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| 00:37.09 | ryouma | i don't get why you couldn't so maybe i am missing something, but you can use a group? |
| 00:37.22 | ryouma | kadiro: |
| 00:37.24 | ryouma | dankbc: |
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| 00:38.18 | ryouma | idk sed, just emacs, but you can just group the thing you want. you might or might not need a non-greedy star or something. |
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| 00:38.27 | kadiro | ryouma, he was asking about sed, something like how to search a pattern and rip everything else |
| 00:38.49 | ryouma | yeah, can't that just be whatever(the thing i want)whatever? |
| 00:39.56 | kadiro | ryouma, maybe, anyway he didn't respond to know what exactly he have |
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| 01:23.41 | NetGirl | what does lowmem do? it's an optional package during installation |
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| 01:29.25 | annadane | it's probably in the advanced install and probably tells you what it does |
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| 01:30.25 | annadane | https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s02.en.html " Lowmem tries to detect systems with low memory and then does various tricks to remove unnecessary parts of debian-installer from the memory (at the cost of some features)." |
| 01:30.30 | annadane | NetGirl, ^ |
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| 01:37.37 | NetGirl | so it's for the installer |
| 01:37.39 | NetGirl | ok thanks |
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| 01:50.40 | annadane | you said "optional" so i just assumed you plucked it out of the expert install |
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| 01:50.50 | annadane | (expert install, not "advanced install") |
| 01:54.03 | dvs | mediocre install? |
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| 02:27.59 | NetGirl | what's the package manager called now? seems to change name once in a while |
| 02:28.04 | NetGirl | aptitude install? |
| 02:28.19 | NetGirl | lol, so it's just apt now |
| 02:28.26 | NetGirl | what's up with all the changes |
| 02:28.31 | dvs | next will be "a" |
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| 02:30.11 | NetGirl | heh, how does iptables work on debian? |
| 02:30.17 | NetGirl | it's installed but all I have is iptables-xml |
| 02:31.08 | NetGirl | sorry, I can just google these things. Don't mind me. |
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| 02:32.44 | dvs | ,v iptables-persistent |
| 02:32.45 | judd | Package: iptables-persistent on amd64 -- jessie: 1.0.3+deb8u1; stretch: 1.0.4+nmu2; buster: 1.0.11; buster-backports: 1.0.14~bpo10+1; bullseye: 1.0.14; sid: 1.0.14 |
| 02:33.12 | dvs | use that |
| 02:33.16 | NetGirl | what's that for? |
| 02:33.24 | dvs | well, the name says it all |
| 02:33.45 | NetGirl | what is persistent in this context? |
| 02:34.04 | NetGirl | is there a modern and default way to configure the firewall? |
| 02:34.34 | dvs | The persistent means that the rules will be applied every time you start the computer. |
| 02:36.29 | NetGirl | it's just a tool to ease the saving of iptables rules? |
| 02:36.40 | NetGirl | I need the actual tools to configure the firewall :p |
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| 02:37.20 | NetGirl | "iptables: command not found" |
| 02:37.29 | kingsley | How would fix the command... |
| 02:37.51 | kingsley | $ xorriso -outdev /dev/sr0 -blank as_needed |
| 02:37.58 | kingsley | so... |
| 02:38.19 | kingsley | root$ mount /dev/sr0 /media |
| 02:38.37 | kingsley | doesn't complain with... |
| 02:38.50 | kingsley | mount: /media: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0, missing codepage or helper program, or other error. |
| 02:38.52 | kingsley | ? |
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| 02:39.26 | annadane | NetGirl, "man iptables" |
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| 02:39.52 | annadane | NetGirl, or the arch wiki is also generally a good resource, just cut out the arch specific things you don't need. or use the debian wiki |
| 02:40.01 | annadane | or any other sources of online documentation |
| 02:40.04 | dvs | first, apt install iptables |
| 02:40.16 | annadane | yeah installing it first helps. |
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| 02:44.05 | NetGirl | it says that it's already installed |
| 02:44.11 | NetGirl | yet the command iptables isn't found |
| 02:44.19 | dvs | for a regular user.... |
| 02:44.30 | NetGirl | I'm logged in as root |
| 02:44.56 | NetGirl | heh, sbin/iptables exists.. |
| 02:45.02 | NetGirl | why can't I run it? |
| 02:45.06 | NetGirl | path maybe.. |
| 02:45.12 | NetGirl | yeah.. |
| 02:45.33 | dvs | dpkg, su |
| 02:45.33 | dpkg | extra, extra read all about it, su is switch/set user. It is used to change User ID's and/or gain super user access. Since Debian Buster, "su -" or "su -l" is needed to access programs located in /sbin. It provides an root environment as if the superuser had logged in directly. See "man su". |
| 02:45.57 | NetGirl | bingo |
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| 02:54.10 | NetGirl | why is --login recommended instead of the shortcut -? (from the manual) |
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| 02:58.00 | annadane | i don't understand that either |
| 02:58.15 | annadane | i think it's just an old man page |
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| 03:00.39 | kyle__ | stupid question about how wms are setup/managed by lightdm by default in debian9: should it be offering you the installed wms in a dropdown on login, or is your choice config file based? |
| 03:03.09 | NetGirl | have you restarted the dm? I don't know about lightdm specifically .. but I'm using it and it lets me chose |
| 03:03.13 | NetGirl | I think. |
| 03:03.17 | NetGirl | yeah, it does. |
| 03:03.21 | kyle__ | Yeah, I restarted it. |
| 03:03.45 | kyle__ | I wonder if it's some non-standard alteration they made for the debian release for pine64. |
| 03:04.17 | NetGirl | gdm lets you chose desktop, lightdm has to be configured it seems |
| 03:04.23 | NetGirl | judging from various screenshots |
| 03:04.40 | NetGirl | actually.. check this out: https://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/lightdm2.png |
| 03:05.01 | annadane | the thing with the su man page is that it tells you "use --login instead of -" but then in the options section it tells you they all do the same thing |
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| 03:09.48 | annadane | i actually meant to file a bug on it |
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| 03:09.49 | NetGirl | or pull request directly :p |
| 03:09.49 | NetGirl | nah, has to be discussed first |
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| 03:12.24 | McErroneous | Hi, i am on a debian-based system, and my "mouse" keeps printing error-messages in a regular interval....... disturbing my ongoing tty "work"..., how do i redirect mouse errors that look like output from dmesg ? |
| 03:13.24 | dvs | !debian based |
| 03:13.24 | dpkg | Your distribution may be based on and have software in common with Debian, but it is not Debian. We don't and cannot know what changes were made by your distribution (compare http://futurist.se/gldt/). #debian only supports Debian and pure <blend>s; please respect our choice to volunteer here to help Debian users. Support for other distributions is off-topic on #debian, even if your own distro's channel is clueless or non-existent. |
| 03:13.47 | kadiro | looks like a hardware problem |
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| 03:14.39 | rue_mohr | everyone knows that hardware problems ultimitly get dumped on the software people to be sorted out |
| 03:15.13 | McErroneous | I just need the messages to go somewhere , but not blowing up in my face while looking at the tty... |
| 03:15.36 | kadiro | get another mouse |
| 03:16.42 | McErroneous | Wow..., kadiro is a software engineer that solvs problems by just buying new hardware... |
| 03:16.58 | kadiro | thank you :) |
| 03:18.15 | McErroneous | nice trick..., next time if there is a "Houston we have a problem"-problem occurs.., , just tell them to get a new hardware..., instead of crying .... |
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| 03:18.26 | kadiro | by the way i have a problem with my mouse too, I can fix it but just too lazy to do |
| 03:19.01 | kadiro | that's it if the hardware is diying |
| 03:19.12 | kyle__ | Hrumm. This seems to have come with a debian-mate desktop setup by default. And mate does not want to let go :/ |
| 03:19.54 | kyle__ | I found a file named .dmrc, that defined the desktop as mate. Tried changing to i3, no luck. |
| 03:20.26 | kyle__ | There is a .desktop entry for i3 in /usr/share/xsessions, which from what I've read _should_ be where lightdm and other modern dms look for desktop sessions |
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| 03:22.58 | xormor | anything special I need to know about the Chromium OS (of Chrome Box) I use? I installed Linux Beta and it has a full-fledged Debian oldstable stretch 9.11, because I installed it. So it is a Debian, not a derivative, I think. |
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| 03:29.14 | jmaher | i have a reproducible crash (sig=11) in alpine - but maybe it is not coming from alpine but libssl? https://pastebin.com/Fhp0AXxF <-- this is what i get out of gdb |
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| 03:34.07 | rue_mohr | W: Download is performed unsandboxed as root as file 'freecad_0.18~pre1+dfsg1-5.dsc' couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied) |
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| 03:51.33 | Casper26 | Anyone have an idea why after logging in i only get a grey background and blank panels on debian 10.1 xfce? |
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| 03:54.42 | rue_mohr | anyone know anything about that pkgAcquire::Run problem with ALL source packages? |
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| 03:59.57 | themill | rue_mohr: are you running apt-get source as root? You shouldn't. |
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| 04:02.10 | rue_mohr | can apt-get be NOT run as root? |
| 04:02.18 | kadiro | Casper26, see what is in ~/.xsession-errors |
| 04:03.22 | themill | rue_mohr: "apt-get source" and "apt-get download" have no need to be run as root. |
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| 04:04.55 | rue_mohr | oo |
| 04:05.18 | annadane | because you're only fetching stuff from the internet, not installing stuff to your system |
| 04:05.32 | rue_mohr | so the error is specifially designed to prevent people from doing it as root and make them switch back and forth between users to achive one process! |
| 04:05.41 | rue_mohr | :) |
| 04:06.01 | Casper26 | kadiro https://pastebin.com/YD7Y1E11 |
| 04:08.57 | swift110 | hey |
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| 04:15.29 | kadiro | Casper26, I didn't read all the content of your xsession errors file but i would suggest to see this link maybe it has something can help: https://forum.manjaro.org/t/xfce-panel-empty-after-every-reboot/51520/6 |
| 04:15.50 | rue_mohr | Could not open file freecad_0.18~pre1+dfsg1-5.dsc - open (13: Permission denied) [IP: 207.210.46.249 80] |
| 04:15.57 | rue_mohr | ^^^ when I did apt-get source as a user |
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| 04:16.50 | kadiro | may be you did used that with root before, permission may changed |
| 04:17.00 | rue_mohr | well |
| 04:17.09 | rue_mohr | seems that /usr/src is NOT user writable |
| 04:17.18 | kadiro | sure |
| 04:17.22 | rue_mohr | so, a user cant get source to there |
| 04:17.30 | rue_mohr | but the source wont install properly as root |
| 04:17.49 | rue_mohr | solution: chmod 777 everything |
| 04:17.54 | rue_mohr | :) and success! |
| 04:18.02 | kadiro | you can do it outside that path, and copy it to the /usr/src with root |
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| 04:18.15 | rue_mohr | gee thats a lot of farting around |
| 04:18.25 | kadiro | lol |
| 04:18.47 | kadiro | never change something that has to be something else |
| 04:18.53 | themill | rue_mohr: you'll also note that the original message was not an error |
| 04:19.30 | themill | and why do you want to use /usr/src/ for it anyway? |
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| 04:24.17 | rue_mohr | all software is compiled in /usr/src |
| 04:25.14 | rue_mohr | is there a place to report missing package dependencies? |
| 04:25.23 | rue_mohr | freecad needs something |
| 04:25.34 | rue_mohr | Unknown CMake command "fc_copy_file_if_different". |
| 04:25.38 | rue_mohr | anyone know what it is? |
| 04:26.17 | themill | No, software does not need to be in /usr/src to be compiled. In fact, source code in /usr/src should *not* be compiled. |
| 04:26.47 | rue_mohr | like the linux kernel? |
| 04:26.53 | themill | Correct. |
| 04:27.15 | rue_mohr | right, it just works uncompiled |
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| 04:27.44 | themill | /usr/src is for reference source code, not a place for stuff to be compiled |
| 04:27.45 | rue_mohr | I never compile my kernels, I just write the source directly to the boot sector and it just works |
| 04:28.02 | themill | For a brief period in the 1990s, people though throwing the kernel source code there made sense. They realised it didn't. |
| 04:28.21 | themill | They even documented that in the FHS for you. |
| 04:28.39 | rue_mohr | so I should litter the user directories with it? |
| 04:28.54 | rue_mohr | like, home directories? |
| 04:29.11 | themill | You should have a sensible place for source code that does not require you to interact with source code and compilers as root. |
| 04:29.18 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: I'm not the best person to speak about this but a good approach to compliation on debian is to use debootstrap to create a chrooted environment in which to build. You can then install in that chroot the *-dev packages needed for compliation and then go on to build as a regular user. |
| 04:30.00 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: When done you can take the result (often a .deb file) and install that out of the chroot. And cleanup is easy. Delete the chroot. |
| 04:30.40 | rue_mohr | I compile all my programs to an a.out and put them in their on directory under the program name in /usr/local/bin |
| 04:30.40 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: That way you don't wind up with lots-o-*-dev packages installed on your system. |
| 04:30.44 | themill | As for your compilation question, fc_copy_file_if_different is provided by cmake itself. |
| 04:30.46 | rue_mohr | hmm |
| 04:30.54 | themill | err, by freecad itself |
| 04:30.56 | rue_mohr | themill, yes! |
| 04:31.19 | rue_mohr | so your implying cmake isn't installed? |
| 04:31.32 | rue_mohr | which is odd, cause cmake issued the error |
| 04:31.38 | themill | did not say that |
| 04:32.03 | rue_mohr | ok |
| 04:32.21 | rue_mohr | if I seem like a jerk, its cause I'm kinda frustrated right now |
| 04:32.29 | themill | You do, yes. |
| 04:32.46 | rue_mohr | ok so, running cmake results in Unknown CMake command "fc_copy_file_if_different" |
| 04:33.00 | rue_mohr | so I should check the cmake version I have |
| 04:33.19 | rue_mohr | as fc_copy_file_if_different must have been a recent addition that I dont have via debian latency |
| 04:33.30 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: (FWIW, if you are unfamiliar with various ways to keep your debian system running over periods of years or decades you might want to start with the "don't break debian" page on the debian wiki. I believe it has pointers to things like "stow" and other stuff which assists with how to install and live with non-debian software.) |
| 04:33.58 | rue_mohr | my main system was installed in 2001 (this one) |
| 04:34.07 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: Jolly good! :) |
| 04:34.16 | themill | which release of Debian are you running? |
| 04:34.31 | rue_mohr | less 64 bit, the notion of reinstalling has seemed silly |
| 04:34.56 | rue_mohr | 8.8 |
| 04:35.12 | rue_mohr | believe me, there have been some battles |
| 04:35.39 | themill | I'm not sure that you can complain about "Debian latency" in delivery packages when you intentionally run a rather out of date release |
| 04:35.47 | rue_mohr | cmake version 3.13.4 |
| 04:35.49 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: Anyway, everybody is free to do what they want but some people here (not me) have some serious experience with compliation and cross-compliation and architecture simulation and so forth which appears to be very useful. |
| 04:35.54 | rue_mohr | does ^^ that have that missing command? |
| 04:36.12 | themill | It's not a cmake command, it's a macro within the freecad packge |
| 04:36.23 | rue_mohr | ok, |
| 04:36.36 | rue_mohr | which to me implies a dependency missing? |
| 04:37.23 | rue_mohr | or is the cmake stuff broken for the freecad source package? |
| 04:37.43 | rue_mohr | question, would you like to give compiling freecad a try and see if I'm insane? |
| 04:37.45 | themill | it's clearly not a problem with cmake or the debian source package |
| 04:37.58 | themill | I don't need to try, the debian buildd already does it |
| 04:38.17 | rue_mohr | so, shouldn't this compile work without that error? |
| 04:38.24 | themill | https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=freecad&suite=sid |
| 04:38.51 | themill | I can't say that I can care much about backporting things back two releases. |
| 04:40.07 | rue_mohr | so, your telling me, that if you do apt-get build-dep freecad and apt-get source freecad you will be able to run cmake with no issues |
| 04:40.27 | rue_mohr | dispite the fact I cant.... |
| 04:40.34 | themill | didn't say that |
| 04:40.44 | rue_mohr | <themill> it's clearly not a problem with cmake or the debian source package |
| 04:40.55 | rue_mohr | ? |
| 04:41.18 | rue_mohr | unless there is something I'm not considering, then that makes it a problem with me |
| 04:41.22 | themill | just because it doesn't work on whatever weird butchered system you're running doesn't mean it's a problem with the packages |
| 04:41.30 | rue_mohr | which is a good reason for someone else to try? |
| 04:43.18 | rue_mohr | so apt-get build-dep must have failed |
| 04:43.18 | themill | Or you could just upgrade to a supported release rather than making everyone else do work for you |
| 04:43.18 | rue_mohr | otherwise the system would have what it needs to compile the system |
| 04:43.18 | rue_mohr | how about if I told you I'm compiling this on another machine thats 9.7 |
| 04:43.18 | rue_mohr | cause the packages it wanted to remove to install the build-dep on my system were packages I want to keep |
| 04:43.18 | rue_mohr | :) |
| 04:43.58 | themill | that's still an entire release earlier than I'd expect to work |
| 04:44.25 | rue_mohr | well its a scrap machine |
| 04:44.35 | rue_mohr | shall I show you it doing the same thing a version up? |
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| 04:47.22 | rue_mohr | #debian wont help till I'v upgraded the system, Its going to take a while, shall we try again tommorow? |
| 04:47.26 | rue_mohr | erp... |
| 04:47.33 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: Thing is, freecad on buster is at version 0.18~pre1+dfsg1-5. Trying to compile that on stretch (debian 9) still might not work. (The judd bot's "checkbackports" command can be helpful here.) |
| 04:47.39 | themill | ,checkbackport freecad --torelease jessie --fromrelease buster |
| 04:48.04 | rue_mohr | well the guy I'm helping is trying to compile it on buster |
| 04:48.05 | karlpinc | Judd seems really slow just now. |
