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| 00:16.09 | jammz | themill, thanks. I'll look for some other option to generate these things.. first time using such software but I figure there are other options available |
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| 00:19.31 | jammz | #debian-next is invite only |
| 00:20.13 | jammz | I'm trying to install Miniconda but the installers for it are only at 3.7 and 3.8, while my debian python is 3.9 |
| 00:20.36 | sney | !invite only |
| 00:20.36 | dpkg | Many debian channels are on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you try to join one and you see "Cannot join (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 00:20.41 | sney | note right now you are on freenode |
| 00:29.29 | jammz | oh they said that the other day. thanks |
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| 01:17.52 | phantomcircuit | trying to install the libssl debug symbols but i cant because the version in debian-debug is slightly behind the version i have somehow |
| 01:17.55 | phantomcircuit | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:17.58 | phantomcircuit | u3 vs u4 |
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| 01:18.44 | sney | ,v libssl1.1 |
| 01:18.45 | judd | Package: libssl1.1 on amd64 -- stretch: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; buster: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u3; buster-proposed-updates: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u4; buster-security: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u4; bullseye: 1.1.1i-1; sid: 1.1.1i-1 |
| 01:19.15 | phantomcircuit | right so the buster version is u3 the buster-security version is u4 |
| 01:19.22 | phantomcircuit | something tells me i dont want to downgrade :) |
| 01:19.29 | sney | indeed |
| 01:19.49 | phantomcircuit | any idea how to get the debug symbols for buster-security releases? |
| 01:20.06 | sney | the dbgsym packages would still have been generated during auto build, but I'm not sure where it puts them |
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| 01:22.13 | sney | the package is there, so it must be attached to something http://deb.debian.org/debian-debug/pool/main/o/openssl/ |
| 01:22.21 | themill | It's available from buster-proposed-updates-debug |
| 01:22.27 | sney | aha. |
| 01:23.05 | themill | packages normally go into both buster/updates and buster-proposed-updates at the sameish time. (It's a hack, security.d.o needs to learn to publish the dbgsym packages properly) |
| 01:23.37 | themill | There seems to be little progress in #894081 |
| 01:23.38 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/894081 in ftp.debian.org (open): «security.debian.org: please publish dbgsym packages»; severity: normal; opened: 2018-03-26; last modified: 2020-03-05. |
| 01:24.02 | phantomcircuit | themill, thank you! |
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| 04:40.20 | oxek | how come /var/lib/dpkg/statoverride is automatically populated with some entries? |
| 04:40.55 | oxek | I thought this file is for the user to override what dpkg would do when some files are being unpacked |
| 04:41.51 | oxek | hence it should not be necessary for the file to have some default entries when one is installing from debian repositories, because the .debs in debian repositories should already adhere to some standard that does not need to be overridden by default |
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| 04:43.22 | oxek | for example, this is the statoverride file on two of my systems, where I have not modified the file myself https://0x0.st/-zug.txt |
| 04:44.52 | sney | mine has an entry for mlocate, so I went looking, and this is in the package's postinstall script: https://salsa.debian.org/debian/mlocate/-/blob/trunk/debian/mlocate.postinst |
| 04:45.22 | sney | so your assertion that debs should adhere to the standard is probably one of those things that is not 100% in practice. |
| 04:46.20 | oxek | that's a very interesting observation, thanks |
| 04:46.21 | jmcnaught | If the file was meant to be edited manually it would be in /etc |
| 04:46.38 | oxek | jmcnaught: it gets edited by dpkg-statoverride command |
| 04:48.18 | oxek | there probably is not a 100% distinction between /etc/ and /var/ for a lot of configuration files, or at least it is not clear to me |
| 04:49.06 | oxek | dpkg is a good example, with files in /var/lib/dpkg/ modifying its behavior |
| 04:49.06 | dpkg | oxek: You are person #1 to send an unparseable request |
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| 04:51.20 | sney | without checking, I suspect files in /etc are considered conffiles by dpkg and files in /var are not; so you could have debconf confirmations and 'confmiss' implications for the former but not the latter |
| 04:52.22 | oxek | perhaps |
| 04:52.56 | oxek | I am still thinking about the postinst scripts using dpkg-statoverride to change the file ownership and file mode of installed files |
| 04:53.21 | oxek | it does work, but feels like not the right way of doing it |
| 04:55.32 | sney | it seems like something dh_install or dh_fixperms should be able to do, but it's in neither man page |
| 04:56.23 | sney | or the maintainer could have set the permissions in d/rules and then overridden dh_fixperms to do nothing. but I'm not sure which approach is more hacky. |
| 05:00.44 | sney | I've sort of known this intuitively, but this supports it: Debian's insistence on Policy only reduces the amount of duct tape, it doesn't eliminate it. |
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| 05:03.45 | oxek | that's a good way of describing this - using dpkg-statoverride as part of debian-provided .debs feels like using duct tape |
| 05:07.21 | sney | and it's clearly pretty rare, my system had 3581 packages installed and only 7 entries in statoverride |
| 05:09.22 | oxek | sounds like whatever makes those 7 entries should be changed to remove a bit of duct tape and replace it with a proper solution |
| 05:09.56 | zerocool | what's a decent video card for every day use, doesn't have to be able to play games super well but just has to be good in linux. I'm an IT professional, KDE plasma, transparency and wobbly windows at 144hz is about as much as i need power for |
| 05:10.25 | sney | zerocool: I don't know about 144hz but basically any consumer gpu from the past ~8 years should be more than enough |
| 05:10.26 | oxek | zerocool: whichever card is integrated in your CPU. |
| 05:10.30 | sney | also that |
| 05:11.48 | oxek | at least intel and AMD are doing a slightly better job at writing drivers than nvidia |
| 05:12.09 | zerocool | oxek: my cpu has no integrated. |
| 05:12.14 | sney | you can get into the weeds pretty quickly with amd and opencl support, but I guess that's not technically "graphics" |
| 05:12.44 | zerocool | hmm, so nvidia then? should i run the latest cards or 1000 series? |
| 05:13.03 | oxek | I'd definitely avoid nvidia, especially since this is #debian and nvidia is not opensource-friendly |
| 05:13.29 | oxek | get some cheap AMD card that can drive as many monitors you need |
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| 05:18.13 | quadrathoch2 | so much this. i love the way amdgpu just works, in comparison to give myself a headache to figure out if nvidia driver works with kernel xy |
| 05:18.17 | zerocool | even "just fine" cards as so much money :( |
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| 05:20.37 | sney | 1000 series is even probably overkill, I had a gtx 650 in this machine until recently and it was more than sufficient for kde plasma with window effects on 2 monitors |
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| 11:35.32 | xoyi- | Hello, I've been experiencing Xorg mini-freezes with Debian Buster (backported Kernel 5.9.0) and an intel chipset. I've posted all my information in the Debian Forums. Is it ok if I also post it here, in case anyone can help? |
| 11:35.38 | xoyi- | or is that considered spamming? |
| 11:35.54 | ratrace | !pastebin |
| 11:35.54 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
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| 11:36.59 | xoyi- | sorry I meant to ask if it's ok to just link the forum post here |
| 11:37.09 | ratrace | sure |
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| 11:37.26 | xoyi- | https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/628708/short-xorg-freezes-in-debian-buster-on-thinkpad-carbon-x1-8th-gen |
| 11:37.40 | xoyi- | sorry, wrong link: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148583&p=733006#p733006 |
| 11:38.34 | ratrace | xoyi-: most important info of all: are there any log entries in dmesg or journal, when that happens? |
| 11:38.39 | ratrace | *relevant log entries |
| 11:40.39 | xoyi- | ratrace unfortunately no, nothing is even written at all in dmesg, syslog, journalctl or Xorg.0.log |
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| 11:42.25 | ratrace | xoyi-: tried changing the kernel? going back to main 4.19? |
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| 11:43.00 | ratrace | do you need 5.9 for something specifically? btw, that kernel is EOL |
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| 11:44.00 | jelly | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:44.14 | jelly | this is weird, software rendering instead of intel accel |
| 11:44.31 | jelly | perhaps the hardware is too new for buster drm and mesa? |
| 11:44.38 | ratrace | oh I missed that |
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| 11:47.43 | jelly | something to be said about ubuntu's backporting of the whole stack... I'm on 18.04 right now, which is sort of older than buster, and OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel UHD Graphics 620 (WHL GT2). version: 4.6 Mesa 20.0.8 |
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| 11:48.49 | jelly | ,v libdrm2 |
| 11:48.50 | judd | Package: libdrm2 on amd64 -- jessie: 2.4.58-2; stretch: 2.4.74-1; stretch-backports: 2.4.95-1~bpo9+1; buster: 2.4.97-1; bullseye: 2.4.103-2; sid: 2.4.103-2 |
