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| 00:20.22 | DDDD | Damn i fell in love with xfce, is there anyway to switch from KDE without breaking shit? |
| 00:20.32 | DDDD | or install it on top |
| 00:21.03 | Mister00X | DDDD: you coud allways create a new user |
| 00:21.15 | Mister00X | and use that for xfce |
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| 00:21.20 | sney | you can have multiple DEs installed as long as you have disk space |
| 00:22.34 | sney | I have lxqt installed as a backup on this system in case of plasma shenanigans (haven't needed it in a while, but you never know), same user, no conflicts. |
| 00:22.56 | DDDD | KDE is not but it's a bit to blingy at times |
| 00:23.06 | DDDD | xfce seems very clean and nice |
| 00:23.33 | DDDD | I read somewhere before that installing multiple DE's could break stuff hence why i asked. |
| 00:23.43 | DDDD | Sney how do you decide to which one to use at login? |
| 00:23.48 | DDDD | for the same user |
| 00:24.05 | sney | the display manager has a menu. in gdm3 it's next to the login button, for lightdm or sddm it's a drop down in the corner |
| 00:24.14 | sney | log out, select session type, log back in |
| 00:24.54 | sney | 'apt install task-xfce-desktop' to get the standard debian xfce environment |
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| 00:25.14 | Mister00X | sney: what about conflicting configs is that a myth? |
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| 00:26.05 | sney | Mister00X: ~/.config is pretty well separated in the current era. in the past, there was some chance of things being overwritten, but modern stuff keeps to itself |
| 00:26.36 | Mister00X | good to know! |
| 00:26.39 | sney | it might get hairy if you're using the same program in both DEs, and trying to keep different settings for it, but that's really an edge case |
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| 00:27.32 | Mister00X | I see so one thing less to avoid |
| 00:28.00 | Mister00X | that's a good improvement |
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| 00:29.15 | DDDD | sney: same program such as something included in the DE's? Does this mean changing settings on for example firefox on one DE will overwrite the changes on the other one? |
| 00:29.26 | DDDD | Not that i care as i'd want the same settings on both anyways but :P |
| 00:30.18 | sney | like if I wanted hexchat to use a different theme in lxqt than it does in plasma, I'd probably have to script something to run at login, because hexchat's settings are always in ~/.config/hexchat regardless of DE |
| 00:31.15 | sney | same idea with firefox, yeah |
| 00:31.57 | DDDD | ahh okay |
| 00:32.12 | DDDD | I'd want same settings for everything probably so sounds like i don't need to care. |
| 00:32.13 | DDDD | Thanks sney! |
| 00:32.17 | sney | np |
| 00:32.21 | DDDD | Also got bullseye working on my VM now :D |
| 00:32.27 | DDDD | Thanks for the tip |
| 00:32.34 | sney | np, have fun |
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| 00:34.25 | Xacyllum | Hi, a question regarding static routing: |
| 00:41.19 | DDDD | sney apparently i have two display managers installed, lightdm and sddm. xfce installation is asking which i want to use ask default |
| 00:42.34 | sney | it makes no practical difference. I find sddm looks nicer, but it's your choice |
| 00:46.17 | ratrace | Xacyllum: that's a novel, not a question, if it's taking this long..... |
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| 00:47.40 | DDDD | Strange getting import tkinter as TK ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'tkinter' even on Bullseye. Python 3.9 is installed by default but seems like it's not compiled with tkinter |
| 00:48.19 | Xacyllum | ratrace: have to anonymize it and write it down at first on kwrite ;) |
| 00:48.24 | Xacyllum | not very much |
| 00:48.43 | sney | DDDD: you are probably just missing the python3-tk package |
| 00:48.49 | sney | ,i python3-tk --release bullseye |
| 00:48.53 | judd | Package python3-tk (python, optional) in bullseye/amd64: Tkinter - Writing Tk applications with Python 3.x. Version: 3.9.1-2; Size: 97.3k; Installed: 460k |
| 00:50.07 | DDDD | sney i could kiss you but you probably don't want that :P |
| 00:50.09 | DDDD | thanks a bunch |
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| 00:59.55 | emOne | t |
| 01:02.12 | Xacyllum | Ok, now I'm done, only five lines :D had to get an overview to don't get muddled. |
| 01:02.32 | Xacyllum | we have the networks 192.168.88.0/22, 192.168.40.0/23, 192.168.10.0/24. |
| 01:02.33 | Xacyllum | On 192.168.80.73 is a router to route from 192.168.40.0 to 192.168.10.0, it has a interface on 192.168.10.0, too. It works already. |
| 01:02.54 | Xacyllum | Which static route do I need on 192.168.40.131 to make it work? |
| 01:03.17 | Xacyllum | I tried this static route, but it doesn't work, because I also need to add a second route route from 192.168.40.0/23 to 192.168.88.0/24. |
| 01:03.18 | Xacyllum | /sbin/route add -net 192.168.10.0 gw 192.168.80.73 netmask 255.255.255.0 |
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| 01:06.03 | Xacyllum | I tried "route add -host 131.173.161.177 dev eth0", but I forgot something. |
| 01:06.35 | Xacyllum | ehhhh |
| 01:07.50 | Xacyllum | "route add -host 192.168.80.73 dev eth0" |
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| 02:21.32 | qr3461 | anyone know if virtual box is available on debian in the repo? |
| 02:21.47 | sney | !virtualbox |
| 02:21.47 | dpkg | Oracle VM VirtualBox is <virtualization> software. Not in buster and unlikely to be in any future debian stable releases due to #794466. Unofficial backports are available as well as 3rd party packages from Oracle, see https://wiki.debian.org/VirtualBox to install; we recommend <virt-manager> instead. http://www.virtualbox.org/ #vbox on irc.freenode.net. |
| 02:22.46 | sney | if you don't *need* virtualbox-brand-virtualbox, and just want to virtualize some stuff on the desktop to test, take a few minutes to learn virt-manager. less headache in the long run. |
| 02:23.12 | qr3461 | i actually have virt-manager |
| 02:23.27 | qr3461 | and i like it quite a bit, but was having some trouble with the networking |
| 02:23.35 | qr3461 | and the documentation was a bit difficult to parse at times |
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| 02:26.05 | sney | virt-manager's documentation can be a little vague because it's just a frontend to libvirt/qemu tools. anything more complex than a basic nat or bridge probably requires understanding how to do it with qemu, and then applying that to the gui; but at that point you might have outgrown libvirt/virtualbox anyway and need a more dedicated hypervisor |
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| 02:29.45 | sway | I use libvirt/qemu with the Virtual Machine Manager (VMM) and find it to be rock solid. The only non-linux VM I have problems building with it is Win10. |
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| 02:31.19 | qr3461 | sney, are you good with virt-manager/libvert/qemu? i actually have a networking question that I haven't been able to figure out from the docs |
| 02:31.59 | qr3461 | basically, I set the networking to user networking, but would like to create a firewall on my host that will block some IP addresses that the guest is trying to connect to |
| 02:32.38 | qr3461 | ive tried with firewalld on the libvirt group but it did nothing unfortunately |
| 02:32.56 | qr3461 | and tried applying iptables to the vnet and virbr that libvirt creates but didnt work either |
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| 02:36.03 | sney | if you want to firewall traffic from your vm guests then applying it to the virbr interface is the correct approach, you probably just need to prioritize your firewall rules better, and make sure you understand the distinction between the 'input' and 'forward' tables |
| 02:38.16 | sney | er, chains. I rarely use host firewalls so sometimes I lose the terms. |
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| 03:44.19 | qr3461 | sney, apologies, was away for a bit. If youre still here and can give me a quick rundown on the difference, that would be very helpful |
| 03:44.34 | qr3461 | glad to know i was on track with applying the rules on virbr |
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| 03:45.24 | qr3461 | like for example, if I sent a ping to 1.1.1.1 on the guest, it would get sent from the vnet to the virbr and then to the physical devices on the host if i understand correctly |
| 03:45.52 | qr3461 | how would I then, on the host, check that the packet is going to 1.1.1.1, and then create a rule that will deny this packet? |
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| 03:46.18 | qr3461 | maybe i need a forwarding deny rule or something? im not too sure, not an expert on this stuff |
| 03:46.31 | sney | I'm here but I can't really commit the time to help with firewall basics. luckily, there's youtube, and a lot of text manuals. and ##networking on this network is ok if you have thick skin. |
| 03:47.17 | sney | networking/firewalls seem like something that linux people should just be able to pick up, but it's really a whole different field. netfilter.org has some good diagrams to give you a leg up iirc |
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| 03:51.54 | sponix | sney: gufw for the win :) |
| 03:52.21 | sponix | takes nearly plain English and writes the rules for you |
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| 04:04.25 | galex-713 | Hi |
| 04:04.39 | budlight | hi |
| 04:04.41 | galex-713 | How can I know what version of gcc have been used to build a given .deb package packaged into main stable? |
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| 04:05.34 | JackFrost | Soon you hopefully will be able to just look at a buildinfo file, but you should be able to look at the buildlogs. |
| 04:05.44 | sney | it'll be the same gcc as you get when you install build-essential, but you can see the build logs at buildd.debian.org |
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| 04:07.43 | galex-713 | stable is buster, right? |
| 04:07.52 | galex-713 | sney: is it necessarily the case? |
| 04:08.07 | sney | current stable is buster, yes |
| 04:08.28 | sney | and buster packages were built in buster build chroots |
| 04:08.53 | galex-713 | what about debugging symbols? do they come necessarily from the same build process? |
| 04:09.03 | sney | yes, and in a separate section. |
| 04:09.06 | sney | !dbgsym |
| 04:09.06 | dpkg | Packages that end in '*-dbgsym' contain the symbols required for debugging executables and libraries. The dbgsym packages are automatically generated packages that are in a separate archive; add a line like "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-debug/ buster-debug main" to your sources.list. See also https://wiki.debian.org/HowToGetABacktrace |
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| 04:09.37 | sney | security.debian.org doesn't have a dbgsym section but those packages can often be found in stable-proposed-updates too, which does |
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| 04:10.54 | sney | ,v gcc-8 |
| 04:10.55 | judd | Package: gcc-8 on amd64 -- buster: 8.3.0-6; bullseye: 8.4.0-5; sid: 8.4.0-6 |
| 04:11.01 | galex-713 | I arrived on that page: https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=telegram-desktop&suite=buster |
| 04:11.09 | galex-713 | but I donât know what link to follow then |
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| 04:11.23 | galex-713 | if I click on âamd64â, the page looks no more related to telegram-desktop anymore |
| 04:12.17 | sney | you have to click on the log in the log column |
| 04:12.24 | sney | for that one it's 'old' |
| 04:12.54 | sney | from there the result column has the link to the text log |
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| 04:13.06 | galex-713 | but then I get only builds marked as âsidâ between parenthesis |
| 04:13.08 | galex-713 | is that normal? |
| 04:13.20 | sney | yes. all packages are initially built for sid and uploaded to sid. |
| 04:14.40 | galex-713 | oh |
| 04:14.57 | galex-713 | but why isnât the gcc version the same as I have now then? |
| 04:15.18 | sney | !your screen |
| 04:15.19 | dpkg | Your screen is in front of your face. #debian cannot see it. Please give as many details as you can about the problem. It wastes our time and yours when we have to guess what is on your screen. See <context>, <what> |
| 04:15.30 | galex-713 | it seems to say âgcc-8_8.2.0-15â instead of âgcc-8_8.3.0-6â there |
| 04:15.43 | galex-713 | https://buildd.debian.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=telegram-desktop&arch=amd64&ver=1.5.11-1&stamp=1549231362&raw=0 |
| 04:16.10 | galex-713 | is this the build log of the telegram-desktop and telegram-desktop-dbgsyms that I can find in stable currently? |
| 04:16.55 | sney | should be, that's what the page says. hm. maybe this package was built earlier in the testing cycle and never needed a rebuild |
| 04:17.16 | sney | ,v telegram-desktop |
| 04:17.17 | judd | Package: telegram-desktop on amd64 -- stretch-backports: 1.1.23-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1.5.11-1; buster-backports: 2.2.0+ds-2~bpo10+1; bullseye: 2.2.0+ds-5; sid: 2.2.0+ds-5 |
| 04:18.58 | sney | ok, so telegram-desktop was uploaded to sid (and then built, with the log you see there) on 03 Feb 2019. so it was built with the sid/buster toolchain that we had at that time. https://tracker.debian.org/news/1026970/accepted-telegram-desktop-1511-1-source-into-unstable/ |
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| 04:19.19 | galex-713 | ok thank you |