| 04:48.07 | judd | Backporting package freecad in busterâjessie/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 11~), libcoin-dev, libeigen3-dev (>= 3.3~beta1), libocct-data-exchange-dev, libocct-ocaf-dev, libocct-visualization-dev, libpyside2-dev, libshiboken2-dev, libvtk7-dev, occt-draw, pyside2-tools, python-pyside2.qtcore, python-pyside2.qtgui, python-pyside2.qtsvg, python- |
| 04:48.08 | judd | pyside2.qtwidgets, python3-pyside2.qtcore, python3-pyside2.qtgui, python3-pyside2.qtsvg, python3-pyside2.qtwidgets. |
| 04:48.10 | themill | â basically, give up. |
| 04:48.22 | themill | karlpinc: yes, verifying that packages don't exist is very slow |
| 04:48.37 | rue_mohr | hey so wait a sec |
| 04:48.55 | rue_mohr | your telling me that you just confirmed the package cant be built? |
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| 04:49.09 | rue_mohr | :( I just started a huge ugly upgrade |
| 04:49.22 | themill | not in a Debian package. Who knows about your mixed up system |
| 04:49.36 | rue_mohr | I'm not trying this on my mixed up system |
| 04:49.44 | rue_mohr | I'm trying it on one thats up to 9.7 |
| 04:49.52 | rue_mohr | higher in a bit... |
| 04:49.57 | rue_mohr | well, by morning... |
| 04:50.24 | rue_mohr | under 10.1 we have the same compile issue |
| 04:50.34 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: It is really advised to read and follow the release notes when doing a major upgrade. |
| 04:50.38 | rue_mohr | Unknown CMake command "fc_copy_file_if_different". |
| 04:50.56 | rue_mohr | it was installed fresh by the other guy |
| 04:50.57 | karlpinc | rue_mohr: (Which you must know, if your system is that old. Anyway, it has things to do to avoid problems.) |
| 04:50.59 | themill | sounds like you've either broken your cmake installation or you're not invoking it correctly |
| 04:51.02 | rue_mohr | clean buster install |
| 04:51.24 | themill | you've upgraded from 8.8 to 9.7 to 10.1 in faster than any of these things actually happen |
| 04:51.40 | rue_mohr | on a clean buster install 10.1, the source package wont compile with a cmake error Unknown CMake command "fc_copy_file_if_different". |
| 04:51.46 | themill | We *know* that the package compiles just fine in buster, |
| 04:51.47 | rue_mohr | no, he did a clean install |
| 04:51.56 | rue_mohr | well we cant verify that |
| 04:52.05 | rue_mohr | cause we have a clean 10.1 install that wont |
| 04:52.52 | rue_mohr | I should have gone there when version became an argument, sorry |
| 04:52.55 | themill | Two things, (a) we don't need to because Debian does, and (b) I have because I threw it at my buildd about 15min ago |
| 04:53.35 | rue_mohr | you ran cmake ok? |
| 04:54.05 | rue_mohr | thankyou, I'm glad SOMEONE can compile it!!! |
| 04:54.37 | rue_mohr | so then we just need to figure out why my buddy with a clean install cant |
| 04:54.43 | themill | https://buildd.debian.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=freecad&arch=amd64&ver=0.18%7Epre1%2Bdfsg1-5&stamp=1551544135&raw=0 |
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| 04:55.24 | rue_mohr | oh you didn't hand build it |
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| 04:55.34 | themill | Why would I hand build a package? |
| 04:55.50 | rue_mohr | some people do that with software |
| 04:55.56 | rue_mohr | to make mods and stuff |
| 04:56.27 | rue_mohr | what does a magic cloud building machine do that we didn't by hand? |
| 04:56.46 | rue_mohr | https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/CompileOnUnix |
| 04:57.00 | rue_mohr | if you scroll to 'out-of-source build' |
| 04:57.07 | rue_mohr | there are command line instructions |
| 04:57.13 | themill | have fun |
| 04:57.34 | rue_mohr | they should work after someone has run apt-get build-dep freecad and apt-get source freecad |
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| 04:58.10 | rue_mohr | its interesting to hear that people dont even touch sourcecode anymore tho |
| 04:58.39 | rue_mohr | so, when developing they just git push it to the cloud and it tells them if it works? |
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| 04:58.58 | rue_mohr | apt-get source is depreciated? |
| 04:59.29 | rue_mohr | some sorta stop-gap for transferring the new source control systems that come up every 7 years? |
| 05:00.34 | rue_mohr | I suppose with rust, people aren't really even doing the coding anymore either |
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| 05:01.39 | rue_mohr | this kinda explains ##whitequark |
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| 05:02.09 | rue_mohr | :( I am so crazy low-level |
| 05:03.09 | rue_mohr | how then, for packages like asterisk, do people change the configuration for a compile? |
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| 05:09.24 | rue_mohr | heh, back to my ADS1115 C source code for my stm32 stored in a non-git controlled local file on my desktop computer :) |
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| 05:09.52 | rue_mohr | I have a wired keyboard and a wired ball mouse tOOOoOOoooo :) |
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| 05:16.08 | NetGirl | why use iptables syntax if the nft tool is replacing it? |
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| 05:19.55 | annadane | presumably it's just because before nftables you obviously couldn't have nftables syntax and people don't want to change their settings so nftables provides an iptables compatibility wrapper guy person thing |
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| 05:34.42 | brandon_ | hello |
| 05:35.04 | Taco_Me_Gusta | aloha |
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| 06:31.55 | z8z | Hello, my debian 10 with mate desktop is scanning any external harddrive archive with this atril-thumbnailer process keeping 1 core of my cpu at 100%. When this s**t has been introduced in debian mate desktop? Parent process is caja btw. |
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| 06:39.00 | maxrazer | z8z, I don't know. But I've tried lots of desktops. I use XFCE. I could also try KDE. |
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| 06:39.40 | annadane | that... doesn't really answer their question |
| 06:39.56 | z8z | I have no idea why they dont leave this crap for distros like Ubuntu and keep it out from Debian |
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| 06:44.50 | oiaohm | z8z: problem is it very hard to pick what the long term winners will be. |
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| 06:45.28 | z8z | oiaohm: What do you even mean? |
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| 06:57.29 | jelly | z8z: perhaps ask in #mate whether this is an upstream feature and how to disable it |
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| 06:58.02 | jelly | I kad to disable similar smart search / indexing functionality in KDE a while back |
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| 07:05.52 | tomreyn | z8z: i guess if you can live with disabling pdf thumbnails in general, you could https://askubuntu.com/questions/518889/how-to-disable-thumbnail-generation |
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| 07:07.53 | lioh | hi all. what is the difference between vim.basic and vim.tiny? and which one is more powerful? |
| 07:07.55 | z8z | tomreyn: What i cant understand is why this crap is enabled by default. This sounds like those apps that send usage data by default and if you complain they tell you "You can disable it" |
| 07:08.38 | tomreyn | i can't help with complaints, just potential solutions |
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| 07:20.24 | valdyn | lioh: vim.tiny < vim.basic < vim.gtk3. Look at the package descriptions. |
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| 07:31.17 | cpd8 | I installed the firmware-10.1.0-amd64-netinst image, after grub I am just left with a black screen. Any ideas? |
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| 08:40.03 | Mathisen | quick question is the Libarchive vulnerability fixed in buster yet ? can recall if i have updated it in past days. just reading about it now |
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| 08:40.30 | Mathisen | can't* |
| 08:42.03 | rudi_s | Mathisen: zcat /usr/share/doc/libarchive13/changelog.Debian.gz|head says yes. |
| 08:42.21 | Mathisen | thanks |
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| 08:42.29 | rudi_s | np |
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| 08:45.29 | jelly | Mathisen: if you have a CVE number you can look it up on |
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| 08:45.32 | jelly | !tracker of doom |
| 08:45.32 | dpkg | The Tracker of Doom is a vulnerability database maintained by the Debian security team, viewable at http://security-tracker.debian.org/ . Ask me about <cve lookup CVE-yyyy-nnnn> to get Debian-specific information on a CVE number. See also http://www.debian.org/security/crossreferences or ask me about <debsecan> http://www.enyo.de/fw/software/debsecan/ |
| 08:46.26 | Mathisen | adds that url to his list. along with zcat never used that before :) |
| 08:47.24 | annadane | it's a cat that's fallen asleep |
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| 08:49.23 | Mathisen | to may cats.. cat ccat and now zcat |
| 08:49.40 | Mathisen | but i do like cats :) |
| 08:49.48 | annadane | i've never heard of ccat |
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| 08:50.03 | Mathisen | more or less cat with syntax highlighting or colors |
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| 08:50.55 | jelly | so the opposite of greycat |
| 08:51.19 | k_sze | Does the update-ca-certificates command care if the local certificates (under /usr/local/share/ca-certificates/) are in a certain format? |
| 08:51.30 | k_sze | I know it wants files *ending in .crt*. |
| 08:51.45 | k_sze | But if I understand correctly, a .crt file can be in either DER or PEM format. |
| 08:51.51 | jelly | k_sze: make them PEM to be safe |
| 08:52.09 | k_sze | jelly, le sigh |
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| 08:52.43 | k_sze | There's a tutorial that says to convert to DER format first: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-install-ca-certificates-in-ubuntu-server/ |
| 08:52.46 | jelly | linux tools seldom like binary cert formats. Except for java. |
| 08:52.51 | k_sze | And so I have no idea if I'm doing it correctly. |
| 08:52.59 | k_sze | converting to DER format doesn't seem to make sense. |
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| 08:53.13 | jelly | k_sze: I have no idea how "ubuntu server" differs from Debian in this regard |
| 08:53.38 | k_sze | jelly, I know, right? It really shouldn't be different, given that Ubuntu is based on Debian. |
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| 08:54.17 | jelly | maybe, maybe not. If derivatives did not make changes, there wouldn't be any reason to make derivatives |
| 08:54.55 | k_sze | I don't think that's something worth changing. It would be waaaay too obscure. |
| 08:56.00 | jelly | discussing it here is not useful, since we. Just. Don't. Know. |
| 08:56.59 | jelly | I know however that putting our $work CA in /usr/local/share/ca-certificates/extra/company-CERT.crt in PEM works, on Debian 8 onwards |
| 08:57.16 | ratrace | aw, c'mon, it's based on debian. we MUST know. |
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| 09:09.22 | McErroneous | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:09.53 | annadane | sorry, /exit only works on debian-based irc |
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| 09:15.36 | ratrace | annadane: +1 |
| 09:16.31 | k_sze | What does the --fresh flag of update-ca-certificates actually do? The manpage makes it sound quite scary. |
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| 09:16.57 | k_sze | It removes symlinks from /etc/ssl/certs/?? |
| 09:17.10 | k_sze | But that directory is *full* of symlinks. |
| 09:18.19 | k_sze | Looks like that's exactly what it does, if I read the update-ca-certificates file. |
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| 09:22.43 | k_sze | Is that what I use if I want to remove a local root CA? |
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| 09:39.57 | jelly | k_sze: if you deleted the file from /usr/local/share/ca-certificates/ and just ran update-ca-certificates, those ought to be enough |
| 09:40.25 | jelly | k_sze: if it's not enough, you can certainly try to --fresh, or "dpkg-reconfigure ca-certificates" maybe |
| 09:40.51 | k_sze | jelly, update-ca-certificates reports how many added and how many deleted. |
| 09:41.15 | k_sze | The thing is, it just said 0 removed after I deleted the file. |
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| 09:41.29 | k_sze | So I had doubts about how it works. |
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| 09:55.50 | hmpf1 | Hi! Is there an easy way to avoid debootstrap to install 35 MB of locales? It's for an embedded device. And even the minbase has locales. |
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| 10:16.27 | dob1 | I see some commands, piped ones, where there is the "-" for exampe, cat foo | somecommand - |
| 10:16.29 | dob1 | what is the -? |
| 10:17.03 | dob1 | why it is needed? |
| 10:17.13 | jelly | k_sze: it might have been 0 removed if the thins was never added in the first place due to unrecognized file name or file format |
| 10:18.42 | jelly | dob1: it's a syntax convention that usually means "use standard input instead of an input file" or "use standard output instead of output file", depending on whether the tool is looking for input or output |
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| 10:19.05 | jelly | dob1: should be documented in the manual for each specific somecommand |
| 10:19.34 | dob1 | jelly, so it's related to the command ? |
| 10:19.53 | dob1 | it's not something general? it's an arg for the command that it uses in some way |
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| 10:27.09 | jelly | dob1: as far as I konw it's just a common convention |
| 10:27.56 | dob1 | jelly, but the program itsels treat it as a special case ? like if args='-' then .... |
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| 10:45.58 | jelly | dob1: yes |
| 10:46.24 | jelly | it has to be implemented as a special case somewhere in the code |
| 10:47.50 | dob1 | jelly, ok, thanks |
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| 10:53.05 | vishnu | hi |
| 10:53.07 | gladioacuto | hello |
| 10:53.28 | gladioacuto | I have no sound anymore on my laptop after upgrading from stretch to buster |
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| 10:53.40 | gladioacuto | any suggestion? how to fix? |
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| 11:03.34 | gladioacuto | back again sorry |
| 11:03.44 | gladioacuto | did i miss any answer? |
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| 11:05.06 | annadane | nope |
| 11:05.17 | annadane | just me asking you to please not crosspost to OFTC |
| 11:05.25 | annadane | !crosspost |
| 11:05.25 | dpkg | Posting the same question in several places at the same time (IRC channels, news groups, mailing lists, forums) is impolite; your time is NOT more valuable than everyone else's. Your question might be answered elsewhere, meanwhile we are wasting our time doing research for a problem you've already solved. Cross-posting can also make you look like a spammer and get you k:lined. See also <multiple ask> <hurry>. |
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| 11:38.31 | Kats99 | Locales: A double-quoted string preceded by a dollar sign will cause the string to be translated according to the current locale. If the current locale is "C" or "POSIX", the dollar sign is ignored. If the string is translated and replaced, the replacement is double-quoted. |
| 11:38.38 | Kats99 | what does this mean |
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| 12:00.06 | hmpf1 | Hi, I noticed the package rssh is no longer availabel in buster. Where can I find out why and what could replace it? |
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| 12:04.00 | ratrace | hmpf1: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=923691 |
| 12:04.00 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/923691 in ftp.debian.org (closed): «RM: rssh -- ROM; orphaned upstream, flawed security model»; severity: normal; opened: 2019-03-03; last modified: 2019-04-02. |
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| 12:04.46 | ratrace | hmpf1: what do you want to do, limit some uses to sftp only? |
| 12:04.51 | ratrace | *users |
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| 12:05.18 | hmpf1 | thanks thats helpfull. How would I find that info myself? So I don't have to bother you guys. |
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| 12:05.47 | hmpf1 | ratrace: no I want to limit an ssh login to scp in a limited chroot environment. |
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| 12:08.06 | tomreyn | scp has its own issues, better use sftp |
| 12:08.33 | tomreyn | the latter is also easy to setup with openssh as a chroot |
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| 12:14.11 | ratrace | hmpf1: via https://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt and there's also bug reports, news, or excuses listed in the package tracker: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/rssh |
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| 12:14.26 | ratrace | and there's a judd command that I forgot... |
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| 12:16.03 | ratrace | hmpf1: ah found it |
| 12:16.12 | ratrace | judd: bug rm rssh |
| 12:16.14 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/923691 in ftp.debian.org (closed): «RM: rssh -- ROM; orphaned upstream, flawed security model»; severity: normal; opened: 2019-03-03; last modified: 2019-04-02. |
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| 12:17.42 | hmpf1 | ratrace: cool, thanks, I'll look stuff up first next time. |
| 12:18.00 | hmpf1 | tomreyn: whats the issue with scp? it worked well for us so far. |
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| 12:19.35 | vampirefrog | hi, I am looking for some help with xbindkeys, any idea where I can ask? basically I've bound Win + scroll wheel to volume, but the browser still receives the scroll events (sublime text and hexchat don't though), when pressing Win while scrolling |
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| 12:20.33 | ratrace | hmpf1: the protocol is being deprecated and openssh devs recommend against using it. there was also a vuln recently with the openssh implementation |
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| 12:21.22 | hmpf1 | ok, so I guess it's time to update our tooling on that end. Thanks. |
| 12:22.23 | ratrace | vampirefrog: xorg apps can randomly overtake bindings |
| 12:22.48 | ratrace | %s/randomly // |
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| 12:35.39 | no_gravity | Hello! Any ideas where to submit a bug in vims syntax highlighting for yaml? |
| 12:39.41 | vampirefrog | I would guess, on vim's tracker, no_gravity |
| 12:40.00 | vampirefrog | ratrace, thanks, I can live with it, I guess |
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| 12:40.28 | no_gravity | vampirefrog: You mean here? https://github.com/vim/vim/issues |
| 12:41.03 | vampirefrog | no_gravity, looks like it, but I wouldn't know for sure. Can't hurt to submit it there, I guess |
| 12:41.03 | no_gravity | vampirefrog: It looks like issues regarding syntax highlighting are always replied to with "Contact the maintainer of that file" there. |
| 12:41.19 | vampirefrog | oh then you need to find the syntax highlight file |
| 12:41.28 | no_gravity | It's probabyl this one: https://github.com/vim/vim/blob/master/runtime/syntax/yaml.vim |
| 12:41.33 | no_gravity | But who is the maintainer? |
| 12:41.47 | vampirefrog | I mean it says it on the third line |
| 12:42.07 | no_gravity | :) |
