains because core.img is too large to fit in the "embedding area". My hard drive is formatted in btrfs, with no separate /boot. The problem seems to be known, (https://askubuntu.com/questions/171868/grub-fails-to-install-core-img-unusually-large https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1059827 ), but no real solution is provided, except removing /, and re-installing. If possi |
| 17:16.29 | dunatotatos | ble, I would like to avoid re-sizing a filesystem. Is there a way to reduce the size of core.img? |
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| 17:28.36 | ratrace | lope: btw, i just realized looking at this issue i linked above, they say the fpu export was backported to 4.19.38. so unless the debian maintainer repatches it, the zfs mega slowdown is coming to debian stable too with 10.1 |
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| 17:31.33 | ratrace | lope: or it's solved.... https://salsa.debian.org/zfsonlinux-team/zfs/blob/master/debian/patches/linux-5.0-simd-compat.patch |
| 17:32.35 | AlpacaFace | intel-microcode throwing my cooling out of whack. It solved bootup firmware errors, but fan speed was super buggy. Removed, now better. Dell G3 |
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| 17:43.16 | MaxLanar | Hello, I've upgraded from debian 9 to debian buster, everything works great except I have no sound anymore. In pavucontrol, in 'output devices', I got 'no output devices available'. What can I do to investigate the issue/resolve it ? |
| 17:44.24 | nkuttler | MaxLanar: lsmod | grep snd |
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| 17:46.45 | MaxLanar | ok never mind, doing that https://wiki.debian.org/PulseAudio#Missing_playback_devices_or_audio_capture did the trick |
| 17:47.24 | MaxLanar | thanks nkuttler |
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| 17:55.18 | MaxLanar | mmm, in fact after a reboot my system is in the same state : no sound, no output devices available. |
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| 17:55.45 | lope | ratrace, I'm using a 5.x kernel and I've got ZFS running? |
| 17:55.58 | lope | <ratrace> koollman: it's not just redistribution, it's using kernel functions ; zfs doesn't even build on 5.x kernels due to that |
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| 17:57.50 | MaxLanar | Besides I still couldn't manage the volume in pavucontrol or with the keyboard keys after purging the user pulse config files |
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| 17:58.15 | lope | ratrace, I've vacillated like crazy over the decision of how to setup my storage on my new server. tossed and turned like crazy. |
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| 17:59.54 | jmcnaught | MaxLanar: does 'aplay -l' list your soundcard? |
| 17:59.59 | MaxLanar | the result of lsmod|grep snd : http://paste.debian.net/1092948 |
| 18:00.49 | MaxLanar | jmcnaught: yes, it seems so : http://paste.debian.net/1092949/ |
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| 18:01.01 | jmcnaught | !timidity pulseaudio |
| 18:01.01 | dpkg | Some users have had <timidity> blocking access to their sound card, resulting in <pulseaudio> only seeing a dummy output. Check if timidity is running with 'systemctl status timidity' and stop/disable with 'systemctl stop timidity ; systemctl disable timidity' and/or remove the timidity-daemon package. |
| 18:01.09 | jmcnaught | MaxLanar: check for this ^^ |
| 18:02.19 | MaxLanar | ok, stopping timidity I have sound again :) |
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| 18:02.24 | Habbie | jmcnaught, oh well done! |
| 18:02.38 | zerocool | anyone know how to change the lock screen image for KDE, debian 10 |
| 18:02.41 | zerocool | ? |
| 18:02.42 | MaxLanar | And volume control works too |
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| 18:03.01 | MaxLanar | perfect, thanks |
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| 18:03.17 | zerocool | oh wait nevermind |
| 18:03.51 | MaxLanar | That timidity is nasty... |
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| 18:04.41 | lope | drove the people on #zfsonlinux a bit nuts. But (probably inspired by you) I've realized that my HDDs and SSD's are more than big enough to support me setting up something sensible and reliable to get main customers running with, while also leaving myself opportunity to experiment with bcache etc for my own use |
| 18:05.33 | MaxLanar | I don't even remember why I have timidity on my system |
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| 18:06.58 | trek00 | lope: bcache is one of the things I would really try in the future with an ssd |
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| 18:08.06 | lope | trek00, I've used bcache for about a year many years ago. it was great. |
| 18:08.29 | lope | I used it with a 750G HDD and a 40G SSD |
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| 18:09.16 | lope | But there can be issues with data corruption when you upgrade kernels apparently you need to disable it |
| 18:09.23 | trek00 | lope: what it happans when the system crashes? |
| 18:09.48 | lope | as far as I've read, bcache is incredibly reliable when it comes to crashes and power failures |
| 18:09.56 | lope | of course you need to have backups |
| 18:10.05 | lope | so you shouldn't be massively concerned |
| 18:10.26 | trek00 | lope: good to know, I always stuck with ext4 + raid to do not have too much problems |
| 18:11.10 | lope | My thinking with bcache, because issues have occurred during kernel updates, is I want to try run bcache on a pair of VM's and export the bcache via NBD to the host, then run a mirror Zpool on those NBDs |
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| 18:11.30 | lope | Those VM's will have no internet access so won't ever really need kernel upgrades. |
| 18:12.00 | lope | But if I do upgrade their kernels, I'll be sure to disable bcache first, and upgrade one at a time and let it run for a few weeks while before upgrading the other. |
| 18:12.17 | trek00 | lope: it won't have performances degradation due to massive context switching? |
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| 18:12.23 | lope | raid doesn't protect from much aside from total drive failure |
| 18:12.30 | lope | you can have silent data corruption in raid |
| 18:12.38 | lope | ZFS is better than raid in many ways |
