| 00:00.42 | wakawako | is an .iso a firmware file? |
| 00:00.50 | dvs | no |
| 00:01.10 | wakawako | what counts as a firmware file? |
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| 00:01.43 | dvs | wakawako, they usually end in ".fw" |
| 00:01.52 | wakawako | ok |
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| 00:02.29 | mutante | wakawako: what separates it from general software is that it's held in ROM/EPROM/flash memory |
| 00:02.56 | mutante | but that definition also fails |
| 00:02.59 | wakawako | how many is a bios made of if it´s the case? |
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| 00:04.09 | LtL | wakawako: what model lenovo do you have? |
| 00:04.20 | wakawako | a t430s |
| 00:04.45 | wakawako | very old by now but it has features many new lack in |
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| 00:06.41 | wakawako | such as connector ports at the back and other non-apple ish cues |
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| 00:07.11 | mutante | what connectors do you need besides USB and HDMI? |
| 00:07.18 | dvs | no USB3 though |
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| 00:07.38 | dvs | mutante, power ;-P |
| 00:07.55 | mutante | dvs: not really, my power is USB-C |
| 00:08.45 | wakawako | yes one but there is internet, usb2 usb3 and vga or dvi |
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| 00:09.23 | wakawako | and one I have no idea what it is |
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| 00:09.40 | wakawako | probably micro usb |
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| 00:11.44 | mutante | do you have a CRT monitor with VGA cable? |
| 00:12.07 | wakawako | funnily enough, yes |
| 00:12.53 | wakawako | gonna check in case of being otherwise |
| 00:14.26 | mutante | fair enough, that's old school |
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| 00:26.59 | LtL | wakawako: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/se/en/downloads/DS029724 Quote, The BIOS Update CD can boot the computer disregarding the operating systems and update the UEFI BIOS |
| 00:28.14 | LtL | disavows any failure caused by lenovo's statement. |
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| 00:30.40 | wakawako | one more thing, will it remove trash that has been attached to the bios level? |
| 00:30.53 | LtL | wakawako: get the .iso file, burn it to cd el torito spec and it should boot. |
| 00:31.11 | LtL | wakawako: it will probably overwrite all of it, not sure |
| 00:31.49 | wakawako | I will think about it |
| 00:32.07 | LtL | i have a T530, i'm thinking too. |
| 00:32.18 | wakawako | but did it work for you? |
| 00:32.44 | LtL | haven't tried dude or i would have told you. |
| 00:32.51 | wakawako | ok |
| 00:33.16 | LtL | it really ought to work... |
| 00:33.36 | LtL | verify checksums if they have them. |
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| 00:33.57 | LtL | and they do. |
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| 00:34.16 | wakawako | might get a little off topic but you don´t happen to know if there is a motherboard with an AMD cpu that is able to fit in a t430s? It might solve more than one issue for me if it worked. |
| 00:35.07 | LtL | no idea, and i won't touch AMD |
| 00:35.16 | wakawako | why not? |
| 00:35.52 | LtL | I've heard horror stories about linux on AMD chips |
| 00:35.54 | wakawako | it´s been proven to be better than intel which right now is something I want to avoid as much as possible |
| 00:36.07 | LtL | yeah, i understand. |
| 00:36.45 | LtL | i think the bios flash is far easier. |
| 00:36.58 | wakawako | too many security concerns and would do for a nice performance boost |
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| 00:38.55 | wakawako | heard that a w500 or similar had enough similarities to fit in a t5x0 laptop |
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| 00:43.49 | wakawako | heard that a w500 or similar had enough similarities at the motherboard to be interchangeable with a t540 laptop* |
| 00:44.17 | wakawako | might sound too optimistic |
| 00:45.14 | wakawako | even though the ideal laptop would be something that is open source powered |
| 00:45.23 | wakawako | hardware wise |
| 00:45.25 | lupine | pine64 innit |
| 00:45.41 | lupine | go full arm |
| 00:46.08 | wakawako | if only raptor computers system had laptops and not just desktops by now |
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| 00:47.16 | wakawako | they use ibm power9 cpus which are pretty cool but the powerdraw is pretty meh |
| 00:48.14 | wakawako | https://www.raptorcs.com/ |
| 00:48.56 | wakawako | almost like you want to replace half your pc with one of these |
| 00:52.34 | wakawako | how well does a ryzen 3rd gen work with linux? |
| 00:52.42 | ZaZaGX | yes |
| 00:53.06 | wakawako | as good as with a significantly older one? |
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| 00:54.37 | dvs | wakawako, Debian doesn't come with a new enough kernel to support it (5.2 kernel?) |
| 00:55.29 | wakawako | is there any custom made motherboards to fit in a laptop? Maybe it sounds too much like a wet dream but does such things exist? |
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| 00:55.46 | ZaZaGX_ | no |
| 00:55.59 | wakawako | oh well it was worth a try |
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| 00:57.15 | wakawako | would be funny if you can shove in a desktop motherboard in a laptop and it would work fine with a battery |
| 00:58.08 | nvz | laptops would have to go back to being bulky for desktop boards to fit |
| 00:58.20 | nvz | laptop form factor was never standardized |
| 00:58.35 | wakawako | wouldn´t resemble a macbook wouldn´t it |
| 00:58.37 | nvz | every case is totally different |
| 00:59.05 | nvz | and there is a lot of proprietary hadrware involved |
| 00:59.12 | wakawako | yup |
| 00:59.51 | wakawako | or shove a nvidia rtx card in a chromebook |
| 01:00.46 | nvz | there are people out there who specialize in custom if you wanna pay enough :P |
| 01:00.55 | nvz | that one guy has made xbox laptops |
| 01:01.05 | nvz | among other wild creations |
| 01:01.19 | ZaZaGX_ | i have a light weight laptop |
| 01:01.22 | wakawako | probably one of the funniest mismatches by far with gpu + something else |
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| 01:01.50 | wakawako | mine´s a slimmed down version of a thicker one |
| 01:01.58 | nvz | my T440 is plenty light.. and packs a good amount of power.. and usually uses 5w orless total |
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| 01:02.11 | wakawako | a T H I C C -er one |
| 01:02.24 | nvz | with 96Wh of total battery power, thats a lot of juice :D |
| 01:02.24 | wakawako | ok |
| 01:02.31 | wakawako | sure |
| 01:02.48 | karlpinc | wakawako: Buster backports has a 5.2.0-0.bpo.3-686-pae kernel. |
| 01:03.33 | wakawako | apparently the hd 4000 gpu can go quite long if you wteak it but as stock it can do better imo |
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| 01:04.09 | wakawako | at stock you think it should do better imo* |
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| 01:07.09 | nvz | well everything in here from the hd 4400 to the combo bt/wifi.. etc manage excellent power saving |
| 01:07.36 | nvz | I get typically 16-24hrs on a charge if I keep the backlight at like 50% |
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| 01:09.11 | nvz | thought about using my camera for a light sensor.. there is a nice python script out there to implement auto brightness on your lcd with your camera |
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| 01:49.20 | yay | hello |
| 01:49.46 | dvs | yo |
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| 01:52.38 | yay | ok, so I have a problem with my linux install. when I type aptinstall ncurses it tell me that aptinstall command is not found |
| 01:52.45 | yay | (just kidding, I was having a bit of fun imitating people wanting tech support) |
| 01:53.28 | dvs | THAT'S IT!!!! |
| 01:53.42 | dvs | !lart yay |
| 01:53.42 | dpkg | whacks yay with a giant beaver's tail |
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| 01:54.44 | dvs | If it was a Beavertail, I would be jealous. |
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| 01:55.17 | yay | sad irc chat |
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| 01:59.35 | yay | !!art dvs |
| 01:59.40 | yay | aw |
| 01:59.46 | dvs | tehe |
| 01:59.52 | yay | !lart yay |
| 01:59.52 | dpkg | does a little 'renice 20 -u yay' |
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| 02:33.58 | Guest18 | I have a quick question guys, anyone here? |
| 02:34.14 | Guest18 | fm |
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| 02:35.03 | jmcnaught | !ask |
| 02:35.04 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
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| 05:23.19 | ashwini_ | exit |
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| 05:30.01 | darxmurf | morning |
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| 06:22.11 | darxmurf | Back with my USB mounting issue after upgrade to buster. I created a new user in the NIS setup and he can mount usb storage Oo. I removed my home folder then to recreate one and problem persists with my account. Is there a security databases stored somewhere on the machine which keeps records of things like that and block me the access? |
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| 06:23.56 | Haohmaru | with LXDE and pcmanfm - i can just open USB storage devices like normal *shrug* |
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| 06:26.42 | wr | have a issue, my sound keeps muting on/off, did a poweroff, reboot and tried to restart every thing i could, but get same behaviour, getting out of ideias |
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| 06:27.18 | ubuking | hello!!!! |
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| 06:27.20 | ubuking | !!!!!!!!!! |
| 06:27.23 | ubuking | hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 |
| 06:27.29 | Haohmaru | !!!1oneone |
| 06:27.29 | dpkg | 1 |
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| 06:27.49 | Haohmaru | ubuking wut's going on? |
| 06:28.04 | ubuking | what Debian should i instll on my dektop? |
| 06:28.06 | ubuking | STABLE or testing? |
| 06:28.07 | diogenes_ | darxmurf, try to move .Xauthority and .ICEAuthority somewhere else. |
| 06:28.17 | Haohmaru | since you ask - stable |
| 06:28.47 | ubuking | Haohmaru thanks and which DE |
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| 06:29.07 | Haohmaru | that's very "up to taste" kind of thing |
| 06:29.12 | Haohmaru | for me it's LXDE |
| 06:29.30 | ubuking | oJh no lxde dont like but |
| 06:29.33 | ubuking | xfce is ok |
| 06:29.43 | Haohmaru | xfce would be my 2nd choice |
| 06:29.51 | ubuking | thanks i go to install !: :D |
| 06:29.57 | ubuking | byeeee |
| 06:29.58 | Haohmaru | kde and gnome are in muh black list |
| 06:30.00 | darxmurf | diogenes_: I emptied my home folder and recreated it, same problem |
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| 06:30.34 | Haohmaru | this guy was very enthusiastic |
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| 06:30.58 | diogenes_ | darxmurf, but you said a new user can mount the drives? |
| 06:31.12 | darxmurf | yep |
| 06:31.19 | darxmurf | it's a NIS network |
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| 06:31.40 | Haohmaru | darxmurf what if you delete the user, and create it again (and then put back your ~/ contents) |
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| 06:31.53 | Haohmaru | or is that gonna have nasty side effects |
| 06:31.55 | diogenes_ | ohh, no clue about NIS networks. |
| 06:32.33 | darxmurf | Haohmaru I can try that yep |
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| 06:33.45 | Haohmaru | if that happens to work, it won't tell you what the problem was, tho |
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| 06:36.32 | darxmurf | hum, not working |
| 06:36.44 | darxmurf | but I don't think it's linked to the home folder then |
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| 06:39.06 | darxmurf | deleted the user, refreshed NIS database, deleted the home folder and recreated the user... same problem |
| 06:39.09 | darxmurf | WTF |
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| 07:20.47 | bernyrd | can I use debian to yeet? |
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| 07:56.59 | millaus564578568 | Ciao a tutti :) |
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| 07:59.17 | darxmurf | Tried to add a policy rule but did not solve the problem |
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| 08:01.35 | millaus564578568 | ho un serve vsftp e l'utente che crea le directory assegna in automatico dei permessi nel mio caso drwxr-xr-x volevo sapere da chi eredita qst permessi e come faccio a farli diventare drwxrwxr-x |
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| 08:02.17 | diogenes_ | !it |
| 08:02.18 | dpkg | Ciao, vai su #debian-it per ricevere aiuto in italiano. Italian Speakers: Please use #debian-it, there you will get much more help. |
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| 08:06.41 | millaus564578568 | i have vsftp and a user who create directory, this directory get drwxr-xr-x but i want this directory will get drwxrwxr-x |
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| 08:08.36 | g0zzy | Is there an unofficial Buster installer that contains all the wifi firmware, inc non-free? |
| 08:09.17 | Fox | g0zzy: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ |
| 08:09.38 | Fox | not sure the installer is there |
| 08:10.06 | g0zzy | Ah OK thanks. It DOES install secure booting EFI? |
| 08:10.23 | Fox | it should |
| 08:12.11 | g0zzy | I ask because i had a car crash of an install yesterday. Not only did install MSDOS part instead of gpart but there was no sign of EFI at all. The BIOS of the box didn't even see the disk, let alone boot it |
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| 08:13.41 | g0zzy | Fortunately i did only a minimal install, but still quite a lot of wasted time. I'm wondering how to avoid a repeat of that |
| 08:14.31 | Haohmaru | darxmurf no idea then, i don't know wut that NIS thing is even *shrug* |
| 08:15.10 | Haohmaru | if nothing else, you could always browse thru its source codez to see wut it's doing ;P~ |
| 08:15.13 | Haohmaru | runs |
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| 08:19.57 | g0zzy | Fox: That list is a little confusing. I'm looking for the old 'netinst' from which i can create a bootable usb installer. Which one do i use these days? |
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| 08:22.14 | g0zzy | Oh perhaps it's iso-cd? |
| 08:22.30 | Fox | g0zzy: browse the directories, you'll find something like that https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ |
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| 08:23.36 | g0zzy | Yes, i think i have it: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/buster_di_rc3+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-buster-DI-rc3-amd64-netinst.iso |
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| 08:24.34 | Fox | the choice is yours ;) |
| 08:25.39 | darxmurf | Haohmaru testing now with a fresh debian 10 reinstallation to see if I have the same issue |
| 08:25.58 | g0zzy | I do installs using the expert mode. Is there something specific i should be doing to avoid ending up without EFI? |
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| 08:30.39 | Fox | g0zzy: not that I am aware of |
| 08:31.15 | millaus564578568 | i have vsftp and a user who create directory, this directory get drwxr-xr-x but i want this directory will get drwxrwxr-x |
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| 08:34.01 | g0zzy | I'm wondering if i might have caused it to go bad through a bad exit from the installer, but i doubt it. I told it to install the bootloader to //dev/sda so i doubt it. I was unable to 'finish the installation' from ssh as i didn't want to leave the installer medium, so went to the box. Of course the installer 'at the box' was pretty confused. I just wanted to shell out and reboot but found that not easy |
| 08:34.07 | ratrace | millaus564578568: look up vsftpd's local_umask option |
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| 08:34.23 | g0zzy | (and it DID install to /dev/sda) |
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| 08:35.43 | millaus564578568 | ratrace: how can i see that ? |
| 08:35.58 | g0zzy | wonrders whether if the installer finds a MSDOS partition table, it simply refuses to change to gpart..? |
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| 08:42.13 | g0zzy | Most installs (inc Windows) that i've seen use a dedicated vfat partition for EFI. That of course is true of the Buster installer itself (certainly of the one i've currently got on my stick). What does the installer currently do as far as that type of partition is concerned when it installs on a standard hard drive? |
