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| 00:13.51 | hmuller | Sora: congrats |
| 00:14.26 | hmuller | where did you find the answer? |
| 00:22.03 | Sora | someone helped me |
| 00:22.04 | Sora | :p |
| 00:23.08 | hmuller | =) |
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| 01:14.13 | b_jonas | hi. I'm listing packages with aptitude, and I'd like to list which ones come from the contrib and non-free sections. I thought that the origin field "%O" would display this, but no, it just says "Debian:10.5/stable [all]" regardless if it's from the main or non-free part. which format can display this? |
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| 01:15.21 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: %s for "section". |
| 01:15.56 | b_jonas | thank you, that works |
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| 01:19.11 | b_jonas | I generally want to install packages from main only, but there are a few exceptions that I want to install from non-free, so I have to add them to the sources.list, but I don't want to accidentally intsall a package from there without knowing, so I need it in the main view |
| 01:20.18 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: there's a vrms package that tells you packages from contrib and non-free that are installed. |
| 01:22.08 | b_jonas | I can also limit the list to !~snon-free !~scontrib if I only want to see the main archives, good |
| 01:23.04 | jmcnaught | or ~smain |
| 01:23.30 | b_jonas | I should probably modify that so it at least displays packages that are already installed or selected for installatoin though |
| 01:25.24 | b_jonas | jmcnaught: oh indeed, ~smain works too |
| 01:26.31 | b_jonas | no wait |
| 01:26.41 | b_jonas | jmcnaught: no, ~smain doesn't work |
| 01:26.54 | b_jonas | sorry, I got confused and thought it works, but actually it doesn't select anything |
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| 01:29.11 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: oh yeah, I wonder why that is? |
| 01:29.45 | b_jonas | hmm, so how do I select all packages that are not purged? |
| 01:30.26 | b_jonas | I want packages that are in a state other than purged to be displayed, even if they're not in main |
| 01:31.19 | b_jonas | jmcnaught: because in that case the section doesn't say "main/", it just says the category |
| 01:31.24 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: ?config-files or ~c selects packages that are removed but not purged |
| 01:31.39 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: yeah I just found the reason in https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#sections |
| 01:31.51 | b_jonas | jmcnaught: no, I want all packages that are installed or in any state besides purged |
| 01:31.53 | jmcnaught | What I thought was a section is actually an area |
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| 01:35.34 | jmcnaught | b_jonas: '~i | ~c' does that do what you want? |
| 01:36.43 | b_jonas | I'm not convinced. aren't there like six different current states that a package can be in? |
| 01:37.13 | b_jonas | it's possible that ( ~i | ~c ) works, but I'd like to be sure |
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| 01:43.31 | jmcnaught | I don't have any u, C, or H flags on any of my packages so I don't know how to test if packages in those states would be selected by ~i but that would be my guess. |
| 01:43.56 | b_jonas | yes, nor do I want to get a package in a broken state to test |
| 01:44.11 | b_jonas | I could uninstall a package without purging to test that at least if I wanted |
| 01:44.17 | b_jonas | well, I'll probably leave this for later |
| 01:44.24 | jmcnaught | well you could test it in a chroot or container or something |
| 01:44.33 | b_jonas | I don't care about it that much |
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| 01:47.52 | b_jonas | I'll just try ( ~i | ~c ) for now, thanks |
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| 01:48.25 | jmcnaught | You're welcome, I learned something out of the deal :) |
| 01:49.29 | b_jonas | and what I learned is that this channel is good for questions about package management itself. obviously it can't help about every software problem on a debian computer, so I'm never sure what questions I should bring here. |
| 01:50.16 | mi11k1 | b_jonas, legit questions |
| 01:50.35 | mi11k1 | anybody familiar with gmediarender? |
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| 01:50.53 | jmcnaught | If it's software in Debian I think you can ask here. Worst that could happen is someone recommends a more specialized channel. |
| 01:51.18 | dvs | puts down the rotten tomatoes |
| 01:51.46 | b_jonas | most of the software that I use is in debian. for many, I already know where to ask. but not for everything. |
| 01:52.20 | mi11k1 | b_jonas, try to do a google search first |
| 01:52.31 | mi11k1 | usually you can get what u need there |
| 01:52.38 | b_jonas | mi11k1: sure |
| 01:52.46 | mi11k1 | if im stumped, i bug ppl heree |
| 01:52.46 | jmcnaught | Google has wrong answers, so does IRC though. |
| 01:53.03 | mi11k1 | if you google, stay away from ubuntu stuff |
| 01:53.19 | mi11k1 | eventually youll find a p[lace where theres valid info |
| 01:53.25 | alex11 | or any old advice in general |
| 01:53.37 | mi11k1 | actually i lied. |
| 01:53.41 | mi11k1 | i guess first |
| 01:53.47 | mi11k1 | and guess and guess |
| 01:53.50 | b_jonas | mi11k1: I have figured that out. like a decade ago, I installed debian, then a few weeks later I deleted it without backups and installed debian, and I haven't looked back ever since. |
| 01:54.15 | mi11k1 | wanna know a secret...i use MX |
| 01:54.21 | mi11k1 | for my desktop |
| 01:54.45 | mi11k1 | when i have mx questions, i ask them here and dont say its mx |
| 01:54.46 | jmcnaught | Before anything I check /usr/share/doc/$package/ especially for a README.Debian. Then man pages. I avoid GNU info pages but will go there if necessary. Then search engines. |
| 01:55.13 | mi11k1 | or kali even |
| 01:55.49 | mi11k1 | so, nobody knows gmediarender? |
| 01:56.54 | b_jonas | jmcnaught: sure, I know all those usual places to check. also, apart from the html or pdf docs in /usr/share/doc/ , man pages, info docs, and online docs, there's one more place to look for docs: a few programs hide their reference documentation in the executable such that you can access them with something like program-name help --verbose then program-name help subcommand-or-doc-section |
| 01:57.24 | mi11k1 | or just guess |
| 01:57.43 | b_jonas | svn does that most notably, for multiple of its programs, it's evil, I should go through and extract all the help pages it has once and concatenate them to a single searchable text file so |
| 01:57.44 | mi11k1 | tab works well |
| 01:57.47 | b_jonas | but so far I was lazy |
| 01:58.21 | derpadmin | b_jonas : or use git? |
| 01:58.34 | mi11k1 | yah git |
| 01:58.41 | mi11k1 | get it from git |
| 01:59.13 | b_jonas | and as for documentation, I added non-free specifically to install some docs that use the options in the GFDL license so they are in the non-free section of debian; though I will probably install a few other packages from outside of main |
| 01:59.17 | derpadmin | huh? I meant, use git instead of svn.. |
| 01:59.42 | mi11k1 | yah, get it from git. lol |
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| 03:27.48 | khobo | hey guys.. i have a borg job scheduled every night at 4am |
| 03:27.57 | khobo | i've forgotten where i've scheduled it though it's not in my crontab file |
| 03:28.01 | khobo | any ideas where i could check? |
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| 03:28.18 | hjarvard | systemd timers? |
| 03:29.16 | khobo | nope doesn't look like it... |
| 03:29.23 | khobo | this is so weird |
| 03:29.46 | dvs | khobo: /var/spool/cron ? |
| 03:29.48 | khobo | two questions a) can borg schedule things internally b) are there local crontab files? |
| 03:30.36 | khobo | or! i know the backup that it runs it's called backup.sh |
| 03:30.46 | khobo | im having a little difficulty in figuring out the correct way to grep that |
| 03:31.00 | khobo | maybe i could just search backup.sh and figure out where the file is coming from |
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| 04:02.46 | genr8_ | i would assume its either a borg daemon that stays running that then launches the task, a systemD service or timer, or the /etc/crontab or /etc/cron.* dirs |
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| 07:23.24 | hegemoOn | moin |
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| 07:51.34 | RadoS | Moin, when booting with 2 notebooks, on A the services are printed/ visible as they are started, on B it only switches the display and shows the fsck/mount status, but no started services progresses is visible. I _guess_ it's still printed, just not visible. How to investigate this further? |
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| 07:52.13 | RadoS | is -> are |
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| 08:11.44 | shad0w_ | debian testing + xfce + picom is so sweet. |
| 08:12.36 | ratrace | RadoS: are you talking about systemd boot output? maybe you have "quiet" in your kernel command line so it's hidden. you can hit when you have post-grub blank screen to show that output, or remove "quiet" from the kernel command line |
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| 08:18.03 | Lope | hey guys I'm trying to enable hugepages for a VM. |
| 08:18.21 | Unit193 | shad0w_: Glad you like it. |
| 08:18.34 | Lope | I added this to my libvirt vm definition: <memoryBacking><hugepages /></memoryBacking> |
| 08:18.48 | ratrace | Lope: you have to reserve them in advance |
| 08:18.55 | Lope | I added this to my kernel boot params: hugepagesz=1G hugepages=26 |
| 08:18.55 | shad0w_ | Unit193: i even switched my MBP to it. |
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| 08:19.02 | shad0w_ | screw apple. |
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| 08:19.31 | genr8_ | when they screw you, screw back. |
| 08:19.32 | Lope | ratrace, when I try start the VM I get: unable to map backing store for guest RAM: Cannot allocate memory |
| 08:19.47 | aderchox22 | Is it possible to preseed the network configurations except only the hostname ? |
| 08:19.50 | shad0w_ | debian is the first distro where suspend works out of the box for me on my MBP |
| 08:19.59 | Lope | ratrace, it seems like there's one more step I might need to take? |
| 08:20.00 | shad0w_ | and i've tried about them all. |
| 08:20.33 | Unit193 | shad0w_: It might be worth mentioning that testing support is on OFTC in #debian-next, though. Heh, amusingly I have suspend issues. :P |
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| 08:20.45 | Lope | ratrace, I see people mentioning hugeadm, but I don't have that nor is it found in the debian repos. |
| 08:20.53 | ratrace | Lope: sure. this is what I do to pre-reserve (12GB) hugepages for my VMs: https://bpa.st/M42Q |
| 08:21.40 | ratrace | Lope: problem with hugepages (esp 1GB ones) is that the kernel needs contiguous memory for them. it's very likely that you might not have it even if you try to reserve few GB less than your total physical RAM |
| 08:22.05 | genr8_ | reboot |
| 08:22.44 | shad0w_ | Unit193: Q1. what does oftc means lol |
| 08:22.44 | ratrace | Lope: hugepages reserved and used like that are _not_ available to your host. also, with qemu-system at least you have to point it to the reserved region, eg. with -m ${MEMORY}G -mem-prealloc -mem-path /dev/hugepages1G (or wherever you mounted them) |
| 08:22.52 | Unit193 | !oftc |
| 08:22.52 | dpkg | OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <freenode>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>. |
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| 08:23.06 | Lope | ratrace, inside /sys/devices/system/node/node0/hugepages/hugepages-1048576kB I've got 26, 26 and 0 for free, nr and surplus. |
| 08:23.08 | shad0w_ | Unit193: Q2. it says you must be invited to join lol |
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| 08:23.30 | ratrace | Lope: if you've got 26 then that's 26 hugepages of 1GB each, ie 26GB |
| 08:23.42 | Lope | ratrace, I see you've got a special user and mountpoint. how does libvirt know how to use it? |
| 08:23.43 | genr8_ | shad0w_, i got in. |
| 08:23.49 | ratrace | Lope: I don't use libvirt |
| 08:23.56 | Unit193 | shad0w_: That's because you tried joining on freenode. :P |
| 08:24.01 | ratrace | Lope: but just add the user VM runs as, into that group |
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| 08:24.11 | ratrace | Lope: don't have to really, this is just one of those privsep things |
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| 08:24.22 | Lope | okay will try that. |
| 08:24.31 | ratrace | (don't have to = you can chown directly as VM being the owner) |
| 08:25.11 | ratrace | Lope: all this si supposed to be automagic on boot if you set appropriate sysctls etc.. but I never got that working, so I run explicit reservation like that paste, in a custom service unit on boot |
| 08:25.51 | Lope | ratrace, what does shm mean in shm-hugetlb? |
| 08:25.51 | ratrace | Lope: you can reserve it and free it back to the host but the biggest problem is fragmentation. once you free it, there's no guarantee there will be enough contiguous RAM to reserve it back |
| 08:26.03 | ratrace | Lope: shared memory, the group name is arbitrary, I made it up |
| 08:26.22 | Lope | okay |
| 08:26.23 | ratrace | Lope: so if you have fragmentation issues, consider using smaller pages like 2MB ones |
| 08:26.42 | ratrace | I prefer 1GB because in theory those should offer best performance with least number of TLB lookups |
| 08:26.43 | genr8_ | the flag is "SHM_HUGETLB" |
| 08:26.56 | ratrace | genr8_: flag? |
| 08:27.02 | Lope | yeah, I've got 32GB RAM and I run VM's with whole numbers of GB of RAM, so I figured 1GB pages seems like a good diea |
| 08:27.04 | genr8_ | extension |
| 08:27.18 | ratrace | genr8_: what extension? I made that group name up |
| 08:27.25 | genr8_ | no you didnt :) |
| 08:27.31 | genr8_ | thats literally what its called in the kernel :) |
| 08:27.33 | ratrace | Lope: it's great idea if you can reserve it in advance. but later you might not be able to |
| 08:28.00 | ratrace | genr8_: okay I mean it's not a system group or anythin ginstalled by packages. I made it up and yes quite possibly subconsciously due to what you say |
| 08:28.01 | jmcnaught | Does using hugepages make a noticeable difference? |
| 08:28.22 | genr8_ | yea, well, it makes perfect sense |
| 08:28.24 | ratrace | jmcnaught: in theory yes, I haven't benchmarked it |
| 08:28.50 | Lope | ratrace, I'm not sure your commands are appropriate for me |
| 08:28.55 | Lope | because I've got /dev/hugepages/libvirt/qemu |
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| 08:29.26 | genr8_ | https://www.linuxhowtos.org/manpages/2/shmget.htm |
| 08:29.30 | ratrace | Lope: then maybe libvirt is already doing all that dance. |
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| 08:30.17 | genr8_ | theres huge, and then theres 1 GB huge. |
| 08:30.30 | bipul | How to install debian on aws using preseed ? |