| 11:49.02 | jelly | ,v libgl1-mesa-dri |
| 11:49.03 | judd | Package: libgl1-mesa-dri on amd64 -- jessie: 10.3.2-1+deb8u1; jessie-security: 10.3.2-1+deb8u2; stretch: 13.0.6-1+b2; stretch-backports: 18.2.8-2~bpo9+1; buster: 18.3.6-2+deb10u1; bullseye: 20.3.2-1; sid: 20.3.2-1 |
| 11:49.09 | OD1234567890 | hi all, relative newbie here hoping you can guide me a bit |
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| 11:50.45 | OD1234567890 | I have some weird processes running in a VPS that I suspect might be compromised. |
| 11:50.45 | OD1234567890 | For instance: |
| 11:50.46 | OD1234567890 | Â 9575 root 20 0 25572 792 404 S 19.7 0.1 31:46.97 rjnyjvykis |
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| 11:53.03 | OD1234567890 | I then kill the process and a while later another weird process starts. |
| 11:53.03 | OD1234567890 | For instance as jjfdfeex |
| 11:53.23 | jelly | don't kill it. lsof -np PID it, save output |
| 11:53.26 | OD1234567890 | How can I check how/where these processes are started ? |
| 11:55.50 | OD1234567890 | xefpfmhuk 23063 root cwd DIR 254,0 4096 262147 /root |
| 11:55.51 | OD1234567890 | xefpfmhuk 23063 root rtd DIR 254,0 4096 2 / |
| 11:55.51 | OD1234567890 | xefpfmhuk 23063 root txt REG 254,0 548627 136090 /usr/bin/xefpfmhukm |
| 11:55.52 | OD1234567890 | xefpfmhuk 23063 root 0u CHR 1,3 0t0 1028 /dev/null |
| 11:55.52 | OD1234567890 | xefpfmhuk 23063 root 1u CHR 1,3 0t0 1028 /dev/null |
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| 11:56.03 | xoyi- | ratrace I think I needed to backport the newest kernel for some hardware to work properly, I think it was for the graphics card specifically |
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| 11:57.20 | jelly | !paste |
| 11:57.21 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
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| 11:57.37 | xoyi- | jelly so that part (OpenGL renderer) could be the culprit? |
| 11:58.03 | jelly | xoyi-, not for freezes, but for performance issues with 3d in general |
| 11:58.23 | jelly | try bullseye if you can |
| 11:58.45 | xoyi- | I was afraid to, because I'm not very proficient with Linux/Debian, but I might have to do this in the end |
| 11:58.55 | jelly | xoyi-, which cpu model is in there? |
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| 11:59.22 | xoyi- | i5-10210U |
| 11:59.32 | jelly | some 9th gen i5 or i7? Yeah, right |
| 11:59.50 | xoyi- | it's a 10thgen |
| 11:59.50 | OD1234567890 | here is a https://paste.debian.net/1180786/ of the lsof |
| 12:00.12 | jelly | xoyi-, does the machine often get warmer than 60 C ? |
| 12:00.50 | xoyi- | hm, I don't think so, I haven't noticed anything like this |
| 12:00.57 | xoyi- | btw this could be relevant to my case? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=147151 |
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| 12:01.37 | ratrace | 10th gen might indeed require latest kernels. |
| 12:01.52 | ratrace | (and even maybe mesa as jelly suggested, yes) |
| 12:01.56 | jelly | that kernel is probably new enough |
| 12:02.02 | jelly | the rest of the stack, tho |
| 12:02.25 | jelly | even xorg is probably fine, drm and mesa are possibly old |
| 12:02.34 | ratrace | 5.9? maybe, but it doesn't hurt to try even newer. from what I've read, Intel has poured a lot of patches into 5.10 and 5.11 |
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| 12:02.52 | jelly | it won't help |
| 12:02.54 | BCMM | anybody know why libqalculate 3.x has been languishing in experimental for over a year? there's some sort of transition in progress but i have no idea how to read this page properly https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/auto-libqalculate.html |
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| 12:03.28 | jelly | not without support on the userspace side |
| 12:04.22 | jelly | OD1234567890, what does strace -ff -p 23063 show? |
| 12:04.25 | ratrace | jelly: "I'm on 18.04 right now" ... heretic. traitor. ;) |
| 12:04.28 | xoyi- | so should I try bullseye? |
| 12:05.14 | ratrace | xoyi-: I would. it's "soon" to be out anyway, in a few months, if all goes well. so if you don't mind belated security fixes... bullseye might help |
| 12:05.25 | jelly | ratrace, sure, but my X1C7 with almost the same GPU _works_, while xoyi's X1C8 does not :-) |
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| 12:05.59 | ratrace | but first I'd try to get the 5.10 kernel. it's simpler than bumpign whole OS, and it _may_ be sufficient. |
| 12:06.11 | jelly | unlikely |
| 12:06.51 | jelly | this is a drm and mesa thing. kernel does kms and memory allocation, not much more |
| 12:07.03 | xoyi- | side question: will upgrading to bullseye cause any firmware upgrades too? |
| 12:07.33 | jelly | xoyi-, firmware upgrade will only happen if you explicitely run fwupdmgr with specific options |
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| 12:07.47 | oxek | where can I find a suitable debian image URL for this command: 'machinectl pull-tar URL debian' |
| 12:07.51 | BCMM | xoyi-; jelly: well hang on, what sort of firmware updates? |
| 12:07.54 | ratrace | jelly: kms and memory allocation and all the other interaction with the gpu :) |
| 12:08.23 | BCMM | if we're talking about the kind of firmware that is loaded every time the machine boots as opposed to semi-permanently flashed to the hardware, then yes, it probably will |
| 12:08.35 | jelly | ratrace, the kernel part of the driver doesn't do much more than that IIRC |
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| 12:09.00 | BCMM | (e.g. GPU firmware, on most machines) |
| 12:09.03 | xoyi- | so I should follow this guide, right? https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/mips64el/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html |
| 12:09.12 | jelly | ,v intel-microcode |
| 12:09.13 | judd | Package: intel-microcode on amd64 -- jessie/non-free: 3.20180425.1~deb8u1; stretch-backports/non-free: 3.20190312.1~bpo9+1; jessie-security/non-free: 3.20200609.2~deb8u1; stretch-proposed-updates/non-free: 3.20200609.2~deb9u1; stretch-security/non-free: 3.20200609.2~deb9u1; buster-security/non-free: 3.20200609.2~deb10u1; stretch/non-free: 3.20200616.1~deb9u1; buster/non-free: |
| 12:09.14 | judd | 3.20200616.1~deb10u1; buster-backports/non-free: 3.20201118.1~bpo10+1; bullseye/non-free: 3.20201118.1; sid/non-free: 3.20201118.1 |
| 12:09.18 | ratrace | jelly: well Intel has been pouring a lot of code into "[not] much more than that" in 5.10 and .11 ;) |
| 12:09.44 | OD1234567890 | @jelly - I have no idea how to interpret the output of strace, but it dumps a huge amount of data continously |
| 12:09.45 | OD1234567890 | https://paste.debian.net/1180789/ |
| 12:09.55 | jelly | ratrace, sure, supporting new hardware typically. Go ask #intel-gfx |
| 12:10.19 | BCMM | xoyi-: was your question about graphics firmware in particular? |
| 12:10.28 | xoyi- | yep |
| 12:10.51 | xoyi- | I also had to backport some wifi-related drivers for buster to work properly |
| 12:11.02 | xoyi- | so I'm afraid if going to bullseye might mess those up |
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| 12:11.40 | jelly | OD1234567890, that snippet is interesting tho. Does /usr/bin/xefpfmhukm exist? |
| 12:11.54 | BCMM | xoyi-: newer debian comes with newer graphics firmware, yes (although not every card will actually have an update) |
| 12:11.57 | jelly | OD1234567890, you can exit strace with ctrl-c |
| 12:12.20 | BCMM | xoyi-: i believe that jelly was thinking of a different sort of firmware, with the reference to fwupdmgr |
| 12:12.34 | jelly | xoyi-, I believe there are live image isos for bullseye that may be good enough to test things |
| 12:12.41 | *** join/#debian msh07 (~msh07@181.171.140.40) |
| 12:13.00 | BCMM | graphics firmware is usually loaded by the graphics driver on every boot, from files which are typically installed by Debian packages (such as firmware-amd-graphics) |
| 12:13.01 | OD1234567890 | jelly , yes the file does exists. along with quite a few other "suspect" looking files |
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| 12:14.06 | jelly | OD1234567890, it's reasonably safe to say your system is compromised |
| 12:14.16 | jelly | xoyi-, https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/weekly-live-builds/amd64/iso-hybrid/ |
| 12:14.20 | BCMM | xoyi-: are you sure you need to move to testing? if you've tried installing the backports kernel for a graphics driver, it's quite likely that you also needed to install firmware from backports |
| 12:14.48 | OD1234567890 | jelly , safest bet to reinstall the VPS ? |
| 12:14.50 | xoyi- | BCMM I'm not sure at all |
| 12:15.07 | BCMM | sorry, i think i joined after your initial question |
| 12:15.17 | ratrace | OD1234567890: yes, you can no longer trust any tool on that machine for any recovery or cleanup |
| 12:15.21 | xoyi- | but I think I did install the drivers from backports |
| 12:15.34 | jelly | OD1234567890, if you can make a snapshot for a post-mortem analysis that'd be nice as well |
| 12:15.37 | ratrace | OD1234567890: but most important than that, is figuring out how you got infected. Otherwise you'll just get infected again. and again.... and again.... |
| 12:15.56 | jelly | xoyi-, did you also install firmware-misc-nonfree from backports |
| 12:15.57 | BCMM | xoyi-: what was the original problem? something wrong with the graphics drivers? |
| 12:15.59 | jelly | ,v firmware-misc-nonfree |
| 12:16.00 | judd | Package: firmware-misc-nonfree on amd64 -- jessie-security/non-free: 20161130-5~deb8u1; stretch/non-free: 20161130-5; stretch-backports/non-free: 20190114-2~bpo9+1; buster/non-free: 20190114-2; buster-backports/non-free: 20200918-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/non-free: 20201022-1; sid/non-free: 20201118-1 |
| 12:16.16 | jelly | xoyi-, if you haven't, those might make a difference |
| 12:16.25 | xoyi- | I have, yes |
| 12:16.31 | xoyi- | I have 20200918 |
| 12:16.44 | xoyi- | (buster-backports/non-free) |
| 12:16.45 | BCMM | xoyi-: what GPU do you have, anyway? |
