| 00:00.11 | Brigo | alt+tab? |
| 00:00.25 | roycroft | and the management pane at the bottom right of the screen is not fun to deal with |
| 00:00.42 | roycroft | is there another desktop environment where the window manager is easier to work with? |
| 00:00.50 | roycroft | i used mate because it's very lean and clean |
| 00:00.54 | Brigo | i use mate, i move the botton bar to the top, i think there is much better. |
| 00:00.59 | roycroft | but i'm not married to the idea |
| 00:01.27 | roycroft | i'm use to mac os |
| 00:01.27 | Brigo | roycroft, i change windows with alt+tab, i think it is pretty easy. |
| 00:01.45 | roycroft | i switch windows with ctl-number on mac os |
| 00:01.46 | Brigo | i think is a gnome default, mate come from gnome 2 |
| 00:02.01 | roycroft | if i can change the behavior then i'll stick with mate, for now at least |
| 00:02.21 | roycroft | i'd like to make it look and function as much like macos as possible |
| 00:02.38 | roycroft | since i'll be switching back and forth between this machine and macs all the tiem |
| 00:02.41 | scrul00se | I have a puzzle: Using an automated nightly backup system that needs to run as root, which uses a passphrase-protected ssh key to push to a regular account on a remote server... My goal is a user-transparent way to have the passphrase retrieved from a keyring (keepass? gnome-keyring?) and passed to a long-running root-owned agent (eg Funtoo's "keychain" in a reasonably secure way when the user logs in to the DE. |
| 00:02.49 | roycroft | i can't make mac os look like a linu desktop |
| 00:02.54 | Brigo | roycroft, you can configure shorcuts. |
| 00:02.57 | roycroft | so it's best to make the linux desktop look like mac os |
| 00:03.36 | roycroft | i'll look into that, and into moving the window manager bar to the top |
| 00:03.56 | Brigo | i have heart about desktop environment just like that. |
| 00:03.57 | roycroft | i just got this machine working today - it's been a struggle getting dual boot with windows working |
| 00:04.06 | roycroft | i don't do dual boot much |
| 00:04.15 | scrul00se | Thus far, I have keychain working nicely, with an autostart entry that uses sudo to launch keychain, but having to paste the password into a terminal window is not ideal. |
| 00:04.15 | roycroft | and have never done it on uefi before |
| 00:04.35 | Brigo | i have a bar in the top and other, thick one in the left side. |
| 00:04.40 | sney | scrul00se: look at sudo's NOPASSWD option for specific commands |
| 00:04.49 | roycroft | the machine is functional enough that i can take it out in the field and do work now |
| 00:04.59 | roycroft | which was my immediate need |
| 00:05.11 | roycroft | now i can work on tweaking it to my liking |
| 00:05.29 | scrul00se | sney: Yep, got that in effect already, which skips the sudo prompt and gets you to the "unlock this ssh key" prompt. |
| 00:06.59 | sney | passphrases are pretty pointless when it's a machine talking automatically to another machine, I assume there's some reason the ssh key needs to have one? |
| 00:07.51 | scrul00se | sney: Mostly I just don't like to have keys sitting on disk unencrypted. |
| 00:09.25 | roycroft | i seem to recall a discussion about psk + passphrase on thie very channel only a couple weeks ago |
| 00:09.29 | roycroft | it got ugly |
| 00:09.39 | roycroft | i hope today's does not follow suit |
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| 00:10.26 | sney | seems a bit belt-and-suspenders, but ok. hm. maybe right now, focus on getting the password manager or equivalent to spit out the passphrase via a script. then once you have that part working, combine it with the existing sudo kludge to form backup voltron |
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| 00:11.55 | scrul00se | I'm wondering about, say, gnome-keyring's default keyring, which can be set to unlock on user login. Assuming I can pull the passphrase from that from a shell, can I expect simply piping it to "sudo keychain load <key-file>" work? And, like, not result in the passphrase displaying in-the-clear in ps or something? |
| 00:12.09 | sney | !tias |
| 00:12.09 | dpkg | TIAS is "Try It And See". |
| 00:12.49 | sney | this is not a common task, so you will simply need to lab it yourself and find out. |
| 00:13.12 | scrul00se | sney: fair point, at least in terms of "will it work". Does anybody see any egregiously obvious security "don't" there? |
| 00:14.31 | sney | aside from the academic question of "if the computer can unlock the encryption on its own without user intervention, then was it ever truly encrypted", not really. |
| 00:14.47 | greycat | not really academic |
| 00:15.04 | sney | particularly since it's an oddball use case, so you're going to be touching every piece individually. |
| 00:15.25 | scrul00se | The user does unlock it, though, when they provide their password to log in to the DE |
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| 00:21.49 | scrul00se | Since this whole exercise is, admittedly, a bit belt-and-suspenders, I'm inclined to regard having this passphrase in a keyring that's protected only by the desktop login password and unlocked transparently when the user logs in as "good enough". |
| 00:22.24 | sney | it really depends on what you're hardening against |
| 00:24.07 | sney | if your main threat vector is "laptop theft" or equivalent, then that meme where someone has locked their door with a cheeto springs to mind, unless you're also using luks |
| 00:26.45 | sney | really, the point of a passphrase is to require user consent to decrypt whatever the thing is. if you're abstracting the passphrase from the user context entirely, then it becomes pointless, and you should run borgbackup via cron with passphrase-less keys like a normal person |
| 00:27.10 | sney | but also: whatever, it's your computer, and figuring out how to do this will at the very least make you better at all of the steps involved |
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| 00:28.47 | scrul00se | It is more of a learning and "see if it can be done" exercise than hardening against any particularly likely attack. |
| 00:31.23 | scrul00se | (I do use LUKS too) |
| 00:33.40 | scrul00se | The threat model insofar as I have one is basically "if an attacker steals the machine or gets shell through a zero-day browser exploit or something, how high can I raise the bar against them deleting or ransomware-ing the backups? (which are indeed borgbackup) |
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| 00:35.21 | n4dir | if the machine is stolen? |
| 00:35.46 | scrul00se | Making the ssh key inaccessible after a reboot or power loss by passphrase-protecting it and having the unlocked key only in root-owned memory seemed like it would raise that bar a notch. |
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| 00:37.01 | petn-randall | scrul00se: Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but borgbackup supports append-only backups. |
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| 00:38.04 | scrul00se | petn-randall: sort of. Turns out you can "append" things like delete commands, which will then be honoured on the next schedule pruning pass. |
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| 00:39.12 | scrul00se | n4dir: yes? |
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| 00:44.03 | scrul00se | Re: append-only mode https://github.com/borgbackup/borg/issues/4756#issuecomment-534893712 |
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| 00:49.19 | n4dir | i would think for such an encrypted installation is the way to go. |
| 00:49.55 | n4dir | cause as soon the machine is stolen the attacker could boot from a live and reset the user password quicky. I probably look at it from the wrong perspective |
| 00:50.48 | scrul00se | But also yes, I acknowledge that outside of the "to see if I can", the combination of LUKS and a passwordless ssh key in only-readable-by-root directory on disk is adequate and sensible. |
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| 00:52.26 | scrul00se | n4dir: My thinking is that in rebooting to live, even without LUKS, if the unlocked password was only in root-owned RAM it's long-since flushed by the time the live system is up, so then, even without LUKS they need to get past the passphrase to use that key to compromise the backups. |
| 00:52.51 | scrul00se | er, unlocked ssh key, that is. Sorry. |
| 00:53.05 | n4dir | i don't know gnome-keyring or borgbackup, but if i use an ssh-key once it gets stored in ssh-agent, and later i can use it passwordless. I don't understand why one would need to "copy" something from gnome-keyring |
| 00:53.30 | n4dir | scrul00se: ah, like that. ok, as said, just wondering over here, not saying anything. |
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| 00:55.41 | scrul00se | No worries! I am genuinely open to "that won't work because X" input too if you've got it. |
| 00:56.06 | n4dir | scrul00se: but wait. You say you automatically start gnome-keyring after login. So after reset of password, reboot, login, he will have access, no? |
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| 00:57.22 | scrul00se | Nope. Attacker would have to actually know the old password in order to provide it to gnome-keyring. It's *transparent* at user login, but the process is actually that the same password is used separately for both. |
| 00:58.27 | n4dir | i think i see. confusing for sure. Good luck |
| 00:58.44 | scrul00se | So they can's use the ssh key directly 'cause it's passphrase-protected, and they can't get the passphrase out of the gnome-keyring without the owner's original login password. |
| 00:58.58 | scrul00se | s/can's/can't |
| 01:00.13 | scrul00se | (In real life, the ssh key is also in only-readable-by-root directory on a system with LUKS, so the *necessity* of my puzzle is very doubtful.) |
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| 01:01.38 | n4dir | 3 of my old laptops were stolen a month ago. I don't have any useful/private data in git repos on the one hand. And on the other i doubt anyone who steals 10+ year old laptops has a clue what ssh is. |
| 01:02.19 | n4dir | probably some junkies. The Zippo on the desk was more worth than those laptops. And the midi keyboards for sure. lol |
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| 01:02.54 | scrul00se | Haha! Probably true. I'm both a privacy fanatic and the kind of person who finds dreaming up attack scenarios and figuring out how to thwart them kind of fun. ;-) |
| 01:03.32 | scrul00se | Sorry about the laptops though. Even with being ancient machines, that sucks. |
| 01:03.35 | n4dir | yeah, not saying i shouldn't have done it. Doesn't hurt to do it the right way. I didn't use luks as i use laptops only at home. Now am a bit angry for that |
| 01:04.05 | n4dir | they could hardly use a WM, web-browsers not at all. Sure, still sucks a bit, but no loss of ⬠|
| 01:04.10 | scrul00se | is no stranger to having to learn lessons the hard way. Sometimes several times before it sticks. |
| 01:05.10 | n4dir | To end this story: i forgot to close my window. So yes, a lesson i learned on my own fault. :-) |
| 01:06.01 | scrul00se | Ouch. |
| 01:07.00 | mi11k1 | j |
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| 06:17.38 | tohoyn | Hi. How do I remove a patch when I use gbp pq? |
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| 08:51.11 | S3xyL1nux | god damn |