| 08:30.45 | ratrace | only 2MB and 1GB hugepages are supported on on x86 |
| 08:30.53 | genr8_ | 2MB counts as huge and thats normal by now |
| 08:31.33 | ratrace | I'm using 1GB ones with respect of going for least number of TLB lookups |
| 08:32.15 | Lope | ratrace, amazing, it works! |
| 08:32.18 | genr8_ | we have 5-Level Paging support in the kernel and 10th gen Intel CPUs now. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/x86/x86_64/5level-paging.html |
| 08:32.23 | ratrace | \o/ |
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| 08:32.58 | genr8_ | It bumps the limits to 128 PiB of virtual address space and 4 PiB of physical address space. |
| 08:33.07 | genr8_ | Original x86-64 was limited by 4-level paing to 256 TiB of virtual address space and 64 TiB of physical address space. |
| 08:33.32 | Lope | ratrace, all I did was: mkdir /dev/hugepages1G; mount -t hugetlbfs -o pagesize=1G none /dev/hugepages1G (from your URL, thank you). then I configured hugetlbfs_mount = "/dev/hugepages1G" in qemu.conf. |
| 08:33.33 | genr8_ | very interesting subject if you dive into it actually |
| 08:33.58 | Lope | and obviously the kernel params and xml adjustment. |
| 08:34.11 | ratrace | Lope: right so libvirt does the actual reservation I suppose |
| 08:34.21 | ratrace | Lope: what kernel params, btw? |
| 08:34.46 | Lope | it seems so. In libvirt you can get technical and specify different memory backing areas and sizes on whatever numa nodes you want etc. |
| 08:34.49 | bipul | I have tried using `user data`, i.e to put preseed instruction inside `user data`. but it seems it does not worked out. https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud/AmazonEC2DebianInstaller |
| 08:35.17 | Lope | but I just told libvirt to use hugepages and let it do it auto. I don't have ryzen yet, using haswell, so I'm not worried about numa nodes at this time. |
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| 08:35.32 | ratrace | Lope: haswell here too :) |
| 08:35.36 | genr8_ | numa numa numa yay |
| 08:35.40 | ratrace | omg! |
| 08:35.43 | Lope | ratrace, hugepagesz=1G hugepages=26 |
| 08:36.02 | ratrace | Lope: ah, so same as that echo in my paste but through kernel options directly on boot. |
| 08:36.03 | Lope | got 32GB RAM here. |
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| 08:36.38 | Lope | oh, so you can do it without kernel params? |
| 08:36.43 | Lope | just echoing into that /sys ? |
| 08:36.46 | ratrace | yes |
| 08:36.59 | genr8_ | its better to do it on fresh boot so your address space is not cluttered |
| 08:37.06 | Lope | but surely I would need to start my kernel with hugepagesz=1G at least? |
| 08:37.15 | ratrace | I prefer it dynamically alocated (because I free them pages when the VM exits) |
| 08:37.30 | Lope | ratrace, that's pretty cool, how do you free them? |
| 08:37.37 | ratrace | Lope: echo 0 > .... |
| 08:37.47 | Lope | easy enough, thanks. |
| 08:37.56 | Lope | it seems like a crazy jump 4K 2M or 1G |
| 08:38.09 | Lope | I'd prefer 256MiB pages, or something. |
| 08:38.13 | ratrace | Lope: I think that kernel option is merely to point at which page is hugepages=N referring to. there's really only two sizes on x86: 2MB and 1GB |
| 08:38.35 | ratrace | and both are available on the kernel /sys API regardless of kernel command line options |
| 08:38.40 | Lope | okay |
| 08:38.48 | Lope | I guess there's little boys and big boys. |
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| 08:39.13 | Lope | you gotta decide if you have hair on your chest or not. |
| 08:39.27 | Lope | for my next system I'll get 64GB RAM. |
| 08:39.42 | Lope | I find it crazy that so many laptops are limited to 16G RAM. |
| 08:39.50 | Lope | I can't really function with less than 24G |
| 08:40.06 | genr8_ | more information: https://wiki.debian.org/Hugepages / https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/mm/hugetlbpage.html |
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| 08:40.58 | Lope | I've got a bunch of old laptops, incl an old surface pro with 4GB RAM soldered in. I feel like an idiot for buying it sometimes. But I often find creative uses for it. |
| 08:41.34 | Lope | 4GB is like a DE plus a small ZFS ARC, and nothing else. |
| 08:41.53 | ratrace | would make a good router :) |
| 08:41.58 | Lope | yeah hahahahah |
| 08:42.13 | Lope | a router with a 10" full HD IPS display. |
| 08:42.20 | ratrace | network metrics display! |
| 08:43.02 | Lope | ratrace, can you recommend any network monitors or OS's etc? |
| 08:43.46 | ratrace | I use Munin because I've used it for many many years, but maybe there are better ones now, more modern ones with fancy javascripts graphics instead of images |
| 08:43.57 | ratrace | like something based on graphana |
| 08:44.04 | ratrace | *grafana |
| 08:44.17 | Lope | ok cool, will check it out. My one friend is raving about pfsense. |
| 08:44.22 | ratrace | Prometheus ferinstance. |
| 08:44.37 | ratrace | !info prometheus |
| 08:44.55 | jelly | prometheus and grafana seem nice |
| 08:45.06 | ratrace | what, !info no mas triggering? |
| 08:45.10 | Lope | what do you think are the attack vectors for meltdown and spectre if you're just doing dev in a VM? |
| 08:45.38 | genr8_ | compiling malicious code ? |
| 08:45.40 | Lope | Since JavaScript is mitigated, I mean pretty much all of the software is trusted. |
| 08:45.52 | Lope | I don't compile malicious code :/ |
| 08:46.30 | ratrace | ,v prometheus |
| 08:46.31 | judd | Package: prometheus on amd64 -- stretch: 1.5.2+ds-2+b3; stretch-backports: 2.7.1+ds-3~bpo9+2; buster: 2.7.1+ds-3+b11; bullseye: 2.20.0+ds-1; sid: 2.20.0+ds-1 |
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| 08:46.47 | ratrace | so why does dpkg not see it for !info ..... bah. |
| 08:47.23 | genr8_ | ,i prometheus |
| 08:47.25 | judd | Package prometheus (net, optional) in buster/amd64: Monitoring system and time series database. Version: 2.7.1+ds-3+b11; Size: 10710.1k; Installed: 46663k; Homepage: https://prometheus.io/; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/prometheus |
| 08:47.31 | ratrace | Lope: meltdown and spectre are infoleak vulns. you'd have to be targeted for some juicy info |
| 08:47.44 | ratrace | genr8_: ah judd has that too, mkay |
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| 08:50.55 | ksk | what is !info? :o |
| 08:51.12 | ksk | oh, ",i"? nevermind then. |
| 08:53.33 | ratrace | ksk: !info is dpkg's, ,i is judd's |
| 08:53.37 | ratrace | dpkg: right? |
| 08:53.37 | dpkg | right, (adj): 1) The opposite of left. 2) What cafuego says. |
| 08:53.54 | ratrace | dumbot. |
| 08:54.42 | jmcnaught | For what it's worth I have been gaming in a Windows VM with 16GB of memory without hugepages and without CPU pinning and I don't have any noticeable latency. LatencyMon says my VM is "suitable for handling real-time audio and other tasks without dropouts." |
| 08:56.14 | shad0w_ | Lope: try 8gb soldered on in your laptop lol |
| 08:56.40 | genr8_ | 140737471590400 Sep 19 17:17 /proc/kcore |
| 08:56.47 | genr8_ | what controls my kernel allocating 128TB ? |
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| 08:58.18 | genr8_ | TiB |
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| 08:59.26 | aderchox22 | d-i mirror/country string manual |
| 08:59.37 | aderchox22 | what can I use in place of the manual? US is possible? |
| 09:00.05 | aderchox22 | for preseeding |
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| 09:01.27 | ratrace | jmcnaught: in theory you can only have lower latency, even if it's not noticeable to you, with hugepages. less TLB lookups can't be worse |
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| 09:03.20 | genr8_ | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed |
| 09:04.06 | genr8_ | https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/example-preseed.txt |
| 09:04.35 | genr8_ | en_US |
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| 09:10.47 | aderchox22 | genr8_ yes I'm reading that file. |
| 09:11.23 | aderchox22 | And the line I sent was from there. But it's not explained there what can be in place of the manual ? |
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| 09:13.28 | genr8_ | read the second link. en_US |
| 09:14.23 | aderchox22 | thank you |
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| 09:17.26 | jelly | genr8_, mysterious are the ways of 64bit kernel address space usage |
| 09:18.26 | genr8_ | i tried looking it up, couldnt figure anything out besides "thats how it is" |
| 09:19.37 | genr8_ | the kernel folk probably know but they live in dark basements and only talk to their own kind |
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| 09:20.48 | no_gravity | Good Afternoon |
| 09:20.55 | ratrace | genr8_: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21170795/proc-kcore-file-is-huge |
| 09:21.03 | no_gravity | Hurray, I installed Mobian on my PinePhone and it looks really promising! |
| 09:21.16 | genr8_ | i saw a bunch of funny stackoverflows |
| 09:21.43 | genr8_ | this one was LOL https://askubuntu.com/questions/53731/proc-kcore-very-big |
| 09:22.03 | genr8_ | nothin answers the question though |
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| 09:22.15 | no_gravity | I wonder if I should install ipconfig on it. Or if there is some other tool that tells me my ip. |
| 09:22.29 | genr8_ | "ip a" |
| 09:23.03 | ratrace | genr8_: from what I read it's the limit of 64-bit allocation. it's just virtual memory so it makes sense it's max the size that can possibly be, being virtual |
| 09:23.15 | no_gravity | genr8_: Awesome, thanks! |
| 09:23.19 | ratrace | ie. tuning is not needed and wouldn't make sense |
| 09:23.35 | genr8_ | I dont think it is the limit |
| 09:24.19 | genr8_ | the limit is 256TiB |
| 09:24.43 | genr8_ | 48-bits |
| 09:25.07 | genr8_ | https://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/computer/powers-of-2.htm |
| 09:25.41 | genr8_ | I can only assume they're using the last bit for something else. |
| 09:26.12 | ratrace | genr8_: but linux does 47 bits |
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| 09:26.41 | genr8_ | do we know why ? |
| 09:26.42 | Haohmaru | never underestimate a single bit |
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| 09:27.13 | ratrace | genr8_: "In addition, the AMD specification requires that the most significant 16 bits of any virtual address, bits 48 through 63, must be copies of bit 47 (in a manner akin to sign extension). " from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Virtual_address_space_details |
| 09:27.28 | genr8_ | nice |
| 09:27.31 | ratrace | genr8_: so I guess AMD spec does it |
| 09:27.33 | ksk | from https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/386522/why-does-debian-linux-allow-up-to-128tib-virtual-address-space-per-process-but-j "With one bit to distinguish kernel addresses from userland addresses, that leaves 128TB for a process's address space." |
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| 09:27.44 | ratrace | ksk: ah even better |
| 09:27.57 | genr8_ | cool. im glad i asked now |
| 09:28.02 | genr8_ | even more glad i was answered |
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| 09:33.47 | genr8_ | yep makes perfect sense now |
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| 09:34.20 | oxek | does debian announce future release dates of big software upgrades, such as firefox78esr? I'd like to know when it's coming so that I can prepare. |
| 09:34.48 | aderchox22 | When the graphical installer boot menu appears, press ESC |
| 09:34.54 | aderchox22 | from the Debian's manual |
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| 09:36.20 | aderchox22 | When I press ESC, I get "boot: " and it's ready to type, but when I type auto url=URL the message I get is loading auto: no such file or directory |
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| 09:37.39 | aderchox22 | Entering anything else other than the "auto" gives the same message as well. E.g.: foo url=http://... gives loading foo: no such file or directory.. |
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| 09:40.52 | genr8_ | interesting |
| 09:41.51 | jelly | oxek, firefox-esr is a bit of an exception, so debian has to track upstream ESR because there's basically no other choice |
| 09:42.36 | jelly | you can track upstream cadence for that particular piece of software |
| 09:43.15 | ratrace | there's none for FF ESR 78. yesterday we had a small hunting party here to find out when current ESR will EOL |
| 09:43.22 | jelly | !firefox esr |
| 09:43.23 | dpkg | Iceweasel Extended Support Release, see https://wiki.mozilla.org/Release_Management/Calendar . Since Debian needs to support packages for years (not weeks!) only the ESR versions are uploaded to unstable as developers only upload packages that are suitable for being included in a release. Other versions are at <mozilla.debian.net> and in <experimental>. |
| 09:43.51 | ratrace | so we found some mozilla forum post that _implied_ 68.12 was last, there's no .13 coming, and 78.3 is teh next upgrade really for Stable |
| 09:44.01 | jelly | ratrace, upstream usually upgrades users of their native builds after .2 or .3 of next ESR is out |
| 09:44.16 | ratrace | which landed yesterday in sid so I'm guessing a few days before it's in Stable. |
| 09:44.26 | ratrace | jelly: right, but there's no explicit calendar stating EOL dates |
| 09:44.49 | genr8_ | aderchox22, I found the manual: https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apbs02.en.html#preseed-auto |
| 09:44.50 | ratrace | or no explicit bit of info stating which .minor version is considered EOL for previous major. |
| 09:45.05 | genr8_ | "This is enabled by using the Automated install boot choice, also called auto for some architectures or boot methods. In this section, auto is thus not a parameter, it means selecting that boot choice, and appending the following boot parameters on the boot prompt." |
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| 09:46.23 | genr8_ | it would be the name of the item in the boot menu |
| 09:46.27 | genr8_ | possibly "install" |
| 09:46.49 | genr8_ | if you press tab, you might be able to see what the options are |
| 09:47.36 | aderchox22 | Great thanks, I'll take a look now |
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| 09:47.51 | oxek | ratrace: there's nothing explicit, but it was always implied that when only one esr release it upgraded and not the other, it means the older one is out of support |
| 09:47.57 | oxek | and that has happened now with 78.3esr |
| 09:48.04 | jelly | ratrace, and they broke the previous URL https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/faq/ so I can't find the pretty picture |
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| 09:49.59 | genr8_ | "The auto boot choice is not yet defined on all arches. The same effect may be achieved by simply adding the two parameters auto=true priority=critical to the kernel command line." |
| 09:50.39 | ratrace | oxek: not quite. ESR 78 and 68 overlapped for three minor releases: 78.0 .1 and .2, with 68.10 .11 and .12 corresponding releases |
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| 09:51.15 | ratrace | so there's no explicit info stating "there will be N ovelapping before old ESR EOL's", there's also no explicit statement saying 68.12 is last, etc... |