| 18:13.53 | lope | trek00, I don't think there would be massive performance degradation, virtualization is pretty good these days. I figure even factoring in the performance losses of virtual machines, it'll still be much faster than ZFS. |
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| 18:14.06 | lope | But I'm going to run both setups side by side to test. |
| 18:15.15 | trek00 | lope: i would bet an zfs -> nbd inside a vm -> block layer would use much more cpu than zfs -> block layer |
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| 18:21.29 | Akuw | actually i am running with kde installed but i want debian start in console mode |
| 18:21.44 | Akuw | one option is uninstall kdm right |
| 18:21.48 | Akuw | ? |
| 18:21.56 | humpled | maybe just disable it for now |
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| 18:22.24 | jmcnaught | 'systemctl set-default multi-user.target' (as opposed to graphical.target) |
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| 18:22.32 | greycat | Akuw: "systemctl set-default multi-user.target" to make it stop running the display manager at boot |
| 18:22.58 | greycat | and "systemctl set-default graphical.target" to go back to default |
| 18:23.58 | teclo- | wow |
| 18:24.14 | teclo- | long time I haven't used "systemctl" but it appears to be a very efficient tool |
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| 18:29.06 | Akuw | i need to connect to SONIC VPN from linux |
| 18:29.10 | Akuw | what can i use |
| 18:29.32 | yokowka | heavenO everysoul: name is not in sudoers, this incident will be reported. how to fix?? |
| 18:29.52 | greycat | add yourself to the sudo group, log out and back in |
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| 18:31.17 | yokowka | grey cat what are commands to add to sudo group? |
| 18:31.55 | greycat | "adduser yourname sudo" |
| 18:32.24 | EoflaOE | yokowka: Log in as "root" to do the above command like greycat mentioned |
| 18:32.36 | greycat | (or just use su) |
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| 18:32.50 | greycat | (or su - because horrible horrible horrible) |
| 18:33.21 | humpled | ah didn't know the systemctl commands, thought you had to edit files, does multi-user auto-login all your ttys? |
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| 18:33.33 | greycat | no |
| 18:33.38 | greycat | dear gods no |
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| 18:35.24 | humpled | :þ |
| 18:35.57 | humpled | live-build does that but i'm not sure how yet |
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| 18:36.36 | yokowka | user was added now with no reboot logout and login?? |
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| 18:38.10 | greycat | humpled: I've never done it, but the arch wiki has something that looks like it *might* work in Debian as well. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Getty#Automatic_login_to_virtual_console |
| 18:38.32 | humpled | cheers :) |
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| 18:49.33 | lope | trek00, yes, although IO doesn't really use much CPU generally. it needs to be tested |
| 18:50.05 | lope | So while it would be inefficient CPU wise, how much % of cpu can it really use? 3? |
| 18:50.07 | lope | 3%? |
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| 18:55.00 | yokowka | now i'm in sudoers but when i run file again text is not in sudoers incident will be reported |
| 18:55.40 | greycat | yokowka: what does "id" say? |
| 18:56.34 | yokowka | greycat, uid=1000(denis) gid=1000(denis) гÑÑппÑ=1000(denis),24(cdrom),25(floppy),29(audio),30(dip),44(video),46(plugdev),108(netdev),113(bluetooth),114(lpadmin),119(scanner) |
| 18:57.10 | greycat | You are not in the sudo group. It's not listed there. |
| 18:57.26 | greycat | Either you didn't run the adduser correctly (as root), or you haven't logged out and back in yet. |
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| 18:57.56 | greycat | If "id denis" shows you in the sudo group, then the adduser worked, and you just have to log out and back in. |
| 18:58.04 | greycat | If "id denis" does not show it, then the adduser didn't work. |
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| 19:00.03 | yokowka | greycat i did like you said i run adduser as root now : uid=1000(denis) |
| 19:00.26 | yokowka | is that what needed? |
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| 19:01.00 | greycat | If you log out and back in, and "id" with no arguments shows you in the sudo group, then it should work. |
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| 19:03.22 | yokowka | greycat now i try |
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| 19:06.09 | yokowka | greycat, this are shows after log out and command id: uid=1000(denis) gid=1000(denis) гÑÑппÑ=1000(denis),24(cdrom),25(floppy),29(audio),30(dip),44(video),46(plugdev),108(netdev),113(bluetooth),114(lpadmin),119(scanner) |
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| 19:06.18 | greycat | Do you see sudo in that list? |
| 19:06.28 | yokowka | nope |
| 19:06.32 | humpled | ah i used the getty@tty1.service method before, but with a slightly different path/name |
| 19:06.35 | domovoy | hi |
| 19:06.35 | greycat | Then you didn't run the adduser command correctly. |
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| 19:07.01 | yokowka | well i repeat then |
| 19:07.14 | humpled | the user who is logged in doesn't have a home dir and their shell is ncmpc |
| 19:07.46 | greycat | if they're a user, then they have a home directory, even if that directory is / or something nonexistent |
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| 19:08.16 | humpled | oh |
| 19:09.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1557] by debhelper |
| 19:09.02 | humpled | guest:x:1002:29:,,,:/home/guest:/usr/bin/ncmpc you're right, it doesn't exist though |
| 19:09.35 | yokowka | greycat, user «denis» is part of the group «sudo». if i'm corect translate! |
| 19:10.10 | humpled | yay |
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| 19:10.51 | domovoy | i'm setting an sso solution with sssd and kerberos for auth, for the id ldap seems to be the de-facto choice, but i find it quite annoying to work whith, i'd prefer postgresql. I saw there is libnss-pgsql2 i may be able to use as a proxy with sssd, but it seems dead (last version is from 2008), any better alternative? |
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| 19:15.09 | ratrace | lope: which distribution? |
