| 00:00.10 | uxfi | test |
| 00:01.14 | sney | !test |
| 00:01.14 | dpkg | Test failed. |
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| 00:16.54 | MrHatter123 | debian 10, hangs on this again : Processing triggers for dbus (1.12.16-1) ... |
| 00:17.05 | MrHatter123 | during an apt-get upgrade |
| 00:17.41 | MrHatter123 | now it continues, after about a 5 minute hang |
| 00:18.13 | sney | look in dmesg or journalctl for the affected time period, there may be more informative errors in either place |
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| 00:19.01 | MrHatter123 | sney, thx i will check |
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| 00:28.32 | hansh | the man page for crypt (`man crypt`) doesn't state if the return value should be free()'d or not |
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| 00:29.28 | hansh | kindof makes sense if the answer is yes, but the manpage shouldn't leave people to guessing |
| 00:31.07 | hansh | oh, >>>The return value points to static data whose content is overwritten by each call.<<< |
| 00:31.13 | hansh | means it shouldn't be freed |
| 00:32.14 | hansh | (but also means it's thread-unsafe, > âcrypt() â Thread safety â MT-Unsafe race:crypt â ) |
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| 01:35.40 | oxek | anyone know the history why the config file for 'less', located at ~/.less is a binary file? |
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| 01:38.50 | LtL | oxek: it should be, .lesshst: ASCII text |
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| 01:39.30 | oxek | yeah, .lesshst is ascii, but that's the history file, I am talking about the config file, .less |
| 01:40.00 | oxek | .less is a binary file, generated by running lesskey that takes input from a textfile ~/.lesskey |
| 01:40.05 | LtL | oxek: i don't have that? |
| 01:40.15 | oxek | it looks unusually convoluted, and I was wondering about the history of it |
| 01:40.36 | oxek | LtL: you're probably configuring 'less' through exporting environment variables then? |
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| 01:41.17 | LtL | oxek: i haven't done so on purpose, if i am. |
| 01:41.41 | sney | it sounds like it's probably some kind of database format, like what you get in postfix if you postmap certain configs |
| 01:41.51 | nvz | well, I'd imagine that since its a pager and the config can change keybindings, it was thought that performance would be an issue |
| 01:41.54 | sney | possibly for lowmem reasons? |
| 01:42.19 | oxek | so just historically to preserve as little space as possible by keeping it a binary format? |
| 01:42.39 | sney | the man page for less lists 1984 as the first copyright date. that pager is as old as me! so yes, probably. |
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| 01:43.05 | oxek | it doesn't save much space though - there's no compression, I can still see all the options if I directly open the file, except that it has some binary garbage around |
| 01:46.24 | nvz | ,i most |
| 01:46.26 | judd | Package most (text, optional) in buster/amd64: Pager program similar to more and less. Version: 5.0.0a-4; Size: 46.9k; Installed: 119k; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/most |
| 01:46.54 | nvz | seems like the more modern and maintained of the three |
| 01:47.08 | oxek | not very popular though |
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| 01:47.30 | dvs | starts creating "mostest" pager |
| 01:47.50 | nvz | maybe just call it all |
| 01:47.59 | oxek | starts least |
| 01:48.14 | sney | NO, ALL |
| 01:48.45 | oxek | at least 'less' is almost everywhere |
| 01:49.01 | nvz | â |
| 01:49.04 | oxek | but with a curious binary config file... |
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| 01:49.38 | nvz | cat /dev/zero | â |
| 01:49.39 | oxek | and searching online for programs with names that are in english dictionary is a horrible experience... |
| 01:50.21 | nvz | put gnu in front of it |
| 01:51.11 | nvz | its like trying to search for the artist Pink.. and getting Pink Floyd.. just gotta be smarter than what you're workin with :P |
| 01:51.37 | nvz | "gnu less" "pink -floyd" .. etc.. |
| 01:52.12 | nvz | there used to be a linux search.. |
| 01:52.27 | oxek | "gnu less" still doesn't help me find the reason for why .less is a binary file |
| 01:52.32 | somiaj | well I did find a blog that said, "On startup, less reads a configuration file, which on Unix systems is in ~/.less. For some ungodly reason, this is a binary file, and you have to use the lesskey program to generate it." |
| 01:52.55 | sney | maybe there's a comment in the source. |
| 01:54.14 | nvz | https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=017607476515012185699:b_owgx6xyi0 https://www.pcworld.com/article/229774/say_goodbye_to_google_search_portals_for_linux_mac_and_more.html |