| 09:51.31 | jelly | no, no there isn't |
| 09:51.40 | genr8_ | what are we gonna do when Mozilla becomes Microsoft |
| 09:51.46 | aderchox22 | genr8_ hitting tab gives language names! E.g., Hungarian, English, etc. Also there's no "install" option to append the auto line after. (of course I did but I got the same error). |
| 09:52.16 | aderchox22 | I don't know how I can add parameters to the kernel command line before installing... [cringe] |
| 09:52.19 | genr8_ | well go into the command line and just add that stuff |
| 09:52.24 | oxek | ratrace: that's what I said. While they overlap they are supported, once only one of them gets upgraded (78.3 but no 68.13), then only the newer one is supported |
| 09:52.29 | jelly | and those values varied a bit in the past, sometimes there were 3 overlapping. sometimes 4, sometimes they cheated and made versions like 52.2.1esr |
| 09:52.42 | ratrace | oxek: okay, but unfortunately that comes with no prior announcement. |
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| 09:53.18 | ratrace | and given it takes days for Debian to Stabilize a package, there's a window, like it is right now, where a particular CVE exists, is known, and we're wide open. |
| 09:53.34 | genr8_ | Its a grub thing, press E or C, or something |
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| 09:53.52 | genr8_ | read the instructions on the bottom |
| 09:54.31 | oxek | i mean, there's no announcement that 80 is no longer supported once 81 is released either - it is assumed that you upgrade to the newer release once your release no longer gets upgrades. |
| 09:55.10 | ratrace | now, if mozilla did something like openssl does, "78.3 coming up, there's high-impact CVEs, there won't be 68.13, heads up!", then distros could do coordinated releases in a timely fashion |
| 09:56.02 | genr8_ | i lost trust in mozilla this year |
| 09:56.07 | aderchox22 | genr8_ you know I've not installed the Debian yet, right? I don't get the Grub yet I guess. I only get a menu which asks me whether I want the Debian Installer, the Debian Graphical installer, or booting up the Debian Live and two other irrelevant options |
| 09:56.10 | ratrace | and debian really has this dumb policy of waiting until old esr expires.... |
| 09:56.24 | genr8_ | aderchox22, that is grub. |
| 09:56.50 | genr8_ | you wanna get into edit the command line of debian installer |
| 09:56.52 | aderchox22 | So nothing is written at the bottom of it, also neither C nor E works. Let me Google for other possible keys. Thanks |
| 09:57.12 | genr8_ | which ISO did you pick to boot ? |
| 09:57.29 | aderchox22 | AMD64-Live-Standard |
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| 09:57.57 | aderchox22 | Buster |
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| 09:58.16 | ratrace | genr8_: me too. laying off 250 people while ceo bonuses are up 400% |
| 09:58.30 | genr8_ | k i booted a VM up |
| 09:58.32 | ratrace | hey that's my money, I donated when you begged me on your download pages! |
| 09:58.51 | aderchox22 | I thought that was Calamares |
| 09:59.07 | aderchox22 | So it's Grub, then -> Calamares |
| 09:59.12 | genr8_ | yes |
| 09:59.15 | genr8_ | aderchox22, highlight the Debian Installer option, then push TAB |
| 09:59.29 | genr8_ | you will see .linux /d-i/vmlinuz initrd=blah |
| 09:59.42 | aderchox22 | yes |
| 09:59.51 | genr8_ | just append auto=true priority=critical and then url=http://yourpeseed.cfg |
| 10:00.00 | genr8_ | then press enter |
| 10:00.06 | aderchox22 | thanks a ton, I'll now. |
| 10:05.42 | genr8_ | note: (ive never actually done a d-i preseed) |
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| 10:06.38 | aderchox22 | You mean you didn't need to or it'll cause problems? I'm using my own preseed file. |
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| 10:09.03 | genr8_ | i meant i have no idea what im actually doing |
| 10:09.49 | genr8_ | i meant i have no idea what im talking about telling you to do* |
| 10:10.05 | aderchox22 | well it's like scripting the installation process. I'm sure you know that LoL |
| 10:10.30 | genr8_ | i know that much |
| 10:10.51 | genr8_ | im saying ive never done it myself |
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| 10:11.25 | aderchox22 | hmm right. My boss is lazy + they need to do a lot of installations, so. |
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| 10:15.34 | aderchox22 | genr8_ everything got installed automatically successfully except I can't login :D |
| 10:15.42 | aderchox22 | Here's a line I have in my preseed.cfg: |
| 10:15.43 | aderchox22 | d-i passwd/user-password-crypted password [crypt(3) hash] |
| 10:15.58 | aderchox22 | Should have I removed that brackets in the end? Are they explanations ? |
| 10:16.31 | aderchox22 | I've left it there, thinking that it's part of that line, but now I can't login with the password "password" :) |
| 10:16.57 | aderchox22 | I neither can with password [crypt(3) hash] |
| 10:17.25 | aderchox22 | I mean with password "password [crypt(3) hash]" |
| 10:18.33 | genr8_ | yes remove the brackets |
| 10:18.50 | genr8_ | wait |
| 10:18.54 | genr8_ | you know what that means right |
| 10:19.12 | genr8_ | You have to HASH the password with the crypt(3) function and put the hash in the file, not the actual password |
| 10:19.40 | genr8_ | the [ ] are for explaining that you dont put those exact words in. |
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| 10:21.18 | genr8_ | since the preseed file is a public file, you dont want the password lying around in it |
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| 10:26.29 | genr8_ | https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.i386/apbs04.html#preseed-account |
| 10:26.38 | genr8_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:27.12 | genr8_ | I guess it does allow plaintext passwords too: |
| 10:27.22 | genr8_ | # Root password, either in clear text |
| 10:27.22 | genr8_ | #d-i passwd/root-password password r00tme |
| 10:27.48 | genr8_ | wait |
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| 10:28.04 | genr8_ | # Normal user's password, either in clear text |
| 10:28.04 | genr8_ | #d-i passwd/user-password password insecure |
| 10:28.04 | genr8_ | #d-i passwd/user-password-again password insecure |
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| 10:28.37 | genr8_ | if you want plaintext instead of crypted, you need to use Both of those 2 lines instead of the d-i passwd/user-password-crypted password [crypt(3) hash] |
| 10:29.14 | genr8_ | I would advise crypted. |
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| 10:47.11 | aderchox22 | genr8_ You're so helpful. Thank you. |
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| 10:49.04 | aderchox22 | Does that (3) mean it can be looked up in man 3 ? |
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| 10:52.10 | genr8_ | yes. but it doesnt need to be looked up. generate a SHA-512 based crypt(3) hash for a password: mkpasswd -m sha-512 |
| 10:52.58 | genr8_ | man 3 are the dev man pages and my install doesnt have them at least, i checked that |
| 10:53.00 | aderchox22 | Right thank you. |
| 10:53.38 | aderchox22 | Mine has it but it's "programmingly", the cli way (mkpasswd) is easier. |
| 10:54.17 | genr8_ | its a C function and that program implements it. it also specifies that POSIX doesnt require a specific hash algorithm, it just has to be agreed upon. SHA-512 in this case. |
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| 10:55.04 | aderchox22 | May I ask you how you search Debian Manuals? You use special Google/DDG/etc. keywords? |
| 10:55.31 | genr8_ | i just typed in man 3 crypt into DDG and found whatever looked like it |
| 10:55.47 | aderchox22 | hmm nice :) |
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| 11:10.15 | sponix2ipfw | genr8_: so did your new kernel end up much lighter and faster? |
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| 11:12.38 | genr8_ | Yes, by about half |
| 11:12.48 | genr8_ | Though i wasnt doing it for that reason |
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| 11:13.35 | sponix2ipfw | genr8_: doing it for security? |
| 11:14.16 | genr8_ | im still investigating kernel stuff as we speak. I did all the work on 4.19.132 cause thats what comes from Buster Apt-get. then 2 days ago, I found out that 4.19.146 came out on the debian dev gitlab. Now Yesterday 147 came out on kernel.org |
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| 11:17.35 | sponix2ipfw | Yeah... If you are trying to keep up with the latest kernel you will be compiling about every 3 to 5 days |
| 11:18.43 | jelly | clearly you need to set up automated builds |
| 11:18.46 | genr8_ | thats a bit much, but i might try to see how long I can keep the same tree going |
| 11:18.55 | jelly | and smoke test it in a VM |
| 11:19.23 | genr8_ | im running a VM, but its a poor replacement for a real machine |
| 11:19.32 | sponix2ipfw | Good idea |
| 11:20.14 | genr8_ | most of the config options and modules i picked to disable are hardware specific |
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| 11:22.44 | genr8_ | Im trying to figure out a better way to edit these config files. I kinda just winged it, taking the 200KB /boot/config-4.19.0-10-amd64 and starting with that, and turning it into a 130KB result |
| 11:23.45 | genr8_ | but the way debian has their config files set up, its actually 3 individual files when the build is being done |
| 11:23.58 | jelly | times the number of flavors... |
| 11:24.10 | ratrace | genr8_: using menuconfig? |
| 11:24.19 | genr8_ | yes |
| 11:24.32 | genr8_ | jelly, yes. but for now im only focusing on 1 flavor. i disabled everything else |
| 11:24.47 | genr8_ | it was wasting a ton of time building cloud, rt, debug variants |
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| 11:25.49 | genr8_ | I do use menuconfig, But menuconfig operates on 1 file at a time. I want Diff'ing and A/B'ing, and not having to press "Help"/Escape everytime i want to read the documentation on the item |
| 11:26.52 | genr8_ | the 3 .config files debian uses are KCONFIG='debian/config/config debian/config/kernelarch-x86/config debian/config/amd64/config' |
| 11:27.22 | genr8_ | 172K, 40K and 4K respectively |
| 11:27.27 | genr8_ | and they have overlap |
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| 11:28.31 | jelly | presumably the last one wins? |
| 11:28.53 | genr8_ | i believe so. (forgot what i read) |
| 11:29.24 | genr8_ | so those last 2 are important architectural options, but thats kinda what im changing. |
| 11:30.22 | genr8_ | so only changing the first one means stuff will just get overrode. and waiting for them all to combine, and then editing it, .... somehow doesnt feel right. |
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| 11:31.59 | genr8_ | I want a better "menuconfig" kernel utility that knows how to operate on multiple files, and has 2 identical sections A / B and knows how to diff, and also takes in the documentation blurbs from the source tree |
| 11:32.37 | genr8_ | otherwise doing everything manually is gonna suck. its too tedious. |
| 11:33.20 | genr8_ | I wanna be precise about this and come up with "patch" files that have comments for everything I did like "I Disabled this option and heres why" |
| 11:35.09 | genr8_ | We need a better "menuconfig" in 2020 |
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| 11:42.22 | epitamizor | if it works dont fix it |
| 11:43.11 | genr8_ | it works but the workflow is terrible |
| 11:45.54 | genr8_ | the build scripts are another story. those are held together with spit and duct tape |
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| 11:48.21 | genr8_ | I would document what I figured out, but im sure it would change before anyone cared enough to find it and be helped by me deciphering which script calls which build target and when it deletes a directory and why stuff is being built without asking for it, and what command options to use and env variables to set |
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| 11:50.59 | genr8_ | I was basically told "just run make deb-pkg" And of course that failed immediately due to patches. then I figured out theres a "dpkg-buildpackage" perl script that knows how to run in the kernel. That also failed halfway through. Then I re-ran that script and it deleted my entire "build/" directory and erased all my progress of the last 8 hours. (then i found out theres a -nc "no pre-clean") command |
| 11:52.34 | genr8_ | not to mention all the scripts just build a ton of extra stuff like Docs, Headers, Debug tools, re-packaging up the source tree (in a single-threaded xz instance - actually I might submit a patch for that first) |
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| 11:55.36 | genr8_ | oh and speaking of multi-threaded, the Debian Kernel Handbook manual lists commands that only build in single thread mode, and telling it to run in parallel was not so simple |
| 11:56.22 | epitamizor | just need to edit make's build options config file |
| 11:56.56 | genr8_ | it has provisions for that, its just not explained how to use them |
| 11:58.05 | genr8_ | and if you do the obvious thought and run with "-j6" from your initial "debian/rules.gen" command, the different makefile steps end up stepping on itself and sends itself repeating into an infinite loop on the checking modules and trimming unused kernel symbols step. |
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| 11:59.55 | genr8_ | i havent figured out the exact cause of why yet, I presume the next make job launched deletes the progress of the job before it before it can complete |
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| 12:01.29 | RadoS | ratrace, whatever is responsible for printing things like "starting ssh deamon...", I guess it is systemd. I'll have a look if the 2 systems have different boot params despite being installed the same way. |
| 12:01.47 | genr8_ | it DOES work if you do everything in the exact order the scripts want, all at once, but the process is so long that I had no choice but to start customizing build scripts I didnt understand |
| 12:01.57 | ratrace | RadoS: that'd be systemd, yes. |
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| 12:04.01 | genr8_ | Its made doubly confusing because theres the kernel makefiles we all know and love (make menuconfig, make vmlinux, make modules) , and then theres the debian scripts Which are just ridiculous imo |
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| 12:05.09 | genr8_ | and the documentation does NOT cut it |
| 12:09.42 | genr8_ | i'd consider myself an advanced user in other ways, and I know how to use the kernel makefiles, but with the debian ones combined, its been 4 days so far, and ive only built 3 kernels. |
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| 12:13.10 | genr8_ | the learning curve is made worse because of CPU intensive long tasks, and build progress getting deleted, or sequences of makefile steps that only work if you run all of them in order |
| 12:13.20 | jelly | genr8_, if you can document things a bit perhaps we can write a simpler howto to put on wiki.d.o |
| 12:13.42 | jelly | (and by we I mean mostly you) |