| 04:19.31 | sney | makes sense that it could be a slightly earlier gcc-8 than the one at release 5 months later. |
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| 05:05.28 | daysun | what can you expect if you set the system to update/upgrade and reboot once per day? |
| 05:05.53 | daysun | automatically.. and you don't attend for it for a month .. or several |
| 05:06.45 | sney | with predictable power, and a system running stable, you come back a year later and it's on and doing its thing |
| 05:07.09 | sney | every *day* may be overkill depending on your environment. I used to cycle the embedded stuff once a week |
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| 06:04.04 | asarch | ,kernel |
| 06:04.05 | judd | Available kernel versions are: experimental: 5.10.0-trunk-686 (5.10.2-1~exp1); sid: 5.10.0-1-686 (5.10.5-1); bullseye: 5.10.0-1-686 (5.10.4-1); buster-backports: 5.9.0-0.bpo.2-686 (5.9.6-1~bpo10+1); buster: 4.19.0-13-686-pae (4.19.160-2); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.9-686-pae (4.19.118-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.19.0-0.bpo.13-686 (4.19.160-2~deb9u1); jessie-backports: |
| 06:04.06 | judd | 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.12-686 (4.9.210-1+deb9u1~deb8u1) |
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| 06:06.26 | asarch | One stupid question: how do yo make a specific kernel your default kernel? E.g.: buster-backports: 5.9.0-0.bpo.2-686 (5.9.6-1~bpo10+1) |
| 06:08.32 | asarch | I remember there is a dpgk make-default linux-image-5.9.0-0.bpo.2-686 command for that |
| 06:08.49 | asarch | But I can't find it in my notes... :'-( |
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| 06:21.37 | oxek | asarch: what do you mean by default? |
| 06:21.45 | oxek | default in grub? |
| 06:22.39 | oxek | in the repositories, you don't really get a selection of kernels to choose from in debian |
| 06:22.48 | asarch | For example if I install Intel drivers, it "automatically" does it for that kernel version |
| 06:23.35 | oxek | automatically does what? |
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| 06:24.52 | asarch | Install the drivers for every time I update the system |
| 06:25.10 | asarch | *the new drivers patches |
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| 06:27.56 | oxek | asarch: I'm still at a loss of what you're asking. |
| 06:28.20 | oxek | so the intel modules get automatically built on kernel upgrade. Great. What do you need? |
| 06:29.05 | asarch | I'm having troubles with the stable default kernel, it hangs out the laptop |
| 06:29.30 | oxek | so you'd like to try the kernel from buster-backports? |
| 06:29.40 | asarch | And I've trying with other distros and I found that kernels with the ~5.4 version are the problems |
| 06:29.52 | asarch | Yeah |
| 06:29.55 | oxek | easy, run 'sudo apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-amd64' |
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| 06:30.15 | oxek | assuming you have backports repo enabled, and you're on amd64 architecture |
| 06:30.26 | asarch | And so, every time I apt-get update && apt-get -y upgrade, dpkg automatically updates that kernel from backports |
| 06:30.48 | asarch | takes notes... |
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| 06:32.23 | asarch | Than you! Thank you very much oxek! :-) |
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| 06:34.41 | Voltum | hey i installed ejabberd from debian-backports, and this was missing (erlang-p1-pgsql). debian splits support for mysql and psql into different packages.. |
| 06:35.00 | Voltum | installing the deb from their site, never had that issue |
| 06:37.10 | oxek | Voltum: 'apt -t buster-backports depends ejabberd | grep sql' tells me they are Suggests packages |
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| 06:59.34 | unixbsd | badblocks: hello, mkfs.ext2 -c /dev/sda1 is readyonly, mkfs.ext2 -cc /dev/sda1 is fine but takes several days / It is possible to have it faster? Which possible method would exclude but in less time than -cc ? |
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| 07:26.33 | ratrace | unixbsd: maybe using badblocks(8), but I doubt it |
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| 07:51.55 | unixbsd | ratrace: I havent found any other alternative. I noticed that ntfs bad block is little bit faster. xfs does not have any bad block. |
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| 07:53.28 | gholinbrown | can someone confirm the sha256 for debian 10.7.0-amd64 net inst.iso? |
| 07:53.57 | gholinbrown | !hash |
| 07:54.01 | gholinbrown | !hashes |
| 07:54.01 | dpkg | The hash of a file is a string of numbers/digits calculated from its contents in such a way as to mean that if the hash is correct then the file is OK. Debian uses hashes extensively to ensure that apt downloads verified packages for you. Ask me about <secure apt> or see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function |
| 07:54.47 | Mister00X | gholinbrown: you can verify the hash with the sign file |
| 07:55.19 | gholinbrown | how do i know if the sign file is authentic |
| 07:55.39 | pasiz | https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/SHA256SUMS |
| 07:55.51 | pasiz | take it where you download your file |
| 07:56.07 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: There's a gpg signature next to it. |
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| 07:56.32 | Mister00X | gholinbrown: you can verifiy the sing with the fingerprint on the debian website |
| 07:56.50 | Mister00X | those are just hard to find |
| 07:57.06 | gholinbrown | ok how do i verify post installation that the right things installed |
| 07:57.12 | rudi_s | And you can verify it using the debian-role-keys.gpg of a running debian. |
| 07:57.16 | rudi_s | You don't. |
| 07:57.25 | gholinbrown | for example that a MITM didn't compromise a package |
| 07:57.43 | rudi_s | If it was a malicious iso then it's game over. |
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| 07:58.15 | gholinbrown | how do i start a new game? |
| 07:58.19 | rudi_s | If you started with the right iso then all further updates are authenticated (assuming nobobody compromised the build architecture, signing architecture, developer machine, etc.) |
| 07:59.03 | rudi_s | Well, use a trusted system (that might be a problem). Find the proper GPG key (e.g. from colleagues), download ISO, SHASUM, signature, verify everything and install it. |
| 07:59.31 | rudi_s | However, there are many additional attack vectors if you're really paranoid (usb stick, disk, BIOS/UEFI, CPU backdoor, whatever). |
| 08:00.14 | rudi_s | And you have to start somewhere. But checking the signature using gpg and the hash is a good thing to do. |
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| 08:00.44 | rudi_s | That protects against malicious mirrors which I think is the most likely attack (if "most" is even realistic, doubt it happens often). |
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| 08:01.51 | gholinbrown | how do i know the iso burnt to the usb is the same? |
| 08:02.21 | pasiz | gholinbrown: if you verify the iso and write it yourself, how could it be different? |
| 08:02.34 | steven | what if dd was compromised? |
| 08:02.43 | gholinbrown | @pasiz cpu/bios malware possibly |
| 08:02.57 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: You can't. There is always some kind of trust involved |
| 08:03.20 | pasiz | is there channel for #paranoid-image-writers |
| 08:03.25 | steven | that's being a bit too paranoid, gholinbrown if that's your concern order a bootable usb/cd from a trustworthy vendor. |
| 08:03.42 | rudi_s | How do you know that your brain wasn't manipulated and you actually verified the checksums and it wasn't just a fake memory (e.g. as shown in Ghost in Shell, fake memories that is). |
| 08:03.46 | steven | and hope the mail man won't manipulate the image :D |
| 08:04.37 | pasiz | or if your switch have malware to manipulate just debian iso:s |
| 08:04.46 | rudi_s | But if you're up against resourceful attackers they will most likely just enter your house and install malware/cameras/whatever. Or manipulate the BIOS of the computer you just ordered ... |
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| 08:05.34 | pasiz | but if it looks like windows after installing, you should be worried.... |
| 08:05.42 | Mister00X | gholinbrown: if you still want the Fingerprints of the .sign files you can get them here https://www.debian.org/CD/verify.en.html |
| 08:06.45 | steven | how do I know tose keys are not compromised? |
| 08:06.57 | steven | is there like a way to verify the html? |
| 08:07.07 | Mister00X | steven: thats a chicken-egg-problem |
| 08:07.15 | steven | was being sarcastic |
| 08:07.24 | steven | I know, sorry. was just in the whole how can I flow |
| 08:07.31 | Mister00X | knows that |
| 08:08.09 | gholinbrown | having trouble perceived a way out of this. i may be being paranoid but there's no way to know at this point |
| 08:09.01 | Mister00X | thinks the only real way would be to get the fingerprints from the ftp-masters |
| 08:09.14 | Mister00X | in person |
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| 08:11.40 | pasiz | you need ink pad and paper to extract fingerprints in person... Or cigar cutter |
| 08:12.34 | Mister00X | lol... good point pasiz |
| 08:13.23 | gholinbrown | i'll have to manually write the iso to a usb from another device. |
| 08:13.58 | pasiz | i suggest some hex editor to manually write usb stick... |
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| 08:16.08 | ratrace | unixbsd: have you actually tried badblocks(8)? |
| 08:17.29 | ratrace | unixbsd: also, have you measured the throughput to your drive with iostat or vmstat? is it saturated? too much iops, not enough MB/s? increaes block size for badblocks(8) and reduce block count tested at a time so (-b times -c ~ 64k). |
| 08:18.04 | ratrace | (so that -b X -c ~= 64k) |
| 08:18.18 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: Just to increase your paranoia. A USB stick (or a hard disk/SSD for that matter) is just a tiny computer. So it can have malware as well and behave differently when it's booting on your computer then when it's being read from another computer. |
| 08:18.43 | rudi_s | (I'm not trying to troll you. I just want to point out, that you have to draw the line somewhere.) |
| 08:19.41 | gholinbrown | rudi_s and i'm fresh out of new usbs. so i'll have to do the whole installation somehow from the other device |
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| 08:20.17 | gholinbrown | where is the full installation iso btw? i never can find it when i go looking |
| 08:20.21 | ratrace | even a cable can have malware! that's the world we live in! |
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| 08:20.46 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: "new usbs"? Why not just use an existing one. |
| 08:21.08 | rudi_s | It should be a few directory up, they are called 'dvds' in the mirror hierarchy I think. |
| 08:21.09 | gholinbrown | rudi_s i've plugged some of them in to the machine. and i don't know when the potential infection/whatever may have started |
| 08:21.41 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: As I said, you have to draw the line somewhere. You can just erase overwrite it and it will (most likely) be just like new. |
| 08:22.05 | rudi_s | (And how can you assume that it wasn't infected in the first place when you bought it?) |
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| 08:22.57 | Mister00X | !iso |
| 08:22.57 | dpkg | [iso] CD image, a file containing an ISO 9660 standard filesystem. Debian CD/DVD images are available at http://www.debian.org/CD . Also ask me about <netinst> and <check iso image>. To download via BitTorrent or Jigdo, ask me about <bittorrent>, <jigdo>. Debian CD image FAQ: http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/ See also <vendors>, <cd1>, <missing iso>, <blu-ray disc>, <iso mount>, <iat>. |
| 08:23.10 | Mister00X | gholinbrown: you can get the full iso there^^ |
| 08:23.45 | gholinbrown | i assume dvd part 1 is enough for a working installation? |
| 08:23.49 | rudi_s | gholinbrown: Yes |
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| 08:25.03 | dob1 | I am connected via ssh on a debian server and on htop I don't see the names of the user of the processes, I read them if I highlight the line where the process is |
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| 08:26.05 | dob1 | imho it's a "color" problem |
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| 08:26.17 | Mister00X | dob1: that sounds like the color settings of htop match with the backround of your terminal |
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| 08:26.52 | Mister00X | dob1: have you tried changing them |
| 08:27.54 | Mister00X | wait... htop uses curses nevermind that was stupid to say |
| 08:27.57 | rudi_s | Or your TERM is incorrect (either locally or on the remote side). |
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| 08:28.07 | dob1 | Mister00X, if I run htop on the same terminal on the local pc it works perfect, it's on ssh that it doesn't work. for example sudo htop I just see root as user not the other ones until I move the lines |
| 08:28.18 | rudi_s | (You should never set TERM in any shell configuration file, only in your terminal emulator.) |
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| 08:28.59 | Mister00X | dob1: but have you tried changeing the color settings with F2 |
| 08:29.22 | Mister00X | just to exclude that |
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| 08:31.09 | dob1 | Mister00X, I tried several colors, not the light ones, but nothing but as I said in locale it works |