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| 09:17.02 | DomasTux | Hello! |
| 09:17.17 | DomasTux | How do i get debian bullseye? |
| 09:17.47 | Haohmaru | don't you wanna wait till it comes out first? |
| 09:17.56 | DomasTux | No, i need the new kernel. |
| 09:18.08 | Haohmaru | !bullseye |
| 09:18.08 | dpkg | The release following Debian 10 "Buster" is codenamed "Bullseye" (Woody's horse in Toy Story 2) and will be Debian 11. It is the current "testing" release. Remember that testing is called testing for a reason; good bug reports with patches are greatly appreciated! https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBullseye https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2020/03/msg00002.html, or see <bullseye freeze> |
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| 09:18.42 | Haohmaru | you can get a newer kernel on debian stable via "backports" btw |
| 09:18.55 | DomasTux | oh. |
| 09:18.56 | DomasTux | cool. |
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| 09:28.37 | alive | What is the best way to get the latest Mesa libraries on Debian? |
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| 10:22.33 | quadrathoch2 | alive go to testing/sid |
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| 10:48.43 | premoboss | hello, i am tryin to TOTALY silent the boot message at startup. i already recompiled kernel to silet it more than pssible. but during vbbot, i still have message as "[ OK ] Started Network Time Synchronization." or "[ OK ] Started Update UTMP about System Boot/Shutdown.". I try to change parameters into /etc/systemd/system.conf but no wat to shout up those messages. somehone can give me suggestion? thanks? |
| 10:48.53 | premoboss | thanks* |
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| 11:02.32 | eb0t_ | hey my apt build is failing |
| 11:02.36 | eb0t_ | https://bpa.st/R6WA |
| 11:02.40 | eb0t_ | any ideas |
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| 11:08.11 | premoboss | eb0t_, it is read only sistem . fix it and made it read-write |
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| 11:09.31 | eb0t_ | hey premoboss i am root |
| 11:09.46 | eb0t_ | but how can my system change to readonly there are millons of directories |
| 11:09.53 | eb0t_ | do i need to change just 1 |
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| 11:10.42 | premoboss | mount -o remount,rw / |
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| 11:18.02 | eb0t_ | ill reboot first see if that helps as it had trouble with that command |
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| 11:22.55 | eb0t | hey i have rebooted debian and i have UNEXPECTED INCONSISTENCY ; RUN fsck manually |
| 11:23.05 | eb0t | fsck exited wiht status code 4 |
| 11:24.48 | eb0t | ok looks like i am sorting it ..fsck on the disk is now running |
| 11:28.48 | premoboss | eb0t, it seems you nasve problem on file system... if worse, the physical storage is damage. rebbot with a live distro adn do fsck on all partitions of yout storage device. |
| 11:29.28 | eb0t | yes ...the fsck has kind of fixed things...not sure how much yet ..but i think im gonna have to replace the disk |
| 11:29.31 | eb0t | soonish |
| 11:30.38 | ratrace | eb0t: you can check the SMART data for any indications of failure (noting that no indications doesn't mean it isn't failing). smartclt from smartmontools (--no-install-recommends to avoid halfa MTA installed if you don't want it) |
| 11:30.40 | premoboss | soonish is too late. if you care your data, as soon as fsck is done, shut down , reboot witha live cd, mount read-only the partition you want to backup and save them. |
| 11:31.10 | eb0t | no what i mean is that i have all files on a fileserver which is fine |
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| 11:31.26 | eb0t | so as long as i can boot and retrieve and do some work ill be ok for a good while |
| 11:32.23 | eb0t | so i have fileserve on different machine...backup on different machine also ...and then this machine is just an interface to use to work from |
| 11:32.33 | ratrace | keeping proper backups is always important. no backups == the data is not valuable. |
| 11:32.49 | eb0t | yes...i once lost everything a few years ago... |
| 11:32.57 | premoboss | ratrace, <3 |
| 11:33.01 | eb0t | since then i back up daily ..probably several times a day |
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| 11:33.58 | eb0t | there are only 2 types of people.....people who backup and people who have not yet had a devastating life changing failure |
| 11:34.04 | f-a | sudo vim /etc/inspircd/⥠â I would like this to expand to a file, but alas it does not even if the directory is populated |
| 11:34.16 | f-a | I am gonna steal this line, eb0t |
| 11:34.21 | eb0t | ha ha |
| 11:34.41 | eb0t | ive had my lifechanging failure and it is not ever going to happen again |
| 11:35.00 | f-a | how can I, simple user, get autocomplete on , say, /etc/ folders? |
| 11:36.28 | ratrace | f-a: bash-completions installed? |
| 11:36.41 | ratrace | *completion |
| 11:37.14 | f-a | ratrace: I think so, if I do `cat irâ¥` I get `cat irsomename.txt` |
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| 11:38.20 | ratrace | so then maybe you don't have permissions to ls into that folder |
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| 11:38.41 | ratrace | or it's empty |
| 11:38.43 | f-a | ratrace: definitely not I think, because I am not root? How can I get those? (if I can, that is) |
| 11:38.46 | f-a | not empty |
| 11:38.58 | ratrace | get what those? |
| 11:38.58 | f-a | bici@sally:~$ sudo ls /etc/inspircd/ |
| 11:38.59 | f-a | inspircd.conf inspircd.motd inspircd.rules |
| 11:39.07 | f-a | get permission to ls in that folder |
| 11:39.34 | f-a | it is a pain in the ass to navigate without autocomplete |
| 11:39.55 | ratrace | f-a: well what are permissions on that folder? they're probably like that for a reason. |
| 11:40.15 | ratrace | besides, what do you expect to do with running vim on a file inside /etc/ without being root? |
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| 11:40.43 | f-a | ratrace: I *sudo* vim |
| 11:40.57 | f-a | because I want to modify those |
| 11:41.13 | ratrace | ah I see. and with sudo vim, tabbing doesn't give you options? |
| 11:41.19 | f-a | nope |
| 11:41.47 | ratrace | right. well, check the permissions on the folder. tab completion is done _before_ sudo is executing vim, as your userr, so if your user doens't have permission to look into that folder, it won't autocomplete. |
| 11:42.30 | ratrace | alternatively run sudo -i to become proper root, and run vim on the files |
| 11:43.08 | f-a | oh |
| 11:43.16 | f-a | sudo -i, excellent, thanks |
| 11:43.53 | ratrace | sudo -i or su -l , same effect but different passwords asked. |
| 11:44.24 | f-a | I thought -l listed my avl commands |
| 11:44.29 | f-a | but -i works like a charm, thanks |
| 11:44.47 | ratrace | su -l, not sudo -l |
| 11:45.08 | ratrace | su(1) vs sudo(8) |
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| 11:54.08 | f-a | oh thanks I misread |
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| 12:01.34 | strk | would `dbpk -i <packagefile>` do the same thing that `apt install` would, in terms of system stability ? |
| 12:01.42 | strk | I mean: temporarely pausing services |
| 12:01.49 | strk | in paticular I need this for upgrading mailman |
| 12:01.54 | strk | to be sure no incoming mails are lost |
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| 12:03.22 | quadrathoch2 | strk you probably mean dpkg ;). afaik, mail is nice as it's trying to send over mails for multiple hours before it gives up. but read into that :/ there is just a distant memory |
| 12:03.33 | strk | dpkg, yes |
| 12:03.33 | dpkg | i don't know, strk |
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| 12:20.06 | Razva | hello. I've just finished installing Debian LXQT, everything is fine, except the fact that networking is managed by "connman". Never used it before. |
| 12:20.22 | Razva | How can I remove "connman" and go back to the "normal" /etc/network/interfaces settings? |
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| 12:21.30 | ksk | :) |
| 12:22.19 | ksk | Razva: what does "apt-get remove conman" give you? If it does not lead to "LXQT" components being removed, you might be good to go (and end up without networking) |
| 12:22.51 | Razva | yeah, just removed it and rebooted, I'm curious if I'll have networking :) |
| 12:23.27 | Razva | yyyyyyyyyyyup, it seems fine |
| 12:23.41 | ksk | In general: If package connman would have provided the critical service "networking", and you then remove it, apt would install another package fitting that role automagicly |
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| 12:26.59 | Razva | got it. just for my info, what's the "default" networking stack? because it's not network-manager |
| 12:27.20 | quadrathoch2 | Razva ifupdown |
| 12:27.44 | Razva | ok, so basically ifupdown is the stack that uses /etc/network/interfaces correct? |
| 12:27.57 | Razva | (taking notes in my wiki) |
| 12:28.08 | quadrathoch2 | yup |
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| 12:34.37 | Razva | it's the first time I'm installing Debian with a UI other than GNOME, LXQT seems very fast/lite |
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| 12:45.00 | Haohmaru | coz it is |
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| 13:10.00 | Lope | can I install debian rootfs on f2fs? |
| 13:10.09 | Lope | will cryptsetup etc handle it? |
| 13:10.18 | Lope | cryptsetup initramfs grub etc |
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| 13:12.36 | ksk | Lope: taking a basic look at f2fs, it does seem to me, that "cryptsetup" is not the right approach here |
| 13:12.53 | ksk | "Since Linux 4.2, F2FS natively supports file encryption. Encryption is applied at the directory level, [snip]" |
| 13:13.09 | Lope | ksk, I prefer luks |
| 13:13.23 | ksk | and, from my limited knowledge of "hwardware", that makes totally sense, cuz you want to minimize writes to the SDcard.. |
| 13:13.47 | Lope | do you reckon f2fs would cause increased writes? |
| 13:14.04 | ratrace | it's supposed to be _friendly_ to flash |
| 13:14.08 | ksk | Adding luks will most likely, compared to an "per directory" encryption, yes. |
| 13:14.18 | ratrace | ksk: well that's really false |
| 13:14.20 | Lope | ratrace, sorry, I meant combining luks with f2fs |
| 13:14.36 | ratrace | LUKS without --integrity adds absolutely nothing to the plaintext, and ciphertext is same size |
| 13:14.49 | Lope | ratrace, that's what I thought. |
| 13:14.52 | Lope | it's block for block. |
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| 13:15.22 | ratrace | the only "overhead" is in actual encryption, which is CPU bound and with every modern CPU having AESNI, the default aes cipher will be far far faster than your sata3 6gbps can put through |
| 13:16.05 | ratrace | (ie LUKS can saturate sata3 just fine) |
| 13:16.37 | Razva | what do you think about VeraCrypt? |
| 13:18.10 | ratrace | never really used it, LUKS works for all my needs |
| 13:18.58 | ratrace | bbl, lunch |
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| 13:23.44 | ksk | ratrace: I cannot deny anything of what you said - but what would then be the reason for having an "In filesystem encryption", if not for performance? *confused* |
| 13:24.33 | ksk | Razva: Regarding Veracrypt: It was forked off Truecrypt, and that project ended in a really strange state. /tinfoil-hat |