| 19:16.43 | greycat | yokowka: grep ^sudo /etc/group |
| 19:17.19 | yokowka | greycat, run it in console? |
| 19:17.32 | greycat | any shell will do |
| 19:17.36 | lope | ratrace, concerning? |
| 19:17.44 | ratrace | lope: your 5.x kernel |
| 19:17.51 | lope | debian buster |
| 19:18.03 | ratrace | lope: zfs fixed that issue btw, they simply removed simd support so the modules could be built again but... at severe expense of performance ; what i meant was it broke zfs so it couldn't be built but that was worked around |
| 19:18.10 | ratrace | lope: but custom kernel? |
| 19:18.23 | yokowka | greycat, sudo:x:27:denis |
| 19:18.54 | greycat | That looks correct. So, if you log out and back in, it should work. |
| 19:19.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1550] by debhelper |
| 19:19.20 | yokowka | and if reboot will too? |
| 19:19.29 | lope | ratrace, pve-kernel-5.0.15-1-pve |
| 19:19.34 | greycat | It should work. If it's not working, then something very weird is happening. |
| 19:19.46 | ratrace | lope: what is that |
| 19:19.52 | yokowka | reboot now |
| 19:19.55 | lope | zfsutils-linux 0.8.1-pve1 (proxmox ve6) |
| 19:20.30 | ratrace | lope: so that's some frankendebian ; anyway, you should check if that kernel is patched for the simd fixes that zfs introduced just recently |
| 19:20.44 | greycat | I'm wondering if GNOME is doing something even *more* stupid now, because that bar of stupidity wasn't already raised high enough. Like, maybe it's reusing terminal sessions across logins and therefore no gnome-terminal ever picks up new privilegs. Just a guess. |
| 19:20.54 | ratrace | lope: https://salsa.debian.org/zfsonlinux-team/zfs/blob/master/debian/patches/linux-5.0-simd-compat.patch |
| 19:20.57 | lope | ratrace, if not I'm sure a million PVE'ers will complain |
| 19:20.59 | rain2 | how do i change how long it takes for the system to sleep? debian xfce |
| 19:21.34 | lope | ratrace, thanks for the heads up. I'll check |
| 19:21.45 | greycat | Or maybe yokowka was reusing a tmux/screen session and not telling us. |
| 19:21.45 | ratrace | lope: complain about what? this only affects zfs |
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| 19:22.06 | lope | ZFS is popular on PVE |
| 19:22.44 | ratrace | lope: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NixOS-Linux-5.0-ZFS-FPU-Drop |
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| 19:23.46 | ratrace | lope: could be you've mistaken poor zfs performance on 5.x kernels with l2 not being effective lol |
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| 19:24.37 | lope | hey I never claimed ZFS has poor performance on 5.x kernels with L2 due to anything specific about 5.x kernel. |
| 19:24.51 | lope | I just said ZFS will have worse performance by design than bcache |
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| 19:26.31 | lope | someone said recently that swap should be encrypted on disk |
| 19:26.37 | lope | How would one achieve that |
| 19:26.50 | lope | Luks a block device then put swap on that? |
| 19:26.56 | karlpinc | lope: Yes. |
| 19:27.04 | lope | Surely there's a kernel option to "just encrypt it" |
| 19:27.08 | lope | it's not like I need the key. |
| 19:27.26 | tds | or put it on an encrypted zvol I suppose, you've plenty of options |
| 19:27.47 | lope | tds, people on #zfsonlinux said that zvols don't handle swap well at all |
| 19:27.55 | lope | they advised to rather put swap on mdraid 1 |
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| 19:28.17 | lope | well, what they actually advised was just putting it on a partition |
| 19:28.19 | karlpinc | lope: It is often easiest to use lvm on the whole disk. Then the physical device can be LUKS encrypted, and you can have partitions within that used for various purposes. |
| 19:28.31 | lope | but raid 1 is better cos then at least the system can keep running if a disk fails outright |
| 19:29.04 | lope | karlpinc, are you saying luks the physical disk or luks the LV? |
| 19:29.16 | karlpinc | lope: However, the latest "LUKS password prompter" (askpass?) will retry the password you entered on the next LUKS device, so that if you give them all the same password then you only have to enter the password once. |
| 19:29.28 | karlpinc | lope: luks the pv. |
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| 19:30.08 | karlpinc | lope: The pv itself can be raid1. Or a raid1 of two raid0 collections. |
| 19:30.21 | lope | karlpinc, okay. well this is for a dedicated server in a galaxy far far away |
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| 19:30.59 | lope | so if I luks'd a partition for swap I'd just random generate the luks password and overwrite a new luks on it on boot |
| 19:31.06 | lope | automated |
| 19:31.18 | lope | and throw away the key |
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| 19:32.33 | karlpinc | lope: You could. But that's complicated. You're going to have to unlock the LUKS that's protecting your data anyway, so may as well use the typical idiom. "Standard is better than better." |
| 19:32.49 | lope | it's not complicated |
| 19:33.03 | lope | its a handful of commands in a bash script |
| 19:33.13 | karlpinc | lope: Not especially, but something else for somebody to figure out. |
| 19:33.30 | karlpinc | Just saying. |
| 19:33.40 | lope | what makes you think I need somebody else to figure something out on my server? |
| 19:33.58 | lope | anything anyone does on linux including your last solution is complicated |
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| 19:34.05 | lope | that's the nature of linux |
| 19:34.07 | karlpinc | lope: Hey, if it's only ever just you then whatever makes sense to you. |
| 19:34.47 | lope | swap is disposable, if hypothetically someone inherited the server from me they can just turn off swap and set up swap however they like. |
| 19:34.57 | karlpinc | lope: True. |
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| 19:35.32 | greycat | If it's a server, encrypting swap is irrelevant. Encrypting swap is only a thing for laptops, or other cases where you're afraid someone is going to steal the hard drive or the entire machine. |
| 19:35.53 | lope | greycat, while I tend to agree, not entirely |
| 19:36.13 | lope | because I may have some encrypted volumes on the machine that I'd mount via SSH |
| 19:36.28 | lope | and I'd expect that when they're unmounted or the server is rebooted, they'd be secure |
| 19:36.29 | greycat | which has zero to do with swap |