| 08:31.14 | dob1 | *local |
| 08:31.43 | Mister00X | hmm in that case I'm pretty clueless |
| 08:31.48 | dob1 | term on ssh session is screen-256color |
| 08:33.00 | Mister00X | ok on my debian-to-pi ssh just now it works flawlessly |
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| 08:33.37 | unixbsd | ratrace: wow, this is pro answer, I neeed to study this area. thank you |
| 08:33.50 | rudi_s | dob1: And locally? And do you use screen? screen-256color terminfo installed on remote host? Does it work without screen, etc. |
| 08:34.31 | dob1 | rudi_s, local it works, tried several terminal emulator it's the same. I am using tmux. same even if I connect without having tmux running |
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| 08:37.46 | rudi_s | Well, tmux != screen |
| 08:37.55 | rudi_s | And where do you set TERM? |
| 08:39.28 | oxek | my /etc/firewalld/firewalld.conf contains the line 'FirewallBackend=iptables' yet says that 'nftables (default)'. Anyone know why debian changes this default? |
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| 08:44.14 | quadrathoch2 | oxek, i guess that was a mistake, it should be nftables (that's why firewalld has issues working on buster) |
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| 08:51.54 | gholinbrown | i can't even. |
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| 08:55.52 | gildasio | Hi all! I want to get Debian 10.5 netinst ISO but can't found it in CDImage as I do to Debian 10.6 (https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/10.6.0/amd64/iso-cd/). Can someone help me? Thanks :) |
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| 08:57.25 | ratrace | gildasio: why do you need 10.5 specifically? |
| 08:57.58 | gildasio | ratrace: for an internel procedure |
| 08:58.52 | ratrace | !xy |
| 08:58.52 | dpkg | Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem |
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| 09:02.29 | gildasio | thanks ratrace, but it isn't a xy case, because I really need this version. It isn't a troubleshooting issue or something like this. If it were, I would count on your help to a better diagnose |
| 09:02.54 | ratrace | gildasio: I guess there's no other way than with jigdo: https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/10.5.0/amd64/jigdo-cd/ |
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| 09:04.02 | Lope | any idea why initramfs doesn't have stuff like /dev/fd/ ? |
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| 09:05.14 | gildasio | thanks ratrace , I'll look this option |
| 09:08.30 | ratrace | Lope: maybe because it's not loading up the floppy.ko |
| 09:08.46 | Lope | ratrace, hey bud :) |
| 09:08.57 | Lope | ratrace, dkms is failing cos it can't find /dev/fd/63 |
| 09:09.14 | ratrace | owait, I totally misread the dev ... ignore what I said |
| 09:09.17 | Lope | lol, gotta love linux. That magical number of 63, the meaning of everything in the universe. |
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| 09:21.55 | Lope | ratrace, why would `update-initramfs -u -v` say : Available versions: Nothing to do. |
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| 09:33.20 | mrjpaxton | Hey, I'm looking for a way to configure the TTY size when picocom starts up without having to type in "stty cols <x> rows <y>" every time. Anyone have an idea about that? |
| 09:33.59 | ratrace | Lope: dunno.... forgot to mount /boot ? |
| 09:34.38 | Lope | ratrace, haha yeah! |
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| 09:34.50 | Lope | Looks like mount script failed. |
| 09:40.59 | gholinbrown | it's a shame writing to usb takes forever. esp. if usb 2.0 |
| 09:43.23 | Lope | gholinbrown, 99% of USB flash drives are absolute trash. I've stopped using them. |
| 09:43.36 | Lope | gholinbrown, I just use SSD's inside USB enclosures now. |
| 09:44.18 | mrjpaxton | Oh yeah, for sure. I don't miss USB 2.o in the slightest. I'm loving USB-C too much. :p |
| 09:44.52 | gholinbrown | progress bar has been stuck at halfway mark for like 5 minutes (or more) |
| 09:45.03 | mrjpaxton | yeah, about the only good thumb drives are the Sandisk Extreme Go. |
| 09:45.13 | mrjpaxton | And maybe Samsung. |
| 09:45.30 | Lope | USB 3 flash drives are also trash. USB-C is just a connector. |
| 09:45.58 | Lope | I had a samsung 128GB USB3 flash drive. Worst piece of shit ever. |
| 09:46.20 | gholinbrown | i ended the transfer. way way too long |
| 09:46.38 | mrjpaxton | I have an SD card adapter that can take any micro-SD, and "convert" it into a thumb drive. It has one USB 3.0 port, and another one as USB-C. |
| 09:46.44 | Lope | Flash drives are worse than trash actually. Trash doesn't waste time. Time is money and life. Time is everything. USB Flash drives are Satan. |
| 09:46.55 | mrjpaxton | I can post an Amazon link to it if I can find it. Lol. |
| 09:47.05 | Lope | If you see a USB flash drive, get a hammer. |
| 09:47.15 | Lope | Best decision you'll make. |
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| 09:47.25 | Lope | Just wear goggles. |
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| 09:47.52 | Lope | Amazingly I've found microSD is often vastly better than USB flash drives. |
| 09:48.09 | Lope | It's like they think they can get away with putting the absolute lowest quality crap in a flash drive. |
| 09:48.24 | Lope | Whereas microSD must at least handle mobile demands. |
| 09:48.36 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, here it is: https://www.amazon.com/Nekteck-Additional-Standard-Connector-Included/dp/B06XY3B3DQ |
| 09:48.42 | mrjpaxton | This thing is amazing. |
| 09:48.43 | oxek | quadrathoch2: so you think I should switch it to nftables? |
| 09:49.02 | gholinbrown | and now the usb report won't respond |
| 09:49.44 | ratrace | Lope: well I can't disagree with that. _every_ USB stick I've bought in the past several years, even from known brands like kingston.... would die within a year. bad sector kinda deid. and I used them in write once, read seldom cases, for ISOs only |
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| 09:50.13 | ratrace | so it's not "oooh, ahh, you overwrote them too many times". nope, I wrote on them once or twice |
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| 09:50.50 | mrjpaxton | Kingston is pretty awful in particular. :( |
| 09:50.51 | ratrace | now I too use drives I shucked outta enclosures, as rescue/installation things |
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| 09:51.38 | mrjpaxton | Luckily, I have my one Kingston USB drive that survived after 5+ years of being stored away. Lol. |
| 09:51.41 | mrjpaxton | I hardly ever use it. |
| 09:53.02 | Lope | ratrace, sounds about right |
| 09:53.17 | gholinbrown | switched to 3.0 stuck in same spot. |
| 09:53.49 | mrjpaxton | ratrace: I'm too lazy for that. I just buy the WD Ultrastar drives now. |
| 09:54.49 | gholinbrown | cancelled. |
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| 09:55.23 | mrjpaxton | gholinbrown: Are you transferring with rsync? ;) |
| 09:55.25 | gholinbrown | safe remove drive won't work . window turned transparent |
| 09:56.03 | gholinbrown | drag and drop mrjpaxton |
| 09:56.08 | mrjpaxton | Oof. |
| 09:56.47 | ratrace | gholinbrown: is the file manager (that I assume you're using) process in D state when you look up top/htop/ps ? |
| 09:57.01 | mrjpaxton | I dunno if they resume well, or not. I'm a CLI kinda guy. I should really use a desktop once in a while. |
| 09:58.14 | ratrace | also, is anything moving toward the drive at all? check with, eg. `iostat sdb 1` where sdb is the actual device |
| 09:58.34 | gholinbrown | ratrace it locked up said was busy. so i removed the drive manually .now i intiate copy but with smaller file. |
| 09:59.13 | ratrace | gholinbrown: well if it hogs again, same questions apply, before you remove the drive.... |
| 09:59.39 | gholinbrown | lol. so i assumed now it's done. so i do the safe remove. now it's stuck there acting like it won't remove. |
| 10:00.10 | ratrace | probably because linux is lying about data transfers if there's no sync involved and it isn't in dumb tools like file manager GUIs |
| 10:00.32 | ratrace | so it's waiting for the kernel to actaully page out the data to the device. again, check with iostat if any data is moving toward it. |
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| 10:03.45 | gholinbrown | most times i've written gigabyte sized files things do this. lock up etc. and i've gotten pretty screwed before. only way to know for sure if it worked is hash check comparison |
| 10:05.13 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, sync (or fsync) is a thing that I really didn't understand for a while when using Linux, but it is a good way to increase the life of flash media as it decreases writes to them in general, depending on how much RAM you have, or when the device is removed, or your comptuer shuts down. |
| 10:05.39 | mrjpaxton | But it can cause slow flash drives to hang for a while. Lol. |
| 10:05.57 | ratrace | if anything, sync _increases_ writes |
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| 10:06.29 | ratrace | data may change in page cache a few times before the kernel actually pages it out. if you sync'ed after each change, it'd be writing out that each change |
| 10:06.57 | gholinbrown | also always unplug and replug the usb. else the hash check lies. i don't know why this is. |
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| 10:07.13 | mrjpaxton | So, when you write to a file, those changes are stored in RAM, not written to the disk, but then when you remove the flash drive, those changes are finally written. So it could also be a method of wear leveling by spreading writes to RAM and the flash media. |
| 10:07.22 | mrjpaxton | That's as far as I understand it. |
| 10:07.35 | ratrace | problem in linux is that without syncing regularly on (large) data transfers, linux will wait until certain dirty page tresholds are met. that's why you see, eg. dd without sync, blast out super fast and then the rate goes down |
| 10:08.54 | mrjpaxton | For large data, you might also consider wanting filesystem compression. That will also decrease writes. |
| 10:08.56 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: it has nothing to do with wear leveling. it's just writeback cache. |
| 10:09.18 | mrjpaxton | ratrace: Ah, okay. |
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| 10:10.56 | Lope | ratrace, I've installed debian on a new server. When it boots up, it's not online for some reason :/ |
| 10:11.07 | Lope | Does debian have any automagic firewall stuff I should know about? |
| 10:11.13 | Lope | There's no ufw package installed. |
| 10:11.22 | Lope | It's a debootstrap install with tasksel standard. |
| 10:11.29 | ratrace | it doesn't. how did you set up the netwrok, and define "not online". |
| 10:11.52 | Lope | It's not responding to pings, and also can't make a TCP connectio to the SSH port |
| 10:12.04 | Lope | /etc/network/interfaces |
| 10:12.06 | Lope | I'll pastebin it |
| 10:12.08 | ratrace | probably network not or misconfigured |
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| 10:12.34 | ratrace | debootstrap won't set up anything. you have to manually set up network, root pass, ssh access, etc... |
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| 10:13.14 | Lope | I was having problems with the realcrap, I mean realtek ethernet adapter going dead, but I contacted the host and they told me to disable TCP segmentation offload. I also installed r8168 dkms, and from the journal, the ethernet adapter comes up and looks good (logs wise anyway) |
| 10:13.30 | Lope | ah, thanks for reminding me to setup a root pass |
| 10:13.42 | Lope | could not having a root pass prevent the system booting properly? |
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| 10:14.01 | ratrace | I'm not aware of any such situation |
| 10:14.03 | mrjpaxton | Lope: Just so you know, Debian's interfaces is a legacy method at this point. Most people are switching to systemd-networkd, NetworkManager (nmcli) or something else, like netplan. |
| 10:14.14 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: not true |
| 10:14.29 | mrjpaxton | I mean interfaces is still useful! |
| 10:14.35 | ratrace | ifupdown is STILL pretty much the defacto and default network framework in Debian |
| 10:14.44 | Lope | mrjpaxton, I think that's only true on distros like raspbian or whatever they call it. |
| 10:14.48 | BCMM | "legacy" as in Debian plans to stop supporting it at some point, or "legacy" is in you personally have stopped using it? |
| 10:14.52 | ratrace | you're confuzing it with Ubuntu and the nonsense they do with netplan that nobody else would touch with a 10ft pole |
| 10:15.16 | mrjpaxton | Sorry, I guess netplan is a bad example. |
| 10:15.38 | ratrace | extremely bad example |
| 10:16.01 | BCMM | stuff like network-manager is probably a good idea if you have, like, a laptop that moves around and attaches to different wireless networks, and maybe a cellular dongle and a vpn too |
| 10:16.49 | BCMM | but if you have a desktop or server that just always plugs in to the network, and *you want it to keep working*, ifupdown is pretty hard to beat |
| 10:16.53 | mrjpaxton | BCMM: You can also roam with just wpa-supplicant. I have been doing it for a while. |
| 10:17.09 | BCMM | mrjpaxton: sure, and i've done it, but it's kind of a pain |
| 10:17.26 | mrjpaxton | It is, sometimes. Lol. |
| 10:17.27 | BCMM | for just moving around wifi networks i quite like wicd, though |
| 10:18.20 | mrjpaxton | Oh man, I used to use wicd-curses. That was interesting. |
| 10:18.26 | gholinbrown | alright. time to see if the iso works |
