| 00:00.00 | themill | oxek: two of them are not a ttf file but a symlink to ../../../fonts/truetype/liberation/LiberationSans-Regular.ttf |
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| 00:02.54 | themill | oxek: one of them is actually a different font (Droid Sans) pretending to be arial.ttf |
| 00:03.36 | themill | oxek: so yes, you understand the policy and a non-free font like arial.ttf can't be in Debian main... but so do the maintainers of these packages :) |
| 00:04.24 | oxek | all is fine then, and it's a bit annoying they use the arial font filename (that then links to a different font or is in actuality a different font) |
| 00:04.51 | oxek | how did you find out that the 3rd was pretending to be a different font? |
| 00:04.53 | yanmaani | business idea: automated clean-room reverse-engineering fonts |
| 00:05.14 | yanmaani | render arial to bitmap surface, vectorize to ttf, adjust automatically as needed, save |
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| 00:31.26 | themill | oxek: I looked at the font file directly: fc-scan ./kodi-data_2%3a17.6+dfsg1-4_all/usr/share/kodi/media/Fonts/arial.ttf |
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| 00:39.05 | oxek | themill: thanks, that's a nice new tool for me to learn about |
| 00:39.20 | themill | :) |
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| 01:04.12 | BlueMatt | bzed: any plans to do a gpsd version bump? there's several things in .20 that (upstream claims) are fixed |
| 01:04.35 | BlueMatt | eg https://gitlab.com/gpsd/gpsd/-/issues/84 |
| 01:09.22 | somiaj | BlueMatt: debian stable doesn't get version bumps, only targeted fixes for security issues, and some serious bugs. |
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| 01:09.26 | dvs | ,v gpsd |
| 01:09.27 | judd | Package: gpsd on amd64 -- jessie: 3.11-3; jessie-security: 3.11-3+deb8u1; stretch: 3.16-4; stretch-backports: 3.17-7~bpo9+1; buster: 3.17-7; buster-backports: 3.20-12~bpo10+1; bullseye: 3.20-12; sid: 3.20-12 |
| 01:09.46 | somiaj | but in this case appears you can get the version from buster-backports. |
| 01:09.57 | BlueMatt | somiaj: yes, talking about backports/testing. |
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| 01:15.33 | somiaj | BlueMatt: backports are kinda hit/miss depending on the package, testing/unstable questions should be asked in #debian-next on irc.oftc.net |
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| 01:17.41 | BlueMatt | somiaj: eh, I'll let the maintainer who i pinged decide what he wants to do :) |
| 01:19.10 | somiaj | I don't see why you pinged the matainer, first it is preferable to just file a bug report, and second, 3.20 is already avaiable. |
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| 01:20.09 | BlueMatt | there is a bug open. the question is purely "do you feel like bumping soonish". he can respond with a "no" if he likes. |
| 01:20.12 | BlueMatt | just a question |
| 01:20.40 | somiaj | BlueMatt: what do you mean by bumping? The 3.20 version is already in buster-backports and testing? What else do you need? |
| 01:21.24 | BlueMatt | I asked about 3.21 |
| 01:22.28 | somiaj | Okay that is why I was confused because you said .20 in your original question here. |
| 01:22.53 | somiaj | or I thought you were saying .20 was fixed, not the version you needed upgraded... |
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| 01:23.28 | BlueMatt | ah, fair. no, .20 is broken on a few things |
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| 01:24.56 | somiaj | yea, I didn't see that bot you and that bug report seem to suggest 3.20 was the fixed version (At least for that issue) |
| 01:25.35 | somiaj | anyways, wish list bugs are the standard way to ask for a new upstream version in sid. backports as I mentioned are a little more hit/miss. |
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| 01:32.58 | sponix | BlueMatt: if you manage to put in a request for it to hit Sid. I can help you do the backport of it from there if it doesn't have too many deps |
| 01:34.06 | sponix | somiaj: someone answered my prayer for qemu in backports btw. I can now run the latest Mac OS X for amusement |
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| 01:35.33 | somiaj | sponix: yea, noticed 5.0 was there eariler today helping someone else. |
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| 02:04.33 | tomnz888 | Hi, everybody, I set iptables TRACE log on table raw, but got nothing on buster. |
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| 02:24.15 | tomnz888 | I had run these commands: modprobe nf_log_ipv4 |
| 02:24.15 | tomnz888 | sysctl net.netfilter.nf_log.2=nf_log_ipv4 |
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| 02:25.31 | tomnz888 | I asked a question here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/63791460/debian-buster-10-iptables-raw-trace-no-logs |
| 02:25.41 | tomnz888 | Please help, thank you very much. |
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| 03:10.24 | somiaj | tomnz888: buster is using nftables by default (iptables is just a wrapper), could that be the issue? |
| 03:12.45 | tomnz888 | I think maybe that reason, but I don't know how to confirm it yet. |
| 03:13.04 | somiaj | there are ways to go back to iptables, though I think that is more an XY problem and not your actual issue. |
| 03:13.20 | somiaj | and figuring out how to do it in nftables is preferable. |
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| 03:15.05 | tomnz888 | Before I have filter log in TRACE, after I run modprobe && sysctl, I could have filter and nat TRACE log. After a dist-upgrade to 4.19.0-10, then i got nothing. |
| 03:15.09 | somiaj | What exactly are you trying to do? Is something not working right and you need better logs, or you just want more detailed info about what packets are flowing trhough your firewall -- I'll see if my googlefu can help |
| 03:15.16 | tomnz888 | Yeah, I agree with you. |
| 03:16.08 | tomnz888 | There's something wrong with my iptables rules, I want to have a debug on it. I'm not that master on iptables. |
| 03:17.17 | somiaj | https://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Ruleset_debug/tracing |
| 03:17.23 | somiaj | says you can just run 'nft monitor trace' |
| 03:18.17 | somiaj | I don't really know how to use nftables, so setting nftrace set 1 I'm not sure the best way |
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| 03:19.58 | tomnz888 | Thank you, I will give it a try. |
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| 03:20.53 | tomnz888 | xtables-monitor -t can show the package flow, but it's not that clear compared to TRACE log. |
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| 03:58.18 | KNERD | On Stretch, I was ablle to install GNOME Web which was included in gnome-core. I am not seeing GNOME Web anywhere in Buster. Only thing I am finding is to install is from snap store. What's going on with it? |
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| 04:01.25 | jmcnaught | KNERD: I think you're looking for the epiphany-browser package |
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| 04:06.31 | KNERD | jmcnaught: Yes that is it. Thanks a bunch. Strange Debian has not changed the name yet |
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| 04:29.08 | tomnz888 | somiaj, thank you very much, I could get the TRACE log from 'nft monitor trace'. |
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| 04:34.23 | somiaj | tomnz888: nice, glad my google-fu was usefl |
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| 04:38.10 | tomnz888 | thumb up. |
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| 06:13.00 | hegemoOn | hello there, i have a few tc commands to apply on my main network interface |
| 06:13.15 | hegemoOn | what would be the best way to make them persistent over reboot ? |
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| 06:13.46 | hegemoOn | (im not using NetworkManager |
| 06:13.48 | hegemoOn | ) |
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| 06:18.16 | petn-randall | hegemoOn: You could put them in a script and call it via the "up" parameter, if you're using ifupdown. |
| 06:21.38 | hegemoOn | i guess this is what it is using at startup |
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| 06:24.36 | petn-randall | hegemoOn: /etc/network/interfaces is what you want to edit, and `man interfaces` is the man page to it. |
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| 06:25.00 | petn-randall | Check out the section "IFACE OPTIONS". |
| 06:25.58 | hegemoOn | ok |
| 06:26.00 | hegemoOn | lmc |
| 06:28.30 | hegemoOn | or may be i can add my shellscript to /etc/network/if-up.d/ |
| 06:28.37 | hegemoOn | so that it is run after bringing up the interface |
| 06:28.47 | hegemoOn | (i have 3 tc commands and on iptable) |
| 06:29.04 | hegemoOn | s/on/one/; so i guess it's the best way |
| 06:30.10 | petn-randall | hegemoOn: scripts in /etc/network/if-up.d/ are run on every interface, not only that specific one. |
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| 06:35.47 | hegemoOn | yes but i can filter |
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| 06:38.27 | petn-randall | That's true. |
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| 06:49.24 | rabbitear_g | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b-FyvUJsFE |
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| 06:52.31 | petn-randall | rabbitear_g: Wrong channel? |
| 06:54.08 | petn-randall | rabbitear_g: I'm sure the fine folks in #debian-offtopic will enjoy that track. |
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| 07:10.46 | rabbitear_g | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN22hco--TE |
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| 07:13.32 | petn-randall | rabbitear_g: Please stop posting offtopic videos in this channel. Use #debian-offtopic instead. |
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| 07:17.34 | thms0 | Nice to see people who helped me 15 years ago still helping people |
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| 07:22.20 | hegemoOn | +1 |
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| 07:32.44 | hegemoOn | if my script is run after interface activation, if it contains some echo "foobar" |
| 07:32.58 | hegemoOn | in which logfile am i supposed to see "foobar" ? |
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| 07:33.27 | somiaj | hegemoOn: don't quite follow, do you have a post-up rule in /etc/network/interfaces? |
| 07:33.35 | hegemoOn | no |
| 07:33.50 | somiaj | hegemoOn: so what does it mean for your script to be run after interface activation? |
| 07:33.52 | hegemoOn | the script is in /etc/network/if-up.d/ |
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| 07:35.05 | somiaj | it is the networking.service that runs ifup during boot, so systemd will capcature it, you might see it in systemctl status networking, or might need journalctl |
| 07:35.42 | hegemoOn | should it be +x ? |
| 07:35.54 | hegemoOn | (sorry for dumb question) |
| 07:36.21 | somiaj | Not sure, I've never used the hooks in there. |
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| 07:38.20 | somiaj | hegemoOn: looks like yes, man interfaces says the scripts are run by 'run-parts(8)', man run-parts says "run-parts runs all the executable files named within constraints described below", so +x is needed |
| 07:38.38 | jelly | ,v znc |
| 07:38.39 | judd | Package: znc on amd64 -- jessie: 1.4-2; jessie-security: 1.4-2+deb8u2; stretch: 1.6.5-1+deb9u2; stretch-security: 1.6.5-1+deb9u2; stretch-backports: 1.7.2-3~bpo9+1; buster: 1.7.2-3; buster-backports: 1.8.1-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 1.8.1-1; sid: 1.8.2-1 |
| 07:38.43 | hegemoOn | sound logical |
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| 07:47.07 | petn-randall | thms0: Do you mean greycat? He's been here forever. |
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| 07:52.56 | n4dir | then the fable from the debian wiki must have him in mind. |
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| 08:32.51 | nvz | heh.. what? |
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| 08:33.36 | nvz | ah, I see.. |
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| 08:43.39 | rabbitear_g | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ5_qFXqc_c |