| 08:42.20 | Rovanion | How can I get the MAC and IP of the device that's connected to the other end of the network cable to my machine? |
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| 08:43.27 | Fox | Rovanion: arp -a ? |
| 08:43.48 | Rovanion | Fox: Unfortunately not installed and I've got no network :/ |
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| 08:44.28 | ihristov | You can try with `ip ne sh` |
| 08:44.28 | Rovanion | I can cat /proc/net/arp and it has one entry though. But the HW address displayed there is 00:00. |
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| 08:45.03 | Rovanion | ihristov: 10.33.218.1 dev ens5f0 FAILED is the output. |
| 08:45.35 | ihristov | What kind of device is on the other end? |
| 08:46.02 | Rovanion | It should be a network switch connected through a SFP. |
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| 08:46.26 | Rovanion | But perhaps its time for me to go up and trace som cable in the server room? |
| 08:46.27 | ihristov | Obviously there is no network communication between your computer and the device on the other end. Check the cables |
| 08:46.43 | Rovanion | I've got link, the blinkenlights indicate as much. |
| 08:46.59 | Rovanion | Time for safari then! |
| 08:46.59 | ihristov | What kind of switch is this one, managed or unmanaged? |
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| 08:47.06 | Rovanion | Managed. |
| 08:47.35 | ihristov | How is configured the port of the switch |
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| 08:47.40 | ihristov | access or trunk |
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| 08:49.03 | Rovanion | Unfortunately I'm at one of those places where the network is off limits to sysadmins. I'll have to jump through some hoops to get answers on that. Thought I could identify the network switch through software first though. |
| 08:49.33 | Rovanion | Thanks for your time ihristov! |
| 08:49.55 | ihristov | It's highly possible to have some VLANs on the switch and you need to configure VLAN on your edn also, or ask the sysadmin to change the port type :) |
| 08:50.05 | ihristov | You're welcome :) |
| 08:50.07 | g0zzy | might be right: "partman-efi will cope with both MS-DOS and GPT partitioned disks, but will offer to use GPT by preference ***on disks that are not already partitioned***." In my case i was telling it to use the "whole disk" so would have though it would delete the old MSDOS-table ntfs partitions and start over with GPT though... |
| 08:50.31 | g0zzy | s/though/thought |
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| 08:51.01 | Rovanion | ihristov: IMO the switch should be the sole authority of which VLAN something belongs to, but there are other things which here which are wrong according to my opinion so who knows :D |
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| 08:51.57 | ihristov | Understand, but there are different scenarios from time to time : ) |
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| 08:52.18 | ihristov | Ask the colleague sysadmin to do his job :) |
| 08:52.19 | Rovanion | ihristov: Huh, that's interesting. Just never found such a scenario I guess. |
| 08:53.10 | ihristov | For example you want your computer or server to be part of multiple VLANs at the same time, to have multiple IP addresses from different VLANs |
| 08:53.22 | millaus564578568 | ratrace: thk u ratrace i solve with ur advice |
| 08:55.03 | Rovanion | Right, allows you to bridge two VLANs without having two physical interfaces on the same machine. Though it puts more trust in the machine, which is fine in many cases. |
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| 08:59.08 | darxmurf | And here is the joke. Freshly installed machine under debian 10, joined the NIS domain, logged in with different users, can't mount USB. Created a local user, it can mount USB storage |
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| 09:16.25 | Haohmaru | darxmurf you get same behavior in the new debian install? |
| 09:16.57 | darxmurf | it is the new debian install |
| 09:17.22 | darxmurf | Can't mount any external storage from NIS user account but works for local accounts |
| 09:17.38 | Haohmaru | *shrug* |
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| 09:31.05 | ov3rmind | nice ugt guys! |
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| 10:14.35 | humpled | maybe a groups issue darxmurf |
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| 10:27.18 | centrix | I installed Deb 10.1 into a KVM VM (QEMU). I installed XFCE ... all runs well except the auto-resize of my screen does not work as eg. in Windows. I use a spice client (Remote Viewer). Please advice to enable the auto-resize. Thank you. |
| 10:27.44 | centrix | Video card is a QXL one. |
| 10:28.18 | centrix | ii xserver-xorg-video-qxl 0.1.5-2+b1 amd64 X.Org X server -- QXL display driver |
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| 10:40.25 | colo-work | centrix, which type of graphics adapter does your qemu instance provide/emulate? |
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| 10:43.25 | centrix | colo-work, Cirrus, QXL, VGA, Virtio, VMVGA, XEN |
| 10:43.42 | colo-work | centrix, these are the options to choose from. which one did you choose? |
| 10:43.44 | centrix | I opted for QXL |
| 10:43.47 | colo-work | ok |
| 10:43.57 | colo-work | then I don't know, sorry %) |
| 10:44.06 | centrix | No problem. Thanks. |
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| 11:02.51 | live_ | so someone ided my distro as not debian and I didnt even tell them? did that user fingerprint me with osquery or some other tool and would he be able to do that if I was using a proxy or vpn? it was a surprising to be honest. Maybe my irc client is revealing it? |
| 11:03.12 | live_ | it was someone answering questions on this channel, which is why I ask here |
| 11:03.40 | ratrace | what? |
| 11:03.44 | lupine | maybe they guessed it from your words |
| 11:04.02 | colo-work | [13:03:48] -live_- VERSION HexChat 2.14.2 / Linux 5.3.1-arch1-1-ARCH [x86_64/1.21GHz/SMP] |
| 11:04.10 | StucKman_ | maybe you said 'yum' ? :-) |
| 11:04.17 | colo-work | (that's your CTCP VERSION reply) |
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| 11:04.23 | StucKman_ | oh |
| 11:04.26 | lupine | Stand back. we've got a hacker here |
| 11:04.37 | StucKman_ | is swat comming? |
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| 11:04.51 | ratrace | men in black surely are. |
| 11:04.53 | colo-work | don't be afraid. it all ends soon. |
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| 11:06.16 | StucKman_ | live_: jokes apart, what's the issue? |
| 11:07.08 | live_ | totally guessed which linux family I was using...no I hadnt said yum or emerge or whatever |
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| 11:07.46 | ratrace | live_: arch linux? |
| 11:07.58 | live_ | so.... |
| 11:08.16 | abkgu | hi |
| 11:08.30 | StucKman_ | abkgu: hi |
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| 11:09.13 | live_ | ratrace what are you guessing based on? |
| 11:09.19 | StucKman_ | live_: hexchat is rating on you |
| 11:09.28 | ratrace | live_: colo-work told you not 5 minutes ago |
| 11:09.31 | StucKman_ | se colo-work's message |
| 11:09.49 | StucKman_ | ratting? man, English is difficult... |
| 11:10.13 | live_ | thanks ratrace totally missed that... |
| 11:11.44 | live_ | and colo...and colo |
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| 11:18.08 | live_ | just skimmed through wikipedia's comparison of irc clients. Cant find which irc clients reveal this by default. Also Im guessing its the arch maintainters doing... |
| 11:19.02 | live_ | colo-work did you see that with a simple whois live_? I cant seem to see anyone elses distro, though someone is using quassel apparently... |
| 11:19.06 | RoyK | live_: I use irssi - oldtimer, but works. weechat is a wee bit more modern and some choose to stick with that instead. neither of them are graphical |
| 11:19.17 | colo-work | /CTCP live_ VERSION |
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| 11:19.34 | ratrace | I configured my irssi not to respond to ctcp. I guess wee chat can too? |
| 11:19.50 | colo-work | most clients support custom responses, or suppressing a response |
| 11:20.02 | colo-work | /CTCP GNU\colossus VERSION |
| 11:20.08 | colo-work | for an example |
| 11:20.37 | petererer | I'd not even considered that irssi wasn't the standard client, heh. |
| 11:20.49 | ayekat | keep in mind that it's not considered polite to just randomly throw CTCP requests at other users |
| 11:21.22 | ratrace | that's irrelevant. computers don't care about polite. humans that don't want to be ctcp'd should block it in their clients :) |
| 11:21.38 | ayekat | well, I get a notification whenever someone queries my client |
| 11:21.53 | colo-work | I get a dollar instead |
| 11:22.06 | colo-work | you should try that, too! |
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| 11:23.14 | millaus564578568 | Ciao a tutti :D |
| 11:25.53 | jelly | bets on !list happening |
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| 11:27.53 | live_ | https://packages.debian.org/stable/quassel only 6mb installed? is this accurate? on arch the dependancies are several 100mb large and even the quassel-client-small pkg is larger |
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| 11:29.25 | ayekat | live_: debian usually splits upstream software into multiple packages |
| 11:29.55 | ayekat | live_: arch just packages stuff mostly as-is, and only splits things up in extreme cases |
| 11:30.19 | jelly | live_: run "apt-get -s install packagename" to see what else would be installed as a dependency for packagename |
| 11:30.49 | live_ | so colo-work - I wrote /CTCP something VERSION (literal)...I whoised myself but still do not see something anywhere...where did you see my os-type? and where does the "something" get written/visible? |
| 11:31.37 | colo-work | live_, that depends on how your client presents that response (if "something" actually gave one) |
| 11:32.09 | ayekat | if you literally put 'something' there, it might not give much info (or some poor lad with that nickname just got annoyed) |
| 11:32.17 | live_ | right...I guess to budget how much space you'll need, or whether a package is too bulky for you, theres no other way to to try it in debian apt/synatic/etc...I was hoping to find it online |
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| 11:36.52 | StucKman_ | live_: the packages is 6MiB big, but the deps is a totally different story and it depends a lot on what you already have intalled |
| 11:37.41 | StucKman_ | live_: and in particular quassel itself is just a metapackage with no actual content |
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| 11:38.28 | StucKman_ | which depends on quassel-core and one of the clients |
| 11:38.43 | live_ | i know it depends...but some indication of how many mb of i.e. kde-vomit i need on a stock (gnome) debian install, at least a rough idea |
| 11:39.08 | live_ | would be useful if it exist(ed) |
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| 11:39.51 | StucKman_ | we can't tell, I have kde so installing quassel is a few mibs, for you on gnome might be several tens, hundreds of mibs |
| 11:40.17 | StucKman_ | and it depends whether you install the qt client or the kde one |
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| 11:40.36 | StucKman_ | and if you're so tight on space, just with irssi |
| 11:42.21 | live_ | wow...this CTCP version thin is ridiculously stupid security wise...you're literally running a debian kernel with symmetric multiprocessing on...like, the spectre vulnerable stuff. Why would irc clients ever reveal this stuff by default? Maybe its knowable either way to the right hacker, but still |
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| 11:42.22 | colo-work | or with ii - minimalist FIFO and filesystem-based IRC client |
| 11:42.57 | StucKman_ | live_: tell your client to be quiet about that |
| 11:43.20 | live_ | cill rtfm first but ty StucKman_ |
| 11:43.56 | StucKman_ | colo-work: OMG |
| 11:44.11 | StucKman_ | cill? |
| 11:44.42 | live_ | s/i will/cill |
| 11:45.03 | darxmurf | humpled: I don't think so, all users have the same group configuration and still, it's working well on some machines with the same username |
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| 11:45.55 | wakawako | what spectre vulnerable stuff? |
| 11:46.17 | ratrace | aka "Intel" |
| 11:46.28 | live_ | smp - openbsd were the first to turn it off by precaution and now GKH agrees |
| 11:46.48 | wakawako | and what isn´t vulnerable? |
| 11:46.54 | live_ | smp symmetric multiprocessing... |
| 11:47.08 | ratrace | actually GKH said OpenBSD disabled it but for the wrong reasons :) |
| 11:47.28 | live_ | in-order cores...anything cortex a53 based, say...maybe some risc-v cores like shakti |
| 11:47.44 | ratrace | so nothing anyone here is using? ;) |
| 11:47.48 | wakawako | how do you find this smp thing? |
| 11:48.07 | live_ | ratrace, in a tfir interview he said they were right after all, I have no other knowledge or context though |
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| 11:48.35 | live_ | isnt it a setting in bios? |
| 11:48.46 | live_ | wakawako, |
| 11:49.00 | ratrace | live_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI3YE3Jlgw8 |
| 11:49.06 | wakawako | dunno but if is, Iĺl check it out |
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| 11:50.58 | ratrace | wakawako: what do you mean how do you find it? also don't confuse SMP with SMT. the problem is SMThreading aka hyperthreading not SMP which is multiple cores or cpus |
| 11:51.07 | ratrace | live_: ^^^^ |
| 11:52.17 | epony | ratrace, which is a catch phrase but nothing close to the truth |
| 11:52.40 | epony | Greg did a smile on that saying, and a crooked one.. it's a publicity comment |
| 11:52.41 | live_ | wakawako, some old intel atoms - search for cherry trail and spectre and you should find a link mentioning which are safe (which are unsafe is in a level1tech 4+ page thread |
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| 11:53.13 | Piraty | tar on debian9 and debian10 misbehaves for me. using -z (--gzip) with -c leads to non-reproducable output. |
| 11:53.13 | Piraty | run this a few times: docker run --rm debian:stretch sh -c "tar --sort=name --owner=0 --group=0 --mtime='UTC 2000-01-01' -c /etc/os-release" | md5sum |
| 11:53.44 | epony | OpenBSD does the right things about security and reliability, and has been doing these things for many years, see https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html |
| 11:53.55 | epony | ratrace, so, the reasons are the right ones |
| 11:53.57 | live_ | ratrace what do you mean by those characters ..look at the yt link above? |
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| 11:54.37 | ratrace | live_: SMP means multiple cores and CPUs. SMT means hyperthreading. The problem is SMT. OpenBSD disables THAT, not SMP, not the ability to have more than one core |
| 11:54.38 | epony | the wrong ones are in Linux land waiting for the problems to appear and then start making changes, rather than understand there are problems and prevent them before the vulnerabilities hit the global install basee |
| 11:54.39 | live_ | oops ratrace...smp !=smt...my bad i think |
| 11:55.12 | epony | ratrace, you have to read more carefully what I outlined, don't go interpreting what you said ad nauseam |
| 11:55.25 | live_ | totally confusing though, im unapologetic |
| 11:55.26 | epony | it's not about multithreading at all |
| 11:55.50 | epony | it's about doing the right thing since the mid 90ies |
| 11:56.07 | herzlichweise | that must be why most people use it |
| 11:56.09 | epony | and being mostly invlunerable to every other MAJOR DAMAGE CVE |
| 11:56.45 | ratrace | live_: it is because they're calling it threading, while in reality it's specualative execution based trickery to execute opcodes from another execution thread while the first one is waiting for periphery |
| 11:56.46 | epony | herzlichweise, that's ironic, because the people who use it don't go screaming on the Internet "we use this" |
| 11:56.59 | herzlichweise | epony: ah |
| 11:57.02 | epony | oh |
| 11:57.15 | herzlichweise | undercover use |
| 11:57.17 | wakawako | what is the best thing to do if you got an intel cpu and possibly come into contact with something? |
| 11:57.23 | herzlichweise | top secret stuff |
| 11:57.37 | epony | So, Greg saying 'a bit for the wrong reasons' is a bit of misunderstanding of reasons. |
| 11:57.48 | plantroon | is there any good docs on d-i partman? I find it hard to understand. Is it even possible to do lvm on luks on raid with it? |