| 10:18.57 | ratrace | Lope: installing NIC dkms doesn't sound normal. which chipset is it exactly? also, TCPSO can be configured via ethtool iirc |
| 10:20.25 | quadrathoch2 | oxek as long as you use nftables, yes ;) |
| 10:20.31 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, realtek should be well supported. Maybe you should try backporting the new kernel and see if that works better. Otherwise, I'm not sure.... |
| 10:20.44 | mrjpaxton | I think the newer kernelhas some better Realtek firmware at this point. |
| 10:21.04 | BCMM | <mrjpaxton> Yeah, realtek should be well supported. <-- there are a *lot* of different Realtek NICs |
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| 10:21.29 | BCMM | spanning the whole range of perfect support, no support, and sketchy github support |
| 10:22.30 | mrjpaxton | Lope: Does "lspci | grep -i wireless" give you anything? |
| 10:22.48 | mrjpaxton | I'm just curious what you have. |
| 10:22.50 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: it's a server |
| 10:22.56 | mrjpaxton | Oh sorry, Ethernet. |
| 10:22.58 | mrjpaxton | My bad. |
| 10:23.00 | Lope | ratrace, the ethernet adapter is a piece of turd |
| 10:23.01 | Lope | 22:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI |
| 10:23.01 | Lope | Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 15) |
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| 10:23.36 | mrjpaxton | Hmm... There's three different numbers. Lol. |
| 10:23.38 | Lope | ratrace, yes, I've done the ethtool thing. |
| 10:23.46 | mrjpaxton | That's totally not confusing. /s |
| 10:23.52 | BCMM | "This driver should only be used for devices not yet supported by the in-kernel driver r8169. Please see the README.Debian for instructions how to report bugs against r8169 that made it necessary to use r8168-dkms." |
| 10:23.59 | BCMM | hmm interesting |
| 10:24.11 | ratrace | r8169 supports a wide range of 'em , yea |
| 10:24.38 | Lope | BCMM, before 8168-dkms the ethernet adapter was going offline upon boot |
| 10:24.46 | Lope | but that was before I disabled the offloading |
| 10:24.52 | Lope | I kind of did them at the same time |
| 10:24.54 | BCMM | then i reckon using the dkms package sounds reasonable |
| 10:24.56 | ratrace | and i'd be surprised a hosting company would set up such hardware.... what company is that? perhaps you should replace it with some other, wher techs know what they're doing |
| 10:25.33 | Lope | ratrace, yeah, not too impressed. I asked them to install another nic and they told me to use workarounds haha |
| 10:25.41 | ratrace | what company is that? |
| 10:26.04 | Lope | I'll give you a clue, starts with h and ends in er |
| 10:26.05 | jim | hi... are there plans to have a debian debug server? |
| 10:26.14 | ratrace | Lope: Hetzner?! |
| 10:26.28 | Lope | ratrace, well, I don't want to diss any companies. |
| 10:26.31 | quadrathoch2 | i assume that's a dedicated? |
| 10:26.38 | quadrathoch2 | Lope ^ |
| 10:26.39 | Lope | Yes |
| 10:26.51 | ratrace | Lope: that's extremely surprising. are oyu using some of those old Serverbörse machines* |
| 10:27.06 | Lope | ratrace, nah, a new ryzen |
| 10:27.21 | Lope | must be consumer hardware |
| 10:27.26 | ratrace | ssh mx-01rr |
| 10:27.28 | quadrathoch2 | ratrace sadly it's not that surprising, as their normal offerings are just consumer hw |
| 10:27.38 | ratrace | oops, wrong window. leme check our ryzens at Hetzner |
| 10:27.40 | mrjpaxton | jim: What do you mean? |
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| 10:28.41 | ratrace | Lope: all Intel NICs on our ryzens at Hetzner |
| 10:29.13 | Lope | ratrace, not this one!!!! |
| 10:29.17 | Lope | it's a realcrap |
| 10:29.22 | ratrace | Lope: if Hetzner's known for one thing, is that they do custom server chassis and components that they extensively test and use only those that give them least amount of trouble |
| 10:29.33 | Lope | I HATE Realtek NICs on Linux. |
| 10:29.39 | ratrace | Lope: if 14 days haven't passed, you can return it, money back guarantee, and ask for another, with Intel NIC |
| 10:29.45 | Lope | And I only run linux on HW. |
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| 10:29.49 | Lope | haha |
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| 10:30.21 | Lope | ratrace, this is /etc/network/interfaces https://pastebin.com/Gqi0VHdr |
| 10:30.22 | mrjpaxton | I am lucky with Realtek Ethernet, it's jsut the Realtek Wi-Fi I have a bigger issue with. I have a hard time getting some of the newer Wireless ad ones working. |
| 10:30.26 | Lope | It should be working :/ |
| 10:30.42 | Lope | The boot journal shows the bridge comes up etc. |
| 10:30.48 | ratrace | Lope: uhhh who set that up? |
| 10:30.49 | mrjpaxton | And Wireless AC has alaways been iffy, too. |
| 10:31.07 | Lope | The journal says everything is fine, shows the SSH is listening with port number etc. |
| 10:31.35 | ratrace | Lope: also, if you're bridging with eth0 ... did you make sure to include net.ifnames=0 in the kernel command line? |
| 10:31.36 | Lope | ratrace, I set that up. for now I've commented out everything else, just trying to get it accessible |
| 10:31.42 | mrjpaxton | Ew, that netmask though. |
| 10:31.50 | ratrace | Lope: be _very_ careful with bridges at Hetzner |
| 10:32.04 | Lope | ratrace, well, it's not really called eth0, it's enp blah blah blah |
| 10:32.06 | ratrace | one tiny packet going out with wrong src-ip, you're dun goof'd |
| 10:32.10 | Lope | I just put eth0 for show |
| 10:32.35 | Lope | ratrace, okay cool. Well I've been running bridges on dedicated for years. No issues. |
| 10:32.36 | jim | mrjpaxton, apparantly gdb has had a feature added which looks at the thing you're debugging, and based on its "build id", will import symbols and source (so with this system, there might no longer be a need for compiling with -g (not sure if this is true for all cases) |
| 10:32.56 | ratrace | Lope: also, cosmetics but .... use the CIDR IP notation, don't use netmask |
| 10:33.17 | Lope | ratrace, ah, I didn't know you can CIDR in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 10:33.25 | Lope | I thought it's too oldschool. |
| 10:33.49 | Lope | But I mean, there's nothing wrong with my /etc/network/interfaces. Journal shows the bridge comes up. |
| 10:34.07 | Lope | (as far as I can tell) |
| 10:34.22 | ratrace | Lope: are you looking at this through LARA? |
| 10:34.58 | Lope | ratrace, I dunno what LARA is. I've been editing the files in nano, and then checking the journal after the boot fails to be internet accessible. |
| 10:35.06 | Lope | my initramfs works great :/ |
| 10:35.10 | *** join/#debian lowin (~lowin@unaffiliated/lowin) |
| 10:35.25 | ratrace | it's hetzner's KVM console. you also have an option of vKVM. how are you checking the files then... rebooted into rescue mode, mount, chroot ? |
| 10:35.43 | Lope | ratrace, sometimes the rescue thing, sometimes dropbear |
| 10:36.09 | Lope | dropbear is more convenient, but my initramfs chroot can't update-initramfs -u for some reason /dev/fd/ missing. |
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| 10:36.29 | ratrace | Lope: open a ticket and request KVM. they'll give you connection details. the java applet you can download and exec directly on the command line with javaws, since browser won't support the applet |
| 10:36.32 | Lope | ratrace, I asked for the console thing, but they seemed to ignore my request. |
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| 10:37.05 | ratrace | Lope: they won't ignore it. they'll get back to you as soon as a device becomes available. they have limited supply of them |
| 10:37.15 | Lope | ratrace, I suppose the KVM is the way to go at this point. It's been such a monumental waste of time. With the NIC unexpectedly being dead etc. |
| 10:37.21 | mrjpaxton | jim: Oh, so you're looking for packages that you can debug? There are a lot of "-debug" packages available inthe repos, but not a whole lot. Try looking up "deb-src" and see if you can build in packages with debug symbols. |
| 10:37.27 | ratrace | it's not OVH with OOB IPMI over VPN :) |
| 10:37.33 | mrjpaxton | Because I'm not sure about that! |
| 10:37.36 | Lope | Naturally I debugged all my other shenanigans first, all the layers of shit I'm running. |
| 10:37.51 | Lope | mdadm, luks, zfs, etc. |
| 10:38.10 | ratrace | Lope: make sure you have root pass set, or unpriv user in wheel or with sudo capabilities, or else you won't be able to log in on the KVM console :) |
| 10:38.12 | mrjpaxton | LUKS with ZFS? Interesting.... |
| 10:38.27 | Lope | ratrace, thanks for the reminder :/ |
| 10:38.35 | Lope | (poo emoji) |
| 10:38.47 | Lope | Anyway, I better do useful stuff today, not just bang my head on a server. |
| 10:38.56 | Lope | Thanks for the amazing advice as always ratrace |
| 10:38.58 | ratrace | ZFS atop of LUKS is neat-o. half our prod servers are that. the other half is btrfs atop of LUKS :) |
| 10:39.11 | ratrace | Lope: np |
| 10:39.28 | Lope | next stop, mdadm > bcache > luks > zfs |
| 10:39.28 | mrjpaxton | I am even having a hard time getting AirPrint and AirScan to work with CUPS. So I also have more networking projects at hand. Lmao. |
| 10:39.31 | Lope | haha, just kidding. |
| 10:39.37 | Lope | That would be a good way to troll the ZFS people. |
| 10:39.52 | ratrace | Lope: i'll betja in advance, you've got wrong enp* name . just shove that into net.ifnames=0 and make your life way easier ;) |
| 10:39.55 | mrjpaxton | It's realyl fun to do networking projects... until they become frustrating for us not completely into networking. |
| 10:40.17 | Lope | ratrace, I've quadruple checked the interface names bud! |
| 10:40.23 | ksk | mrjpaxton: draw a picture, it helps :D |
| 10:40.38 | Lope | ratrace, but yes, it seems like eth0 would be better for a remote dedi. Do you do it? |
| 10:41.05 | mrjpaxton | I'll stick to BTRFS with RAID 1 or 10 for my home NAS. :) |
| 10:41.16 | ratrace | Lope: yup. there's always just one NIC, but our ansible scripts bind them to their MACs anway |
| 10:41.21 | ratrace | "you never know" |
| 10:41.37 | ratrace | (OVH servers come with two, for example) |
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| 10:41.58 | jelly | > net.ifnames=0 # funny how predictable iface names make many admin's life unpredictable |
| 10:41.59 | Lope | ratrace, dumb question but are multiple kernel params space delimited? |
| 10:42.09 | ratrace | jelly: word :) |
| 10:42.14 | jelly | yes, space separated |
| 10:42.14 | ratrace | Lope: yes |
| 10:42.55 | mrjpaxton | I think the Atheros drivers rename the interfaces. Yes, there's *those* kind of drivers in Linux. *sigh* |
| 10:43.07 | mrjpaxton | Just let me rename them with udev or whatever. |
| 10:43.10 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: uhhhhh no. drivers don't do that |
| 10:43.41 | Lope | Thanks |
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| 10:44.04 | mrjpaxton | Well okay, they are modules. I know ath9k-htc does that. |
| 10:44.08 | jelly | kernel gets the preferred name from... I honestly don't know where, might be drivers, might be driver type hardcoded, but userspace does re/naming |
| 10:44.19 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: does _what_ exactly? |
| 10:44.52 | ratrace | jelly: kernel always does one name. the "prefered" name and priorities are udev thing |
| 10:45.03 | mrjpaxton | Renames from something like wlan0 or wlp1s0 to wlx(XYZ). |
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| 10:45.07 | ratrace | eg. an eth NIC will always be eth0. then udev renames based on the rules |
| 10:45.15 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: that's udev doing |
| 10:45.19 | mrjpaxton | I don't even know what "wlx" stands for! |
| 10:45.23 | mrjpaxton | Lol. |
| 10:45.50 | jim | mrjpaxton, no, I'm looking to find out if debian has plans to provide a debug server |
| 10:46.19 | jelly | wl is for wireless, x and a mac address thing seems to be appended for hot-plug (say, usb) devices |
| 10:46.20 | *** join/#debian format_c (~format_c@unaffiliated/format-c/x-8927423) |
| 10:46.53 | jelly | I have a usb-c ethernet: enx340a46aa1e77 |
| 10:47.29 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, I have an Armbian device that is hosting my Wi-Fi with hostapd. I'm debating if I should just turn interface renaming off or not. Does it really provide that much more security? |
| 10:47.31 | ratrace | https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.net-naming-scheme.html |
| 10:47.53 | jelly | I struggle to see how it provides security AT ALL |
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| 10:48.01 | mrjpaxton | It's okay, I still have the Wi-Fi and Ethernet bridged as one LAN interface, so I just use the name of the bridge for everything. Lol. |
| 10:48.11 | mrjpaxton | Problem solved. |
| 10:48.14 | jelly | it can provide help with provisioning. Or hinder it |
| 10:49.34 | jelly | I guess it might be ince if you're plugging and unplugging dozens of interfaces during the lifetime of a machine |
| 10:49.43 | ratrace | maybe it's security by obscurity because the haxxors can't .... uh...... predict....... the predictable name in advance :)))) |
| 10:49.57 | jelly | (we don't, give me back eth0 and eth1 any time of day) |
| 10:50.44 | mrjpaxton | I think having predictable names is just to prevent user mistakes, more than anything. Because the computer should know best. :p |
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| 10:51.07 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: nope. the idea behind them is buggy BIOS that MAY rename the devices on random boot |
| 10:51.25 | mrjpaxton | Or buggy UEFI. Lol. |
| 10:51.31 | ratrace | whic, ironically, has been solved forever, by binding the network name to specific NIC |