| 01:55.09 | nvz | apparently they discontinued the custom search portals.. but that cse link is a similar thing |
| 01:55.21 | nvz | when you search "less" in that you only get relevant results |
| 01:55.52 | mutante | https://duckduckgo.com/?q=less+linux&ia=web |
| 01:56.23 | oxek | somiaj: yeah, I was reading the same blogpost |
| 01:57.06 | LtL | nvz: great tip, many thanks... shame on google |
| 01:57.06 | sney | the comments at the top describe the binary file's format, but don't explicitly state its purpose. it is a database though, essentially. https://salsa.debian.org/debian/less/-/blob/master/lesskey.c |
| 01:57.24 | oxek | in fact, finding documentation on proper formatting of .lesskey is impossible too. Only through testing I found out that I don't need spaces between NAME=VALUE, but cannot use '' |
| 01:57.28 | nvz | LtL: yeah well, they're famous for coming up with crazy ideas then discontinuing them |
| 01:57.31 | somiaj | https://sources.debian.org/src/less/551-2/lesskey.c/ -- yea, I was reading that too. |
| 01:57.56 | somiaj | The part I noticed was byte strings, probably just decided to have lesskey turn options into bytestrings instead off less itself. |
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| 01:58.16 | sney | lesskey.1.gz should probably have that comment block included tbh |
| 01:59.14 | mutante | fun fact: less is more than more. "less was written by a man who was fed up with more's inability to scroll backwards through a file. He turned less into an open source project and over time, various individuals added new features to it. less is massive now. That's why some small embedded systems have more but not less." |
| 01:59.53 | nvz | perhaps there were also ideas to have less be slim as possible and keep all the deps and crap for parsing the config in a seperate program you could build without |
| 02:00.15 | mutante | diet-less |
| 02:00.24 | Xu95 | less lite |
| 02:00.43 | Xu95 | same great taste |
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| 02:00.55 | oxek | isn't 'more' just a cut-down version of 'less' nowadays? I.e. it comes from the same source? |
| 02:01.48 | somiaj | nvz: that is partly what it looks like to me, lesskey is just preporessing the options file, which can be a useful optimization, though most likely not noticiable on modern hardware |
| 02:01.53 | mutante | ""âless is more, but more more than more is, so more is less less, so use more less if you want less more. (...) If less is more than more, most is more than less.â âSlackware Linux Essentials |
| 02:02.52 | nvz | heh |
| 02:03.24 | nvz | more or less.. |
| 02:03.31 | somiaj | oxek: At least in debian they are different source packages, there is less and util-linux (which contains more) |
| 02:04.10 | oxek | I might be wrong then |
| 02:05.19 | nvz | yeah well it could be possible on some systems its swapped out |
| 02:05.34 | nvz | like linking of sh to bash and bash actually being dash |
| 02:05.43 | nvz | and crap like that |
| 02:06.01 | Xu95 | like how vi is actually vim.tiny |
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| 02:09.05 | somiaj | sney: Yea, I often forget there is good information in source code comments (from my understanding is a lot of emacs documentation is reading them) |
| 02:09.35 | oxek | I looked through the sourcecode of lesskey and am not any wiser regarding the reason for binary format |
| 02:10.48 | sney | if it's smaller by any amount, even negligible by modern standards, that may have been enough to justify it in the 80s |
| 02:11.31 | sney | "you want to load the less binary, a whole text file, *and* some custom configuration into memory *at the same time*? what, does ram grow on trees?" |
| 02:11.36 | oxek | on my system, .less is larger than .lesskey |
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| 02:12.02 | oxek | because .less contains plaintext version of .lesskey, but with binary garbage around it |
| 02:12.09 | somiaj | oxek: It is a form of preprocessing, that way all less needs to do is use the bytestrings, as opposed to having to parse and intrupit a config file. |
| 02:12.37 | somiaj | but the processor that reads the options just needs to import the bytestring, it doesn't need to do any processing on it |
| 02:12.45 | somiaj | s/prcessor/process/ |
| 02:13.02 | somiaj | so that is a speed gain each and every time less is run |
| 02:14.17 | oxek | interesting. Doubt it matters much anymore. |
| 02:14.49 | oxek | just struck me as odd that it has a binary config file, unlike most of other software from unix that I know |
| 02:15.08 | nvz | well the location of it struck me as odd.. and instantly I knew it had to be a legacy thing |
| 02:15.10 | oxek | but I guess the real config file is .lesskey then, and .less is just a middleman |