| 12:42.43 | no_gravity | Latest Revision: 2015-03-28 ... |
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| 12:45.58 | vampirefrog | guess he won't mind some attention |
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| 12:46.08 | no_gravity | I'm writing him an email ... |
| 12:47.05 | vampirefrog | mention me in there too, I don't mind making new friends |
| 12:47.17 | no_gravity | Lol |
| 12:47.26 | no_gravity | What are you working on? |
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| 12:49.11 | vampirefrog | tell him I'm an astronaut so he'll think I'm cool |
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| 12:49.26 | no_gravity | It could be fun to put up a job to fix it which is paid if and when the solution goes into the vim repo. |
| 12:50.03 | vampirefrog | you can probably fix it in your spare time |
| 12:50.06 | no_gravity | I would not mind paying for it. But I only get a benefit if it actually lands in vim. |
| 12:50.08 | vampirefrog | in like 1 hour |
| 12:50.31 | no_gravity | Sure. But my mission is to work less with computers and more with people. |
| 12:50.32 | vampirefrog | maybe find their IRC channel and bother someone about the syntax of syntax files |
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| 12:50.42 | no_gravity | "their"? |
| 12:50.51 | vampirefrog | im sure vim has an IRC |
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| 12:51.04 | vampirefrog | yep, try #vim, they have over 1k users |
| 12:51.07 | no_gravity | Yeah, but I don't think the maintainers use it. |
| 12:51.15 | no_gravity | I hang out there pretty often. |
| 12:51.20 | vampirefrog | no I mean to ask about the syntax format |
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| 13:16.33 | deadrom | hi |
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| 13:18.15 | dvs | oi |
| 13:18.17 | deadrom | file server mounted via NFSv4. ddresuce iso to thumb drive attached locally. ggrescue spools up to 800MB/s and tells me after 3 seconds "Finished". that stays for as long as the real write takes, in the meanwhile I can't see if there are any problems, real progress speed etc. |
| 13:18.56 | deadrom | how come? |
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| 13:19.14 | deadrom | gah, ddrescue of course |
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| 13:28.31 | vlt | deadrom: Is NFS relevant here? Does this happen similarly when reading from a local file system? (I'd presume yes.) |
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| 13:29.06 | vlt | deadrom: I think it's some buffering for the device written to. |
| 13:29.13 | annadane | what is the underlying technology virt-manager uses? i want to virtualize something but don't want to install virt-manager just yet as it pulls in a million dependencies, how do i virtualize in a quick and dirty way? |
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| 13:30.25 | annadane | meh i can apt show it |
| 13:30.31 | annadane | i'm really lazy with questions, sorry |
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| 13:32.30 | vlt | annadane: Maybe qemu. |
| 13:33.34 | dka | Hi, I am trying to start hexchat on startup (debian, cinnamon), I have create a startup that use `hexchat --minimize=2`, but instead, I have hexchat starting full screen and if I minimize it, it doesn't go to system tray. I always need to close it and start it one more time. Any Idea what to do ? |
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| 13:34.47 | deadrom | vlt: directly from local disk is different, pumps buffers full then averages mb/s over local buffer use, starting at 600MB/s then dropping to the thumb drives' speed eventually |
| 13:34.53 | RoyK | dka: use irssi or weechat in a tmux or screen ;) |
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| 13:39.06 | vlt | deadrom: Hmmm, then I have no idea. |
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| 13:41.55 | RoyK | anonymip: virt-manager uses qemu, which can use kvm, lxc and others without issues |
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| 13:42.14 | RoyK | damn, taht was for annadone, who apparently left |
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| 13:43.16 | anonymip | hehe, np |
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| 13:48.44 | Scruloose | Can anyone point me at an easy way to install Deluge 2.0 on a Buster system? It doesn't seem to be in buster-backports. |
| 13:49.28 | petn-randall | !bat |
| 13:49.28 | dpkg | In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use https://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>. |
| 13:49.38 | petn-randall | Scruloose: You can try it with this ^^^ |
| 13:49.44 | petn-randall | ,checkbackport deluge |
| 13:49.45 | judd | Backporting package deluge in sidâbuster/amd64: all build-dependencies satisfied using buster. |
| 13:50.12 | petn-randall | Scruloose: Also looks like a straightforward recompile without needing to backport any other packages. ^ |
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| 13:53.45 | Scruloose | Sorry, by "with this", do you mean ask the dpkg bot? |
| 13:54.02 | petn-randall | Argh, wrong factoid |
| 13:54.08 | petn-randall | !ssb |
| 13:54.08 | dpkg | First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>. |
| 13:54.13 | petn-randall | Scruloose: ^ |
| 13:56.14 | Scruloose | Ah, that looks promising. Thanks! |
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| 14:06.39 | dka | Using US international layout, how can I do a degree sign ? |
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| 14:08.53 | ksk | looking at wikipedia, does not seem to be on there..? |
| 14:10.05 | ksk | further googleing reveals "The degree symbol is on AltGr-Shift-0-0 in the "English [...]" - tried that? |
| 14:10.09 | ksk | dka: ^ |
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| 14:10.55 | greycat | ° via Compose-o-o for me. See https://wiki.debian.org/XCompose |
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| 14:12.51 | metbsd | i have a printer on windows share. it's not visible by ios. Can i setup this printer on linux and share it with ios? |
| 14:13.45 | dka | ksk does not work |
| 14:13.53 | dka | Oh yes it does |
| 14:13.55 | dka | thanks |
| 14:14.00 | vampirefrog | -o-o |
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| 14:16.23 | dka | ksk, how did you find that information ? |
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| 14:19.17 | petn-randall | Now I'm curious, too. I always switched to German keyboard for this. However, on US english layout I cannot reproduce the ° output with "altgr shift 0 0". I get ]. |
| 14:19.45 | petn-randall | compose o o works, though :) |
| 14:19.48 | petn-randall | Nice! |
| 14:20.00 | greycat | What is "altgr" for you? Do you actually have such a key, or is it emulated via xmodmap? |
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| 14:21.03 | humbot | i have a key called AltGr, it produces a whole load of useful stuff in tty |
| 14:21.18 | humbot | like âfancy quotesâ |
| 14:21.19 | petn-randall | I have a physical "altgr" key, yes. |
| 14:21.31 | greycat | So, not a pure US english layout then. ;-) |
| 14:21.41 | ksk | dka: google "debian inputting degree sign" - but what the grey cat refered you too looks like a way more debian-ish way to solve that ;) |
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| 14:21.53 | ksk | s/too/to/ |
| 14:22.18 | petn-randall | Yes, German keyboard, US enlish layout, because the special chars have better placement than on the German keyboard. It's nicer for programming. |
| 14:25.13 | petn-randall | Ã¥ÄÉï¬Ä¸Â°qÃÅà |
| 14:25.18 | petn-randall | wooooo :) |
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| 14:27.11 | GenTooMan | petn-randall I never thought about that, how keyboard placement affects programming, likely because of many (computer) languages for programming being written in psuedo english. |
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| 14:31.00 | MarynD | Hi |
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| 14:33.06 | petn-randall | GenTooMan: square and round brackets ()[] are convenient on the US english keyboard. On the German one it's AltGr + 8 or 9 for [], which requires you to move your hand away from the base line. Also ; is two keypresses instead of one. And many more. :) |
| 14:33.46 | greycat | on a pure US keyboard, () are Shift-9 and Shift-0 |
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| 14:34.58 | greycat | and [] are standalone keys to the right of P, {} are Shift-[ and Shift-], and <> are Shift-, and Shift-. |
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| 14:38.31 | petn-randall | In the case of () it's shift + 8 or 9 on German, so it's roughly the same. But other symbols like '@\|/{}~ are more inconvenient, most of the time requiring some combination of AltGr + a further away key. |
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| 14:38.38 | FinalX | ,v openssl |
| 14:38.39 | judd | Package: openssl on amd64 -- jessie: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u8; jessie-security: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u12; stretch: 1.1.0k-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; buster: 1.1.1c-1; buster-proposed-updates: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u2; buster-security: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u2; bullseye: 1.1.1d-2; sid: 1.1.1d-2 |
| 14:38.41 | metbsd | i have a printer on windows share. it's not visible by ios. Can i setup this printer on linux and share it with ios? |
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| 14:40.07 | petn-randall | metbsd: IIRC iOS uses, just like Mac OS X, zeroconf/bonjour to discover printers. So yes, you can set that service up in Debian. |
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| 14:44.21 | GenTooMan | greycat likely the [] are left overs from a time when braces were more commonly used than curly braces. I believe the layout is partly for convenience and likely based on statistical analysis (slide rule era?) |
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| 14:59.29 | Ede|Popede | what are the files in /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d? what do they contain? they are not mentioned in man gpg, man apt doesn't even contain the string gpg. is it secret debian information? |
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| 15:00.26 | greycat | well, they have names like debian-archive-stretch-automatic.gpg so it's probably the per-release keys |
| 15:02.32 | Ede|Popede | and what is inside them? all that gpg seems to be able to do is to create a dot dir in my home and to wait for commands. |
| 15:02.39 | greycat | Also, dpkg -S says they come from a package named debian-archive-keyring and you can get the description for that package, etc. |
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| 15:03.24 | greycat | "The Debian project digitally signs its Release files. This package contains the archive keys used for that." |
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| 15:07.10 | Ede|Popede | i've seen the readme. no useful information at all |
| 15:07.29 | Ede|Popede | so the blobs are supposed to be used in an unknown way by some systemtools only |
| 15:07.43 | greycat | It sounds like you do not understand what gpg is, or what "digitally signs" means. |
| 15:08.03 | greycat | But yeah, you do not interact with them yourself. They're used by apt. |
| 15:09.20 | Ede|Popede | well i know this is to prove that you did it and noone else. but i also tried to understand that whole concept with zimmermann's PGP in the days when i had to download the book from a non-us server. and no, i never got through it. |
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| 15:09.57 | Ede|Popede | maybe because all documentation is written for people with a computer degree |
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| 15:10.39 | GenTooMan | Think of it as to how windows verifies updates et al are Secure and verifiable. |
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| 15:11.29 | Michael___ | Hi there, someone there who can help me with understanding problems with Openldap on Buster? |
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| 15:12.09 | Ede|Popede | and actually i never needed this stuff besides for what debian uses it. i am in no relationship to the NSA or the FSB or whatever. i don't even care if some services or my provider can read my mail, i never had anything more relevant in them than somm address or a phone number. |
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| 15:12.44 | Ede|Popede | GenTooMan: how does windows do this? didn't use it in more than a decade |
| 15:13.04 | greycat | GenTooMan: nice try... |
| 15:13.29 | Ede|Popede | and btw, how can a windows update be secure? it installs windows on your PC.... |
| 15:13.59 | greycat | Ede|Popede: when you do "apt update" or similar, apt downloads a list of the currently available packages and their checksums. This list is signed. Apt uses the files in the keyring (the ones we've been talking about) to verify this signature. |
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| 15:15.40 | Ede|Popede | greycat: that's what i thought. but is that blob the *natural* form of existence for that info? means, the developer has some tool (i bet it is pgp itself) gives it some command with some parameters and it spits out that file? |
| 15:16.13 | greycat | At this point, you need to learn how gpg works, and I can't teach it to you. Find a manual. |
| 15:16.44 | Ede|Popede | man pages are meant to make people understand how progams work, right? well... |
| 15:16.57 | greycat | Then find a manual that isn't a man page. |
| 15:17.30 | greycat | try googling "gnupg for dummies" or something (I just did, and it didn't explode) |
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| 15:19.42 | Ede|Popede | it's a pity i didn't save the title of that particular book (for a lot of others i did), found it in a library before i even had internet, was an introduction to the history of cryptography going through all its stages starting with caesar, medieval times, french revolution, enigma, up to what was uptodate when it was written. some DES i think. |
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| 15:20.05 | Scruloose | Ede|Popede: short answer is yes, that's the 'natural' form of this info. Anyone who has the gnupg program can generate a public/private keypair. Gnupg + private key allows signing things, and gnupg + corresponding public key (the things you're asking about) allows verifying those signatures. |
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| 15:21.38 | Ede|Popede | i think i'll go with the official docs first, as usual > https://gnupg.org/documentation/manuals.html (see that "comment" in the bottom right corner?) |
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| 15:24.14 | Ede|Popede | Scruloose: that's about how far i went, maybe i was trying to understand how it works under the hood too hard, but then, i had no real reason to "simply use it". and a GUI with a "Just do it!" button is all but helpful, nothing but a magic wand keeping the mystery. |
| 15:24.42 | Scruloose | petn-randall: My deluged from source is up and running, thanks! Will a regular "apt update" now give me some indication when the source package is updated? I assume I'll need to do the compile-and-install steps periodically to keep it up do date. |
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| 15:25.59 | Scruloose | Ede|Popede: Well, going through a "how to pgp" guide to generate your own keypair and sign some arbitrary file can be fairly demystifying. If you want to fully understand the math behind asymmetric public-key crypto, that's way beyond my pay grade. ;-) |
| 15:26.00 | petn-randall | Scruloose: Yes, you're unfortunately required to track any possible updates by hand. |
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| 15:27.46 | Scruloose | petn-randall: Fair enough. But will I get some sort of output from apt-get update or apt-get upgrade telling me when it's time? |
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| 15:28.42 | petn-randall | Scruloose: No, since your compiled package is not available in any repos. If however some time in the future deluge is available in buster-backports, you'd get notified. |
| 15:29.25 | Scruloose | petn-randall: Good to know; thanks again! |
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| 15:30.12 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I don't know but suspect not. However, there may be a mailing list or something you can subscribe to somewhere in the debian infrastructure that reports when a package is updated. (I've not been paying attention to just what you're doing.) |
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| 15:33.24 | karlpinc | Ede|Popede: As long as you're generating key pairs and using them you might instead want to look into using ssh-keygen, and ~/.ssh/authorized_keys and so forth. I tend to use that way more than php, and the concepts are the same. (Although you don't get the signing v.s. encryping distinction. You do with certs though, so you can play around with that using openssl.) Anyway, ssh keys use basic public/private key pair concepts that |
| 15:33.24 | karlpinc | you're going to need to understand to do more complex stuff. |
| 15:34.24 | karlpinc | s/php/pgp/ |
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| 15:35.34 | MikeDebian | Hi all. I'll be installing nodejs from deb.nodesource.com on a Debian 9 machine that already has Debian nodejs package installed. When trying to purge this Debian package it mentions it is not possible because another package depends on it (libkf5purpose-bin). I would say this package has no dependency on nodejs and from a read online it seems to be a bug. Can you confirm? Is it save to force the purge? |
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| 15:38.17 | petn-randall | !bat |
| 15:38.17 | dpkg | In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use https://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>. |
| 15:38.25 | petn-randall | MikeDebian: Can you provide all the info above? ^^^ |
| 15:38.27 | Ede|Popede | karlpinc: thanks for that trigger. didn't even think of them myself now (as usual). seems hard to find a top down approach not targeting specific use cases, but giving the big picture first, which i always prefer. |
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| 15:38.50 | petn-randall | I'm fairly sure that it's due to the fact that the 3rd party repo is buggy or not suitable for that Debian release. |
| 15:38.52 | greycat | In buster at least, libkf5purpose-bin has a "Recommends:" of nodejs |
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| 15:39.02 | f0x1 | hi, is it just me or is the debian installer unable to remove encrypted volumes? |
| 15:39.25 | petn-randall | f0x1: What error do you get when trying? |
| 15:39.41 | f0x1 | it shows a "no modifications can be made" because it's "in use as physical volume for encrypted volume" |
| 15:39.49 | f0x1 | but I want to remove that encrypted volume |
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| 15:40.19 | petn-randall | f0x1: Did you already remove the volumes that are in the LUKS container? |
| 15:40.39 | f0x1 | yes |
| 15:41.00 | greycat | Aha, it's "Depends: nodejs" in stretch. Different from buster. |
| 15:41.17 | f0x1 | the Encrypted volume is completely empty |
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| 15:44.10 | MikeDebian | petn-randall: here it goes: https://paste.debian.net/1115051 | https://paste.debian.net/1115052 | https://paste.debian.net/1115053/ |
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| 15:45.52 | karlpinc | f0x1: You need to select the underlying real partition and change its type so it is no longer used for LUKS but instead used for whatever you want. (I think.) |
| 15:45.53 | jelly | f0x1: you can always switch to console, wipe the luks format, go back to d-i and restart from re-reading the disk contents |