| 10:51.55 | ratrace | which, ironically, we do on our servers and our NICs are _always_ the predictable eth0 and eth1 :) |
| 10:53.08 | ratrace | so the whole "predictable naming" thing is: a) unpredictable, b) enormous waste of time and code |
| 10:57.09 | mrjpaxton | Oh, something easier than using udev is apparently you can use systemd .link files to rename interfaces, too. |
| 10:57.29 | mrjpaxton | But I guess you would already need to be using networkd. |
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| 10:57.49 | mrjpaxton | I don't remember if it's as easy in interfaces. |
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| 10:58.15 | quadrathoch2 | I would say almost mrjpaxton, but I like networkd |
| 10:58.59 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, just as a challenge I converted a working interfaces to networkd, and it works just like it did before, after fiddling. Lol. It's fun. |
| 10:59.13 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: you can rename them even with ifupdown |
| 10:59.22 | mrjpaxton | I just use itnerfaces as a testbad at this point, because I'm overly familiar with it. |
| 10:59.27 | mrjpaxton | *testbed |
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| 11:08.08 | jim | for background info on what I mean by debug server, see this link: https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/10/14/introducing-debuginfod-the-elfutils-debuginfo-server/ |
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| 11:12.20 | mrjpaxton | Ah, is this another new-ish RedHat thing that's been going on? |
| 11:13.02 | jim | dunno, I just heard about it 5 mins ago |
| 11:13.17 | jim | or maybe 15 |
| 11:13.26 | mrjpaxton | Just for the record, Debian is very slow to adopt new changes, and is a community/volunteer funded project by SPI. Whereas RedHat and Fedora are corporately sponsored. Don't expect new and shiny from this distro. ;) |
| 11:14.46 | jim | I understand, having run debian for about 20 years... I just figure it might be something that folks in debian might want to look into |
| 11:15.35 | jim | maybe if people find out, we get a server around the time current sid gets released stable |
| 11:15.52 | jim | (aka 2 releases from now) |
| 11:16.14 | mrjpaxton | Okay, well you are outclassing me right now, since I've only used GNU/Linux for about 10 years since switching off from Windows 7. Haha. |
| 11:17.18 | jim | yeah, I can tell stories about watching debian upgrade itself from libc4 to libc5, and at the same time move from a.out to elf |
| 11:17.42 | jim | (this would be before apt-get :) |
| 11:18.10 | mrjpaxton | Oh actually. Yes. I'm glad that you brought that up, becuase that was pretty painful. AND I was playign with Testing at the time, so even more pain. I would say it was just as bad, if not worse, than the upgradefrom GRUB 1 to GRUB 2. |
| 11:18.58 | jim | the upgrade went very smoothly, which impressed me |
| 11:19.31 | jim | I liked grub1 though, it had that grub shell |
| 11:19.56 | mrjpaxton | I weep for my days when I was on Unstable all the time. It turns out Ubuntu was really all I wanted in a desktop. Debian makes a good stable distro, but they really suck at doing rolling-release. I guess I just learn the hard way. |
| 11:20.31 | quadrathoch2 | mrjpaxton so what is rolling in ubuntu Oo |
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| 11:20.47 | mrjpaxton | But I really do not like how bloated Ubuntu feels compared to Debian. I am thinking of switching my desktops back to it. |
| 11:21.21 | mrjpaxton | I'd miss how up to date the software is, though.... Hmmm.... |
| 11:21.29 | rk4 | ubuntu is going down a little weird path, packages being a mix of snap and deb |
| 11:21.35 | mrjpaxton | But yeah, for servers... Debian all the way. |
| 11:22.10 | mrjpaxton | rk4: I know. It sucks. Chromium is no longer in the repos anymore. It's only available as a snap. |
| 11:22.23 | jim | that was at the beginning of my linux use... I went from sls, to slackware (which I destroyed by trying to upgrade libc), and looking for a dist that could upgrade itself, so trying redhat, it could not, then I went to a newish project called debian, which did |
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| 11:23.56 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, I don't think I will ever use Debian Unstable/Testing again. I'd rather just use stable with backports/Flatpak or even install new software with containers or a chroot if I have to. |
| 11:24.16 | mrjpaxton | I just want a stable base system, but with some up to date packages, if I need them (for a desktop). |
| 11:24.21 | rk4 | debian definitely nailed the package management side of distroing, took a very long time for redhat to almost catchup [up2date, yum, dnf[?], but dnf is a slow user experience] |
| 11:24.39 | mrjpaxton | APT will forever be king for me. :) |
| 11:25.16 | jim | much later, maybe 3 years ago, I compared a ubuntu install to a debian install... and for speeds (which is pretty much the only thing I could do), I found that debian was faster, to download (but I cheated, got a major university with a debian mirror 15 miles away), to install, and to use (sometimes debian was about twice as fast) BUT! this was not a study that I repeated, and is in no way scientific |
| 11:26.15 | *** join/#debian ax562 (~ax562@unaffiliated/ax562) |
| 11:26.36 | mrjpaxton | Oh yeah, minimal Debian is very much a thing. if you want such a thing as minimal Ubuntu, then you'd have to install Ubuntu Server. They recommend not to even use it as a desktop, but I don't see why not! |
| 11:27.07 | jim | but these were not minimal installs |
| 11:27.31 | jim | in debian's case, I told it to install kde |
| 11:27.50 | mrjpaxton | Oh. Pff... I only use the netinstalls or minimal ISOs. It's just so much easier to install exactly what you want afterwards. |
| 11:28.22 | mrjpaxton | I tried to do the custom live CDs, but figured it was way too much work. I'd rather just install to a USB drive with persistancy... or something. |
| 11:28.49 | jim | for the debian install, I used a netinstall, but when it got to the tasksel, I had it install kde, ssh server, standard tools |
| 11:29.09 | *** join/#debian \\Mr_C\\ (~mrc@cpe-75-187-191-230.neo.res.rr.com) |
| 11:29.19 | jim | so maybe that's not comparable to ubuntu |
| 11:30.10 | jim | speed-of-install-wise anyway |
| 11:30.44 | Lope | ratrace, is it normal to get an invalid certificate warning when connecting to the console? |
| 11:31.34 | jim | mrjpaxton, debian now has a "live build" project, that allows you to build live images with whatever you want in them |
| 11:31.59 | ratrace | Lope: y, its self signed |
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| 11:32.20 | Lope | ratrace, seems super dodgy to use? |
| 11:32.28 | Lope | ratrace, could be MITM? |
| 11:32.39 | mrjpaxton | jim: Ooh, what about options for persistency, though? I know you can do the same with Ubuntu or TAILS, but I'm not sure about Debian. |
| 11:32.44 | Lope | Do you have any mitigations for the risk? |
| 11:32.56 | ratrace | Lope: none, unfortunately that's how their KVM is set up |
| 11:33.16 | Lope | haha, so u just login and pray? |
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| 11:34.02 | ratrace | Lope: unfortunately. you could bind the cert in your browser for future use. I don't know if they offer a CA you could download |
| 11:34.06 | jim | mrjpaxton, well really, the only live image I built so far, has borg backup, network support, I think xfce and gparted |
| 11:34.33 | jim | I made it to have an image to restore from backup |
| 11:34.53 | mrjpaxton | Oh yes. I desperately miss gparted from the default live images. I always think what do I need without an Internet connection, just in case.... |
| 11:35.07 | mrjpaxton | And that's totally one of them. Lol. |
| 11:35.33 | Lope | ratrace, it's this thing: https://www.raritan.com/ |
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| 11:36.12 | mrjpaxton | I've really been liking lxqt a lot. I might try one of those as a live USB sometime. |
| 11:36.58 | ratrace | Lope: which reminds me, if you're paranoid you can get a temporary cloud instance in the same DC and ghetto a socks proxy vpn |
| 11:37.40 | jim | live build has a tutorial, you could run through that, and then build something you might want |
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| 11:38.21 | Lope | ratrace, you mean like tinyproxy or whatever? |
| 11:38.35 | ratrace | Lope: no, ssh socks proxy |
| 11:38.50 | Lope | ok |
| 11:39.00 | jim | and/or... I can try to find my image config files and you can try that, possibly modifying to lxqt instead |
| 11:39.38 | mrjpaxton | I remmeber the good old days of using Parted Magic before they turned into payware. Lmao |
| 11:40.07 | jim | I think someone I knew bought one |
| 11:40.43 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, it used to be completely free. |
| 11:41.24 | ratrace | omg paying for someone's work! what an atrocious thought! |
| 11:41.31 | jim | now you can use gparted, which is still free |
| 11:42.06 | mrjpaxton | Or parted. ;) |
| 11:42.15 | jim | right |
| 11:42.54 | jim | I couldn't get things right with parted, (but I could before with fdisk) |
| 11:43.32 | mrjpaxton | Typically, you want to use parted together with fdisk/gdisk |
| 11:43.58 | jim | that could have made sense when I was doing it :) |
| 11:44.49 | jim | by luck, a good partition table was backed up near the end of the drive |
| 11:45.39 | mrjpaxton | I think parted helps with the partition table and creation, where fdisk/gdisk does the layout more. They do seem to have options that clash, but yeah.... It is interesting. |
| 11:45.57 | mrjpaxton | And then you'd use "mkfs" to create the actual filesystems for those partitions. |
| 11:46.11 | mrjpaxton | Learning how to do all of that on the CLI is a useful skill, but time consuming. Lol. |
| 11:46.33 | ratrace | parted can create, layout, remove, rename and set flags on partitions just fine |
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| 11:46.45 | ratrace | gdisk might have more auxiliary options |
| 11:46.49 | jim | yeah, I basically screwed up the drive, until I found that partition table backup |
| 11:46.51 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, so why the need for parted AND fdisk/gdisk then??? |
| 11:47.02 | mrjpaxton | It's just a little weird. |
| 11:47.04 | ratrace | I don't know, I never need them both. you said there's need. |
| 11:47.05 | EdePopede | TMTOWTDI |
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| 11:47.27 | EdePopede | in the old days i used fdformat/fdisk, now gdisk with EFI being a thing |
| 11:47.53 | jim | EdePopede, you mean... you partitioned a floppy too?! |
| 11:48.24 | mrjpaxton | I've had the blessing of never using fdformat, lol. No thanks. |
| 11:48.24 | EdePopede | fdformat may have been enough, only the last one was in the last century i guess |
| 11:48.37 | mrjpaxton | Unless you mean the DOS program. |
| 11:48.46 | mrjpaxton | I might have used that once in DOS. |
| 11:48.55 | mrjpaxton | Can't remember. |
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| 11:49.09 | EdePopede | that one too, yes. only it's called FORMAT.COM only (FORMAT /mbr, remember?) |
| 11:49.29 | mrjpaxton | Oh yeah, lol. |
| 11:49.31 | Lope | ratrace, I've opened the HTML KVM thing in firefox, it showed a small window, but when I tried to open it up, it failed every time. |
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| 11:49.42 | Lope | ratrace, chromium opens it, but it's just a blank page. |
| 11:49.53 | mrjpaxton | FAT16 will rule the world once again. :) |
| 11:49.57 | ratrace | Lope: there's a java applet you can download and run with icedtea |
| 11:50.55 | EdePopede | i think there were also some issues with sfdisk/cfdisk or what they were called, not sure of fdisk used to do everything i wanted, but i stayes away from the others. |
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| 11:52.05 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, I don't like frontends to basic utilities that work fine. For example, htop for top, or aptitude for apt. The regular ones can work and be configued close enough just fine! |
| 11:52.33 | mrjpaxton | So obviously not a fan of cfdisk. |
| 11:52.34 | ratrace | htop is not a frontend for top tho |
| 11:52.41 | ratrace | and it has a ton of features that top doesn't |
| 11:52.52 | EdePopede | htop is nice, it lets me do things with a few keypresses. or i just didn't find top's interactive mode yes. only it messes up process names sometimes. |
| 11:53.08 | jim | I think aptitude (and apt) used libapt, rather than apt-get |
| 11:53.08 | mrjpaxton | I do agree, but you are talking to a hardcore top user here. :p |
| 11:53.27 | EdePopede | can top give you info on a particular process? |
| 11:53.29 | mrjpaxton | I want my processes to ALWAYS BE ACCURATE. |
| 11:53.33 | mrjpaxton | Yes, please. |
| 11:53.42 | mrjpaxton | Any bug in htop is no problem for me. Lol. |
| 11:53.44 | ratrace | and htop info isn't accurate? |
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| 11:54.05 | mrjpaxton | I'm just being silly now. I don't hate on htop users. |
| 11:54.17 | mrjpaxton | I just don't need it. |
| 11:54.18 | EdePopede | or sort it / switch forest on and off while it runs? |
| 11:55.00 | mrjpaxton | I'm just waiting for someone who's like, bruh just use "watch ps aux" |
| 11:55.32 | ratrace | htop > top > ps in context of features, but it's purely a preference which one you like |
| 11:55.32 | EdePopede | right now i have a process (sd-pam) which is /lib/systemd/systemd. not sure if it's meant to be like this, got the impression in the past that it happens around upgrades when the original file disappears with the old package. |