| 12:15.45 | genr8_ | Ill consider it, but why does it have to be me? Ive been in this situation before, and my suggestions were denied for official release because "Oh you did that wrong, you just have to do this other thing we didnt mention instead". |
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| 12:17.53 | genr8_ | I will write my findings, but if ive only been at this 4 days, theres a good chance I picked the bumpiest road to victory |
| 12:18.56 | ratrace | but the spoils are that much sweeter! |
| 12:19.48 | genr8_ | a lot of the "findings" were just "Investigate which scripts are being run, examine the command lines, the Env variables, and the parameters. Figure out the order things are being run, which build step touches which directory" kinda thing |
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| 12:22.13 | genr8_ | That should be documented better, but these things were clearly made by smarter people than me, they just put all the work into making the scripts work rather than documenting why |
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| 12:24.29 | genr8_ | and if nobody can figure out how they work, its gonna be doomed to die from technical debt |
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| 12:25.54 | genr8_ | and "let the kernel maintainers take care of that" doesnt cut it. <-- like what, 100 people in the world and maybe 20 active? |
| 12:26.21 | genr8_ | (for debian) |
| 12:26.27 | epitamizor | there is only one maintainer |
| 12:26.51 | epitamizor | the architect |
| 12:27.03 | genr8_ | well |
| 12:27.10 | genr8_ | even he has help |
| 12:27.49 | genr8_ | I would rather not go that far upstream. people get really weird and arrogant about suggesting fixes. |
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| 12:28.23 | hwm4rgs | retroactively aborted etc |
| 12:28.33 | epitamizor | from the womb? |
| 12:28.49 | genr8_ | the linux kernel as a whole is mostly fine without me, I could help with the Debian side of things though |
| 12:29.43 | hwm4rgs | epitamizor: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 |
| 12:30.08 | epitamizor | try working on a project for years then have some newbie tell you your project is failing |
| 12:30.27 | hwm4rgs | not an excuse for that kind of behaviour. |
| 12:30.43 | genr8_ | of course I can anticipate they're gonna say "just use our kernel, our only job is for us to make the kernel for YOU. It works fine. If you wanna make your own kernel you're on your own" |
| 12:31.24 | genr8_ | LOL thats pretty bad even for him |
| 12:31.37 | genr8_ | no wonder we ended up with a Code of Conduct |
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| 12:33.08 | genr8_ | I would definitely be found guilty of violating it myself sooner or later. im drawing too much attention already |
| 12:38.02 | genr8_ | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Linux_kernel_map.png |
| 12:39.47 | genr8_ | im a big fan of map diagrams to explain stuff |
| 12:41.19 | epitamizor | the chinese use hyroglyphs to explain stuff, its a form of communication |
| 12:41.37 | genr8_ | pictographs lol |
| 12:41.44 | genr8_ | egyptians used hieroglyphs :p |
| 12:42.22 | genr8_ | doh. im technically wrong. chinese are called "logograms" |
| 12:42.24 | epitamizor | guess that's easier then fist pounding |
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| 12:44.18 | genr8_ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classification |
| 12:45.18 | genr8_ | why do I feel like I have more chance of learning the linux kernel than chinese. but 1 billion people know chinese |
| 12:45.32 | hwm4rgs | because you already started learning linux |
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| 12:47.00 | genr8_ | yeah, must be cause I have more ways to relate to it in daily life. |
| 12:49.32 | codedmart | I am a long time arch user. Have used ubuntu here and there over the years but mostly as a server and never for more then a week on my laptop/desktop. I have been on arch because of a craze of wanting the latest and greatest all the time. But I definitely hit bumps here and there. So my main question is how do you use debian which allowing for some of your applications to be at the latest version. Like thunderbird, chromium, firefox, gimp |
| 12:49.32 | codedmart | , etc? Is flatpak the way to go? |
| 12:50.02 | codedmart | I am really considering debian to get a more stable base system, but would still like some of my everyday apps to be newer. |
| 12:50.03 | genr8_ | you can give up on that mentality |
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| 12:50.21 | genr8_ | !sns |
| 12:50.21 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
| 12:50.39 | genr8_ | !backports |
| 12:50.39 | dpkg | A backport is a package from a newer Debian branch, compiled from source for an older branch to avoid dependency and <ABI> complications. http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch02.en.html (2.7.4 and 2.7.10), http://backports.debian.org/ . Ask me about <debian-backports> and <backport caveat>. See also <simple sid backport>. |
| 12:50.53 | fireba11 | lol |
| 12:50.57 | genr8_ | !debian-backports |
| 12:50.57 | dpkg | backports.debian.org (formerly backports.org) is an official repository of <backports> for the current stable (see <buster backports>) and oldstable (<stretch backports>) distributions, prepared by Debian developers. Ask me about <backport caveat> and read http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/. See also <bdo kernel> <bdo mirrors> <bdo contents> <bdo list> <bdo bugs> <bdo xorg> <bdo NEW>. |
| 12:51.03 | codedmart | Nice that is funny. |
| 12:51.07 | ratrace | nothing wrong in wanting or needing _some_ applications to be latest. browsers especially. |
| 12:51.07 | codedmart | I have sns for sure. |
| 12:51.31 | H4ndy | Some softwares also offer their own repository you can use to get specific or newer releases |
| 12:51.46 | genr8_ | ,v firefox-esr |
| 12:51.47 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 68.11.0esr-1; buster-proposed-updates: 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: |
| 12:51.48 | judd | 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; sid: 78.3.0esr-2 |
| 12:51.48 | ratrace | codedmart: you can install snaps if you like snaps. snapd works on debian, albeit you might need to fiddle with PATH to get snap specific binaries in it |
| 12:52.20 | codedmart | H4ndy is that frowned upon or a bad idea? |
| 12:52.39 | codedmart | ratrace I have never used snaps or flatpaks. Is there performance issues with either? |
| 12:52.58 | ratrace | codedmart: only startup times for snap'd applications are somewhat longer |
| 12:53.22 | ratrace | third party repos are generally bad idea unless it's a known well behaving repo, like for example pgdg |
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| 12:53.28 | H4ndy | codedmart: I don't know, don't care. I use it for some server software to get releases directly from the vendor or a well-known packager |
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| 12:55.00 | codedmart | Yeah I guess I should just dive in and see. I do need to let go of the sns a bit though. Even though I have mostly been fine and had good experieces with Arch. I have definitely had some down time or moments of brokeness. |
| 12:55.24 | H4ndy | I don't use Debian on any desktop environments, only headless and packages are a bit easier to handle because there are no graphical dependencies (GUI, window manager, drivers, etc.) that can easily break. So I had 0 problems with external repos so far. |
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| 12:56.08 | codedmart | Really want to try and let that go a bit. And I don't particularly care for ubuntu. Nothing against it, but debian has always seemed like a solid/stable system to run. |
| 12:56.23 | genr8_ | good |
| 12:56.40 | genr8_ | everything you get outside of the debian repos pokes another hole in your machine. sooner or later it may be all holes and you'll say "guess im just gonna reinstall now, just like I do on Windows" |
| 12:57.08 | genr8_ | and i keep having to bring this up. The Arch AUR serves a purpose, but thats technically untrusted code. |
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| 13:00.14 | genr8_ | everything you install with root priveleges is of high risk |
| 13:01.18 | epitamizor | but it needs to run in sandbox |
| 13:01.38 | genr8_ | very few people are doing it correctly |
| 13:01.42 | epitamizor | and policy should restrict malware |
| 13:02.18 | genr8_ | that goes for all OS'es |
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| 13:02.38 | epitamizor | some people dont have any data or monetary risk associated with compromised systems |
| 13:02.56 | genr8_ | some people say that, but they dont realize they do. |
| 13:03.00 | jelly | those people are usually in management |
| 13:03.48 | epitamizor | management is not the same as professional |
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| 13:05.21 | codedmart | How would you sandbox a install/program? |
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| 13:06.07 | codedmart | I have definitely been very trusting of installing anything and everything from the AUR. |
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| 13:11.08 | epitamizor | you need to build it first, then once you extract or do anything with it, it needs to be IN the box |
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| 13:13.52 | epitamizor | http://unixwiz.net/techtips/mirror/chroot-break.html |
| 13:13.56 | genr8_ | its kind of a complex topic |
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| 13:14.12 | ratrace | well the building itself should be isolated |
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| 13:15.02 | genr8_ | see, people dont wanna build their own stuff anymore. they just wanna go to the app store and click |
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| 13:17.04 | genr8_ | "Flatpak and Snap" acts like theyve solved it all <--- all theyve done is remove user agency and your control over what gets run and said "Trust us everythings fine". (Hint: it may or may not be fine) |
| 13:17.09 | ratrace | there's just one giant glaring issue with that chroot break .... it's experimental and useless in real world scenarios |
| 13:17.30 | ratrace | it requries the privileged process that initiates the chroot to break it by messing with directories |
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| 13:17.53 | epitamizor | ofcourse, anything that is documented is not relevant when it comes to security |
| 13:17.55 | ratrace | once chrooted, it's rather very hard to break out without a vuln (and assuming the chrooting process (not chrooted) didn't mess up) |
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| 13:18.28 | cipherize | epitamizor: That's not really true at all. |
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| 13:21.37 | greycat | For reference, in case it hasn't been brought up yet, the Linux man page chroot(2) describes one way to break out of a chroot. |
| 13:22.28 | genr8_ | how do i get man 2 |
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| 13:22.32 | ratrace | greycat: that's the way explained in the link above and requires messing and moving with directories by the privileged, chrooting process |
| 13:22.35 | greycat | manpages-dev package |
| 13:22.45 | epitamizor | unless its a closed box, then its going to be open for exploit |
| 13:23.19 | genr8_ | well its not perfect, but its certainly gonna help. |
| 13:23.43 | ratrace | like.... move the directory with an open fd given to chrooted process, ousside of the chroot. well, duh! you just.... moved..... it...... ousside..... wth..... |
| 13:24.47 | epitamizor | its almost like a cat/mouse game, the cheese will move and the mouse will go find it, but the cat will be in the area sooner or later |
| 13:25.17 | genr8_ | doesnt mean the mouse should give up and shout "HEY IM A MOUSE" |
| 13:25.24 | ratrace | proper security is alwyas defense in depth. no single tool, like chroot, is the one and only tool to use |
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| 13:25.38 | ratrace | chroot, namespace, put a MAC profile on your process, whole shebang. |
| 13:25.43 | genr8_ | yeah its a large topic |
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| 13:26.29 | epitamizor | but the useability becomes issue then |
| 13:26.39 | epitamizor | its not user friendly |
| 13:26.45 | ratrace | security and usability are usually on the opposite side |
| 13:26.50 | epitamizor | the keyrings are heavy |
| 13:27.16 | genr8_ | im looking into stuff the kernel can do. I found a bunch of them. SELinux, AppArmor, Yama, Tomoyo, IMA, EVM, DAC, MAC |
| 13:28.39 | genr8_ | SecComp |
| 13:29.03 | genr8_ | Firejail setuid sandbox |
| 13:29.33 | genr8_ | of course theres the regular stuff too like running in a VM. even Docker could help but maybe not the best thing in the world. |
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| 13:30.20 | genr8_ | I wish it was all handled for us, instead of we're on our own to figure it out it. |
| 13:30.39 | genr8_ | programs these days have forgotten "principle of least privilege" |
| 13:31.04 | genr8_ | and they are abusing that so badly on phones that people forgot its even a thing |
| 13:31.19 | cipherize | By default, VMs/containers have no access to the host/hypervisor. Sounds like least privilege to me in that context. |
| 13:31.38 | genr8_ | yea its good |
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| 13:31.46 | genr8_ | you probably misunderstood me as usual |
| 13:31.52 | cipherize | Then communicate better. |
| 13:32.01 | cipherize | And don't be an ass at every single opportunity. |
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| 13:32.13 | cipherize | :) |
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| 13:33.07 | BadPractice | hey, i want to use my pocket book 632 with calibre. When i pc link my file browser lets me acess the memory but calibre does not recognize the device. I have found a post of the devs that that could be cause from the file browser auto connecting via mtp (which makes it impossible for calibre to do so). Im using a standard Gnome enfironment using X11. Is there a way to temporarely disable mtp device discovery? |
| 13:33.16 | genr8_ | Im sure you're an expert on this, so why dont you tell us what you do. |
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| 13:36.46 | cipherize | BadPractice: You should be able to add a udev rule to tell it to ignore the device, so that MTP is available when calibre tries to connect. |
| 13:37.58 | cipherize | Ignore the device specifically for mtp purposes. |
| 13:39.31 | genr8_ | my point was "least privilege is not handled for us." Doing something extra to protect yourself from rogue programs sending tentacles and tendrils into every back orifice of your computer, should be considered mandatory now. Everyday programs do not deserve to be trusted, I see too many people let them run wild, even on linux. |
| 13:39.41 | BadPractice | cipherize, has been a while till i made a udef rule. A little guidence would be nice |
| 13:40.00 | cipherize | BadPractice: Sure. Can you look at the output of lsusb and find the pocket book? |