| 08:44.15 | nvz | ECHAN |
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| 08:49.58 | jelly | !ChanServ++ |
| 08:50.05 | jelly | !karma ChanServ |
| 08:50.05 | dpkg | chanserv has karma of 1 |
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| 09:03.27 | nobyk | Anyone here that prefers xanmod? |
| 09:03.42 | ratrace | !anyone |
| 09:03.42 | dpkg | Please do not ask if anyone can help you, knows 'something' or uses 'some_program'. Instead, ask your real question. (If the real question _was_ "does anyone use 'some_program'?" ask me about <popcon> instead.) See <ask> <ask to ask> <polls> <search> <sicco> <smart questions>. |
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| 09:04.26 | nvz | never even heard of it before now |
| 09:04.52 | nvz | and can't imagine why I'd want someone else maintaining a suped up kernel for me.. |
| 09:06.15 | nvz | granted the kernels are getting a bit beefy, but its still rather trivial to make your own |
| 09:06.24 | jelly | nobyk, what is xanmod? |
| 09:06.36 | nvz | its a RT linux kernel distribution |
| 09:07.25 | nvz | sounds like a chop shop for the kernel where you can go get yourself a 6sec kernel instead of your grandma's kernel from your distro :P |
| 09:07.37 | jelly | much different from debian's rt flavors? |
| 09:07.41 | nvz | dpkg, xanmod? |
| 09:07.42 | dpkg | nvz: KCI error, or a problem with the Keyboard-Chair Interface. |
| 09:08.13 | jelly | ,v linux-image-rt-amd64 |
| 09:08.14 | judd | Package: linux-image-rt-amd64 on amd64 -- stretch-security: 4.9+80+deb9u6; stretch: 4.9+80+deb9u11; stretch-backports: 4.19+105+deb10u4~bpo9+1; buster: 4.19+105+deb10u5; buster-backports: 5.6.14-2~bpo10+1 |
| 09:08.20 | jelly | ,i linux-image-rt-amd64 |
| 09:08.22 | judd | Package linux-image-rt-amd64 (kernel, optional) in buster/amd64: Linux for 64-bit PCs (meta-package), PREEMPT_RT. Version: 4.19+105+deb10u5; Size: 8.0k; Installed: 17k |
| 09:08.22 | nvz | dpkg xanmod is <reply>XanMod is a general-purpose Linux kernel distribution with custom settings and new features. Built to provide a stable, responsive and smooth desktop experience. https://xanmod.org/ |
| 09:08.24 | dpkg | okay, nvz |
| 09:08.35 | ratrace | I play games on regular debian kernel. xanmod is placebo |
| 09:08.55 | nvz | it would seem that RT kernels arent their only thing.. they just apparently are for whatever reason distributing custom kernels |
| 09:09.09 | nvz | I don't get it frankly.. heh |
| 09:09.49 | nobyk | I was told it might be better for laptops in terms of battery life |
| 09:10.04 | jelly | this ck guy used to make kernel patches that had a noticeable difference in apparent responsiveness and latency |
| 09:10.22 | nvz | their project is hosted on SF it seems.. nuff said :P |
| 09:10.24 | jelly | but that was a while ago, and I have a faster computer now |
| 09:11.20 | nvz | sounds like its more geared toward people who have SNS but are too dumb/lazy to make their own kernel |
| 09:11.54 | jelly | I see they carry some of CK's patches (and probably that CK still makes them) |
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| 09:16.22 | ratrace | non-mainstream and "alt" software used to be interesting 10 years ago. these days the software (and demands of it) is so much more complex, security so much more of a problem, thatn I wouldn't dare using anything but well tested and widely used, y'know where the actual "Many eyes" are. |
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| 09:22.50 | jelly | we shave computers that are order or two more powerful than 10 years ago, yet still horribly unresponsive at times |
| 09:22.57 | jelly | s/shave/have/ |
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| 09:49.15 | ratrace | jelly: that's the paradox of it. we have fastre computers and then developers come up with silly notions like "developer time costs more than cpu time", so they use abominations like Electron and mega frameworks that bloat up and slow down everything. |
| 09:52.50 | jelly | ratrace, it's not THEIR cpu time after all |
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| 09:53.14 | jelly | I don't mind cpu time really; I mind my time waiting for an app or laggy interfaces. |
| 09:55.03 | ratrace | but that IS cpu time, that lag |
| 09:55.18 | ratrace | the lag exists because cpu has no TIME to process all the things that want processing |
| 09:55.53 | ratrace | because the gnome javascript interface fires 1000 triggers on every mouse move, or some other insanity like that |
| 10:04.34 | jelly | honestly gnome has always been lax w/ resources |
| 10:04.42 | jelly | even KDE is a lot better |
| 10:04.49 | Ede|Popede | ratrace: then these developers are just overpaid :P |
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| 10:07.00 | jelly | nobyk, it's quite possible -- Try It And See |
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| 10:08.02 | jelly | I'd expect a NOHZ kernel to save more power than a RT fixed 500Hz tick kernel but who knows |
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| 10:12.11 | ueb | Hello |
| 10:12.41 | ueb | how can I setup logrotate for Tomcat on Debian? |
| 10:12.51 | ratrace | jelly: that makes sense, yes |
| 10:13.24 | ratrace | ueb: if it doesn't already by itself, then you need to create a config file for its logs under /etc/logrotate.d/ |
| 10:14.01 | ratrace | (and install the logrotate package, but I think that's already default on base installations) |
| 10:14.11 | ueb | it's doing logrotation, but I see files from July.. |
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| 10:14.46 | ratrace | ueb: so check the config and alter it if needed |
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| 10:15.18 | ueb | rotate 52 means 52 days ? |
| 10:16.32 | ratrace | it's number of log files to keep, I don't know if 'daily' is default. check the logrotate.conf(8) manpage |
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| 10:17.25 | jelly | 52 sounds more like a weekly to me |
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| 10:23.48 | ueb | jelly weekly rotate 52 |
| 10:24.32 | ueb | here is the full config https://pastebin.com/VmQtEyns |
| 10:25.02 | ueb | it seems that it's rotating only the file catalina.out |
| 10:25.38 | ueb | should I replicate this for each file I need to rotate? |
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| 10:37.20 | ueb | localhost_access_log files are never deleted |
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| 11:32.41 | Mava42 | hey folks, looking forward to install netplan to monitor my server. is there something else handy tool for monitorin I should be aware of in addition to that? |
| 11:33.31 | ratrace | Mava42: netplan? monitor? netplan is Ubuntu's network config framework. is there an other netplan? |
| 11:33.44 | Mava42 | my bad |
| 11:33.58 | Mava42 | netdata i mean =D |
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| 11:35.05 | Mava42 | you know when you are typing somethign too fast and you notice the coffee cup at the table and start to think of how delicious it is |
| 11:36.17 | ratrace | I prefer Munin. Mostly because I've been using it long before all these fancy new monitoring web apps and services appeared, and it has served me well. Ain't broken, I won't fix it :) |
| 11:36.33 | eventhorizon5 | Mava42: I use netdata also on my server. You could try setting up 'sar' which is very helpful for detailed historical reports |
| 11:37.04 | eventhorizon5 | Mava42: the command is in the sysstat package |
| 11:37.47 | thms0 | I would like to use Openssl 1.0.1 (Jessie) with PHP 5.3 (Squeeze). I installed libssl, openssl but phpinfo() still use 0.9.8o. Is my only option to recompile php ? |
| 11:37.50 | Mava42 | ratrace: thanks for the munin tip! I really would have missed that without you |
| 11:38.16 | Mava42 | eventhorizon5: thanks for that tip as well, definitely gonna take a look |
| 11:38.36 | ratrace | thms0: pretty much. I'm sure you're ware that 5.3 is EOL and no longer patched for security |
| 11:38.42 | ratrace | *aware |
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| 13:17.29 | *** topic/#debian is Current Debian release is buster, 10.5 point release /msg dpkg 10.5; /msg dpkg buster; /msg dpkg stretch->buster; /msg dpkg apt suite changed | Stretch has limited LTS support: /msg dpkg stretch-lts ; /msg dpkg 9.13 | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing/unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net | chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog |
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| 13:33.45 | neilthereildeil | hey guys |
| 13:34.18 | neilthereildeil | how can i install mongodb on Debian? |
| 13:34.23 | neilthereildeil | i dont see a package or a wiki page |
| 13:34.33 | ratrace | it's been kicked out due to license |
| 13:35.11 | neilthereildeil | hmm |
| 13:35.18 | neilthereildeil | i need it for my app |
| 13:35.21 | neilthereildeil | how else can i get it? |
| 13:35.29 | neilthereildeil | *in a supported manner |
| 13:36.14 | CyberManifest | !mongodb |
| 13:36.14 | dpkg | mongodb was removed after stretch; see https://bugs.debian.org/916107 and https://bugs.debian.org/915537 for details. |
| 13:36.23 | ratrace | there is no supported manner on debian, if the package is removed |
| 13:36.39 | neilthereildeil | ok, so i am following the instructions on the mongodb website |
| 13:36.46 | neilthereildeil | i added their repo |
| 13:36.58 | CyberManifest | ratrace: that included flatpacks and snaps ? |
| 13:37.00 | neilthereildeil | but im getting errors with apt-get update |
| 13:37.08 | neilthereildeil | about the key being invalid |
| 13:37.17 | ratrace | flatpaks and snaps are not supported by the Debian project |
| 13:37.40 | ratrace | meanwhile, while there is a snap of mongodb, it's not official, so caveat emptor. |
| 13:37.42 | CyberManifest | ratrace: they're shunned and excommunicated ? |
| 13:38.12 | ratrace | CyberManifest: neither . the nature of containerized apps is that no distro can support any. |
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| 13:38.41 | ratrace | note the difference between supporting `snapd` the daemon, which is a bit limited on Debian, but working, and supporting random snap |
| 13:38.43 | neilthereildeil | heres the error im getting: https://paste.debian.net/1163310/ |
| 13:38.49 | CyberManifest | ratrace: doesn't Mint support flatpacks ? |
| 13:38.56 | ratrace | CyberManifest: you'll have to ask Mint |
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| 13:39.38 | CyberManifest | ratrace: well yeah it's contrary to your claim that "no distro can support any" |
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| 13:40.15 | ratrace | it's not. the nature of flatpaks and snaps STORE is such that it's completely outside of purview of distros |
| 13:40.43 | ratrace | again, distros can support snapd (and whatever daemon is for flaptak), in that it runs and can fetch stuff from the store, but that's about it. |
| 13:41.27 | CyberManifest | neilthereildeil: did you man apt-secure? |
| 13:41.40 | CyberManifest | !man apt-secure |
| 13:41.40 | dpkg | man apt-secure is probably at http://manpages.debian.org/apt-secure where you can view many Debian man pages. Ask me about <docs> <dmp> <grounding> <search>. |
| 13:41.41 | ratrace | I'm making this distinction because it is VERY important to understand that snaps and flatpaks are third party applications with gods know what level of QA and audit. there already HAVE been malware in snaps. |
| 13:42.18 | CyberManifest | ratrace: flatpacks isn't snapd though |
| 13:42.20 | neilthereildeil | no. is it just "apt-secure update"? |
| 13:42.47 | ratrace | CyberManifest: it's the same concept. anyone can create and upload a flatpak to the hub, or am I missing something? |
| 13:43.23 | CyberManifest | ratrace: and this can't happen with Any Apps? |
| 13:43.32 | ratrace | CyberManifest: on flatpak and snap store? yes. |
| 13:43.48 | CyberManifest | even debian packages |
| 13:44.09 | ratrace | tehcnically yes, but it's very unlikely |
| 13:45.06 | CyberManifest | ratrace: while this isn't Debian: https://github.com/RPi-Distro/repo/issues/197 |
| 13:45.51 | ratrace | correct, it isn't debian. |
| 13:45.58 | CyberManifest | ratrace: well it's the same on debian |
| 13:46.12 | ratrace | what is? malware in packages? |