| 15:46.08 | karlpinc | f0x1: What jelly said also. |
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| 15:46.49 | petn-randall | MikeDebian: `dpkg --purge` is not the correct way to do this, you most likely want `apt purge nodejs`. I also can't see the nodesource repo in your output. Are you trying to install the node package by hand? |
| 15:46.58 | jelly | where's the console, Ctrl-Alt-F2? F3? |
| 15:47.04 | jelly | does not remember |
| 15:47.12 | karlpinc | jelly: One of those. I forget also. |
| 15:47.16 | greycat | during install, f2 is a console |
| 15:47.55 | greycat | f4 is a tailed log file, and I don't remember what f3 is |
| 15:47.59 | karlpinc | f0x1: If it makes you feel better I always have to poke the installer's partitiong/LUKS/LVM interface with a stick until it eventually does what I want. But I can't think of a way to make it better so can't complain. |
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| 15:48.52 | jelly | dpkg, d-i console is <reply>During the debian-installer there's a console waiting with a shell for manual manipulation at Ctrl-Alt-F2. After doing things, go back to the installer on Ctrl-Alt-F1 |
| 15:48.52 | dpkg | console is <reply>During the debian-installer there's a console waiting with a shell for manual manipulation at Ctrl-Alt-F2. After doing things, go back to the installer on Ctrl-Alt-F1, you want to go to http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/debian-installer/ |
| 15:49.04 | jelly | sigh |
| 15:49.28 | f0x1 | karlpinc: you can't select the underlying partition because you're not allowed to modify it |
| 15:49.30 | jelly | dpkg, installer console is <reply>During the debian-installer there's a console waiting with a shell for manual manipulation at Ctrl-Alt-F2. After doing things, go back to the installer on Ctrl-Alt-F1 |
| 15:49.31 | dpkg | okay, jelly |
| 15:49.45 | jelly | is not going to remember that factoid name |
| 15:49.59 | f0x1 | it'd be better if there was an option to delete the crypt partition from the "configure encrypted volumes" menu, similar to how you can delete LVM groups from their respective menu |
| 15:51.05 | karlpinc | f0x1: My guess would be to go into LVM then and do something to delete the physical volume. Anyway, the console will see you through. (You could change the underlying partition type there.) |
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| 15:53.55 | f0x1 | well there's no LVM on that drive anymore |
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| 15:54.08 | lupulo | hi |
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| 15:54.29 | karlpinc | f0x1: No volume groups or physical volumes? |
| 15:55.29 | karlpinc | !tell lupulo about ask |
| 15:55.52 | MikeDebian | petn-randall: I hadn't included deb.nodesource.com repo yet that's why you weren't seeing it there |
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| 15:57.26 | MikeDebian | petn-randall: Anyway, I was able to purge it by not using dpkg but apt instead. Thank you. |
| 15:58.10 | petn-randall | MikeDebian: You're welcome! |
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| 16:06.05 | Furry_Kitty | https://debian-newhomepage.larjona.net/ |
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| 16:06.22 | Furry_Kitty | Is this site affiliated with the Debian project? (https://debian-newhomepage.larjona.net/) |
| 16:06.57 | Furry_Kitty | Is it an official Debian site? It does not sound like it that's why I wanna know. |
| 16:07.05 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: if it's not on .debian.org domain, it's not official |
| 16:07.14 | f0x1 | karlpinc: https://f.0x52.eu/upload/debian-installer.png |
| 16:07.21 | jelly | why do you ask, Furry_Kitty? |
| 16:07.29 | f0x1 | hwo would I delete it from the console? |
| 16:08.05 | Furry_Kitty | jelly, I wanted to know whether it's a new site that's being developed by the Debian project. |
| 16:08.31 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: it might be a proof of concept, sure |
| 16:09.11 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: debian devs often test new stuff on their own domains, or on .debian.net |
| 16:09.12 | greycat | Perhaps a better question is, how did you find this page? |
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| 16:10.13 | jelly | I like the absolutely huge download button. It's pretty clear however it's a dated PoC, seeing as the download button points to stretch... |
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| 16:11.37 | colo-work | I believe that's what the new Debian website is going to look like after the upcoming relaunch |
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| 16:13.19 | Furry_Kitty | greycat, I found this on a Debian telegram group. Someone shared it |
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| 16:13.48 | greycat | ask them where *they* found it, or what it signifies... |
| 16:14.03 | jelly | what's "a Debian telegram group"? |
| 16:14.16 | jelly | googles telegram |
| 16:14.23 | greycat | "Telegram" is some sort of web-based(??) chat or forum thing, apparently. |
| 16:14.30 | mutante | it's an instant messenger |
| 16:14.32 | han-solo | jelly: telegram is an app like whatsapp |
| 16:14.36 | greycat | people keep coming here and asking about it |
| 16:14.51 | greycat | ok, now I just need to figure out what the hell "whatsapp" is |
| 16:14.51 | han-solo | instant messenger is the right word |
| 16:14.53 | Furry_Kitty | greycat, Have already asked. Waiting for a reply |
| 16:15.00 | jelly | han-solo: closed source, cloud-based, single company controlled chat app? |
| 16:15.05 | han-solo | greycat: instant messenger |
| 16:15.11 | mutante | it has a LOT of users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software) |
| 16:15.22 | Furry_Kitty | jelly. The app is open source. The servers are proprietary. |
| 16:15.41 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: yeah, the fact the client is open source is irrelevant really. |
| 16:15.48 | jelly | shit is closed yo |
| 16:15.54 | han-solo | haha |
| 16:15.57 | mutante | the number of monthly Telegram users as of October 2019 is 300 million people worldwide |
| 16:16.02 | jelly | not different from facebook |
| 16:16.11 | han-solo | not very different |
| 16:16.21 | han-solo | but so many APIs for developers |
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| 16:16.40 | jelly | that's only because they're not market leader yet. |
| 16:16.42 | han-solo | which has no relevance in this context |
| 16:16.48 | Furry_Kitty | Is there a way to not see these joining and leaving notes of IRC users? |
| 16:16.55 | lunchslut | depends on your client |
| 16:17.02 | han-solo | jelly: Yeah, maybe |
| 16:17.03 | Furry_Kitty | I use HexChat |
| 16:17.04 | mutante | telegram-desktop is a Debian package, btw |
| 16:17.29 | han-solo | Yeah, i had it installed in debian for work |
| 16:17.34 | Furry_Kitty | telegram-desktop is both a Debian and a Fedora package. Probably available on other distros as well. |
| 16:17.42 | han-solo | apparently some communities have groups in that, |
| 16:17.48 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: right click on channel tab -> Settings -> Hide join/part messages |
| 16:17.58 | lunchslut | telegram is more than just a messenger, it's like its own little network. There are "channels" which are more like twitter feeds, and group chats that are more like IRC channels |
| 16:18.06 | han-solo | and they were very responsive, in the messenger group, so |
| 16:18.10 | f0x1 | Furry_Kitty: arch too |
| 16:18.12 | Furry_Kitty | jelly. Done. Thanks |
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| 16:18.26 | f0x1 | telegram has great UI, terrible backend/crypto tho |
| 16:18.37 | lunchslut | you can find movies, newspapers, music, etc. while i dont think its a great secure option for chatting, its a very comfortable modern chat environment |
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| 16:18.49 | han-solo | oh, i thought it's crypto was somewhat good |
| 16:18.52 | han-solo | mmh |
| 16:18.55 | elichai2 | https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=rustc&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all |
| 16:18.58 | elichai2 | This makes 0 sense |
| 16:19.02 | lunchslut | han-solo: the downside is that it's "roll your own" |
| 16:19.04 | f0x1 | han-solo: nope, it's self rolled and terrible |
| 16:19.10 | han-solo | i see |
| 16:19.12 | elichai2 | why jessie has newer `rustc` than `strech`? |
| 16:19.15 | *** part/#debian diogenes_ (~diogenes_@188.208.121.232) |
| 16:19.22 | greycat | ,v rustc |
| 16:19.23 | judd | Package: rustc on amd64 -- stretch: 1.24.1+dfsg1-1~deb9u4; jessie-security: 1.34.2+dfsg1-1~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 1.34.2+dfsg1-1~deb9u1; buster: 1.34.2+dfsg1-1; bullseye: 1.37.0+dfsg1-1; sid: 1.37.0+dfsg1-1 |
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| 16:19.35 | Furry_Kitty | Are people still using Jessie? |
| 16:19.42 | greycat | stretch-proposed-updates has a "newer" one |
| 16:19.54 | elichai2 | idk. but they definitely use Strech |
| 16:19.58 | jelly | elichai2: different teams are doing stretch and jessie now. |
| 16:20.01 | elichai2 | and 1.24 also has a vulnerability |
| 16:20.17 | elichai2 | https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2019-16760 |
| 16:20.19 | jelly | elichai2: LTS team does security for oldoldstable jessie |
| 16:20.22 | jelly | !jessie-lts |
| 16:20.22 | dpkg | Security support for Debian 8 "Jessie" from the Debian Security Team ended on 2018-05-17. The amd64, i386, armel and armhf architectures will receive additional long term support (<LTS>) via <jessie/updates> until around 2020 for a 5 year lifetime total. See https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information |
| 16:20.24 | han-solo | anyway, that's my exit. Later |
| 16:20.31 | elichai2 | Is there anyone I can contact to get this fixed? |
| 16:20.31 | tharkun | Good $DAY I am looking for a Language Server Protocol under debian repositories. Is there a known one? |
| 16:20.46 | elichai2 | jelly: but not security for Strech? |
| 16:20.52 | jelly | !cve lookup CVE-2019-16760 |
| 16:20.52 | dpkg | Information about the security advisory CVE-2019-16760 may be found at https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2019-16760 |
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| 16:21.04 | jelly | elichai2: Debian Security Team does stretch and buster. |
| 16:21.05 | f0x1 | https://caislab.kaist.ac.kr/publication/paper_files/2017/SCIS17_JU.pdf telegram security analysis. I'd highly recommend Matrix or Signal or anything else with double-ratchet |
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| 16:21.38 | jelly | elichai2: sometimes the LTS people are faster than Debian Security Team. Sometimes |
| 16:21.47 | n4dir | just wanted to say that for a while some recommended signal. Problem is as always: you will have to convince all your friends to use it too |
| 16:22.03 | jelly | elichai2: ... the security team decides an issue is not really critical enough |
| 16:23.18 | jelly | elichai2: whatever the security team does with stable (buster) and oldstable (stretch), you can see the current state on that cve lookup URL / security-tracker.debian.org |
| 16:23.50 | elichai2 | can I ping somehow to look into updating the rust/cargo versions? |
| 16:23.52 | elichai2 | ,v cargo |
| 16:23.53 | judd | Package: cargo on amd64 -- stretch: 0.25.0-3~deb9u1; jessie-security: 0.35.0-2~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 0.35.0-2~deb9u2; buster: 0.35.0-2; bullseye: 0.37.0-3; sid: 0.37.0-3 |
| 16:24.12 | elichai2 | they're not even aligned heh |
| 16:24.57 | greycat | My understanding is that the only reason rust is *in* those releases is because it was needed to build the newer firefox-esr packages. |
| 16:25.04 | greycat | Or maybe it was chromium. |
| 16:25.25 | elichai2 | firefox :) |
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| 16:26.33 | jelly | elichai2: I'm a bit disillusioned and consider ANY cloud-based service as a ticking bomb waiting to disappear under the feet of my users |
| 16:26.42 | riezaizu | any reason why netflix gives "browser not supported" in chromium today, but it worked fine before? |
| 16:26.46 | jelly | that includes the ones I maintain myself |
| 16:27.00 | elichai2 | jelly: what? |
| 16:27.28 | greycat | talking about telegram et al. |
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| 16:27.38 | elichai2 | greycat: FYI. 1.24 isn't enough to build latest firefox https://wiki.mozilla.org/Rust_Update_Policy_for_Firefox |
| 16:27.45 | jelly | elichai2: telegram is not any better than matrix.org. only good matrix instance is the one you host yourself. |
| 16:27.54 | elichai2 | jelly: what do you want from me? |
| 16:28.20 | jelly | oops, that was for Furry_Kitty not you, sorry |
| 16:28.42 | Furry_Kitty | jelly: what? |
| 16:28.49 | elichai2 | ok haha, I was just puzzled :) |
| 16:29.11 | Furry_Kitty | What have you got to tell me jelly? |
| 16:29.31 | greycat | a year from now, or 5 years, or 10 years, telegram will be gone |
| 16:30.05 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: I would not trust this telegram thing to live or not to pivot to FB-like intrusive ads. |
| 16:32.31 | Furry_Kitty | hm |
| 16:32.38 | n4dir | there are still the pages about freedombox on the debian wiki, including "leaving the cloud" |
| 16:35.00 | elichai2 | I sent this to #debian-security in OFTC, hope someone will fix this |
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| 16:35.12 | JordiGH | I'm getting so many Firefox crashes on stable. |
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| 16:35.22 | JordiGH | I'm probably SoL, eh? |
| 16:36.32 | colo-work | worksforme⢠|
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| 16:36.44 | lunchslut | firefox is fine for me on stable, ibus on the other hand.. |
| 16:36.55 | colo-work | have you tried creating a fresh firefox profile, and reproduce with that? |
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| 16:38.52 | jelly | JordiGH: Solaris on Linux? |
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| 16:39.45 | lunchslut | shit out of luck |
| 16:40.18 | jelly | elichai2: the fact there's red on the "stretch" line and a comment with "stretch" and "postponed" down, means they know |
| 16:41.00 | elichai2 | jelly: where? |
| 16:41.09 | jelly | elichai2: on the cve lookup page. |
| 16:41.16 | jelly | elichai2: which you read, right? |
| 16:41.22 | elichai2 | jelly: I wrote :) |
| 16:41.57 | JordiGH | jelly: shit outta louck |
| 16:42.10 | JordiGH | luck |
| 16:42.21 | jelly | JordiGH: that's a lot less funny than mine |
| 16:42.32 | elichai2 | jelly: are you talking about? https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2019-16760 because I see no "Debian" or "Strech" |
| 16:42.34 | JordiGH | colo-work: It looks like it's a segfault, so how the hell do you repro those? |
| 16:42.49 | elichai2 | oh the debian tracker |
| 16:42.51 | elichai2 | https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2019-16760 |
| 16:44.59 | jelly | are you actually compiling rust stuff on stretch, wow |
| 16:45.09 | elichai2 | why not? |
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| 16:45.45 | greycat | because stretch is oldstable, and you've been griping about the age of the tools? |
| 16:46.06 | jelly | rust is a bit of a fast-moving target |
| 16:46.36 | Furry_Kitty | elichai2 : Are you still using Stretch? Why? |
| 16:46.52 | Furry_Kitty | Buster is already released and alive and well. |
| 16:47.07 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: no, we did not ask that |
| 16:47.18 | jelly | at least I didn't |
| 16:47.41 | jelly | but the composition of "rust" and "oldstable" was interesting. |
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| 16:48.23 | jelly | still wheezy in lots of places :-| |
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| 16:50.29 | elichai2 | Furry_Kitty: have users that use |
| 16:50.37 | elichai2 | don't want to just break compatiblity |
| 16:50.45 | Furry_Kitty | hm. |
| 16:51.03 | Furry_Kitty | What about the security? |
| 16:51.17 | jelly | what about it |
| 16:51.42 | Furry_Kitty | Using an outdated OS is not the most secure way to use a system |
| 16:52.04 | jelly | it's not outdated wrt security patches |
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| 16:52.25 | jelly | that's the whole reason for existence of the debian security team? |
| 16:52.45 | jelly | can't spell raison d'etre |
| 16:53.07 | JordiGH | Is oldstable out of security patches? |
| 16:53.11 | jelly | no |
| 16:53.13 | Furry_Kitty | They cannot fully address everything that's fixed in newer Linux kernels which are not available for stretch |
| 16:53.30 | greycat | oldstable is still fully supported, because stable is less than 1 year old right now |
| 16:53.40 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: find a single thing that is not addressed in stretch linux kernel. |
| 16:54.03 | swift110 | hey all |
| 16:54.03 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: and then find if it's addressed in buster kernel. |
| 16:54.07 | JordiGH | I've got a server on oldstable. I need to get around to updating it. |
| 16:54.42 | ratrace | jelly: there's bound to be something. even GKH admitted backporting was not too efficient |
| 16:54.59 | jelly | ratrace, Furry_Kitty: they're BOTH longterm branch kernels. And they have about the same amount of love. |
| 16:55.00 | Furry_Kitty | jelly: if using Stretch is all good, why would then need a newer Debian version with a newer Kernel anyways? |
| 16:55.15 | Furry_Kitty | *they need to release |
| 16:55.16 | ratrace | jelly: from the debian secteam maybe, but not from the upstream. |
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| 16:55.55 | jelly | Furry_Kitty: it's all good for 12 months since buster release, to give users enough time to plan _and execute_ an upgrade on their own time. |
| 16:56.00 | whislock | Furry_Kitty: Eventually, the software versions in oldstable will fall out of support. That "eventually" is not here yet. |
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| 16:56.29 | jelly | ratrace: yeah, go see who's upstream for 3.16 kernel, for example :-) |
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| 16:56.53 | jelly | familiar names! |
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| 16:57.03 | ratrace | kernel.org still is ;) |
| 16:57.24 | jelly | ratrace: and who's listed as maintainer for 3.16 on said kernel.org? |
| 16:58.17 | jelly | ratrace: hint: click the changelog, second line. Compare to members of Debian kernel team. |
| 16:58.27 | ratrace | Ben Hutchings |
| 16:58.40 | oiaohm | https://linuxplumbersconf.org/event/4/contributions/554/attachments/353/584/Reflections__Kernel_Summit_2019.pdf << really this is a good overview of the mess in kernel space on security maintenance that need to be fixed. |
| 16:59.06 | jelly | ratrace: now, do he do that with the upstream hat on, or with the debian kernel hat on, or with the debian security hat on? |
| 16:59.28 | ratrace | why not all three :) |
| 16:59.30 | jelly | or with LTS hat on |
| 16:59.41 | ratrace | but which Debian sports 3.16 kernel? |
| 16:59.51 | jelly | jessie |
| 16:59.52 | greycat | jessie, isn't it? |
| 16:59.53 | ratrace | so stable and oldstable kernels are in purview of GKH |
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| 17:00.33 | jelly | ratrace: honestly I trust bwh more than gkh at this point. |
| 17:00.51 | oiaohm | Some of the reason why not as many security patches don't get backported to older versions like we would hope is the lack of nice solid testsuite to confirm that it broke nothing. |
| 17:01.10 | ratrace | that's just one part of it. the other is lack of upstream CVEs |
| 17:01.17 | jelly | and for the really important stuff, managed to convince $work to buy grsecurity subscription |