| 12:16.46 | jelly | that probably matches 5.9 bdo kernel well |
| 12:16.59 | BCMM | most graphics firmware is not in that package! |
| 12:17.21 | BCMM | (ok, some graphics firmware is not there) |
| 12:17.32 | OD1234567890 | indeed ratrace ! the logs were not quite definitive (at least to me) unfortunately |
| 12:17.32 | OD1234567890 | so i guess reinstall with new passwords etc etc |
| 12:17.34 | jelly | judd, file /lib/firmware/i915/skl_guc_ver9_33.bin |
| 12:17.40 | judd | Search for /lib/firmware/i915/skl_guc_ver9_33.bin in buster/amd64: firmware-misc-nonfree: lib/firmware/i915/skl_guc_ver9_33.bin |
| 12:17.47 | ratrace | OD1234567890: jelly's suggestion to keep a copy for later analysis is sound tho |
| 12:17.51 | jelly | BCMM, intel GPU fw is there. |
| 12:18.02 | xoyi- | BCMM it's an intel gpu |
| 12:18.07 | BCMM | ah, ok then |
| 12:18.18 | OD1234567890 | jelly, a snapshot of the whole OS, or only of the weird files ? |
| 12:18.24 | xoyi- | BCMM for reference, this is the issue: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148583&p=733006#p733006 |
| 12:18.31 | jelly | OD1234567890, the whole machine. Preferably with RAM. |
| 12:19.29 | BCMM | xoyi-: anything interesting in dmesg? |
| 12:19.42 | xoyi- | no nothing :/ not even in journalctl or Xorg.0.log either |
| 12:19.44 | BCMM | (in particular, most drivers complain there if they want to load firmware that is not available) |
| 12:20.12 | OD1234567890 | jelly, will try, thanks for the advise/help guys |
| 12:20.28 | xoyi- | well, there's only this but I think it's wifi-related: iwlwifi 0000:00:14.3: firmware: failed to load iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-56.ucode (-2) |
| 12:20.53 | xoyi- | oh and also some ACPI-related errors |
| 12:21.03 | mrjpaxton | Hey, I'm thinking of switching back to Debian again from Ubuntu, but I really want to make sure certain software is up to date. I'm wondering what you guys typically do about this? Some options I've been thinking about: debian-backports, Nix package manager, Flatpak, container system (like Docker), an Ubuntu chroot, or something else. There's too many options out there! |
| 12:21.22 | BCMM | xoyi-: oh, i just saw Driver "intel" |
| 12:21.31 | jelly | xoyi-, that's wifi |
| 12:21.34 | xoyi- | and also this one: i801_smbus 0000:00:1f.4: SMBus is busy, can't use it! |
| 12:21.57 | mrjpaxton | I'll probably just use debian-backports for the kernel and nothing else. I feel like that's the best use for it, jsut to test out new kernel features. |
| 12:21.58 | BCMM | xoyi-: i think on modern intel graphics cards, most people recommend using Xorg's built-in modesetting driver instead |
| 12:22.06 | jelly | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-56.ucode |
| 12:22.10 | judd | No packages in buster/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:22.16 | jelly | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-56.ucode --release buster-backports |
| 12:22.18 | judd | No packages in buster-backports/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:22.25 | jelly | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-56.ucode --release bullseye |
| 12:22.28 | judd | No packages in bullseye/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:22.33 | jelly | :'( |
| 12:22.42 | xoyi- | but the wifi works properly |
| 12:22.51 | jelly | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-56.ucode --release sid |
| 12:22.53 | judd | No packages in sid/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:22.58 | BCMM | xoyi-: is there perhaps a message just after that in dmesg, in which it loads some other firmware file? |
| 12:23.21 | BCMM | sometimes a driver looks for the latest firmware first, then if that's not installed, looks for older versions |
| 12:23.53 | xoyi- | I'll try modesetting driver in Xorg first |
| 12:24.04 | jelly | modesetting should be the default driver. |
| 12:24.06 | BCMM | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-55.ucode |
| 12:24.10 | judd | No packages in buster/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:24.22 | BCMM | judd, file iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-55.ucode --release bullseye |
| 12:24.23 | judd | No packages in bullseye/amd64 were found with that file. |
| 12:24.36 | BCMM | huh, i'm looking at it on packages.debian.org... |
| 12:24.39 | xoyi- | yes it seems that it's loading some other driver right after: iwlwifi 0000:00:14.3: firmware: direct-loading firmware iwlwifi-QuZ-a0-hr-b0-55.ucode |
| 12:25.13 | xoyi- | also iwlwifi 0000:00:14.3: Detected Intel(R) Wi-Fi 6 AX201 160MHz, REV=0x354 |
| 12:25.33 | BCMM | that's fine, your driver *could* use newer firmware, but it works fine with the firmware it's got |
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| 12:26.07 | BCMM | wireless driver is a red herring here |
| 12:26.22 | xoyi- | should I try disable it completely and see if the freezes are gone? |
| 12:26.32 | xoyi- | I can use an ethernet cable in the meantime |
| 12:26.42 | BCMM | xoyi-: no. wifi is fine. |
| 12:26.50 | xoyi- | oh ok |
| 12:27.05 | BCMM | jelly: in the forum post it says there is van xorg.conf (that overrides that default graphics driver) |
| 12:27.58 | xoyi- | I also tried with no xorg.conf at all, same thing |
| 12:27.58 | BCMM | x/van/an/ |
| 12:28.01 | BCMM | oh |
| 12:28.11 | xoyi- | also tried with a xorg.conf after `Xorg -configure` |
| 12:28.18 | xoyi- | (after=provided by) |
| 12:29.06 | BCMM | judd: any idea if simply having xserver-xorg-video-intel installed will cause it to be used instead of the modesetting driver? |
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| 12:29.59 | BCMM | this is in the package description for the intel driver: "The use of this driver is discouraged if your hw is new enough (ca. 2007 and newer). You can try uninstalling this driver and let the server use its builtin modesetting driver instead." |
| 12:30.13 | xoyi- | oh, nice find! |
| 12:30.39 | xoyi- | I can try removing it |
| 12:30.44 | BCMM | xoyi-: you could look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log to see which driver is being used, or you could just uninstall that package to be sure |
| 12:30.55 | xoyi- | did just now (uninstalled) |
| 12:31.00 | xoyi- | I have to reboot I assume? |
| 12:31.47 | BCMM | you don't *have* to reboot, but rebooting is probably the easiest way to restart X :) |
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| 12:35.38 | jelly | xoyi-, oh right, get rid of your xorg.conf |
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| 12:36.46 | jelly | Xorg server in buster should try modesetting first; Xorg.0.log probably has clues |
| 12:37.33 | xoyi- | it does, here are the Xorg logs: https://paste.debian.net/1180790/ |
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| 12:38.37 | xoyi- | There's an "unknown chipset" warning right there, could that be the issue? |
| 12:38.37 | BCMM | xoyi-: that log file is from before uninstalling xserver-xorg-video-intel, right? |
| 12:38.59 | xoyi- | BCMM yes, I haven't restarted since then |
| 12:39.37 | BCMM | i'd suggest trying the modesetting driver before trying to iron out minor problems with the intel driver |
| 12:40.06 | xoyi- | ok I'll reboot now, after removing that package and also my xorg.conf. brb... |
| 12:40.35 | xoyi- | what if I change to a new tty and just do a `startx` again? |
| 12:40.42 | xoyi- | (I mean, instead of rebooting) |
| 12:41.09 | BCMM | if you don't quit your current x session first, i have no idea what it will do to be honest |
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| 12:41.41 | xoyi- | ok, rebooting :) |
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| 12:44.54 | xoyi- | back. I still don't see anything new at the xorg logs :O |
| 12:45.39 | xoyi- | but I have a slight impression that things have improved (still no freezes after quite a few minutes) |
| 12:46.37 | *** join/#debian xoyi- (b9ea3948@185.234.57.72) |
| 12:46.37 | xoyi- | but I should probably hold my breath |
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| 12:47.38 | ratrace | xoyi-: tl;dr you bumped to bullseye? |
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| 12:50.06 | xoyi- | but now I get wifi disconnects :/ wpa_supplicant[716]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-SIGNAL-CHANGE above=1 signal=-71 noise=9999 txrate=43300 |
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| 12:54.25 | xoyi- | isn't it weird that my xorg logs are empty? |
| 12:55.34 | xoyi- | so yeah, it seems that that package (xserver-xorg-video-intel) was the culprit(?) |
| 12:55.45 | xoyi- | things are looking great now, 0 freezes after 10 minutes |
| 12:55.51 | xoyi- | \o/ |
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| 13:01.16 | xoyi- | but now instead of: `driver: amdgpu,ati,fbdev,intel,modesetting,nouveau,radeon,vesa,vmware` I see `driver: none` in the output of `inxi -SG` |
| 13:01.18 | xoyi- | is that normal? |
| 13:02.35 | BCMM | xoyi-: i don't know much about how inxi works, but was it just listing every driver available on the system before? (as opposed to the driver currently in use) |
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| 13:02.46 | xoyi- | hm no idea either |
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| 13:03.06 | ratrace | glxinfo | grep -i renderer |
| 13:03.58 | xoyi- | ratrace this hasn't change AFAICT: https://paste.debian.net/1180795/ |
| 13:03.58 | BCMM | xoyi-: on my machine it just shows "driver: amdgpu", even though i have amdgpu and modesetting available on the system. i think it's just a bug in inxi |
| 13:04.28 | BCMM | ratrace: yeah, that wouldn't change. xorg drivers are not exactly the same thing as glx drivers. |
| 13:04.54 | ratrace | it should, jelly was right. LLVM means you're using software renderer. |
| 13:05.03 | xoyi- | btw I located my Xorg logs (I was searching in the wrong path). The new ones are those: https://paste.debian.net/1180796/ |
| 13:05.11 | ratrace | this is how it shows on properly accelerated intel HD system: OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Haswell Desktop |