| 19:36.39 | lope | if there is swap on the disk holding the key, that's not so good. |
| 19:36.41 | karlpinc | greycat: You could be protecting against some rogue datacenter employee that only ever has access to powered down equipment.... (Make up your own threat model here. :) |
| 19:37.06 | greycat | I... suppose. |
| 19:37.15 | yokowka | how to change debian 9 stretch on debian 10 buster, is any problem with that exchange?? |
| 19:37.17 | greycat | but if that's the treat model, there's MUCH more important stuff to worry about |
| 19:37.25 | karlpinc | greycat: Offsite backups of disk snapshots.... :-/ |
| 19:37.54 | karlpinc | yokowka: You follow the instructions in the buster release notes. |
| 19:38.06 | karlpinc | !release notes |
| 19:38.06 | dpkg | The release notes for Debian 10 "Buster" are at https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/release-notes/ . See also <stretch->buster>, <buster install guide> |
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| 19:39.07 | karlpinc | yokowka: Potential problems are documented in the release notes along with the commands to use. |
| 19:40.40 | yokowka | be You bless паÑни!! |
| 19:41.14 | karlpinc | greycat: Crazy security officer, nutso industry/insurance requirements. (PCI anyone? :) |
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| 19:43.31 | greycat | yokowka: (1) did it work after rebooting? (2) are you using GNOME? (3) are you using tmux or screen? |
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| 19:45.42 | lope | greycat, karlpinc: I once had a paranoid customer that asked me to encrypt his data on-disk for the VM's I hosted for him. It added a hassle factor but I did it for years. Then recently I did a server upgrade it was such a hassle to deal with his encrypted storage and I said to him "hang on a second, you've got all these developers running windows with your data on their laptops, in coffee shops, in houses, left in cars etc. I'm hosting your |
| 19:45.43 | lope | stuff inside a data center with 24/7 security, access control, locked cages, yada yada, Sharks with laser beams on their heads, and my host has strict data security policies. But you want ME to encrypt your data, and you don't insist your staff do???? can I stop encrypting it please, it's a hassle. He thought about it then said ok fine. hahaha |
| 19:46.28 | tds | that sounds like the point where you get the developers to encrypt their disks, not disable it on the server ;) |
| 19:47.02 | ratrace | disk encryption in servers is a good thing ; despite sharks with lasers, disks replaced out of your chassis end up somewhere and either you trust they will clean them out before tossing to the recycling bin, or you simply FDE |
| 19:47.03 | lope | well he agreed... less work for me. |
| 19:47.41 | lope | well I assume that I'd wipe the disk before I tell the host to take it out, or before I give up rent of the server. |
| 19:47.54 | lope | But I suppose if the disk becomes faulty I'd be unable to wipe it. |
| 19:48.02 | ratrace | lope: you're assuming you _can_ actually wipe it ; what about malfunction where you can't dd the drive? |
| 19:48.17 | lope | I've just decided not to care so much |
| 19:48.27 | lope | who's got so much time on their hands to give a fuck about some random server? |
| 19:48.38 | ratrace | depends what oyu store on those disks ; if you're in eu and there's private data you're bound by law to encrypt it |
| 19:49.12 | ratrace | lope: anyone who's banking on the assumption that you're reusing keys or passwords for your other, online servers :) |
| 19:49.30 | ratrace | and who has access to the drive tossed out of your chassis |
| 19:49.32 | lope | everybody's busy and needs to get on with their work. The drive would 99.999% likely just get wiped (if possile) and reused, or recycled. Who's actually going to go snooping on some random disk from a server? |
| 19:49.54 | humpled | people |
| 19:49.58 | ratrace | i would ; i did :) |
| 19:50.38 | lope | well, encryption hurts performance, adds complexity, and means stuff can't be automated as easily. |
| 19:50.58 | lope | increases risk of data loss |
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| 19:51.21 | lope | I mean I encrypt my own data, but I live in South Africa |
| 19:51.38 | lope | we've got crime etc |
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| 19:51.47 | ratrace | lope: no it doesn't :) with aesni in modern cpus, the encryption throughput is greater than sata ; and it's easy to automate it, we have FDE on all the servers, and the system to unlck them in place over ssh |
| 19:51.51 | lope | my dedi is not going to get stolen. |
| 19:52.12 | trysten | FDE = fixed disk encryption? oh, _full_ disk encryption |
| 19:52.17 | trysten | do you use LVM or what? |
| 19:52.20 | ratrace | nope |
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| 19:52.23 | lope | yeah |
| 19:52.45 | lope | ratrace, well, your OS drive would be unencrypted, if it's a remote dedicated server |
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| 19:53.00 | lope | so only your data and VM's would be encrypted |
| 19:53.06 | ratrace | lope: it's not though, i just said we had unlocking mechanism in place |
| 19:53.21 | tds | lope: one critical thing here is that you're assuming your provider is competent enough to thoroughly wipe/destroy drives, and not just resell them to the next customer |
| 19:53.21 | lope | you can't boot a server unattended if it's encrypted |
| 19:53.22 | ratrace | lope: initramfs script, with dropbear ssh, waits for keys to be given via ssh |
| 19:53.37 | ratrace | lope: automation does it, jesus, are you even reading what i write :) |
| 19:53.47 | lope | wow, okay I've not heard of that |
| 19:53.58 | lope | is that custom software you have or is it commonly available? |
| 19:54.07 | tds | it's commonly available (and commonly used!) |
| 19:54.07 | ratrace | it's a piece of cake, debian already has support for dropbear in initramfs |
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| 19:54.18 | lope | wow, interesting |
| 19:54.33 | lope | okay, someone could backdoor your initramfs of course |
| 19:54.36 | tds | just doing disk encryption and throwing away the key when the server isn't used anymore may also make your life easier than demanding certificates of destruction or whatever ;) |
| 19:54.44 | lope | so it's not secure from a physical attack |