| 11:55.58 | ratrace | and real admins grep the procfs :) |
| 11:56.08 | mrjpaxton | "top" is three letters, btw. Not 4. :) |
| 11:56.19 | EdePopede | accidentally used top recently (instead of ps, happens *shrug*). it cuts off process names, couldn't find a switch to turn this off? |
| 11:56.36 | ratrace | (real-er admins awk th eprocfs and real-er-er admins just launch htop in their emacs OS :) ) |
| 11:57.18 | mrjpaxton | EdePopede: Could be the terminal emulator/TTY? |
| 11:57.40 | oxek | I still need to learn the proper flags to pgrep so that it shows what I want |
| 11:58.01 | mrjpaxton | I also have tree mode enabled, I use kitty (terminal) and I've never had it cut off. |
| 11:58.08 | mrjpaxton | So I dunno. |
| 11:58.33 | EdePopede | and right now i also have the hierarchy SCREEN -R > SCREEN -R > /bin/bash, with the 2nd SCREEN -R actually being bash, as the other direct child processes of SCREEN are. |
| 11:58.35 | jim | if you like python, you might appreciate xonsh |
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| 11:59.38 | mrjpaxton | Oh, speaking of python... export PYTHONDONTWRITEBYTECODE=x and export PYTHONSTARTUP=~/.pythonrc |
| 11:59.45 | mrjpaxton | You'll thank me later. |
| 11:59.59 | EdePopede | mrjpaxton: nope, they don't end at the same column. besides that my maximized xterm is 212 chars wide, it's mostly firefox and xfce-panel stuff reaching its right border in htop. |
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| 12:00.32 | EdePopede | they are cut to 15 chars and some to another (still fixed) value. which is the next odd thing, why 2 values? |
| 12:02.18 | mrjpaxton | Hmmm.... I know you can adjust the column size with "stty cols <X>", but I don't think it can go above the limit, unless your terminal emulator has, like, a horizontal scroll bar. |
| 12:02.34 | EdePopede | as an example (normal mode) > panel-13-xfce4- |
| 12:02.52 | mrjpaxton | Have you tried top in a TTY? |
| 12:02.57 | mrjpaxton | I'm just curious. |
| 12:03.04 | EdePopede | and there's plenty of space next to it |
| 12:03.09 | EdePopede | hm |
| 12:03.15 | jim | you mean a real teletype? |
| 12:03.38 | jim | that would be painful... |
| 12:03.55 | jim | or do you mean in one of the VCs? |
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| 12:04.23 | mrjpaxton | Well you know, a pseudo TTY, with Ctrl-Alt-F1..F7 or so. |
| 12:04.27 | EdePopede | in total 83 chars which makes absolutely no sense |
| 12:04.38 | mrjpaxton | Lol. |
| 12:04.52 | jim | right, those are the VCs, and yes, I must have run top in them once or twice |
| 12:05.00 | EdePopede | how do i connect my VC20 to my Debian PC? |
| 12:05.28 | oxek | quadrathoch2: I tracked down the iptables vs nftables in firewalld issue: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=913664#19 |
| 12:05.29 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/913664 in src:docker.io (forwarded): «docker.io: Does not integrate with firewalld, will be broken when nftables backend is used»; severity: normal; opened: 2018-11-13; last modified: 2020-06-29. |
| 12:05.41 | mrjpaxton | My columns on 1080p is 240, because 12 point font. I don't think I have a process that goes long enough. I also have threaded mode turned off.... Maybe I can test by turning it on. |
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| 12:05.55 | ratrace | oxek: how much time did you spend on that? |
| 12:06.00 | oxek | ratrace: too much |
| 12:06.08 | mrjpaxton | EdePopede: Magic. :) |
| 12:06.21 | EdePopede | 79 chars in the top line with %Cpu, which *does* make sense |
| 12:06.25 | mrjpaxton | Magic computer dust. |
| 12:07.09 | Lope | ratrace, I've got openjdk 11 |
| 12:07.16 | oxek | ratrace: but I learned a lot. For example, I learned that the situation regarding nftables and iptables is a complete mess that will not be solved for years to come. |
| 12:07.22 | Lope | how can I run the jnlp "with icedtea" |
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| 12:07.49 | Lope | By the sounds of it I already have icedtea. |
| 12:08.00 | EdePopede | i have 9px/char and losing 12px at the border |
| 12:08.15 | ksk | Lope: "javaws /path/to/some.jnlp" |
| 12:08.33 | mrjpaxton | oxek: Yeah, I tend to stick with pure nftables without firewalld. Probably because I'm crazy, but... it seems to work better. Lol. |
| 12:08.55 | Lope | ksk, ah yes I remember. |
| 12:08.57 | ksk | Lope: might be you need to install said tool first, but its kind of bundled to icedtea, iirc. |
| 12:09.06 | Lope | ksk, I don't have javaws, only java openjdk |
| 12:09.34 | ratrace | Lope: no javaws after installing icedtea-netx? |
| 12:09.36 | Lope | I see apt pkg icedtea-netx |
| 12:09.40 | Lope | ratrace, thanks! |
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| 12:09.45 | quadrathoch2 | oxek oO buster is defaulting to nftables, so let me read it thouroughly |
| 12:10.01 | oxek | mrjpaxton: but do you actually really have pure nftables, or is it still going through all sorts of compatibility layers and shims pretending to be iptables? |
| 12:10.13 | ratrace | you mean.... iptables in buster use the nftables backed by default, unless you install iptables-legacy |
| 12:10.15 | mrjpaxton | Yes, and thank God. After learning to use nftables for a week, I am very much a fan of it. |
| 12:10.22 | ratrace | *backend |
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| 12:10.42 | mrjpaxton | oxek: Nope! I have iptables completely uninstalled from my system now. :p |
| 12:10.48 | mrjpaxton | Just nftables. |
| 12:11.40 | jim | quadrathoch2, maybe in later kernels, they took iptables out, and replaced it with a compatibility layer, that still lets you write iptables rules, but what the compatibility layer produces, is nftables rules |
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| 12:12.09 | ratrace | WHAT |
| 12:12.26 | ratrace | are you talking about userland, because they took nothing out of the kernel |
| 12:12.28 | ratrace | "they" |
| 12:13.17 | mrjpaxton | Hmm... I mean... but... you could always just use iptables-translate. |
| 12:13.25 | mrjpaxton | Did they really need to do that? |
| 12:14.03 | jim | do which? take out iptables? |
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| 12:14.51 | mrjpaxton | You claimed that they use a compatability layer now. So then it's not really iptables being used anymore? |
| 12:15.03 | jim | ratrace, so the iptables modules are still compiled in latter kernel images? |
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| 12:15.32 | ratrace | jim: yes, and you can switch between nft or legacy backends with update-alternatives |
| 12:15.35 | mrjpaxton | Ah, well... netfilter is netfilter. No matter how ya look at it. |
| 12:15.52 | ratrace | jim: for the iptables _userland_ API |
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| 12:16.29 | jim | oh ok, so did they do anything to the kernel itself? |
| 12:16.56 | ratrace | not that I know of |
| 12:17.04 | Lope | ratrace, the app is erroring out, it doesn't like icedtea |
| 12:17.12 | Lope | it says it requires oracle java 1.8 or higher etc |
| 12:17.15 | Lope | ksk ^ |
| 12:17.17 | ratrace | also keep in mind that nft is probably transient feature too, with all sights set on eBPF |
| 12:17.24 | mrjpaxton | Oracle Java? Oof. |
| 12:17.29 | Lope | Is there a way to spoof java? |
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| 12:18.16 | ratrace | Lope: I don't think it needs oracle specifically... I used to use with regular icedtea + openjdk |
| 12:18.33 | ratrace | unless they changed something recently.... haven't used their KVM interface in many months |
| 12:18.33 | mrjpaxton | The only way out is to rewrite Java to a better programming language. :^) |
| 12:18.39 | Lope | ratrace, it immediately errors out :/ |
| 12:20.21 | ksk | Lope: depending on how old that is, you need really old java :/ |
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| 12:21.05 | ratrace | Lope: oh damn, they really do need java 8 ....... what a steaming *** pile.... https://docs.hetzner.com/robot/dedicated-server/maintainance/kvm-console/ |
| 12:21.18 | Lope | ksk, ratrace: docs call for Java 8 |
| 12:21.25 | Lope | Yeah it's terrible. |
| 12:22.13 | ksk | ,v openjdk-8-jre |
| 12:22.14 | judd | Package: openjdk-8-jre on amd64 -- stretch-proposed-updates: 8u242-b08-1~deb9u1; stretch: 8u252-b09-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 8u252-b09-1~deb9u1; sid: 8u275-b01-1 |
| 12:22.18 | ratrace | time to reconsider Hetzner as primary hosting provider now....... without OOB access.... they're useless. |
| 12:22.29 | mrjpaxton | Why is it in sid? LMAO |
| 12:22.46 | mrjpaxton | Sorry, that's kinda funny. |
| 12:23.21 | ksk | ubuntu does also still ship jre-8 O_o |
| 12:23.32 | ratrace | but jre doesn't come with javaws |
| 12:23.46 | ratrace | or..... is there anotehr way to start the jnlp thingy? |
| 12:24.40 | mrjpaxton | I feel like the amount of old shared libraries Java 8 would need would render it uninstallable at this point. If you can chroot or use a Linux container/VM with oldstable, that might be your best chance to install Java 8. |
| 12:24.40 | ksk | icedtea-netx depends on "default-jre", and as I understand it there is a connection between "javaws" and the jre you have installed. |
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| 12:25.19 | ratrace | Lope: Hetzner also has vKVM ... which is basically starting your rootfs inside a VM.... the network won't work from ousside (different IP ranges tehy use iirc) but at least you can check if your config brings out hte NIC with the static IP properly |
| 12:25.21 | ksk | I once was supplied with a Windows XP VM running Java6 ;) |
| 12:25.53 | mrjpaxton | Oh boy. I am planning to do an offline Windows XP machine for old PC games. |
| 12:26.04 | ratrace | ksk: Lope: ah..... also look at nvidia-openjdk-8-jre maybe that'll help |
| 12:26.05 | mrjpaxton | But I also want to use RDP over the LAN. Hmmm.... |
| 12:26.05 | Lope | ratrace, that's not a bad idea! |
| 12:26.23 | Lope | ratrace, I've actually used JRE directly before for this purpose |
| 12:26.27 | Lope | But trying now I get this: Bad installation: JAVAWS_HOME not set: No such file or directory |
| 12:26.38 | Lope | I've set the environment variable, but it doesn't seem to want that. |
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| 12:27.10 | ratrace | dunno.... now I'll be trying thir KVM interface on one of our test servers, and if I find that I can't use LARA with tools in Buster .... it's goodbye Hetzner time. |
| 12:27.13 | mrjpaxton | Not that I dislike Wine so much, but it does have regression issues with old games. Also, Windows XP is nostalgic. :) |
| 12:27.31 | ratrace | as if plain http access to the core of your server wasn't enough lololol....... OVH ain't that bad any more. |
| 12:27.43 | mrjpaxton | Not as nostalgic as Windows 98 or 2000, but still nostalgic enough. |
| 12:27.48 | ratrace | mrjpaxton: why not win10. surely it can run xp things |
| 12:27.56 | mrjpaxton | ratrace: Ew, no. |
| 12:28.01 | ratrace | ew why no |
| 12:28.05 | mrjpaxton | I'm saying for OLD games. |
| 12:28.25 | ratrace | you'd be surprised at the compatibility maze win10 _has_ to support |
| 12:29.03 | mrjpaxton | So I'm trying to figure out if I want to build a Windows XP machine, or just have a VM, and PCI-passthrough an older GPU. But I also want RDP so I can play those games on the go. |
| 12:29.14 | mrjpaxton | Yeah, I'm a wierdo when it comes to tech stuff. Lol. |
| 12:29.33 | ratrace | I pci passthrough nvidia to my gaming win10 VM |
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| 13:13.16 | Lope | ratrace, I got it to boot |
| 13:13.35 | Lope | I as a hailmary I setup the ethernet adapter as a non-bridge with DHCP |
| 13:13.46 | Lope | *cries inside* |
| 13:15.44 | Lope | ratrace, interface name was right btw :p |
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| 13:19.46 | Lope | ratrace, do you think it's good to enable allow-hotplug on a server that's in a DC? |
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| 13:20.07 | Lope | Incase somebody bumps the cable or the switch gets power cycled? |
| 13:21.33 | ratrace | Lope: nope ... wait.... you had auto or allow-hotplug on brx7? |
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| 13:22.37 | Lope | ratrace, no, I used it as part of my hail-mary, but then later removed it, rebooted and DHCP worked without it. |
| 13:22.53 | Lope | Now I've rebooted, trying just a static IPv4, no bridge. |
| 13:24.03 | ratrace | Lope: and it has to be auto, not allow-hotplug |
| 13:24.13 | Lope | ratrace, it works with a static IP as well (no bridge) |
| 13:24.25 | Lope | No, I've removed hotplug from the last 2 tests. |
| 13:24.38 | Lope | hotplug is irrelevant for this thing working. |
| 13:24.53 | Lope | Basically for some reason, it could not connect as a bridge. |
| 13:25.15 | Lope | It doesn't technically matter for this server... cos it has a single ipv4 |
| 13:25.21 | Lope | but I generally just always use a bridge |
| 13:25.32 | Lope | cos then if I want to attach a VM to it, with it's own IP, I just attach. |
| 13:25.35 | Lope | No BS. |
| 13:25.46 | Lope | But this fuckin thing doesn't work with the NIC in a bridge. |
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| 13:28.40 | Lope | I wonder if I should try removing r8168-dkms |
| 13:28.56 | ratrace | Lope: "a virtual MAC address needs to be requested for each IP address via the Hetzner Robot and assigned to the guest network card." :: https://docs.hetzner.com/robot/dedicated-server/network/net-config-debian/ |
| 13:29.01 | Lope | Going to give it a shot. Might regret it, lol. |