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| 13:24.57 | Razva | "strange state" ? |
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| 13:26.19 | Lope | damn. I just hosed one of my computers. |
| 13:26.32 | ksk | It was discontinued by the unknown authors, with the remark "WARNING: Using TrueCrypt is not secure as it may contain unfixed security issues." - see the webz. |
| 13:26.47 | Lope | The one that I was setting up the other debian install on a flash drive from. |
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| 13:27.20 | Lope | I had gotten interrupted a bunch of times. Came back and forgot that dev proc sys and boot were chrooted. |
| 13:27.46 | oiaohm | Razva: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueCrypt The ceasing of development of TrueCrypt was not handled that well. |
| 13:27.48 | Lope | So I repeated the rsync command just to see how fast it would compare the meta-data etc. which included a --delete and --delete-excluded |
| 13:27.52 | Lope | hosed the whole PC hahahahahaha |
| 13:27.53 | Lope | fuck |
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| 13:28.21 | oiaohm | Razva: and the Veracrypt following code audit when they took over found quite a few problems. |
| 13:28.24 | Lope | nothing on it but still a waste of time. it's one of these microsoft devices with special backdoor partitions that have to be there or it won't boot. |
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| 13:30.25 | oiaohm | ksk: to be correct the message "is not secure as it may contain unfixed security issues." text is one of the historic standard texts for a security project coming non maintained. That line of text is older than TrueCrypt. |
| 13:31.16 | oiaohm | Sometimes recycling odd style messages are not suitable for current time and just cause confusion. |
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| 13:35.45 | Razva | Pihole - checked. OpenVPN - checked. Plex - checked. Ouroboros - checked. LetsEncrypt + nginx = checked. |
| 13:35.59 | Razva | Well, that's it I guess... I'm not doing NextCloud on this setup. |
| 13:39.54 | ksk | oiaohm: oh, that is an interesting remark. So that message containing three words which staring letters make up "N S A " is not a hidden message? :P |
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| 14:18.58 | Lope | hey guys can you please help me with getting my surface pro 2 to boot linux again? |
| 14:19.05 | oiaohm | ksk: there are other project discontuine messages contained three word starting with N. S. A. So that could be luck. |
| 14:19.07 | Lope | I accidentally deleted my EFI partition's files. |
| 14:19.46 | Lope | I've got the surface pro 2 windows recovery zip file that has EFI directories in it, which I've copied back into the efi partition. |
| 14:19.58 | Lope | But grub install complains when I try install grub |
| 14:20.32 | Lope | warning: cannot read efi boot* variables |
| 14:20.47 | Lope | warening read_file: could not read from file Input/output error |
| 14:21.28 | Lope | warning: vars_get_variable: read_file(/sys/firmware/efi/vars/Boot0001 blah blah/raw_var: IO error |
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| 14:29.46 | ratrace | ksk: "in filesystem encryption" permits per directory or per file, not better performance, in fact if anything, it's worse due to mapping overhead |
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| 14:38.27 | ksk | thanks. |
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| 14:59.29 | Razva | I'm trying to install lxqt on a new (other system) but I'm getting "Unable to locate package lxqt". Any hints? Am I missing a repo maybe...? |
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| 15:00.48 | quadrathoch2 | Razva do you want to have lxqt the debian intended way? |
| 15:00.57 | Razva | yes please |
| 15:01.06 | quadrathoch2 | Razva task-lxqt-desktop |
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| 15:01.23 | Razva | same result |
| 15:01.50 | Razva | please note that the install was bare-bones with no internet access |
| 15:02.02 | Haohmaru | aww |
| 15:02.05 | quadrathoch2 | Razva did you apt update? |
| 15:02.12 | Razva | I've already made apt-get update and apt-get upgrade after connecting to the internet |
| 15:02.19 | Haohmaru | check your sources.list |
| 15:02.26 | quadrathoch2 | yeah |
| 15:03.23 | Razva | I have deb ... debian-security buster/updates main |
| 15:03.31 | Razva | and deb-src [same as above] |
| 15:03.49 | quadrathoch2 | Razva could you paste your sources to paste.debian.org and give us the link? |
| 15:03.53 | Razva | should I add buster-updates as well? |
| 15:04.10 | Haohmaru | !sources.list |
| 15:04.10 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main", and optionally "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <buster/updates> <buster-updates> and "man sources.list". |
| 15:04.27 | Razva | Here's the file: https://www.screencast.com/t/X80KKnLmo |
| 15:04.46 | Haohmaru | very annorexic |
| 15:04.47 | quadrathoch2 | yeah there is a lot missing |
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| 15:04.59 | Razva | yup, that's the minimal USB install without internet |
| 15:05.30 | Razva | should I add these: |
| 15:05.30 | Razva | deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main |
| 15:05.30 | Razva | deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main |
| 15:05.30 | Razva | deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main |
| 15:05.39 | quadrathoch2 | yeah |
| 15:06.07 | jelly | Razva: yu don't have to add security again |
| 15:06.15 | Razva | yup |
| 15:06.21 | Brigo | !sources.list |
| 15:06.21 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main", and optionally "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <buster/updates> <buster-updates> and "man sources.list". |
| 15:06.36 | jelly | just the main repo and -updates |
| 15:06.58 | Razva | do I need deb-src for `debian-security`? |
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| 15:07.32 | jelly | deb-src is useful only at the moment you want to grab some sources and rebuild or look at them |
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| 15:07.41 | Razva | I won't do that so I'll comment it |
| 15:08.07 | jelly | it doesn't hurt, but commenting it out will speed up apt update a bit. |
| 15:08.38 | Razva | this is the new one: https://www.screencast.com/t/ngDRy9zmz |
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| 15:09.15 | Razva | oook, executed update and upgrade |
| 15:09.46 | Razva | I'm ready a lot about lxqt vs xfce. The idea is that this machine will be used in order to run Firefox, LibreOffice and Telegram. And that's it. |
| 15:10.10 | Razva | It has plenty of RAM and CPU, but I see no reason to install a full-blown KDE/GNOME. |
| 15:10.21 | Razva | So...should I go with Xfce or LXQT? |
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| 15:10.56 | Razva | A lot of threads insist that the vast majority of apps are written for GTK not for QT and that the user might have issues with LXQT. |
| 15:11.01 | Haohmaru | there's also LXDE btw |
| 15:11.02 | quadrathoch2 | it's a preference honestly, xfce builds ontop of gtk and lxqt on Qt. I do like xfce more as it's mature, lxqt is still in development |
| 15:11.04 | Razva | What do you think? |
| 15:11.16 | jelly | try one, use it for a couple weeks, then try the other |
| 15:11.45 | jelly | gtk apps WILL work on a Qt DE and vice versa. |
| 15:11.53 | Razva | ok |
| 15:12.05 | Razva | it seems that the majority of users prefer xfce |
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| 15:12.09 | jelly | xfce is still on gtk2 and most apps should be on gtk3 by now |
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| 15:13.10 | Razva | will xfce install all the bloatware like gimp etc? |
| 15:13.16 | quadrathoch2 | jelly welp bullseye will have gtk3 xfce |
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| 15:13.21 | jelly | good |
| 15:13.30 | quadrathoch2 | Razva afaik no |
| 15:13.38 | Razva | good goood |
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| 15:14.28 | quadrathoch2 | afaik only libreoffice as one of the bigger apps Razva |
| 15:15.44 | jelly | amusingly task-kde-desktop and task-mate-desktop have a Recommends: gimp, but xfce task does not, in Debian 10 |
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| 15:23.53 | Razva | if anybody is interested: lxqt installs 1283 packages totaling 3231 MB of space, while xfce installs 1106 packages totaling 2544 MB of space |
| 15:24.34 | Razva | I'm going with Xfce just because most users seem to do so... |
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| 15:28.41 | ratrace | [citation needed for "most"] |
| 15:28.55 | EdePopede | on my PC 100% of users! |
| 15:29.29 | ratrace | on my 0%, so that's 50% on average. StatisticsAbuseFriday(tm) |
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| 15:30.34 | Razva | well I'm on KDE so I'm at 0% right now :) |
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| 15:35.23 | ratrace | that only swings in favor against xfce. that's 2:1, no xfce so far, which makes it 33% of users using xfce, by polls so far. not really "most" :) |
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| 15:36.22 | ratrace | c'mon, this is MORE trustworthy statistics than Trum's! and he's a president of a whole country! |
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| 15:39.02 | EdePopede | is multibootusb a good method to create a multibootstick from debian? installed it from upstream then the few dependencies and at least it starts. |
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| 15:43.39 | Lope | So I accidentally erased my EFI partition. Messing with this EFI stuff is new to me. Previously I had just left what Microsoft had left there and grub seemed to know what to do with it. |
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| 15:44.44 | Lope | Rather than nuking my whole linux installation etc overwriting it with windows and then using some linux installer etc. I decided to try the linux tools. rfind-install and the normal grub efi stuff. |
| 15:45.10 | Lope | The good news is update-grub runs without errors now, and grub actually boots. |
| 15:45.42 | Lope | the bad news is the only item in my grub menu is "System setup" which goes to the hardware UEFI system setup screen. |
| 15:45.48 | Lope | No kernels etc are listed. |
| 15:46.04 | Lope | But I just realised I need to reinstall my kernel packages so that they get populated in my /boot |
| 15:46.08 | Lope | then it'll probably work. |
| 15:46.29 | jelly | EdePopede: there is no "good" method to make d-i boot other than writing it on the whole stick. The code is a bit fragile and it may fail to find the iso in many cases. |
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| 15:47.14 | EdePopede | while it's a good thing to create an installer it's not so good for a collection :/ |
| 15:47.16 | jelly | EdePopede: which is why we warn people to avoid using tools that mess with the image |
| 15:47.35 | Razva | Iiiiii think I like LXQT better than Xfce. |
| 15:47.49 | Razva | Xfce looks really...dunno...XP-ish. |
| 15:47.50 | ksk | heresy. |
| 15:47.52 | EdePopede | not sure what it does, i have a few tools in the list. though i wouldn't mind using grub-whatever cli if it's also possible |
| 15:47.52 | jelly | Razva: too soon! Use it for a couple WEEKS |