| 13:46.36 | CyberManifest | ratrace: don't know, but at the least a bug |
| 13:47.10 | ratrace | there's many bugs. but so far none of them is at the level of malware that happened with snaps. |
| 13:47.12 | CyberManifest | ratrace: I mean screenfetch is just a shell script so it could potentially be used as malware |
| 13:47.39 | CyberManifest | ratrace: FileZilla? |
| 13:48.05 | ratrace | what? |
| 13:48.09 | CyberManifest | malware |
| 13:48.15 | ratrace | what are you talking about |
| 13:48.27 | CyberManifest | FileZilla was known to ship with malware |
| 13:48.32 | ratrace | on debian? |
| 13:48.59 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: the difference is that with packages in the official debian repositories, those things are signed with debian keys |
| 13:49.14 | nevivurn | and you implicitly trust the people shipping your operating system, by necessity. |
| 13:49.19 | CyberManifest | don't know hadn't looked, but it did on Windows,, and people even on ##linux were warning me to stay clear of it |
| 13:49.21 | hwm4rgs | Wasn't that just SourceForge injecting adware in the Windows installer wizard thing for FZ? |
| 13:49.40 | ratrace | CyberManifest: so why are you mentioning it. that has nothing to do with the subject , or even debian at all. |
| 13:49.51 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: so why can't snap packs and flatpacks be signed with debian keys? |
| 13:50.05 | nevivurn | Because debian isn't maintaining those? |
| 13:50.20 | ratrace | difference between snaps and .debs, in THIS context, is that anyone can upload to snapstore. anyone. andything. .deb packages, from official debian repos, are curated, tested, very well tested before they come down to Stable. |
| 13:50.32 | nevivurn | If you trust the people publishing snaps and the such, that is perfectly fine. |
| 13:50.38 | CyberManifest | ratrace: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8tbfxd/filezilla_installer_is_suspicious_again/ |
| 13:50.48 | ratrace | now, technically it IS possible for malware to get through, especially with help of a maintainer, hypothetically, but it is very unlikely and so far, afaik, never happened. |
| 13:50.59 | nevivurn | looks at openssl |
| 13:51.08 | nevivurn | :P |
| 13:51.12 | ratrace | CyberManifest: I really couldn't care less about windows malware |
| 13:51.26 | CyberManifest | ratrace: but it's a software title like GIMP or Audacity etc. |
| 13:51.30 | ratrace | I'm talking about security implications of debian official repos vs snaps/flatpaks |
| 13:51.37 | CyberManifest | why is Snap and Flatpack any different? |
| 13:51.43 | ratrace | CyberManifest: it didn't affect debian, so it's irrelevant |
| 13:51.55 | ratrace | CyberManifest: I just explanined why |
| 13:52.08 | CyberManifest | ratrace: as I've shown packages slip through undected |
| 13:52.10 | ratrace | "difference between snaps and .debs, ...." |
| 13:52.12 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: the difference is in trust. People running debian are forced to trust debian maintainers. People running random snaps and such are forced to trust random people uploading stuff to the snaps hub. |
| 13:52.15 | Haohmaru | there's no "installer" on linux.. things don't wurk like that |
| 13:52.17 | ratrace | CyberManifest: on debian? |
| 13:52.24 | CyberManifest | ratrace: Yes |
| 13:52.37 | nevivurn | And generally, people trust debian maintainers more than random people uploading stuff to the snaps store. |
| 13:52.40 | CyberManifest | ratrace: screenfetch |
| 13:52.53 | ratrace | CyberManifest: that doesn't prove anything and the issue was closed as non-issue |
| 13:53.10 | ratrace | please file a bug report in BTS if you have knowledge of malware being introduced in regular, official debian repositories. |
| 13:53.13 | ratrace | !bts |
| 13:53.14 | dpkg | Bug Tracking System for Debian packages, http://bugs.debian.org/ or to go directly to the bug page for a particular package/bug, try http://bugs.debian.org/packagename or http://bugs.debian.org/bugnumber . aptitude install reportbug, and check out <querybts> too. Users of unstable and testing are required to check the BTS. See also <apt-listbugs>, <reportbug>. http://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS |
| 13:53.16 | CyberManifest | ratrace: that FileZilla was even on Linux |
| 13:53.38 | ratrace | again, if you have knowledge of malware being introduced in debian packages through regular repositories, please file a bug report asap. |
| 13:53.57 | CyberManifest | ratrace: nope, Never Filing any bug reports or malware reports ever again |
| 13:54.03 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: the issue with FileZilla or whatever is a completely separate issue from whether you trust *random people* uploading crap to flathub. |
| 13:54.03 | CyberManifest | it's met with hostility |
| 13:54.05 | ratrace | good for you, so this issue is moot. |
| 13:54.14 | CyberManifest | so it would seem |
| 13:55.56 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: it's no different that ftp or something, it's up to the user to take responsibility what they download from Flathub or Snap just like what you download from FTP or from anything that conects outside the walled guarden of Debian |
| 13:56.01 | CyberManifest | garden* |
| 13:56.40 | nevivurn | Yup, that is correct. |
| 13:56.46 | ratrace | if by "walled garden" you mean standard, official debian repos, then definitely yes. downloading random FTP code from random places is not too different than downloading a random snap. |
| 13:57.25 | ratrace | only snaps are containerized so it's LESS likely, but not impossible, they'd harm your host or install unwanted files _outside_ of their root |
| 13:57.34 | CyberManifest | ratrace: and yet tech support would probably extended for an ftp app or like base apps like curl or wget etc. |
| 13:57.47 | hwm4rgs | chews popcorn |
| 13:57.49 | nevivurn | ?? |
| 14:00.11 | CyberManifest | are mail and browser apps taboo too cause they're a potential for malware? |
| 14:00.11 | oxek | dka: walled guarden (sic) actually sounds like it should be a thing |
| 14:00.33 | oxek | ehh, sorry I did not mean to tag you |
| 14:01.02 | jelly | CyberManifest, every piece of software has "potential" to have malware embedded. |
| 14:01.11 | *** join/#debian Haudegen (~quassel@91.114.49.10) |
| 14:01.23 | Haohmaru | except mine |
| 14:01.29 | CyberManifest | jelly right, but only some seem to be cherry picked to be *supported* by debian |
| 14:02.09 | jelly | CyberManifest, yes, Debian has limited resources. You can volunteer your time and package some more, as long as it's DFSG-licensed |
| 14:02.11 | nevivurn | If by cherry-picked you mean "packaged by debian", sure? |
| 14:02.11 | ratrace | jelly: yes but the important difference is how likely that can happen in certain vector |
| 14:02.28 | ratrace | between snaps and debian repo? _HUGE_ difference. yuge! |
| 14:02.47 | CyberManifest | jelly, no thank you, I don't wish to be part of the gate keeping community |
| 14:03.10 | nevivurn | I genuinely do not understand what the complaint is here... |
| 14:03.13 | *** join/#debian NetTerminalGene (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dontknow) |
| 14:03.35 | ratrace | something somethign raspberry random version string somethign something |
| 14:03.46 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: aren't all .deb packages in the Debian repository "packaged by debian" ? |
| 14:03.50 | Ede|Popede | sounds like "debian repos aren't different at all from some downloadpage somewhere on the web" |
| 14:04.03 | nevivurn | Yes, if it's in the official repositories? |
| 14:04.36 | jelly | CyberManifest, in what way would the community need to change for you to not think of it as "gate keeping"? |
| 14:04.39 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: so broken packages like screenfetch |
| 14:05.02 | Haohmaru | dafuq is screenfetch even |
| 14:05.02 | nevivurn | I actually do not know of the context around screenfetch |
| 14:05.09 | ratrace | something somethign raspberry random version string somethign something |
| 14:05.12 | jelly | CyberManifest, I can't really figure out if you have an issue we can help solve, or not |
| 14:05.19 | ratrace | (hint: not) |
| 14:05.29 | Haohmaru | (hint hint: uh-uh) |
| 14:05.30 | CyberManifest | jelly: well treat packages and support equal for one |
| 14:05.49 | jelly | CyberManifest, do you have a package in particular? |
| 14:05.55 | Haohmaru | wut does that mean even |
| 14:06.00 | *** join/#debian nt1036 (~nt1036@2605:e000:1805:4ebb:d06e:3b33:75ab:548) |
| 14:06.14 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: is there some known vulnerability or backdoor in screenfetch? |
| 14:06.24 | CyberManifest | !screenfetch |
| 14:06.35 | Haohmaru | <crickets.wav> |
| 14:06.40 | ratrace | !info screenfetch |
| 14:06.43 | *** join/#debian x0n (~x0n@unaffiliated/x0n) |
| 14:06.44 | *** join/#debian Merixer_ (~Merixer@2001:470:deb8:a1::2) |
| 14:06.46 | nevivurn | =/ |
| 14:06.47 | dpkg | screenfetch: (Bash Screenshot Information Tool), section utils, is optional. Version: 3.9.1-2 (sid), Packaged size: 60 kB, Installed size: 265 kB |
| 14:06.53 | ratrace | ,v screenfetch |
| 14:06.54 | judd | Package: screenfetch on amd64 -- jessie: 3.6.5-1; stretch: 3.7.0-1; buster: 3.8.0-8; bullseye: 3.9.1-2; sid: 3.9.1-2 |
| 14:07.08 | CyberManifest | broken package on buster |
| 14:07.10 | jelly | CyberManifest, the thing is, Debian is composed of lots of people, mostly volunteers, some paid; people providing realtime support on irc are not all the same as people managing packages |
| 14:07.29 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: eh, broken how? |
| 14:07.57 | Haohmaru | CyberManifest so, did you report a bug? |
| 14:07.59 | Haohmaru | ;P~ |
| 14:08.05 | CyberManifest | jelly I get that, but some principles and claims posed shouldn't when they're false |
| 14:08.07 | nevivurn | Screenfetch is relatively well-known, I'm sure if someone noticed a bug in it someone should have reported it already. |
| 14:08.10 | ratrace | jelly: even if they were, minimum of decent behavior would suggest opening a bug report if there's an issue. |
| 14:08.26 | jelly | CyberManifest, sorry, you'll have to be more specific |
| 14:08.32 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: this is a genuine question, can you describe how screenfetch is broken on buster? |
| 14:08.45 | Haohmaru | +1 |
| 14:08.57 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru: not on debian, I did with raspbian because at the time I was using it. |
| 14:09.07 | *** join/#debian dez (uid92154@fedora/deSouza) |
| 14:09.09 | *** join/#debian ChmEarl (~chmearl@unaffiliated/prymar56) |
| 14:09.12 | Haohmaru | wait, so ur saying it's not broken on debian? |
| 14:09.13 | ratrace | so this is a totally misplaced conversation, lol |
| 14:09.17 | nevivurn | !raspbian |
| 14:09.17 | dpkg | Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. https://www.raspbian.org/ |
| 14:09.24 | Haohmaru | CyberManifest bruh |
| 14:09.26 | ratrace | something something broken on something out there and somehow Debian's fault. |
| 14:09.29 | nevivurn | That makes a lot of sense, right right. |
| 14:09.29 | ratrace | *PLONK* |
| 14:09.42 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru that's not what I'm saying at all |
| 14:09.57 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru: it is broken on Debian as well |
| 14:10.07 | ratrace | how would you know that? |
| 14:10.10 | Haohmaru | yeah, it's debian's fault whenever some "based-on-debian" sh*t ain't perfect |
| 14:10.18 | Ede|Popede | CyberManifest: which bug number? |
| 14:10.30 | *** join/#debian pk (~pk@unaffiliated/pkx) |
| 14:10.30 | CyberManifest | ratrace: from Debian's official repositories with Debian's key |
| 14:10.33 | CyberManifest | signed |
| 14:10.36 | ratrace | CyberManifest: if you aren't using it on debian, how would you know, or why would you think, it were broken on Debian? |
| 14:10.38 | nevivurn | It is explicitly not broken in *debian*, it's broken in *some weird distribution sharing some of debian's work* |
| 14:11.03 | CyberManifest | ratrace: test it for yourself THE DAMN THING IS BROKEN ON DEBIAN |
| 14:11.09 | Haohmaru | CyberManifest did u just.. ASSUME it's broken on debian? |