| 19:55.01 | lope | but at least if your drives are removed, the data on them is worthless |
| 19:55.02 | ratrace | lope: of course, but that's not the threat we're protecting against :: we assume FDE is good only for data at rest; when the drives leave the chassis |
| 19:55.04 | lope | that's pretty cool |
| 19:55.41 | ratrace | again, we don't trust the dc will wipe the drives, esp. if faulty, before tossing to the recycling bin, that's the threat model we use FDE for |
| 19:55.47 | trysten | I assumed that too, FDE is for powered-off security |
| 19:56.12 | lope | interesting. So how do you setup debian in this way? |
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| 19:56.23 | lope | with full disk encryption and dropbear etc |
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| 19:56.55 | lope | I've already got debian running raid 1 on 2 unencrypted SSDs and I've got 2x HDDs in the server I could juggle things around on while setting it up. |
| 19:57.10 | lope | Not much is installed at this point so far, basically OS and proxmox. |
| 19:57.52 | ratrace | lope: basically you install it as if you'd unlock it locally, add dropbear and configure its networking, add ssh keys for initramfs, there's ton of articles on google |
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| 19:58.17 | ratrace | the only exception we do is a custom initramfs hook, we don't use the default unlocking script |
| 19:58.28 | trysten | When I boot debian, it takes about 10 seconds to get over the fact that one of the harddrives is erroring. How can I make the kernel ignore those errors and go ahead and boot |
| 19:59.40 | lope | ratrace, I've only ever done FDE installs with the debian or ubuntu installer, other than that I've manually LUKS'd drives but I've got no idea how to manually luks a drive and make it boot. I've experienced installers not working properly and LUKS'd OS's being unbootable, even though I could mount the data, I didn't know how to make the grub and initramfs etc work. |
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| 20:00.02 | lope | ratrace, I was not able to use the installer to install debian on my dedi. I had to debootstrap it from the host's recovery console. |
| 20:00.16 | ratrace | lope: it's autodetected, and you hint at what needs unlocking on boot via /etc/crypttab |
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| 20:01.53 | lope | ratrace, glad to speak to you. When I took to IRC last time I battled with it, nobody online actually knew how LUKS booting works. how is /etc/crypttab even readable before the disk is decrypted? or is that hint used by the update-initramfs -u and update-grub stuff? |
| 20:02.34 | ratrace | it's used by initramfs-tools yes |
| 20:03.05 | ratrace | lope: look into crypt* stuff in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/ |
| 20:03.11 | lope | ratrace, what would be the basic procedure to setup a dropbear system like you described with debootstrap? |
| 20:03.34 | karlpinc | lope: zless /usr/share/doc/cryptsetup/README.Debian.gz |
| 20:03.38 | ratrace | there's initramfs-tools manpage to get you started, but looking at specific hooks and scripts is the only way to learn what it does; that's how i learned it and wrote custom hooks |
| 20:03.52 | ratrace | lope: you want an ansible playbook for that? :) |
| 20:04.17 | ratrace | zfs root over luks, remote unlocking via ssh |
| 20:04.31 | karlpinc | lope: The above has the instructions for remote unlocking via ssh. (But not anything about debootstrap.) |
| 20:04.45 | lope | ratrace, I'm not familiar with ansible |
| 20:04.50 | lope | do you use it? |
| 20:05.12 | ratrace | for debootstrapping over ssh, yes, then saltstack picks up |
| 20:05.15 | lope | ratrace, do you have an unencrypted GPT partition table? |
| 20:05.28 | lope | surely? |
| 20:05.35 | ratrace | lope: not sure what you're asking, but we encrypt partitions |
| 20:06.43 | lope | saltstack?? |
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| 20:07.27 | lope | interesting |
| 20:07.35 | lope | wow, hot stuff |
| 20:07.35 | karlpinc | I've got an automated unlocking via ssh worked out. It's something of a kludge, because the initial idea was that somebody would get an email when the system booted and unlock the crypted disks. So now, a program recognizses the email, ssh's in with a key, which runs a script via authorized_keys. Ta-da. |
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| 20:08.19 | karlpinc | ("Somebody" never unlocked the crypted fs, so something had to be done... :) |
| 20:08.31 | ratrace | sounds too convoluted |
| 20:08.43 | ratrace | why not fetch the key via https from a central key server? |
| 20:08.48 | lope | ratrace, so are you saying you have an ansible script that can be let lose on a server, and turns it into one of your dropbear bitches automagically? |
| 20:08.49 | karlpinc | ratrace: It is. |
| 20:08.58 | ratrace | lope: precisely |
| 20:09.52 | karlpinc | ratrace: If you keep the key on a keyserver than that's a compilcation too. Unless you don't care who does the unlocking. |
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| 20:10.46 | lope | ratrace, why do you use ansible? what does it do that you can't do yourself? |
| 20:10.54 | ratrace | karlpinc: being that the treat model is when the disk leaves the chassis, and some simple iptables to ensure only your ips can fetch the keys, sure; why not |
| 20:11.10 | karlpinc | ratrace: Ok. |
| 20:11.19 | ratrace | lope: it's a relic from when we used ansible exclusively, before saltstack |
| 20:11.51 | tds | ratrace: out of interest, are you planning to use native zfs encryption when 0.8 is a thing in debian, or sticking with zfs on luks? |
| 20:12.00 | lope | okay, then I'll ask the same question about saltstack? |
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| 20:13.08 | lope | ratrace, do you pay for saltstack? |
| 20:13.10 | ratrace | tds: luks ; we actually don't use zfs that much, only on a few backup of backup servers |
| 20:13.19 | karlpinc | ratrace: (Although IPs are not known to be especially secret. :) Obviously, there's some infrastructure you trust. |
| 20:13.47 | ratrace | lope: we have a fleet of servers, it'd be very, very, very tedious if i or my team had to manually repeat all the commands on all the servers for all the configuration and updating -- hence salt |
| 20:14.09 | ratrace | also, salt has event reactor model so one node can trigger re-config in other nodes, we use that for dns updates for instance |