| 11:58.17 | epony | herzlichweise, I present you some information from the OpenBSD web page.. the rest is absolutely your interpretation :-) or lack of imagination interpreting it |
| 11:58.37 | herzlichweise | no, i tried openbsd twice in my life and it was painful |
| 11:58.40 | epony | herzlichweise, enjoy a good read if you like :-) |
| 11:59.07 | herzlichweise | i need a dummy proven desktop |
| 11:59.20 | live_ | epony have you seen/heard of that one guy at ccc who found 20+ vulns in openbsd in 2-3months? |
| 11:59.29 | epony | herzlichweise, I hope you did not get a missing finger or something while trying it.. it does not bite to install some software and test its applicability for your use case |
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| 11:59.48 | live_ | he also found 2-3x more on freebsd and netbsd, all at the same time |
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| 12:00.30 | epony | live_, if you're talking about Ilja Sprundel.. the information presented is OUTDATED at the time of presentation several years ago and mostly addresses inconsistency between the BSDs which are not distributions of a kernel but standalone projects producing operating systems that are not the same software |
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| 12:00.45 | epony | live_, so get more better information, your sources are outdated |
| 12:00.52 | Piraty | is there a dedicated channel for debian / docker development? |
| 12:01.11 | ratrace | live_: yea, that's one of those "no CVEs because nobody is looking for them" issues. |
| 12:01.17 | epony | live_, join #openbsd and ask your question if you have any doubts or lack information |
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| 12:01.37 | epony | ratrace, you be invited too, it's an open access channel |
| 12:01.43 | live_ | is no one noticing Piraty and plantroon? |
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| 12:02.09 | epony | and advise Greg to post to the OpenBSD mailing list if you want to see the right reasons stated properly for his own appreciation |
| 12:02.19 | humpled | but grinding axes is such fun |
| 12:02.35 | Piraty | live_: ;) |
| 12:02.40 | plantroon | live_: it's irc, not a paid support channel lol |
| 12:02.46 | dontask | killall gnome-shell is a good method to restart gnome shell. |
| 12:02.57 | epony | ratrace, if you call him GKH that person seen on the interview excerpt, of course |
| 12:03.04 | dontask | Is there a better method? |
| 12:03.13 | Piraty | dontask: apt remove systemd |
| 12:03.16 | live_ | step on it boys...some nicknames need helping! |
| 12:03.16 | herzlichweise | GKH is my hero |
| 12:03.19 | epony | ratrace, to me that looked like a Greg |
| 12:03.38 | herzlichweise | does he use openbsd? |
| 12:03.46 | ratrace | lolno |
| 12:03.52 | epony | yeah, but he is not part of OpenBSD and probably does not understand reasoning for the decisions OpenBSD project makes.. |
| 12:04.25 | epony | you have to ask him, I think he misspoke in public for grabbing attention 'a bit for the right reasons' |
| 12:04.40 | herzlichweise | problem for me is: bsd devel runs on 50 mph and the linux devel at 100 or more |
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| 12:05.14 | herzlichweise | so i can use the technology of 5-10 years in the past |
| 12:05.17 | herzlichweise | great? |
| 12:05.18 | epony | I'll let you do your knowledgeable comments and comparison in the privacy of this fine IRC channel ;-) |
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| 12:05.33 | epony | just next time you mention the right reasons, think about https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html |
| 12:05.38 | herzlichweise | openbsd does not speak usability at all |
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| 12:06.08 | patavat | LOL |
| 12:06.12 | epony | It's your own opinion, the innovation points are there for all open software community users and developers to benefit from if they can |
| 12:06.13 | plantroon | openbsd is heresy, use debian |
| 12:06.14 | epony | :-) |
| 12:06.18 | ratrace | herzlichweise: openbsd is a nice experimental security oriented OS, but not something i'd ever put into production. it lacks mitigation mechanisms like MAC or jails/containers |
| 12:06.33 | voices | what's the difference between a .deb and a .tar.gz? is a .deb just a nicely wrapped archive? does it do anything else? |
| 12:06.34 | ratrace | debian ftw :) |
| 12:06.38 | herzlichweise | <3 |
| 12:07.10 | epony | So, if you know what you're talking :-) use open and free software that works for your usage model and don't knock on other projects helping your project to be resilient too. |
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| 12:07.28 | herzlichweise | i speak as dummy user not as computer scientist |
| 12:07.37 | epony | That is self obviating. |
| 12:07.57 | ratrace | voices: https://www.quora.com/What-is-difference-between-zip-rar-deb-and-tar-files |
| 12:08.06 | epony | Point made, now enjoy the rest of the discussion without my intermission.. have fun. |
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| 12:08.33 | herzlichweise | epony: :) |
| 12:08.39 | live_ | totally enjoying the offtopic disc. as I couldnt join openbsd as unreg today lol |
| 12:08.39 | epony | by-by, Debian affectionate users and dedicated fans |
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| 12:09.03 | plantroon | debian is the only real os, most others are just experiments and beta tests. I run Debian on Raspberry Pi, my Libreboot Thinkpad X200, 100 prod servers, a gaming pc and soon maybe my phone. Other OSes are joke |
| 12:09.20 | epony | sure.. now catch you later, fishes |
| 12:09.30 | voices | seems it just contains a data archive and instructions like a make file |
| 12:09.31 | epony | and happy hacking |
| 12:09.56 | Ede|Popede | voices: .deb is an oldstyle ar archive. contains 2 compressed tarballs and a small text file, no magic. you can use 'ar x $debfile' to extract it all |
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| 12:10.09 | ratrace | voices: that's just contents, I thought oyu were asking about the format differences |
| 12:10.14 | live_ | why doesnt debian implement doas...especially after the last cve 2 days ago...y does sudo default to root (user 0) when shit hits the fan...thats a recipe for priv escalation |
| 12:10.32 | ratrace | live_: you do realize doas has had CVEs within a month of release? :) so much for "correct code" |
| 12:10.35 | live_ | doas is openbsd's safer sudo alt |
| 12:11.14 | voices | live_: what was that cve you mentioned |
| 12:11.18 | ratrace | replacing sudo with doas would be replacing one well known, well understood, widely used program with a barely known, fresh, still vulnerable despite claims, program that only a tiny group of users is using. |
| 12:11.20 | live_ | ratrace i dont know much but im more concerned if its structurally safer now |
| 12:11.22 | epony | keep polishing.. |
| 12:11.27 | epony | it might shine :-) |
| 12:11.47 | plantroon | well I have never seen priv escalation from correctly configured sudo. Also best recipe for security is keeping things simple. |
| 12:12.01 | ratrace | well there was this last vuln from few days ago |
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| 12:12.12 | ayekat | uid -1 |
| 12:12.12 | Fox | epony: every major distro has its pros and cons, no need to argue for month, end of story |
| 12:12.24 | live_ | sudo with user -1 default to 0 = root under rare circumstances |
| 12:12.31 | live_ | voices |
| 12:12.41 | epony | yeah, Debian randomisation is not one of its pros.. or at least weren't |
| 12:12.50 | ratrace | voices: CVE-2019-14287 |
| 12:12.51 | Fox | live_: very rare circumstances, who uses (ALL, !root) anyway ? |
| 12:12.57 | epony | but I guess you all know the facts |
| 12:13.16 | epony | just the wrong reasons are a misquote :-) |
| 12:13.44 | live_ | fox the long term solution is simple...dont default to root |
| 12:14.05 | wakawako | will a bios replacement or similar stop a possible meltdown/spectre attack on an already attacked system? |
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| 12:14.43 | voices | oh you need sudoer access anyway |
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| 12:16.08 | voices | so, can i separate the compnents of a .deb |
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| 12:17.15 | live_ | wakawako, teeechnicallly malware could get put into chips and other "microstorage" where firmware resides....if spectre allowed reading root password say, they can gain admin and APT your firmware |
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| 12:17.25 | Fox | voices: what does that mean ? |
| 12:17.50 | wakawako | how do you remove it entirely? |
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| 12:18.46 | plantroon | wakawako: not even bios replacement, like libreboot, prevents meltdown/spectre. It is pure cpu/microcode thing. |
| 12:18.51 | plantroon | Remove what? The vulns? |
| 12:18.56 | voices | Ede|Popede: is that what you meant with ar x |
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| 12:19.44 | Fox | voices: dpkg -x |
| 12:19.48 | wakawako | can you reset the cpu/microcode part? |
| 12:20.17 | Fox | wakawako: did you check what you where vulnerable to ? check /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/ |
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| 12:20.23 | Ede|Popede | voices: yep. not sure if `dpkg -x` does exactly the same, lemme check |
| 12:20.24 | Fox | s/where/were/ |
| 12:21.00 | wakawako | hah |
| 12:21.08 | ratrace | wakawako: keep in mind those vulnerabilities are important to you only if you're running (in) public clouds, otherwise they're probably not that significant. |
| 12:21.51 | wakawako | I´m afraid something like that has happened to my computer |
| 12:22.18 | ratrace | something like what? spectre/meltdown are infoleak class of vulns, they don't change or otherwise affect your computer. |
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| 12:22.42 | Ede|Popede | Fox, voices: `dpkg -x` unpacks data.tar.xz, leaves everything else untouched. so not really the same. |
| 12:22.54 | Piraty | ratrace: you're talking about the bad doas right? |
| 12:22.57 | Fox | good to know, thanx |
| 12:23.13 | live_ | ratrace (or others) - do you know if spectre (maybe its timing aspects of side-channel attacks) is related to race conditions? google is fuzzing the kernel for race conditions recently and finding tons of "bugs" (dont call them cves ;) ) |
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| 12:23.16 | millaus564578568 | saaalve!!! |
| 12:23.21 | Piraty | there are other ones: https://github.com/slicer69/doas/issues/4 |
| 12:23.23 | ratrace | Piraty: ? |
| 12:23.50 | Ede|Popede | voices: btw, i always compared .deb to .jar. which techicalle are ZIP archives, only with a predefined layout. |
| 12:24.06 | voices | Ede|Popede: that's interesting |
| 12:24.09 | Piraty | .deb is ar |
| 12:24.13 | Ede|Popede | yep |
| 12:24.42 | Piraty | in fact, dpkg requires a specific order of debian-binary, data.tar.gz and control.tar.gz (which is rediculous) |
| 12:24.44 | Ede|Popede | no need to reinvent the wheel if there's already a working solution which could be used. |
| 12:24.47 | wakawako | there was something I clicked onto I dunno was just a trojan or a whole heap of other things that involved one of those domain names that is associated with the vulnerability thing |
| 12:24.56 | ratrace | live_: you can say so yes, but it's completely different from what google is fuzzing |
| 12:25.12 | voices | so which way should i disect it? |
| 12:25.47 | voices | i just want to see if i can extract the info in a .deb and use it to install from source the same way with a .tar.gz |
| 12:26.17 | voices | or see if there are any additional steps etc |
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| 12:27.49 | voices | compiling from source, i ran into errors, but installing a deb for the same release worked fine, so i just wana check why |
| 12:28.10 | voices | does that make sense |
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| 12:29.17 | RoyK | voices: when compiling a package, you need the header files to help compile it all |
| 12:29.24 | RoyK | header files for libs in use etc |
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| 12:31.11 | live_ | so does anyone else here feel that the latest kernel should be debianized and available in the repo (at least experimental or unstable) - and if not, what instability issues have you had or heard of with the latest upstream lts kernel. Arch installs break once a year and they're not even lts, but full blown current kernel |
| 12:31.45 | dvs | ,kernels |
| 12:31.46 | judd | Available kernel versions are: experimental: 5.3.0-trunk-686-pae (5.3.2-1~exp1); sid: 5.2.0-3-686 (5.2.17-1); bullseye: 5.2.0-3-686 (5.2.17-1); buster-backports: 5.2.0-0.bpo.3-686-pae (5.2.17-1~bpo10+1); buster: 4.19.0-6-686 (4.19.67-2+deb10u1); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.19.67-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.9.0-11-686-pae (4.9.189-3+deb9u1); jessie-backports: |
| 12:31.47 | judd | 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.11-686-pae (4.9.189-3+deb9u1~deb8u1) |
| 12:32.14 | RoyK | live_: last time I had to compile a kernel or a driver, which is years back, it was a missing driver or some bug. Normally, nothing like that is needed unless you have very specific needs |
| 12:32.17 | live_ | latest *LTS* upstream kernel...its just bugfixes and security fixes appanrently...like firefox esr, which is standard on debian |
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| 12:32.38 | Ede|Popede | Piraty: seems the 'debian-binary' must come first, followed by control. without the text at the beginning `file` only sees an ar archive, dpkg-deb needs the completely correct order. i guess the reason is the same as for the streaming formats: no need to get (or read locally) the whole file to see the most important bits. |
| 12:33.23 | live_ | RoyK so are you saying a linux foundation lts kernel in binary should be fine? |
| 12:34.17 | live_ | i didnt mention compiling at all, though debian can CI autobuild it as they are released and make it into binary deb pkg |
| 12:34.48 | RoyK | live_: just use the standard kernel |
| 12:34.59 | RoyK | live_: then, if something doesn't work, try to fix it |
| 12:35.06 | Ede|Popede | voices: if you're talking of .tar.gz and mean the download from upstream, forget it. usually debian changes things and often splits up packages. you'd better start with packages.debian.org - see the right sidebar on a package's page and there should also be a .dsc file and one with diffs. or grab the source file directly. |
| 12:35.43 | live_ | standard debian kernel 4.19.67andchange? |
| 12:35.55 | live_ | -2-deb101 or something |
| 12:36.16 | RoyK | live_: what's wrong with the default kernel? |
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| 12:36.33 | live_ | its almost a month old...while google and others are finding tons of bugs...several security related each 4.19.x release |
| 12:36.49 | RoyK | live_: bugfixes are backported |
| 12:37.08 | RoyK | live_: you don't need a new kernel - it probably has more bugs than the old one anywy |
| 12:37.33 | live_ | obviously you're vulnerable for an entire month while people try to reproduce a use-after-free as mentioned in kernel.org commits |
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| 12:37.45 | live_ | seems like ample time for people in the know... |
| 12:38.00 | RoyK | live_: well, go on, it's your machine(s) |
| 12:38.21 | RoyK | but as I said - critical fixes are *backported* to the current kernel |
| 12:38.37 | live_ | lts *IS* the old kernel...its like firefox esr...do you want to run firefox 52 right now? or even firefox 65? |
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| 12:38.59 | RoyK | new releases will always include a lot of highly interesting bugs noone knows anything about |
| 12:39.02 | RoyK | which is fun |
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| 12:39.29 | live_ | royk are you a dev? it would be interesting to understand if debian devs (with voting) want this or not and why? |
| 12:39.30 | Ede|Popede | is bug hunting considered e-sports? |
| 12:39.30 | ratrace | live_: LTS kernels get backported fixes and sometimes not just fixes, upstream |
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| 12:40.21 | RoyK | live_: no, I'm not a kernel developer, but hey, I've only been using linux for 25 years or so, so I've picked up a thing or two on the way |
| 12:40.45 | live_ | Has anyone read lts commits on release - theres like 40 per point release...most of them look like theyre solving things, not adding features |
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| 12:41.11 | RoyK | live_: which is normal, and usually those fixes aren't in parts you're using anyway |