| 13:05.42 | JackFrost | BCMM: -Gxx should show something more like: driver: intel unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa |
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| 13:06.27 | xoyi- | yeah, even though I don't have the freezes now, I have an impression that the graphics driver is not loaded properly |
| 13:08.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1192] by debhelper |
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| 13:10.29 | xoyi- | silly question: how can I determine if a driver for my graphics card is loaded and used? |
| 13:11.33 | LtL | xoyi-: lspci -k usually |
| 13:11.55 | BCMM | xoyi-: kind of depends on what you mean by "graphics driver" - there are a lot of different components |
| 13:12.15 | xoyi- | I see: "Kernel driver in use: i915" under the VGA section |
| 13:12.18 | BCMM | it's possible to have a working kernel driver and Xorg driver but not a working gl implementation |
| 13:12.47 | BCMM | i think llvmpipe is software rendering |
| 13:12.57 | ratrace | (it is) |
| 13:13.59 | BCMM | xoyi-: is libglx-mesa0 installed? |
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| 13:14.33 | xoyi- | yep, 18.3.6-2 |
| 13:14.46 | BCMM | oh sorry, of course it is... |
| 13:14.55 | BCMM | xoyi-: do you use a display manager or just do startx? |
| 13:15.38 | xoyi- | just startx |
| 13:16.27 | BCMM | have you added yourself to the right groups to be able to do that? |
| 13:16.40 | xoyi- | from the Xorg logs I've pasted above, I can't really determine which driver Xorg is using |
| 13:17.00 | xoyi- | BCMM I'm in audio, video, staff |
| 13:17.15 | BCMM | xoyi-: "Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so" says you're using the modesetting driver now |
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| 13:19.05 | xoyi- | oh ok, thanks |
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| 13:19.28 | BCMM | well ok it's also possible for it to load and use other modules afterwards but there's a lot of lines starting modeset(0): later showing that it's actually running |
| 13:20.16 | xoyi- | so things are not freezing now, but the fact that it uses a software acceleration means something is wrong, right? |
| 13:20.47 | xoyi- | is there any other way to determine if things are not set up correctly? e.g. opening an 1080p youtube video or something? |
| 13:21.52 | BCMM | xoyi-: i think you might need to be in the render group as well as video |
| 13:22.16 | BCMM | i'm not 100% sure on that, though (most people just use a display manager and magically get permissions by being the locally logged-in user) |
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| 13:22.58 | ratrace | wouldn't that be the case even if you log in through the console? ie. it's logind doing all that? |
| 13:23.13 | BCMM | not sure, to be honest |
| 13:23.29 | BCMM | but you could test it by doing touch /dev/dri/render* |
| 13:23.38 | ratrace | and you're right about render group, though with a DM it's solved via ACLs, not group membership |
| 13:24.02 | ratrace | getfacl /dev/dri/renderD128 -> user:myuser:rw- |
| 13:25.15 | xoyi- | I can do that |
| 13:25.21 | xoyi- | (I mean the `touch ..` thing) |
| 13:25.26 | xoyi- | I added myself to the render group |
| 13:25.36 | ratrace | xoyi-: check with getfacl if you already have the ACL |
| 13:26.31 | ratrace | (btw, lack of permission would've been noted in Xorg.0.log) |
| 13:27.28 | xoyi- | ratrace https://paste.debian.net/1180800/ |
| 13:28.23 | ratrace | right, you have the ACL, you don't need "render" group membership |
| 13:28.36 | xoyi- | I see |
| 13:29.17 | ratrace | just check you have the ACL for other devices too. on my system there's also /dev/dri/card0 |
| 13:29.28 | BCMM | that's usually video group anyway |
| 13:29.38 | ratrace | indeed |
| 13:29.50 | xoyi- | I do have them |
| 13:30.48 | ratrace | so I guess permissions aren't the issue. unless apparmor or selinux, but that's unlikely? or.... did you do anything there (it's not default)? |
| 13:31.11 | BCMM | xoyi-: so was glx working before, when you were using the intel driver? |
| 13:32.12 | xoyi- | no idea, how can I determine that? |
| 13:32.24 | xoyi- | ah you mean the `glxinfo | grep renderer` part? |
| 13:32.27 | BCMM | yeah |
| 13:32.35 | xoyi- | I *think* it was always like that |
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| 13:33.06 | ratrace | xoyi-: I didn't read the entire scrollback; did you bump to bullseye? |
| 13:33.49 | xoyi- | nope |
| 13:34.16 | ratrace | so you still have that option |
| 13:34.23 | xoyi- | because others suggested to try removing the xserver-xorg-video-intel package first, and indeed that fixed the freezes |
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| 13:35.03 | xoyi- | sure - so there still seems something is off here, right? |
| 13:35.37 | xoyi- | (I'm kinda confused regarding what state my system is at right now., if something is broken or not) |
| 13:35.54 | BCMM | i wonder if mesa is too old for that gpu |
| 13:36.33 | BCMM | xoyi-: it sounds to me like opengl is not working |
| 13:36.55 | BCMM | just to confirm, this is a pure intel graphics machine, right? not nvidia hybrid graphics or anything? |
| 13:36.59 | xoyi- | so that means my GPU is not used at all by the kernel? |
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| 13:37.02 | xoyi- | or just by X? |
| 13:37.15 | BCMM | xoyi-: it means the gpu is not used by opengl applications |
| 13:37.32 | BCMM | which basically means games and desktop compositors |
| 13:37.50 | xoyi- | the GPU is: Intel FHD |
| 13:37.58 | xoyi- | (it's a lenovo thinkpad carbon x1 8th gen) |
| 13:38.33 | xoyi- | so there's no nvidia stuff, no |
| 13:39.01 | xoyi- | BCMM does Firefox also uses OpenGL? e.g. for youtube videos? |
| 13:39.35 | BCMM | xoyi-: firefox can use opengl for accelerated rendering (off by default for now) and for web pages that use webgl (like google maps in 3d mode) |
| 13:39.43 | xoyi- | oh ok |
| 13:39.52 | BCMM | firefox uses a different api for gpu video decode |
| 13:40.02 | BCMM | (which is also off by default) |
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| 13:40.46 | xoyi- | in that case, I guess I can wait a bit for bullseye to become more "stable" and only then upgrade to it. Until then, I can live with not having OpenGL apps, since I'm using this purely as a developer workstation (no games, just Xorg/i3 and surfing) |
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| 13:41.56 | xoyi- | so there's not some kind of "blessed" driver for the given graphics card in Debian? |
| 13:42.16 | xoyi- | I don't quite get which packages I should install (if any) on a fresh Debian Buster installation, given my laptop |
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| 13:42.27 | xoyi- | (related to the graphics card of course) |
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| 13:43.11 | BCMM | it might be that you could just use backports mesa |
| 13:45.21 | xoyi- | I have the following mesa-related packages installed currently: https://paste.debian.net/1180801/ |
| 13:45.30 | xoyi- | are you talking about any of those? |
| 13:46.40 | xoyi- | btw `apt list --upgradable` returns 0 results |
| 13:46.49 | xoyi- | and I have buster-backports added in my sources |
| 13:49.31 | BCMM | xoyi-: adding buster-backports to your sources does not automatically upgrade all possible packages to the backports version |
| 13:49.39 | BCMM | you have to specifically request backports packages |
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| 13:49.50 | xoyi- | oh ok |
| 13:50.08 | xoyi- | so which mesa package are you referring to? |
| 13:50.37 | BCMM | never mind, there doesn't seem to be a backports version of mesa |
| 13:51.24 | xoyi- | I'm somewhat eager to try bullseye, but I don't know how much additional trouble I'll get into, so I'm afraid to :P |
| 13:52.02 | xoyi- | good thing is I only care about few stuff: xorg, i3, docker, vim |
| 13:52.10 | JackFrost | Yeah I already jumped where I could to it, otherwise there's silly py2 deprecations I need to take care of. |
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| 13:52.44 | xoyi- | If I could find someone with the same workstation who tried it, I'd be less afraid |
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| 13:55.19 | xoyi- | not actually the same case, but people also suggest here that Buster is too old for using it in brand new hardware: https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/kv2wst/cinnamon_in_software_rendering_mode/ |
| 13:55.41 | greycat | backported kernel/xorg/mesa/firmware goes a long way though |
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| 13:56.03 | BCMM | greycat: is there a backported mesa available for the current Stable? |
| 13:56.12 | greycat | but yes, in general, a stable release of *any* Linux will fail to support bleeding edge hardware |
| 13:56.44 | greycat | looks at "dpkg -l | grep mesa" and gives up |
| 13:56.55 | xoyi- | so I only add buster-backports main? |
| 13:56.59 | xoyi- | (to my sources I mean) |
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| 13:58.11 | BCMM | if you're fine with not having opengl until the next release, i reckon you can just carry on |
| 13:58.17 | xoyi- | greycat: I don't see anything in backports related to xorg or mesa :/ |
| 13:58.30 | xoyi- | I did backport the kernel (5.9.0) |
| 13:58.39 | greycat | ,v xserver-xorg |
| 13:58.40 | judd | Package: xserver-xorg on amd64 -- jessie: 1:7.7+7; buster: 1:7.7+19; stretch: 1:7.7+19; bullseye: 1:7.7+21; sid: 1:7.7+21 |
| 13:58.41 | BCMM | pretty sure there is no backports mesa at the moment https://packages.debian.org/source/buster/mesa |
| 13:58.45 | greycat | Hmm. |
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| 13:58.56 | BCMM | (for buster, anyway.) |
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| 13:59.18 | xoyi- | oh, bullseye also has the same xorg version? |
| 13:59.22 | xoyi- | ...as Buster? |
| 13:59.43 | Freneticks | is there something to upgrade mirror (/etc/apt/sources.list) with dpkg-reconfigure ? |
| 13:59.45 | ratrace | xorg versions change very rarely |