| 15:48.23 | jelly | don't discount a DE based on the default theme, all of them have different themes and layouts |
| 15:48.34 | *** join/#debian jaren999 (~cyr4x3@139.47.121.51) |
| 15:48.42 | Razva | true |
| 15:48.43 | EdePopede | jelly: throwing the iso into the fs and having grub pointing to it should generally work? |
| 15:48.51 | jelly | EdePopede: no. |
| 15:48.54 | Razva | can I install a "theme" or something that doesn't look so dated? |
| 15:49.15 | jelly | Razva: there are at least a dozen themes already present. |
| 15:49.18 | jelly | in xfce. |
| 15:49.36 | jelly | and that's just for the window manager chrome (stuff around the windows) |
| 15:49.43 | ratrace | theme or not, xfce really does feel like xp, cheap, reeking of cigars and whiskey, with a lotta hype over not much :) |
| 15:50.01 | jelly | what hype? |
| 15:50.09 | ratrace | "debian xfce" hype |
| 15:50.32 | jelly | it has working basic functionality, and you can make it look nice -- that is, like 2000 and not xp. |
| 15:50.44 | jelly | there's debian xfce hype? |
| 15:50.52 | ratrace | mmmh hmm. |
| 15:50.59 | jelly | news to me |
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| 15:51.30 | Razva | is there any place where I could download "themes"? |
| 15:51.31 | *** join/#debian fachinformatiker (~fachinfor@fsf/member/fachinformatiker) |
| 15:51.48 | ratrace | well the same hype caused people to claim xfce is most used DE on debian, QED above :) |
| 15:52.07 | jelly | Razva: did you find the existing ones in control panel, er, xfce4-system-settings |
| 15:52.21 | Lope | ratrace, any ideas? I've purged linux-image-amd64 and installed it again |
| 15:52.22 | jelly | ratrace: never heard of that |
| 15:52.29 | Lope | but still no kernels etc in /boot |
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| 15:53.04 | ratrace | Lope: that's a metapackage, reinstall the proper versioned package |
| 15:53.06 | Razva | yeah, all look kinda "the same", basically the buttons don't change only the color |
| 15:53.09 | Lope | /boot got accidentally wiped previously. |
| 15:53.25 | Lope | ratrace, aaah, i forgot to autoremove |
| 15:53.26 | Lope | thanks bud |
| 15:53.51 | ratrace | jelly: just step into the phoronix cesspoo^W forum, stay a while. Get your vaccines first, that place is..... filthy :) |
| 15:54.03 | jelly | Razva: that's just colors, in a different place I think. I'm on KDE right now, not sure if firing out xfce4-system-settings is going to work |
| 15:54.34 | jelly | xfce4-settings-manager ! |
| 15:54.42 | Razva | yeah I found those settings but only 2 or 3 change the "looks" (from XP to 95), the rest just change the colors |
| 15:54.42 | jelly | see, I don't even remember how it's called |
| 15:54.55 | Lope | After this mistake, I'm going to be mounting my /boot/efi as ro |
| 15:55.01 | Lope | and probably also /boot |
| 15:55.12 | Lope | then just script it's remounting with my updates. |
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| 15:55.33 | Razva | isn't /boot/efi already ro? |
| 15:55.39 | jelly | Razva: see under Window Manager |
| 15:55.53 | ratrace | Lope: then don't moount them at all. they're only needed for update-grub and update-initramfs triggers later |
| 15:55.55 | jelly | perhaps |
| 15:56.03 | Razva | jelly: ah, found it, thanks |
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| 15:56.33 | Lope | ratrace, are you saying that I should mount them automagically for those triggers |
| 15:56.37 | ratrace | Lope: yeah, no, you're right, ro mount sounds better. |
| 15:56.48 | Lope | yeah, I like a good ro |
| 15:56.53 | Lope | then you can see what's up. |
| 15:57.16 | jelly | Lope: do you not have backups for this system? |
| 15:57.46 | ratrace | Lope: you can have DPkg::Pre-Invoke and ::Post-Invoke /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/something triggers do that, but that's gonna remount them on every apt action |
| 15:57.53 | Lope | it's not my workstation, it's a experimental laptop. |
| 15:58.27 | ratrace | Lope: for example I use those triggers to remount /tmp (no)exec. Stupid apt needs /tmp exec ....... |
| 15:58.35 | ratrace | actually dpkg does, not apt specifically. |
| 15:58.59 | Lope | ratrace, well my upgrade is scripted, so I can remount for every upgrade |
| 15:59.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1196] by debhelper |
| 15:59.18 | Lope | although actually, some installs cause an initramfs-update to happen. |
| 15:59.21 | jelly | ratrace: hmm! apt might benefit from a private tmp there. |
| 15:59.31 | Lope | So I suppose it should happen for apt install as well as apt upgrade |
| 15:59.48 | ratrace | jelly: like a namespace similar to what systemd does? indeed. |
| 15:59.52 | Lope | ratrace, lol. now that I think about it. apt remove can also cause it. |
| 15:59.56 | ratrace | an unshare just for the apt run. |
| 16:00.00 | Lope | so basically anything other than apt update. |
| 16:00.28 | ratrace | Lope: an install of <apparently unrelated> package could trigger update-grub or update-initramfs. |
| 16:00.44 | ratrace | really just remount it on each apt run. a derpkg::post|pre-invoke does it |
| 16:02.14 | Lope | Amazing, looks like I fixed this surface pro 2. |
| 16:02.34 | Lope | Now it's totally devoid of microsoft binaries on the SSD. |
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| 16:02.41 | ratrace | Lope: xcept in the ROM :))) |
| 16:03.05 | Lope | A little side benefit of accidentally destroying the system with rsync because I forgot proc dev sys was bind mounted. |
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| 16:03.33 | samuelrajan747 | I updated a xenial to focal by running sed on the sources.list, does that method has any known issues? I also took care of other ppa files inder sources.d. |
| 16:04.34 | Lope | ratrace, hey! don't remind me! |
| 16:04.38 | jelly | samuelrajan747: this is not #ubuntu |
| 16:05.11 | samuelrajan747 | Yeah but debian also uses the same concepts for repo, thats why asking |
| 16:05.13 | Lope | ah, that's lame. I forgot to reinstall initramfs-zfs meh :( |
| 16:05.27 | ratrace | samuelrajan747: no |
| 16:05.27 | jelly | samuelrajan747: this channel is for Debian, not apt or dpkg, sorry |
| 16:05.40 | Lope | it's quite a hassle every time getting everything ready in the live USB |
| 16:05.49 | ratrace | Lope: zfs-initramfs |
| 16:06.05 | samuelrajan747 | jelly: thanks, have a nice day |
| 16:06.07 | n4dir | this way or that way sources.list doesn't mind how you edit it. Probably any text file doesn't mind. |
| 16:06.16 | jelly | samuelrajan747: optimal release upgrade procedures WILL be distro dependent in any case, so best read the distro docs |
| 16:06.24 | Lope | ah, yeah :) |
| 16:06.48 | samuelrajan747 | ok |
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| 16:08.06 | karlpinc | n4dir: There's probably a MS Windows editor you can use that will do bad things because of byte order marks. |
| 16:08.32 | n4dir | karlpinc: see. You always oversee something. Yeah, i heard such. thanks |
| 16:08.59 | ksk | notepad++ is a reasonable useful editor on windows, afaik it can also "save as linux" or so.. |
| 16:09.27 | n4dir | vim is a reasonable useful editor on windows too :-) |
| 16:09.37 | ksk | Haha. |
| 16:11.09 | ratrace | ksk: yes it has three different EOLs. \n, \r\n and just \r (apparently, macs, and of course macs, whoelse) |
| 16:11.22 | Razva | ooooooooooook, I'll try lxqt on the same machine to have an idea about the speed difference |
| 16:11.45 | Razva | how can I totally remove xfce and install lxqt? just `apt-get remove task-xfce-desktop` ? |
| 16:12.13 | ratrace | no, afaik there's no such single task or action, wish there would be. |
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| 16:12.54 | ratrace | you could try remove lxqt specific packages (with lxqt in the name), install xfce task, and then whatever orphans remain you could autoremove them or whatev |
| 16:13.35 | ksk | Razva: you can create a list of packages "xfce*"; check them manually, then feed them to "apt-get remove" |
| 16:14.14 | ratrace | and hell, I said the other way around. yes, remove xfce, install lxqt-... |
| 16:16.38 | Razva | ok I'll just reinstall and call it a day :) |
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| 16:20.45 | Razva | btw I'm just curious, why did Debian lost "traction" on the webhosting stuff? Like...cPanel...Plesk etc |
| 16:20.53 | Razva | everything is on CentOS/RH |
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| 16:22.28 | jelly | commerical control panel solutions supplant and partly replace the distro |
| 16:23.15 | ksk | Razva: I can only think of RHEL being even more stale than Debian - and that would be a good thing for Plesk and such |
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| 16:23.35 | ksk | Maybe with the bonus that they heavily backport kernel features. |
| 16:23.50 | n4dir | xfce is so small, i wouldn't even bother removing it. But then: task-xfce has quite an amount |
| 16:24.10 | jelly | Razva: https://docs.plesk.com/release-notes/obsidian/software-requirements/#s2-1 |
| 16:24.12 | samuelrajan747 | n4dir: use swaywm |
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| 16:24.28 | jelly | Razva: what's on top of the supported Linux OS list? |
| 16:25.21 | Razva | jelly: yeah, nobody is using Debian in the wh industry. |
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| 16:25.44 | jelly | if nobody used it they wouldn't bother supporting it |
| 16:25.49 | ksk | Razva: your last statement is not true, I can vouch for that :P |
| 16:26.04 | Razva | ksk: oh, congrats! |
| 16:26.21 | ratrace | ehh Plesk supports Debian (and derivatives). only cPanel limited itself to centos. |
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| 16:26.34 | Razva | I'm an old-timer in the wh industry (as a sales person) and 99% of the stuff I was/am selling is CentOS or RH (or CloudLinux). |
| 16:26.35 | jelly | but centos is basically the lowest common denominator, RHEL for people who can't or don't want to pay support |
| 16:26.39 | ratrace | also.... we're in wh industry, we use debian. so not "nobody" :) |
| 16:27.15 | Razva | I'm happy that more people use Debian, I have a "crush" for this Distro from my "younger age" |
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| 16:27.27 | ratrace | (we use Debian and Gentoo) |
| 16:27.39 | samuelrajan747 | I use arch, gentoo |
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| 16:27.46 | Razva | Wooowee. Didn't touched a Gentoo or a Slack for like...10+ years. |
| 16:28.24 | jelly | Razva: people you're selling to probably don't care which distro is underneath; Debian however provides a more decent, or at the very least a MUCH wider platform than CentOS if you're building a specific solution |
| 16:29.04 | ratrace | cPanel changes that a bit tho, with its own compiling and installation of stuffs like php, mysql, ... |
| 16:29.23 | ratrace | (ie it brings to centos the width that in itself it's missing, even with epel) |
| 16:29.24 | Razva | jelly: most shared-hosting customers have no understanding on what a "webhosting account" involves, they just want "a fast server and lots of email space". |
| 16:29.47 | ratrace | but now! .... ther'es centos streams. haven't tried them out yet, but that's supposed to bring extra, extra width to centos and clones and even RHEL |
| 16:29.57 | Razva | cPanel switched from compilation to rpms 3-4 years ago, finally. |
| 16:30.32 | ratrace | oh? shows how much I'm in the loop with it then |