| 20:14.29 | lope | okay |
| 20:14.59 | ratrace | i work for a web shop that does some mobile apps and customer websites, there are hundreds of sites and any change needs propagation to three dns servers, that's where the event reactor comes very handy |
| 20:15.13 | lope | okay cool |
| 20:15.26 | tds | you can equally just build all this with some bash scripts, there's just plenty of tooling around to make your life easier (like salt/ansible/whatever :) |
| 20:15.32 | lope | ratrace, I'm guessing your ssh key server verifies the incoming IP before providing the key? |
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| 20:16.07 | lope | tds, yeah, I've tested out a node.js project that lets you SSH into multiple servers and type commands into all of them at once. Just a rough proof of concept |
| 20:16.14 | ratrace | tds: that's true, but we also want to be within some standards so when new blood comes pouring in, we could hire folks with existing knowledge ; NIH-ing stuff is the worst thing you can do to lock yourself in trouble |
| 20:16.19 | lope | But obviously wouldn't compare to a well developed solution. |
| 20:16.34 | jmcnaught | node.js driving multiple ssh connections sounds like an abomination |
| 20:16.36 | lope | NIH? |
| 20:16.39 | karlpinc | ratrace: I've used a hidden dns master to push dns changes to multiple authoratiative public slaves, but I like the idea of doing it all with a single tool. |
| 20:16.52 | lope | jmcnaught, that's kind of how I felt using it |
| 20:16.57 | ratrace | lope: yes of course, in fact, we have an in-house app that whitelists servers that may reboot |
| 20:17.06 | lope | excited and scared at the same time, then deleted it. |
| 20:17.12 | ratrace | so yes, if one goes down unexpectedly, one of us has to investigate what happend and then whitelist it for reboot |
| 20:17.15 | karlpinc | lope: Not Invented Here |
| 20:17.36 | tds | ratrace: as someone at a place that has a lot of similar stuff automated in mostly perl and bash, I absolutely agree :) |
| 20:18.00 | karlpinc | "standard is better than better" :) |
| 20:18.04 | ratrace | tds: we started with me scripting stuff in fabric and paramiko :) |
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| 20:19.51 | lope | ratrace, does it make sense for me to setup a dropbear install on a VM, then just just DD it over my existing server's partition, mount it, then update grub etc? |
| 20:20.00 | lope | Might be easier than trying to do it on my dedi |
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| 20:20.40 | ratrace | lope: sure, in fact that's one way to solve the chicken-egg problem with providers that don't support rescue envs with zfs |
| 20:20.57 | ratrace | deploying even dedicated servers from vm images is not uncommon |
| 20:21.08 | lope | ratrace, why do you mention ZFS? you said you hardly use it? |
| 20:21.22 | ratrace | because you use it? |
| 20:21.24 | lope | ratrace, interesting |
| 20:21.28 | lope | ratrace, fair enough |
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| 20:21.36 | tds | if you just want the convenience of working from a vm, another lazy option is to run qemu from your recovery environment and do the install remotely that way |
| 20:21.42 | lope | I just thought you might be one of those crazy people running / on zfs on the metal |
| 20:21.49 | lope | I looked into it and it was scary as fuck. |
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| 20:22.02 | lope | So instead I just put / on softraid 1 xfs |
| 20:22.08 | ratrace | lope: uh i did mention before we run :: on the servers that do use zfs :: root on zfs on luks |
| 20:22.40 | lope | From the zfsonlinux github page it sounds like a very unsupported configuration |
| 20:22.41 | ratrace | we only do dedicated servers, no VMs in production |
| 20:22.51 | ratrace | lope: dunno, it works just fine |
| 20:22.53 | tds | gets bonus fun if you put /boot on zfs as well ;) |
| 20:22.54 | lope | like you can run into the server not booting after kernel upgrades etc |
| 20:23.25 | ratrace | lope: well first we test all updates, and second we use zfs snapshots so it's easy to roll back |
| 20:23.29 | ratrace | so far it never happened |
| 20:23.40 | lope | ratrace, do you test with onsite servers first |
| 20:23.49 | lope | that's nice |
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| 20:24.11 | lope | Ordering KVM and using it sucks |
| 20:24.14 | ratrace | test in VMs for hardware agnostic bugs, then we roll out to less important servers first |
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| 20:24.32 | lope | okay, VM's makes a lot of sense |
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| 20:25.34 | lope | my word linux is so complicated. |
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| 20:25.46 | ratrace | lope: with automation it's also easy to just rebuild the server root, we always make sure to separate base OS from application data, even on "regular" ext4 servers whre there's no snapshots |
| 20:25.53 | tds | lope: just running your servers with proper oob management also makes life a lot easier |
| 20:26.14 | tds | I can sit at home and boot a box from an nfs root, rebuild the entire install, and reboot it back, without having to get out of bed :) |
| 20:26.15 | lope | tds, what do you mean by oob mgmt? |
| 20:26.31 | tds | remote serial console, ipmi, kvmoip, that kind of thing |
| 20:26.40 | karlpinc | lope: That's work you do before you can do any work. :) |
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| 20:27.28 | lope | ah yeah. My old server had a always on KVM. But my new server I need to schedule it or order it to be connected ASAP |
| 20:27.36 | lope | typically I've had to wait 20-45 mins |
| 20:27.41 | lope | And it doesn't work to enter the BIOS |
| 20:27.47 | lope | on the new server |
| 20:28.03 | lope | and it's been pretty crappy on the old and new server, regardless. Really shitty java software |
| 20:28.28 | tds | yeah, we more or less only use serial, makes life much less of a pain |
| 20:28.44 | tds | ssh in and you've got a console, can get to the bios, etc, no messing around with java |
| 20:28.50 | lope | hmm, does the lantronix spider support serial? |
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| 20:28.58 | tds | though of course with more modern machines and html5 ipmi it's a lot better |
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| 20:29.19 | ratrace | tds: ahhh, no java? :) |