| 13:59.56 | xoyi- | and now sure how I can backport firmware |
| 13:59.59 | ratrace | Freneticks: "upgrade" the list? to what? |
| 13:59.59 | xoyi- | not* |
| 14:00.20 | greycat | ,v firmware-misc-nonfree |
| 14:00.21 | judd | Package: firmware-misc-nonfree on amd64 -- jessie-security/non-free: 20161130-5~deb8u1; stretch/non-free: 20161130-5; stretch-backports/non-free: 20190114-2~bpo9+1; buster/non-free: 20190114-2; buster-backports/non-free: 20200918-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/non-free: 20201022-1; sid/non-free: 20201118-1 |
| 14:00.21 | ratrace | xoyi-: what's stopping you from going full bullseye? security fixes? |
| 14:00.23 | tarzeau | greycat: linux can also fail on old hardware, it's a matter of who produced it, if the document is widely available, and worth to write support for it (popularity/price) |
| 14:00.30 | Freneticks | ratrace: like the fatest mirror, or something near the country, not the default which seems to be in us |
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| 14:00.47 | tarzeau | greycat: now there's that crazy people with asahilinux getting linux to run on apple m1 hardware |
| 14:01.00 | greycat | yes, "too old" is also an issue |
| 14:01.02 | tarzeau | i remember the wps printers, they were such a mess. |
| 14:01.24 | xoyi- | ratrace: fear of bumping onto issues that I'll not have the time to fix (I'm starting work next week) |
| 14:01.35 | ratrace | Freneticks: "fastest" mirror is a myth. something could "fastest" today, and very much under crawling load tomorrow. |
| 14:01.43 | xoyi- | (time or knowledge) |
| 14:01.56 | xoyi- | but you people were very helpful here, so there's that |
| 14:01.59 | ratrace | Freneticks: but you can switch from the CDN (which sould behave as "fastest" anyway), to a ccTLD or explicit mirror in your country |
| 14:02.15 | ratrace | Freneticks: pick your poison: https://www.debian.org/mirror/list |
| 14:02.19 | BCMM | xoyi-: xorg doesn't move very fast these days |
| 14:02.29 | ratrace | xoyi-: right. |
| 14:02.39 | Freneticks | ratrace: well, in the cli wizard of installation you can select a country, and it's bypassed if network don't work. So i'm looking a way to get this wizard again |
| 14:02.42 | tarzeau | ratrace: no point in the faster mirror if your dns servers suck |
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| 14:03.38 | ratrace | Freneticks: it's a text file. open in an editor (with root privileges). edit the URLs. save. ????? profit! :) |
| 14:04.01 | BCMM | you know, i don't actually understand debian's version numbering for xserver-xorg at all |
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| 14:04.37 | Freneticks | ratrace: i know that, i can't memorise url. Where can I find those right url ? |
| 14:04.39 | BCMM | upstream seems to be on version 1.20, debian has "7.7"? |
| 14:04.46 | greycat | I think xorg development is basically "done" because they want to work on Wayland instead. |
| 14:04.52 | Freneticks | don't say wiki i mean in a terminal way |
| 14:05.25 | greycat | Freneticks: it may not exist outside of the installer. |
| 14:05.49 | greycat | most people just edit the sources.list to use whatever mirror they want |
| 14:06.06 | BCMM | it appears to use the x11 version rather than the xorg version, for xorg. as in X11R7.7 |
| 14:06.08 | ratrace | BCMM: iirc it was similar to java. Java 8 is actually 1.8. xorg-server 7.7. is actually 1.7.7 or something like that |
| 14:06.11 | Freneticks | in arch/gentoo there is a mirror file with all mirror it's very easy |
| 14:06.55 | greycat | It's easy in Debian too -- you just remember "http://ftp.us.debian.org" and drop that into the file. |
| 14:07.01 | BCMM | ratrace: nah, it must be the x11 protocol version as opposed to the xorg version (so it hasn't been bumped since 2012) |
| 14:07.22 | greycat | or replace .us. with whatever country code you think will work |
| 14:07.31 | ratrace | Freneticks: I don't know if debian maintains a list of mirrors as an updateable package |
| 14:07.46 | ratrace | BCMM: ah yes, now that you mention it, that rings a bell |
| 14:07.46 | greycat | !deb.debian.org |
| 14:07.48 | dpkg | deb.debian.org is a mirror network that is backed by international content delivery networks and for most users, this is the most reliable <mirror> to use in the <sources.list>. From Debian 9 "Stretch" onwards, apt queries SRV records in DNS which then send it off to a CDN. Older apt will get an HTTP redirect from deb.debian.org to the same CDNs. See http://deb.debian.org/ for more details. |
| 14:08.00 | BCMM | i'm guessing that xorg 7.7+19 corresponds to x11r7.7 and xorg 1.19 |
| 14:08.11 | ratrace | BCMM: probably, yes |
| 14:08.52 | BCMM | the timeline looks about right for that |
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| 14:13.14 | xoyi- | so when do you ppl think that bullseye is going to be released as stable? |
| 14:13.38 | ratrace | sometime mid this year if all goes well |
| 14:13.44 | JackFrost | ~230 days from now. |
| 14:14.50 | ratrace | what hat did you pull that number out of? |
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| 14:15.06 | themill | it wasn't a hat |
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| 14:15.34 | ratrace | I was being polite :) |
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| 14:19.16 | xoyi- | btw thanks a lot for the help everyone! |
| 14:19.20 | BCMM | xoyi-: this year, basically |
| 14:19.45 | BCMM | xoyi-: probably approximately following the pattern established by previous releases https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Production_Releases |
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| 14:21.03 | JackFrost | ratrace: Wild guess, looking at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Release_statistics |
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| 14:21.12 | BCMM | but also debian is released "when it's done". it does not do the Ubuntu thing where they pick a fixed date years in advance and it will come out on that date, whatever state it is in |
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| 14:27.08 | Kliment | Anyone know where the installer gets its defaults from? |
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| 14:29.51 | ksk | Kliment: defaults as in? maybe https://wiki.debian.org/tasksel is what you are looking for |
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| 14:30.21 | greycat | I can't even guess which "defaults" that question refers to. |
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| 14:30.56 | ksk | be aware that "no sane administrator" actually uses them, we either install what we want directly or go with config-managment if you like that.. |
| 14:32.03 | greycat | you're assuming the question refers to "tasks" or bundles of packages selectable during installation ... which it might. |
| 14:32.09 | Kliment | I mean, when I use the graphical installer (this is the kde image), it has some defaults it uses for the things it doesn't ask |
| 14:32.19 | greycat | What. Things. |
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| 14:32.49 | Kliment | and I'd like to know where these are stored. Things like how big the partitions are in the automatic partitioning |
| 14:32.54 | greycat | also, "the kde image" implies a Live. installing from a Live was never really kosher until recently, and most of us don't do it. |
| 14:33.11 | greycat | Oh, I've never used automatic partitioning either. |
| 14:33.15 | Kliment | yes, sorry, installing from a live image |
| 14:33.49 | ksk | Kliment: I dont think there is "things like .." in this context, you will kind of have to look up one by one. I would assume there is some magic included in the automatic disk setup, depending on your disk(s). |
| 14:33.54 | Kliment | I'd like to see the defaults because they're a sane basic configuration but I'd like to change some sizes |
| 14:34.00 | greycat | !d-i |
| 14:34.01 | dpkg | Information about the development of the debian-installer is at the developers page http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ . If you want to make custom install CDs, start with d-i. IRC: #debian-boot on irc.oftc.net. See also <errata>, <g-i>. |
| 14:34.56 | Kliment | does the graphical installer have a name? |
| 14:35.05 | greycat | It's part of d-i. |
| 14:36.14 | Mister00X | Kliment: The live installer is called calamares |
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| 14:38.00 | Kliment | Mister00X: thanks! |
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| 15:06.31 | nifker | Which package contains s2ram? |
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| 15:07.51 | ratrace | !apt-file |
| 15:07.51 | dpkg | apt-file is a utility used to find which package owns a given file - or list files in a package - even if it is not installed: "apt install apt-file && apt-file update" ; then "apt-file search filename" to see a list of packages containing filename (can also use a regular expression; see man apt-file). You can also search online, ask me about <pdo>. See also <judd-file>, <auto-apt>, <dlocate>. |
| 15:08.25 | nifker | !apt-file search s2ram |
| 15:08.36 | ratrace | it's a package you need to install |
| 15:08.55 | greycat | or ask packages.debian.org or ask judd |
| 15:09.05 | BCMM | nifker: are you just trying to sleep your computer? |
| 15:09.11 | nifker | BCMM: yes |
| 15:09.20 | BCMM | nifker: try `systemctl suspend` |
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| 15:10.41 | BCMM | I don't think there's much need for uswsusp these days, at least on Debian |
| 15:10.57 | ratrace | unless you're one of them people who aren't running systemd :) |
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| 15:11.33 | BCMM | then you should still find another solution, cos it's not going to be in the next debian release |
| 15:12.35 | ratrace | doesn't echo to somewhere in /sys or /proc still work? |
| 15:12.40 | BCMM | (do you actually have to do any actions before just telling the kernel to sleep, on a modern system?) |
| 15:13.02 | BCMM | ratrace: yeah, but uswsusp does some stuff first i think |