| 16:30.48 | jelly | Razva: if I were put in control of $work web hosting, I'd migrate all the old centos 6 plesk stuff to debian 10 plesk stuff in a jiffy |
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| 16:31.14 | Razva | well...it's complicated... |
| 16:31.35 | Razva | the market is using cPanel, and it'll keep using it |
| 16:31.55 | jelly | with plesk, it's really not. Tools automate most migration bits, including dns, ip addresses. |
| 16:31.56 | Razva | 'till big fishes like Godaddy and Hostgator etc do their own CPs...cPanel will thrive |
| 16:32.22 | Razva | Plesk and cPanel are owned by the same corp, and they get more and more and more expensive. |
| 16:32.42 | Razva | they are basically canibalising the market, they even bought Solus and transformed it into a SaaS. |
| 16:32.50 | jelly | the whole of wh business is a bit of a race to the bottom |
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| 16:33.14 | jelly | Razva: noone is stopping you from making your own control panel ;-) |
| 16:33.32 | ksk | mhm there was a polish corp offering their panel, and also offering hosting on it. wonder if they survived, mhhm. |
| 16:33.55 | ratrace | we have our own control panel. our clients don't even know what a control panel is :) we do managed hosting. |
| 16:33.56 | jelly | it looks deceptively simple |
| 16:34.14 | ratrace | I concur. |
| 16:34.48 | Razva | well, us, small sellers, have no better alternative than just "go with the flow". some mid-sized companies tried to make their own CPs and...yeah...it's "ok-ish", but none of them wants to share/sell their work after paying tons of money |
| 16:35.07 | ratrace | you may think it's easy, you just ahve some db, some users, a bit of postfix config, db config, dns.... but.... under the hood there's a LOT going on especially if you wanna do it properly with proper privsep in place and not vector into root through http |
| 16:35.07 | Razva | I sell only unmanaged/cheapo |
| 16:35.49 | Razva | exactly, it's *not* simple at all, we've tried once and when we've made the calculations...heh...it was like...6 months profit... |
| 16:36.20 | ratrace | on the other hand, 100% control, much better security, ... |
| 16:37.09 | Razva | I've convinced about ~200 clients to move to plesk, but the vast majority (~2000) didn't agreed, even after receiving a 50% discount for the first year. they just didn't wanted to switch because "it was too different and missed a lot of features" (which it doesn't, they are just in different places) |
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| 16:37.50 | Razva | heck, even today we're receiving tickets from Plesk users complaining that they cannot use java/tomcat apps and they want to go back to Plesk |
| 16:37.54 | jelly | Razva: customers don't like change. They'll invent reasons after the fact. |
| 16:38.03 | Razva | yup |
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| 16:38.44 | Razva | the only solution is to find an alternative and sell it to new customers. old customers usually upgrade, so a new cp can be upsold. but that takes time. |
| 16:39.00 | Razva | and as long as I can't find a decent cPanel alternative...well...:\ |
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| 16:39.25 | Razva | ratrace: can you share a screenshot? I'm curious :D |
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| 16:40.16 | ratrace | Razva: no, it's our internal thing. our customers have no access to it. |
| 16:40.23 | Razva | ah ok |
| 16:40.33 | Razva | so your customers don't have access to any kind of control panel? |
| 16:43.50 | rootkea | Hello! I just installed Debian 10. I see networking.service failing with "Failed to start Raise network interfaces" message in boot log. Here's the relevant log from `journalctl -xb`: https://pastebin.com/raw/U66QCiXZ |
| 16:44.15 | ratrace | Razva: they have some very limited access into their account where they see billing and stats and features activated |
| 16:44.23 | rootkea | From he log it seems this is related to interface renaming? |
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| 16:44.53 | rootkea | How do I fix this and should this be fixed already in fresh install? |
| 16:44.56 | jelly | rootkea: pastebin the output of "ip l" or tell us what your iface is actually called right now, and whether it exist |
| 16:44.59 | jelly | s |
| 16:45.04 | rootkea | s/should/shouldn't |
| 16:45.18 | jelly | "shouldn't happen" |
| 16:47.18 | rootkea | jelly, ip -l o/p https://pastebin.com/raw/2DrwRBzZ |
| 16:48.39 | jelly | thank you for providing a /raw/ link! |
| 16:49.12 | rootkea | :) |
| 16:49.56 | jelly | rootkea: it is interesting that debian-installer configured with an iface named "eth0" and that probably deserves a bug report, but the workaround is simple: replace eth0 with enp1s0 in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 16:49.56 | Lope | Hey guys, I'm chrooted from ubuntu with 5.4 kernel to fix my debian system, the debian kernel is a different version number |
| 16:50.10 | Lope | dkms is trying to build looking in /lib/modules for the wrong kernel version |
| 16:50.24 | Lope | how can I make dkms use the chrooted kernel version? |
| 16:50.44 | jelly | Lope: dkms tool has command line options. |
| 16:51.03 | Razva | Lope: don't take my word on this, but wouldn't it be more time-effective to just reinstall everything? save your files on an external drive and start over |
| 16:51.13 | Lope | jelly, I'm not running dkms directly, I just did apt remove --purge zfsutils-linux; apt install zfs-utils linux |
| 16:51.21 | rootkea | jelly, I used debian-live-10.6.0-amd64-xfce+nonfree.iso. Where should I report the bug? Against which package? calamares? |
| 16:51.24 | Lope | cos my kernel modules r missing on the chrooted system. |
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| 16:51.54 | Lope | Razva, a prefer to learn. |
| 16:51.54 | ratrace | Lope: I told you how in #zfsonlinux |
| 16:52.27 | jelly | rootkea: huh. If the live image uses calamares as installer and not d-i, then yes. I have no idea how installing from live works. |
| 16:52.39 | jelly | rootkea: actually, there's a better way |
| 16:52.42 | jelly | !installation report |
| 16:52.42 | dpkg | from memory, installation report is http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s04#submit-bug |
| 16:55.19 | rootkea | jelly, /etc/network/interfaces has single line "source-directory /etc/network/interfaces.d". So guess I should edit /etc/network/interfaces.d/setup which has "eth0" twice? |
| 16:55.45 | jelly | rootkea: yes |
| 16:56.22 | jelly | rootkea: can you pastebin that file before doing changes btw? |
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| 16:58.04 | rootkea | jelly, sure. Here it is: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s04#submit-bug |
| 16:58.16 | rootkea | Oops |
| 16:58.22 | rootkea | https://pastebin.com/raw/q1JyHy3M |
| 17:00.09 | Razva | rootkea are you using LXQT? I had the exact same issue 6 hours ago :) |
| 17:00.19 | rootkea | xfce |
| 17:00.34 | jelly | that's a pretty standard default config |
| 17:00.52 | Razva | yeah, do you have connman installed? if yes, just `apt-get remove connman` and reboot |
| 17:01.24 | Razva | folks here's a question. is there any way to make a realvnc/tightvnc/realvnc connection as snappy as a RDP? |
| 17:01.25 | jelly | Razva: that's not going to change the incorrect file. |
| 17:01.27 | rootkea | jelly, So shouldn't eth0 been renamed already in interfaces.d/setup? |
| 17:01.39 | jelly | rootkea: it shouldn't have been named "eth0" in the first place. |
| 17:02.06 | Razva | jelly: yeah, my issue this morning was that basically connman was ignoring any settings I was making in `interfaces` and I had no idea what was going on :) |
| 17:02.38 | jelly | Razva: this user has ifupdown working, as seen in logs. |
| 17:02.41 | rootkea | jelly, So should I go ahead with renaming eth0 as you suggested? |
| 17:02.46 | jelly | rootkea: yes. |
| 17:03.09 | Razva | ^ regarding my question. Same machine, remote screen crawls on Xfce/Lxqt but was almost "instant" (like local) with RDP. nothing changed regarding hardware/networking/etc. |
| 17:04.14 | Razva | It's a KVM VM. Do I need to install any extra stuff, similar with qemu-tools? |
| 17:04.22 | jelly | Razva: rdp is a better protocol than vnc; that said there are lots of extensions for vnc to make things better but most free linux vnc servers seem to not implement them |
| 17:06.35 | Razva | I'm now trying RealVNC, because - from my findings - it's the most widely used commercial product, but it's way way slower compared with rdp |
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| 17:07.35 | rootkea | jelly, I report that the issue is fixed now. Thanks! Now let me read that link on reporting installation report... |
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| 17:09.25 | jelly | rootkea: my wild-ass guess is that for some reason live cd boots with a boot parameter that disables "predictable interface names" |
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| 17:10.00 | jelly | and the installer then works in an environment that has "eth0" instead of "enSomething" |
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| 17:15.27 | jelly | debian-live-10.6.0-amd64-xfce+nonfree.iso 4%[=> ] 123.66M 8.37MB/s eta 5m 18s # so slow! |
| 17:15.52 | jelly | cheats with lftp and pget |
| 17:16.19 | jelly | there we go. |
| 17:16.31 | ratrace | lftp! |
| 17:16.36 | rootkea | jelly, Earlier I experienced a bug with cryptsetup in 10 live image and reported the same against calamares |
| 17:17.12 | blurkis | why did debian drop ifconfig for ip command? That decision went over my head, and I just cant get the hang of using ip command, hahahaha |
| 17:17.14 | rootkea | Guess there are lot of differences between default and live iso installation |
| 17:18.14 | quadrathoch2 | blurkis because ifconfig is deprecated, nobody wanted to take over |
| 17:18.17 | another | net-tools been deprecated for more than a decade |
| 17:18.33 | quadrathoch2 | Ahh that was the name of the package |
| 17:18.42 | jelly | blurkis: Debian caught up with changes made 20 years ago, around kernel 2.4 when "ip" appeared and net-tools (ifconfig) got deprecated |
| 17:19.50 | jelly | blurkis: "ip a" is shorter than "ifconfig -a"! |
| 17:20.17 | rootkea | I have another startup service systemd-backlight@backlight:intel_backlight.service failing with "Failed to start Load/Save" Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:intel_backlight." Here's the relevant log from journalctl -xb: https://pastebin.com/raw/B8WxFLEB |
| 17:20.20 | jelly | you can still install net-tools if you want them. They are maintained again for some reason. |
| 17:20.44 | rootkea | Though I used live+non-free image maybe I need to install intel graphics driver? |
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| 17:21.10 | jelly | rootkea: you already have the intel graphics driver. |
| 17:21.16 | rootkea | The brightness is at max on each login |
| 17:21.42 | jelly | rootkea: perhaps there's a way to save the brightness once explicitely. |
| 17:22.27 | rootkea | I use Power Manager plugin from xfce4-panel and the hotkeys to control brightness |
| 17:22.27 | jelly | or perhaps your hardware needs specific quirks to make the standard backlight api work |
| 17:22.59 | jelly | older thinkpads used to have their own /proc/acpi/ibm/brightness |
| 17:24.13 | rootkea | This is Lenovo Ideapad. May be it also uses similar mechanism |