| 17:01.22 | ratrace | *an other (it's not just two) |
| 17:01.35 | oiaohm | jelly: really grsecurity does not have the missing bits. |
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| 17:02.40 | jelly | oiaohm: they actively keep track of main tree, have backports that are NOT in longterm trees, and have some generic protections. |
| 17:02.58 | ratrace | but why do you think grsec is so good |
| 17:03.06 | ratrace | did anyone run an independent audit? |
| 17:03.42 | oiaohm | jelly: and it still as broken as any other distribution made kernel. |
| 17:03.59 | oiaohm | jelly: with cases of not all security patches applied. |
| 17:04.02 | jelly | ratrace: I don't need an "independent" audit, not does my boss require one thankfully |
| 17:04.09 | jelly | oiaohm: wfm. |
| 17:04.11 | ratrace | oiaohm: back when it was free for all, it was broken even more. grsec policy used to be, back then at least (pre 4.9) to panic when something suspcious happens |
| 17:04.27 | jelly | oiaohm: it's "not all" but it's quite a bit better than longterm |
| 17:04.30 | ratrace | jelly: so how do you know, then, that you didn't just fall for marketing and hype? |
| 17:04.43 | ratrace | or maybe you ran audits so _you_ know? ;) |
| 17:04.52 | jelly | ratrace: yes. |
| 17:04.56 | jelly | duh! |
| 17:05.00 | ratrace | duh. :) |
| 17:05.11 | oiaohm | jelly: longterm had more patches in it than the grsecurity kernels over all as they did not take in some security fixes that broke their add ons. |
| 17:05.51 | oiaohm | jelly: grsecurity was not a magic cure all bullet . there has been a core problem with secuirty patching and qa with the Linux kernel for a long time. |
| 17:06.26 | jelly | oiaohm: noone says it's a magic buller. It's jsut better than what's available for free. |
| 17:06.31 | whislock | Nothing is a magic cure-all bullet. Not using what improvements are available because they're not perfect is stupid. |
| 17:06.51 | humbot | :v |
| 17:06.54 | ratrace | that's true but I'd need to be convinced there are improvements to begin with. |
| 17:07.09 | ratrace | which would require posessing a set of zerodays and attack both the mainline and grsec kernels and see which one fares better. |
| 17:07.25 | oiaohm | jelly: when it was available for free I did compare grsec to mainline kernel. |
| 17:07.32 | ratrace | now where the flak am I gonna find such zerodays... |
| 17:07.35 | oiaohm | jelly: it was not as good as it was cracked up to be. |
| 17:07.37 | whislock | ratrace: I'm sure there are plenty of orgs out there that will happily accept your money to do just that. |
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| 17:08.02 | jelly | oiaohm: I've used it back in 2.4-2.6 days, and a bit in 3.2 |
| 17:08.20 | ratrace | whislock: gobs of it :) |
| 17:08.22 | jelly | it was VERY useful for multiuser systems. |
| 17:09.00 | ratrace | audits aside, I really did like pax stuff, RBAC and some kernel tunables. |
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| 17:09.10 | jelly | we don't use rbac at all. |
| 17:09.24 | ratrace | do you use any at all? |
| 17:09.38 | jelly | no |
| 17:09.41 | ratrace | well that's funny. |
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| 17:10.20 | jelly | most RHEL machines, setenforce 0 |
| 17:10.26 | jelly | because reasons |
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| 17:10.40 | ratrace | spending gobs of money to get extra security then not using the features it provides. lol. what's the point. it's easier to get pwnt through userland than through kernel (in amount of vulns available) |
| 17:10.44 | oiaohm | jelly: around 2008 some of us started questioning it when we saw this. https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2008-1940/ |
| 17:10.53 | ratrace | jelly: that's just stupid. |
| 17:11.39 | jelly | oiaohm: sure, but again, never having used it meant a big shrug for us |
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| 17:13.13 | jelly | you can get a rough expecation of which features are reliable and which are shiny new shit, given enough time with any piece of software |
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| 17:21.28 | f0x1 | my brand new debian install doesn't seem to load dmcrypt correctly, boot fails because it can't find the volume group |
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| 17:23.48 | ratrace | f0x1: dmcrypt does not even look for the vg. can you pastebin any log entries? |
| 17:25.39 | f0x1 | it loads the initial ramdisk, then keeps on writing "Volume group "ssd" not found", "cannot process volume group ssd" |
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| 17:25.51 | f0x1 | that LVM volume group is inside a luks partition |
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| 17:27.24 | ratrace | f0x1: and is there a crypttab to signal the initramfs to unlock providers before lvm starts detecting? |
| 17:27.41 | f0x1 | ratrace: i'd expect the installer to set that up? |
| 17:28.08 | ratrace | well, is there |
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| 17:32.31 | zellfaze | I have a piece of software that freezes when exiting, and then when the process is killed causes my whole computer to completely lock up. |
| 17:32.43 | zellfaze | I end up having to hard reset it (magic syskey doesnt even work). |
| 17:32.54 | zellfaze | I have no idea where to even begin looking at logs. |
| 17:33.09 | zellfaze | currently has the process hung in the background. |
| 17:33.12 | n4dir | won't hurt to let us know which piece of software. |
| 17:33.16 | zellfaze | Stellaris |
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| 17:34.40 | zellfaze | I am suspecting that it has something to do with the graphics drivers? I'm not sure. |
| 17:34.49 | ratrace | zellfaze: you can enable persistent journal and next time it happens, upon reboot, inspect, say, last 100 lines of previous boot's logs with journalctl -b -1 -n 100 |
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| 17:35.03 | ratrace | zellfaze: that'd be my guess, esp if sysrq doesn't respond. |
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| 17:35.20 | zellfaze | Sure. |
| 17:35.25 | zellfaze | I can do that. |
| 17:35.27 | zellfaze | Thank you. |
| 17:35.36 | ratrace | you can also dig through /var/log/syslog and try to find where the current boot start and look up lines above that. |
| 17:36.03 | ratrace | but that depends on the bug not locking up the IO mechanism.... which might not be the case, if sysrq is failing |
| 17:36.48 | ratrace | alternatively you could ssh in from another machine and tail dmesg with dmesg -w maybe it'll output something before the lockup |
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| 17:37.14 | zellfaze | That's a good idea too. |
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| 17:37.28 | zellfaze | I will have to wait for my room mate to wake before trying that one. |
| 17:37.30 | f0x1 | ratrace: not sure how to mount my LVM from the rescue shell |
| 17:38.09 | ratrace | f0x1: first unlock the luks container. do you know how to do that? |
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| 17:38.17 | f0x1 | yeah already did that |
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| 17:38.24 | ratrace | run vgscan then |
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| 17:39.04 | f0x1 | yeah that found it |
| 17:39.05 | ratrace | or activate it if you know the name: vgchange -a y vg0 assuming vg0 is the name |
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| 17:39.38 | f0x1 | that worked, nice |
| 17:39.50 | zellfaze | Be back in a jiffy. |
| 17:39.59 | f0x1 | there's a crypttab with both luks partitions |
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| 17:40.43 | zellfaze | ...It didn't do it this time. That happens occasionally. It does hang like 90% of the time. So lets just open the game again. xD |
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| 17:41.42 | ratrace | f0x1: can you pastebin it? |
| 17:42.31 | f0x1 | hmm not really as it's qemu |
| 17:42.44 | ratrace | f0x1: no network in it? |
| 17:42.48 | bibble | Debian 10 auto install security updates by default, or have to set it up ? |
| 17:43.21 | greycat | Depends on whether you installed unattended-upgrades or not. (Or if your DE selection installed it for you.) |
| 17:43.22 | zellfaze | bibble: Default |
| 17:43.24 | ratrace | bibble: you can install unattended-upgrades if it isn't already, but I'd recommend against it |
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| 17:43.44 | zellfaze | Oh, you meant like without any interaction. |
| 17:43.57 | zellfaze | I thought you meant would it pull them down with apt-get update upgrade |
| 17:44.06 | bibble | Hmm.. How can you tell if it is ? |
| 17:44.11 | f0x1 | ratrace: it has sda2_crypt UUID=<uuid that corresponds with the drive> none luks, discard |
| 17:44.31 | zellfaze | bibble: Check /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 17:44.48 | ratrace | f0x1: try adding initramfs to the last set of options, so it's luks,discard,initramfs |
| 17:44.54 | zellfaze | There should be a line towards the bottom about security updates. |
| 17:45.15 | ratrace | f0x1: you'll need to chroot and run update-initramfs -u to make the changes effective in the initramfs |
| 17:45.57 | bibble | zellfaze: there's security source. that means it auto installs security updates without manually installing unattended-upgrades ? |
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| 17:46.19 | bibble | ratrace: what is bad about that app ? |
| 17:46.28 | ratrace | bibble: no. you need unattended-upgrades for debian to install them on itself (via systemd timer actually) |
| 17:46.33 | zellfaze | ^ |
| 17:46.38 | bibble | Ah, OK |
| 17:46.47 | zellfaze | That line just means that if you manually run updates you will get security updates. |
| 17:46.51 | f0x1 | ratrace: still no boot |
| 17:47.03 | bibble | zellfaze: ah |
| 17:47.15 | ratrace | bibble: well for starters it doesn't cover kernel updates with reboots, nor does it restart services when a lib updates, so it's PARTIAL update at best. which means you STILL have to manually re-check and apply updates, so why even bother with unattended. |
| 17:47.44 | ratrace | f0x1: and this was a regular installation using debian installer? |
| 17:47.51 | f0x1 | yep |
| 17:47.54 | greycat | if you shut down and restart frequently, it might be good enough |
| 17:47.58 | bibble | ratrace: that's very interesting. yeah, not really worth it then |
| 17:48.11 | ratrace | f0x1: I forgot if there's that checkbox to encrypt it, or you had to set up lvm and crypto providers yourself? |
| 17:48.34 | f0x1 | set up from the "partition manually" menu |
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| 17:48.57 | f0x1 | can I check if the initramfs loads the correct modules easily? |
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| 17:49.54 | ratrace | f0x1: you can lsinitramfs and then check for modules ; but you can troubleshoot this by going back to rescue, mount root again, and pastebin some stuff for us: /boot/grub/grub.cfg and the output of `blkid` |
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| 17:50.45 | ratrace | f0x1: also crypttab --- if you have network in that VM you can cat each to | nc termbin.com 9999 and post URLs here. if you have no network, use a rescue env that does. |
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| 17:51.01 | f0x1 | oki, will do |
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| 17:51.49 | greycat | I wonder how much junk termbin.com gets. |
| 17:52.01 | zellfaze | didn't even know it was a thing. |
| 17:52.04 | zellfaze | is fascinated |
| 17:52.39 | greycat | I run a similar service, MUCH less popular, and almost every submission I get is rubbish from someone trying to use that port as a web proxy or something. |
| 17:52.46 | greycat | https://paste.wooledge.org/367 |
| 17:53.16 | ratrace | proxy probes. my web servers access logs are full of such crap |
| 17:53.23 | zellfaze | Yeah |
| 17:53.41 | zellfaze | It's kind of amazing how little effort it takes to scan the whole Internet these days. |
| 17:54.11 | ratrace | zellfaze: there was this greyhat project, they said they could scan entire ipv4 space in a day. for open ports, that was, I think |
| 17:54.54 | zellfaze | ratrace: Zmap |
| 17:55.01 | zellfaze | "ZMap can scan the entire IPv4 address space in an hour on a single port" |
| 17:55.09 | greycat | Assuming you hit all 2^32 conceivable address (the real space is smaller), you'd need to scan 49710 per second. |
| 17:55.20 | zellfaze | It's like nmap, but faster and way less throughal |
| 17:55.32 | zellfaze | butchered that spelling. |
| 17:55.41 | zellfaze | thorough |
| 17:56.02 | zellfaze | https://zmap.io/ |
| 17:56.14 | Habbie | closer to 40k if you just take 'real' space, yes |
| 17:56.25 | Habbie | not a relevant difference for the purpose of discussion :) |
| 17:56.32 | f0x1 | ratrace: grub.cfg https://termbin.com/e9yrd blkid https://termbin.com/oodi crypttab https://termbin.com/gs3p fstab https://termbin.com/i2ay |
| 17:57.01 | zellfaze | "With a 10gigE connection and PF_RING, ZMap can scan the IPv4 address space in 5 minutes." |
| 17:57.12 | zellfaze | You can definitely scan over 50k hosts a second. xD |
| 17:57.16 | Habbie | oh yes |
| 17:57.25 | Habbie | but the real treasure is the friends you'll make doing that |
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| 17:58.13 | ratrace | f0x1: can you also please pastebin lvscan |
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| 17:58.39 | f0x1 | ratrace: https://termbin.com/pj8x |
| 17:59.19 | jhutchins_wk | I wonder what kind of bandwidth that takes. |
| 17:59.41 | greycat | All Of It |
| 17:59.45 | zellfaze | ^ |
| 18:00.02 | zellfaze | To do the ipv4 address space in 5 minutes you need 10GB/s |
| 18:00.10 | zellfaze | Gb my bad |
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| 18:02.03 | ratrace | f0x1: no separate /boot? that's with encrypted /boot ? |
| 18:02.15 | ratrace | oh wait, nvm, I see it in fstab |
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| 18:04.56 | ratrace | f0x1: can you chroot into that root and then check: 1) that cryptsetup-initramfs is installed 2) that update-initramfs -u and update-grub both finish with no errors? |
| 18:06.08 | ratrace | f0x1: chroot like this, assuming rootfs is mounted on /mnt: mount -t proc proc /mnt/proc ; mount -B /dev /mnt/dev ; mount -B /dev/pts /mnt/dev/pts ; mount -B /sys /mnt/sys ; mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot ; chroot /mnt |
| 18:08.23 | f0x1 | mount -B is an invalid option in the debian busybox |
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| 18:09.34 | f0x1 | ip |
| 18:09.53 | f0x1 | oops |
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| 18:10.29 | f0x1 | I'll get an arch live iso, usually works nicer for rescue operations :> |
| 18:11.06 | ratrace | yeah you need some quality rescue env there :) |
| 18:11.29 | ratrace | f0x1: ubuntu live cd is also good, has all the tools in teh debian family |
| 18:11.49 | f0x1 | brb, debugging further after dinner |
| 18:12.00 | zellfaze | The food. It calls you. :) |
| 18:12.58 | ratrace | one does not simply walk into initramfs on an empty stomach |
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| 18:16.42 | JordiGH | Hm, when Firefox crashes and sends those reports, can I see what it's sending? |
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| 18:17.40 | JordiGH | I get so many crashes per day. |
| 18:17.55 | JordiGH | I kind of want to go back to Firefox 60 just to get rid of the crashes. |
| 18:18.50 | *** part/#debian agentoak (~agentoak@hestia.kreyhost.net) |
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| 18:19.20 | Furry_Kitty | What kind of crashes? |
| 18:19.22 | ratrace | JordiGH: you shouldn't, there are secvulns that are patched with 68 ; did you start with a fresh new profile as suggested earlier? |
| 18:19.44 | JordiGH | Furry_Kitty: I don't know, you want to know which signal it received? |
| 18:19.49 | ALowther | What is the purpose for the majority of the executables in /bin? When I view the files in /bin and type `which BIN`, every single one that i have tested for provides me a path in /usr/bin. The files aren't symlinks either. Do they just have duplicates? What for? |
| 18:20.02 | JordiGH | ratrace: Why would I do such a thing? If it doesn't work with my current profile it plain doesn't work. |
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| 18:20.16 | ratrace | JordiGH: to isolate the issue |
| 18:20.24 | lunchslut | because it may be orthogonal to firefox itself |
| 18:20.33 | JordiGH | and how exactly am I going to isolate it? My profile has been with me since 2007 or so. |
| 18:20.35 | greycat | ALowther: ls -ld /bin /usr/bin |
| 18:20.39 | ratrace | JordiGH: by eliminating stuff you can determine what exactly is causing crashes, and then you can decide how to fix it |
| 18:20.49 | lunchslut | JordiGH: firefox -ProfileManager, create new profile, try to reproduce |
| 18:20.52 | JordiGH | lunchslut: Firefox shouldn't crash no matter what is in ~/.mozilla |
| 18:21.04 | greycat | JordiGH: BWA ha ha ha ha |
| 18:21.04 | lunchslut | yes but it may be due to your plugins and not firefox itself |
| 18:21.05 | ratrace | except it does |
| 18:21.16 | JordiGH | lunchslut: There are no binaries in my ~/.mozilla |
| 18:21.27 | ratrace | no extensions? |
| 18:21.34 | JordiGH | Plenty of javascript extensions. |
| 18:21.51 | lunchslut | and you know they're not the issue... how? |
| 18:22.02 | JordiGH | Anyway, what is that gonna accomplish? Oh, it's crashing due to my profile. And then what? |
| 18:22.12 | JordiGH | It's not like I know how to repro with my current setup anyway. |
| 18:22.14 | lunchslut | Then its not due to the firefox package |
| 18:22.16 | ratrace | JordiGH: then you can enable one by one of the extensions and see which one bursts |
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| 18:22.37 | JordiGH | ratrace: It's not something I can reliably reproduce. |
| 18:22.50 | JordiGH | lunchslut: It is due to the firefox package. It shouldn't crash on any javascript it executes. |
| 18:23.04 | ratrace | JordiGH: well then good luck. you wanted help but you're actively opposing any effort to fix this yourself. bye. |
| 18:23.08 | JordiGH | Hell, it shouldn't crash if a binary crashes either. |
| 18:23.16 | JordiGH | ratrace: You aren't helping. You're just trying to blame me. |
| 18:23.21 | ratrace | bye. |
| 18:23.23 | greycat | you keep using this word "shouldn't" |
| 18:23.34 | greycat | it would be better to focus on what "is" |
| 18:23.46 | JordiGH | greycat: Well, yeah, software shouldn't crash. So it's a bug. |
| 18:23.59 | JordiGH | Anyway, my question wasn't "whose fault is it?" My question was, how can I see what it's sending Mozilla? |
| 18:24.19 | noln | ALowther, /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin https://wiki.debian.org/UsrMerge |
| 18:25.05 | noln | see link "the case for usr merge" at the bottom |
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| 18:26.19 | Scruloose | I'm sure this isn't Debian-specific, but I have an openvpn-client question I hope someone can help me out with... |
| 18:27.16 | Scruloose | Just installed openvpn on a headless system to use anonymizing PIA vpn, and verified that it's working... |
| 18:28.37 | Scruloose | incoming connections to that system are now failing. (I'm *not* an expert in network routing, for the record) |
| 18:29.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1568] by debhelper |
| 18:29.27 | JordiGH | ratrace: I'm so frustrated because you so misunderstand the problem. I can be browsing for about an hour or so and then a crash happens. I have about 10 extensions. So you want me to try all possible 2^10 possibilities of extensions? That's 1024 hours of inconvenience, assuming I get a crash within an hour each time. |
| 18:29.42 | JordiGH | It's just the dumbest and most useless and most inconvenient way to determinw why Firefox is crashing. |