| 15:13.21 | BCMM | archwiki says "Since HAL is deprecated and KMS drivers can save the state of the graphics card directly without userspace quirks, s2ram development is discontinued" |
| 15:13.43 | BCMM | well i guess that worked |
| 15:13.44 | ratrace | very good. |
| 15:14.14 | BCMM | and i think uswsusp was basically just doing, um, something or other that makes the graphics driver happy followed by echo > /sys/whatever |
| 15:14.56 | ratrace | I haven't used suspend or hibernate in quite some time |
| 15:15.07 | ratrace | since jessie I think? |
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| 15:23.46 | BCMM | maybe it's progress or maybe it's just cos i've stopped using nvidia hardware, but it basically just works now |
| 15:24.09 | BCMM | there is a button in kde and when i press it, the computer sleeps |
| 15:24.15 | BCMM | if i have a swap partition, there's a hibernate one too |
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| 16:42.21 | Voltum | i see that the latest stable for nginx is 1.18.0 but on debian buster 1.14.2 is available |
| 16:42.41 | Voltum | is this due some incompatibility or just out of date? |
| 16:42.56 | Voltum | i am thinking of using the official nginx debian repository to get the stable |
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| 16:45.00 | ratrace | Voltum: debian doesn't upgrade software during the lifecycle of a release, with a few notable exceptions. instead security fixes and to some extent bugfixes, are ported as patches. |
| 16:45.25 | ratrace | so if you want latest nginx, and latest bugs, you should use official nginx debian repo, yes. |
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| 16:46.59 | Voltum | this is unrelated, but searching for their official repo: i find nginx.com and nginx.org |
| 16:47.06 | Voltum | are both of those sites official? |
| 16:47.16 | azeem | guess so |
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| 16:59.15 | ratrace | Voltum: yes. .com is oriented at their commercial edition, while .org is the foss one |
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| 17:17.18 | mulletman | I just downloaded a bunch of graphics, many of which I can not seem to rename with krusader, nautilus, or xnview, nor archive with tar |
| 17:18.17 | mulletman | It seems to be something about the characters used, they show up as a combo of normal chars and ??? in krusader and nautilus and in the term but in xnview they look much stranger, almost like some sort of markup lang? |
| 17:19.02 | mulletman | I was able to move them to this disk, that is from an ext4 fs to a ntfs fs, but now cant do anything with them... |
| 17:19.08 | BCMM | what locale are you using? |
| 17:19.19 | mulletman | US |
| 17:19.38 | BCMM | but utf8, right? |
| 17:20.11 | mulletman | ah sorry, I assume utf8 but am not sure, how would I check that? |
| 17:20.29 | BCMM | you could just type "locale" |
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| 17:21.25 | mulletman | doh - that was a bit obvious (thank you) |
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| 17:21.35 | mulletman | LANG=en_US.UTF-8 |
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| 17:22.06 | mulletman | actually en_US.UTF-8 for everything according to locale |
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| 17:23.34 | mulletman | For what its worth, many of the files it seems were "named" using symbols or something like that? |
| 17:24.09 | zutat | maybe it's chinese or some other asian language |
| 17:24.58 | zutat | sometimes fonts are missing the characters and you see strange placeholders with code in them |
| 17:25.27 | mulletman | Possible but I dont think so (in this case at least) |
| 17:25.42 | mulletman | though is it possible to mix fonts in a filename? |
| 17:26.27 | mulletman | because they are not total jibberish, part of the name is totally normal, and then the rest shows up as ???? in most of the apps, but in something that really looks like a ML in xnview |
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| 17:27.00 | BCMM | mulletman: filename are unformated text - you can't specify fonts. some applications may display the filename using more than one font, if your main font does not include all the characters the filename uses |
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| 17:29.13 | mulletman | so does that make it so one is not able to rename something, say to characters that my main font does have? |
| 17:29.35 | mulletman | because currently I cant rename these files using anything so far |
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| 17:34.20 | ilikeyou | any way to force apt to be interactive beyond its default? small package installs are not interactive |
| 17:37.29 | BCMM | ilikeyou: as in always ask, even if it won't install any extra packages? |
| 17:38.21 | ilikeyou | BCMM: yes |
| 17:38.34 | BCMM | ilikeyou: i don't think so, but you could always do a dry-run first |
| 17:39.06 | jhutchins | mulletman: Can you tab complete the names? |
| 17:39.38 | jhutchins | mulletman: What have you tried, just the image programs? |
| 17:40.00 | mulletman | jhutchins, yes I can tab complete the names but not rename them in the term |
| 17:40.38 | mulletman | jhutchins, I have tried the term, a few file mans, and an image program, as well as tar'ing them none of the programs seem to know what to do and spit out various errors |
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| 17:42.04 | mulletman | like when i try mv imgur_WNv6nZ0_which snack?.jpg newfilename.jpg i get mv: cannot stat 'imgur_WNv6nZ0_which snack?.jpg': Input/output error |
| 17:42.46 | mulletman | same when i try putting quotes around the name (actually quotes returns a no such file or dir) |
| 17:43.20 | ilikeyou | BCMM: fair enough. thanks |
| 17:43.27 | BCMM | mulletman: can you try, like, `stat imgur*`? |
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| 17:45.03 | mulletman | BCMM, mv: cannot stat 'imgur_WNv6nZ0_whic*.jpg': No such file or directory |
| 17:45.19 | mulletman | or were you being literal? with the stat part? |
| 17:46.03 | BCMM | i was being entirely literal. what command did you type? did you quote something? |
| 17:48.05 | mulletman | stat imgur_WNv6nZ0* returns stat: cannot stat 'imgur_WNv6nZ0_which snack?.jpg': Input/output error |
| 17:48.38 | mulletman | I can't separate this file from the others, there are a bunch in one dir |
| 17:48.45 | BCMM | "Input/output error". oh. |
| 17:49.00 | jhutchins | mulletman: Have you tried escaping the space with \ ? I know quotes should cover that, but it's worth a try. |
| 17:49.13 | BCMM | mulletman: anything interesting in dmesg? could there be something wrong with the filesystem? |
| 17:49.48 | BCMM | (or indeed the disk) |
| 17:49.50 | jhutchins | mulletman: There's a utility called "mc" (midnight commander) that used to be our go-to tool for dealing with difficult filenames. |
| 17:50.28 | BCMM | Input/output error doesn't seem like it's a filename thing to me |
| 17:50.37 | mulletman | really? I actually stopped using mc awhile ago because it totally mauled a slew of files (thier names), not on this batch though |
| 17:50.47 | mulletman | will check dmesg |
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| 17:53.12 | mulletman | well I dont understand much from dmesg but it did show an error cound since last fsck as 1, can post to a pastebin? |
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| 17:53.24 | choice | Hello! How can I tell my laptop that it should lock the screen when I close the lid? (lock screen and suspend would be even better) |
| 17:54.14 | quadrathoch2 | Choice look under power management in your de |
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| 17:54.58 | BCMM | mulletman: please do pastebin that |
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| 17:55.07 | choice | quadrathoch2: I did. There is nothing. |
| 17:55.39 | BCMM | choice: what DE? |
| 17:56.10 | choice | BCMM: The one with the taskbar .. what was it called again? |
| 17:56.23 | choice | BCMM: Mate! |
| 17:57.06 | mulletman | BCMM, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a56ce22b/ |
| 17:59.02 | BCMM | mulletman: this isn't a physical machine, is it? |
| 17:59.22 | BCMM | oh right, qubes |
| 17:59.31 | mulletman | BCMM, I am accessing a physical disk from a VM |
| 17:59.44 | mulletman | sorry, didnt think that was relevant? |
| 17:59.59 | BCMM | [ 4.090782] EXT4-fs (xvdb): warning: mounting fs with errors, running e2fsck is recommended |
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| 18:00.03 | mulletman | an external physical disk that is |
| 18:00.07 | BCMM | did fsck get run? |
| 18:00.51 | mulletman | I havent run it yet, but that is not actually the drive that is having problems, afaik i can access everything on xvdb |
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| 18:01.10 | mulletman | the disk that has files i cant seem to do anything with is xvdi |
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| 18:02.46 | BCMM | i can't see an xvdi. i guess i don't know much about xen virtual block devices |
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| 18:04.01 | mulletman | I only saw one mention of it in the dmesg output, [ 118.659910] blkfront: xvdi: barrier or flush: disabled; persistent grants: enabled; indirect descriptors: enabled; |
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| 18:05.21 | mulletman | Do you think connecting the phys ext disk to a win machine and running whatever win uses to check disks would be of benefit? as its an ntfs fs |
| 18:06.26 | quadrathoch2 | mulletman very much as the ntfs Tools are not great on linux |
| 18:06.38 | quadrathoch2 | chance, sorry no idea about mate |
| 18:06.49 | quadrathoch2 | choice ^ |
| 18:07.50 | mulletman | quadrathoch2, thanks. The ext drive is a "drobo" and the consensus seems to be that any of the extfs on it are not a great idea hence the ntfs |
| 18:07.53 | BCMM | mulletman: is it an ntfs disk? |
| 18:08.03 | BCMM | oh right sorry you answered that |