| 17:25.03 | jelly | I'd randomly try a newer kernel from backports and see if there's any change |
| 17:25.12 | jelly | !bpo kernel |
| 17:25.13 | dpkg | Newer kernels for Debian stable releases are available from the <buster-backports> repository. After modifying your sources.list, run «apt update». To install the current backported kernel: «apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`». To list available backported kernel image packages: «aptitude search '?narrow(~nlinux-image,?origin(Debian Backports))'». |
| 17:25.52 | jelly | esp. if it's a model from this year or last |
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| 17:31.51 | blurkis | jelly: for sure. "ip a" is shorter. but ifconfig is whats stuck in my old dinobrain. Relearning seems to be impossible, *sigh* |
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| 17:33.48 | rootkea | installing backport kernel now. I'll report whether this fixes the issue |
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| 17:34.19 | jelly | blurkis: let me prepare a rocking chair and a walking stick for you to wave at younguns menacingly |
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| 17:34.50 | blurkis | jelly: soo kind of you dear, :) |
| 17:35.15 | jelly | rootkea: if you use any firmware\* packages, make sure to install those from backports as well |
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| 17:37.28 | Pinchiukas | When are certbot renewal hooks supposed to be executed? |
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| 17:39.49 | EvanCarroll | how does a package get into Debian Testing? |
| 17:40.39 | n4dir | As far i know it comes from Unstable. But that is not what you asked for? |
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| 17:41.10 | n4dir | kinda like: 10 days in unstable, and if no according bug is reported, it goes into testing. As said: kinda |
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| 17:41.45 | n4dir | !RFP |
| 17:41.45 | dpkg | Request For Package (RFP) is the way to ask for a piece of software to be included in Debian. See http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp, the section on that page "Adding new entries with "reportbug"" is a good place to start. Technically, a RFP is a wishlist bug filed against "wnpp" with a title beginning "RFP: ", ask me about <wnpp>. The best way of getting software packaged is to do it yourself: ask me about <nmg>. |
| 17:41.47 | petn-randall | EvanCarroll: It first gets uploaded by a maintainer to unstable, and if there are no release-critical bugs found it will usually migrate to testing after 10 days. It can be quicker for urgent packages, and slower if a library migration blocks it. |
| 17:42.03 | EvanCarroll | n4dir: so then the hold up on everything is getting it into unstable. |
| 17:42.05 | EvanCarroll | That's fair. |
| 17:42.31 | EvanCarroll | So is there a metohd to help out, a lot of the pacakges in debian unstable are old as poop. |
| 17:42.37 | EvanCarroll | s/unstable/testing/ |
| 17:42.48 | jelly | getting it into unstable basically means getting it into debian, yes |
| 17:42.49 | EvanCarroll | I'm guessing there is no one maintaining them? |
| 17:44.15 | n4dir | i guess this could be answered by the do-ocracy approach of debian. The package gets updated whenever it's maintainer thinks the time is right (might be: he has the time) |
| 17:44.18 | jelly | EvanCarroll: first, verify which versions are in unstable, and whether the maintainers are active; then ask the maintainer team whether they need help; you can become a debian maintainer and help with some of those |
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| 17:44.33 | n4dir | So to help out you'd want to become a maintainer. |
| 17:44.54 | jelly | EvanCarroll: do you have any specific packages in mind? |
| 17:44.59 | n4dir | or help the maintainer, as jelly pointed out |
| 17:45.33 | rootkea | jelly, Since I have used non-free iso I see many non-free packages in vrms o/p. How do I know Which of these firmware packages am I using so that I can install bpo of them? I used `journalcrl -xb | grep firmware` and installed 3 packages. Am I missing something? |
| 17:45.37 | EvanCarroll | jelly buildah. |
| 17:45.57 | jelly | ,v buildah |
| 17:45.57 | EvanCarroll | it's 3 versions behind in debian testing, 1.15.2-1 |
| 17:45.58 | judd | Package: buildah on amd64 -- bullseye: 1.15.2-1; sid: 1.15.2-1 |
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| 17:46.42 | jelly | EvanCarroll: https://tracker.debian.org/buildah |
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| 17:47.32 | jelly | last upload was 2020-09-14, that's not old as poop! |
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| 17:48.18 | jelly | EvanCarroll: to qualify as genuine aged poop you'd need at least 6-12 months aged packages |
| 17:49.00 | EvanCarroll | v1.15.0 (2020-06-17) |
| 17:49.16 | EvanCarroll | That's 5 months old., so one month away from poop. |
| 17:49.33 | EvanCarroll | But I guess it was 3 months late at getting in which seems fishy too? |
| 17:50.19 | ratrace | sounds like Debian is totally not for your |
| 17:50.21 | ratrace | *you |
| 17:50.31 | ratrace | !sns |
| 17:50.31 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
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| 17:50.52 | EvanCarroll | Well, I'm on testing. ;) I didn't think testing lagged behind upstream 5 months. |
| 17:50.59 | jelly | EvanCarroll: but it's not 1.15.0, it's 1.15.2 |
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| 17:51.42 | EvanCarroll | jelly: I guess that's a valid point. buildah doesn't publish the minor releases in their changelog, so I have no idea what the status of that is. |
| 17:52.01 | EvanCarroll | I was just looking at it being 5 months behind testing from 1.15 and questioning that. |
| 17:52.08 | jelly | https://github.com/containers/buildah/commit/6029e181a712d28c1c70a3c03d9a66bb9c502b7d |
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| 17:52.25 | jelly | right there in the changelog |
| 17:52.56 | EvanCarroll | Ok, point taken. I retract my poop statement. I'm willing to frame 5 months behind as old-as-poop, but certainly not 3 months. =) |
| 17:53.48 | jelly | that said, go packages are ... speshul, I hear |
| 17:53.51 | EvanCarroll | I was using this changelog, https://github.com/containers/buildah/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md |
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| 17:54.31 | jelly | you'll probably want to switch to release-1.15 branch |
| 17:54.43 | EvanCarroll | I need 1.18 |
| 17:54.55 | n4dir | try to rebuild it? |
| 17:55.07 | EvanCarroll | yeah, that's an option. |
| 17:55.15 | jelly | then you'll have to work with maintainer to see if 1.18 breaks anything that's already in Debian |
| 17:55.18 | EvanCarroll | I need to learn to package for debian, it's my daily driver and i do rpm professionally. |
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| 17:55.24 | EvanCarroll | one would wonder why. and I have no answer. |
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| 17:56.10 | ratrace | GoodLuckWithThat(tm) |
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| 17:56.37 | EvanCarroll | It can't be that bad. |
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| 17:57.05 | ratrace | rpm spec is walk in the park on a nice, late summer afternoon (think september, neither hot nor cold). packaging for deb is what Matt Damon had to do in Martian |
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| 17:57.24 | EvanCarroll | hahahahahahhahahahahahahh |
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| 17:57.29 | n4dir | i think that often upgrading a package if there already is a package in Debian, that is the whole /debian file, ... it can be easy. |
| 17:57.30 | jelly | http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMaintainer |
| 17:57.31 | ratrace | (eating poop manured potatoes included) |
| 17:57.41 | n4dir | probably not the worst way to start with it. But i forgot all about it |
| 17:58.00 | n4dir | sorry the debian/ folder, not file |
| 17:58.06 | ratrace | strike one |
| 17:58.08 | EvanCarroll | that analogy just won the day. |
| 17:58.12 | n4dir | ratrace: ha ha |
| 17:58.13 | EvanCarroll | mic drop. |
| 17:58.19 | rootkea | So I am now on 5.8.0-0.bpo.2-amd64 but still startup service systemd-backlight@backlight:intel_backlight.service failing with "Failed to start Load/Save" Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:intel_backlight." and When I login into xfce, the brightness is at max. |
| 17:58.20 | ratrace | (see you already stroke with deb pkg) |
| 17:58.25 | jelly | EvanCarroll: if you really want to package for Debian, then the mentors channels is right for you |
| 17:58.27 | jelly | !mentors |
| 17:58.27 | dpkg | i guess mentors is the system the Debian project uses to train new people to become Debian Developers or Debian Maintainers and get their packages into the Debian archive. Ask me about <nmg>. http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/ http://mentors.debian.net/ #debian-mentors on irc.debian.org (irc.oftc.net). |
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| 17:59.21 | jelly | EvanCarroll: if however you just want to learn about packaging in deb format for your own needs, then you probably want #packaging also over there on OFTC |
| 17:59.35 | ratrace | I tried the mentorship route for Ubuntu once. dropped it after their own tools didn't work. |
| 17:59.42 | sussudio | does #packaging do christmas presents? |
| 17:59.52 | jelly | boy does it!!! |
| 18:00.02 | jelly | (no) |
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| 18:00.15 | ratrace | ((awww!)) |
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| 18:02.11 | EvanCarroll | jelly: I'll have to learn it first before I'm ready to do the mentor stuff. |
| 18:02.35 | jelly | EvanCarroll: the mentors are there to teach you I _think_ |
| 18:03.16 | n4dir | i think mentors are rather at a later point, with a given package and all. #packaging is less "strict" |
| 18:03.17 | jelly | they're debian mentors, or short, dementors |
| 18:03.24 | n4dir | a mixture of both won't hurt though |
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| 18:03.43 | alex11 | lol |
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| 18:04.44 | ratrace | dementors. love it :) |
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| 18:06.30 | jelly | or d-mentors |
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| 18:29.17 | unixbsd | For wifi at univs, is the CAT tools of Edu compatible with debian KDE? |
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| 18:39.17 | jhutchins | !sns |
| 18:39.17 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
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| 18:43.37 | unixbsd | sns ;) funny description, works with systemd ? |
| 18:44.58 | ratrace | in what way? |
| 18:45.01 | unixbsd | !sns |
| 18:45.01 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
| 18:45.35 | unixbsd | ratrace: nothing special about it, to mention. |
| 18:46.17 | ratrace | you're not making any sense |
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| 18:47.14 | unixbsd | ratrace: (skip this above line). this was a joke, but not easy to catch. |
| 18:47.26 | rootkea | Why does Debian make lightdm to not use ~/.xprofile? |
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| 18:47.53 | alex11 | afaik it's a bug |