| 18:30.18 | JordiGH | Assuming the crash is even because of my extensions and not because of some other part of my profile. |
| 18:30.19 | greycat | It's not 2^10 permutations. Most likely it's *one* extension causing the issue, not some combination. |
| 18:30.26 | Scruloose | Looking for solutions, I'm seeing reference to the return packets being routed through the vpn even though the incoming connection is on the local/regular ethernet interface. |
| 18:30.31 | ratrace | JordiGH: but it's the only way. process of elimination. besides "run with a new profile" has been "the way" to fix FF post-udpate crashes for years. |
| 18:30.53 | Scruloose | Does this info here seem accurate and current? https://www.linode.com/community/questions/7381/openvpn-client-connected-to-a-server-while-listening-to-ssh#answer-36662 |
| 18:31.02 | ratrace | JordiGH: and even if you do manage to read what is sent to mozilla, my bet would be a lot of stack traces and state dumps, little hints as to what caused it |
| 18:32.03 | ratrace | infact, sometime in the past few releases, you HAD to start with a new profile, can't remember which was it. maybe even this 60->68 esr? |
| 18:32.04 | jelly | JordiGH: 1024 hours? Fire up a thousand machines in the cloud and run the same browser things! |
| 18:32.32 | JordiGH | greycat: Most likely, but you don't know. Either way, 10 hours of inconvenience, assuming I get a crash within an hour or so each time. |
| 18:32.41 | jelly | selenium is your friend! |
| 18:32.43 | noln | Bisection would take 3/4 steps. Halve the search space each step |
| 18:32.44 | jelly | hides |
| 18:32.46 | JordiGH | ratrace: You ever heard of a debugger and core dumps? |
| 18:33.14 | ratrace | JordiGH: sure, but that takes hours. I've fixed all such crashes so far with a fresh new profile and a few elimination tests. |
| 18:33.19 | JordiGH | noln: It's not a bisection; there's no ordering on the extensions. |
| 18:33.27 | JordiGH | ratrace: Your method also takes hours. |
| 18:33.39 | greycat | JordiGH: do you have a BETTER approach? Then use that. |
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| 18:33.44 | JordiGH | ratrace: I don't know how to make it crash? |
| 18:33.52 | JordiGH | Yeah, I want to know what it's sending to Mozilla. That's a start. |
| 18:34.01 | lunchslut | fault isolation is also a start |
| 18:34.50 | ratrace | JordiGH: sen this? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/Crash_reporting/Understanding_crash_reports |
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| 18:36.28 | noln | JordiGH, it's a bisection on the search space, not on the extensions |
| 18:36.46 | JordiGH | And what is the search space? |
| 18:37.04 | JordiGH | Also, mind you, I have no way of knowing what a good node is. |
| 18:37.09 | lunchslut | all places in which a bug can occcur given your environment |
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| 18:37.12 | JordiGH | The crash might take one hour, or it might take five. |
| 18:37.14 | JordiGH | How would I know? |
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| 18:37.52 | noln | the issue is, you want to help development of a huge app without being prepared in advance |
| 18:37.53 | ALowther | greycat: Ohhhhhh, the entire directory is a symlink? |
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| 18:38.00 | greycat | On new buster installs, yes. |
| 18:38.02 | noln | make a .desktop that starts gdb/gdbserver |
| 18:38.13 | greycat | On upgrades, no, unless you do the usrmerge yourself. |
| 18:38.13 | noln | and use THAT daily |
| 18:38.41 | JordiGH | ratrace: I'm trying to puzzle this out. It doesn't seem to say how to see the crash report myself. |
| 18:39.11 | ALowther | greycat: Does that mean it is unique to Buster? Or that is the decision made by the team and all new distros moving forward will be structured in this way? |
| 18:39.43 | lunchslut | JordiGH: try visiting about:crashes |
| 18:39.46 | lunchslut | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/Crash_reporting |
| 18:39.47 | JordiGH | noln: Yeah, running Firefox constantly under gdb seems like a better approach. At least then I would have a stack trace. |
| 18:39.50 | ratrace | JordiGH: checked about:crashes ? |
| 18:39.59 | ratrace | lunchslut: ah you beat me t oit |
| 18:40.07 | greycat | ALowther: it's new in buster. I would imagine they plan to continue it in future releases, but nothing is set in stone. |
| 18:40.10 | JordiGH | omg, thanks, that's what I was looking for, thanks for finally answering my question. |
| 18:40.31 | lunchslut | you can also find that information by following the breadcrums on the aforementioned "Understanding crash reports" link |
| 18:40.43 | ALowther | greycat: Thanks for the info :) |
| 18:40.52 | JordiGH | Look, here I am: https://crash-stats.mozilla.org/report/index/2f2c0dde-05a9-4b50-ba30-d60a80191107 |
| 18:41.48 | JordiGH | And here: https://crash-stats.mozilla.org/report/index/de5471bc-eb39-42a4-8ff1-7940f0191107 and here: https://crash-stats.mozilla.org/report/index/fa633e8b-16bf-4ed6-abf7-505610191106 |
| 18:42.08 | JordiGH | So, it's always at the same point of the stack. |
| 18:42.26 | JordiGH | Ah, no, one's different. |
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| 18:42.55 | ratrace | JordiGH: still on 10.0 ? |
| 18:43.04 | JordiGH | 10.0 what? |
| 18:43.15 | ratrace | debian 10.0, didn't upgrade to 10.1? |
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| 18:44.07 | JordiGH | I'm not sure Firefox gets the minor version. |
| 18:44.15 | JordiGH | jordi@chloe:~$ cat /etc/debian_version |
| 18:44.15 | JordiGH | 10.1 |
| 18:44.17 | f0x1 | is about to run into initramfs with a filled stomach :P |
| 18:44.33 | greycat | if nothing else, you're on the not-latest kernel |
| 18:45.24 | ratrace | f0x1: OS version in that first crash dump you posted shows the old 10.0 kernel version |
| 18:45.44 | JordiGH | So you think I should reboot? |
| 18:45.49 | karlpinc | Scruloose: The page you cited looks ok. But you want to diagnose the problem. The obvious thing to look at is the routing table when the VPN is running. "ip route show" |
| 18:45.51 | greycat | Linux 4.19.0-5-amd64 |
| 18:46.01 | greycat | there's a -6- now |
| 18:46.07 | ratrace | JordiGH: but uptime says 2 hours... |
| 18:46.24 | greycat | is that system uptime, or firefox uptime? |
| 18:46.32 | JordiGH | jordi@chloe:~$ uptime |
| 18:46.32 | JordiGH | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:46.40 | lunchslut | is anyone else having issues changing input methods in qt based apps on 10.1? i have the same issue on two rather different machines |
| 18:46.41 | JordiGH | Seems more like firefox uptime. |
| 18:46.46 | lunchslut | (using ibus) |
| 18:46.49 | greycat | mouseover says "Length of time the process was running" |
| 18:46.50 | ratrace | oh yeah, good question.... oh definitely reboot that thing. /me bets 5⬠that will fix the crashes :) |
| 18:47.05 | JordiGH | I'll take that bet. You accept Paypal? |
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| 18:47.22 | karlpinc | Scruloose: "ip route show all" wouldn't hurt either. |
| 18:47.26 | ratrace | I don't have paypal :( my company does, I'll have to ask if I can bet 5⬠in their name :) |
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| 18:47.53 | Scruloose | karlpinc: https://paste.debian.net/1115101/ |
| 18:48.04 | JordiGH | Ah, well, brb. (see? wasn't this much better than trying extensions on and off for hours?) |
| 18:48.15 | lunchslut | to be determined |
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| 18:50.24 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Line 2 is going to route a whole-lotta-traffic through the vpn. |
| 18:50.45 | Scruloose | The output with 'all' seems to be exactly the same, btw |
| 18:50.55 | karlpinc | Scruloose: good |
| 18:51.24 | karlpinc | Scruloose: What are you doing to setup the route? (openvpn's --route directive?) And what are you trying to do with your vpn in the first place. |
| 18:52.24 | Scruloose | I'm using PIA's pre-made openvpn conf. I'll paste that too. |
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| 18:53.36 | greycat | For the record, I'm skeptical that rebooting is going to change anything related to firefox. |
| 18:53.38 | JordiGH | Alright, let's start counting off the hours. |
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| 18:54.27 | Scruloose | karlpinc: https://paste.debian.net/1115102/ |
| 18:54.34 | JordiGH | greycat: We could start a pool. |
| 18:55.27 | greycat | If you get another crash, you might also want to look for AppArmor stuff in dmesg or wherever AppArmor logs things. |
| 18:55.44 | ratrace | AppArmor by default has no profiles relating to the desktop |
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| 18:56.00 | Scruloose | karlpinc: And the objective is for traffic originating on the server (eg deluged) to go through the tunnel for anonymity, but to still be able to make connections into the server directly for ssh, deluge thin-client, etc. |
| 18:56.02 | greycat | then you'll find nothing and it'll be quick :) |
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| 18:56.10 | karlpinc | Scruloose: So the remote end is probably pushing configs to your end.... |
| 18:56.13 | ratrace | right... journalctl | grep "AVC apparmor" |
| 18:56.49 | greycat | apparmor="STATUS" operation="profile_load" profile="unconfined" name="libreoffic |
| 18:57.04 | greycat | whoever decided journalctl should do fucking horizontal scrolling by default needs to be slapped |
| 18:57.10 | ratrace | oh libreoffice, yea I forgot about that |
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| 18:57.30 | ratrace | greycat: nobody, that's the pager :) try journalctl --no-pager |
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| 18:58.08 | Scruloose | karlpinc: "pushing configs"? I know I manually unpacked that from a zipfile and put it in /etc/openvpn/client/ and manually enabled openvpn-client in systemctl |
| 18:58.10 | karlpinc | greycat: (Way too much slapping to go around when it comes to systemd. Nobody has a hand that would stand up to the punishment.) |
| 18:58.20 | ratrace | meanwhile, why I think reboot might fix this... if I understnd the crash report correctly, the segfault was in the accessibility library, which usually means hardware probing or interaction |
| 18:58.23 | f0x1 | hmm, update-grub just seems to hang |
| 18:58.30 | greycat | ratrace: even "journalctl | less" works normally. SOMEONE made a conscious decision to have it use less in a horiz-scroll mode. |
| 18:58.36 | karlpinc | Scruloose: The other end of the connection can tell your end to setup things. |
| 18:59.28 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I haven't thought about this stuff in a while.... |
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| 18:59.50 | ratrace | greycat: yup, the distro maintainers :) they determine defaults anyway ;) |
| 19:00.40 | f0x1 | yeah, update-grub is just waiting, not outputting anything (from inside the chroot) |
| 19:00.43 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Huh. That I did not know. I assume I can override their choices with explicit local configs? |
| 19:01.20 | ratrace | f0x1: did you mount the chroot properly with all those /dev /sys /proc facilities? |
| 19:01.26 | f0x1 | I think so |
| 19:01.47 | ratrace | f0x1: and remembered to mount /boot ? |
| 19:02.56 | f0x1 | yeah |
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| 19:03.22 | greycat | ratrace: If I run "journalctl" with no arguments, not part of a pipeline, not redirected... then it automatically runs a process named "pager", which is linked to "less" via alternatives. So far, so good. But this instance does NOT work the same way "pager" does if I run that by itself. Checking the process's env, I see it has LESS=FRSXMK |
| 19:03.56 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I forget. Probably. |
| 19:03.59 | greycat | ratrace: SOMEONE set these options in the environment of "pager" |
| 19:04.03 | f0x1 | ratrace: output of 'mount' inside the chroot: https://termbin.com/fhot |
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| 19:04.51 | ratrace | f0x1: how long did you leave update-grub to run? |
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| 19:05.27 | f0x1 | fairly long |
| 19:05.29 | karlpinc | Scruloose: So you're using a service and have no control over the remote end. Maybe I'll go read the whole page you sent. |
| 19:05.51 | ratrace | f0x1: but update-initramfs -u finished with no errors? did it complain about cryptsetup-initramfs? is that package installed? |
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| 19:06.14 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Yeah, the remote is a paid VPN service, not under my control. |
| 19:06.15 | f0x1 | I had to install cryptsetup-initramfs, and then the update went fine |
| 19:06.31 | f0x1 | update-grub has been running for a minute now, still no output |
| 19:07.10 | ratrace | greycat: lenny probably :) |
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| 19:08.35 | ratrace | f0x1: any io activity? is it perhaps stuck at the os-prober? |
| 19:09.01 | f0x1 | ratrace: I just tried a boot, installing cryptsetup-initramfs fixed it, no grub update needed |
| 19:09.12 | f0x1 | question remains, why didn't the installer just do that for me |
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| 19:10.04 | Scruloose | karlpinc: I found a little more discussion of what looks to be the same issue I have (specifically mentions PIA) here: https://serverfault.com/questions/659955/allowing-ssh-on-a-server-with-an-active-openvpn-client |
| 19:10.14 | ratrace | f0x1: no idea really. with buster, crypsetup-initramfs is now installed separately. I'm not sure how the installer dealt with it before, I'm rarely using it |
| 19:10.45 | ratrace | f0x1: but update-initramfs will complain loudly if there's no cryptsetup-initramfs installed and root seems to be encrypted |
| 19:11.02 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I'm wondering why "y.y.y.y/y should be the subnet of your Linode's public IP address". (Havn't thought it through.) |
| 19:11.14 | f0x1 | anyways, thanks ratrace for helping me debug |
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| 19:11.21 | ratrace | f0x1: np |
| 19:11.43 | f0x1 | now I can get on with my actual project, figuring out how to move my homeserver's RAID setup around |
| 19:11.50 | f0x1 | by doing some safe testing in qemu first |
| 19:12.22 | f0x1 | I want to turn my current 2 disk RAID1 into just 1 normal disk (no raid), while keeping the data |
| 19:12.59 | f0x1 | and then remove one of the hdd's that used to be in the RAID, put an SSD in it's place, and then start a new RAID1 with both my ssd's, keeping the data that was already on the initial ssd |
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| 19:13.24 | f0x1 | from what I've heard, that should be doable while keeping everything online |
| 19:13.30 | ratrace | f0x1: degrade by faultin, detaching, and zeroing-superblock for the disk you want to turn into single device; copy partitions + filesystems over |
| 19:13.59 | ratrace | the above assumes mdadm raid1 |
| 19:14.02 | f0x1 | hmm it's going to be annoying to copy all that data |
| 19:14.05 | f0x1 | yeah it's mdadm |
| 19:14.22 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Seems to me that "y.y.y.y/y" should be "x.x.x.x/32". But that's without really understanding.... |
| 19:14.22 | f0x1 | is it bad to keep the RAID1, but just running with 1 disk, or does that have overhead? |
| 19:14.35 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Yeah, and my situation is not a VPS, it's a machine at home with a couple of port-forwards through my NAT router. The main bit I know I don't understand is whether that "public IP address" would be the server's own non-vpn local address in my case, or the router's WAN-facing public address. |
| 19:14.38 | jelly | f0x1: negligible overhead |
| 19:14.43 | ratrace | f0x1: might be able to speed it up by dd-ing the filesystem itself, but it'll retain the UUID so don't forget to change it |
| 19:15.21 | f0x1 | jelly: ah, that makes part 1 easier |
| 19:15.39 | ratrace | my OCD would scream at permanently running a degraded array..... |
| 19:15.43 | jelly | f0x1: why don't you just fail and remove one device, then add the new device into the existing raid1? |
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| 19:16.32 | Scruloose | karlpinc: By my reading, that comment does in fact say that y.y.y.y/y is simply the subnet to which x.x.x.x belongs |
| 19:16.42 | jelly | ratrace: I keep degraded raid1 most of the time, resyncing to external disk member once a month or so, then disconnecting it again |
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| 19:16.57 | jelly | think offsite backup |
| 19:17.09 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I think it'd be your non-vpn local address. The NATting allready has done all the translation and that's what you "see". |
| 19:17.11 | jelly | (except it's not offsite, just unplugged) |
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| 19:17.33 | ratrace | jelly: yeah the degraded array backup method. DOWN GIRL! down. there, my OCD freaked out. |
| 19:17.46 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Cool. That lines up with my not-very-educated guess ;-) |
| 19:17.51 | karlpinc | Scruloose: The y.y.y.y/y is there in the event that your machine gateways traffic from the internet to your local network. This is unlikely to be the case. |
| 19:17.59 | f0x1 | jelly: they are different RAIDS |
| 19:18.06 | f0x1 | I'll write out what I'm trying to achieve |
| 19:18.20 | greycat | https://sources.debian.org/src/systemd/241-7~deb10u1/src/shared/pager.c/#L128 |
| 19:19.14 | Scruloose | karlpinc: True. If any such gatewaying happens, it should be the NAT router doing it, not this machine. |
| 19:19.19 | karlpinc | Scruloose: So, ""the answer looks "right"". For some value of right. (But my brain has still not caught up and worked through all the details, and I don't have time to do that just now.) |
| 19:19.47 | ratrace | greycat: there's your culprit: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blame/72a68f9d6d4e1caa8ec21f5b223ce2211f010f4b/src/shared/pager.c#L128 |
| 19:20.20 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Heh! Thanks for taking a look! |
| 19:21.31 | f0x1 | jelly, ratrace: https://f.0x52.eu/upload/system-upgrade.txt |
| 19:21.39 | greycat | adds export SYSTEMD_LESS=FRXMK to his env |
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| 19:21.59 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Thing is _all_ traffic originating on the local box will then go through the vpn. Even ssh connections you make to other places, etc. That will make it hard to reach the rest of your network from your local box. |
| 19:22.34 | ratrace | f0x1: bcache for what, HDD? |
| 19:22.42 | f0x1 | yeah the media storage |
| 19:22.44 | karlpinc | Scruloose: So this may not be the answer you _really_ want. |
| 19:23.15 | *** join/#debian zleap (~zleap@unaffiliated/zleap) |
| 19:23.19 | f0x1 | and I'd like to do all this with minimal downtime :> |
| 19:23.23 | ratrace | f0x1: so which RAID you wanted to split? from what I understand, the HDD RAID remains, and you're turning 1 SSD into a RAID1 + bache device with another bigger SSD |
| 19:23.47 | ratrace | f0x1: the only problem is that HDD RAID will need to be rebuild as bcache user, iirc you can't just attach bache to an existing fs |
| 19:24.05 | karlpinc | Scruloose: (I'd also muck about with the openvpn configs so that that "ip rule add from x.x.x.x table 128" is done when openvpn comes up, and undone when it goes down.) |
| 19:24.08 | ratrace | I might be wrong, but from what I know, the fs needs to be built layered atop of bcache |
| 19:24.09 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Ah. I see. So I'll want to figure out how to *also* exclude traffic originating on this box and destined for 192.168.1.x, then |