| 13:40.16 | genr8_ | "Rules for rules" https://wiki.debian.org/udev |
| 13:40.24 | jelly | genr8_, but that takes resources and energy, and people maybe don't like spending those without a clear goal |
| 13:40.38 | jelly | and it's very hard to say "this system is now 70% more secure" |
| 13:40.49 | BadPractice | cipherize, already on it |
| 13:40.57 | cipherize | jelly: Reject 70% of all login attempts. ;) |
| 13:41.04 | genr8_ | then the devs should have put more effort in to make a less toxic program |
| 13:41.32 | greycat | *plonk* |
| 13:41.33 | jelly | genr8_, will you pay the devs and provide specifications? |
| 13:41.41 | genr8_ | I blame terrible devs and terrible corporations who give 0 shits. the user is bombarded and overwhelmed. duplication of work. |
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| 13:42.43 | genr8_ | I dont even have enough resources to protect myself. But i will provide more information if people care. |
| 13:43.08 | genr8_ | I dont get why I have to be the one. I'm nobody |
| 13:43.12 | jelly | I managed to convince the company where I work to support a security project with hard cash, and then I use their software to make pieces of infra a bit more resilient |
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| 13:43.41 | jelly | genr8_, you're about the same as the other 1000 volunteera who already contribute to debian |
| 13:44.22 | BadPractice | cipherize, Bus 001 Device 022: ID fffe:0001 |
| 13:44.38 | cipherize | That device ID rings as strange to me. |
| 13:45.06 | genr8_ | is that even actually valid ? |
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| 13:45.39 | BadPractice | cipherize, i have no idea... its what i see in lsusb when i pc link the device |
| 13:46.18 | genr8_ | sounds like its not actually an officially listed USB device and they just gave it a messed up placeholder ID |
| 13:46.52 | cipherize | Is there anything else with that ID? |
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| 13:47.55 | BadPractice | cipherize, https://bpa.st/V4QA |
| 13:48.10 | cipherize | Okay, we'll give it a shot. |
| 13:48.22 | cipherize | But if anything goes squirrelly, disable the rule. |
| 13:48.32 | BadPractice | cipherize, am i under attack by the NSA? :( |
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| 13:48.40 | cipherize | Your name IS BadPractice... |
| 13:49.07 | cipherize | echo 'ATTR{idVendor}=="fffe", ATTR{idProduct}=="0001", GOTO="libmtp_rules_end"' > /etc/udev/rules.d/69-libmtp.rules |
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| 13:50.15 | genr8_ | hmm |
| 13:50.18 | cipherize | udevadm control --reload-rules ; udevadm trigger |
| 13:50.30 | cipherize | Been a while since I've messed with udev rules, I THINK that's all right. |
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| 13:51.51 | BadPractice | cipherize, no good |
| 13:51.55 | BadPractice | do i have to restart somehow? |
| 13:52.08 | cipherize | It's possible, if the file browser's already glommed on. |
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| 13:52.30 | genr8_ | sudo udevadm control -R |
| 13:54.06 | BadPractice | nope |
| 13:54.56 | cipherize | That was the best idea that I had. :) |
| 13:54.58 | cipherize | :( |
| 13:57.43 | genr8_ | cipherize, did you realize that the 69 file isnt in that dir ? |
| 13:57.51 | genr8_ | its: /lib/udev/rules.d/69-libmtp.rules |
| 13:58.29 | genr8_ | does the rule have to be in the exact file ? |
| 13:58.50 | genr8_ | the rules in there seem to say: SYMLINK+="libmtp-%k", |
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| 13:59.56 | genr8_ | idk maybe the symlink is required |
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| 13:59.59 | genr8_ | maybe copy the exact pattern it says |
| 14:01.38 | genr8_ | theres an "mtp-detect" command |
| 14:01.51 | BadPractice | im confused :( |
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| 14:07.16 | genr8_ | you can "apt-get install libmtp-runtime" and then run /lib/udev/mtp-probe /sys/DEVPATH $busnum $devnum |
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| 14:10.44 | genr8_ | oh, "mtp-detect" and "mtp-connect" are from the "mtp-tools" package |
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| 14:12.13 | genr8_ | Something just occured to me. Maybe it wasnt MTP to begin with |
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| 14:13.37 | genr8_ | the lsusb listing does say "Mass storage device" maybe its just an SD card |
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| 14:14.35 | ahabchi | Hi, anybody having experience in HP Desjet printing in debian 10.5 buster ? |
| 14:16.35 | genr8_ | i hate CUPS |
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| 14:17.52 | genr8_ | my experience was terrible and I have no answers |
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| 14:18.11 | jelly | ahabchi, more experience than needed to "install hplip, browse to http://localhost:631/, log in with root password, Adminstration -> Add printer ..." ? |
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| 14:18.27 | ahabchi | same for me. Actually CUPS is not working for me |
| 14:18.44 | jelly | genr8_, you are allowed to stay quiet when you have no constructive approaches to suggest for a particular issue |
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| 14:19.02 | ahabchi | when i add the printer to network i could find it using print settings app ut when trying to print the job gets stopped for no reason |
| 14:19.03 | genr8_ | yes youre right |
| 14:19.38 | b1ack0p | hi |
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| 14:19.45 | ahabchi | i used to print with usb but when i upgraded hplip it is no longer working |
| 14:19.54 | b1ack0p | is debian 9.13 still supported? |
| 14:21.08 | jelly | !stretch |
| 14:21.08 | dpkg | Stretch is the codename for the current <oldstable> release, Debian 9, released 2017-06-17. "Stretch" is the rubber octopus in Toy Story 3, see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianStretch . Ask me about <install stretch>, <release notes>, <jessie->stretch>. |
| 14:21.40 | jelly | b1ack0p, not by debian, but Debian LTS supports a subset of packages and architectures |
| 14:21.45 | jelly | !stretch-lts |
| 14:21.45 | dpkg | Security support for Debian 9 "stretch" from the Debian Security Team ended July 6 2020. The <LTS> team will continue to provide limited security support for some architectures and a subset of packages until June 30 2022 (total 5 year life). See https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information |
| 14:21.49 | jelly | there. |
| 14:21.51 | b1ack0p | huh |
| 14:22.01 | b1ack0p | so should i pay for lts? :p |
| 14:22.10 | jelly | if you can, definitely yes |
| 14:22.21 | b1ack0p | nope i cant :p |
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| 14:22.27 | b1ack0p | i am out of money |
| 14:22.31 | jelly | you can however use the packages without paying |
| 14:22.40 | b1ack0p | is it safe to use 9.13? |
| 14:22.55 | b1ack0p | and connect to internet like me at the moment? |
| 14:23.06 | jelly | for desktop use? |
| 14:23.17 | b1ack0p | yup |
| 14:23.24 | jelly | browser builds are lagging behind. |
| 14:23.30 | jelly | ,v firefox-esr |
| 14:23.31 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 68.11.0esr-1; buster-proposed-updates: 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: |
| 14:23.32 | judd | 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; sid: 78.3.0esr-2 |
| 14:23.51 | b1ack0p | yes i noticed that extremely slow |
| 14:24.06 | genr8_ | you dont wanna upgrade ? |
| 14:24.11 | b1ack0p | well it is 20 years old laptop |
| 14:24.25 | b1ack0p | i tried to install deb 10 but failed |
| 14:24.37 | jelly | a 20 year old system won't be able to run modern web anyway |
| 14:24.38 | b1ack0p | best version is 9.13 it seems |
| 14:24.49 | jelly | how much RAM? |
| 14:24.51 | b1ack0p | well just for fun |
| 14:24.54 | b1ack0p | 512mb |
| 14:25.00 | b1ack0p | but it supports up to 1gb |
| 14:25.07 | b1ack0p | but but they are expensive :p |
| 14:25.17 | b1ack0p | and not possible to find easily |
| 14:25.22 | jelly | enough to get a GUI running, probably not enough for firefox or chrome |
| 14:25.32 | b1ack0p | yea i am on xfce now |
| 14:25.34 | jelly | 32bit builds might eat a tiny bit less than 64bit |
| 14:25.36 | b1ack0p | and irssi |
| 14:25.46 | b1ack0p | making search in dukdukgo |
| 14:26.05 | jelly | and giving 2/3 RAM to zram+swap might help things |
| 14:26.15 | b1ack0p | it is amazing to see this machine still running |
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| 14:26.35 | b1ack0p | well debian gave around 500mb swap automatically |
| 14:26.41 | jelly | but it's really... stretching things out |
| 14:26.44 | jelly | not swap to disk |
| 14:26.50 | jelly | swap to zram. |
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| 14:26.58 | Haohmaru | wut's zram? |
| 14:27.02 | jelly | !zram |
| 14:27.09 | Haohmaru | uh-uh |
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| 14:27.18 | b1ack0p | no idea |
| 14:27.22 | jelly | Haohmaru, basically, ram disk with a compression backend |
| 14:27.31 | b1ack0p | dvs: sup :p |
| 14:27.34 | Haohmaru | hm |
| 14:27.38 | jelly | puts about 2-3 pages worth of RAM into 1 page of swap |
| 14:27.43 | dvs | hi |
| 14:28.29 | jelly | if you put 512MB swap on zram on a 512MB RAM machine, you can pretend it has 768-1024MB RAM |
| 14:28.56 | b1ack0p | jelly: how much it is important? |
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| 14:29.32 | jelly | b1ack0p, well that depends on whether you're going to run apps that try to use more than 512MB RAM or not |
| 14:29.58 | b1ack0p | i knew it is ok swap=ram size |
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| 14:32.44 | n4dir | until they stole 3 laptops the other night i had one with 256, one with 512 and one with a Gig of Ram. |
| 14:33.02 | n4dir | As already said: they do work, but a modern web-browser won't (at least its not fun) |
| 14:33.30 | n4dir | In my experience other init systems than systemd seem (!) to work better with such low specs |
| 14:34.00 | n4dir | i haven't seen that much of a difference between xfce4 and window-managers. But of course WM's are slightly better |
| 14:34.05 | b1ack0p | well internet is not necessary on this laptop |
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| 14:34.18 | b1ack0p | just pushing the limits |
| 14:34.31 | n4dir | yeah, just small talk bout my experience. You can do pretty fun stuff with such machines |
| 14:34.53 | n4dir | a pity they stole them. But they sure won't have fun with it ... |
| 14:35.15 | n4dir | the web browser dillo works fine, but not all pages load |
| 14:35.20 | b1ack0p | what models were they? your stolen machines? |
| 14:35.31 | b1ack0p | ah yes dillo is nice tiny browser |
| 14:35.42 | n4dir | one was a thinkpad (256 MB), one i don't know and the 1 Gig was a lenove |
| 14:35.45 | n4dir | ups: lenovo |
| 14:35.51 | b1ack0p | n4dir: what model? |
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| 14:35.56 | n4dir | which sucked from the very beginning. |
| 14:36.04 | b1ack0p | this one also a thinkpad : ibm thinkpad t23 (20 yrs old) |
| 14:36.12 | n4dir | No idea. I just take the hardware i get for free. Else i don't care about hardware |
| 14:36.16 | b1ack0p | one of the legendary models |
| 14:36.28 | n4dir | yeah, like 20 years old. Was pretty solid, besides the minimal Ram |
| 14:37.04 | n4dir | i did even do a bit of audio stuff with the 2 better ones. Including jack, which eats quite a bit |
| 14:37.33 | b1ack0p | i see |
| 14:37.55 | n4dir | ask people who know about such, if my utter feeling that systemd is more ressource intensive than other inits is correct (it probably isn't ...) |
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| 14:38.16 | b1ack0p | n4dir: well it is ok i dont expect much on this laptop |
| 14:38.50 | n4dir | yeah, if it works for you, no need to look into such. I also changed small things, like terminal emulators with little ressource usage (i used st) |
| 14:39.00 | n4dir | but as you said: xfce works just fine too |
| 14:39.45 | b1ack0p | yes running xfce now |
| 14:40.18 | n4dir | fluxbox always works like a charme. And it is pretty intuitive (compared with say openbox) |
| 14:40.34 | hmuller | i like i3wm. going to experiment with sway soon. |
| 14:40.56 | koowgnojeel | I like Openbox @_@ |
| 14:41.17 | JyZyXEL | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:41.35 | hmuller | I used if for a long time and can't remember why I switched |
| 14:41.46 | hmuller | ^^^ openbox |
| 14:42.11 | n4dir | to get it of my chest: after the 3 laptops were gone i decided to put FreeBSD on the iMac (as debian was kinda slow). That went south too, and i can't install anything else anymore. When it rains it seems to pour. Oh my ... |
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| 14:42.26 | koowgnojeel | $ startx |
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| 14:45.38 | koowgnojeel | I love you Deb.Ian. You all have good day. |
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| 14:54.13 | Franciman | Hi |
| 14:54.46 | Franciman | I was thinking about installing debian testing on my pc. I read, though that sometimes there can be delays in security updates |
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| 14:55.07 | Franciman | and sometimes because of the package testing architecture, security updates can be kept from my system for a lot of time |
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| 14:55.18 | Franciman | while this would not be a problem for stable and experimental |
| 14:55.28 | dvs | !debian-next |
| 14:55.28 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 14:55.32 | Franciman | but do you think that it's safe to use debian testing on a proper pc? |
| 14:55.37 | Franciman | oh DRAT |
| 14:55.42 | Franciman | thanks dvs |
| 14:55.46 | dvs | np |
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| 15:16.02 | khobo | what's the go to FTP server for debian? |
| 15:16.10 | khobo | VSFTPD? |
| 15:20.32 | greycat | !ftp must die |
| 15:20.32 | dpkg | FTP MUST DIE! http://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie . For authenticated file transfer, ask me about <sftp>. For unauthenticated download, HTTP: http://daniel.haxx.se/docs/ftp-vs-http.html . Debian ceased offering mirrors via FTP on 2017-11-01 https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20170425 |
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| 15:22.55 | khobo | yeah i'm trying to do a provisioning server for a phone |
| 15:22.57 | khobo | and it needs FTP |
| 15:23.06 | khobo | i have choice of FTP or FTPS |
| 15:23.37 | khobo | itll just be local LAN nothing outward facing |
| 15:24.58 | Deknos | sftp is not an option? |
| 15:25.28 | khobo | sadly no |
| 15:25.33 | khobo | i see FTP, trivial FTP, and FTPS |
| 15:25.45 | khobo | also HTTP/HTTPS is an option |
| 15:25.50 | khobo | but seems like more work to get that going |
| 15:25.58 | khobo | and i'm running this off a pi so |
| 15:26.10 | greycat | I would choose HTTP. |
| 15:26.32 | khobo | even if its not outward facing? |
| 15:26.43 | khobo | i wonder what they even mean by http |
| 15:27.04 | Deknos | back in the day i was happy with pure-ftpd |
| 15:27.11 | Deknos | which does at least ftp |