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| 13:29.04 | ratrace | section a the bottom, "Bridged" |
| 13:29.47 | ratrace | hetzner has some funny kind of routing, iirc, so this wouldn't surprise me |
| 13:31.37 | Lope | ratrace, interesting |
| 13:32.00 | ratrace | makes sense, they do MAC based routing |
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| 13:32.23 | ratrace | though doesn't explain why your main eth didn't work |
| 13:32.39 | ratrace | or... wait... what's the MAC addrr of a bridge like that? eth's ? |
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| 14:20.09 | freem | Hello. acpid will not daemonize when it receives something on stdin, which is to support systemd. But it seems that asking it to go foreground, with --foreground, makes it assuming stdin is open and have something to read on. Is that normal? |
| 14:20.11 | Lope | ratrace, I'm doing a test to figure out why it didn't work. I'm wondering if debian didn't like that I had tabs (instead of spaces) in my file for all lines from address and down. |
| 14:20.16 | freem | s/normal/intended/ |
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| 14:22.06 | azeem | freem: what's the problem with that? |
| 14:22.10 | Lope | ratrace, okay, it wasn't the tabs. I re-did my bridge config with spaces, and it's not working again. |
| 14:23.38 | freem | azeem: I use runit to run my daemons, and, in a common file sourced everywhere, I 1) redirected stderr to stdout and 2) close stdin. 2) makes acpid closing in loop, with no reason, and that behavior is not explicit |
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| 14:24.08 | freem | so, in my opinion, it is a bug in acpid binary itself, and if not, then it's a bug in manpage. |
| 14:24.27 | azeem | what does that have to do with --foreground? |
| 14:24.29 | freem | but I'm asking to know which kind of bug it is |
| 14:24.33 | freem | well |
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| 14:24.52 | JohnDohh | hi all! |
| 14:25.00 | svn | hi JohnDohh |
| 14:25.19 | freem | in a script, do: "exec 0<-& #close stdin; exec acpid --foreground" and acpid will simply close immediately after starting |
| 14:25.39 | freem | azeem: ^ which I believe is not what should be intended. |
| 14:25.46 | freem | hi JohnDohh |
| 14:25.58 | freem | but if it is intended, well, ok then, I'll workaround. |
| 14:26.25 | freem | if not, I'll file a bug, so that it can be fixed. Maybe I'll write a patch to attach, too |
| 14:26.36 | azeem | --foreground is intended to be run in the foreground |
| 14:26.39 | freem | yes |
| 14:26.50 | azeem | I'm not sure why you expect certain behaviour if you run it from runit or in scripts |
| 14:26.55 | freem | but when it does that, it tries to read stdin, and if stdin is closed, it exits |
| 14:27.10 | freem | which is not something one should expect |
| 14:27.37 | freem | for example, running busybox's acpid daemon the same way poses no problem |
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| 14:27.55 | azeem | I'd say stdin being open might be considered (one) definition of "foreground"? |
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| 14:28.06 | azeem | but anyway, let's not split hairs |
| 14:28.42 | freem | no, foreground does not imply stdin to be opened, it only implies not double forkking |
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| 14:29.02 | freem | acpid is the 1st daemon I notice doing that assumption |
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| 14:31.24 | JohnDohh | i got a question regarding partman and preseeding |
| 14:31.32 | *** part/#debian svn (user@unaffiliated/svn) |
| 14:31.36 | JohnDohh | is it possible with partman to format a drive without partition (using whole disk) ? |
| 14:31.48 | Hash | I am using debian sid on a test machine. I have discovered something odd. minimal debian xorg setup, xmonad/xmobar + terminal. I try to start a tray program called 'trayer' like so: |
| 14:31.53 | Hash | trayer --edge top --align right --widthtype pixel --width 80 --SetDockType true --SetPartialStrut true --transparent true --alpha 20 --tint 0x000000 --expand true --heighttype pixel --height 16 |
| 14:32.10 | Hash | It shows up in the top right corner as a black bar, but no icons are displayed on it. |
| 14:32.20 | Hash | I'm trying to determine if this is/might be a bu |
| 14:32.28 | Hash | I've not seen such behavior reported in bug reports yet |
| 14:32.36 | ratrace | Lope: try vKVM and see if the ifaces get up and set up ip addrs, and then check if the MAC is correct on the bridge |
| 14:32.54 | ratrace | Lope: it has to be eth's |
| 14:32.56 | *** join/#debian hanasaki (~hanasaki@pool-71-179-12-157.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) |
| 14:33.14 | *** join/#debian Haudegen (~quassel@91.114.49.10) |
| 14:33.26 | Hash | I have run redshift-gtk (which goes into the systray in other desktop env. that I've seen) to test the system tray |
| 14:33.30 | ratrace | Lope: the vKVM works through web javascript thingy, no need for java |
| 14:33.46 | *** join/#debian bf_ (~bf@92.42.187.74) |
| 14:33.55 | ratrace | Hash: |
| 14:33.58 | ratrace | !debian-next |
| 14:33.58 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 14:34.09 | Hash | Ok |
| 14:34.53 | *** join/#debian Slashman (~Slash@2a01:e0a:278:ed10:d9c:be37:eb1d:1df4) |
| 14:34.56 | Hash | !tell ratrace about tell |
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| 14:35.44 | ratrace | has +g so that wouldn't work :) |
| 14:35.52 | Hash | Ooh, good idea! |
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| 14:37.49 | yanmaani | How do you find out what's using all the RAM? My RAM and swap is full, but nothing uses much memory according to top/htop. |
| 14:38.00 | *** join/#debian m4rley (~m4rley@207.148.96.120) |
| 14:38.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1226] by debhelper |
| 14:38.14 | ratrace | yanmaani: https://www.linuxatemyram.com/ |
| 14:38.17 | yanmaani | /tmp/ uses 200mb for example, but isn't listed in htop. |
| 14:38.26 | jelly | yanmaani, what does "free" say |
| 14:38.28 | yanmaani | ratrace: no, this causes actual problems; I can't allocate memory |
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| 14:38.32 | azeem | yanmaani: how much is used by the buffers/page cache? |
| 14:38.36 | ratrace | yanmaani: oh _and_ swap .... I see |
| 14:38.40 | Hash | sudo ps auxf | sort -nr -k 4 |
| 14:38.51 | Hash | perhaps |
| 14:39.00 | jelly | Hash, what does sudo do there? |
| 14:39.06 | yanmaani | azeem: tot 3.8g used 3.3g buff/cache 332mi |
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| 14:39.22 | Hash | jelly: probably habit |
| 14:39.36 | yanmaani | Hash: this just gives me the primary application consumers |
| 14:39.37 | ratrace | jelly: shows processes on systems with hidepid=1 |
| 14:39.41 | ratrace | :) |
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| 14:39.52 | yanmaani | I'm using zram. What I'm thinking is that there's been some loop somewhere. |
| 14:39.52 | jelly | ratrace, I didn't ask you. |
| 14:40.09 | ratrace | but maybe Hash has nonzero hidepid :) |
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| 14:40.17 | yanmaani | 1gb of stuff gets swapped into zram. Then 1gb of zram gets swapped into zram, again. And so on. |
| 14:40.29 | Hash | yanmaani: Are you using it to have a ram block device or using it for compressed swap? |
| 14:40.39 | yanmaani | Hash: compressed swap |
| 14:41.14 | Hash | yanmaani: I recommend ZSWAP instead as zram meanages paging different and has much higher chance of stale pages left and going to disk |
| 14:41.23 | Hash | I read something about that, hang on |
| 14:41.38 | ratrace | yanmaani: do you actually have on-disk backing storage for swap? |
| 14:42.14 | Hash | It was someoen in #kernel... I forgot the link now. |
| 14:42.36 | ratrace | Hash: I'd love to read it because I use zswap too, and I'm being recommended to switch to zram whenever I mention zswap |
| 14:42.48 | slop | Hi all, I am getting back into Debian - havent used linux as my daily driver since like 2012. Hope this finds you doing well |
| 14:43.27 | BCMM | slop: hi |
| 14:44.42 | Hash | zram: Once a page is stored in zram it will remain there until paged in or invalidated. The first pages to be paged out will be the oldest pages (LRU list), these are 'cold' pages that are infrequently access. As the system continues to swap it will move on to pages that are warmer (more frequently accessed), these may not be able to be stored because of the swap slots consumed by the cold pages. |
| 14:44.56 | Hash | What zram can not do (compcache had the option to configure a block backing device) is to evict pages out to physical disk. Ideally you want to age data out of the in-kernel compressed swap space out to disk so that you can use kernel memory for caching warm swap pages or free it for more productive use. |
| 14:45.03 | jelly | yanmaani, bastebin the output of: find /proc -maxdepth 2 -path "/proc/[0-9]*/status" -readable -exec awk -v FS=":" '{process[$1]=$2;sub(/^[ \t]+/,"",process[$1]);} END {if(process["VmSwap"] && process["VmSwap"] != "0 kB") printf "%10s %-30s %20s\n",process["VmSwap"],process["Pid"],process["Name"]}' '{}' \; |sort -k1,1n |
| 14:46.02 | Hash | zswap: In-kernel cache is compressed, the compression algorithm is pluggable using the CryptoAPI and the storage for pages is dynamically allocated. Older pages can be evicted to disk making this a sort of write-behind cache. |
| 14:46.06 | jelly | Hash, so zram backend is actual RAM. That's kind of expected from the name |
| 14:46.15 | Hash | Needs a physical swap device (or swapfile). |
| 14:46.15 | ratrace | Hash: now that's weird, because zram _can_ evict to disk |
| 14:46.25 | Hash | Hmm |
| 14:46.27 | jelly | and zswap does less compression, IIRC |
| 14:46.39 | jelly | I get 2.5:1 with swap on zram |
| 14:46.48 | Hash | Ditto |
| 14:47.17 | Hash | I just build a new 5800x cpu 64gb ram thingy |
| 14:47.33 | Hash | Not expecting to use much swap at all for a while. |
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| 14:48.05 | Hash | That zram + chromium addon called "auto tab discard" is good fix for low mem systems |
| 14:48.05 | ratrace | Hash: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/blockdev/zram.html#optional-feature is this not it? |
| 14:48.25 | ratrace | zram_writeback and backing_dev setting? |
| 14:48.34 | Hash | Interesting |
| 14:48.42 | Hash | I am learning of this just now |
| 14:49.38 | ratrace | and debian does build the kernel with CONFIG_ZRAM_WRITEBACK=y, so that should be possible |
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| 14:51.17 | ratrace | so now I wonder, whether having swap on zram suffices to satisfy THIS little problem of kernel's: https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/NoSwapConsequence |
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| 14:53.09 | jelly | it's not just one problem, there are dozens of problems with the kernel doing bad under page/memory pressure without swap |
| 14:53.39 | ratrace | right, so I'm guessing an on-disk backing storage is a _must_ even with swap on zram |
| 14:54.30 | koollman | ratrace: well, with zram, it has swap |
| 14:54.33 | ratrace | personally, the whole idea of compressing it _without_ paging out is dumb. the whole idea is to free RAM of unused pages. compressing them only half-asses that job. if you're lucky to get half (50%) compressratio |
| 14:54.37 | jelly | the idea is to avoid certain classes of bugs, not to avoid buying enough RAM |
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| 14:55.16 | jelly | and again. I'm seeing compression ratios of 2:1 to 3:1, that's better than 50% |
| 14:55.52 | jelly | ~ 2.5:1 is typical for my desktops |
| 14:55.52 | apt | jelly: okay |
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| 14:56.17 | Hash | What's your zram setup? |
| 14:56.21 | jelly | 12GB of zram swap on a 8GB RAM machine |
| 14:56.22 | koollman | an other idea is having decent latency when paging in (or out, in some cases). And not using permanent storage of course |
| 14:56.24 | Hash | and how much total ram |
| 14:56.24 | ratrace | so slghtly above 50% |
| 14:56.37 | Hash | I have about the same exp. 12 on 8 |
| 14:57.02 | jelly | and half to n-1 zram devices as there are cores (without HT) |
| 14:57.02 | Hash | I have 8GB, I use 2x 512mb |
| 14:57.28 | jelly | 4 cores? 3 zram devices, 4 GiB each |
| 14:58.19 | jelly | zram uses single-threaded compression, so three separate swap devices makes it even out the load across available cpu cores |
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| 14:59.04 | jelly | that made leaky chrome work for weeks instead of days |
| 14:59.14 | Hash | https://bpa.st/WCDQ her's mine |
| 14:59.47 | jelly | (also, I've already killed an SSD swapping on it ;-) |
| 15:00.08 | Hash | I swap to a 10year old WD black, still 100% healthy in smart |
| 15:00.09 | ratrace | what, 10 years ago? |
| 15:00.17 | koollman | I don't think zram is single-threaded anymore |
| 15:00.17 | ratrace | jelly: ^^ |
| 15:00.37 | jelly | let me see how old the replacement is |
| 15:00.45 | Hash | Regardless of the value passed to this attribute, ZRAM will always allocate multiple compression streams - one per online CPU - thus allowing several concurrent compression operations. The number of allocated compression streams goes down when some of the CPUs become offline. There is no single-compression-stream mode anymore, unless you are running a UP system or have only 1 CPU online. |
| 15:01.04 | koollman | zramctl shows a number of streams used, by defaut equal to output of nproc I think |
| 15:01.17 | koollman | so you don't need separate devices anymore |
| 15:01.55 | jelly | Power on time: 2757 days, 17 hours |