| 12:41.38 | ratrace | live_: and that's true but sometimes they backport stuff they shouldn't, like the political GPL symbol exports stuff that broke ZFS for Debian's LTS kernel, so Debian had to patch out SIMD support......... |
| 12:41.52 | ratrace | they = upstream kernel maintainers, not debian devs |
| 12:42.17 | ratrace | GKH is having hiccups now.... |
| 12:42.49 | live_ | ratrace - what kind of upstream? features added from current 5.3.6 branch say? I dont see any/many and itd be nice to know why? could you give examples that you dont think are bug or secu related? |
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| 12:43.26 | ratrace | live_: I just mentioned the GPL symbol export thing from 5.x that broke ZFS on 4.19 |
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| 12:44.46 | Lope | do you guys have any tricks for setting up a remote server? |
| 12:45.08 | nvz | Lope: like pulling one out of a hat? |
| 12:45.09 | live_ | ratrace ty - so maybe an LTS subjected occasionally to debian policy compliance? |
| 12:45.37 | Lope | I'm concerned if I make a mistake I'll have to ask the DC to connect their shitty KVM to the server, and then I have to wait maybe 30-45 mins, and then peer into a piece of crap KVM and type over a half broken console. It's just painful. |
| 12:45.45 | live_ | like a firefox trademark issue slightly delaying an upgrade while we bake up an iceweasel trademark? |
| 12:45.52 | jak2000 | hi, why not shutdown the server? |
| 12:45.56 | ratrace | live_: the problem is caused upstream, not in debian though. Debian is backporting security fixes during the lifetime of a point release, and on point release the kernel version is rebased to a higher upstream version, rinse, repeat. |
| 12:46.01 | Lope | Last time I did a remote installation I had to do 3 hail mary's praise allah and jahoval etc and luckily I got it all right. |
| 12:46.02 | jak2000 | see my crotab and bash script: https://paste.debian.net/1108003/ |
| 12:46.20 | Lope | But I'm wondering if it might be easier to setup my server as a VM locally then just DD it over? |
| 12:46.24 | nvz | Lope: thats what pagans get.. praying to any god who'll listen :P |
| 12:46.33 | live_ | its still better than being 4 versions behind (5.3.3 was skipped i think) on experimental |
| 12:46.53 | ratrace | Lope: I developed my ansible installation procedures with a local VM acting as a remote. I was lucky that it just worked on our rented dedicated machines. |
| 12:47.10 | ratrace | Lope: but even if you aren't, by preparing everythign with a VM you'd have less stuff to fix through KVM |
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| 12:47.24 | live_ | for something that should be in stable if you know what I think...solus is considered for beginners and runs lts, so do gentoo and sort-of slackware... |
| 12:47.28 | n_1-c_k | Lope, do you not have remote serial console access? |
| 12:47.51 | Lope | ratrace, I think that's a brilliant idea, to prepare a VM and do everything by a script |
| 12:47.55 | Lope | So I won't forget anything. |
| 12:47.57 | ratrace | live_: you'll have to define "better". I got bitten on gentoo by ZFS corruption bugs because I tracked latest possible LTS |
| 12:48.06 | Lope | Or even just having a list of commands step by step that's tested. |
| 12:48.16 | Lope | n_1-c_k, no serial |
| 12:48.31 | n_1-c_k | Lope, oh! You need a better hoster. |
| 12:48.31 | Lope | Just some shitty webconsole, that I have to order, wait for, and then only allowed to use for an hour |
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| 12:48.40 | ratrace | live_: so I really do prefer a few versions older, but more tested. Debian backports important security fixes anyway. |
| 12:48.40 | Lope | meh, whatever |
| 12:49.45 | karlpinc | jak2000: How do you know the server is not shutting down? |
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| 12:49.50 | live_ | ratrace: yes but the last backport was 3 weeks ago iirc thats a long time compared to the lts cycle (2-7 days), opensuse (similar, 2-3 times a week) and probably others I havent checked like RH and ubuntu which have tons of point release judging by the long vers. #s i see |
| 12:50.35 | karlpinc | Lope: What is it that's going to kill your ssh access? How is it that you've got anything to connect to at all if there's no installation? |
| 12:50.48 | Lope | I need to learn how to setup drop dropbear now. it's the only step I've never done. Last time I looked online I couldn't find much decent looking straight forward guides. |
| 12:50.49 | live_ | like I said...I really wanted to hear horror stories, even if hearsay, of how bad and how often the lts kernel is not acceptable |
| 12:50.50 | Lope | <ratrace> Lope: this is the initramfs network setup from our ansible plays. Guess you'll figure out what goes where: https://dpaste.de/TZn7 |
| 12:50.53 | jak2000 | karlpinc with ping |
| 12:50.58 | Lope | ratrace, sorry bud, your paste got removed |
| 12:51.04 | Lope | do you mind pasting again? |
| 12:51.28 | Lope | <ratrace> Lope: and these two from the installation script: https://dpaste.de/abOs |
| 12:51.46 | karlpinc | jak2000: You're asking it to reboot so it's going to be able to ping after it restarts. |
| 12:52.08 | Lope | karlpinc, I've installed the remote server, but then ratrace convinced me to do FDE, so now I have to nuke it and setup FDE. |
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| 12:52.34 | ratrace | live_: but Debian is rebasing on point releases, and between them it's backporting important security fixes. |
| 12:52.38 | Lope | This was like 3 months ago, I was just too busy to finish it until now. |
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| 12:52.51 | ratrace | live_: which means you shoulnd't look at the version number because it means less and less as the time passes |
| 12:53.07 | ratrace | Lope: what was the context of that? What was pastebin'd ? |
| 12:53.33 | Lope | ratrace, I was asking for info to help me setup dropbear |
| 12:54.34 | live_ | ratrace https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/l/linux-latest/linux-latest_105+deb10u1_changelog |
| 12:54.35 | karlpinc | Lope: Read /usr/share/doc/cryptsetup/README.Debian.gz |
| 12:55.07 | live_ | thats a LOOOONG time for security updates....how many days you wait to update anything else you know to be vulnerable? |
| 12:55.54 | ratrace | Lope: this? https://dpaste.de/0HfE/raw |
| 12:56.40 | ratrace | live_: that's not the right changelog |
| 12:56.46 | Lope | karlpinc: ls /usr/share/doc/cryptsetup/ changelog.Debian.gz changelog.gz copyright NEWS.Debian.gz |
| 12:56.55 | live_ | i think someone said yesterday the latest bugfix by debian was less than a month ago...so more recent the aug26 for 4.19.06 (.67 upstream) |
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| 12:57.06 | ratrace | live_: https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/l/linux-signed-amd64/linux-signed-amd64_4.19.67+2+deb10u1_changelog |
| 12:57.08 | Lope | karlpinc, (on buster) |
| 12:58.21 | ratrace | live_: also, I'm not having a false sense of security thinking that by having the very latest LTS patches make me invulnerable. Linux kernel is unfortunately a very insecure thing and I'd rather put accent on mitigating vectors that can exploit those vulns AND good intrusion detection to know when I failed with the first. |
| 12:59.00 | karlpinc | Lope: Humm. I'm on stretch. But https://sources.debian.org/src/cryptsetup/2:2.1.0-5+deb10u2/debian/README.Debian/ So it should be there. |
| 12:59.31 | ratrace | live_: with that you must realize that Debian prioritizes things like RCE, but local priv escalations, while important, can be mitigated to certain extent and are maybe not prioritized the same. |
| 13:00.02 | live_ | good intrusion detection? you mean corruptible binary logs? an attacker would IMHO try to corupt the logs so you dont know what hit you...and yes, on your firewall/gateway/hw-proxy/pihole or whatever too |
| 13:00.06 | karlpinc | live_: It is also important to spend the time to know that no regressions are introduced. |
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| 13:01.11 | Ilgaz | Is there a big change in Debian "testing" ISO regarding install process of grub? |
| 13:01.30 | live_ | im pretty sure server downtime isnt as bad as an equifax scandal |
| 13:01.43 | ratrace | live_: I offload logs to external server via syslog-ng, and btw intrusion detection is not only about logs ;) |
| 13:01.53 | live_ | or any major data leak scandal...not any attack in particular |
| 13:02.18 | Ilgaz | Even with dedicated free space, installer of 10.1 gets confused in installing grub step, tries to install grub2 to "dummy" etc. I thought I better report this |
| 13:02.33 | ratrace | !debian next |
| 13:02.40 | karlpinc | Ilgaz: 10.1 is not testing. |
| 13:02.41 | ratrace | pshaw |
| 13:02.56 | ratrace | !debian-next |
| 13:02.56 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. |
| 13:03.00 | live_ | snort-like IDS IPS? monitoring (nagios?) file change monitoring... |
| 13:03.06 | karlpinc | Ilgaz: There is also, iirc, #debian-installer |
| 13:03.33 | Ilgaz | karlpinc: oh I know, 10.1 is the stable. I thought I better test testing first so I see if it still fails. OK joining that channel |
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| 13:03.44 | live_ | does this all work? where do I find filters that get rid of all that time consuming noise...only AI can spot an attack, in my view |
| 13:04.46 | live_ | ratrace |
| 13:05.13 | ratrace | live_: we don't use snort, and there's a multitude of monitoring going on, real-time forwarded syslog, files integrity checks, etc... |
| 13:05.16 | karlpinc | live_: This is all pretty abstract. Perhaps take it to #debian-offtopic if you're going to talk about security in the general case. |
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| 13:07.53 | Ilgaz | I remember Debian specifically asked us to check 10.1 installer with EFI-Secure boot on but at those times, I couldn't boot into any kind of Linux kernel because of https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205237 |
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| 13:08.22 | Ilgaz | Now I am finally able to boot and test things, it got shipped of course :-) |
| 13:08.30 | Lope | guys I've been running a laptop as a server. For some unknown reason it powers itself off randomly every 7~30 days |
| 13:08.45 | live_ | ok...does anyone know a good linux kernel version tracker...because neither distrowatch nor repology.org nor automatically generated filelist (?) files seem to care about what comes after 4.19.67 with debian...it makes it really hard to keep up with debian's kernel's without going to debians bts or whatnot |
| 13:08.46 | Lope | Sorry, 1~30 days. But usually every 14-30 days |
| 13:09.13 | Lope | Does that sound like a hardware issue or software issue? |
| 13:09.20 | Ilgaz | Lope: I'd suspect power and thermal |
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| 13:09.36 | Lope | Ilgaz, well, it's a laptop, so power shouldn't be an issue? |
| 13:09.46 | Ilgaz | Is battery working OK? I mean able to hold like 5 mins? |
| 13:09.48 | Lope | thermal is possible. I should monitor the temps. |
| 13:10.06 | Lope | battery can run for 1h 20 mins |
| 13:10.19 | Ilgaz | Good, |
| 13:10.27 | Lope | I've tested letting it run for 20 mins regularly, uses 26% battery |
| 13:10.33 | Ilgaz | could be cpu overheat |
| 13:10.47 | Lope | Okay, I'll do more monitoring. |
| 13:10.59 | live_ | karipinc...sure, but I was trying to get a feel for whether devs/voters or other users would value an up-to-date lts kernel in the repos somewhere. I would put it there, but Im guessing theres redtape/voting preventing |
| 13:11.16 | live_ | is offtopic the best place for that? |
| 13:11.49 | Ilgaz | live_: If you report a kernel bug, they generally ask you to update to latest. They asked me to update to 5.3-rc3 in my case on Ubuntu |
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| 13:11.56 | karlpinc | live_: I suspect there's a mailing list. |
| 13:12.09 | Ilgaz | but of course, I lost a lot of dkms etc functionality |
| 13:12.35 | karlpinc | Lope: You could try running memtest86+ overnight to bring (some) things up to temperature. You get ram checking out of it at the same time. :-) |
| 13:13.22 | Lope | karlpinc, I've run a ramtest already when I first set it up, but perhaps a re-test would be good. |
| 13:13.33 | live_ | ligaz are you saying debian kernel maintainers told you to install an ubuntu rc kernel? |
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| 13:14.08 | Ilgaz | live_: lol not, it is just like browser developers asking you to install latest nightly so they can figure if the bug is already fixed. |
| 13:14.15 | live_ | instead of updating the debian kernel to solve the cve? |
| 13:14.19 | ratrace | live_: "whether devs/voters or other users would value an up-to-date lts kernel in the repos somewhere" --- I personally wouldn't. |
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| 13:15.28 | Ilgaz | live_: a lot of people choose Debian because it doesn't update kernel to latest fresh version. That is my observation. They generally backport the CVE to the current kernel or check if it is relevant |
| 13:15.33 | Lope | karlpinc, I dunno if this is relevant but the LAN cable was running tightly parallel to a power cable (yeah installed by people who don't know what they're doing) I've moved it now so it's got a decent lan cable connection and is also on a dual conversion UPS vs just being connected to AC. |
| 13:15.52 | live_ | ratrace - ok anyone else? |
| 13:16.04 | Lope | It's also in a cooler environment. So yeah, will see. |
| 13:16.33 | dvs | live_, if I wanted a more recent kernel, I'd compile it myself. |
| 13:17.01 | ratrace | also recent kernels are available via backports and from sid |
| 13:17.23 | Ilgaz | There is a story at Cray faq about someone plugging a vacuum cleaner to $30 M computer power outlet every night and Cray having to get rid of power outlets for testing equipment |
| 13:18.10 | live_ | https://lwn.net/Articles/791855/ most bugs that can lead to vulns (like cve's) dont get a cve, but may still be exploitable...also, read the Everything is broken article on medium |
| 13:18.48 | live_ | Iigaz dvs ratrace |
| 13:18.49 | ratrace | live_: yes, which is why GKH and friends want us all to run latest stable (upstream lingo "stable" which isn't debian kind of "stable") kernels |
| 13:19.20 | Ilgaz | Well they take security very seriously as far as I followed so I wouldn't worry. They will update one way or another |
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| 13:19.48 | ratrace | live_: there's a talk by GKH how LTS kernels are being neglected, even if you think you're running latest LTS point release, it's still lagging in fixes behind latest stable. |
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| 13:20.36 | ratrace | then again GKH and friends are detached from reality where systems need testing and stability which means lagging a lot in version |
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| 13:20.55 | live_ | ok ill take this up with #security and see if anyone agrees. |
| 13:22.06 | live_ | ratrace lagging with undefined behavior type bugs and such? or just sound cards not recognized bugs |
| 13:22.40 | ratrace | live_: lagging with feedback-loop'd changes that need more testing which takes time which makes you lagged, which.... rinse and repeat |
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| 13:23.52 | ratrace | but like I said... I tracked latest upstream LTS. Literally updated the kernel minutes or hours after upstream release. That didn't fare well. |
| 13:24.15 | jelly | live_: if you need reliable kernel security, your company might have to pay up for grsecurity patches. |
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| 13:24.42 | jelly | but none of this is Debian specific |
| 13:24.51 | live_ | ratrace the recent 5.3.3 was a typo...they skipped a number and he corrected in minutes, but nothing was breaking |
| 13:25.20 | ratrace | live_: how do you know that? you asked each and every user on the planet if 5.3.3 broke something for them? ;) |
| 13:26.23 | live_ | ratrace the NUMBERING skipped ahead...maybe you have a version number range in mind i can look for in lkml? |
| 13:26.42 | ratrace | live_: not sure what you're referring ot |
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| 13:27.21 | nunllk | Im trying to setup kdump right, so that it will trigger on a kernel panic that i trigger manually by `echo "c" | sudo tee -a /proc/sysrq-trigger`. Every time i trigger it the system will just freeze forever and the only way out is the reset button. Which settings can this be related to, what can be setup wrong? |
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| 13:28.16 | nunllk | i have already tried different settings in kdump-tools config, the grub config and sysctl.conf dont know what to try nextr |