| 20:29.20 | lope | html5 impi, I think I got a bone |
| 20:29.26 | lope | never ever seen that |
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| 20:29.42 | lope | stinking java |
| 20:30.33 | tds | ratrace: persuading that kind of thing to work on linux in the first place always seem to be a pain |
| 20:30.40 | tds | and really not what you want when a box just died :) |
| 20:31.33 | ratrace | definitely |
| 20:32.21 | lope | ratrace, I guess your dropbear systems must have GPT partition tables? |
| 20:32.30 | lope | then do you run grub-pc? |
| 20:32.45 | lope | and then do you have grub installed unencrypted in a small grub-partition? |
| 20:33.08 | lope | you know, that 2MiB grub_boot GPT partition? |
| 20:33.24 | ratrace | lope: yes, only root, swap and data partitions are encrypted; on zfs and btrfs servers only root and swap; /boot and bios_grub are not |
| 20:33.59 | karlpinc | swears he's doing dropbear in his initramfs on a ext4 system |
| 20:34.13 | lope | ratrace, oh, so your /boot lives unencrypted on GPT in ext4 or whatever? |
| 20:34.16 | karlpinc | Oops. I mean a dos partition table. |
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| 20:34.48 | ratrace | lope: yeah; encryption is really just to protect data when the disc leaves the chassis, that's all |
| 20:35.03 | lope | yeah. Does each of your dropbear systems have a UUID? |
| 20:35.11 | lope | so it calls home with a unique identifier? |
| 20:35.58 | lope | so you're not just whitelisting an IP, but a UUID with an IP? |
| 20:36.05 | ratrace | nah |
| 20:36.13 | lope | and only during a window of time, as you mentioned. |
| 20:36.18 | ratrace | encryption is really just to protect data when the disc leaves the chassis, that's all |
| 20:36.51 | lope | ratrace, do you set static IPs on your servers? |
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| 20:37.00 | ratrace | otherwise there's a ton of ways someone could attack us, no matter what uuids or protections we did; they could subvert hardware in ways unknown to us |
| 20:37.32 | lope | for sure |
| 20:37.45 | ratrace | static network config, always |
| 20:38.44 | lope | okay. Interestingly, my old server, when I ordered it came with a static IP and debian 6 preinstalled haha. The new one just boots a rescue system with DHCP |
| 20:38.56 | lope | But I set static once I debootstrapped. |
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| 20:39.13 | lope | okay, this has all made me decide to setup my local server for now |
| 20:39.27 | lope | Because this all just made everything a lot more complicated. |
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| 20:39.57 | lope | I thought I had a working server to start on, but noooooo ratrace, you've inspired me to level up and get on the dropbear bandwagon |
| 20:40.04 | ratrace | lope: lol |
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| 20:40.20 | lope | Do you advertise to your clients that you encrypt their shit to the max? |
| 20:40.49 | ratrace | lope: yes and we're bound to by gdpr |
| 20:41.01 | lope | what does that mean for non europeans? |
| 20:41.08 | ratrace | we're bound to give them a sheet with detailed technical measures that protect their privacy |
| 20:41.09 | lope | in international english? |
| 20:41.14 | ratrace | hah i don't know |
| 20:41.16 | lope | ah, very nice |
| 20:41.42 | lope | now I see why devops guys can get paid so much |
| 20:41.54 | lope | I was really surprised to see devops salaries recently. |
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| 20:42.51 | lope | It's also not a particularly productive job. I spend a lot of time figuring out new things, testing things, setting things up, reverting things and not much time actually getting things done. |
| 20:43.09 | lope | Vs programming, you know the language and frameworks etc, and just are productive |
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| 20:44.18 | ratrace | ironically, "devops guys" don't really go this low level ; they're mostly only consumers of public clouds or have us sysadmins set them up with private clouds, so they can deploy their gitlabs, jenkinses, CIs, gits and k8s and dockers and ... |
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| 20:46.04 | ratrace | if they do it themselves, then they do perversions like docker inside k8s inside snaps inside lxc inside snaps inside azure -- kid you not, saw that mentioned done by someone here on irc the other day; unless they were lying through their teeth |
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| 21:17.48 | lope | must have been trolling |
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| 21:18.32 | lope | although I have one legacy system which is openvz containers inside a VM |
| 21:18.42 | lope | which isn't so bad |
| 21:18.48 | lope | in terms of layers |
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| 21:19.00 | lope | but I am getting rid of it one container at a time |
| 21:21.33 | x0n | docker-compose inside a VM ain't a bad way to set up a whole stack of interdependent software and have it self-contained |
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| 21:21.42 | ratrace | lope: well, dunno about azure but on ubuntu k8 is a snap, so if you install it in lxd, which is a snap too, you have three, four levels of containerception right there |
| 21:22.26 | Walex | OpenStack then... :-) |
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| 21:38.48 | epony | lope, it's just sad, vz.. |
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| 21:48.20 | epony | devops are ferengi |
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| 21:58.07 | lope | epony, what is ferengi? |
| 21:58.27 | lope | epony, are you saying that it's sad OpenVZ is dead/dying? |
| 21:58.36 | epony | respawns lope in 1991 |
| 21:58.52 | epony | it's sad that someone was fooled to use vz |
| 21:59.02 | lope | ah. yeah. indeed |
| 21:59.13 | epony | :-) |
| 21:59.21 | lope | I started using it in 2013 when LXC was not yet production ready |
| 22:00.12 | epony | regarding paychecks and salaries, you should look in the accountants reports for the board, and check for the manager salaries (above the devs and ops and the other fake PC guys) |
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| 22:03.32 | epony | lope, I used FreeBSD's jails [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_jail ] maybe starting 10 years prior to that point |
| 22:04.13 | epony | FreeBSD 5-9 |