| 02:15.17 | somiaj | yea, most likely not noticeable on mondern hardware, but still an optimization |
| 02:15.28 | nvz | cause they've moved away from that just having crap in ~/ now.. you have ~/.config/ and ~/.cache/ and such |
| 02:15.52 | nvz | if it were any bit modern, it'd probably be ~/.config/less |
| 02:16.04 | nvz | to comply with modern standards efforts |
| 02:16.06 | oxek | nvz: I still have so many things in ~/ as opposed to ~/.config/. wget, vim, ... |
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| 02:16.48 | somiaj | yea, anything that isn't part of the desktop is going to keep their tranditioanl config files |
| 02:17.05 | nvz | fair enough I suppose |
| 02:17.21 | oxek | tmux recently added ~/.config/tmux/tmux.conf as a default location for config file |
| 02:17.34 | oxek | so times are changing for some software |
| 02:18.07 | nvz | I do think standardization is going to be the large focus of the linux community in the near future.. even those against it are gonna have to start coming around |
| 02:18.37 | somiaj | oxek: though I consider tmux 'modern', I would be surprised if screen would to do that |
| 02:19.09 | nvz | things are just getting too complicated anymore to not have some interoperability and there are too many corporations and such sitting on boards and pushing things in that direction.. because companies need to know they can rely on a lil more consistency to get into things |
| 02:19.48 | oxek | good documentation > consistency |
| 02:20.33 | nvz | not in the desktop market.. where you got entirely different systems at work that are layers upon layers of incompatible stuff |
| 02:20.35 | oxek | I don't like having to run strace just to find out the location of configs because it's not documented anywhere... |
| 02:20.46 | nvz | yeah.. that is annoying |
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| 03:08.00 | kats99 | I want to know if I'm using Nvidia. When I run optirun glxinfo it spits out a bunch of numbers and OpenGL version string: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 390.132 |
| 03:08.20 | kats99 | OpenGL shading language version string: 4.60 NVIDIA |
| 03:08.57 | kats99 | But when I open nvidia-settings it says you do not appear to be using nvidia x driver |
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| 03:15.01 | kats99 | this is the output of inxi -G https://paste.debian.net/1158033/ |
| 03:15.05 | sney | kats99: maybe nvidia-settings doesn't like the nvidia legacy (390) driver. your other output indicates you are using it |
| 03:15.34 | sney | ah, or it can't see it because of optimus |
| 03:16.21 | kats99 | oh ok..so I am using it |
| 03:16.46 | sney | yes |
| 03:18.06 | sney | the man page for nvidia-settings doesn't indicate any way to specify a gpu, so it probably just checks the primary, sees intel, and gives up |
| 03:20.15 | kats99 | it's not like heavy programs like ffplay on 4K see the primary, intel and use it to 100% instead of using nvidia, is it? |
| 03:22.01 | sney | I don't know for sure, but it's my understanding that if optimus is configured right, it'll use the nvidia gpu for the heavy lifting |
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| 05:22.47 | giantmidget | Hey lads - not a specificly OS-related question but whatever: the hard drive on which my debian installation is located is almost full. I keep pretty much all my files on another disk, but my installation disk is small so it's been filled up with packages and programs I've installed. Is there a way to specify an alternate install directory when installing packages and/or software not from debian repos? And is there a way to |
| 05:22.48 | giantmidget | move some existing packages to this other drive? |
| 05:24.34 | sney | not really, because the fhs means packages install stuff to /bin /etc /usr /var and so on |
| 05:24.48 | sney | how small is the root partition? |
| 05:25.25 | giantmidget | 80GB |
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| 05:26.25 | sney | that should be more than big enough. maybe you have some data in /var that you didn't account for when segregating files to a different volume? |
| 05:26.36 | giantmidget | It's also encrypted, so I assume just dd'ing it might not be so easy |
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| 05:28.32 | giantmidget | sney /var is at 9.5GB |
| 05:29.07 | giantmidget | 7GB of which are in /var/log |
| 05:30.20 | sney | for reference, / on this system that has survived at least 3 full debian versions and a lot of me screwing around, only has 47GB used. |
| 05:30.54 | sney | huge logs mean something is broken. find your big log, find what owns it, you'll find the solution soon |
| 05:32.22 | giantmidget | sney it's the Xorg logs... |
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