| 13:28.20 | live_ | jelly I think the fact that for a while both GKH and Linus felt the bugs were potentially security issues and required updating and "criticized" (diplomatically maybe maybe not) many backported distros of which debian amongst the slowest to update. (dont mention crux, im talking the major distros) |
| 13:29.24 | live_ | i guess the question is...do you feel opensuse or ubuntu are unstable? cuz theyre constantly updating, not waiting weeks |
| 13:29.29 | Ilgaz | I have the perfect kernel issue , thank God it is not security related. This machine will freeze any Linux kernel without feedback unless you pass "acpi=" to kernel |
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| 13:29.53 | Ilgaz | live_: I just installed Ubuntu LTS, it is not that up to date |
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| 13:30.14 | Ilgaz | For most of server etc guys, LTS is the Ubuntu. Not the newer non LTS ones |
| 13:30.19 | nunllk | @Ilgaz is that related to my question too? |
| 13:30.38 | Ilgaz | nunllk: sorry I am not that advanced to answer your question |
| 13:30.56 | nunllk | ok |
| 13:31.39 | live_ | https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20191001070738.GC2893807@kroah.com/ |
| 13:31.39 | live_ | <PROTECTED> |
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| 13:32.16 | jelly | live_: this channel focuses on actual tech support question, if there are support questions around, best move non-support convos to #debian-offtopic |
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| 13:39.38 | voices | Ede|Popede: it's this deb here, it's not from apt, and apt says it's an unsupported file, which seems weird |
| 13:39.41 | voices | https://cdn.azul.com/zulu/bin/zulu8.40.0.25-ca-jre8.0.222-linux_amd64.deb |
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| 13:40.09 | jelly | voices: what does "dpkg -I zulu8.40.0.25-ca-jre8.0.222-linux_amd64.deb" say |
| 13:40.14 | karlpinc | nunllk: I have no idea. I'm thinking you might get more info if you worked from the console. |
| 13:40.16 | voices | lemme check! |
| 13:40.25 | jelly | note that uppercase I |
| 13:41.31 | voices | i see that, because i tried it with lowercase earlier. which field would you like? it has a few too many lines to paste |
| 13:41.54 | karlpinc | !paste |
| 13:41.54 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: http://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: http://file.io/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): http://file.io or http://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>. |
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| 13:43.05 | jelly | voices: ALL OF THEM |
| 13:44.59 | jelly | voices: I downloaded the deb and it looks just fine |
| 13:45.23 | jelly | you will need to show the complete output of that "apt says it's an unsupported file" |
| 13:45.24 | voices | http://paste.debian.net/plain/1108016 |
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| 13:46.20 | voices | oh for that it just says: E: Unsupported file ./zulu8.42.0.21-ca-jre8.0.222-linux_amd64.deb given on commandline |
| 13:46.34 | Lope | can you put a partition table inside LUKS? |
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| 13:46.52 | karlpinc | Lope: Yup. |
| 13:46.56 | jelly | voices: and which command line does that? |
| 13:47.22 | CladnPink | https://www.bitchute.com/video/Wyw5hoZf8sAP/ Dr. Xxxxxx mutilated my sexual organs |
| 13:47.24 | karlpinc | Lope: Many people will instead make the LUKS volume a LVM physical volume. |
| 13:47.27 | jelly | voices: note that file name you just showed E: output for is different from the one you showed URL for previously. |
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| 13:48.22 | karlpinc | Lope: Works like a partition table, but you can resize things more easily, etc. As with a regular partition table you have only a single key to unlock everything. |
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| 13:51.12 | voices | jelly: oh, wow. thanks. |
| 13:51.12 | voices | you know when you stare at a problem for so long it all starts to look the same? |
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| 13:52.28 | g0zzy | I'm wondering why a mail has been on the queue (exim4) for 12 mins when the queue is configured to run every 3 min? It's not frozen |
| 13:52.38 | greycat | check the logs |
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| 13:57.20 | Lope | karlpinc, yes, but I'm planning to have ZFS and all the ZFS guys think ZFS on LVM is the antichrist. |
| 13:57.28 | ratrace | it is. |
| 13:57.51 | jelly | Lope: if you're going to have zfs, why do you need partitions? |
| 13:57.55 | Lope | hehe, so a partition table inside LUKS is what it has to be to not anger the gods. |
| 13:58.46 | Lope | jelly, I need 1GB for a HDD based ZFS SLOG, then I need x GB for HDD based L2ARC, then the rest is going to be a SSD based zpool |
| 13:59.10 | Lope | I could use multiple luks volumes, one per partition |
| 13:59.34 | Lope | but why not just unlock a single luks volume with a partition table inside it. Seems cleaner. |
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| 14:00.28 | ratrace | Lope: "HDD" based? lolwut? where's the benefit of that? |
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| 14:01.22 | jelly | Lope: is this for a lab/experimentation? |
| 14:01.25 | Lope | Ah, when I say HDD based, I mean the zpool's data is stored on HDD, sorry that was unclear. |
| 14:01.32 | Lope | jelly, for production |
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| 14:03.52 | ratrace | Lope: ah, ok |
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| 14:06.58 | riezaizu | Is it possible to force a program to start swapping? I have firefox on 2.6G and swap at 0.18G right now |
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| 14:15.40 | ratrace | riezaizu: no. but it's possible to adjust how agressive the kernel is in general about swapping, with the vm.swappiness sysctl |
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| 14:15.59 | ratrace | a higher number will cause more pages to be swapped sooner than a lower number would. |
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| 14:17.24 | riezaizu | Does changing vm.swappiness require a reboot? |
| 14:17.40 | beavis | no |
| 14:17.44 | riezaizu | OK, will try. |
| 14:18.05 | beavis | you could do swapoff -a && swapon -a |
| 14:18.16 | riezaizu | How can I find the max value for vm.swappiness? |
| 14:18.16 | beavis | but idk is that required as well |
| 14:18.28 | beavis | the max value is 2000 |
| 14:18.30 | beavis | 1000 |
| 14:18.31 | beavis | 100 |
| 14:18.32 | beavis | * |
| 14:18.36 | beavis | 100* |
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| 14:18.40 | riezaizu | lol |
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| 14:19.00 | beavis | lol |
| 14:19.05 | beavis | max value is 100 |
| 14:19.16 | beavis | it's basicallly 0-100 |
| 14:19.32 | riezaizu | Thanks |
| 14:19.51 | riezaizu | Doesn't seem to help much, swap is sitting at 0.22G |
| 14:19.58 | beavis | less you asssign to it the less system will use swap |
| 14:20.10 | ratrace | riezaizu: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysctl/vm.txt ctrl-f: swappiness |
| 14:20.16 | beavis | then you have inproperly set swap |
| 14:20.42 | ratrace | riezaizu: how much do you think it should be? |
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| 14:20.58 | riezaizu | beavis, how so? swap works just fine, sometimes it gets used but other times when firefox sits at ~2.5G (with 4G available total) swap doesn't get used |
| 14:21.10 | riezaizu | The problem being that using 2.5G in firefox slows everything down |
| 14:21.15 | ratrace | and why, more precisely. the kernel decides to page out (Swap out) unused memory pages. swappiness only alters the heuristics by which the kernel deems pages unused. |
| 14:21.19 | beavis | then set it to 60 |
| 14:21.21 | riezaizu | I want to swap unused memory in firefox |
| 14:21.27 | riezaizu | beavis, it was at 60 |
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| 14:21.33 | ratrace | riezaizu: raise it to 80 |
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| 14:21.37 | ratrace | 90 even |
| 14:21.38 | riezaizu | ratrace, it's on 100 |
| 14:21.45 | ratrace | riezaizu: then those pages are NOT unused |
| 14:21.48 | beavis | that's the defau;t value and works well for most systems |
| 14:22.04 | jhutchins_wk | Swap is not something you ordinarily need to mess with. The system will often take advantage of it, the only time it's a problem is if you're seeing lots of swap transactions. On a desktop that's often not a problem but it will kill a web server. |
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| 14:22.54 | jelly | riezaizu: the only way I know of is to do it indirectly -- run a different app that allocates more RAM and does not let it go, eg. "memtester" (the userspace tool. Different from memtest86) |
| 14:23.19 | ubuking | hello |
| 14:23.45 | jhutchins_wk | riezaizu: Why do you think there is a problem? (I missed some scroll) |
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| 14:24.05 | riezaizu | jhutchins_wk, firefox starts to slow down (a lot) at around 2.4G memory usage |
| 14:24.23 | beavis | get more memory |
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| 14:24.41 | riezaizu | beavis, sure let me download some ram |
| 14:24.43 | beavis | 8GB is really ok for most systems |
| 14:25.23 | SerajewelKS | forcing it to swap probably won't even fix the problem |
| 14:25.43 | ratrace | riezaizu: do you have swapping IO when that happens? |
| 14:25.53 | riezaizu | ratrace, what do you mean? |
| 14:26.02 | ratrace | riezaizu: when FF slows down, do you see activity in the swap? |
| 14:26.04 | jhutchins_wk | riezaizu: Firefox is not something you should expect performance from. Fewer tabs. |
| 14:26.12 | SerajewelKS | in fact forcing it to swap will probably make it worse |
| 14:26.13 | ratrace | riezaizu: vmstat, iostat, do you see pages going in and out? |
| 14:26.17 | ubuking | hey |
| 14:26.20 | ubuking | I NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 14:26.32 | ratrace | !ask |
| 14:26.33 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
| 14:26.41 | riezaizu | not really, swap is sitting at 0.24G. But this is a bit strange because sometimes it starts swapping to like 2G, but not recently. Not sure why |
| 14:26.45 | jhutchins_wk | Top will show ongoing changes in the swapped value if the system is actually paging. |
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| 14:26.53 | greycat | If your ! key sticks that badly, you might want to swap out the keyboard. |
| 14:27.03 | ratrace | riezaizu: swap migth be "sitting" but do you see in vmstat that pages are going in and out of swap, when it slows down? |
| 14:27.13 | riezaizu | Let me check |
| 14:27.18 | ubuking | I HAVE QUESTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 14:27.21 | jhutchins_wk | riezaizu: Depending on what programs you're running, they will stash pages in swap even if they have plenty of ram. |
| 14:27.33 | ratrace | riezaizu: the thing I'm aiming at is that FF is actually using all those pages and kernel is paging out then in then out again as FF is re-using them |
| 14:27.52 | riezaizu | I honestly think this might be a problem with firefox, I remember it used so swap at like 2G a while ago |
| 14:28.05 | riezaizu | ratrace, not sure how to interpret the output of vmstat |
| 14:28.18 | greycat | an application does not decide "when to swap". the kernel decides that. |
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| 14:28.54 | ratrace | riezaizu: si/so columns are in pages per <period of vmstat delay> |
| 14:29.11 | riezaizu | si = 0, so = 3 |
| 14:29.39 | ratrace | riezaizu: so those don't get in hundreds or thousands when FF visibly slows down? |
| 14:29.55 | riezaizu | ff is very slow right now and those are the values |
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| 14:30.03 | ratrace | riezaizu: you must run vmstat with a delay period. running once does not show you what you think it does |
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| 14:30.29 | riezaizu | every time I run vmstat I get those values |
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| 14:30.42 | greycat | run "vmstat 5" and then ignore the first line of numbers and then look at the lines AFTER that |
| 14:30.48 | riezaizu | free under memory changes, but now by a lot |
| 14:30.52 | riezaizu | ok will do |
| 14:30.54 | greycat | it will take a MINIMUM of 10 seconds. |
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| 14:32.01 | greycat | Poor vmstat. Modern systems have so much memory that the numbers don't line up in the columns any more. |
| 14:32.23 | riezaizu | I get one line with si:0 so:42, then after I get si:62 so:0, then all others are 0 |
| 14:32.56 | greycat | for 5 seconds, it swapped some stuff out, then for 5 seconds it swapped some stuff in, then for 5 seconds it didn't do any swapping... |
| 14:33.18 | jelly | riezaizu: those tiny KiB numbers are just noise and irrelevant |
| 14:33.25 | ratrace | wouldn't call those numbers indicative of a swapstorm that _might_ explain why FF is slowing down. |
| 14:33.45 | g0zzy | greycat: "routing defer (-51): retry time not reached" appeared a lot. I wonder if that's anything to do with using gmail as a smarthost? |
| 14:34.00 | greycat | The fact that there's any swapping at all means you're at least bumping up against the amount of memory needed, but it's not a huge problem at this point. |
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| 14:34.31 | greycat | g0zzy: I don't use exim, but that sounds to me like "I'm going to wait a bit before retrying this one" |
| 14:37.05 | riezaizu | So other than closing ff when it slows to a crawl, is there any other way to possibly improve performance? |
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| 14:38.06 | jelly | riezaizu: install NoScript and very carefully whitelist only the minimum to get site functionality working |
| 14:38.10 | greycat | analyze your usage patterns and see if there's anything you can change on your end. like, if you regularly open 1500 tabs, maybe consider not doing that. if you have a particular add-on installed that is known to cause issues, maybe consider removing it. |
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| 14:38.42 | riezaizu | jelly, I have ns, this happens after browsing reddit for a while |
| 14:38.52 | greycat | or avoid evil web sites, or switch to a different browser, or wait for them to fix all the performance bugs (hahahaha, not really, that will never happen) |
| 14:39.07 | riezaizu | Maybe it's to do with the site, everything staying in memory because it doesn't have pages. |
| 14:39.10 | jelly | my 3 firefox processes eat about 2.7GiB RES total with like 100-200 tabs open |
| 14:39.42 | ratrace | oof! |
| 14:40.06 | jelly | riezaizu: separate "work" browsing from "leisure" browsing |
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| 14:40.32 | riezaizu | jelly, I never said this was work browsing. Regardless of work or leisure, if ff dies after a while of browsing something, it needs to be fixed somehow |
| 14:40.54 | ratrace | riezaizu: which FF version? Can't see if you mentioned before |
| 14:41.07 | jelly | "dies" is different from "becomes unusably sluggy" |
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| 14:41.33 | riezaizu | 60.9.0esr, the one installed in buster |
| 14:41.44 | jelly | riezaizu: I'm offering some workarounds that I myself have implemented and know they work |
| 14:41.58 | riezaizu | jelly, I would argue that becoming unusable is the equivalent of dying, because either way it has to be closed |
| 14:41.59 | jelly | riezaizu: also: try a 32bit build. :-) |
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| 14:47.02 | g0zzy | greycat: Thanks. I'll read the real manual. It's complex ;) |
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| 14:47.16 | Akuw | i am trying to access my phone via USB but got "The name :1.78 was not provided by any .service files" |
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| 14:53.55 | JackDupp | doh. |
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| 15:11.14 | jhutchins_wk | riezaizu: Definitely try other browsers. Firefox has bugs in it that I reported back when it was Mosaic. |
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| 15:12.07 | greycat | I do not believe there is actually any shared code between Mosaic and Firefox. Firefox came out of Netscape which was Mozilla, the "Mosaic Killer". |
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| 15:13.06 | ratrace | mmmh Netscape, best browser ever. |
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| 15:14.36 | DammitJim | I felt so good when I was using the Netscape Communicator :) |