| 14:11.14 | CyberManifest | how hard is it to grab a VM and see |
| 14:11.29 | Ede|Popede | CyberManifest: your own experience or did you see a bugreport for buster? |
| 14:11.31 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: It wowkrs for me. |
| 14:11.31 | CyberManifest | I KNOW IT'S BROKEN |
| 14:11.35 | ratrace | you're the one claimiing it's broken, I don't _have_ to anything. You do. |
| 14:11.36 | nevivurn | so go away. |
| 14:11.50 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: you on buster? |
| 14:11.52 | nevivurn | yes. |
| 14:11.53 | ratrace | file a bug report or answer nevivurn's question of HOW is it broken. so far all I see here is trolling. |
| 14:11.55 | nevivurn | want a screenshot? |
| 14:12.03 | hwm4rgs | https://irc.mrowr.me/uploads/d40341db5bcf7e80/sf.png Screenfetch works fine on buster |
| 14:12.03 | CyberManifest | nevivurun and what version ? |
| 14:12.07 | CyberManifest | of package? |
| 14:12.11 | nevivurn | whatever's on stable |
| 14:12.20 | CyberManifest | maybe it's only with Zsh |
| 14:12.24 | ratrace | hwm4rgs: you don't say :) |
| 14:12.42 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: oh, and now you're not so sure |
| 14:12.50 | CyberManifest | package v3.8.0-8 ? |
| 14:12.52 | ratrace | but now....... the $1M question ........ how is that related to the complaint that it's malware? |
| 14:13.03 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: I'm sure it was broken for me on debian |
| 14:13.10 | CyberManifest | that could be hardware specific, |
| 14:13.14 | Haohmaru | ratrace quantum logic acts in weird ways |
| 14:13.17 | hwm4rgs | CyberManifest: 3.8.0-8 works fine in zsh. https://irc.mrowr.me/uploads/2d77d70a6bd742a7/sfz.png |
| 14:13.28 | ratrace | Haohmaru: I think quantum mechanics would break EVEN in this example :)))) |
| 14:13.30 | hwm4rgs | Go bother the raspberry people. |
| 14:13.41 | Ede|Popede | well played, hwm4rgs :D |
| 14:13.48 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: yeah, ok sure. Come back to us (and if you do find a bug, do report it) if you can properly describe how it is broken. |
| 14:13.59 | CyberManifest | hwm4rgs: your sudo apt policy screenfetch |
| 14:14.15 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: Fuck You |
| 14:14.17 | ratrace | this whole convo about screenfetch started with it being given as example of MALWARE in debian ...... |
| 14:14.21 | Haohmaru | shh, bruh |
| 14:14.22 | wsky | whoa |
| 14:14.35 | ratrace | oh I hear the bannhammer wakin' up. |
| 14:14.39 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: it's not really useful to try to get information about installations where it works perfectly well, describe your system and now it's broken there. |
| 14:14.47 | nevivurn | And make sure it's actually running debian. |
| 14:15.01 | nevivurn | s/now/how/ |
| 14:15.05 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: it is if they're lieing |
| 14:15.16 | ratrace | but _who_ is lying? |
| 14:15.20 | hwm4rgs | CyberManifest: https://irc.mrowr.me/uploads/925520eefbae8942/pol.png , and language. |
| 14:15.21 | nevivurn | Who... is lying... about what? |
| 14:15.32 | nevivurn | I'm done... |
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| 14:15.49 | Haohmaru | sets mode: +o jelly |
| 14:16.02 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:16.07 | CyberManifest | I don't understand |
| 14:16.12 | CyberManifest | why would it be borken on mine |
| 14:16.16 | CyberManifest | but not theirs |
| 14:16.19 | hwm4rgs | Because you're not running debian. |
| 14:16.34 | Ede|Popede | because something is broken on your system? |
| 14:16.34 | CyberManifest | hwm4rgs: I was |
| 14:16.34 | Haohmaru | crapberry != amd64 debian |
| 14:16.50 | ratrace | raspbian is NOT debian, btw. |
| 14:16.52 | CyberManifest | hwm4rgs: I'm not now |
| 14:16.53 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: if you're being serious, please describe *how* it's broken. Do you see any unexpected behavior? Any wrong output? |
| 14:16.54 | Ede|Popede | <CyberManifest> Haohmaru: not on debian, I did with raspbian because at the time I was using it. |
| 14:16.57 | CyberManifest | It wasn't raspbian |
| 14:17.10 | ratrace | lol Ede|Popede just quoted you...... |
| 14:17.15 | CyberManifest | https://raspi.debian.net/ |
| 14:17.50 | nevivurn | "This site is not an official Debian project. While the maintainer (Gunnar Wolf) is a Debian Developer, content herein provided should be considered unofficial." |
| 14:17.50 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: yes it reports the shell as a number instead of the sheel |
| 14:18.02 | Haohmaru | CyberManifest look here, bruh, if you have Debian.. actual Debian stable.. and you are experiencing a problem - you can come in here and explain your problem and wait for help.. |
| 14:18.03 | CyberManifest | shell |
| 14:18.10 | Ede|Popede | uh, may remember this page |
| 14:18.21 | ratrace | CyberManifest: but you gave that as example of malware on Debian, no? |
| 14:18.22 | Haohmaru | instead, you're talking about other sh*t and people can't get you to answer simple questions |
| 14:18.31 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru, well I'm not on it anymore |
| 14:18.47 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru, it may be ARM specific |
| 14:18.59 | hwm4rgs | (a shell script) |
| 14:19.12 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru: what simple questions? |
| 14:19.26 | Haohmaru | "how is it broken" <- someone asked you this like 5 times |
| 14:19.34 | CyberManifest | and I answered that |
| 14:19.40 | Ede|Popede | where? |
| 14:19.41 | nevivurn | To be fair, they did answer that, albeit not in a helpful way. |
| 14:19.43 | Haohmaru | on the 6th time? |
| 14:19.47 | ratrace | given your language here...... I am actually HAPPY you're NOT reporting bugs any more. As a former maintainer, I __hated__ toxic people like you. demanding shit and alll... https://github.com/RPi-Distro/repo/issues/197 |
| 14:19.51 | CyberManifest | nevivurn: yes it reports the shell as a number instead of the shell |
| 14:20.30 | CyberManifest | ratrace: YOUR TOXIC |
| 14:20.32 | nevivurn | CyberManifest: just so you're clear, https://raspi.debian.net/ is not official debian |
| 14:20.32 | *** join/#debian areisp (~ars@unaffiliated/areisp) |
| 14:20.34 | ratrace | NO U |
| 14:20.43 | *** join/#debian nickname123 (~nickname1@adsl-84-227-65-72.adslplus.ch) |
| 14:20.44 | CyberManifest | take a look in mirror |
| 14:20.53 | ratrace | I see a handsome chap. |
| 14:21.02 | CyberManifest | a toxic one |
| 14:21.23 | hwm4rgs | Quality entertainment. |
| 14:21.28 | Haohmaru | CyberManifest this is not how you ask for help.. |
| 14:21.38 | ratrace | Haohmaru: pass that popcorn pls. |
| 14:21.39 | nevivurn | This has come full circle and is now hilarious. |
| 14:21.47 | Ede|Popede | was this supposed to be a bugreport or just a rant on github? |
| 14:21.53 | Haohmaru | you can have that kind of attidude on some payware OS support forum |
| 14:21.57 | CyberManifest | Haohmaru: oh please sir teach me how to me pious like you |
| 14:22.01 | themill | CyberManifest: that's more than enough. we've been through it multiple times about how this is not appropriate |
| 14:22.02 | *** mode/#debian [+o themill] by ChanServ |
| 14:22.05 | *** mode/#debian [+b *!*@50.25.206.180] by themill |
| 14:22.07 | *** kick/#debian [CyberManifest!~stuart@unaffiliated/themill] by themill (On the Internet nobody can hear you being subtle.) |
| 14:22.08 | *** mode/#debian [-o themill] by themill |
| 14:22.15 | Haohmaru | huhuhu |
| 14:23.34 | Ede|Popede | windows? 3 calls during installation and 60 days later or something? or did they change it in the meantime? |
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| 14:27.56 | ratrace | Ede|Popede: speaking of, if you tell it you don't have internet during installation, you're not bothered with creating an online account |
| 14:28.36 | *** join/#debian \\Mr_C\\ (~mrc@cpe-75-187-191-230.neo.res.rr.com) |
| 14:28.37 | Ede|Popede | ratrace: yeah, i kept it in some dusty memory bank just for the case i may ever need it ;) |
| 14:28.39 | ratrace | was installing W10 in a VM with virtio network, and didn't have network (which required later adding the RH virtio_net drivers). surprised how fast that went |
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| 14:29.15 | Ede|Popede | actually the other pc isn't networked (yet) and i'm still not sure how i'd want to do it. |
| 14:29.58 | Haohmaru | sees a conversation about windewz10 |
| 14:30.01 | Haohmaru | gets the bleach |
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| 14:30.19 | ratrace | Haohmaru: it's on topic. I made me a W10 gaming VM with PCI passthru on Buster :) |
| 14:30.31 | Haohmaru | perverted |
| 14:30.33 | Ede|Popede | Haohmaru: plz don't drink it k thx |
| 14:30.50 | ratrace | Haohmaru: necessary tho. borderlands3 glitched like crazy under proton |
| 14:31.06 | Ede|Popede | PCI pssthru? you mean.... [winbox]-[debian]-[internetz] ? |
| 14:31.07 | Haohmaru | border-watz? |
| 14:31.19 | *** join/#debian polyphem (~p0lyph3m@2a02:810d:640:776c:76d7:55f6:f85b:c889) |
| 14:31.27 | ratrace | Ede|Popede: I mean hardware PCI passthrough, like the GPU and mouse+keyboard USB lane |
| 14:31.32 | Ede|Popede | ah |
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| 14:32.09 | *** mode/#debian [-b *!*@50.25.206.180] by themill |
| 14:32.11 | *** mode/#debian [-o themill] by themill |
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| 14:36.24 | Deknos | hey, i run kubuntu in a virtual machine (virtualbox) on debian buster as a host. and i want to take a screenshot there, but when i press print, nothing happens.. any idea? |
| 14:36.45 | Deknos | i deactivated print for the host as well for the screenshot (spectacle), i have kde both on guest and host |
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| 14:37.27 | nevivurn | !kubuntu |
| 14:37.27 | dpkg | i guess kubuntu is yet another Debian derivative. It is <Ubuntu> with KDE instead of GNOME. As such, it is not Debian and is not supported on #debian (see <based on debian caveats>). For kubuntu support, please join #kubuntu on chat.freenode.net. |
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| 14:38.47 | Deknos | i meant it more in the virtualbox way :) |
| 14:38.57 | Deknos | could be a guest OR an virtualbox issue |
| 14:39.07 | Deknos | but i am not sure. |
| 14:39.07 | ratrace | doesn't screenshotting the window from the host work? |
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| 14:39.08 | Haohmaru | Deknos you wanna make a screenshot of the virtual thang, or of the whole thang? |
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| 14:39.46 | Haohmaru | at worst you could run one of those GUI screenshot toolz |
| 14:39.46 | Deknos | i want to make a screenshot IN the virtualmachine (with pressing print if possible), but as my keyboard goes through host and virtualbox to guest, i am not sure where this blocks/hangs |
| 14:39.55 | Deknos | spectacle is such a tool |
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| 14:40.12 | Haohmaru | and the virtual thing is.. kubuntu? |
| 14:40.47 | Deknos | but i have IN the virtual machine a full screen size application so i cannot navigate to some button on some application but have to use my physical keyboard |
| 14:40.50 | Deknos | yes |
| 14:40.58 | another | ratrace: don't you need the GPU on the host though? |
| 14:41.02 | jelly | Deknos, you can always use a different standalone tool, like scrot, in either the host or the guest |
| 14:41.11 | Deknos | but why does the pressing of the button print NOT arrive IN the virtual machine? |
| 14:41.20 | ratrace | another: I use another one on the host. |
| 14:41.24 | jelly | as a workaround |
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| 14:41.38 | another | ah |
| 14:43.24 | Haohmaru | Deknos who knows.. printscr is kinda a speshul key |
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| 14:50.52 | Deknos | so.. you do know no either. :D anyway thanks for the help |
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| 14:53.02 | Haohmaru | it wurkz on my debian+lxde ;P~ |
| 14:53.10 | Haohmaru | without virtual crap |
| 14:53.14 | Ede|Popede | what was the cli tool to read keycodes? the one stopping after 10s of no keys pressed |