| 18:47.56 | unixbsd | On slim, ... most dm, we use .xsession and .xinitrc. |
| 18:48.12 | alex11 | also i think it's just .profile not .xprofile |
| 18:48.19 | rootkea | Upstream even has lightdm-session for debian which sources .xprofile https://github.com/canonical/lightdm/blob/ff1c38c0616b3df66a5002ed7f531d53f218dfab/debian/lightdm-session |
| 18:48.55 | rootkea | alex11, No it's .xprofile. .profile is for shells |
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| 18:49.46 | Razva | guys thank you for your time and support, I finished what I had in mind. have a good one, cheers! |
| 18:50.09 | rootkea | At least that's what the lightdm maintainer has argued for including .profile. But what about .xprofile? |
| 18:50.25 | rootkea | Why to exclude it? |
| 18:50.50 | ratrace | it's ~/.xsessionrc not ~/.xsession, btw |
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| 18:51.38 | rootkea | I found https://dev.getsol.us/T8859 |
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| 18:55.30 | rootkea | Is there any standard regarding which x files dm has to source? |
| 18:57.26 | greycat | The DM doesn't read any. |
| 18:57.27 | unixbsd | .xinitrc is the oldest one, based on free X, Xorg. .xsession came later for modern desktops. freedesktop might be interesting to keep track. |
| 18:57.46 | greycat | The session that's launched BY the dm may read some. Debian patched things to use ~/.xsessionrc |
| 18:58.17 | greycat | Debian also patched their session to read ~/.xsession even when started by startx, so you don't have to keep both a .xinitrc and .xsession |
| 18:59.26 | unixbsd | startx still uses .xinitrc on debian. luckily, we go !sns ? |
| 18:59.41 | greycat | yes, it will use .xinitrc if there isn't a .xsession |
| 19:00.10 | unixbsd | startx shall use .xinitrc only. point. this is tragedy to change old reliable unix things. |
| 19:00.25 | greycat | ... no, startx *ON DEBIAN* will read either .xsession or .xinitrc |
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| 19:00.35 | greycat | this is #debian last time I checked |
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| 19:02.41 | alex11 | so if you use a DM what should you use? .xsession? |
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| 19:02.48 | alex11 | ugh sorry, i'm confused |
| 19:03.48 | greycat | If you're only on Debian (e.g. your $HOME is not shared with any other systems), then you can simply use .xsession and that will work for both startx and DM-launched Debian X sessions. |
| 19:04.18 | greycat | That's why they made the change. So you would only have to maintain the one file. |
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| 19:09.11 | rootkea | I want to turn off he beep (the one which is heard if we press backspace in login box or down-arrow on last row in thunar). I put `xset -b` in .xsessionrc which switched off the bell inn thunar. |
| 19:09.27 | rootkea | How do I disable bell in lightdm login box? |
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| 19:11.40 | rootkea | I remember setting xset -b in .xprofile in my previous setup. But now it turns out that Debian tweaks lightdm to ignore .xprofile |
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| 19:14.26 | greycat | *sigh* |
| 19:14.45 | greycat | No, your other operating system (Arch, I bet) tweaked their session, or possibly lightdm itself, to read ~/.xprofile |
| 19:14.49 | greycat | Debian did not |
| 19:15.23 | greycat | lightdm by default reads NOTHING from the user's directory after authentication. it simply runs the OS's session. |
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| 19:15.42 | greycat | the only things lightdm reads are in /etc/lightdm/ or similar, and apply BEFORE the authentication is performed |
| 19:15.59 | rootkea | Upstream has lightdm-session for Debian sourcing .xprofile https://github.com/canonical/lightdm/blob/ff1c38c0616b3df66a5002ed7f531d53f218dfab/debian/lightdm-session |
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| 19:25.56 | rootkea | jelly, I just installed Debian 10.6.0 live again in VM and faced the same eth0 issue. Clearly a bug with live media installation. |
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| 19:38.45 | Razva | what VNC server do you recommend? RealVNC doesn't allow direct connection on their free plan |
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| 19:39.32 | Razva | tightvnc, tigervnc...? |
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| 19:39.50 | sney | tightvnc is fine, there's also x11vnc for sharing existing X sessions |
| 19:40.23 | sney | look at xrdp as well, unless you specifically need the vnc protocol |
| 19:41.13 | greycat | I've been using tightvnc as well |
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| 19:42.44 | Razva | well, is there any vnc that basically runs as a service, aka I can see the login screen? |
| 19:43.00 | Razva | I've tried x11 and you need to login as a specific user |
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| 19:43.16 | sney | if you want a vnc-like experience, with a login prompt, then you want xrdp |
| 19:43.29 | Razva | got it |
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| 19:43.52 | Razva | do I need any special viewer or is the RealVNC Viewer fine? |
| 19:44.19 | sney | rdesktop is the standalone client, there are lots of others |
| 19:44.25 | MsK` | hello, I have a very weird bug. I'm trying to install xapian-core but apt-get says it doesn't know about it. I'm running an up to date buster so according to the package website, it should be there: https://packages.debian.org/source/stable/xapian-core also, I see it on the french mirror I use: http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/pool/main/x/xapian-core/xapian-core_1.4.11-1.dsc any idea what am I missing? |
| 19:44.48 | sney | ,v xapian-core |
| 19:44.49 | judd | No package named 'xapian-core' was found in amd64. |
| 19:45.23 | sney | MsK`: that's a source package. the binary package names are listed on that packages.debian.org page |
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| 19:45.56 | sney | if you did 'apt-get source xapian-core' then you'd download what that dsc describes |
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| 19:56.45 | rootkea | jelly, The issue has been already reported with lxde+live+non-free iso. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=968980 |
| 19:56.46 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/968980 in installation-reports (open, d-i): «installation-reports: systemctl status networking.service "failed" but Wicd works fine (LXDE)»; severity: normal; opened: 2020-08-25; last modified: 2020-08-25. |
| 19:57.02 | Razva | I've tried both xrdp and tightvnc |
| 19:57.12 | Razva | xrdp is VERY slow compared with tight |
| 19:57.30 | Razva | but no idea how to make tight's settings in such way that it shows a bigger sized screen |
| 19:57.35 | Razva | right now it's very very small |
| 19:57.49 | greycat | you pass a -geometry argument to the vncserver command when you start the session |
| 19:58.01 | MsK` | ohhh, right, sorry. thanks! |
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| 20:00.30 | Razva | greycat: ok, `geometry` fixed the window size but not the font size, can you please take a look at https://www.screencast.com/t/VobQtJrKsbmu ? |
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| 20:02.43 | greycat | Each application does its own thing with fonts. I barely understand anything about them. |
| 20:03.00 | Razva | can I do scaling of some sort? |
| 20:03.09 | greycat | If the application is a terminal, or something traditional, it might support X resources for configuring which fonts to try. |
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| 20:03.33 | Razva | maybe it's because of lxqt? |
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| 20:07.05 | Razva | solved `-dpi 96` |
| 20:08.21 | Razva | this is purrrrrrfect |
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| 20:16.15 | Paerox | Simple question about Docker: When I look at images at hub.docker.com from linuxserver.io, why is it that docker-compose is recommended over docker cli? |
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| 20:30.14 | Deknos | is anyone aware, if rocm-dkms on debian buster is needed for enabling tensorflow with amd vega? |
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| 20:46.39 | quadrathoch2 | Paerox it's easier for you, as it's kinda documentation and running at the same time. as you wouldn't know what command you typed in 100% for your container (if you need to respin it for the newest version) |
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| 21:01.51 | Paerox | quadrathoch2, Thanks, that make sense. I guess the docker-compose yaml-files could be thought of as "recepies" |
| 21:02.16 | quadrathoch2 | Paerox yup :) |
| 21:02.33 | Paerox | :-) |
| 21:03.07 | Paerox | is exited to learn docker! |
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| 21:44.39 | tinga | Hi. What can I do when I get "Maximum number of clients reached" from X? This is driving me crazy. I always reach this after a few weeks of uptime. |
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| 21:46.59 | petn-randall | tinga: Where do you get this error? |
| 21:47.41 | tinga | petn-randall, this is the X client library reporting that. I see it from programs opening an X connection when run from the terminal, or it is written to ~/.xsession-errors |
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| 21:48.05 | tinga | Opening new tabs in firefox then makes the tab crash, I can't open new terminal windows, etc., until I close some other windows. And I don't have so many open, really, it always appears as if it gets increasingly worse, so it might be some leaking somewhere. |
| 21:48.48 | tinga | I did find other people having that issue, though, IIRC, when I was googling around months ago (and couldn't find a solution). |
| 21:49.01 | tinga | Now I'm at the point where I simply patch X myself and rebuild, I've had enough. |
| 21:49.35 | greycat | googling it gives me a thread from Ubuntu, 10 years ago, and indicates that browsers can open a bunch of client connections |
| 21:49.36 | petn-randall | tinga: Did you check the amount of open connections? |
| 21:50.22 | petn-randall | I'm guessing that the limit is somewhere around 32k, so it might be that you have stale connections build up with time from a specific program. |
| 21:50.22 | tinga | Xorg is using 163348 KB RES, no prob with my 12 GB of RAM. |
| 21:50.27 | tinga | Let me check lsof |
| 21:50.49 | petn-randall | I'm not talking memory, I'm talking open connections. |
| 21:50.51 | greycat | According to the threads I'm seeing, the limit is/was 256. |
| 21:51.13 | tinga | Xorg has 1844 file handles; most of them "/drm mm object" |
| 21:51.24 | petn-randall | `ss | wc -l` |
| 21:51.34 | tinga | 2151 |
| 21:52.15 | petn-randall | Three time more than I have. I'd check if that number increases over time. |
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| 21:53.03 | greycat | xlsclients would be a more useful starting point, I suspect |
| 21:53.46 | petn-randall | That, too. |
| 21:54.07 | tinga | After `killall firefox-esr` ss|wc -l is 1169 |
| 21:54.35 | tinga | But I'm not even hoarding tabs, really. |
| 21:55.24 | tinga | xlsclients | wc -l == 124 after the firefox killing (I couldn't run it before, because it couldn't open an X connection...) |
| 21:55.58 | tinga | lsof -p 1317|wc -l == 1695 now |