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| 15:18.41 | netcrash | Is there a way to use stunnel with ipv4? |
| 15:19.39 | netcrash | Is there a way to use stunnel only with ipv4? |
| 15:19.41 | LtL | it was netscape navigater or is communicator different DammitJim ?? |
| 15:20.18 | greycat | "Communicator" was the whole enchilada, including mail client and some kind of content editing thing. "Navigator" was the slightly slimmed-down model. |
| 15:21.00 | LtL | greycat: okay, can't remember that far back. thanks |
| 15:21.35 | LtL | i used eudora, /end offtopic |
| 15:21.46 | greycat | I was already using mutt by then |
| 15:22.16 | LtL | but you're 'greycat' |
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| 15:25.23 | Kats99 | hey i am using debian 10. how do i upgrade to 10.1? |
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| 15:25.45 | greycat | Make sure your source.list is correct. Then run "apt update" and "apt upgrade". |
| 15:25.50 | greycat | sources.list * |
| 15:26.05 | Kats99 | yes it is correct. i manually wrote it |
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| 15:26.27 | Kats99 | so just doing update and upgrade will change it to 10.1? |
| 15:26.37 | ratrace | though sources.list need no change when upgrading from 10 to 10.1 |
| 15:26.55 | greycat | "cat /etc/debian_version" will say 10.1 afterward |
| 15:27.02 | Kats99 | oh ok.. |
| 15:29.14 | Kats99 | oh it's already in 10.1.. didnt know that just doing upgrade would take me to 10.1. it is very different from ubuntu |
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| 15:29.43 | jelly | Kats99: you will however need to do an "apt full-upgrade" or "apt-get dist-upgrade", not just upgrade |
| 15:29.45 | greycat | Point releases in Debian are simply a set of updated packages that are downloaded and installed to fix bugs. |
| 15:29.59 | jelly | ubuntu behaves in exactly the same way with point releases. |
| 15:30.29 | Kats99 | but i havent seen any point releases.. just like 19.04 19.10 |
| 15:30.29 | jelly | regular patches get you from 18.04 to 18.04.1 to 18.04.2 without you noticing |
| 15:30.38 | Kats99 | oh i see |
| 15:30.40 | greycat | "apt upgrade" installs new packages like kernel ABI bumps. "apt-get upgrade" does not. |
| 15:30.54 | jelly | Kats99: non-LTS releases for ubuntu don't have point releases, only LTS do |
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| 15:31.20 | Kats99 | ok. |
| 15:31.20 | jelly | sorry, I tend to ignore their regular releases |
| 15:31.51 | jelly | "ubuntu LTS behaves in exactly the same way with point releases." |
| 15:32.11 | Kats99 | yeah and i dont notice what im doing on ubuntu when i upgrade.. |
| 15:32.24 | jhutchins_wk | greycat: What about aptitude? |
| 15:33.30 | Kats99 | ok so whats the difference between apt, apt-get and aptitude |
| 15:34.04 | greycat | dpkg, apt vs. apt-get |
| 15:34.04 | dpkg | apt is promoted over apt-get for interactive use. It uses fancy colors and has output format differences. It removes the .deb files that it downloads during an install or upgrade. It installs new packages during upgrades. apt-get has a stable command-line interface and is promoted for scripting. |
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| 15:36.14 | Kats99 | hmm ok..apt-get seems suitable for my purposes |
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| 15:46.30 | Kats99 | i dont know if it's ok to ask this but i have a 500 gb hdd and i want debian on it. my main use is just coding and installing small scripts and softwares. how would u advise me on partitioning |
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| 15:46.58 | DammitJim | is it true that the recommended command is apt and not apt-get ? |
| 15:47.04 | Kats99 | single user and no videos or mp3s |
| 15:47.05 | herzlichweise | Kats99: i would let the installer decide |
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| 15:47.35 | greycat | DammitJim: /msg dpkg apt vs. apt-get |
| 15:47.44 | Kats99 | yeah but for manual partioning how would u suggest me...like for /opt / /usr and all |
| 15:47.56 | herzlichweise | okay, sorry that i butted in |
| 15:48.05 | Kats99 | hey no worries |
| 15:48.16 | ratrace | Kats99: if you don't know how to partition it, use defaults |
| 15:48.52 | Kats99 | hey i do...i did manual partitioning in ubuntu...but there is so much of excess space that i dont use.. |
| 15:49.07 | Kats99 | and so i want to be careful in debian |
| 15:49.07 | ratrace | some would suggest to separate /home so you can reinstall main OS while your ~/ data is intact, but I'd say nah, you're keeping good backups anyway, right? right? :) |
| 15:49.07 | DammitJim | great! So, apt-get for scripting and apt for regular stuff |
| 15:49.09 | greycat | that's much better than needing space and not having it |
| 15:49.18 | DammitJim | starting with what version was this recommended? |
| 15:49.46 | Kats99 | lol no... no need for backups for me..unless it is really important..i'd upload them to a cloud |
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| 15:50.05 | ratrace | Kats99: 640kb ought to be enough for anybody. |
| 15:50.10 | daniel__ | exit |
| 15:50.13 | ratrace | %s/kb/kB/ |
| 15:50.32 | Kats99 | i gave / 150 gb and it is still around 60 gb and my home partition has 300 gb and that too it is using just 30 gb |
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| 15:51.08 | Kats99 | even after installing all the softwares i require.. |
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| 15:52.28 | BlueByte | Hey all, I have a Problem running lets encrypt ... anybody knows something about the problems with ACME trouble? |
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| 15:52.48 | Kats99 | someone said that i just dont use the excess space and when i really need it i can attach it to the necessary partition |
| 15:53.17 | greycat | that would be an LVM thing |
| 15:53.50 | ratrace | that would also be silly, unless you needed several different partitions and then had extra free space to reallocate on demand. |
| 15:54.03 | jelly | <3 lvm |
| 15:54.40 | Kats99 | hmm.. but my partions are pre designated and i wont be changing or adding in the future |
| 15:55.04 | Kats99 | so it is better to use all the space instead of retaining it |
| 15:55.07 | epsilon | Kats99: let the installer suggest the size by choosing separate /home and /var. Then you have the feeling. If still unsure, use LVM and create small LV for /home, /opt, /usr whatever and expand on demand |
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| 15:55.25 | jelly | Kats99: that's fine as well, but if you want to change anything you might need to use a second disk to do a backup, reformat, repartition and restore |
| 15:55.57 | Kats99 | ohh ok.. |
| 15:56.09 | jelly | for casual single user system having just a / and a bit of swap is just fine |
| 15:56.27 | jelly | so two partitions. |
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| 15:57.09 | Kats99 | yeah right |
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| 15:57.35 | jelly | Debian installer's guided partitioning makes some really bad choices if you tell you you want multiple partitions/filesystems |
| 15:57.53 | epsilon | agree, as long you have no daemons running, or the host is not running 24/7/365 without being watched after it |
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| 15:58.19 | jelly | epsilon: separate /usr is just silly. |
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| 15:58.26 | Kats99 | well it will be running 24 7 but very less daemons.. |
| 15:58.28 | epsilon | think? |
| 15:59.13 | jelly | fact. It's also completely impossible for many distros nowadays, because of |
| 15:59.15 | jelly | !usrmerge |
| 15:59.16 | dpkg | /usr merge is the combining of /bin and /usr/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin on fresh installs of Debian 10 Buster. On machines upgraded from Stretch, this is optional, and can be accomplished if desired via the usrmerge package |
| 15:59.46 | epsilon | btw, is it still important to assign /tmp partition, or is it running only on RAM these days if there is no explicite /tmp? |
| 15:59.46 | Kats99 | im glad that the debian iso didnt contain much softwares as in ubuntu..i had to install vim manually..its a very good approach because users are to be given the choice of installing their required softwares |
| 16:01.03 | jelly | epsilon: /tmp is not on ramfs or tmpfs by default in Debian. You can make it a separate disk-backed filesystem during installation, but I think tmpfs is not an option. |
| 16:01.20 | epsilon | ok |
| 16:02.45 | jelly | Kats99: honestly if you don't mess up your partitioning at least once or twice you won't appreciate what lvm or things like zfs have to offer there. |
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| 16:07.20 | Kats99 | ive done a lot of times in vm while i was practising. now im able to manually encrypt drives so im confident |
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| 16:08.19 | jhutchins_wk | The usual linux filesystem partitioning dates back to when hard disks were the size of laundry machines. |
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| 16:08.56 | jhutchins_wk | For a general purpose system, all it does is guarantee that the space you need will be on the wrong partition. |
| 16:09.06 | jelly | !newer php |
| 16:09.07 | dpkg | Short instructions for sury's php deb builds can be found at https://packages.sury.org/php/README.txt |
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| 16:10.47 | jelly | jhutchins_wk: I disagree on washing machines, these sizes were about the time when disks were merely full-height 5.25" 20lb (10kg) things |
| 16:11.52 | jhutchins_wk | jelly: I believe they evolved when the "partitions" tended to be separate physical devices. |
| 16:12.00 | karlpinc | jelly: Depends on how you look at it. Linux inherited a lot of practices from before it existed. |
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| 16:17.00 | jhutchins_wk1 | There were justifications like "if /var fills up the system won't just halt", but a lot of programs won't run if they can't write to their logs. |
| 16:17.15 | jhutchins_wk1 | So was that a netsplit or is my connection wonky again? |
| 16:17.31 | herzlichweise | i am wonky |
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| 16:17.57 | Habbie | jhutchins_wk1, there is no netsplit; jhutchins_wk is still here, and still responds to pings |
| 16:18.11 | jhutchins_wk1 | Habbie: Yeah, I see the nic. |
| 16:18.20 | jelly | hi wonky, Im jelly |
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| 16:19.21 | SerajewelKS | Kats99: it's even more fun encrypting volumes while the system is running and using them :) |
| 16:19.31 | SerajewelKS | Kats99: i did that last week |
| 16:20.22 | Ayan40 | Hi. I can not find my created payload in kalilinux pls help |
| 16:20.28 | jelly | !kali |
| 16:20.29 | dpkg | Kali Linux (http://www.kali.org/) is a security and penetration testing distribution from the creators of <backtrack>. It is based on Debian, but it is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Seek help in #kali-linux on chat.freenode.net or http://forums.kali.org/ . Also ask me about <based on debian>, and read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html |
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| 16:21.44 | jelly | Ayan40: that channel provides help for the distro, but not for tools they ship. If you're talking about using a specific tool you'll probably need to find a place that supports that tool. |
| 16:22.17 | dka | Hi, I am trying to peer my hand free (Jabra Elite active 65T), but when I try to setup I have : "Connection Failed: blueman.bluez.errors.DBusFailedError: Protocol not available..." |
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| 16:25.19 | AlpacaFace | Morning. If I pull Intel Management Engine modules from the kernel, would I have system issues? |
| 16:26.35 | Kats99 | SerajewelKS: hmm.. i still am new to advanced systems management..but i was really happy when i encrypted separate partitions instead of the whole disk |
| 16:26.43 | jelly | AlpacaFace: what do you mean "pull", why not just blacklist them |
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| 16:27.09 | SerajewelKS | Kats99: i had a few layers: md-raid (mirror), on top of that an LVM PV, on top of that my LVs |
| 16:27.52 | SerajewelKS | Kats99: so my steps were: fail one side of the mirror, and create a new (degraded) mirror on it. create a LUKS volume on that new mirror, then a PV on the crypt container. add the PV to the same VG, then pvmove everything off the old mirror onto the new. when it's done, tear down the old mirror, and add that device to the new mirror. |
| 16:28.04 | SerajewelKS | Kats99: it all happened while the system remained up (in fact this was the / volume) |
| 16:28.38 | jelly | SerajewelKS: but tell us whether you managed to reboot correctly on the first try |
| 16:28.51 | SerajewelKS | jelly: surprisingly, yes |
| 16:28.58 | jelly | ooh. |
| 16:29.08 | SerajewelKS | i'm getting quite good at this stuff |
| 16:29.14 | SerajewelKS | and since i said that i'll fail the next time |
| 16:29.28 | AlpacaFace | jelly: there are load options in the kernel config. I wanted to exclude it |
| 16:30.08 | Kats99 | if i do what i did then ill be found dead near the destroyed computer by the cops |
| 16:30.14 | Kats99 | *what u did |
| 16:30.37 | jelly | dpkg, flw77 is <reply><SerajewelKS> i'm getting quite good at this stuff |
| 16:30.37 | dpkg | okay, jelly |
| 16:30.46 | SerajewelKS | jelly: only issue i had was when testing the dropbear-initramfs setup to allow remote unlocking of the container |
| 16:31.02 | SerajewelKS | jelly: flw? |
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| 16:31.11 | jelly | !famous last words |
| 16:31.11 | dpkg | <meoblast_> i just always use root to avoid trouble |
| 16:31.14 | SerajewelKS | aha |
| 16:31.35 | herzlichweise | meoblast! where is he/she/it? |
| 16:31.41 | SerajewelKS | jelly: and it turned out the issue wasn't even the config, i nailed the dropbear config on the first try as well |
| 16:31.52 | jelly | herzlichweise: in the quote database. |
| 16:32.00 | herzlichweise | :D |
| 16:32.16 | jelly | eyes SerajewelKS with suspicion |
| 16:32.27 | SerajewelKS | jelly: problem is that my android SSH client will only use v6 if there is an AAAA record. and the system has v6 access through a tunnel, which isn't set up in the initrd environment. |
| 16:32.50 | SerajewelKS | so i created an additional v4-only hostname for the box and used that instead |
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| 16:33.17 | SerajewelKS | and, apparently, my carrier added v6 support sometime within the last few months |
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| 16:34.45 | SerajewelKS | jelly: if it makes you feel better, that was the third dropbear-initramfs setup i did in the last few months :P |
| 16:34.52 | SerajewelKS | so i got all of the mistakes out of my system on the first two |
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| 16:53.02 | Toreto | Hi! I'm trying apt-get update in armbian device but i am receiving: w: Failed to fetch http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie-backports/main/binary-armhf/Packages 404 Not Found / w: Failed to fetch http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie-backports/contrib/binary-armhf/Packages 404 Not Found |
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| 16:53.16 | greycat | !jessie sources.list |
| 16:53.16 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for Debian 8 "Jessie" has two lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ jessie main" "deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main". Be sure to run «aptitude update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <jessie/updates> <jessie-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list". |
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| 16:53.40 | greycat | !jessie-backports |
| 16:53.41 | dpkg | Some packages intended for Stretch (Debian 9) but rebuilt for use with Jessie (Debian 8) can be found in the "jessie-backports" repository. See http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . Jessie-backports are no longer being created, and the existing ones are archived. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianJessie for instructions. |
| 16:53.51 | Toreto | thank you greycat |
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| 17:03.38 | ayan_ | I like Debian |
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| 17:05.18 | jhutchins_wk | While I appreciate people not breaking things on Read Only Friday, it does make for a dull day. |
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| 17:09.12 | nkuttler | sid uninstalled my xorg. halp! |
| 17:09.30 | greycat | !sid |