| 22:04.38 | epony | vz is a hosting scam |
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| 22:05.38 | epony | seems like you found the value of dedicated server compartmentalisation only not the optimal toolkit |
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| 22:05.54 | lope | openvz is actually good, especially for it's time |
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| 22:06.21 | epony | I disagree. |
| 22:06.24 | lope | I even rent a cheap openvz server right now even though I've got all sorts of servers |
| 22:06.32 | lope | that's fine |
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| 22:06.40 | lope | I'm working so I won't argue with you |
| 22:06.46 | epony | :-) have fun |
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| 22:09.42 | epony | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system-level_virtualization#Implementations |
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| 22:17.12 | CrystalMath | how isit that no one other than me is bothered by the font thing? |
| 22:17.17 | CrystalMath | i really need to reduce the line spacing |
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| 22:46.26 | namll | I have a new hdd I want to use as extra space. when i plug in the sata cable the hdd takes the place of sda and throws off the naming assignment of the other hdd's |
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| 22:50.23 | jmcnaught | namll: is it /etc/fstab you're having trouble with? You can use UUIDs instead of device nodes. Find the UUID for the partition with 'lsblk -o +UUID' and then use UUID=65aefaa8 as the first column in fstab |
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| 22:50.41 | jmcnaught | The UUID will be longer than my example. |
| 22:51.03 | namll | jmcnaught: i believe it might be the fstab. I have another drive that I mount with fstab. |
| 22:51.26 | namll | so you have to update the fstab for any hdd additions/removals? |
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| 22:52.38 | jmcnaught | namll: it's one way of doing things. If you use LVM then you can run pvcreate on the new drive, vgextend your volume group, then possibly lvextend some of your logical volumes, that's another way |
| 22:53.27 | jmcnaught | namll: but if you just want to mount the new drive at a specific path, you use fstab for this. |
| 22:53.50 | namll | cool thanks for the help. |
| 22:54.06 | jmcnaught | you're welcome |
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| 23:04.11 | namll | I have to use parted for anything bigger than 2TB correct? |
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| 23:04.54 | namll | im trying to not install plugins that are programs that do the same thing natively in debian. |
| 23:05.34 | Gerowen | Does watching YouTube in Firefox make anybody else's system freeze? I've noticed random freezes in both Ubuntu and Debian on this hardware, but only when watching YouTube. It's not the moment I load a video either, I could watch YouTube for a half hour or so and it'll be just fine and then just freeze randomly. |
| 23:06.02 | Gerowen | I thought perhaps it was thermals since it's a laptop, but the thermals are fine, and I've put it under other sustained loads to get the temps and CPU usage up and had no issues, it's only ever happening on YouTube. |
| 23:08.33 | jmcnaught | namll: I'm not aware of any requirement to use parted. You do need GPT partition table for larger than 2TB. |
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| 23:09.55 | jmcnaught | Gerowen: do it unfreeze on its own? Can you still move the mouse? |
| 23:10.37 | Gerowen | jmcnaught: Negative, whole system locks up and I have to hard kill. |
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| 23:14.56 | jmcnaught | Gerowen: you can look in /var/log/syslog, the final entries before the new boot may have some clues |
| 23:15.38 | jmcnaught | If you're running Xorg (and not GNOME + Wayland) look for ~/.xsession-errors |
| 23:17.23 | Gerowen | jcmcnaught: Right now I'm using Wayland, but before I swithced to Debian it happened using Ubuntu and Xorg as well. |
| 23:17.38 | Gerowen | That's why I was thinking something to do with Firefox or perhaps Gnome shell since I was using that DE on both. |
| 23:18.08 | jmcnaught | It doesn't happen for me with firefox-esr, GNOME and Wayland in buster. |
| 23:18.13 | Gerowen | I'll definitely take a look at the system log and see if there's anything of interest in there. |
| 23:18.38 | Gerowen | I wonder if it could be related to my APU; it's a Ryzen 5 2500U with Vega 8 integrated. |
| 23:18.48 | Gerowen | Perhaps something with the Vega graphics. |
| 23:19.31 | jmcnaught | Gerowen: if it keeps happening you may find it useful to be able to see the system and user logs all in one place. In that case see the note in /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian about making your journal persistent. |
| 23:20.19 | jmcnaught | Then you can use a command like "journalctl --boot=-1 -e" to jump to the end of the journal of the previous boot. |
| 23:21.07 | jmcnaught | Oh, and if you add your user to the adm and/or systemd-journal group you will be able to see system logs without being root, that's how you can see a combined user+system journal. |
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| 23:24.50 | CrystalMath | hi |
| 23:24.57 | CrystalMath | how do i change the freetype:interpreter-version in debian? |
| 23:27.43 | CrystalMath | the arch wiki mentions /etc/profile.d/freetype2.sh |
| 23:27.43 | CrystalMath | but there's no such thing in debian |
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| 23:45.32 | Gerowen | Alrighty, it looks like I might have to wait until it happens again, there's a lot in the log and I can't quite remember the time that it happened last. |
| 23:47.30 | jmcnaught | Gerowen: in syslog if you search for "Linux version" this is the first line of a fresh boot, so you can look above that line. The key to search in less is / |
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| 23:48.27 | gorilla | karlpinc: Nice one. |
| 23:50.17 | kreyren | help_wanted: https://github.com/RXT067/Scripts/pull/2 I need to make qemu to load userland+provided kernel in VM and i dunno how |
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| 23:57.56 | Mirela99 | If you are h0rny right now, check what I have prepared for you! --> https://nullurl.xyz/WsHdL9KG ⥠|
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