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| 14:54.58 | Ede|Popede | odd, `xev -event keyboard` still produces "KeymapNotify event, serial 26, synthetic NO, window 0x0" when i just move the mouse |
| 14:55.02 | Deknos | Ede|Popede, that i want to know too |
| 14:55.20 | Deknos | Haohmaru, you opinionated human |
| 14:55.50 | Ede|Popede | Deknos: tried to tabcomplete key / scan / read, seems to be none of them or i don't have it installed |
| 14:56.00 | Haohmaru | <opinion_intensifies.jpg> |
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| 14:56.26 | Ede|Popede | wasn't it SysRq sending 6 bytes on keypress? |
| 14:57.25 | jelly | Alt+PrtSc is a bit different from just PrtSc, PrtSc on its own is not that special |
| 14:58.27 | Ede|Popede | isn't this a hardcoded combo to emulate some odd keyboard from ancient times? |
| 14:59.15 | jelly | odd keyboard controller. From IBM PC. |
| 14:59.28 | Deknos | okay, now i have to know how to interpret xev, since i GET something when i hit PrintScreen |
| 14:59.46 | Deknos | and in KDE Shift+PrintScreen is set for screenshot |
| 14:59.49 | Deknos | that is.. strange |
| 15:00.17 | Deknos | lol wait |
| 15:00.24 | Deknos | this is INDEED an kubuntu issue |
| 15:00.37 | Deknos | i am so sorry guys :D |
| 15:01.13 | jelly | it's hard to know whether the issue is on the host or on the guest, sometimes |
| 15:01.32 | Deknos | yeah |
| 15:01.51 | Deknos | and to think that they configure SCREENSHOTS in kde for debian and kubuntu differently... WILD |
| 15:01.52 | Deknos | :D |
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| 15:20.14 | ratrace | Deknos: not that wild at all. such unintuitive differences are plenty and reason why factoids like !based on debian exist, and why we can't support derivatives. who knows what kind of change is done |
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| 15:21.48 | Haohmaru | Deknos there's a reason why i hate KDE |
| 15:21.50 | Haohmaru | ;P~ |
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| 15:22.04 | jelly | onlt the people who actually made a derivative distro know what they changed |
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| 15:36.51 | Deknos | ratrace, i did not ask you because of debian, but because of virtualbox on debian. i thought something in virtualbox blocks. :) i asked in kubuntu, too, for the case it was in kubuntu |
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| 15:39.12 | Deknos | but the better help was the xev-hint of Ede|Popede. with that i can test that for myself in the future =D |
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| 15:39.52 | Ede|Popede | :happy: :snoopy: |
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| 15:58.12 | fling | What is hwe? |
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| 16:00.05 | Haohmaru | horrific working environment? |
| 16:00.12 | Haohmaru | any context? |
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| 16:05.53 | GNU\colossus | in the context of Ubuntu LTS kernel images, I think "hwe" expands to "hardware enablement" |
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| 17:02.40 | kwami | Hi every1, where can I find a debian specialization school to get a debian expert certification |
| 17:03.06 | ratrace | is that even a thing |
| 17:03.21 | kwami | Dont know, but should be |
| 17:03.41 | fireba11 | kwami: i suggest starting with LPIC but those are distro-agnostic |
| 17:03.58 | ratrace | There's LinuxAcademy too, for distro agnostic stuffs |
| 17:04.35 | kwami | The point is: even though linux has the same base, but I think the market must to choose professionals according to the distro |
| 17:04.46 | ratrace | but I don't know how valuable all those certs are. If you want a cert for professional reasons, job opportunities, then RHEL certification is the way to go |
| 17:05.00 | ratrace | kwami: nah, enterprise only cares about RHEL |
| 17:05.20 | ratrace | (the kind of enterprise where these certifications are valuable, I mean) |
| 17:05.22 | fireba11 | kwami: most linux guys handle every distro just fine |
| 17:06.06 | ratrace | yeah don't be so sure, there's many differences. I for example wouldn't dare handling centos in enterprise production without toying wiht it for a few months. |
| 17:06.11 | sney | yeah, if you have RHEL (or hell, any of the Unix certs) and you actually have the skills and aren't just a paper tech, you will be fine using any modern *nix and technical managers know this |
| 17:06.15 | fireba11 | i used to work with debian only, new job got centos all around ... a bit annoying but didn't really make much difference |
| 17:06.54 | sney | no, what's the RH cert called. RHCE, there we go |
| 17:07.04 | ratrace | there's several RHEL certs |
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| 17:07.23 | sney | everyone's is tiered I guess. the only certs I ever got were the networking ones |
| 17:07.29 | kwami | I think debian shoul have a cert too |
| 17:07.45 | ratrace | and don't be so sure about knowing one linux distro. for enterprise environments, you'd need to know how to handle selinux. |
| 17:07.51 | sney | LPIC Level 1 had a debian version back in 2005 or so |
| 17:08.29 | kwami | AppArmor does the same work, doesnt ratrace? |
| 17:08.39 | ratrace | kwami: it's very much different from selinux though |
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| 17:09.11 | ratrace | I worked with SELinux for years, then I Switched to AppArmor which I'm doing today. it'd take me some time to re-learn all the SELinux peculiarities |
| 17:09.27 | sney | kwami: what's your real goal, here? are you hoping to learn the skills needed to work in linux ops with debian and derivatives, or formalize skills you already have? your initial question could go either way |
| 17:09.28 | kwami | For extense, I wanna open a small company to give especific support to debian machines on production enviroment |
| 17:10.12 | ratrace | kwami: also don't rely on certs so much. if my company was hiring, the cert would me nothing, you'd be given a test to see how you'd handle situations that were specific to us. |
| 17:10.20 | ratrace | would *mean |
| 17:12.00 | ratrace | also if you wanted to work for us, extensive experience with zfs and/or btrfs would be a requirement, neither of which is certified by RH |
| 17:12.57 | sney | in tech, especially in ops, experience is king. nobody but HR *really* cares about the alphabet soup if it's not backed up by real-world experience |
| 17:13.10 | ratrace | indeed. |
| 17:13.33 | sney | this can be kind of a catch-22 if you're young and skilled, but most of us figured it out somehow |
| 17:13.52 | kwami | sney: I work with debian almost 5 years and I did notice that debian is as good as the paid systems leading the market on linux segment. So I intend to create a small company to support customers handling debian linux server (Its a inexistent thing in my country) |
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| 17:14.09 | Deknos | kwami, do all lpic certs and RHCSA and RHCE and you know a little bit :D |
| 17:14.18 | somiaj | becoming a DD could almost be considered a debian cert, though that is above and beyond what most certs will require |
| 17:14.36 | sney | kwami: alright, if you're the only guy in the market who can say "5 years experience with debian" then that's your cert. |
| 17:14.55 | Deknos | somiaj, actually that would show you are able to work in a big distributed team. that's worth something |
| 17:15.04 | sney | get some print copies of the administrator's handbook for your office so customers can tell you're serious. |
| 17:15.06 | ratrace | 5 years is not that much, honestly. |
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| 17:15.13 | Deknos | not really |
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| 17:15.26 | somiaj | Deknos: and the path to DD is a long one and requires much more than just skills with debian. |
| 17:15.31 | Deknos | i work on and with linux for over 10 years. i still do not know jackshit |
| 17:15.36 | ratrace | Deknos: same here. |
| 17:15.41 | Deknos | but maybe i am just a dummy |
| 17:15.41 | n4dir | Deknos: same here. |
| 17:15.48 | flayer | me too |
| 17:15.51 | sney | in the land of the blind, etc |
| 17:15.55 | ratrace | and I'm a professional sysadmin :) and DBA. And python dev. And devops. and security guy :) |
| 17:16.19 | sney | I've retired from IT twice now and I'll only go back if society collapses, but helping for free is fun sometimes |
| 17:16.28 | Deknos | ratrace, i am a professional sysadmin and devops and python dev as well. and i saw other people too. that does not mean anything anymore in the times of online courses |
| 17:16.42 | Deknos | there people out there... >.< |
| 17:16.43 | kwami | sney:::::::::WHAT?? |
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| 17:17.04 | ratrace | Deknos: I mean, I do have all that exp, but I still know jack shit. for exeample I wouldn't be hired in a company that wanted cocker or k8s experience. |
| 17:17.09 | ratrace | *docker ... really, typo. |
| 17:17.14 | Deknos | hahaha |
| 17:17.16 | sney | kwami: lol. what? |
| 17:17.17 | Deknos | yeah yeah, typo |
| 17:17.24 | Deknos | i like it |
| 17:17.30 | n4dir | i once wanted to learn programming from a guy who studied IT, and he didn't know you can write source code with an editor. |
| 17:17.32 | ratrace | and everyone does dockers and k8s these days, not me tho. |
| 17:18.02 | n4dir | he didn't even know what an editor is. lol |
| 17:18.02 | ratrace | n4dir: IDE only? |
| 17:18.08 | n4dir | ratrace: yes. |
| 17:18.11 | Deknos | if i ever build a semiserious container implementation, i will call it cocker. |
| 17:18.23 | Deknos | thanks to you ratrace :D |
| 17:18.26 | ratrace | lol |
| 17:18.51 | kwami | ratrace: I knw 5 yrs aint much time, but is a good beggining |
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| 17:19.32 | ratrace | kwami: sure. |
| 17:19.41 | somiaj | it also depends, 5 years as a hobbiest running a home server, or 5 years in a production enviorment are much different. |
| 17:20.03 | ratrace | the former knows more. the latter is probably locked into one paradigm like docker and can't do anything wihtout it :) |
| 17:20.06 | Deknos | my greatest experience is always when i or my colleagues fuck something up |
| 17:20.07 | somiaj | I have like 20 years of running home servers, but I know nothing, yet some how my job to save money has me manging their department servers too |
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| 17:20.24 | Deknos | "ups... that shouldnt happen" |
| 17:21.08 | kwami | somiaj: 1 as a hobbie and 4 in production environment |
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| 17:21.35 | n4dir | Warning: no translation found for 'en_US' locale: /usr/share/qt5/translations/qt_en_US.qm |
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| 17:21.48 | n4dir | what might i be missing? |
| 17:22.00 | ratrace | I was hobbying around linux since early 2000s, started doing it professionally circa 2008 |
| 17:22.09 | somiaj | n4dir: dpkg-reconfigure locale, did you build the en_US locale? |
| 17:22.32 | somiaj | n4dir: now days only the utf-8 one is built by default and I think you need to manually go select en_US |
| 17:22.36 | somiaj | well utf-8 and C |
| 17:23.21 | somiaj | kwami: though sounds like a cert won't do you much good, starting a business will probably be a strugle until you get a few satsified clients and testomonials |
| 17:23.27 | n4dir | somiaj: thanks, let me try |
| 17:23.51 | somiaj | at least if I was ever looking for a company to outsource, I wouldn't care about certs, but other clients and satsifaction |
| 17:24.10 | steve_ | Hello, I'm installing debian onto a USB drive and it takes forever, almost 24 hours later and it is still at "Select and Install software". Mostly "Unpacking" some package. Is that normal? |
| 17:24.47 | ratrace | kwami: aside to what somiaj suggested, be sure you always "dogfood" your services. offering email server support? be sure you're running your own. web services? have ngixn and/or apache power your sites, on your own hosted servers, ... |
| 17:24.59 | ratrace | steve_: nope |
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| 17:25.21 | ratrace | USB sticks have very poor IOPS and bandwidth, but even at few MB/s it should finish in an hour or so |