| 19:24.19 | f0x1 | ratrace: I'm removing one of the HDD's, so the other HDD would be the sole disk in the old RAID |
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| 19:24.27 | f0x1 | that hdd gets swapped for the new ssd |
| 19:24.41 | karlpinc | Scruloose: It might already do that. I noticed 192.168.1.x in the routing table. |
| 19:24.50 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I think. |
| 19:25.01 | ratrace | f0x1: sorry I'm afraid I don't follow |
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| 19:25.22 | karlpinc | Scruloose: But that's for reaching your local network. It won't help when reaching, say, debian's security repo. |
| 19:25.59 | karlpinc | Scruloose: I've not paid attention to torrents in a long time. There may not _be_ an answer. |
| 19:26.38 | karlpinc | Scruloose: You may have to suck it up and understand what you are doing. :) |
| 19:26.47 | f0x1 | ratrace: updated the txt to maybe be more clear |
| 19:26.49 | Scruloose | karlpinc: And the concern there would be if my vpn provider wants to snoop on my connection to say, debian's security repo, I take it? |
| 19:27.33 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Yeah, some 101 reading on IP routing and tunnelling may be in order, it's true. |
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| 19:27.49 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Not really. It's a question of efficiency/cost/reliability and doing it "right". |
| 19:28.20 | f0x1 | oh, it seems there's bcachefs too now, which is the successor to bcache? |
| 19:28.21 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Eventually a strange setup comes back and bites you in an unexpected and usually confusing way. |
| 19:28.29 | f0x1 | but not upstreamed yet rip |
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| 19:28.56 | ratrace | f0x1: but the SSD RAID1 (rootfs+swap) is unrelated to the HDD RAID1 (media), so you're basically taking out one HDD, turning the HDD RAID1 into single disk, and building a fresh new RAID1 from existing 256GB SSD + new 512GB SSD, half of which would run as bacache? |
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| 19:29.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1575] by debhelper |
| 19:29.33 | ratrace | f0x1: the only problem with that is turning single SSD into a raid member, online, that's not doable, you'd have to reboot for the / to change from single ssd to raid member |
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| 19:29.41 | jelly | greycat: because why would it use the normal LESS! |
| 19:29.44 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Do you really want to go through the vpn when connecting to your bank? Maybe you do and maybe you don't but you should at least know what's happening. |
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| 19:30.40 | Scruloose | karlpinc: Ah. Yeah, I've encountered that phenomenon. (I honestly didn't think my setup was strange in this case.) |
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| 19:31.20 | f0x1 | ratrace: yep |
| 19:31.26 | f0x1 | a reboot is fine, just trying to minimize downtime |
| 19:31.55 | jelly | no wait |
| 19:32.16 | jelly | greycat: why would it [journalctl] not use the normal LESS! Because fuck you, that's why |
| 19:32.25 | Scruloose | karlpinc: It's a good point. I mean, anything I do that's as sensitive as banking will a) not be on this machine and b) happens over ssl with certificate verification anyway, so I think with/without the VPN isn't much of an issue? |
| 19:33.02 | karlpinc | Scruloose: Right. There's end-to-end security built-in. |
| 19:33.05 | ratrace | f0x1: doable, I did it more than once. I'm just not aware of an ability to remove mdadm metadata and basically convert a raid1 member into a single disk, without zeroing superblock and removing all metadata, requiring basically a copy-over |
| 19:33.25 | greycat | jelly: I didn't study the code in depth. Something about special handling of Ctrl-C if the -K option is missing. And I suppose someone thought they knew better than the developers of less. |
| 19:33.43 | karlpinc | Scruloose: The Internet is built to not care about the paths the packets take. So you don't care either. Until you do. |
| 19:33.47 | ratrace | f0x1: but again, dd-ing the fs (as opposed to rsyncing it) from mdX to /dev/sdY is faster, and will require changing its UUID with tune2fs |
| 19:34.33 | *** join/#debian dionysus70 (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69) |
| 19:34.39 | Scruloose | karlpinc: ie, until my return packets go disappearing into the ether because of an overbroad routing rule |
| 19:34.44 | f0x1 | ratrace: keeping it as a single-disk ""RAID1"" should be fine too though, right? |
| 19:34.56 | karlpinc | f0x1: That'd be the easy way. |
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| 19:34.59 | ratrace | f0x1: technically yes, it can continue to run just fine as a degraded mirror |
| 19:35.16 | jelly | greycat: I only like opinionated software when it's opinions by debian maintainers |
| 19:35.32 | f0x1 | likes easy ways |
| 19:35.34 | greycat | at least they provided a way to override their override |
| 19:35.47 | karlpinc | ratrace: Can't you even convert to a raid1 that's just a single disk so that it's not even degraded. (Just to be tidy?) |
| 19:35.56 | jelly | echo "$LESS"|wc -c ... 128 |
| 19:36.22 | ratrace | karlpinc: what do you mean "raid1 that's just a single disk"? raid1 requires 2+ members, or else it's degraded |
| 19:36.27 | greycat | mine's just FX. used to be just -X. |
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| 19:36.42 | Scruloose | jelly: but Lennart knows better than everyone about everything, and his preference is The One True Way. |
| 19:37.05 | ratrace | I use vim as pager, so I don't even care about $LESS :) |
| 19:37.17 | ratrace | Scruloose: it's just a (easily changeable) default |
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| 19:37.27 | jelly | and your .viewrc is noone's business |
| 19:37.32 | karlpinc | ratrace: I have it in my head you can have N>0 raid1 members. For instance, so you can start with a single disk and later add more. Of course it's not really raid1, but that keeps it from being degraded. |
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| 19:37.44 | jelly | ratrace: it's a non-default default. |
| 19:38.02 | Scruloose | ratrace: It's true, they did eventually add the option to override their override of your system preference |
| 19:38.03 | jelly | ratrace: it's literally "we know better than you" |
| 19:38.13 | ratrace | karlpinc: technically you can build (Start with) raid1 array with just one disk. you supply "missing" for the other drive (it's a keyword for mdadm) |
| 19:38.22 | ratrace | karlpinc: but it's still a degraded raid1 |
| 19:38.39 | karlpinc | ratrace: It shows as degraded? |
| 19:38.44 | ratrace | jelly: did anyone try to submit a patch and change that default of defaults? did it get shot down? |
| 19:38.48 | ratrace | karlpinc: yes |
| 19:38.56 | karlpinc | ratrace: :-( |
| 19:40.20 | f0x1 | so for then converting the ssd to RAID1 with the new drive, the arch wiki recommends creating a degraded RAID1 (with 'missing') on the new drive, rsyncing all the data, and then adding the old disk to the new RAID1 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Convert_a_single_drive_system_to_RAID |
| 19:40.32 | f0x1 | is that the best way or is there some way to avoid having to rsync over the entire disk |
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| 19:40.54 | ratrace | f0x1: that's pretty much it |
| 19:40.56 | f0x1 | oh and there's LUKS and LVM involved too :< |
| 19:41.00 | ratrace | doesn't matter |
| 19:41.18 | ratrace | oh wait... actually... I don't know how to replace PVs in a LVM |
| 19:41.25 | karlpinc | f0x1: The bestest way is to use lvm. That will allow you to dynamically migrate the data from one physical volume to another without downtime. |
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| 19:42.04 | f0x1 | hmm tell me more |
| 19:42.12 | f0x1 | the ssd already has lvm |
| 19:42.19 | ratrace | f0x1: so I can't say "doesn't matter" for LVM, I wouldn't know. doesn't matter for LUKS that's for sure; it's just another container -- just make sure that at the end of it, from a chroot, all the UUIDs match, crypttab matches, grub.cfg looks up the correct device, fstab UUIDs are correct. |
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| 19:42.44 | *** part/#debian Scruloose (scruloose@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/scruloose) |
| 19:43.55 | karlpinc | f0x1: man pvmove |
| 19:45.18 | karlpinc | f0x1: You also pvchange -x n foo for the physical volume you want to migrate off of so nothing new gets put there. When done you're free to remove the empty pv from the volume groups. At that point you can do "something new" with the old pv. |
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| 19:46.17 | Lope | what modules do I need to load in initramfs besides zfs to get `zpool list` to work? |
| 19:46.23 | Lope | ratrace, ^ |
| 19:46.37 | Lope | it says "no pools available" |
| 19:47.00 | f0x1 | karlpinc: so the pvmove can be done while online, right? |
| 19:47.03 | ratrace | Lope: zfs pulls them in. zunicode,zavl,zcommon,znvpair,spl |
| 19:47.08 | GenTooMan | I find myself in need of tracking a specific USB device behavior in my linux system. Namely I need to find out of it's misbehaving or doing something unexpected. I attempted to try and use wireshark but was an epic failure. |
| 19:47.10 | karlpinc | f0x1: Yes. |
| 19:47.11 | f0x1 | what happens if new data gets added during/after the pvmove? |
| 19:47.16 | f0x1 | or data gets changed |
| 19:47.36 | ratrace | Lope: oh "zpool import" will show you importables. "zpool list" lists only active (imported) pools |
| 19:47.56 | karlpinc | f0x1: The pvchange -x n tells LVM not to utilize blocks on the old pv for any new changes to the disk. |
| 19:48.17 | f0x1 | but you would run that after the pvmove, right? |
| 19:48.26 | karlpinc | f0x1: When done, after removing the pv from the vgs, you pvremove. |
| 19:48.32 | karlpinc | f0x1: No, you'd do it before. |
| 19:49.45 | karlpinc | f0x1: Basically first turn off usage of the old pv, migrate to new pv, undo any vgs that use the old pv, and destroy the old pv. |
| 19:50.03 | Lope | ratrace oh brilliant, will try that. thanks |
| 19:50.29 | Lope | can anyone show me an example of /etc/network/interfaces including both ipv4 and ipv6 staticly set? |
| 19:50.53 | *** join/#debian ali543 (~ali@2.216.47.91) |
| 19:51.03 | karlpinc | f0x1: The nice thing is that the data "just moves". So everything inside of lvm is untouched, the UUIDs of the logical volumes, etc. |
| 19:51.19 | Lope | I've got ipv4 working on my remote server. I tried adding the line "iface eth0 inet6 dhcp" to it but that broke it's ability to boot. |
| 19:51.41 | Lope | but I'd prefer to set the stuff staticly. |
| 19:51.54 | f0x1 | so during the pvmove, where would new/changed data go? |
| 19:52.07 | Lope | actually the DHCP server is probably only running when the recovery console is activated. |
| 19:52.09 | ratrace | Lope: you sure dhcpb6 is available in your network? |
| 19:52.14 | Lope | that might explain it. |
| 19:52.38 | Lope | ratrace, ipv6 worked when I rebooted into the recovery console. I noted the IP's and the routes. |
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| 19:53.02 | ratrace | Lope: how was it set in recovery console? |
| 19:53.02 | Lope | ratrace, so I'm going to try specify them staticly in my interfaces file. I'm a total ipv6 noob. |
| 19:53.13 | Lope | recovery console set it via DHCP |
| 19:53.37 | Lope | but the recovery console only functions due to DHCP being active probably. |
| 19:53.39 | karlpinc | f0x1: As soon as you do pvchange -x n no new sectors on the old pv are allocated. It may be that some are written to. But as the pvmove runs there are fewer and fewer of those sectors. |
| 19:53.52 | ratrace | Lope: https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration#Configuring_the_interface_manually |
| 19:53.53 | Lope | under normal circumstances I reboot and the recovery console does not activate. |
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| 19:54.34 | Lope | ratrace, yeah, seen that, thanks. If I want to add multiple addresses, can I just add multiple address lines? |
| 19:55.21 | ratrace | Lope: I believe so yes, as it now uses iproute in the background |
| 19:55.26 | Lope | oh I see it's in the docs |
| 19:55.28 | ratrace | Lope: remember, just one gateway though |
| 19:55.47 | Lope | yes, but I'll add routes with the up thing. |
| 19:55.56 | Lope | just trying to replicate the recovery console's routes |
| 19:55.57 | *** join/#debian askall (~askall@197.210.227.59) |
| 19:56.04 | Lope | or should I just add a gateway and be done with it? |
| 19:56.22 | Dagger | Lope: how sure are you that your network is even using DHCPv6? |
| 19:56.31 | *** join/#debian Anonim-kun (~Anonim-ku@88.245.66.14) |
| 19:56.39 | Dagger | SLAAC is more common |
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| 19:57.52 | jhutchins_wk | Lope: Generally, let your router route and configure a gateway. |
| 19:57.53 | karlpinc | f0x1: As long as your thinking about this, google for "write amplification" for SSDs. It may be, depending on your ssd, you want leave about 20% of it unallocated to avoid slowdown. (The way to be sure of this is to have a least one partiton and leave entirely unpartitioned space on the drive.) |
| 19:58.05 | karlpinc | /about/up to/ |
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| 19:58.20 | Lope | jhutchins_wk, this is on a server in a datacenter. |
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| 19:58.36 | jhutchins_wk | Lope: Definitely let the router handle it. |
| 19:58.54 | Lope | Dagger, it works in the recovery console, and after I manually added the ip and gateway with ip commands I was able to ping google's ipv6 ip. |
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| 19:59.05 | Lope | so now I just want to implement it in the interfaces file. |
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| 19:59.18 | gladioacuto | hello |
| 19:59.21 | gladioacuto | I have no sound anymore on my laptop after upgrading from stretch to buster |
| 19:59.23 | gladioacuto | any suggestion? how to fix? |
| 19:59.36 | greycat | https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Upgrade_issues |
| 20:00.06 | Dagger | but if the network uses SLAAC then it's almost always simpler to just let SLAAC do its thing |
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| 20:02.54 | gladioacuto | greycat, followed the link you gave me. But sound still does not rescue. Do I have to reboot? |
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| 20:03.08 | Lope | Dagger, I see there's a SLAAC thing in the docs. |
| 20:03.25 | greycat | I have no idea. I don't use pulse audio, or timidy, or a desktop environment. |
| 20:03.31 | Lope | Dagger, but the docs say if you use SLAAC you can't enable ipv6 forwarding otherwise SLAAC gets disabled |
| 20:03.31 | greycat | timidity* |
| 20:03.33 | karlpinc | f0x1: See also "secure erase" https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase (done with hdparm I think) |
| 20:03.51 | Lope | ipv6 forwarding meaning I've got VM's that need ipv6 access |
| 20:03.56 | Lope | sounds pretty important to me. |
| 20:04.05 | Dagger | it only gets disabled if you set accept_ra=1; if you set accept_ra=2 then it'll stay enabled |
| 20:04.09 | greycat | Maybe just restarting pulse audio would be enough. |
| 20:04.35 | Lope | can I set a metric in my /etc/network/interfaces file? |
| 20:04.41 | Lope | for gateway |
| 20:05.12 | Dagger | if you're receiving RAs then just let those set the gateway rather than doing it statically |
| 20:05.19 | ratrace | Lope: can't you bridge? do you have to forward? |
| 20:05.43 | Lope | ratrace, I tend to forward so things only get the access they really need. |
| 20:06.00 | f0x1 | ahh this was probably the issue I ran into earlier with the chroot: "If you are installing GRUB in chroot environment using LVM and the grub-mkconfig hangs indefinitely, see https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB#Device_/dev/xxx_not_initialized_in_udev_database_even_after_waiting_10000000_microseconds " |
| 20:06.03 | Lope | I run VMs I don't necessarily trust. |
| 20:06.11 | Lope | can't have them running loose. |
| 20:06.18 | Lope | I even enable iptables on the bridge. |
| 20:06.21 | ratrace | Lope: you can still firewall them off, even with bridging |
| 20:06.49 | ratrace | f0x1: ah good to know, thanks |
| 20:07.29 | karlpinc | f0x1: That looks interesting. |
| 20:07.47 | Lope | ratrace, when you mention not forwarding, are you referring to ipv6 only? (implying I'll still forward ipv4) ? |
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| 20:09.42 | ratrace | Lope: not specifically no, I mean if forwarding is an issue, you can always set up your VMs to work with bridges |
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| 20:21.20 | carramba_ | hi all, I'm on debian (i386) and I'd like to install debian amd64 on another disk. How to do that? I don't have CD, I don't have pendrive. I've tried debootstrap, but failed |
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| 20:22.22 | Lope | ratrace, I should clarify my question. Is it possible to not forward ipv6 but continue forwarding ipv4? |
| 20:23.59 | f0x1 | ratrace, karlpinc: this is my game plan, feel free to add/change what I missed, https://pad.lamyne.org/0dmtUmSxSMqJUNg-RwRIMw?edit |
| 20:24.11 | ratrace | Lope: yea it boils down to routing table and where the packets are supposed to go |
| 20:24.13 | Dagger | the forwarding settings are separate for v6 and v4 |
| 20:24.35 | greycat | carramba_: I wonder if it would work if you downloaded an amd64 kernel, booted into that, *then* performed the debootstrap |
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| 20:26.11 | carramba_ | greycat: sigh, maybe that's the reason debootstrap failed (no amd64 kernel). I just don't know if I could dd debian iso on the target disk, then install debian on the same disk |
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| 20:26.30 | Lope | ratrace, Dagger: thanks, okay I've attempted to set only the IPv6 that my host tells me that they're giving me, then I enabled SLAAC and will see what it does. |
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| 20:30.15 | Lope | the SLAAC thingy worked, mostly. I only specified the /64 IPv6 that the host tells me they're giving me, and SLAAC added the other /64 IP whatever that is. |
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| 20:30.51 | Lope | the only thing I didn't get automagically was the default gateway. But I added manually now and now I can ping google's ipv6 so I'm going to add that to the interfaces file and hope it works. |
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| 20:31.56 | jhutchins_wk | Anybody dealing with replication between datacenters? |
| 20:31.59 | Dagger | if you're receiving RAs, you should get a default gateway automatically out of the box. if SLAAC is enabled in the RAs then you should get an IP automatically -- you shouldn't need to change anything from the default Linux settings to get any of that |
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| 20:32.39 | Dagger | (if you have v6 forwarding on then you need to set accept_ra=2 but other than that) |
| 20:33.11 | Lope | I've not enabled ipv6 forwarding. |
| 20:33.23 | karlpinc | f0x1: I am not paying attention. FYI, someone did what you're doing the other day, SerajewelKS perhaps? |
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| 20:33.31 | Dagger | then you don't need accept_ra=2 |
| 20:33.45 | Lope | Dagger, I had autoconf 1 and accept_ra 2 |
| 20:34.02 | Dagger | that's okay too! |
| 20:34.03 | Lope | and it did not give me the default gateway? |