| 17:09.30 | dpkg | sid is probably the codename for <unstable>, named after the kid in Toy Story that breaks toys. The great thing about running sid is that when it breaks, you get to keep ALL the pieces!! |
| 17:09.45 | nkuttler | whoosh |
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| 17:37.49 | ws2k3 | with debian 10. does it use systemd-network by default? or still /etc/network/interfaces? |
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| 17:38.05 | greycat | All releases of Debian use /etc/network/interfaces by default. |
| 17:38.30 | ws2k3 | greycat are there plans to move to systemd-network in the long run? |
| 17:38.40 | greycat | I really freaking hope not. |
| 17:38.52 | ws2k3 | greycat ur against it? |
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| 17:39.18 | ws2k3 | greycat me 2 :D but i have some servers already on systemd-network and im considering to switch them back |
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| 18:11.33 | ws2k3 | i used to use the command arp -a to view all know arp entry's since ifconfig is gone this command doesnt exsist anymore. what is the new commnd? |
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| 18:12.31 | greycat | ws2k3: apparently it's "ip neighbor" |
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| 18:13.08 | ws2k3 | greycat thx |
| 18:13.14 | greycat | or the British spelling, "ip neighbour", or most abbreviations |
| 18:13.33 | ws2k3 | greycat ip neugh show works to |
| 18:13.44 | ws2k3 | ip neight show* |
| 18:13.45 | greycat | "or some typos" |
| 18:13.48 | ws2k3 | :D |
| 18:14.01 | greycat | hmm, neither of those typos works on mine |
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| 18:14.34 | ws2k3 | greycat how long ur already in this channel? cause im already here for like 15 years. and im pretty sure you already where here when i joined :P |
| 18:15.19 | greycat | Probably around 20 years? I don't know. Not continuously, either. |
| 18:16.00 | ws2k3 | greycat cool. you and abrotman are kinda the only names i still remember :P |
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| 18:54.07 | dka | Hi, I am trying to peer my hand free (Jabra Elite active 65T), but when I try to setup I have : "Connection Failed: blueman.bluez.errors.DBusFailedError: Protocol not available..."Is there a way I can reset all the wifi connection on Debian ? i want to have default settings |
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| 18:58.33 | ubuking | Hi, why is package "phpMyAdmin" not in Debian stable? |
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| 18:58.49 | greycat | !phpmyadmin |
| 18:58.50 | dpkg | phpMyAdmin is a tool written in PHP intended to handle MySQL administration over the Internet. Can create and drop databases, create/drop/alter tables, delete/edit/add fields, execute any SQL statement, and manage keys on fields. Read /usr/share/doc/phpmyadmin/README.Debian and run "dpkg-reconfigure phpmyadmin" to configure your web server. http://www.phpmyadmin.net/documentation/#faq #phpmyadmin on irc.freenode.net. |
| 18:59.05 | greycat | Hmm. |
| 19:00.05 | greycat | https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/phpmyadmin says it was removed from testing in January, which would have been during the freeze. You can follow the links from there. |
| 19:00.31 | ubuking | thanks i will read |
| 19:00.40 | ubuking | last Question greycat. can i use Debian for Desktop pc ? |
| 19:00.47 | greycat | I do. |
| 19:01.05 | ubuking | Stable or testing? :) |
| 19:01.27 | greycat | stable |
| 19:01.46 | ubuking | thansk for support ! D |
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| 19:02.04 | ubuking | :D |
| 19:02.12 | humpled | they should keep a dummy package called phpmyadmin just as a honeypot |
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| 19:43.16 | LunaLovegood | What's the minimal/smallest package(s) I can install that would let a computer send me email when a cron job returns errors, and other similar issues ? I don't want a full mta. I already have a postfix server on my network, mail should be sent there. |
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| 19:44.01 | greycat | I would focus on whichever MTA you prefer, rather than "smallest" and having to learn a new one. |
| 19:44.15 | greycat | Just configure whichever one you like to do local deliveries only. |
| 19:46.02 | LunaLovegood | but I don't want any mail stored on the (headless) computer, mail delivery should end up on my (already configured) postfix server instead. Ideally I'd install something that's nothing more than a smtp client on the headless computer. |
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| 19:46.56 | greycat | Then configure it for "outgoing delivery through a smarthost". |
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| 19:46.58 | LunaLovegood | looking on packages.debian.org I see 'ssmtp' |
| 19:47.08 | LunaLovegood | would it work well enough do you think? |
| 19:47.16 | greycat | ,popcon ssmtp |
| 19:47.18 | judd | Popcon data for ssmtp: inst: 3566, vote: 2306, old: 1196, recent: 60, nofiles: 4 |
| 19:47.31 | greycat | seems like it has some users |
| 19:47.40 | nkuttler | it's pretty nice |
| 19:48.09 | nkuttler | i run it on basically every host except the real mailserver |
| 19:48.26 | LunaLovegood | k thanks, that's exactly what I want. |
| 19:51.12 | mutante | ,popcon toilet |
| 19:51.13 | judd | Popcon data for toilet: inst: 2506, vote: 397, old: 1963, recent: 144, nofiles: 2 |
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| 19:55.07 | jhutchins_wk | phpmyadmin is one of those PHP things that can be managed directly from upstream. |
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| 20:00.49 | wakawako | is there a way to reach customer support for something that you can´t really find within your region? |
| 20:01.11 | bernyrd | yes this is customer support |
| 20:01.25 | bernyrd | satisfaction guaranteed or your money back |
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| 20:01.51 | wakawako | I mean companies that seems to be present in only one specific region |
| 20:02.35 | bernyrd | yeah, if a company has a local contact usually it is easy to find. if not just go for main office. |
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| 20:04.53 | wakawako | but if it doesn´t? |
| 20:05.34 | bernyrd | if it doesn't have a main office? |
| 20:05.48 | bernyrd | well, best defense to being sued is being unable to be served with papers, so you sure this place wants to help you? |
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| 20:10.39 | wakawako | I just want to be sure that something I want removed is really removed or only seems like it´s removed entirely. |
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| 20:18.35 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: It would really depend on what type of company or service you're talking about. We can't give you a real answer if you're so vague. |
| 20:19.02 | wakawako | sure that a company like Intel would like to get involved if it´s a vulnerability related issue? |
| 20:19.29 | wakawako | it´s a fairly old cpu by todays standards as well |
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| 20:20.27 | bernyrd | if it's ME related they don't care |
| 20:20.45 | bernyrd | you can try to sue them, but you need to cite specific material harm you've experienced due to ME |
| 20:20.48 | wakawako | nope, not ME related |
| 20:21.39 | wakawako | hopefully not |
| 20:21.50 | bernyrd | ... then what is it ... |
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| 20:22.27 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: They're not likely to take input from some random user without credentials and experience in processor design. |
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| 20:23.09 | SpeedyG | hi, maybe a bit of a silly question but... is it possible to set one the umask of one specific directory and its subdirs to automatically create files that are user-executable ? |
| 20:23.15 | wakawako | Want to be sure that the link I clicked onto didn´t do anything else than mess up my linux install |
| 20:23.16 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Companies like that don't have local customer service because they don't deal with retail consumer sales, they sell to other manufacturers, builders, and suppliers. |
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| 20:23.59 | greycat | SpeedyG: No, that's not how umask works. Umask is associated with a process, not with a directory. |
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| 20:24.57 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: You're still being vague, but if you're talking about trying to get a link taken down you should find a malware reporting service and report it to them. They can make sure it's not just an error and validate what's really going on. |
| 20:24.57 | wakawako | wondering if it´s possible for anyone to see if there has been something going on on a lower level than just the OS which is worrysome |
| 20:25.01 | greycat | SpeedyG: also, umask only takes bits AWAY. It does not add bits. When an application (C program) creates a file, it asks for the file to be created with 666 permissions (rw-rw-rw-) and umask is subtracted from that. You can't *add* execute bits that way. |
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| 20:25.20 | SpeedyG | greycat: hm, and apart from umask, is it possible to make any new created file in the directory executable by default? |
| 20:25.25 | greycat | no |
| 20:25.31 | greycat | that would be INSANE |
| 20:25.31 | SpeedyG | ok, thx |
| 20:26.01 | wakawako | @jhutchins_wk Can you recommend one? |
| 20:26.03 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Hire a professional service to scan and sanitize the system. |
| 20:26.05 | SpeedyG | well, i'm just lazy... messing with some python scripts on my home box... creating new files... want to execute them using ./ instead of python |
| 20:26.21 | SpeedyG | but no is a good answer (as yeah, it would be kinda insane) |
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| 20:26.52 | greycat | the only thing I can think of would be a daemon that you rig up using inotifywait or something similar, that runs a chmod on all newly created files |
| 20:27.10 | wakawako | jhutchins_wk who would you recommend? |
| 20:27.32 | wakawako | been looking around for quite many for this issue |
| 20:29.04 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: I wouldn't know any in your region. |
| 20:29.22 | wakawako | ok |
| 20:29.33 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Here it might be geeksquad or BestBuy, but maybe more of a computer security specialist. |
| 20:30.01 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: You might find something by searching for computer security specialist. |
| 20:30.41 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: You're probably not going to find anything that would cost less than $100US/hr or more. |
| 20:31.26 | wakawako | tried asking friends about this next to no luck |
| 20:31.32 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: You also have to look at the cost-benefit ration for the hacker. What does he get if he spends hours deep-hacking your system? |
| 20:31.40 | bernyrd | err no one charging $100/hr is actually qualified to see if his mobo has been exploited |
| 20:31.48 | bernyrd | well maybe getting there |
| 20:32.27 | jhutchins_wk | bernyrd: Yeah, I would expect it to be more expensive than simply replacing the motherboard, and it would be a pretty rare and specialized attack. |
| 20:32.59 | jhutchins_wk | It would have to be something on the level of the US Military's hack on Iran's centrifuges, and would require similar resources. |
| 20:33.35 | jhutchins_wk | It's not going to happen from accidentally visiting a malware infected site with a home PC. |
| 20:33.40 | bernyrd | no I think organized crime could foot the bill for it |
| 20:33.50 | bernyrd | wakawako must have seduced a mob boss' daughter |
| 20:34.53 | bernyrd | wakawako: at the mobo level the hardware is so locked down the most realistic way you see if you are hacked is you have an "airgapped" system monitoring traffic to/from the device you are testing. if it sends something when it shouldn't, you can assume something is amiss. |
| 20:35.02 | bernyrd | but how do you trust the thing checking the traffic? |
| 20:35.06 | jhutchins_wk | Do a factory reset, update the BIOS, do a clean install, and get on with your life. |
| 20:35.19 | wakawako | how do I do that? |
| 20:35.45 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: It's not a push-button thing, you have to buy hardware and study packet tracing. |
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| 20:36.01 | wakawako | the airgapped thing |
| 20:36.23 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: It's not a push-button thing, you have to buy hardware and study packet tracing. |
| 20:36.44 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Airgapped means it's not connected to anything else. |
| 20:37.28 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Seriously: do a factory reset, update the BIOS, do a clean install, and get on with your life. |
| 20:38.02 | bernyrd | wakawako: basically, you need to buy special purpose hardware, like an FPGA, and then find computers that can flash the FPGA that you trust (maybe they got hacked also?). you could use an embedded system but maybe it is also hacked? |
| 20:38.07 | bernyrd | turtles all the way down |
| 20:38.42 | bernyrd | but jhutchins_wk had a good point, basically at this point anyone that can hack a motherboard is *probably* a government, so I suggest not picking fights with governments |
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| 20:39.19 | bernyrd | there is nonzero chance a post-2013 motherboard can be exploited |
| 20:40.57 | wakawako | does it mean there is a chance or no chance? |
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| 20:41.26 | bernyrd | there is a chance, in a similar way there is a chance you will be mugged tomorrow by a man wearing a dinosaur suit |
| 20:41.50 | wakawako | oh |
| 20:43.25 | bernyrd | happens all the time on liveleak, be careful out there |
| 20:43.33 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: You can never completely eliminate the possibility of something happening, but you can take care of the reasonably likely things and just not worry that a cosmic ray will randomly flip the right bits in your RAM to have your modem call NORAD. |
| 20:44.18 | jhutchins_wk | A good web safety rule is "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is". |
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| 20:45.27 | wakawako | can you reset so that you remove something that can access the cpu microcode and the like of it |
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| 20:46.30 | wakawako | it´s a case of doing something about it after it happened |
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| 20:48.02 | bernyrd | no, you'd need to replace it |
| 20:48.29 | bernyrd | most mobo do not allow you to change those things so if they were changed it was 1) someone who exploited that mechanism via a way you don't know or 2) someone with the signing keys |
| 20:48.35 | bernyrd | in either case you can't *undo* it |
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| 20:50.34 | greycat | wakawako: do you have any *concrete evidence* that you are suffering the effects of a hardware-level security intrusion of some kind, or is this still "my internet was slow/glitchy for a few minutes one time a few weeks ago, omg i got pwned"? |
| 20:51.30 | jhutchins_wk | greycat: I think he had some evidence of malware changes, but it's mostly just paranoia about things he doesn't understand. |
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| 20:52.53 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: No offense meant, wakawako |
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| 20:53.10 | bernyrd | it's a phase once you learn about the ME/PSP |
| 20:54.34 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: https://securityscorecard.com/blog/top-10-information-security-websites-to-follow https://onlinedegrees.sandiego.edu/top-cyber-security-blogs-websites/ |
| 20:54.58 | wakawako | Since it´s something that involved one of those infected attack domain names like novans.ru and other "sites" that are supposed to be patched against by now, it might be a new version of it. |
| 20:56.04 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Find a good vulnerability mailing list and subscribe. Subscribe to the Debian security lists. |
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| 20:56.36 | jhutchins_wk | Do your clean install, watch for problems, and learn how to deal with them. |
| 20:56.44 | wakawako | where do you that the lists at? |
| 20:56.47 | wakawako | here? |
| 20:56.57 | jhutchins_wk | !mailing lists |