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| 17:25.40 | lycanthrope | Hello people, I am new to Linux and Debian, is there any newbie friendly way to learn, how this preseed cfg works? Is there any option like "gui Kickstarter" for Debian? |
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| 17:25.43 | ratrace | steve_: is it netisnt or some other ISO? |
| 17:25.48 | ratrace | *netinst |
| 17:26.00 | somiaj | steve_: live systems with persistance are often much better on a usb drive than installing debian on one. |
| 17:26.37 | kwami | somiaj: actually a feel myself able to handle majority of what companies demand in my country. But the prob is we are linux new user in my country, so most of holders just want to deploy servers with distros they hear about |
| 17:26.45 | steve_ | ratrace: odd that it's even going at all. It's the DVD iso on USB stick #1, I selected to get packages from the Internet, and the install target is Usb Stick #2 |
| 17:26.56 | somiaj | lycanthrope: are you needing to install debian on lots of systems? (just wondering if preseed is the best way to go if you are new). Most of the preseed docs I've seen are taking the example one and edit it. |
| 17:27.01 | kwami | And the fact of some distros being paid the prefer it |
| 17:27.16 | somiaj | lycanthrope: have you found https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed yet |
| 17:27.38 | ratrace | kwami: RHEL is then your best chance in such environment. it's easier to sell RHEL than Debian, to companies. |
| 17:28.00 | kwami | ratrace: I luv debian! |
| 17:28.31 | somiaj | that maybe so, but companies love enterprise support and the perks that come with it |
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| 17:28.47 | ratrace | indeed. |
| 17:28.56 | kwami | and I want show how good the system is even in production enviroment |
| 17:28.57 | somiaj | anyways, I think the biggest hurdle is just going to be time and getting enough satsified customers |
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| 17:29.33 | kwami | somiaj: thats why I want give the specific support to debian users |
| 17:30.08 | steve_ | somiaj: do you mean I have a USB drive with the live image and have another partition on it for data or more packages? |
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| 17:32.50 | lycanthrope | Yes sir, https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/example-preseed.txt |
| 17:32.50 | lycanthrope | Is this cfg file includes all the possible configuration? |
| 17:32.50 | lycanthrope | Also hdd partitioning portion looks very confusing to me. |
| 17:34.01 | lycanthrope | How do you guys install debian without monitor? |
| 17:34.20 | somiaj | steve_: there are various ways to do persistence, some just do a persistant $HOME, but if there are packages you need not on the live system, that means you ahve to install them each time. There are ways to make the live system have peristant packages, and there are ways with live-build to build a custom live system with the software you use. There is a lot of variety here (and most methods do take a bit |
| 17:34.26 | somiaj | of work) |
| 17:34.59 | somiaj | lycanthrope: I have never had to do that, but the debian isntaller contains an ssh option, but you need a monintor (even over a serial port) for a few questions to turn that option on, then you can ssh in and finsih the install |
| 17:35.20 | steve_ | I see it is a thing on google, first time hearing of this, thanks |
| 17:35.31 | somiaj | lycanthrope: that preseed contains most the common options, I think more obsure ones you have to look into debconf a bit more (I don't know the details on this) |
| 17:36.33 | sney | lycanthrope: are you trying to install a headless system for the first time? there may be a simpler approach. |
| 17:36.44 | somiaj | lycanthrope: there are also ways to debootstrap and install a system directly to an hd, then move it to the machine and boot from it, there are also tools (I think puppet) that can help automate this, but these are thigns I've never done and only seen in passing....others here have more experience and might ahve better advise. |
| 17:37.17 | lycanthrope | @sney yes |
| 17:38.14 | sney | lycanthrope: ok. don't @ people on irc, most clients ignore that kind of highlight. your easiest option is to connect a monitor for the first few minutes of the install, enable the installer ssh server, and do the rest remotely. |
| 17:38.27 | lycanthrope | somiaj: tell me where to look in debconf? How to look? |
| 17:39.01 | lycanthrope | Sorry first time irc user |
| 17:39.48 | sney | you can also install debian on a different computer, make sure initramfs-tools is set to modules=most, configure the network as best as you can and then move the hard drive to your server. linux isn't married to specific hardware so this usually just works |
| 17:40.24 | n4dir | sney: but you would still need to get grub installed, no ? |
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| 17:40.50 | somiaj | n4dir: part of doing that installs grub on the hd you transfer over. |
| 17:40.54 | sney | ^ |
| 17:41.12 | n4dir | yeah, but how would you boot from that hd? or does it "just work" ? |
| 17:41.17 | sney | just worsk |
| 17:41.30 | n4dir | oh my god. voodoo. (kidding aside: thanks for the info) |
| 17:41.43 | sney | the OS drive in the system I'm typing this on is on its 3rd computer now, and all I've ever had to do is set the disk order in the bios |
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| 17:42.08 | n4dir | i usually rsynced the installation over, but that always needed a monitor for the final steps. |
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| 17:42.37 | n4dir | grub, fstab and a little bit more (forgot what) |
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| 17:42.44 | neilthereildeil | hey guiys |
| 17:42.50 | neilthereildeil | im still trying to install mongodb |
| 17:42.54 | sney | there *might* be an extra step for efi but I think as long as it can find the bootloader you're good to go |
| 17:43.01 | neilthereildeil | i followed the instructions on their website |
| 17:43.09 | neilthereildeil | and am now getting this error: https://paste.debian.net/1163310/ |
| 17:43.11 | n4dir | got you. |
| 17:43.14 | neilthereildeil | what should i try next? |
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| 17:43.34 | somiaj | n4dir: provided the firmware is setup to boot legacy/uefi (depending on how the drive is setup), the networking is usually a bigger snag. If the firmware isn't setup to boot from the hd, that is another story. |
| 17:44.16 | somiaj | neilthereildeil: what exactly do you need mongodb for, mongodb-c-driver is in debian |
| 17:44.33 | neilthereildeil | the app i am installing requires it |
| 17:45.07 | n4dir | i yet have to run in a wired connection which doesn't work right away, but that might be me |
| 17:45.08 | somiaj | neilthereildeil: requires it in what sense? https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/mongo-c-driver contains libbson and libmongoc, so if you just need the libs.... |
| 17:45.38 | neilthereildeil | cuckoo sandbox requires mongodb for the front end web interface in django: https://cuckoo.readthedocs.io/en/latest/installation/host/requirements/ |
| 17:45.46 | oerheks | neilthereildeil, i would expect https for mongodb.org, that would require apt-transport-https.. |
| 17:45.47 | rf-n00b | /usr/bin/curl -sLO https://www.mongodb.org/static/pgp/server-4.4.asc && sudo /usr/bin/apt-key add server-4.4.asc |
| 17:45.48 | somiaj | n4dir: interface names are a bit harder to predeitc these days since they won't always be eth0....that is more the issue I was thinking. |
| 17:46.19 | neilthereildeil | i got the key downloaded |
| 17:46.23 | lycanthrope | Ok guys I will try tomorrow and let you guys know. Cya |
| 17:46.23 | neilthereildeil | the asc file |
| 17:46.30 | oerheks | wget -qO - https://www.mongodb.org/static/pgp/server-4.4.asc | sudo apt-key add - |
| 17:46.30 | neilthereildeil | but now i need to apt-update |
| 17:46.34 | neilthereildeil | and thats the failure |
| 17:46.54 | Aurora_v_kosmose | So, ABCL builds. Tests currently refuse to run without clearnet maven access. |
| 17:47.01 | neilthereildeil | apt-key add server-4.4.asc |
| 17:47.05 | neilthereildeil | so it added it |
| 17:47.10 | neilthereildeil | but update gives errors still |
| 17:47.12 | somiaj | neilthereildeil: okay just checking it wasn't just the libaries you needed which are in debian. |
| 17:47.51 | n4dir | somiaj: ah right you are. That was different with eth0 |
| 17:48.00 | somiaj | oerheks: although apt-key is being depericated..., though that still works, I htink it is preferable to add certs manually to /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/ |
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| 17:48.55 | oerheks | somiaj, oke, i was just using https://docs.mongodb.com/manual/tutorial/install-mongodb-on-debian/ |
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| 17:49.20 | somiaj | yea, apt-key is currently sptting out a warning in testnig at least, unsure if it is yet in buster, still works, just sharing info |
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| 17:49.48 | oerheks | maybe gnupg is missing.. |
| 17:50.04 | rf-n00b | apt install -f ? |
| 17:51.06 | neilthereildeil | it says the signature is bad |
| 17:52.56 | rf-n00b | sudo apt-key list | \ |
| 17:52.56 | rf-n00b | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.57 | rf-n00b | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.57 | rf-n00b | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:53.18 | rf-n00b | use the right key server |
| 17:53.24 | dka | I have a copy stuck at 99% of a 1.4GB file done through nemo explorer on my USB stick, what should I do to keep my key safe ? |
| 17:53.32 | rf-n00b | this worked for me before in ubuntu to fix broken keys |
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| 18:16.41 | Aurora_v_kosmose | I think I might want to try packaging Kawa Scheme first. |
| 18:16.48 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Its build files are a lot less fussy. |
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| 18:20.19 | NetTerminalGene | guys, my repo gave some error to me. i want to change the mirror https://www.debian.org/mirror/list |
| 18:20.33 | NetTerminalGene | but i don't know which syntax i should use |
| 18:22.13 | alex11 | just edit the entries in /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 18:22.27 | alex11 | deb <repo url> main <contrib non-free> |
| 18:22.40 | alex11 | except for the security repo which is its own separate thing |
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| 18:26.27 | dvs | It's weird how all those mirrors are prefixed with "ftp" when ftp is no longer supported. |
| 18:26.54 | NetTerminalGene | alex11: thanks solved |
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| 18:28.37 | ratrace | dvs: legacy. |
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| 18:31.56 | dvs | ratrace, they can't add an "http." prefix as well? |
| 18:33.21 | ratrace | that's just arbitrary naming. adding that hostname would serve little purpose |
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| 18:37.28 | mutante | FTP is now a recursive acronym for FTP ain't a an FTP server, or something. fixed? |
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| 18:46.20 | ratrace | moldy: FTP is a Terminated Protocol |
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| 18:51.24 | nkuttler | hrm, is there a vnc server i can start remotely? |
| 18:51.44 | nkuttler | (app is already running and i don't want to restart it) |
| 18:51.50 | greycat | All of 'em? Which one *can't* yoU? I mean, you ssh in and run "vncserver :1" or whatever. |
| 18:52.01 | nkuttler | oh right.. |
| 18:52.15 | nkuttler | i documented that at work.. |
| 18:52.21 | greycat | but your second question seems to imply something quite different |
| 18:53.03 | nkuttler | not really? can't use ssh-x or xpra to control the app? |
| 18:53.35 | greycat | "I screwed up and ran the app in :0 but it should be running in :1 and I don't want to restart it" or something |
| 18:53.58 | nkuttler | nah, that's fine |
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| 19:21.06 | hiya | So, basically, I am trying to enter bios of my laptop, I cannot. It just asked for FDE password. Do not follow any DEL, F1,F2,F8,F12 |