| 18:08.12 | BCMM | yes you should probably use windows to check your ntfs disk |
| 18:08.12 | mulletman | BCMM, yes (no worries) |
| 18:08.24 | mulletman | ok, will try that when i get home. thanks all! |
| 18:08.31 | BCMM | (in general avoid ntfs unless you're exchanging data with a windows system) |
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| 18:11.52 | sig_9 | BCMM: not necessarily |
| 18:12.20 | Voltum | whats the command to see version of package available in various repos? like backports, stable etc? |
| 18:12.29 | Voltum | apt-policy something i think |
| 18:13.15 | BCMM | Voltum: apt-cache policy? |
| 18:13.16 | greycat | you from *your* system? uh... aptitude? rmadison or something? from here, you'd ask judd. |
| 18:13.22 | sig_9 | apt search packagename |
| 18:13.36 | greycat | I guess apt policy would also work. |
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| 18:14.38 | BCMM | are all these shortcuts in the apt command documented somewhere? |
| 18:14.45 | sig_9 | apt search |
| 18:14.45 | apt | rumour has it, search is try 'apt-cache search <regex>', if you want to know what package owns a file use dpkg -S /bin/foo. To find a package based on what files it includes use 'apt-get install apt-file;apt-file update;apt-file search foo'. Use http://packages.debian.org if you're not on a debian system. /msg apt find <thing> if you're already here. |
| 18:14.47 | BCMM | `apt policy` isn't mentioned `man apt` |
| 18:15.32 | greycat | The apt and apt-get man pages are definitely incomplete. |
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| 18:16.38 | Voltum | another question, i see a package available both in buster and buster-backports (which i have enabled): to install it i do apt-get -t buster-backports package |
| 18:16.53 | Voltum | is there a way to always get that package from backports, without having to specify -t |
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| 18:17.26 | greycat | No. By design. On purpose. backports are NOT to be used as a default for new packages. |
| 18:17.45 | greycat | Once you've installed it from backports, though, future updates to backports should be used by "apt update". |
| 18:17.53 | greycat | err, "apt upgrade" |
| 18:17.54 | Voltum | oh i see |
| 18:18.13 | BCMM | Voltum: what do you mean by "always get that package from backports"? |
| 18:18.34 | BCMM | do you want something you can set just for that specific package, or do you want apt to *always* prefer backports? |
| 18:18.39 | Voltum | i was looking specifically for ejabberd, they dont seem to provide a repository (like nginx does) with the latest stable for debian, they just provide a deb package |
| 18:18.50 | greycat | ,v ejabberd |
| 18:18.51 | judd | Package: ejabberd on amd64 -- jessie: 14.07-4+deb8u3; stretch: 16.09-4; stretch-backports: 18.12.1-2~bpo9+1; buster: 18.12.1-2; buster-backports: 20.12-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 20.12-1; sid: 20.12-1 |
| 18:19.06 | Voltum | no i just wanted to grab the latest every time i upgrade, without having to manually get the deb file from their site |
| 18:19.30 | greycat | once you install it from buster-backports it should continue to use any future updates from buster-backports *IF* there are any |
| 18:19.31 | BCMM | Voltum: if you with -t backports it will get updates from backports in future |
| 18:19.39 | BCMM | ^if you install with |
| 18:20.23 | greycat | There's no guarantee that anyone will update it in buster-backports. Depends on how many people care about it, and how responsive they are to new versions. |
| 18:20.31 | BCMM | you don't have to do, like, apt upgrade -t buster-backports or anything |
| 18:20.43 | Voltum | yeah, thing is i do the installation with ansible, will have to see if they offer a mechanism for that |
| 18:20.52 | BCMM | yes, ok. obviously it will not install updates if no updates exist. thanks greycat. |
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| 18:21.30 | BCMM | point is that you won't be stuck with a new version in backports being ignored while apt waits for the stable version to overtake it |
| 18:21.34 | Voltum | gneh |
| 18:21.52 | Voltum | they do have a mechanism for specifying -t, with the apt module. so everything is good |
| 18:22.23 | Voltum | BCMM, i see |
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| 18:24.16 | mulletman | BCMM, would what ever macs use cooperate better with linux than ntfs? |
| 18:24.21 | sig_9 | Voltum: lots of different ways to search packages |
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| 18:24.29 | sig_9 | apt search I use a lot: https://ibb.co/V3b6MZX |
| 18:25.06 | mulletman | I just ask because it seems to be inadvisable to use extfs on drobo, which leaves me with ntfs or i think the mac fs (drobo seems to be pretty mac centric) |
| 18:25.27 | BCMM | mulletman: i don't know, i don't use macs much. doesn't linux natively support hfs? |
| 18:25.35 | Voltum | another thing, i automate an apt installation with ansible and don't want to lose my previous confs. i see dpkg offers these options: --force-confnew --force-confdef --force-confold. according to the manpage, i can use both --force-confold and --force-confdef, in which case the default option is preferred otherwise the old config is kept |
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| 18:26.12 | Voltum | are there packages that have already defined a default option? like keep old config or replace with the new one? i usually always use the old conf |
| 18:26.22 | sig_9 | you can download "extFS" for mac |
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| 18:26.31 | sig_9 | it will allow you to use ext4 FS's |
| 18:26.38 | mulletman | BCMM, not sure, will check into that. I am just assuming that since mac is *NIX based, the fs it uses would likely play with linux better. cheers |
| 18:26.58 | sig_9 | mulletman: it will, just download the extFS for Mac |
| 18:27.11 | BCMM | mulletman: looks like hfs+ only works as read-write if the journal is switched off |
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| 18:27.42 | sig_9 | also you can add ext4 support to macOS with 'osxfuse' and |
| 18:27.48 | sig_9 | 'ext4fuse' |
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| 19:25.43 | daysun | how do you update a system behind a very strong firewall? |
| 19:26.48 | greycat | Depends on what your options are. Can the system be taken offline and moved physically to a place that isn't restricted? Can you poke a temporary hole through the firewall? |
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| 19:27.55 | daysun | Full control over the firewall. |
| 19:28.03 | daysun | interesting idea.. to temporarily open it up! |
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| 19:28.16 | daysun | pets greycat!! |
| 19:28.38 | daysun | You deserve another one! |
| 19:28.43 | daysun | pets greycat! |
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| 19:30.12 | daysun | I was thinking about opening up the correct ports and such for updates.. but that's a hassle I suppose? |
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| 19:41.16 | greycat | Only you will know how much of a hassle each option is. |
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| 19:46.02 | Wafficus | Hi there, I have question regarding Debian 10 Buster. I want to force an Emacs 27 install. Do I have to upgrade to a more experimental version? |
| 19:46.14 | Wafficus | *Emacs Version 27 to install itself. |
| 19:46.29 | Wafficus | currently, I have Emacs 26.1 installed |
| 19:47.14 | quadrathoch2 | ,v emacs |
| 19:47.15 | judd | Package: emacs on amd64 -- jessie: 46.1; stretch: 46.1; buster: 1:26.1+1-3.2+deb10u1; buster-updates: 1:26.1+1-3.2+deb10u1; bullseye: 1:27.1+1-3; sid: 1:27.1+1-3 |
| 19:47.33 | quadrathoch2 | ,checkbackport emacs |
| 19:47.58 | judd | Backporting package emacs in sidâbuster/amd64: all build-dependencies satisfied using archignore, buster, virtual. |
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| 19:48.10 | quadrathoch2 | !ssb |
| 19:48.10 | dpkg | First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>. |
| 19:48.22 | quadrathoch2 | Wafficus ^ |
| 19:48.35 | Wafficus | ah, bear with me on this one |
| 19:48.39 | greycat | Your choices are to backport it yourself (see above); or to build from upstream source code; or to upgrade your whole system to testing. |
| 19:48.49 | Wafficus | so I have to install a "backport" that's compatible with Debian 10 Buster? |
| 19:48.52 | Wafficus | ah gotcha |
| 19:48.57 | Wafficus | I would upgrade my whole system to testing |
| 19:48.59 | Wafficus | that I don't mind |
| 19:49.02 | greycat | Or, the best choice of all for most people, just live with the version you have. |
| 19:49.05 | Wafficus | I only literally use the VM for Emacs |
| 19:49.19 | Wafficus | can't live with that version of Emacs, there's a lot of changes that just are better in the latest one |
| 19:49.34 | Wafficus | so how do I force Debian to upgrade itself to the testing branch instead of Debian 10 Buster stable |
| 19:49.43 | greycat | !testing |
| 19:49.43 | dpkg | Testing is a continuously updated release between <stable> and <unstable>, currently codenamed <bullseye>. See http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting . Support in #debian-next on irc.oftc.net and ask me about <testing faq> <buster->bullseye> <testing security> <moving target> <apt-listchanges> <apt-listbugs> and <bts>. You need a sound knowledge of Debian and be prepared for a very bumpy ride. Don't use it on things that are critical! |
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| 19:51.54 | ratrace | !testing-security |
| 19:51.55 | dpkg | Security updates in testing are delayed by the normal testing migration *and* may be further delayed by missing dependencies, etc. See https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing ; «deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main» can be used (but will be empty). |
| 19:52.30 | ratrace | this should be separately highlighted in the !testing factoid |
| 19:52.53 | greycat | It's a rather long factoid already. |