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| 15:27.16 | Deknos | and is in debian stable i think |
| 15:27.28 | Deknos | khobo, you also can put files on the server with http |
| 15:27.38 | Deknos | put and post exist, webdav for example |
| 15:28.16 | khobo | ive never setup apache or anything like that |
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| 15:28.20 | khobo | figured FTP would be the easiest method here |
| 15:28.25 | khobo | =I |
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| 15:28.34 | Deknos | can be. depends on your experience |
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| 15:32.26 | Deknos | and with this ftp must die - well then nfs also has to die |
| 15:32.37 | Deknos | there's a client port range also, which has to be opened. |
| 15:32.49 | Deknos | this FAQ should be looked at critical |
| 15:32.53 | Deknos | !nfs must die |
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| 15:33.37 | greycat | Feel free to write that. Bear in mind that NFS is not normally used on the open Internet. |
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| 15:34.01 | genr8_ | last time I picked ProFTP |
| 15:34.38 | Deknos | well, as long as there's no replacement for nfs, we have to live with that. but that always bothered me with the client range |
| 15:41.51 | oxek | can someone help me find the documentation of what the 'sw' option does in /etc/fstab? I checked manpages of fstab, mkswap, swapon, debian wiki, and did not find what I am looking for. |
| 15:42.04 | oxek | the 'sw' option only applies to swap |
| 15:43.53 | cipherize | oxek: I want to say that it's a carry-over from BSD. |
| 15:45.39 | oxek | that's indeed possible. |
| 15:45.40 | cipherize | In fact, I believe that, in Linux, those have no effect. |
| 15:45.58 | cipherize | The only mount option that I am aware of that has any function for fstype "swap" is "pri=" |
| 15:46.14 | oxek | my main issue is that I don't know if I should apply the 'sw' option to swapfiles as well as swap parititons, or whether I should just use 'default' for the option column. |
| 15:46.41 | oxek | and of course the 'defaults' option is not documented anywhere for the 'swap' type |
| 15:46.50 | cipherize | Because I don't believe it applies. |
| 15:47.15 | oxek | cipherize: debian-stable default installation creates a swap partition that has the 'sw' option in /etc/fstab |
| 15:47.17 | cipherize | The default mount option for 'swap' is ... nothing. It allows the kernel to assign a pri value, and swap implies 'auto' unless 'noauto' is specified. |
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| 15:48.53 | cipherize | oxek: That's great, but from everything I can find, it has zero function. |
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| 15:50.50 | cipherize | oxek: http://ix.io/2yBN |
| 15:51.24 | oxek | I see. No difference. |
| 15:52.00 | oxek | thanks for your input |
| 15:52.05 | cipherize | So yeah, I believe that "sw" is a noop. |
| 15:52.45 | oxek | talking of swapfiles, is it still wrong to use fallocate on ext4 to create it? |
| 15:52.51 | oxek | the manpage discourages it |
| 15:53.13 | oxek | in fact, I don't even know if dd is guaranteed to not create a file with holes |
| 15:53.25 | cipherize | oxek: fallocate with -z should be safe. |
| 15:53.55 | cipherize | That does the zeroing, same as dd would. |
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| 15:54.47 | oxek | hmm, I never used the -z flag |
| 15:57.32 | cipherize | Basically, you want to ensure that the space for the swapfile is fully, actually allocated, not just preallocated. That's what -z is for. |
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| 15:59.45 | lle-bout | looks like web package information debian website is down - e.g. https://packages.debian.org/buster/efibootmgr - also search for packages wont work |
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| 16:01.39 | oxek | lle-bout: confirmed |
| 16:01.55 | oxek | it happens, usually a few times a week |
| 16:01.58 | oxek | give it time |
| 16:02.21 | lle-bout | hmm okay, I visit it quite often and never seen it down before |
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| 16:06.07 | JordiGH | I feel like the whole web is laughing at me for using Firefox 68 |
| 16:06.53 | joepublic | dunno what happened to firefox, it was a contender for a while |
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| 16:08.05 | JordiGH | I mean, Debian's Firefox seems to be too old. |
| 16:08.10 | JordiGH | Several websites now don't work on it. |
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| 16:08.15 | JordiGH | imgur, for example. |
| 16:09.27 | JordiGH | Someone said there was hope of getting a newer ESR into Debian. Is there a public discussion about that? |
| 16:09.51 | sney | it's on the way, it was uploaded to sid a few days ago |
| 16:09.56 | genr8_ | ive never had a problem |
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| 16:10.42 | genr8_ | whats wrong with imgur |
| 16:10.54 | JyZyXEL | oh so thats why imgur is just a gray page? |
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| 16:11.09 | genr8_ | uh |
| 16:11.41 | genr8_ | i must be doing something right, cause it looks normal to me. |
| 16:12.35 | sney | haha. yesterday. time flies. assuming everything goes normally, it'll be in testing late next week, and backports shortly after. https://tracker.debian.org/news/1178059/accepted-firefox-esr-7830esr-2-source-into-unstable/ |
| 16:14.56 | JyZyXEL | i seem to remember mozilla would be EOLing FF 68.x series in late September or October |
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| 16:18.03 | jelly | JordiGH, not just hope, that will happen soon because 68esr is soon to be EOLd |
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| 16:20.01 | JordiGH | genr8_: it's possible to opt out of imgur's new design, but yeah, the new design just shows nothing on Firefox 68 |
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| 16:22.24 | jhutchins | RedHat preserves an install log that can tell you when the system was built. Does Debian have some sort of file that will show by it's date when the system was built or upgraded? |
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| 16:23.40 | joepublic | maybe in /var/log/apt |
| 16:24.18 | JyZyXEL | kernel prints the build info into dmesg during startup? |
| 16:24.32 | JordiGH | Uhm, I have some .script and .time files in my root homedir that I created during installation because the release notes told me to. |
| 16:24.43 | JordiGH | But it was a manual thing. It's a full log of the upgrade process. |
| 16:24.53 | JordiGH | I suppose not at all what you're asking. |
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| 16:29.11 | jsync | (Cool people are "Cool". ð) "Here Here" sounds like stuttering. Troll-Name-Calling is a Crime. How were "right" & "wrong" considered amidst a coherency test? |
| 16:29.56 | genr8_ | Upgraded = timestamp of /etc/debian_version (and contents is the build number - 10.5) |
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| 16:31.57 | JordiGH | That's some weird spam. |
| 16:34.06 | jhutchins | genr8_: Hm, that's a point release date. |
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| 16:34.33 | genr8_ | yeah, and the date is when you upgraded to it. |
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| 16:35.17 | jhutchins | I have a speech-dispatcher log that's the oldest file in /var/log on this laptop, but on my server nothing seems to be as old as I know the hardware to be. |
| 16:35.43 | genr8_ | just look at the earliest dates of the dirs in / |
| 16:35.45 | jsync | (Law really is "Law": True or False; does not evaluate apprehension, not actually.) |
| 16:36.36 | jsync | (Retendant attendant wasted opportunity of mere waste.) |
| 16:37.43 | jhutchins | genr8_: Yeah, but /var/log/speech-dispatcher is older. |
| 16:38.14 | genr8_ | thats not a valid pick of whats older |
| 16:38.38 | jsync | ("Dance of the Clairvoyants") |
| 16:39.18 | Mazhive | i have a question i am working on a xinit/xstart run 1 program from boot into a specific user iuse the .bashrc to start the program i wander if the output from a xterm could be blinded i get a whit console starting up my program for a few seconds and confirming it running and the program goes in fullscreen covering the xterm can i use xterm arguments to minimize or run it in the background |
| 16:39.23 | genr8_ | unless you did something ridiculous like re-create your whole root filesystem, it should be easy to find |
| 16:39.54 | genr8_ | the symlinks in / should not have changed. |
| 16:39.57 | joepublic | Mazhive, wmctrl can manipulate windows for you |
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| 16:40.37 | jhutchins | genr8_: So is it possible that a package dropped files in /var/log that show a date older than when they were installed? |
| 16:40.39 | Mazhive | i have to notice i am not using any graphical manager so no ldm gdm only xinit fresh install in console |
| 16:40.57 | jsync | (Broke the IQ test. *Shrugs*) |
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| 16:41.59 | n4dir | Mazhive: if all you want is to run 1 program, what is the point of being able to minimize it? |
| 16:42.42 | jhutchins | genr8_: Checking / on my server shows 2015, which sounds about right. |
| 16:42.43 | Mazhive | xinit uses xterm to run the program |
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| 16:42.58 | Mazhive | so first it runs xterm than it runs my program |
| 16:43.54 | Mazhive | i need xinit to use the graphical windows to be drawn for the program to run |
| 16:44.06 | n4dir | i might recall wrong, but i recall you can put any program in .xinitrc and only that will start |
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| 16:44.41 | n4dir | can't say running a window-manager bothers me much though |
| 16:44.42 | Mazhive | it is a super minimalistic debian netinstall les package less resources |
| 16:44.44 | neilthereildeil | hey guys why does dd only read 12MB/s from a RAID5 array when iflags=direct? |
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| 16:45.12 | genr8_ | use a higher blocksize. bs=2m |
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| 16:45.47 | Mazhive | i have tried but it uses the root user to run the program that is a highly security risk |
| 16:47.23 | n4dir | openbox will probably use something like 5 MB. Let it be 10. I can't see the problem |
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| 16:47.44 | n4dir | openbox, autostart that app, and call it a day |
| 16:51.08 | Mazhive | openbox true ... yet another step to account with..maybe someone can look into my tutorial i wrote i need feed back to adress my needs and problems |
| 16:51.32 | Mazhive | eventually from this tutorial i intend to auto mate this |
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| 17:00.21 | no_gravity | Hello! The screen of my PinePhone with Mobian randomly wakes up. Any ideas how to debug it? |
| 17:00.23 | Mazhive | it is my first attempt to make things easier for people who used to know a os (Motorola 680x0) which is not "popular" by the gross people, this script/tutorial is mainly goaled on enthousiast still wanting to do more with it by giving the community the tutorial/script |
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| 17:02.16 | oerheks | no_gravity, mobian homepage writes; #mobian support is on OFTC |
| 17:02.29 | no_gravity | oerheks: OFTC? |
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| 17:04.50 | jsync | (*Looks to his watch*) |
| 17:06.30 | jsync | (If you want to read about the probabilities of the survival of the human species, then #FollowTheWightRabbit https://twitter.com/DAOTekDev.) |
| 17:07.49 | jsync | (Various people might find that sort of interesting. ((They can actually decide about that for themselves.))) |
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| 17:10.54 | mtnman | helo |
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| 17:11.30 | mtnman | is there a good alternative to wicd for wifi connection? everytime wicd connects to wifi, my lan connection is dropped. |
| 17:12.37 | mtnman | since i'm ssh'd into that box, this is highly inconvenient. |
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| 17:15.47 | jhutchins | mtnman: wicd is prety much deprecated. At one point it worked better than Network Manager, but NM has long since surpassed it. |
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| 17:17.52 | diogenes_ | mtnman, Devuan uses wicd so maybe ask them. |
| 17:18.44 | mtnman | i asked there (box dual boots debian/devuan) they said wicd is deprecated in next release. suppose i will try networkmanager thanks. |
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| 17:25.07 | mtnman | thanks. bfn. |
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| 17:27.38 | Mazhive | @n4dir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bw1sU_SWIM&feature=youtu.be |
| 17:28.22 | Mazhive | n4dir |
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| 17:32.35 | n4dir | ha. cool |
| 17:32.38 | Franciman | Hi |
| 17:33.05 | Franciman | does anybody have debian on a dell xps 13? |
| 17:33.50 | no_gravity | Franciman: Kinda |
| 17:34.08 | Franciman | I am not sure it is on topic, but I wanted to keep the whole system recovery thing |
| 17:34.20 | no_gravity | Franciman: System recovery thing? |
| 17:34.50 | Franciman | yes, it should have a partition containing the original ubuntu |
| 17:35.08 | Franciman | so that if you screw up everything, you can get back to how you bought it |
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| 17:36.19 | no_gravity | Franciman: Ok. So what? |
| 17:36.29 | Franciman | I wanted to know if somebody knows what I should keep |
| 17:36.35 | Franciman | when creating the new partitions |
| 17:37.13 | no_gravity | Franciman: As a first step, I would boot Linux from a thumb drive and look at the partitions. |
| 17:38.17 | Franciman | and regarding the bootloader? |
| 17:38.27 | no_gravity | Bootloader? |
| 17:38.29 | Franciman | I see these directories in /boot/efi |
| 17:38.53 | Franciman | err in /boot/efi/EFI |
| 17:38.58 | Franciman | dell Microsoft ubuntu Boot |
| 17:40.07 | no_gravity | Well... I don't know. |
| 17:40.45 | Franciman | np |
| 17:40.46 | Franciman | thanks |
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| 17:42.01 | Franciman | whilst, regarding hardware requiring non-free firmware? |
| 17:42.13 | Franciman | I saw that the wireless card needs non-free firmware |
| 17:42.22 | Franciman | is there a way to know what else needs non-free firmware? |
| 17:42.30 | Franciman | an easy way :P |
| 17:43.08 | no_gravity | Easiest way I can think of is to install Debian and see :) |
| 17:43.53 | Franciman | for example I'm reading about GPU frequency scaling |
| 17:44.06 | Franciman | does debian-install tell me about the missing firmware? |
| 17:44.10 | Franciman | even for GPU frequency scaling? |
| 17:44.54 | no_gravity | I don't know. |
| 17:49.42 | sponix2ipfw | genr8_: you still alive ? |
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| 17:55.47 | genr8_ | CONFIG_RANDOM_TRUST_CPU yes |
| 17:55.52 | genr8_ | er |
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| 18:03.30 | jelly | release history |