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| 19:21.53 | sney | you will probably have to reset it manually |
| 19:22.00 | greycat | ESC is another one to try, or read the documentation for your device |
| 19:22.18 | sney | most lenovos will give you a rudimentary menu if you hit enter, too |
| 19:22.25 | sney | but yes tl;dr read the manual |
| 19:22.43 | hiya | It is AVITA laptop |
| 19:23.12 | hiya | https://avita.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005457994-How-to-access-the-UEFI-BIOS |
| 19:23.20 | hiya | This says it is ESC key, I have tried it. |
| 19:23.31 | sney | [13:21:53] <sney> you will probably have to reset it manually |
| 19:23.32 | greycat | hit it early and often |
| 19:23.51 | hiya | Ok I try again bye |
| 19:23.59 | hiya | greycat: Can I boot into bios from Grub? |
| 19:24.04 | hiya | Could it be FDE preventing it? |
| 19:24.24 | hiya | I will reboot and try now |
| 19:24.49 | ratrace | if it's bios based, hardware based fde, then maybe. if it's software based within linux, then no. |
| 19:26.41 | hiya | Software based FDE |
| 19:26.48 | hiya | Nope ESC isn't working |
| 19:27.04 | ratrace | F10? |
| 19:27.19 | hiya | ESC + F10? |
| 19:27.21 | ratrace | mash all the keys on boot until you get in. thats what I had to do more than once |
| 19:27.30 | flayer | F2 sometimes |
| 19:27.54 | RoyK | what's FDE? |
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| 19:28.08 | ratrace | Full Disk Encryption |
| 19:28.13 | RoyK | right |
| 19:28.23 | hiya | So esc and f10 and f2 isn't working |
| 19:28.29 | greycat | remembers when computers used to display information on the screen, including the name of the key you had to press to enter the BIOS, and would actually GIVE YOU A FEW SECONDS to hit said key AFTER displaying information... man, that was a long time ago... |
| 19:28.40 | ratrace | a bit misnomer, it's "full sans /boot and efi and/or bios_grub" :) |
| 19:29.06 | greycat | now it's literally "hit esc as many times as you can after you power it on, hell fuck it, BEFORE you power it on, just keep banging it like a bongo" |
| 19:29.09 | flayer | greycat, nobody has patience for that |
| 19:29.16 | flayer | you want boot and go |
| 19:29.18 | flayer | boot and go |
| 19:29.22 | ratrace | they still do. it's monitors that are now severely lagging and turning on seconds after the signal is available because they have entire mcro operating systems inside them |
| 19:29.25 | ratrace | greycat: ^ |
| 19:29.29 | hiya | Omg with F7 it gives me boot device option + enter setup :) |
| 19:29.32 | hiya | Got it |
| 19:29.51 | ratrace | like this AOC piece of crap I have. takes literally 5 seconds for it to detect signal and display it. |
| 19:30.48 | ratrace | annoying given that I often switch between VM GPUs and each has its own physical cable to the monitor. |
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| 19:30.53 | neilthereildeil | hey guys |
| 19:31.01 | neilthereildeil | im still having trouble installing mongodb |
| 19:31.05 | ratrace | of course. |
| 19:31.09 | neilthereildeil | https://paste.debian.net/1163310/ |
| 19:31.13 | neilthereildeil | still the same error |
| 19:31.17 | neilthereildeil | even after i imported the key |
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| 19:31.31 | flayer | i don't think this screen is very complex and it takes 5 seconds from power to display |
| 19:31.41 | neilthereildeil | is there a way i can search their repo for correctly signed packages? |
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| 19:31.44 | ratrace | neilthereildeil: you should really talk to mongodb people. that softawre is no longer supported by debian. third party repos aren't either. |
| 19:31.58 | neilthereildeil | hmm nobody in that channel responds :( |
| 19:32.02 | ratrace | well bummer. |
| 19:32.19 | hiya | Isn't f7 a bit odd? |
| 19:32.30 | ratrace | they have forums, discords, twatters, whatever the fancy new kids use these days. |
| 19:33.02 | greycat | F7 is probably some limited "boot device selection" menu rather than the full firmware menu |
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| 19:35.02 | echelon | hi, i'm trying to install debian on an lvm, but how do i disable the creation of the swap partition? |
| 19:36.44 | fireba11 | echelon: that's actually not easy and not recommended to completely disable swap |
| 19:37.17 | echelon | it's for a vm |
| 19:37.45 | fireba11 | echelon: still not a good idea. you can keep it small, bit disabling can cause issues down the road |
| 19:37.57 | echelon | ok, thanks |
| 19:38.07 | Aurora_v_kosmose | ymmv |
| 19:38.28 | ratrace | https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/NoSwapConsequence |
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| 19:38.37 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Swap tends to be slow-enough as to be functional indistinguishable from a crashed VM from teh outside |
| 19:38.46 | Aurora_v_kosmose | *functionally |
| 19:40.27 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Essentially, if you're so ram-pressured you go into swapping hell, you are in swapping hell. |
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| 19:43.13 | Aurora_v_kosmose | For an easy example, make a VM with one 728MB of RAM, however much Swap you want, install Firefox, and attempt to watch a video. |
| 19:43.46 | Aurora_v_kosmose | It will lockup. |
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| 19:44.50 | fireba11 | jup, usually you got your swap troughput in monitoring and if it's above 0 outside or reboots you got a problem :-D |
| 19:45.06 | ratrace | sure but linux without swap is gonna go crazy in memory pressure situations. more info at the link above |
| 19:45.35 | fireba11 | so make 512m or 1g swap just to have some ;-) |
| 19:46.28 | Aurora_v_kosmose | ratrace: My thought is mostly that if you ever approach such a situation even with swap, you'll just lockup for a different reason. |
| 19:46.31 | greycat | A better question would be, why on earth are you trying to view videos in firefox in a 728 MB "RAM" virtual machine? |
| 19:46.46 | Aurora_v_kosmose | greycat: Artifical test of what happens when you don't have enough RAM. |
| 19:46.58 | Aurora_v_kosmose | greycat: It was my easiest-to-reproduce one which came to mind. |
| 19:47.32 | ratrace | no need for VM. just install gnome and chrome. :) |
| 19:47.48 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Heh, on my older laptop that'd probably have been true. |
| 19:47.56 | ratrace | "Oh you got 16GB of RAM? Haha. Holy our beer." ChromeGnome |
| 19:48.03 | ratrace | *hold |
| 19:48.05 | Aurora_v_kosmose | oof |
| 19:48.24 | sney | could have said "make a VM with 728MB of RAM, host a website written in java, then visit it from 1 client machine" but then the java people would start yelling about how that only sucks with bad programmers |
| 19:48.33 | Aurora_v_kosmose | lol |
| 19:49.07 | ratrace | sney: I'd love to argue against, but I can't, all I need is to look at my PyCharm memory usage :) |
| 19:49.12 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Joking aside, the runtime used makes a difference. |
| 19:49.13 | greycat | to be fair, I've got firefox and chrome open, and chrome has a youtube tab open (but not playing a video currently), among other things, and I still have a couple gigs of "free" memory out of 12 GB total |
| 19:49.22 | Aurora_v_kosmose | graalvm vs openjdk |
| 19:50.17 | Aurora_v_kosmose | So yeah, my thought is that if you're nearing a situation where lack of swap might make your system misbehave, you're also dangerously close to the point where swap won't help either. |
| 19:50.20 | neilthereildeil | would i need swap on a linux xen host with 256gb ram? |
| 19:50.31 | *** part/#debian diogenes_ (~diogenes_@188.208.123.74) |
| 19:50.59 | neilthereildeil | but only 4 gm reserved for host? |
| 19:51.00 | fireba11 | neilthereildeil: technically no, but set 1-4gb anyway since 0 is an issue |
| 19:51.04 | neilthereildeil | gb |
| 19:51.35 | neilthereildeil | fireba11: ya thats exactly what i did |
| 19:51.48 | Aurora_v_kosmose | This one I do not know for sure but suspect, but wouldn't a swap partition on an SSD also cause issues such as premature degradation? |
| 19:51.54 | neilthereildeil | 252 gb for virt machines, 4 for host |
| 19:52.21 | neilthereildeil | its a server |
| 19:52.30 | neilthereildeil | no user interaction |
| 19:52.44 | neilthereildeil | and if i have to swap out, id rather error |
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| 19:53.18 | Aurora_v_kosmose | That's my reasoning behind most of my own servers not being granted swap. Since any lockup means I messed up. |
| 19:53.55 | greycat | A small amount of swap lets you optimize by paging out the never- or rarely-used services, freeing a bit more RAM for file cache. |
| 19:54.20 | ratrace | Aurora_v_kosmose: it wouldn't |
| 19:54.40 | neilthereildeil | id prefer to keep it resident'so i might give host 8g |
| 19:54.43 | neilthereildeil | but not swap |
| 19:54.53 | neilthereildeil | i think this is for more advanced users |
| 19:54.58 | neilthereildeil | to configure without swap |
| 19:55.01 | Aurora_v_kosmose | ratrace: No degradation? |
| 19:55.08 | ratrace | that's a common myth. So let me tell you an anecdote: I ran gentoo on an SSD for 5 years. gentoo builds prorgams. every update, it has to write out, compile, rewrite, delete, A LOT of IO. after 5 years, you kow how many TB it had written? |
| 19:55.32 | ratrace | barely 10TB. rated for 30TBW. after 5 years. and still going strong, I've put it to host windows VM games |
| 19:55.53 | ratrace | you know what's the WORST io cause on your regular desktop? it's quite non-intuitive, until you look. |
| 19:56.09 | ratrace | the browser. each page you open it writes ALL the data on disk cache. all js, all css, all images, all html, all everything. |
| 19:56.27 | ratrace | so much so that browsing alone would cause several GB _daily_ for the frstrim service. |
| 19:56.36 | ratrace | and I watch a lot of Netflix so all those vids are cached on disk as well.... |
| 19:56.52 | Aurora_v_kosmose | I did notice that, and I've considered just mounting a tmpfs on my .cache/Mozilla |
| 19:57.11 | Aurora_v_kosmose | s/M/m/ |
| 19:57.33 | ratrace | don't bother, if you're worried about SSD wear. it's trivial for modern SSDs rated at 100+ TBW. |
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| 19:58.30 | ratrace | that's TON of output. in typical 5 year warranty scenarios, 100 TBW is ~50GB written per day, for 5 years. |
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| 19:58.45 | Aurora_v_kosmose | So the idea would be assign swap and set swappiness to never use swap unless imminent OOM? |
| 19:58.58 | ratrace | I keep default swappiness of 60. no issues |
| 19:59.11 | ratrace | in fact, more agressive swap out is better for RAM. it'll page out sooner |
| 20:00.36 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Wouldn't that result in a lot of writes if you were to stream HD video on a semi-constant basis? |
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| 20:01.15 | ratrace | Aurora_v_kosmose: yes, fstrim.service reports several GB cleaned up per day |
| 20:01.47 | ratrace | *reported, I meanwhile migrated the workstation to a pair of rust spinners, and I'll be putting it back on SSDs tomorrow actually. |
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| 20:02.21 | ratrace | Aurora_v_kosmose: but my point is even with THAT.... after 5 years the SSD reported ~10TBW, which is nothing, they're typically 100TBW |
| 20:02.34 | ratrace | well, samsung evo 860 is at least. 300TBW if I'm not mistaken |
| 20:02.52 | yanmaani | Aurora_v_kosmose: Maybe look into zswap |
| 20:03.00 | yanmaani | but that's stupid. If you set no swap, then they'll do thrashing instead |
| 20:03.02 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Hm... I suppose 100TBW might be okay for a laptop. I'd probably go for the 300TBW for SLOG though. |
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| 20:03.28 | ratrace | Aurora_v_kosmose: 100TB is ~50GB per day, 365 days for 5 years. you ahve that much write IO? |
| 20:03.43 | yanmaani | if they start thrashing, you will see libc paged in and out |