| 20:34.31 | f0x1 | karlpinc: I joined the channel today, so no backlog for me |
| 20:34.33 | Dagger | you can examine the RAs you're receiving with `rdisc6` (it's in the ndisc6 package). if you pastebin that then maybe I can tell you more than guesses and generalities |
| 20:34.50 | Lope | Dagger, okay, specifying the ipv6 gateway in the interfaces file worked. Just rebooted, all is well. |
| 20:34.59 | Lope | Is it bad that I've specified the gateway staticly? |
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| 20:35.31 | jhutchins_wk | Lope: It's not uncommon. |
| 20:35.48 | jhutchins_wk | Lope: Your addresses are static, right? |
| 20:35.58 | Dagger | I don't think it's sensible. autoconf will give you the correct setup, rather than fumbling around in the dark trying to replicate it while being unfamiliar with what you're doing |
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| 20:36.47 | Dagger | and if the address ever changes, you won't need to manually discover that and update your config (I bet you don't have v6 monitoring up so you probably won't notice immediately) |
| 20:36.49 | Lope | jhutchins_wk, I've specified the address exactly as per this: "Mixing manual and automatic configuration" https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration |
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| 20:37.21 | karlpinc | f0x1: IIRC (s)he did it themselves and mentioned it here. |
| 20:37.21 | Lope | Dagger, the default IPv6 gateway IP is not hard to replicate? |
| 20:37.48 | Lope | Dagger, I've got SLAAC for the rest, SLAAC didn't provide the gateway for whatever reason. |
| 20:38.05 | Dagger | it's much harder than just letting it get set automatically, especially if it ever changes |
| 20:38.19 | karlpinc | f0x1: There's was a remote server, and they did it without downtime. |
| 20:39.18 | Lope | Dagger, thank you very much for your kind offer to help my friend. but it's late and I've gotta finish some other server stuff and get to bed. I'll send the support a ticket and ask them about it. They can just tell me what they recommend. Will save everyone time. |
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| 20:39.44 | Dagger | if you're getting an address from SLAAC then you should definitely be getting a default route, unless you've changed accept_ra_defrtr |
| 20:40.10 | Lope | Dagger, I definitely didn't change that, never heard of it. |
| 20:40.34 | Lope | Dagger, to be clear I'm not getting everything from SLAAC |
| 20:40.53 | Lope | Dagger, I've specified the address exactly as per this: "Mixing manual and automatic configuration" https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration |
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| 20:41.12 | f0x1 | karlpinc: I think my current plan should work without downtime too |
| 20:41.18 | Lope | where address is the /64 address that the datacenter has told me that they've allocated to me. |
| 20:42.19 | Lope | Dagger, "iface eth0 inet6 dhcp" does not work. But I haven't tried full SLAAC: "iface eth0 inet6 auto" |
| 20:42.21 | Lope | should I try it? |
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| 20:43.17 | Lope | yolo, will try it now. |
| 20:43.31 | trek00 | carramba_: you could try with kexec, it is fairly complicated but if you have time.. https://github.com/fincham/kexec-remote-debian-install |
| 20:43.50 | Dagger | SLAAC works provided the interface is up, you don't need to specify anything in /e/n/in for it |
| 20:44.32 | carramba_ | thanks, right now I'm trying the other approach - add debian iso to grub configuration ,then boot into that to launch installer and tell it to install on the other drive |
| 20:44.48 | Lope | slaac: when I only had ipv4 stuff in e/n/i I had no ipv6 whatsoever. |
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| 20:45.09 | Lope | Giving the auto inet6 thing a go, let's see what it does. |
| 20:45.35 | Dagger | if you're using a modified version of Debian then something might have been disabled (VPS providers are pretty terrible at this sort of thing...) |
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| 20:46.09 | Lope | Dagger, nah, i debootstrapped it fresh. |
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| 20:51.36 | Lope | Dagger, the auto thing didn't give me the IP that the DC has allocated for me, only the other IP which is presumably automatic. and no gateway. |
| 20:51.55 | whislock | Lope: Does it start with fe80? |
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| 20:52.49 | Lope | the automagical one starts with fe80 yes. |
| 20:53.05 | whislock | Yup, that's the link-scope address. Not very useful for internet stuff. |
| 20:53.29 | whislock | At least, not in the context of your interface address. |
| 20:53.34 | Lope | the one assigned by the DC to me which is presumably a block of "public" ipv6 IP's (I'm really talking out my ass here I know very little about IPv6) does not start with fe80. |
| 20:54.02 | whislock | Starts with a 2. |
| 20:54.10 | Lope | yep |
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| 20:55.11 | Dagger | you should basically always have a link-local if the interface is up. that's not coming from SLAAC, it's just automatic |
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| 20:57.48 | Lope | Dagger, oh, I see. |
| 20:58.23 | Lope | well in that case I didn't get anything at all from SLAAC |
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| 21:00.34 | Lope | whislock, dagger: what is ff00::/8 |
| 21:00.44 | Dagger | your host might not even be sending RAs, which would've been fairly obvious from `rdisc6`... |
| 21:00.46 | whislock | IPv6 multicast. |
| 21:00.47 | Lope | the rescue environment had a route for it |
| 21:00.59 | Lope | but my static thing hasn't set it up. |
| 21:01.21 | Lope | Dagger, it seems they're not. |
| 21:01.46 | Lope | whislock, do I need IPv6 multicast? |
| 21:02.07 | whislock | If you don't have a VERY pressing reason to disable certain IPv6 facilities, leave them alone. |
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| 21:02.33 | whislock | Just set up the address and gateway your host gives you. |
| 21:02.59 | Lope | whislock, in the rescue environment I got a ff00::/8 route. But I have to set my ipv6 manually to have an ipv6. When I set it manually I didn't get a ff00::/8 |
| 21:03.03 | Lope | Should I set it? |
| 21:03.15 | whislock | No. |
| 21:03.50 | Lope | okay. So i'll just use the gateway they've given me (as I've done, which is working to ping google's IPv6) and leave it at that. |
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| 21:07.08 | Lope | whislock, what does it mean when I've got a network interface on my LAN that has a IPv6 starting with fd14: ? |
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| 21:11.08 | Lope | okay I DDG'd FD14 prefix and I see it's a "unique local address" by local do they mean LAN? |
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| 21:15.14 | Orxata_ | Hi everybody |
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| 21:16.13 | Dagger | it's a prefix that's globally unique but with no internet connectivity |
| 21:16.40 | mutante | Lope: they mean "within a site" and what "site" means is kind of undefined :p |
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| 21:16.47 | Dagger | openwrt configures a ULA /64 by default (so you can reach the router even when the internet is down); that's probably the most likely source of it |
| 21:16.47 | mutante | "the IPv6 address block fec0::/10 was reserved for site-local addresses,[2] that could be used within a "site" for private IPv6 networks. However, insufficient definition of the term site led to confusion over the governing routing rules. " |
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| 21:17.40 | Habbie | a site can be wider than a LAN, that much is clear |
| 21:17.43 | Habbie | but not much else is clear;) |
| 21:17.57 | mutante | Lope: i think you are supposed to use fe80 now and that was deprecated in 2006 |
| 21:18.06 | Lope | Dagger, whislock: I'm trying to block incoming IPv6 stuff to my server by default and just allow pings and request responses etc for now. |
| 21:18.20 | mutante | see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address#History |
| 21:18.52 | Lope | I've done this so far: ip6tables -P INPUT DROP; ip6tables -A INPUT -m state --state RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT; |
| 21:18.55 | Dagger | ULAs have global scope, so your ULA prefix should be unique worldwide. but the internet won't have routes towards it, so internet connectivity doesn't work on ULAs |
| 21:19.01 | Orxata_ | I have no sound and the audio try indicates "dummy output" |
| 21:19.06 | Lope | So far so good. but allowing echo request and reply isn't working. |
| 21:19.24 | Lope | ip6tables -A INPUT -p icmp --icmp-type echo-reply -j ACCEPT |
| 21:19.37 | Dagger | fe80:: link-local addresses have local scope and can't be routed, so they're not really a replacement for site-local addresses |
| 21:19.49 | Dagger | Lope: permit all ICMPv6 |
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| 21:20.30 | Dagger | `ip6tables -A INPUT -p icmpv6 -j ACCEPT` (not icmp because that's v4) |
| 21:21.11 | Lope | I see |
| 21:21.24 | Lope | Dagger, isn't it a risk of getting hacked if you enable everything? |
| 21:22.31 | Dagger | why would we design ICMPv6 as a hacking risk? |
| 21:22.49 | Lope | how about just basics like echos, time-exceeded, fragmentation-needed? |
| 21:23.40 | Dagger | if you absolutely must, follow RFC 4890 |
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| 21:23.46 | Dagger | I don't think it's worth the effort |
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| 21:27.14 | Lope | Dagger, okay thanks for the info. |
| 21:27.51 | JordiGH | ratrace: Damn, still no crash. >_> |
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| 21:30.11 | ratrace | JordiGH: maybe I should've taken that bet :) |
| 21:31.33 | Lope | ratrace, what are your thoughts on blocking some ICMP? |
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| 21:36.46 | jhutchins_wk | Lope: Prevents several kinds of troubleshooting. |
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| 21:37.44 | somiaj | I find it annoying when I can't do simple pings/traceroutes, and unsure what real security it adds. |
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| 21:43.08 | tyamur | QWindows or linux download and instaler? |
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| 21:53.04 | Lope | ok |
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| 22:04.55 | ratrace | Lope: I block all except minimum required to ping the servers and ipv6 to operate properly |
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| 22:58.28 | martigan | Hey all, Q: If I'm going to disable all ipv6, should I add the disable lines in /etc/sysctl.conf or /etc/sysctl.d/99-sysctl.conf? Does it make a difference? And if so what is it? |
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| 23:00.48 | ratrace | martigan: it's the same file. 99-sysctl.conf is a symlink |
| 23:03.47 | martigan | ratrace, ty. For future reference how can you tell if a file is a symlink? So in this case it would be better to modify the original file as the symlink will point to it right? |
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| 23:05.08 | martigan | 2nd Q: Is using UFW to add firewall rules for a vpn kill switch as good as making them with iptables directly? |
| 23:05.14 | ratrace | it doesn't matter which one you give to your editor, it's the same file. by default at least, on debian. you can see it's a symlink by running ls -l /etc/syctl.d or test it directly file /etc/sysctl.d/99-sysctl.conf |
| 23:05.59 | ratrace | martigan: dunno what a "kill switch" is in this case, but ufw is a wrapper for iptables |
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| 23:10.46 | martigan | I'm trying to add rules to drop all traffic outside of my vpn if my vpn drops. Some tutorials i've found use iptables directly and some use ufw. I get that ufw is a wrapper for iptables, so in that case rules set with ufw will be in ip tables as I understand it. I see what you mean using file to check if it's a symlink. thanks for that. |
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| 23:15.53 | jaakkos | martigan: sounds like you could add a rule that drops all traffic on the physical interface unless it's targeted to the VPN gateway, and always have that rule enabled |
| 23:16.24 | oxek | on https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s03.en.html section 6.3.6.1.3. 'Choosing a network mirror' it talks about httpredir.debian.org which has been replaced by deb.debian.org, right? |
| 23:16.32 | oxek | should the install guide be fixed then? |
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| 23:17.37 | jaakkos | martigan: I've never used ufw so can't answer your question, but I'd be interested in knowing what kind of rules you're planning to use |
| 23:18.38 | karlpinc | oxek: Makes sense to me. You can file a bug report. The install manual says where in it's "about this manual" section. |
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| 23:26.26 | martigan | jaakkos: That's my plan, just drop anything that's not headed for tun0 (vpn if). Iptables looks kinda complicated for rookie like me but ufw seems to do it in just a couple of commands. paste.debian.net/1115167/ |
| 23:27.48 | jaakkos | martigan: well... the iptables rule is about: iptables -I OUTPUT -o ethX ! -d $VPN_GW_ADDRESS -j DROP |
| 23:29.58 | jaakkos | martigan: this would be better: iptables -P OUTPUT DROP; iptables -I OUTPUT -o ethX -d $VPN_GW_ADDRESS -p udp --dport $VPN_PORT -j ACCEPT |
| 23:31.14 | jaakkos | martigan: I don't really know ufw but the rule you pasted looks like it wouldn't let VPN client to communicate with the VPN gateway |
| 23:32.08 | jaakkos | martigan: my example assumes your physical interface was ethX and VPN uses UDP protocol talking to $VPN_GW_ADDRESS:$VPN_PORT |
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| 23:34.44 | martigan | ya i'm tracking. ty. I'm about to try some of these out. I'm using openvpn, you mean it wouldn't allow it to communicate before tun0 was opened by openvpn? |
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| 23:35.14 | jaakkos | openvpn client doesn't use tun0 to communicate anything out of your machine |
| 23:35.32 | jaakkos | tun0 is just for communicating stuff to the OpenVPN client process running on your machine |
| 23:35.50 | jaakkos | the traffic leaving your machine is going to go through a physical interface instead |
| 23:36.36 | jaakkos | though, you will need iptables -I OUTPUT -o tun0 -j ACCEPT too, before the other rule |
| 23:36.44 | jaakkos | otherwise you can't talk to the tunnel either |
| 23:39.09 | jaakkos | martigan: in other words: allowing traffic from/to tun0 isn't going to help getting traffic in/out of your machine |
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| 23:39.40 | jaakkos | martigan: tun0 is just for communicating between OpenVPN client (a program on your computer) and other programs on your computer |
| 23:40.07 | oxek | karlpinc: is sending an email the only way of reporting a bug in debian? |
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| 23:41.33 | martigan | jaakos: I think I get what you're saying. I'm reading through the iptables man page rn to figure what you gave me does then i'm going to give it a try. This is the tut on ufw where I got the idea for ufw. https://thetinhat.com/tutorials/misc/linux-vpn-drop-protection-firewall.html |
| 23:43.01 | martigan | tun0 is the interface that the vpn client makes and is what programs access the internet through right? |
| 23:43.30 | jaakkos | yes, programs send traffic to tun0 from where it goes to OpenVPN client program |
| 23:43.39 | jaakkos | then the client encrypts it and sends it out of some physical interface |
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| 23:44.53 | jaakkos | (in the usual case :) I'm simplifying by saying things like physical interface - depends on how complicated your network setup otherwise is) |
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| 23:46.16 | jaakkos | martigan: so what you want is let programs talk freely to tun0 but only let very specific traffic to go out from the physical interface |
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| 23:48.38 | trek00 | one could enable openvpn user to connect via eth0 and disable all other users on that interface |
| 23:49.52 | ratrace | what about root and apt |
| 23:50.05 | trek00 | apt uses the _apt user to download when root |
| 23:50.22 | ratrace | so _apt would have to be added to that policy |
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| 23:51.09 | trek00 | well, if you need i more fine grained policy you could select a list of users allowed to connect via eth0 and a list of users allowed to connect via tun0 |
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| 23:51.49 | trek00 | this setup is more common with tor, where you would allow only one user to connect via tun0 |
| 23:51.53 | Aebian | hi guys, for some reason my dns server (a debian buster) no longer follows the default gateway 10.0.0.1 and thefore doesn't get any internet. Any idea where I can look to find out why? No route to host is a commen error I see. However other debian devices on the network work just fine |
| 23:52.40 | trek00 | Aebian: what is the output of? /sbin/route -n |
| 23:53.26 | Aebian | uh |
| 23:53.27 | Aebian | 0.0.0.0 10.0.0.2 0.0.0.0 UG 202 0 0 eth0 |
| 23:53.32 | Aebian | that is an issue |
| 23:53.47 | Aebian | 0.0.0.0 should point to 10.0.0.1 |
| 23:53.49 | Aebian | I guess |
| 23:54.14 | trek00 | yes, if 10.0.0.1 is your gw |
| 23:54.23 | ratrace | yeah. how is that set up, dhcp? you have some dhcp server collision in that network? |
| 23:55.04 | Aebian | https://i.imgur.com/FW0kN7P.png |
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| 23:55.19 | Aebian | well 10.0.0.3 is my Microsoft AD box |
| 23:55.25 | Aebian | 10.0.0.2 is the dns server |
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| 23:55.32 | Aebian | and 10.0.0.1 the router (gw) |
| 23:56.08 | jaakkos | martigan: the instructions you pasted suggest first connecting OpenVPN, and only then applying the ufw rules |
| 23:56.14 | trek00 | Aebian: may be you can fix with: ifdown eth0 && ifup eth0 |
| 23:56.23 | jaakkos | martigan: I'm fairly certain ufw does something like "iptables -A INPUT -m conntrack --ctstate RELATED,ESTABLISHED" by default |
| 23:56.28 | Aebian | I already restarted the whole debian box |
| 23:56.44 | Aebian | no change hmmm |
| 23:56.55 | jaakkos | martigan: ... -j ACCEPT, to that rule |
| 23:57.03 | trek00 | Aebian: may be there is some conflicting file inside /etc/network/interfaces.d ? |
| 23:57.09 | jaakkos | martigan: this means among other things that existing connections will not be affected by the firewall rules that will be applied when you run the script |
| 23:57.21 | ratrace | Aebian: also, side note, better bind those eths to their MACs, to avoid bios ordering hiccups |
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| 23:57.45 | jaakkos | martigan: ... because the rules wouldn't allow any other traffic than via tun0. But the existing VPN connection won't be blocked, because you started it *before* you applied the rules |
| 23:57.56 | Aebian | /etc/network/interfaces.d is empty |
| 23:58.03 | ratrace | oh btw... multiple gateways? I don't think that'd work |
| 23:58.12 | Aebian | I only have one |
| 23:58.27 | ratrace | yes but that image you pasted shows three |
| 23:58.32 | Aebian | yeah |
| 23:58.40 | Aebian | different network cards |
| 23:58.42 | ratrace | so no, you can have only one gateway |
| 23:58.47 | ratrace | doesn't matter |
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| 23:58.55 | NetGirl | why's /sbin there? Some say that it's there for reasons not valid anymore. |
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| 23:59.52 | melpy | >_> |