| 18:03.36 | jelly | oops |
| 18:03.43 | jelly | does /QUERY dpkg |
| 18:03.44 | greycat | but I'm not holding history prisoner |
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| 18:08.00 | *** part/#debian nickodd (~nickodd@unaffiliated/nickodd) |
| 18:08.49 | genr8_ | is there a way to run a post-apt hook for everytime i install a package ? I wanna run dpkg -L to show me everything |
| 18:08.59 | genr8_ | i made an alias but it only works for one at a time |
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| 18:13.16 | genr8_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:14.48 | genr8_ | ooh nevermind i got it with the alias. |
| 18:16.38 | jelly | !destroy history |
| 18:16.38 | dpkg | tears history into little tiny pieces, then burns them, and scatters the ashes |
| 18:16.55 | n4dir | lol |
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| 18:25.58 | ratrace | cp /.zfs/snapshot/snap-20200924-200000/home/jelly/.bash_history /home/jelly/ |
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| 18:29.58 | genr8_ | love zfs |
| 18:30.25 | genr8_ | ZFS should be in charge of saving the worlds data |
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| 18:46.21 | jelly | well it's really dsmc restore ./.history -subdir=no |
| 18:46.54 | jelly | and I had a restic volume somewhere, but something ated it |
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| 19:08.47 | tmroland | in terms of memory management on linux, disk blocks are buffered and cached in memory pages (slabs) which make up the cache right? |
| 19:12.15 | tmroland | disk blocks (contents) -> buffers -> memory pages -> slabs -> cache |
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| 19:24.41 | NetTerminalGene | i'm waiting latest firefox-esr |
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| 19:24.48 | NetTerminalGene | ,v firefox-esr |
| 19:24.49 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 68.11.0esr-1; buster-proposed-updates: 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: |
| 19:24.50 | judd | 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; sid: 78.3.0esr-2 |
| 19:25.25 | greycat | Is there any specific reason *why* you want a higher-numbered firefox-esr package? How many things is it going to break? |
| 19:25.58 | NetTerminalGene | ten version bigger than the old one |
| 19:26.19 | NetTerminalGene | it must have a lot of impovements |
| 19:26.25 | greycat | *plonk* |
| 19:27.26 | greycat | I keep hoping that when I say things like "the sum of your version numbers is not your score; it does not determine your worth", that I am exaggerating. Alas. |
| 19:27.28 | NetTerminalGene | i think it has revamped addressbar |
| 19:27.54 | NetTerminalGene | and maybe vaapi accel |
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| 19:29.48 | n4dir | looks like i am using version 80 whatever. Didn't realize any difference yet. I probably don't read enough news |
| 19:30.26 | NetTerminalGene | n4dir: 81 is released |
| 19:30.33 | NetTerminalGene | yesterday |
| 19:30.53 | NetTerminalGene | as |
| 19:30.55 | NetTerminalGene | was |
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| 19:31.10 | n4dir | might be, but i probably won't see any difference there either |
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| 19:31.38 | genr8_ | Firefox and Chrome version numbers are going to sync up, and then Google is going to buy Mozilla |
| 19:31.43 | genr8_ | watch. |
| 19:32.28 | genr8_ | Version 100 = 1 Browser to rule them all |
| 19:32.43 | genr8_ | pwn you all* |
| 19:32.53 | NetTerminalGene | google won't bbuy mozilla |
| 19:33.10 | ratrace | they're already paying mozilla... |
| 19:33.24 | NetTerminalGene | yes |
| 19:33.26 | EdePopede | acceleration is a nice thing to have (or probably rather would be in my case *g*), and then imgur, and as it was mentioned, also other sites. |
| 19:33.50 | NetTerminalGene | EdePopede: imgur? |
| 19:33.58 | EdePopede | an idea which version is minumum now and if there's a difference to upstream? |
| 19:34.35 | EdePopede | NetTerminalGene: seems they changed something breaking older browsers. at least my old firefox and what i've read before 68 in general? |
| 19:34.46 | EdePopede | <JordiGH> genr8_: it's possible to opt out of imgur's new design, but yeah, the new design just shows nothing on Firefox 68 |
| 19:34.50 | greycat | The other day, we had a discussion in here, where we were trying to figure out when support ends for ESR 68. Turns out, someone found a web site where they said ESR 68 support will end when 78.3 is released, and the release date of that was 2 days ago (allegedly). |
| 19:35.30 | greycat | imgur lost my support when they demanded that I log in before I could upload an image. Nope. |
| 19:35.40 | EdePopede | i always had issues keeping an eye on the relevant mozilla pages, they like to redesign their site for every new EST it seems |
| 19:35.56 | EdePopede | i remember it, didn't they take it back later? |
| 19:36.18 | ratrace | imgur lost _my_ support when they started requiring resources from sites firefox and my dns blacklist were blocking. |
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| 19:37.46 | EdePopede | and yeah, most of the modern/commercial web is broken in that regard these days. youtube shouts at me every time i return there to login, pinterest lets me scroll down maybe a page, quora doesn't allow f'up reading for years already. |
| 19:38.54 | EdePopede | right, and even wikipedia seems to be going mobile first now. i want the 90s back! |
| 19:40.53 | NetTerminalGene | i wonder if you guys use firefox's default scrolling step size? |
| 19:41.17 | NetTerminalGene | default one is very small step |
| 19:41.32 | NetTerminalGene | and scroll animation sucks |
| 19:41.44 | NetTerminalGene | so i disable it |
| 19:41.52 | ratrace | one small step for man, one giant leap for cpu clocks. |
| 19:42.13 | NetTerminalGene | exactly |
| 19:42.20 | NetTerminalGene | i think it uses cpu |
| 19:42.28 | NetTerminalGene | instead of gpu |
| 19:43.09 | oxek | it better not use gpu |
| 19:43.22 | NetTerminalGene | mozilla is in worse condition after pandemy |
| 19:43.44 | n4dir | after ? |
| 19:43.52 | NetTerminalGene | they lay off 250 employee |
| 19:44.02 | EdePopede | ratrace: "Wow. Wow! One small thing for a thing. One enormous thing for a thingy thing." ÂÂâCourtney Woods (SCNR) |
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| 19:44.53 | EdePopede | nice soft scrolling is something i'm not sure i ever had |
| 19:44.53 | ratrace | but the CEO got 400% pay rise so they're bathing in money! |
| 19:45.18 | EdePopede | NetTerminalGene: developers or managers? |
| 19:45.42 | NetTerminalGene | EdePopede: devs i think |
| 19:45.53 | EdePopede | see, they're already playing the game |
| 19:46.20 | NetTerminalGene | maybe we should switch to brave browser? |
| 19:46.33 | NetTerminalGene | i have brave as backup |
| 19:47.04 | oxek | isn't brave just a chromium with a cryptocoin miner? |
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| 19:47.39 | NetTerminalGene | oxek: it has money earning ad option |
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| 19:48.43 | EdePopede | can't remember what it is, but brave raises a warning light |
| 19:49.24 | genr8_ | https://i.imgur.com/28sq4uZ.png |
| 19:49.28 | genr8_ | whole site works |
| 19:49.49 | oxek | why wouldn't it? |
| 19:50.21 | genr8_ | everyone keeps saying it doesnt. |
| 19:50.25 | genr8_ | it does. |
| 19:50.26 | EdePopede | wtf, here too now. didn't for weeks until just minutes ago. |
| 19:50.37 | EdePopede | oh, stop. |
| 19:51.01 | EdePopede | a lot of the images on the startpage just show the broken image icon in their rectangl |
| 19:51.05 | NetTerminalGene | genr8_: why do you use privacy badger with ublock? |
| 19:51.38 | genr8_ | idk |
| 19:51.52 | oxek | EdePopede: what's the value of layout.css.resizeobserver.enabled? |
| 19:52.03 | genr8_ | you should ask me why does PrivacyBadger still show that its blocking stuff, if its not needed ? |
| 19:52.14 | EdePopede | browsers are so complex these days, and w3c/whatwg are releasing so fast it may be easier maintaining an OS than a browser |
| 19:52.31 | n4dir | lol. |
| 19:52.42 | EdePopede | oxek: i'll check, may be i don't have it in this version yet. not running the default profile atm. |
| 19:53.02 | oxek | default is false on debian, set it to true to fix imgur |
| 19:53.48 | genr8_ | mine is false... still works. every image on frontpage shows up. |
| 19:54.09 | oxek | genr8_: but do the actual images load if you click them? |
| 19:54.11 | ratrace | genr8_: but what if oyu click on a post? |
| 19:54.34 | genr8_ | ah. yes its broken then |
| 19:55.50 | genr8_ | well the layout.css.resizeobserver.enabled works. thanks for figuring it out |
| 19:56.04 | EdePopede | oxek: nope. had to add it, but to no effect. i'll check for the version at which it starts to work ;) |
| 19:56.38 | oxek | genr8_: mozilla flipped it to default true in firefox 69, so imgur figured it has been 11 months since that release so it was safe to sue |
| 19:56.40 | oxek | *use |
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| 19:57.00 | genr8_ | ok. now we know. |
| 19:57.19 | greycat | what kind of an idiot assumes that their entire user base is running software less than a year old? |
| 19:57.29 | genr8_ | they coulda put a message saying "we detected your user agent is firefox 68, wanna enable layout.css.resizeobserver.enabled" ? |
| 19:57.37 | greycat | oh right. web developers. |
| 19:57.40 | EdePopede | i wish mozilla would be better in documenting their settings |
| 19:58.10 | EdePopede | greycat: do you really mean the "developers" part? |
| 19:58.24 | oxek | EdePopede: https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/modules/libpref/init/all.js is not good enough? |
| 19:58.26 | genr8_ | deveLARPers |
| 19:58.32 | EdePopede | lol |
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| 19:59.09 | greycat | EdePopede: what do you call them? |
| 19:59.10 | EdePopede | i tend to stay with web designers, since design most of the time doesn't hurt anyone, only one shouldn't assume usability. |
| 19:59.55 | EdePopede | remember when apple managed to have their laptops break the usb plub when opening them? |
| 20:00.37 | EdePopede | or the old story with the reflecting displays. sure, all this LOOKS good in a shopping window, but the moment you have to use it all you want is your money back. |
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| 20:01.55 | EdePopede | greycat: it's like i refuse to call certain... products press or the people writing for them journalists. this would actually be an offence against people deserving that title. |
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| 20:05.32 | NetTerminalGene | new version firefox has gray padlock >.< |
| 20:07.58 | EdePopede | always a good idea to change the look of interface elements holding relevant information not meant to interrupt the workflow by investigating them |
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| 20:16.59 | jhutchins | NetTerminalGene: Click on it and see if it tells you anything. |
| 20:19.18 | NetTerminalGene | jhutchins: i know it says |
| 20:19.55 | NetTerminalGene | jhutchins: are you firefox maintainer? |
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| 20:23.52 | genr8_ | Nice. I just found a script to export all my user prefs , and I found a function to identify only the ones I had modified. |
| 20:24.03 | genr8_ | narrowed the list down from 3600 to 255 |
| 20:26.32 | oxek | genr8_: you mean a script that just prints out the contents of prefs.js in the firefox profile directory? |
| 20:27.17 | genr8_ | doh. yeah. |
| 20:27.19 | greycat | find .mozilla/ -name prefs.js -exec cat {} + |
| 20:27.30 | genr8_ | I accidentally thought that file had ALL 3600 of them. |
| 20:27.52 | genr8_ | either way.. the script does output all 3600 ;p |
| 20:27.57 | genr8_ | if you remove the line i added lol |
| 20:28.17 | genr8_ | https://github.com/claustromaniac/Compare-UserJS/blob/master/prefs_exporter.js |
| 20:30.52 | oxek | greycat: you're missing the line that executes the electron framework. Get with the times. |
| 20:31.50 | oxek | or do you have alias find=findium |
| 20:32.48 | oxek | (someone will create findium soon, it's inevitable) |
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| 20:34.30 | genr8_ | I also just found /usr/lib/firefox-esr/browser/defaults/ , which is where I can put the https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/modules/libpref/init/all.js you linked |
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| 20:34.54 | genr8_ | and it says it will override the about:config. then I can output it again, and DIFF them |
| 20:35.15 | genr8_ | this is almost as much fun as diffing kernel .configs |
| 20:35.20 | oxek | beware, I don't know if all.js is up-to-date |
| 20:35.35 | oxek | it also most certainly does not refer to the esr versions |
| 20:36.12 | genr8_ | master branch says June 14th |
| 20:36.25 | oxek | also, you should not be putting things in /usr/lib/firefox-esr, put it in /etc/firefox-esr/ |
| 20:36.40 | genr8_ | You can switch tree to 68-ESR |
| 20:36.45 | genr8_ | https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-esr68/source/modules/libpref/init/all.js |
| 20:36.47 | oxek | /usr/ should not be touched manually unless you have very good reasons for it |
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| 20:37.01 | genr8_ | this one is dated July 2019 |
| 20:38.18 | genr8_ | Also I found something called "LibreFox" https://github.com/intika/Librefox/blob/master/librefox/mozilla.cfg |
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| 20:38.36 | genr8_ | aims to be privacy oriented Firefox (but its old. version 64 from 2018) |
| 20:38.43 | oxek | just use the ghacksuserjs like everyone else |
| 20:38.55 | genr8_ | good to know |
| 20:38.56 | oxek | https://github.com/ghacksuserjs/ghacks-user.js |
| 20:39.14 | greycat | I think I need to ignore oxek along with all the people or imaginary people he's talking to.... |
| 20:39.15 | oxek | looks like they renamed it to https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js |
| 20:39.23 | n4dir | lol |
| 20:39.35 | oxek | ignoring me is probably for the best :D |
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| 20:41.26 | oxek | genr8_: in any case, please try to not break your debian |
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| 20:45.34 | KOLANICH | Hi everybody |
| 20:46.21 | genr8_ | Ill touch what I want. no harm anyway, new version comes in 3 days |
| 20:47.03 | oxek | genr8_: the upgrade does not delete any extra files you might have added to the /usr/lib/firefox dir, and firefox can still load those files |
| 20:47.47 | oxek | on apt purge you should get a warning though that the dirs are not empty hence not deleted |
| 20:48.14 | oxek | I had to do a apt purge of firefox recently to reinstall it, and it was not trivial |
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| 20:52.26 | KOLANICH | Is here some of maintainers of firefox package? |
| 20:53.05 | greycat | Extremely unlikely. |
| 20:53.52 | oxek | KOLANICH: there are however users of firefox here, so ask a question and someone might know |