| 21:55.58 | greycat | (just close one of your many terminals and run it in one of the other terminals) |
| 21:56.14 | tinga | I had already closed pretty much everything I was OK to close. |
| 21:57.02 | tinga | Ah, I'm using rxvt, individual terminals per window. |
| 21:57.16 | tinga | individual process per terminal. Or however to phrase that. |
| 21:57.21 | greycat | same. |
| 21:57.34 | greycat | anyway, sounds like firefox was the culprit this time |
| 21:57.48 | greycat | some of the google threads reported firefox, some reported chromium |
| 21:57.58 | tinga | It probably always is. But I had just killall firefox yesterday. |
| 21:58.15 | tinga | 256 connection is just not enough, probably. |
| 21:58.27 | greycat | Maybe, maybe not, but firefox shouldn't be using a hundred of 'em. |
| 21:58.37 | tinga | It's using a new one per tab, apparently. |
| 21:58.43 | greycat | It's not *supposed* to. |
| 21:58.58 | tinga | Sandboxing, who knows? |
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| 21:59.25 | greycat | I've got firefox using 11, and I have a *lot* more than 11 tabs open in it, although I don't know if all of the tabs are fully loaded |
| 21:59.29 | tinga | And so what, nothing real on the system is running close to a limit. |
| 21:59.37 | tinga | So I just want that limit to be higher. |
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| 22:01.01 | tinga | I'm using ublock, and I run firefox as several different users (~6 or so). |
| 22:01.12 | tinga | Maybe some other settings I use, dunno. |
| 22:02.06 | tinga | This is stretch. I'll have to upgrade at some point, but now isn't a good time, and I don't know if it will be any better. |
| 22:02.47 | jmcnaught | You run firefox as several different users at once? |
| 22:03.12 | tinga | Yes |
| 22:04.22 | tinga | I use `sux` to open other user's terminals and run them from there. |
| 22:05.11 | tinga | I separate them according to tasks. Working with Rust has a different set of bookmarks than reading HN, whatever. |
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| 22:06.04 | tinga | And I can kill a firefox to free up memory and, alas, filehandles, when I'm done with a task, without stopping the others. |
| 22:06.30 | n4dir | why not stop the others? |
| 22:06.47 | tinga | Because I'm not done reading some things? |
| 22:07.03 | tinga | Now I stopped all of them, of course. |
| 22:07.52 | n4dir | all that sounds like a very strange solution to a problem not that clear. But what do i know |
| 22:08.12 | jmcnaught | tinga: I don't know exactly what sux is, I can't find it in Debian, but maybe it is related to your issue? Have you considered using firefox profiles? ("-P -no-remote" for example) |
| 22:08.24 | n4dir | jmcnaught: i recall it from the long gone past |
| 22:09.03 | tinga | jmcnaught, https://raw.githubusercontent.com/pflanze/chj-bin/master/sux |
| 22:09.12 | tinga | Was in Debian a few releases back. |
| 22:09.26 | tinga | I have no idea why it disappeared. |
| 22:10.16 | jmcnaught | sux is sus. |
| 22:10.55 | tinga | jmcnaught, sus? |
| 22:11.06 | sney | ,bug rm sux |
| 22:11.09 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/726544 in ftp.debian.org (closed): «RM: sux -- RoM: Upstream dead, outdated, low popcon»; severity: normal; opened: 2013-10-16; last modified: 2014-01-30. |
| 22:11.53 | jmcnaught | tinga: sorry it's a meme from Among Us, I just mean that I suspect it is involved in your issue somehow. |
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| 22:13.07 | tinga | So you think it leads to Firefox opening a new X connection for a new tab. |
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| 22:13.54 | tinga | I had ~6 firefoxes running, they used about 150 X connections. 256 is the limit of X connections that X is hard coded to allow. |
| 22:14.10 | tinga | ~25 X connections per Firefox instance. |
| 22:14.37 | tinga | I combine that with using rxvt using a separate X connection for each terminal. |
| 22:15.00 | tinga | I've been using Linux for 20 years and this is my way of working and I think it's valid. |
| 22:15.29 | tinga | So I don't care if people using gnome-terminal and not separating their firefox usage don't run into this issue, I care that it's limiting my usage. |
| 22:16.27 | tinga | I can't imagine how sux would be the cause, it's just setting up xauth to allow X connections from that user. |
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| 22:17.13 | tinga | tracing xeyes with and without sux |
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| 22:32.13 | tinga | "xlsclients | wc -l" increases by 1 for an xeyes instance, "ss|wc -l" by 2, regardless whether I start it as my main user, or from root via "sux $someotheruser xeyes". |
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| 22:33.04 | tinga | (`lsof -p "$(pidof Xorg)" | wc -l` changes all the time anyway, so apparently can't really be correlated.) |
| 22:33.09 | phogg | that makes sense |
| 22:34.26 | phogg | RH maintains a patched X which can change the limit up or down, at the cost of fewer resources per client. |
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| 22:35.30 | tinga | Wow, thanks for that info. Makes me feel validated. |
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| 22:36.56 | tinga | Do you have a link? |
| 22:37.23 | tinga | I was just planning to increas the hard coded constant. |
| 22:37.47 | greycat | I don't think this is the solution. If firefox or chromium is using too many connections, and you raise the limit by 300, what's to stop FF from just using another 300? |
| 22:38.24 | tinga | I found https://bugs.launchpad.net/xorg-server/+bug/260138 |
| 22:38.46 | tinga | greycat, that I don't open that many tabs? And if I wanted, I'd raise the limit to 10x? |
| 22:39.30 | tinga | Let me check what happens with firefox, with the same wc -l counts. |
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| 22:40.56 | tinga | greycat, `xlsclients | wc -l` definitely goes up by 1 for each tab that has a page open, for me. Note that it only uses the new connection once it actually loads something, not for the empty tab. |
| 22:41.18 | tinga | Is it different for you? |
| 22:41.28 | greycat | now I'm afraid to find out |
| 22:42.46 | jmcnaught | "xlsclients | grep firefox | wc -l" started at 12 for me, I've opened four new tabs, the count is still 12. I have 71 tabs total open, most are not loaded. |
| 22:43.06 | tinga | jmcnaught, but did you load some url in those 4 new tabs? |
| 22:43.36 | greycat | (psst, grep -c firefox) |
| 22:44.01 | jmcnaught | oh thanks |
| 22:47.37 | jmcnaught | tinga: yes I loaded a page in each tab. I've now opened 20 new tabs and it's still 12. |
| 22:48.35 | tinga | What firefox version? Do you use any addons or special settings? |
| 22:48.50 | tinga | This is firefox 78.4.0esr-1~deb9u1 |
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| 22:50.56 | jmcnaught | tinga: this was with firefox-esr 78.4.1esr-1~deb10u1 but I just noticed that 78.5.0esr-1~deb10u1 is available. For add-ons I use noscript, uMatrix, decentraleyes, firefox multi-account containers |
| 22:51.19 | tinga | I just use ublock origin. |
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| 22:55.28 | jmcnaught | tinga: when I restarted firefox after the upgrade "xlsclients | grep -c firefox" was 8, after loading a couple dozen tabs it's now at 12 again but definitely not one client per tab for me at least. |
| 22:56.00 | tinga | Thanks. I've just installed your add-ons except for noscript & uMatrix, checking |
| 22:56.36 | tinga | No change. |
| 22:57.42 | tinga | BTW, same thing when I run firefox as my main user (no involvement of sux) |
| 23:00.39 | jmcnaught | tinga: I just told firefox to open 246 bookmarks in tabs, now it is up to 13 in xlsclients |
| 23:01.37 | tinga | Note that when I restart a killed firefox and it restores the tabs, it doesn't load the contents in the tabs until the tab is opened, and xlsclients only shows the connections once opened. |
| 23:01.58 | tinga | Don't know if it might be the same here. Anyway, it sounded earlier that your case is different. |
| 23:02.57 | jmcnaught | tinga: same here for restarting firefox, the tabs are not loaded until I go to them. But when I opened the 246 bookmarks as tabs it definitely loaded them all completely |
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| 23:04.18 | tinga | I'm still reading up on this; the painful part seems to be that the X protocol seems to be tied to it somehow (not clear yet about the details). But people have been complaining and providing hacks since at least 2006 (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9209). |
| 23:06.46 | quadrathoch2 | sounds to me an issue with debian9, which got fixed in 10 :/ that's at least what I 'saw' while you both talked ;) |
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| 23:10.34 | tinga | Wow, it *can* be configured now, to some extent: man xorg.conf | grep MaxClients |
| 23:12.46 | tinga | greycat, jmcnaught: ^ that may buy me enough room to get along till the upgrade, and, thanks quadrathoch2!, this should be ameliorated by then. |
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| 23:14.03 | greycat | sounded more like a straw-grasp to me |
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| 23:14.34 | greycat | I can't think of any obvious reason firefox compiled for buster would work better than the same firefox compiled for stretch, unless the bug is actually in some library |
| 23:16.13 | quadrathoch2 | greycat I was guessing more in the sense of xorg |
| 23:16.20 | tinga | I find that interesting, too, but, would it be noscript or uMatrix? Could be the point version, although that seems interesting. Could be a Debian custom patch that was added for a later release, though. |
| 23:16.43 | greycat | why on earth would you think "firefox is using hundreds of connections" is a bug in xorg |
| 23:17.26 | tinga | I don't see why it's necessarily a bug in Firefox. |
| 23:17.57 | tinga | Opening a new connection could make sense, from a "sandboxing" perspective--keep each renderer's state separate. |
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| 23:18.52 | tinga | I moved to rxvt with one process per terminal for reliability. One crashes, it doesn't take anything else down. Same reason could have been applied by Firefox. |
| 23:19.11 | tinga | And why not, except that X has a limitation there, "640 KB should be enough for everyone". |
| 23:19.48 | tinga | Anyway, it could also be something like WebGL: maybe you have that disabled, or it's lazy-loading for you and not for me or something? |
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| 23:52.18 | tinga | Odd, testing shows that on my X, 179 is the largest value ever returned by xlsclients | wc -l, open one connection more and xlsclients can't open, hence, 180 is the max client number, somehow, not 256. |
| 23:52.39 | tinga | now going to restart X to see if the config change helps |
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| 23:54.07 | phogg | tinga: I have noticed different "max" numbers in different situations |
| 23:54.16 | phogg | all < 256, of course |
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| 23:58.31 | tinga | Interesting: This *does* report 256 as the max number: lsof -p "$(pidof Xorg)" |grep /tmp/.X11-unix/X0|wc -l |
| 23:58.43 | tinga | So, xlsclients isn't reporting the same thing. |
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