| 20:56.57 | dpkg | Mailing lists allow large numbers of people to share knowledge and experiences, these communications are also persistent. See http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ . mbox archives are not provided via the web archive due to Listmaster team policy (Debian bug #161440), see <gmane>. For lists.debian.org questions, join #debian-lists on irc.oftc.net or e-mail listmaster@lists.debian.org. See also <list spam> and <subscribed>. |
| 20:57.33 | jhutchins_wk | !security |
| 20:57.33 | dpkg | Put "deb http://security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free" in your /etc/apt/sources.list file to keep up-to-date on security updates in <stable>. Run "aptitude update" and "aptitude upgrade" (or "aptitude full-upgrade" if the updates are kept back). Also ask me about <dsa>, <security backports>, <oldstable security>, <testing security>, <unstable security>, <browser security>. |
| 20:57.54 | jhutchins_wk | THat's just software updates I guess. |
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| 20:58.47 | greycat | !security faq |
| 20:58.47 | dpkg | "The most important guideline when making a new package that fixes a security problem is to make as few changes as possible. ... moving to a new upstream version is not a good solution, instead the relevant changes should be backported." https://www.debian.org/security/faq |
| 20:58.57 | jhutchins_wk | wakawako: Make sure your sources of information are reputable, well-known public sources, not some consoiracy theorist on the "dark web". |
| 20:59.12 | jhutchins_wk | greycat: Thx. |
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| 21:09.20 | wakawako | Sorry if I seem quite repetitive here about what I want to solve, it just that I´m not entirely sure if the problem is fixed long ago or not hence my doubt |
| 21:09.51 | bernyrd | well, what do you mean fixed? |
| 21:10.24 | bernyrd | the problem is extant but what everyone is trying to say is unless you have experienced concrete evidence that something bad has happened there's no point worrying about it |
| 21:10.40 | bernyrd | or.. there is a point, but what you can accomplish now is very limited. |
| 21:11.01 | wakawako | that is what worries me right now |
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| 21:11.37 | wakawako | that something bad happened and I don´t know exactly how to take care of it fully |
| 21:11.44 | bernyrd | there's better things to worry about, like what's for dinner |
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| 21:13.51 | bernyrd | worry about this only on the timescale that you can use your money or voice to incentivize electronics manufacturers to not do this in the future |
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| 21:14.40 | bernyrd | until then, think of it as magic. your computer is provably not yours and there are a history of motherboard level exploits available to anyone who cares enough. |
| 21:14.48 | bernyrd | soo... are those your cat pictures, or are you being blackmailed? |
| 21:16.34 | wakawako | I mean, what if the individual behind that script/other has compromised more than just one and it becomes a tug war of who has the most control of the devices in your house. |
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| 21:17.05 | bernyrd | sounds kind of entertaining |
| 21:17.34 | wakawako | it´s actually a nightmare |
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| 21:18.10 | bernyrd | no, anchovies on pizza is a nightmare |
| 21:18.22 | bernyrd | this... this is just a waste of time :) |
| 21:18.22 | mutante | don't let the fridge and tv have IP addresses |
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| 21:21.40 | wakawako | well you´re right, this was perhaps not the right forum to turn for help with a topic like this that I don´t know how to combat and move on. |
| 21:22.25 | wakawako | I appreciate the help though |
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| 21:24.01 | bernyrd | only trust a computer to the extent you can put a gun to the head of the man who made it |
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| 21:33.40 | at0m | fwiw, i'm not putting guns to anyone's head. |
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| 21:35.32 | jhutchins | I wonder if he's done the clean install multiple people suggested? |
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| 21:45.32 | bernyrd | at0m: next you're going to tell me women can make computers also? |
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| 21:52.40 | jhutchins | We have some pretty sharp women in our development team. |
| 21:53.17 | jhutchins | Then again, one of the guys is an astrophysicist. Rocket sience is his hobby. |
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| 22:01.21 | bernyrd | What about rocket seance? Would be good to ask them how they died |
| 22:01.23 | at0m | gf was first gal to start the class back in the day, despite not being all that welcome, she came out best of her class in coding & engineering. |
| 22:02.23 | at0m | folk like bernyrd made sure she didn't live up to her uni degree and took a different job. |
| 22:02.31 | at0m | what a waste for society huh |
| 22:02.38 | bernyrd | mfw |
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| 22:38.55 | ilikeyou | Hello. I'm looking to download the source package for xfce4 with apt . if I do apt source xfce4, all I get is the 'debian' directory with the rules and such. How do I get the full package with Makefile and everything else ? Thanks. Should I be using 'apt-src install' instead? |
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| 22:40.48 | Unit193 | 'xfce4' is a Debian invention, https://sources.debian.org/src/xfce4/4.14/ it doesn't exist from Xfce upstream. They have different components such as xfce4-settings, xfce4-session, xfce4-panel, xfwm4, xfdesktop4, etc etc. |
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| 22:41.54 | ilikeyou | ohhh I see . ok thanks |
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| 22:42.53 | nulleip | no |
| 22:43.04 | nulleip | it literaly have the sources for it... like http://archive.xfce.org/xfce/4.14/src/xfce4-settings-4.14.0.tar.bz2 |
| 22:43.20 | nulleip | its not a debian invention |
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| 22:44.01 | PETURBG | pleae help |
| 22:44.05 | Habbie | nulleip, Unit193 means that there is no xfce4-4.14.0.tar.bz2 there |
| 22:44.43 | PETURBG | what is much better for dovecto cram-md5 |
| 22:45.34 | PETURBG | it tis good ?https://wiki.debian.org/PostfixAndSASL |
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| 22:46.34 | Unit193 | I mean, there are 'fat tarblls' http://archive.xfce.org/xfce/4.14/fat_tarballs/, but Debian does not use them (I'm not aware of any distro that does.) |
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| 22:46.48 | nulleip | like this.. http://archive.xfce.org/xfce/4.14/fat_tarballs/xfce-4.14.tar.bz2 |
| 22:46.52 | Habbie | ah |
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| 22:47.40 | nulleip | but I get what he means.. sorry |
| 22:47.44 | PETURBG | ? |
| 22:47.45 | Unit193 | nulleip: Regardless, the 'xfce4' package is a metapackage, where the only sources would be the debian/ directory. As noted, Debian doesn't use the fattarball. |
| 22:47.58 | PETURBG | !protocols |
| 22:48.06 | nulleip | yes |
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| 22:50.40 | PETURBG | someone |
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| 23:10.52 | PETURBG | is debian 10 has argon2 for dovecot |
| 23:11.59 | annadane | https://dev.to/c33s/argon2-for-dovecot-on-debian-2ap7 but this is a) for debian stretch and b) asks you to use an external repo which isn't always great, though i think people have used sury before |
| 23:12.04 | annadane | i can check for buster... |
| 23:12.38 | PETURBG | ? |
| 23:13.11 | annadane | a quick search doesn't reveal anything |
| 23:13.13 | PETURBG | strange nobody here for debian help... |
| 23:13.17 | annadane | maybe someone else knows, and can answer |
| 23:13.34 | PETURBG | dane do you have email server... |
| 23:13.50 | annadane | no, i'm just a relative newbie trying to answer your question |
| 23:14.38 | annadane | i would assume that link is a good way to do it, it seems good enough, i'm just hesitant to recommend 3rd party repositories unless i know they're good |
| 23:14.47 | annadane | it *should* probably be the same for buster, same dependencies... |
| 23:14.58 | PETURBG | it is unknown why nobody has manual for aragon2... |
| 23:15.32 | PETURBG | dovecot pw -l comment there is aragon2id and aragoni but it seams they are different |
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| 23:16.11 | PETURBG | it is very disturbing that debian don't annouce they don't have official aragon2... |
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| 23:17.48 | PETURBG | is there way to see how was dovecot compiled... |
| 23:18.51 | PETURBG | fuck dovecot is not compiled with aragon2... and why they offer aragon2d... |
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| 23:19.33 | PETURBG | dovecot has libsodium23 so it hsa t ohas aragon2 |
| 23:19.50 | annadane | it's up to you but IIRC i think people have used packages.sury.org in the past and it's been fine, i hope someone else can back me up on that |
| 23:20.27 | PETURBG | no... |
| 23:20.45 | Habbie | annadane, i believe this channel has a policy of never recommending external repos |
| 23:20.47 | Habbie | annadane, but i could be wrong |
| 23:20.55 | PETURBG | someone know whatare debian mailing list... |
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| 23:21.08 | PETURBG | why they didn't activate aragon2... |
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| 23:21.31 | annadane | i don't think it's policy necessarily but most of the time recommending random external repositories is frowned upon |
| 23:21.38 | annadane | but it's "it depends", not "it's always bad" |
| 23:22.11 | PETURBG | why debian dont make manuals how to activate aragon2 |
| 23:22.19 | annadane | let me see if i can find a mailing list |
| 23:22.44 | Unit193 | According to the 1:2.3.2-1 changelog: + [4f6792e] Build with sodium support, enabling the ARGON2I and ARGON2ID password schemes. |
| 23:23.53 | annadane | principally, with external repos, you just don't want to get in trouble with dependencies, like an upgraded libc6... and then obviously the question of "do you trust it", but it's mostly a question of what packages from these repositories pull in |
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| 23:25.13 | PETURBG | Unit193 thank there are peoples who are online... look here: dovecot --build-optionsBuild options: ioloop=epoll notify=inotify openssl io_block_size=8192SQL driver plugins: mysql postgresql sqlitePassdb: checkpassword ldap pam passwd passwd-file shadow sqlUserdb: checkpassword ldap(plugin) passwd prefetch passwd-file sql |
| 23:25.48 | PETURBG | i dont see sodium build... so... question is aragon2 and aragon2id and aragon2i are same ? |
| 23:26.01 | jim | just saw a question on ##linux, and it made me wonder: is is at all useful for the syslog file to be 330gb? |
| 23:26.17 | PETURBG | as here it comment https://dovecot.org/pipermail/dovecot/2018-December/113734.html it is not... |
| 23:26.32 | annadane | jim, i'd assume the majority of it will never be read can be gotten rid of |
| 23:26.46 | PETURBG | aragon2 is maybe different |
| 23:26.46 | annadane | also doesn't debian split its syslog like all other logs into older archives? |
| 23:26.59 | Zathras | it does |
| 23:27.01 | jim | I thought so too |
| 23:27.11 | PETURBG | annadane syslog split in dates... |
| 23:27.24 | annadane | i mean it's just a log, if you get rid of it it's not going to screw up your linux |
| 23:27.31 | PETURBG | jim is this 330gb... all day log or from days ? |
| 23:27.46 | PETURBG | jim 330 gb or 330 mb. |
| 23:27.49 | annadane | you probably want to wipe it clean though rather than outright remove the file i guess? |
| 23:27.52 | jim | dunno, didn't ask |
| 23:27.54 | jim | gb |
| 23:27.59 | Zathras | better: what is filling the log and try to minimize it |
| 23:28.04 | annadane | right |
| 23:28.15 | PETURBG | jim is this your server ? |
| 23:28.36 | jim | nono, this is someone asking the question about it on ##linux |
| 23:29.08 | PETURBG | jim is linux channel free fro registry... |
| 23:29.16 | PETURBG | i want to ask for debian aragon2 dovecot manual... |
| 23:29.17 | jim | and that got me curious about whether a syslog that big could ever be useful |
| 23:29.36 | jim | PETURBG, no, you have to be registered to enter |
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| 23:29.42 | Zathras | PETURBG, if you do not like the way Dovecot is package, file a bugreport requesting a change marked wish with motivation |
| 23:29.52 | PETURBG | join #linux |
| 23:29.57 | Zathras | but most likely that will never show up in Buster |
| 23:30.05 | annadane | or compile your own? i don't know how trivial it is |
| 23:30.07 | PETURBG | zathras it is debian 10 |
| 23:30.17 | PETURBG | zathras . |
| 23:30.24 | jim | you can't get in there either :) #linux would need to involve Torvalds |
| 23:30.29 | annadane | right, so it won't show up in debian 10, packages in stable tend not to get changed that often |
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| 23:30.36 | Zathras | or rebuild the packahe with changed option and commit to maintaining it yourself |
| 23:30.40 | PETURBG | zathras help me configure my friend dovecot... |
| 23:30.41 | annadane | maybe backports however |
| 23:31.00 | jim | anyway thanks for the conversation |
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| 23:31.47 | Zathras | you could also (re)consider why this feature is needed |
| 23:32.05 | PETURBG | zathras... do you know how to configure aragon2 ... for dovecot... |
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| 23:32.09 | Zathras | I am running dovecot as supplied by debian |
| 23:32.19 | Zathras | no. I do not |
| 23:32.22 | annadane | i did "recommend" (not really, but just as an option) https://dev.to/c33s/argon2-for-dovecot-on-debian-2ap7 (yeah i know it's for stretch but the same probably applies to buster) |
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| 23:33.00 | annadane | i believe sury is relatively well supported and/or has a good reputation on debian |
| 23:33.09 | PETURBG | zathras is aragon2 different from this: doveadm pw -lSHA1 SSHA512 BLF-CRYPT PLAIN HMAC-MD5 OTP SHA512 SHA RPA DES-CRYPT CRYPT SSHA MD5-CRYPT SKEY PLAIN-MD4 PLAIN-MD5 SCRAM-SHA-1 LANMAN SHA512-CRYPT CLEAR CLEARTEXT ARGON2I ARGON2ID SSHA256 NTLM MD5 PBKDF2 SHA256 CRAM-MD5 PLAIN-TRUNC SHA256-CRYPT SMD5 DIGEST-MD5 LDAP-MD5 |
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| 23:33.35 | Zathras | dunno. Never looked into aragon2 |
| 23:34.06 | PETURBG | zathras what kind of encrypption you have ? |
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| 23:34.45 | PETURBG | im very dissapointet from debian not activated aragon2... |
| 23:34.45 | Zathras | iirc sha512 |
| 23:35.04 | PETURBG | zathras do you have manual how to make sha512.... |
| 23:35.39 | Zathras | no |
| 23:36.27 | PETURBG | zathras how you configure sha512... |
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| 23:37.39 | Zathras | https://wiki.dovecot.org/Authentication |
| 23:38.20 | annadane | i wonder if dovecot may also have an argon2 module or something? i don't know if it even has modules |
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| 23:39.29 | Zathras | plenty of plugins |
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| 23:40.57 | annadane | yeah, so search for an argon2 one i guess |
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| 23:43.42 | Zathras | btw if I search in the original docs on argon or aragon I get 0 hits: https://wiki2.dovecot.org/ |
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| 23:46.34 | annadane | is there a universal MIME-type GUI setter, i'm using openbox and want to create file associations and i'm too lazy to do it via CLI |
| 23:47.35 | Zathras | on Buster doveadm pw -l gives among others ARGON2I and ARGON2ID so ... ? |
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| 23:49.14 | annadane | i can probably figure out how to do it via CLI i guess... |
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| 23:55.11 | PETURBG | zathars thanks i see that argon2id is need... now i need to implement it... do you know how... |
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| 23:55.38 | Zathras | https://doc.dovecot.org/configuration_manual/authentication/password_schemes/ |
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| 23:58.14 | PETURBG | zathras so it only need to change and generate password... do oyu have full manual... convert from sha512 in argon2id... |
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