| 19:53.18 | greycat | <testing security> is there ... is that different from <testing-security>? |
| 19:53.25 | ratrace | sure, what I mean is <testing security> should be made more visible in that factoid |
| 19:54.02 | ratrace | greycat: they're aliases |
| 19:54.14 | greycat | debian-next says THREE TIMES that it's on the OFTC network, and yet people still don't read it |
| 19:54.50 | ratrace | point taken :) |
| 19:56.55 | quadrathoch2 | hm, is there a Tool on the cli, that does basically ,checkbackport? |
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| 20:28.33 | Wafficus | I upgraded to Testing, but its not letting me update Emacs to 27: https://termbin.com/goza |
| 20:29.46 | greycat | !debian-next |
| 20:29.47 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 20:30.36 | Wafficus | ok thanks |
| 20:30.45 | greycat | anyway, try "apt full-upgrade" |
| 20:30.49 | Wafficus | ah man, its not on Frenode |
| 20:30.53 | Wafficus | *Freenode... |
| 20:30.57 | Wafficus | yikes |
| 20:31.26 | petn-randall | yikes? |
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| 20:32.13 | CrystalMath | yeah it's a scary world out there, beyond freenode |
| 20:32.50 | Wafficus | its more of an annoyance to have to connect to a different network, register etc. |
| 20:33.07 | Wafficus | I'll have to figure that one out as this Kiwi instance is primarily freenode based |
| 20:34.07 | CrystalMath | you don't need to register for one visit |
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| 20:34.41 | Wafficus | yeah I tried using the links above (https://wiki.debian.org/IRC) (https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc) but I can't figure out how to register for that particular channel |
| 20:35.44 | sney | registration is required for #debian-next. it only takes a few seconds and the nickserv syntax is simple, see '/msg nickserv help register' on your oftc-connected client |
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| 20:38.20 | Wafficus | when I tried the related command "/msg NickServ REGISTER debian-next foo@bar.com", it said I'm already connected as my current username |
| 20:38.50 | Wafficus | CrystalMath that's not true. You need to be invited to that #debian-next channel |
| 20:39.06 | sney | Wafficus: if you're getting 'invite only' you have not connected to oftc, you're still on freenode |
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| 20:40.21 | sney | oftc has a web chat if that helps, https://www.oftc.net/WebChat/ |
| 20:41.25 | Wafficus | thanks that was very helpful sney |
| 20:41.59 | ratrace | and that nickserv command is totally wrong unless you intend to register with "debian-next" as password |
| 20:43.06 | greycat | sney: you can register on OFTC through nickserv now? When I did it, I had to use a web page. |
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| 20:43.40 | sney | greycat: it's 2 steps, first with nickserv and then verification on the website |
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| 21:01.49 | chakpapa | Does the Debian Security Team manage Testing at least during the Freeze period? Or is it only after it enters stable they take it? |
| 21:02.41 | petn-randall | chakpapa: Usually at some point during freeze they announce they have everything place and provide security support. |
| 21:02.56 | chakpapa | Ok. Got it. |
| 21:03.14 | chakpapa | Did bullseye already enter the transitional freeze yet? Was marked for today I suppose |
| 21:03.52 | greycat | !debian-next |
| 21:03.52 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 21:04.06 | chakpapa | greycat thanks |
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| 21:07.49 | sney | the wiki and this page https://release.debian.org/bullseye/freeze_policy.html still say today, and there was no email from d-d-a suggesting otherwise, so I think it's safe to assume this is accurate. the subsequent soft/hard/full freezes will probably have more fanfare. |
| 21:08.47 | chakpapa | Thanks |
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| 21:21.23 | babaorheum | Hello, i have a problem with dpkg-buildpackage. I refresh all debian/patch and succeed to applies them with "quilt push -a". But when i launch "dpkg-buildpackage", quilt fails to apply the patches and i don't understand why. |
| 21:22.26 | sney | babaorheum: this is more of a user support channel, you may have better results in #packaging or #debian-mentors on oftc (note, right now you are on freenode) |
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| 21:22.58 | babaorheum | sney: Ok, thank you :-) |
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| 22:29.30 | jhutchins | Pilot threatens to put plane down in Kansas, throw troublemakers off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVxZS0QqxIM&feature=emb_imp_woyt |
| 22:30.15 | abrotman | wrong channel ? |
| 22:30.38 | jhutchins | abrotman: Hey, you're good. Yeah, sorry, meant for the Kansas LUG. |
| 22:31.15 | abrotman | I only watch IRC for jhutchins posting youtube links .. |
| 22:34.39 | dvs | Does Kansas have a Debian question??? ;-) |
| 22:36.26 | jhutchins | Often. They come here. Some of answer questions too. |
| 22:36.49 | jhutchins | Just more fun from a trackpad on a couch. |
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| 22:54.47 | jhutchins | Not that laptop trackpads on a desk are much better. |
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| 23:10.39 | DDDD | I tried installing python 3.9 as altinstall from source, but getting the error "import _tkinter # If this fails your Python may not be configured for Tk ModuleNotFoundError: No module named '_tkinter'" |
| 23:11.06 | DDDD | As far as i know turtle comes with python per default so what am i missing? |
| 23:11.21 | DDDD | Is there any deb package for python 3.9 that one could install instead? |
| 23:12.04 | sney | python 3.9 is available in bullseye, and if this is a desktop/development system then it may be smart to upgrade anyway |
| 23:12.19 | sney | ,v python3.9 |
| 23:12.20 | judd | Package: python3.9 on amd64 -- bullseye: 3.9.1-1; sid: 3.9.1-2 |
| 23:12.38 | DDDD | Nahh it's my desktop computer, but i'm doing a course which requires latest python. |
| 23:12.58 | DDDD | ahh cool. |
| 23:13.12 | DDDD | when did bullseye get released? |
| 23:13.43 | sney | it'll likely be released this fall. but the freeze process started today, so it'll be pretty consistent from now on |
| 23:13.52 | sney | dpkg: buster->bullseye |
| 23:13.52 | dpkg | In /etc/apt/sources.list, change "buster" to "bullseye", remove lines like buster-backports, debian-multimedia <dmo>, and other 3rd party repos as they are known to cause issues then do: apt update && apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade. Note that testing is a <moving target> and may be buggy, and read the sid FAQ: https://deb.li/sidfaq |
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| 23:14.41 | DDDD | Any big issues with bullseye? Would hate to break my current environment :P |
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| 23:17.21 | sney | I've been using it regularly for over a year and it's very solid now. there may be some changes to how your applications behave after upgrades, but debian testing at this point in the dev cycle is more stable than some distros' actual releases |
| 23:19.20 | DDDD | Guessing it's not possible to just install that python .deb package on current buster? |
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| 23:21.02 | sney | nope, bullseye packages are not built for previous debian versions, and messing with python can easily wreck your system too |
| 23:21.57 | DDDD | I'll see if i can find someway to make a snapshot of the current OS and then upgrade, worst case i can roll back then |
| 23:23.27 | jhutchins | DDDD: Freeze is when they publish the bad brakes and take the time to fix them properly, so tetsting can be down for weeks. |
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| 23:24.26 | jhutchins | DDDD: One way to do it is to set up a dual-boot so you can still use the computer while they're fixing stuff. You just chroot to the testing install, run apt update, and see if it works. |
| 23:25.10 | jhutchins | I did that for the intel video upgrade, took a LOONG time. |
| 23:26.22 | DDDD | Reason for why being so careful is because i do some work from home which requires me to encrypt all my disks. I do have backups for my most important files but if something goes wrong i don't have the linux technical knowledge of reinstalling debian while setting up the LUKS to work again without formating everything. |
| 23:26.42 | petn-randall | sney: Now new transitions can be started from today, and buildessential packages are frozen. There are still a lot migrations going on right now in bullseye. |
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| 23:28.40 | sney | petn-randall: it's still pretty ok for a desktop, and the most straightforward way to get a debian system with python 3.9 without jumping through extra hoops. |
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| 23:30.44 | petn-randall | DDDD: Use virtualenv if you need python3.9, that way you don't have to fiddle with the system packages. |
| 23:31.24 | sney | you can virtualenv a newer python? |
| 23:31.36 | sney | well, that blows away my whole argument :D never mind |
| 23:31.52 | DDDD | My plan: B was to install Debian bullseye on a vm lol, not an ideal solution but |
| 23:32.49 | ratrace | uh, how do you install a py3.9 venv if you don't already have py3.9 on the system? |
| 23:33.51 | DDDD | I do have py.39 on my system but because i installed it from the source with altinstall it does not seem to include tkinter |
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| 23:35.16 | DDDD | turtle module which requires tkinter seems to work great with python 3.7 but not when i decide to run .py files with python 3.9 |
| 23:35.58 | sney | python is big and complicated, it's possible you were missing some build dep or the build system needed a special flag enabled |
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