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| 20:54.08 | nvz | I've only glanced in twice today and didnt really /read/ anything per se and this is the 2nd time I've noticed mention of firefox maintainers |
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| 20:54.28 | nvz | and haven't really noted any specific question :P |
| 20:54.58 | joepublic | Thank you to the firefox maintainers. We appreciate your efforts. |
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| 20:55.23 | nvz | @.@ |
| 20:55.48 | joepublic | I'm sure that's it, anyway |
| 20:55.54 | oxek | joepublic: you could try emailing them team+pkg-mozilla@tracker.debian.org |
| 20:56.12 | KOLANICH | oxek: I just want the official package be built with some flags. I mean that one of the features (or a lack of antifeature, because it is also available in regular editions, just reserved fkr Mozilla exclusive use) reserved by Mozilla for devedition is missing. |
| 20:56.47 | greycat | so, file a wishlist bug |
| 20:56.55 | oxek | KOLANICH: what flag might that be? |
| 20:59.34 | KOLANICH | oxec: some of the ones enabling MOZ_DEV_EDITION macrodef |
| 21:00.14 | KOLANICH | https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=970765 |
| 21:00.15 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/970765 in firefox (open): «Enable WebExtensions Experiments in the packages»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2020-09-23; last modified: 2020-09-23. |
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| 21:05.28 | oxek | very unlikely to be done |
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| 21:06.03 | dubiago | first time on debian, long time on ubuntu. seriously dig. |
| 21:07.57 | dvs | spy! |
| 21:07.58 | jim | Hi, I'm running debian 10 (buster), is it possible to get/install firefox 79 or 80? |
| 21:08.43 | jim | bill cosby was on i spy |
| 21:08.58 | greycat | Yes, you can use upstream binaries. Do NOT use packages. |
| 21:09.30 | jim | greycat, ok, could you elaborate the reason for that? |
| 21:09.41 | pingfloyd | jim: download the upstream tarball from mozilla and extra to /opt |
| 21:09.51 | pingfloyd | extract* |
| 21:10.17 | jim | yeah I could do that... what is the problem with the packages? |
| 21:10.34 | pingfloyd | packages lag behind |
| 21:10.59 | jim | so are you just saying those versions aren't packaged yet? |
| 21:11.16 | KOLANICH | greycat: why not to officially build with devedition features? |
| 21:12.09 | alex11 | if you want the newer firefox just download it from mozilla's site, you don't have to use debian packages |
| 21:12.11 | nvz | jim: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/firefox-esr |
| 21:12.22 | alex11 | though firefox esr is going to come out in debian soon as 70 something or other |
| 21:12.55 | alex11 | 78 i guess |
| 21:13.02 | alex11 | which is not what you want :P |
| 21:13.15 | jim | it's one behind :) |
| 21:13.16 | KOLANICH | alex11: I cannot distribute my addon to people saying "don't install firefox from packages, install from Mozilla" |
| 21:13.33 | oxek | KOLANICH: direct them to the flatpak version of firefox |
| 21:13.51 | KOLANICH | oxek: flatpack and snap is shit |
| 21:13.59 | KOLANICH | *are |
| 21:14.28 | nvz | jim: it seems to be being held up by transitions that effect numerous other packages |
| 21:14.44 | oxek | KOLANICH: then you're gonna have to direct users to the mozilla download pages, tell them not to get the packages and instead get the tars, and to extract them in correct locations and setup links |
| 21:15.53 | KOLANICH | oxec: is there any reason not to distribute the binaries with the feature enabled? |
| 21:15.54 | jim | oh ok |
| 21:16.08 | KOLANICH | *the official binary packages |
| 21:16.27 | wigums | lol his nick is KOLANICH |
| 21:16.43 | jim | nvc, greycat. pingfloyd, thanks :) |
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| 21:17.41 | nvz | there is a C++ / GCC transition and a Python transition taking place which hasnt even began to cause its full level of pain yet |
| 21:18.14 | oxek | KOLANICH: that feature is supposed to be internal-only (internal to mozilla) |
| 21:19.04 | oxek | putting it in release versions (and even esr versions) is asking for trouble with various undefined and untested behavior |
| 21:20.45 | KOLANICH | oxek: Mozilla imposes too much policy in their decisions. Their decision is that the API to set about:config prefs won't be exposed. In fact their course is on disabling about:config, they have done it in Fenix (and dropped Fennec). We have to counter. |
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| 21:21.44 | JordiGH | wtf disable about:config?? |
| 21:21.52 | JordiGH | What are we gonna have instead? |
| 21:21.52 | oxek | JordiGH: they did that on android |
| 21:21.59 | JordiGH | wtf wtf wtf |
| 21:22.00 | JordiGH | why |
| 21:22.15 | oxek | KOLANICH: we're safe for another year, ff78esr is nearly here |
| 21:22.44 | KOLANICH | WebExtensions ex0eriments is a semi-internal very poorly documented unstable stuff. But at least it is a way to add an own API without forking and building Firefox ourselves (which is very long and resource-consuming). |
| 21:22.52 | KOLANICH | *experiments |
| 21:23.03 | oxek | we have a year to find a different browser if mozilla does something anti-user that would strongly go against the debian social contract |
| 21:23.26 | pingfloyd | mozilla's decision makers have been too many hard drugs |
| 21:23.49 | oxek | JordiGH: telemetry showed that no one used about:config on android |
| 21:24.06 | JordiGH | oxek: So that means there's no reason to do anything about it. |
| 21:24.06 | pingfloyd | seems like it has become a trend with mozilla to make terrible decisions |
| 21:24.10 | JordiGH | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1540065 |
| 21:24.12 | JordiGH | Hmmmm.. |
| 21:24.32 | pingfloyd | oxek: but lots of people user it, so why mess with it? |
| 21:24.35 | oxek | pingfloyd: it all started when they decided to increase major version number every month |
| 21:24.53 | pingfloyd | this is what telemetry gets you beyond just invading your privacy |
| 21:25.15 | pingfloyd | oxek: another blunder was they removed alsa support |
| 21:25.27 | pingfloyd | it's like their current team doesn't have much common sense or something |
| 21:25.33 | KOLANICH | JordiGH: https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/82c4e08d9890 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1540065 |
| 21:25.52 | oxek | you don't need to have common sense when you have that sweet advertisement money from google for no work |
| 21:25.56 | KOLANICH | JordiGH: the quote from the bug : > I'm saying we shouldn't allow a user to configure Gecko in a way that is unsafe. |
| 21:26.03 | pingfloyd | firefox is my favorite web browser, but they're really testing that |
| 21:26.42 | oxek | debian can always resurrect iceweasel |
| 21:26.54 | JordiGH | Debian can't maintain iceweasel, though. |
| 21:26.57 | oxek | thaw iceweasel? |
| 21:27.00 | pingfloyd | now everyone misses the iceweasel |
| 21:27.25 | pingfloyd | everyone complained about the iceweasel back when, now they're seeing he wasn't so bad |
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| 21:27.51 | oxek | there are lots of forks, we'll see if any of them get any real traction |
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| 21:27.58 | pingfloyd | JordiGH: yeah, it's a pretty big support burden |
| 21:28.05 | pingfloyd | JordiGH: and firefox is such a fast moving target |
| 21:28.31 | JordiGH | Firefox is bigger than Debian. |
| 21:28.33 | JordiGH | Bigger than Jesus. |
| 21:28.36 | JordiGH | It's a huge beast. |
| 21:28.45 | KOLANICH | oxek: Mozilla is doing anti-user activity about 10 years. Noone can counter because developing a modern web browser is very expensive. Chromium is subsidized entiry by google and was created with the sole purpose - to take over Firefox, gec tontrol over the ecosystem and turn the ecosystem the way beneficial for Google |
| 21:28.58 | oxek | pingfloyd: it really isn't that fast-moving. The only real change between 68esr and 78esr is flipping some options (that already existed in 68esr) and changing the url bar. |
| 21:29.04 | pingfloyd | it all kind of started to go downhill around the time quantum came out |
| 21:29.28 | JordiGH | oxek: Well, I assume imgur works in 78esr |
| 21:29.37 | oxek | JordiGH: imgur works in 68esr too |
| 21:29.39 | JordiGH | So I assume that's more than options. |
| 21:29.41 | pingfloyd | some good addons were lost forever too because of that |
| 21:29.46 | JordiGH | Only if you opt out of the imgur beta. |
| 21:29.56 | oxek | JordiGH: no, it works even without that |
| 21:30.12 | JordiGH | Oh? How do you make imgur not show a blank grey page in 68esr? |
| 21:30.21 | oxek | JordiGH: flip layout.css.resizeobserver.enabled to true |
| 21:30.34 | JordiGH | So it is just an option, as you say. |
| 21:30.48 | oxek | yes |
| 21:31.08 | oxek | an option that has existed in firefox for years, and was flipped to true in 69 |
| 21:31.09 | pingfloyd | I've never noticed any problems with using imgur in any version I've used |
| 21:31.32 | pingfloyd | I remember a few time youtube wigging out |
| 21:31.43 | pingfloyd | with a couple versions |
| 21:31.53 | pingfloyd | but they fixed that pretty quick |
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| 21:33.33 | KOLANICH | oxek: I know only 3 forks that got any significant traction. 1 TorBrowser. Centered around privacy. Follows mainstream firefox. 2 PaleMoon. Centered aroun non-supporting webexts and all modern stuff. Ideologically wrong in the sense that Webexts is a very right approach, the wrong what Mozilla has done was to impose politics into them. Refusing to use webexts is a big step back. 3 IceCat - centerd around FOSS license enforcement. |
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| 21:35.27 | jhutchins | KOLANICH: Let's keep thetraffic here to Debian Support. You can take the conspiracy rants to #debian-offtopic |
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| 21:36.37 | KOLANICH | jhutchins: About Debian support. I think it is necessary to enable some devedition features in the `firefox` package built and shipped by debian. |
| 21:37.12 | greycat | Then file a wishlist bug. |
| 21:37.42 | jhutchins | This is not a philosophy channel. |
| 21:37.42 | KOLANICH | greycat: it has already been filed. |
| 21:38.33 | jim | hi... decompressed a firefox 81 into opt... how can I hook it up the way it was? (menu entry, etc) |
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| 21:39.37 | pingfloyd | jim: I just create a symlink to it in ~/bin |
| 21:40.11 | pingfloyd | jim: and then have ~/bin in your path. Or alternative a symlink in /usr/local/bin. |
| 21:40.30 | jim | pingfloyd, ok... which one of /opt/firefox? /opt/firefox-bin? |
| 21:40.42 | pingfloyd | jim: to /opt/firefox/firefox |
| 21:40.49 | KOLANICH | jhutchins: I am not about philosophy here. I just want to know if is there any real (renaming firefox to iceweasel is OK IMHO, the benefits outweight the problems caused by renaming, I also think that Mozilla may want not to demand renaming because it would mean further drop 0f Firefox market share) reason not to enable the feature. |
| 21:40.56 | jim | oh ok thanks |
| 21:41.12 | pingfloyd | jim: there should be the firefox directory under /opt |
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| 21:42.12 | jim | pingfloyd, yes, you're right, I misspoke :) |
| 21:43.23 | pingfloyd | jim: one thing I further do is find /opt/firefox/ ! -user root; find /opt/firefox ! -group root (and there's actually a reason for this) |
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| 21:44.04 | pingfloyd | jim: there was a period where a few versions of their tarball didn't have root owning the dirs and files |
| 21:44.43 | pingfloyd | jim: you'd see it owned by some uid and guid (because the user and group didn't exist on the system). |
| 21:45.01 | pingfloyd | jim: the dev made an oopsie when they created the archive |
| 21:45.26 | pingfloyd | that uid and guid was probably the user account on their system that they do that under. |
| 21:46.49 | oxek | which is +1 for reproducible builds |
| 21:46.58 | pingfloyd | I don't think it would be a security issue since it was non-existent user and group on my system, but still. |
| 21:47.30 | oxek | not as a security issue, but as 'detect that something is happening differently' feature |
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| 21:50.34 | oxek | which package contains the debian branding, such as wallpaper? |
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| 22:01.06 | jim | pingfloyd, thanks for the tip... both of those find invocations had no output |
| 22:01.34 | pingfloyd | jim: that's the result you want |
| 22:01.44 | jim | thought so :) thanks |
| 22:01.54 | pingfloyd | you're welcome |
| 22:02.44 | pingfloyd | jim: with how easy it is the install and remove, there's not really much need for it to be packaged |
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| 22:03.37 | pingfloyd | seems like it would be better if there was a package to automate downloading and installing (extracting) and updating from upstream |
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| 22:05.10 | KOLANICH | pingfloyd: in fact I have a half-finished solution for that. But upstream is not always a good solution. Sometimes we explicitly don't want upstream. |
| 22:05.39 | pingfloyd | KOLANICH: the package and it's utils could control that |
| 22:06.21 | pingfloyd | KOLANICH: debians done this in the past with some other programs |
| 22:06.50 | KOLANICH | pingfloyd: I have a solution to package binary distributions into a debian package. I currently use CMake packages built this way. And some other. |
| 22:07.09 | KOLANICH | *debian packages |
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| 22:09.35 | jim | pingfloyd, I see your point... and, maybe a maint would want to put things like menu entries, other integrations, etc |
| 22:10.07 | pingfloyd | jim: it takes a lot to compile firefox |
| 22:10.20 | jim | I would imagine |
| 22:10.26 | pingfloyd | jim: it's real pig on resources compiling |
| 22:10.39 | jim | (especially a lot of time) |
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| 22:11.37 | pingfloyd | there's a higher system requirement, according to mozilla, to compile than run it last I checked |
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| 22:20.59 | jim | pingfloyd, maybe someone could package just the integrations, give firefox is unpacked in /opt |
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| 22:53.30 | andoriyu | Alright friends. I'm trying to run ptp4l + chronyd via timemaster and i get permission defined from chornyd when it tries to open any configuration other than /etc/chrony/chrony.conf |
| 22:53.35 | andoriyu | why is that? |
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| 22:59.51 | andoriyu | apparmor is the answer |
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| 23:56.32 | kiwiirc | i set xterm*scrollTtyOutput false in Xresources and that works but when there's output, what im looking at still scrolls up. is there an xterm setting to make output not change what you're looking at and build up the buffer below it? |