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| 20:03.57 | yanmaani | if you have swap, it can take the least useful parts of ram and hide those away on disk, and then use the ram for disk cache instead |
| 20:04.03 | yanmaani | which is gonna improve IO performance |
| 20:04.13 | Aurora_v_kosmose | ratrace: That much read yes, write... well, if everything put into RAM goes through swap before finally being discarded entirely... |
| 20:04.21 | ratrace | zswap (and zram as I've learned recently) will page out to disk after set treshold |
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| 20:04.41 | ratrace | Aurora_v_kosmose: it shouldn't unless you're under very much memory pressure |
| 20:04.45 | yanmaani | ratrace: zram just creates a block device |
| 20:04.54 | ratrace | yanmaani: yes, and it can page out to disk backed device |
| 20:05.00 | yanmaani | it doesn't page out to swap if there's not any set up |
| 20:05.03 | yanmaani | well yes, that's true |
| 20:05.08 | ratrace | something I learned just recently, I thought zram was only in-RAM |
| 20:05.17 | yanmaani | It can be. It is for me. |
| 20:05.34 | ratrace | so swap on zram ain't such a bad idea |
| 20:05.42 | ratrace | (contrary to what I thought) |
| 20:06.07 | yanmaani | what I'm curious about is the compression algos |
| 20:06.16 | yanmaani | would it make sense to use some really heavy one, for instance |
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| 20:08.40 | ratrace | I heard zstd compresses quite well in zram on newer kernels |
| 20:08.58 | ratrace | one could get 2-3x of unused pages saved up by compression alone |
| 20:09.31 | ratrace | depends on what's in the pages really. executable code, jpeg image data (uncompressible), text (very much compressible), ... |
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| 20:13.14 | ikus060 | On my personal lapatop, I see a bunch od UDP packet send to various IP, port 8888, data len=1 I'm wondering how I could find which application is sending those |
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| 20:13.54 | sney | with ss -p, probably |
| 20:14.20 | sney | you can look at 'man ss' to filter it more, or pipe through grep |
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| 20:15.58 | oxek | I just realized I don't have a tool to take a screenshots. What tools are available in debian for that, and which one do you recommend? |
| 20:16.26 | yanmaani | oxek: xfce4-screenshooter |
| 20:16.28 | ratrace | oxek: scrot, or if you're using big DEs, they have their own |
| 20:16.30 | yanmaani | or scrot |
| 20:16.52 | ratrace | ikus060: _from_ port 8888, or TO port 8888? |
| 20:18.37 | oxek | scrot looks exactly like what I was looking for |
| 20:18.49 | oxek | (and I did not realize I already had xfce4-screenshotter) |
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| 20:32.32 | somiaj | oxek: scrot is nice, though you can use xwd directly, though often need to then convert the resulting raw file with imagemagick |
| 20:34.13 | somiaj | xwd is part of x11-apps, which is often installed (though noticing it doesn't seem installed by default anymore on my recent system) |
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| 20:35.05 | sney | I used to use imagemagick for it with the 'import' tool, but then DEs started including something that would launch automatically when I hit printscreen and I never went back |
| 20:35.11 | sney | I don't even know what the one I use now is called |
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| 20:40.02 | somiaj | I have a bunch of scripts xwd | convert, didn't know import in imagemagick woudl do that |
| 20:40.48 | somiaj | but scrot is just way easier to use from a command line |
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| 20:41.29 | sney | yeah, it's basically the same as scrot. 'import -window root filename.png' and I just aliased it to something quick |
| 20:42.02 | sney | apparently the kde one I use now is called 'spectacle'. I had no idea. |
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| 20:45.09 | jmcnaught | On GNOME PrtScr leaves a PNG of the desktop with a timestamp in the filename in ~/Pictures, and Alt-PrtScr captures only the active window. |
| 20:46.31 | LtL | jmcnaught: it always has done that. |
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| 21:08.31 | HelloShitty | evenning |
| 21:09.12 | ham5urg | Is there a possibility to check the power used by my laptop? I mean the total consumption of battery loading and running the laptop. |
| 21:09.24 | HelloShitty | Can er scroll up in those text mode terminals? |
| 21:09.38 | ratrace | HelloShitty: shift+pageUp ? |
| 21:09.40 | ham5urg | Some cat /proc/... ? |
| 21:09.40 | HelloShitty | and how do I open a new terminal and swithc between them? |
| 21:10.02 | HelloShitty | thanks ratrace |
| 21:10.03 | ratrace | ham5urg: should be possible via acpi, somewhre, something. and if you're using a big DE, maybe there's a widget |
| 21:10.25 | wigums | ham5urg check out powertop |
| 21:10.31 | ratrace | HelloShitty: I'm assuming you're talking about console, you can switch betewen them with F keys |
| 21:10.40 | ratrace | HelloShitty: Alt+Fx |
| 21:10.50 | ratrace | where x is teh number of the tty you want |
| 21:11.26 | HelloShitty | so they are already there?? I only need to swtich between them or I have to explicitely "open" a new tty? |
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| 21:15.58 | ratrace | HelloShitty: they're open automatically by a systemd service when you switch to one |
| 21:16.58 | HelloShitty | oki, ty |
| 21:17.22 | greycat | By default, you get 6 that'll spawn a getty automatically (Ctrl-Alt-F1 through -F6). |
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| 21:20.16 | HelloShitty | thanks |
| 21:20.31 | HelloShitty | ahh, one more question |
| 21:20.46 | HelloShitty | Is it possible to check which is the one in use? |
| 21:21.03 | greycat | if you're in a shell, type "tty" |
| 21:21.10 | HelloShitty | oki |
| 21:21.18 | HelloShitty | nice |
| 21:21.20 | HelloShitty | thank you |
| 21:21.56 | oxek | greycat: for some reason, gnome (gdm3) puts the desktop environment sessian in Ctrl-Alt-F1 |
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| 21:22.15 | oxek | made me very confused when I had to use gnome |
| 21:22.20 | greycat | well, installing gnome changes the behavior of the system, so you're no longer getting defaults |
| 21:22.33 | greycat | if you're in a GUI session, it's almost always on either 1 or 7 |
| 21:22.55 | oxek | hmm, now I have to look up what actually sets up this 1..7 |
| 21:23.10 | oxek | probably some x server config, right? |
| 21:23.11 | ratrace | iirc, gdm was in 1, desktop session was in 7 |
| 21:23.21 | ratrace | oxek: no, gdm.service |
| 21:23.38 | oxek | ratrace: that's if gnome exists, but what is the default thing that does it? |
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| 21:25.07 | ratrace | oxek: default is first available terminal, for Xorg. so whatever spawns xorg defines the tty usdd |
| 21:25.10 | ratrace | *used |
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| 21:26.48 | somiaj | It might depend on the display manager, though tty7 is often the location. |
| 21:26.58 | ratrace | and before systemd... I think it was inittab that would specify this, but that was used by a xorg-spawning service, xinit or startx, can't remember now |
| 21:27.46 | somiaj | One thing I do like about systemd doing this is that startx takes over the tty it runs on (and not launch on an open one) |
| 21:27.47 | greycat | before stretch, startx from tty1 would create the X session on tty7 (usually)... but nowadays, startx from tty1 starts the X session in tty1, and you can't access the underlying console |
| 21:28.06 | greycat | so, as I said, it's usually either 1 or 7. just try both. |
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| 22:47.07 | nan` | what does "default" mean in the 'distribution' field of a sources.list entry? I tried to find it documented and i couldn't. The first place i saw it used was in element's (formerly riot's) install instructions for linux desktop |
| 22:47.40 | nan` | i guess i'm wondering should i really use that and what happens during a system upgrade |
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| 22:48.35 | sney | where do you see default? |
| 22:48.59 | nan` | https://element.io/get-started click "Also available on linux" and look at the popup |
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| 22:49.30 | sney | oh, that's just element giving an arbitrary name to their suite |
| 22:49.53 | sney | 3rd parties can use whatever names they want, it won't affect your other sources |
| 22:50.25 | nan` | oh... i guess i didn't see that is real folder. Why would someone do that exactly? |
| 22:51.15 | sney | probably if they don't need to build separate binaries for every stretch buster focal xenial etc. variant, they can just put everything in one dir |
| 22:51.47 | virgohg | kissed goodbye to windoze and switched to debian - one of the best decisions of mine on computing :) |
| 22:52.08 | virgohg | much less lag |
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| 22:52.22 | nan` | sney: oh i guess that makes sense. |
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| 22:52.50 | nan` | sney: so they must pick a platform to prepare it on and all the runtime deps are there on each version? And they test it on each platform then? |
| 22:53.54 | sney | nan`: hahaha I doubt they test it on every platform. probably just one or two amd64 ubuntu vms if you're lucky. but I suspect it's one of those electron embedded browser apps where the .deb is just a wrapper for a self-updating self-contained beast |
| 22:55.51 | nan` | sney: thanks for all your help |
| 22:55.56 | sney | np |
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| 22:56.23 | virgohg | oh no, not the electron... yet another needless mithosis of chromium! a "hello world!" example shouldn't take ~200M of disk space |
| 22:58.22 | virgohg | someone should make it into a runtime, so you won't need to copy chromium libraries over and over again. just update the app's files. is that something too much to ask for? |
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| 23:00.03 | sney | well, the whole "point" of them is that you don't need to do that, so it's unlikely. besides, well-meaning programmers have been using up all the memory with "universal runtimes" so that wouldn't really solve anything either. |
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| 23:00.32 | sney | hm, insert a "for decades" in that last part somewhere |
| 23:02.56 | virgohg | but, electron apps would give niklaus wirth ptsd (he had "a plea for lean software") |
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| 23:31.06 | zumba_ad_ | 10.5 is the latest stable right? https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ |
| 23:31.28 | brettgilio | zumba_ad_: Correct |
| 23:31.32 | zumba_ad_ | thank you |
| 23:31.58 | zumba_ad_ | I'm planning to install prometheus package in 10.5 |
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| 23:40.34 | steve_ | 6 hours later, the installation is complete! But it is ridiculously slow to boot. I guess I'll have to try the persistent live USB. Why isn't there a pre-imaged persistent live USB? |
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| 23:41.19 | sney | it's a fairly unusual use case. |
| 23:41.44 | sney | though with ostree gaining popularity, it might become more popular that way |
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| 23:43.48 | steve_ | sney: vaguely familiar with ostree, not at all with capser.. Are you saying ostree instead of casper is becoming popular? Or they are not mutex? |
| 23:45.01 | sney | ostree is a different thing, but it's based around immutable images for linux with only /home being writable, so it's easy to see the live applications there |
| 23:45.28 | sney | I hadn't heard of casper until right now but it looks like it's specifically for portable live systems only. |
| 23:46.20 | sney | (debian doesn't have an ostree release yet. fedora does, and I test drove it a few months ago. it's fine.) |
| 23:46.29 | steve_ | Is there an ostree friendly distro? I've only seen it used for embedded Linux |
| 23:46.41 | steve_ | ^^ |
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