| 15:01.56 | ratrace | jelly: first gen SLC/MLC SSDs were garbage. but if you bought an ssd int he past few years, unless you bought some super cheap semi-anonymous carp, there's fat chance in hell you can kill it with swapping alone, unless you had multi MB/s swapstorms 24 hours a day, for many months. |
| 15:01.58 | Hash | I use 4 since I only have 4 cpu in my script |
| 15:02.17 | jelly | ratrace, Vertex 2 was second gen. |
| 15:02.19 | oxek | !sources.list |
| 15:02.19 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main", and optionally "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <buster/updates> <buster-updates> and "man sources.list". |
| 15:02.32 | ratrace | jelly: so, one of them oldie snowflakes :) |
| 15:02.43 | Hash | oxek: you can also /msg dpkg !sources.list |
| 15:03.01 | jelly | ratrace, they didn't even track GB Written in smart, then. The replacement Vertex 3 does. |
| 15:03.04 | oxek | Hash: I have a related question to that: |
| 15:03.19 | Hash | oxek: sorry, for /msg, don't use ! |
| 15:03.29 | jelly | also I bought more RAM and learned about zram+swap. |
| 15:03.50 | ratrace | jelly: so you too would recommend zram'd swap, instead of zswap? |
| 15:03.58 | oxek | is the line supposed to be 'deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main' or 'deb http://deb.debian.org/debian buster main'? Note the lack of trailing slash in debian/ |
| 15:04.14 | oxek | the website https://deb.debian.org/ has it without the trailing slash |
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| 15:04.24 | jelly | ratrace, last time I investigated, zswap had predictable latencies; zram had much better compression |
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| 15:04.34 | Hash | oxek: / |
| 15:04.56 | jelly | fb made zswap to use on servers IIRC |
| 15:05.04 | oxek | Hash: can you please explain the reasoning for it? I'd like to learn the difference. |
| 15:05.17 | ratrace | jelly: I guess zswap is better for me then. I have gobs of RAM and swap is there only to appease the kernel |
| 15:05.20 | Hash | oxek: it's just convention. |
| 15:05.32 | Hash | oxek: you can leave it off |
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| 15:05.49 | jelly | ratrace, if you just need 64MB swap to try and work around page reclamation bugs, probably, yeah |
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| 15:06.13 | ratrace | jelly: yeah it barely gets used more than few hundred MB |
| 15:06.13 | Hash | oxek: / indicates child directory |
| 15:06.26 | Hash | oxek: path heirarchy |
| 15:06.38 | ratrace | jelly: and on the servers, it's mostly unused at all, with few dozen MB when ZFS is too slow to release ARC and I have load peaks |
| 15:06.41 | jelly | ratrace, fun thing: kubernetes developers think kernel doesn't have bugs. They disable and actively check for swap being disabled. |
| 15:06.58 | ratrace | heh |
| 15:07.03 | jelly | predictably, k8s nodes hang BADLY under pressure |
| 15:07.26 | ratrace | jelly: and nobody cares because you're "supposed" to have many of them, failovers, serverfarms to migrate between! |
| 15:07.33 | oxek | Hash: thanks |
| 15:08.04 | jelly | they have fugly workarounds like userspace helpers doing "earlyoom"... that of course gets stuck like all the other userspace |
| 15:08.18 | pasiz | is out of memory situation kernel bug? |
| 15:08.30 | ratrace | jelly: so that's why lenny invented systemd-oomd :) |
| 15:08.44 | ksk | jelly: facebook begs to differ about that assessment of yours :P |
| 15:09.04 | ratrace | pasiz: no, problably sysamind's bug in the poor provisioning domain |
| 15:09.10 | ratrace | *sysadmin's |
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| 15:09.27 | jelly | ksk, I might be misremembering some bits |
| 15:09.52 | ratrace | ksk: facebook solves nearly ALL server/kernel/systemd/program bugs/issues by rebooting the machines |
| 15:10.00 | ratrace | they literally said so in their talks more than once. |
| 15:10.42 | jelly | that's often the fastest thing to do |
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| 15:10.49 | ratrace | so I wouldn't care much about what fecesbook thinks, their workload profiles are insane and their own. |
| 15:11.06 | Lope | ratrace, oh!!! I assumed the bridge would assume the NIC's mac addr!?!? |
| 15:11.13 | ratrace | jelly: yes and with redundancy they've set up, nobody cares when that happens |
| 15:11.13 | Lope | Since there's only one NIC in the bridge? |
| 15:11.27 | Lope | ratrace, that must have been my problem the entire time!? |
| 15:11.28 | ratrace | Lope: well, it should |
| 15:11.40 | ratrace | Lope: maybe? Hetzner does mac-based routing |
| 15:12.26 | Lope | ratrace, I've got another bullseye system, the bridge is a different MAC to the underlying (one and only) interface inside it. |
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| 15:13.52 | Lope | I've got another hetzner server (with an intel NIC) that has a bridge, doesn't do anything special with MAC's and it's been fine for ages, never had a problem. |
| 15:14.16 | ratrace | Lope: all my bridges on Buster share the sae MAC with the eth in it.... but on Hetzner at least, that's a must as it's the NIC's MAC they use to forwar packets to you AND from you |
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| 15:15.10 | ratrace | Lope: I don't set up MACs any special eithre, they're automatically like that |
| 15:15.19 | koollman | Lope: was the bridge created with another interface first ? |
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| 15:16.29 | Lope | koollman, no, only one NIC on the server. |
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| 15:17.06 | Lope | ratrace, holy shitballs! |
| 15:17.19 | Lope | I'm looking at my debian buster system, the bridge has the same mac as the NIC inside it. |
| 15:17.26 | Lope | On bullseye, the MAC is different!?! |
| 15:17.31 | ratrace | YouDontSayNicCageMeme.jpg |
| 15:17.37 | Lope | That's the effing problem. |
| 15:17.54 | Lope | What the _Monumental_ FFFFFFF |
| 15:18.03 | Lope | I've wasted untold hours on this :_( |
| 15:18.06 | ksk | jelly: ratrace: ah okay, I did vaquely remember some kind of "oom-killer in userspace" they advocated some time ago |
| 15:18.15 | ratrace | Lope: but does that fix the issue, actually? |
| 15:18.17 | Lope | to find it's come down to the MAC change |
| 15:18.25 | Lope | well, how can I specify the mac on bridge? |
| 15:18.27 | ratrace | ksk: the systemd-oomd that's coming up? |
| 15:18.35 | Lope | in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 15:18.36 | ksk | looks like it: https://github.com/facebookincubator/oomd |
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| 15:18.58 | Lope | hwaddress ether 00:11:22:33:44:55 |
| 15:19.00 | Lope | got it |
| 15:19.41 | Lope | ratrace, it looks like debian's /etc/network/interfaces doesn't care whether you use bridge_ports vs bridge-ports |
| 15:19.51 | Lope | Cos I've got a server with hyphens, and it works lol. |
| 15:20.02 | Lope | But I see the docs call for underscore |
| 15:20.06 | ratrace | I'm actually using networkd on the servers |
| 15:20.08 | Lope | But then pre-up uses hyphen |
| 15:20.25 | Lope | I am so EFFING annoyed. |
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| 15:20.37 | Lope | But oh so relieved to have figured this out |
| 15:20.45 | ratrace | Lope: but has that ACTUALLY solved the issue? |
| 15:20.50 | Lope | I wouldn't have figured it out if you didn't show me the stuff about the bridge |
| 15:20.55 | Lope | gonna test it now lolz |
| 15:20.56 | koollman | the main idea of oom userspace handling is that it is limited by other ways first (cgroups), then once a process is reaching the limits of the cgroup, rather than killing it, something else may be done (like raising the limit a bit and killing it properly) |
| 15:21.12 | ratrace | Lope: it was just my guess based on knowing how hetzner routers packets.... did it actually solve the issue? |
| 15:21.20 | ratrace | *routes |
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| 15:21.30 | Lope | I'm busy implementing the fix bro |
| 15:21.38 | ratrace | heh |
| 15:22.35 | ratrace | koollman: yeah the idea is not that bad, to use cgroups and other variables for a bit more control over usually haphazard kernel oom ... but ... one should not have oom to beign with :) |
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| 15:23.02 | koollman | ratrace: I mostly agree. but the majority seems to disagree :) |
| 15:23.09 | ratrace | overcommitting your resources is not unlike overselling shared hosting. you can cram thousands of users based on a statistic that most of them use virtualy nothing, until that one joker who does, and down goes your server..... |
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| 15:23.56 | ratrace | koollman: that's not majority, that the very same "lets cram thousnds of kates and then sell support" RHEL crowd. |
| 15:23.56 | koollman | in general I prefer using overcommit_memory=2, but tthere are some cases where overcommitting is justified (or preferable, maybe). typically stuff doing large mmap, or large programs that use fork |
| 15:24.41 | koollman | the influential crowd ? whoever defines defaults, and whoever doesn't ask for them to be changed. probably the majority :) |
| 15:25.01 | Lope | ratrace, the fucking bridge works. |
| 15:25.14 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:25.15 | Lope | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! |
| 15:25.25 | jelly | https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom |
| 15:25.33 | Lope | now to remove r8168-dkms |
| 15:25.38 | koollman | like, sure, I don't care if a jvm fails memory allocation, since it can handle it. But redis do really like to avoid overcommit_memory=2, because the persistence model is designed a specific way :) |
| 15:25.43 | jelly | that was apparently the thing I saw on k8s hosts |
| 15:26.23 | koollman | (basically, fork the process then write memory to disk. But the kernel thinks "wait, all that space may be written later, so I need more space to duplicate pages. fork fails) |
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| 15:29.41 | jelly | aren't there versions/options for clone() that promise they're not going to do a lot of changing pages |
| 15:29.50 | koollman | I'm not sure |
| 15:30.04 | koollman | maybe, yes. Not sure how they interact with the overcommit handling |
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| 15:36.21 | Lope | ratrace, haha cry-laughing-emoji... now that I uninstalled r8168-dkms it looks like NIC dies again upon boot. So back to recovery to re-install r8168-dkms |
| 15:36.43 | ratrace | bummer |
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| 15:40.04 | jelly | ,v r8168-dkms |
| 15:40.05 | judd | Package: r8168-dkms on amd64 -- stretch/non-free: 8.043.02-1; buster/non-free: 8.046.00-1; buster-backports/non-free: 8.048.03-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/non-free: 8.048.03-2; sid/non-free: 8.048.03-2 |
| 15:43.55 | ikus060 | I'm reading about etx4 and project quota. How could I check if my system support it ? |
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| 15:49.20 | jelly | ikus060, see if "man ext4" and "man tune2fs" mention "project" and "prjquota" |
| 15:49.42 | jelly | ikus060, userspace seems to have support for it, on Debian 10 |
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| 15:50.09 | jelly | it's not easy to see whether kernel support is there, without trying |
| 15:51.21 | ikus060 | both mention man page make mention of project quota. |
| 15:52.10 | jelly | well then you can make a test filesystem, enable and mount it with relevant options |
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| 15:54.50 | yanmaani | My hostname seems to have changed to "hostname". Is this a known issue? |
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| 15:55.13 | yanmaani | ratrace: no I do not |
| 15:55.30 | ratrace | yanmaani: you should, see the discussion we had since then |
| 15:56.30 | yanmaani | don't have the ability to keep a backing swap device, alas. zram quite considerably improves performance for me. |
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| 15:57.59 | ratrace | yanmaani: it's not about performance but about kernel going belly up in high mem pressure situations with no storage to page out stuff |
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| 16:03.32 | jelly | well it's about both |
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| 16:09.17 | Lope | ratrace, haha so I've finished my epic investigation. I got fucked by 3 things: 1. Realtek, being a PoS r8168-dkms is absolutely required for it to function. 2. MAC Address filtering. 3. Bullseye changing the MAC. |
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| 16:09.47 | Lope | I've also implemented the workarounds ontop of r8168-dkms lol f'ing burgers. |
| 16:09.52 | Lope | So now it's working. |
| 16:10.52 | petn-randall | Lope: Mac randomization is a setting in network-manager, you can also turn it off. |
| 16:11.20 | Lope | petn-randall, thanks. I'm not using network-manager though |
| 16:11.35 | Lope | petn-randall, can MAC randomization be enabled for WiFi adapters? |
| 16:11.43 | petn-randall | Lope: What tool are you using then? |
| 16:12.19 | Lope | petn-randall, etc network interfaces |
| 16:12.36 | petn-randall | Lope: That should not randomize MAC addresses, then. |
| 16:12.58 | Lope | It's on a bridge in bullseye |
| 16:13.00 | petn-randall | Lope: Unless you have something like macchanger installed. |
| 16:13.10 | Lope | nothing weird installed, debootstrapped. |
| 16:13.41 | petn-randall | Lope: Ah, in this case it will pick the MAC address of the first device added to the bridge, which might not be stable. |
| 16:14.27 | Lope | It doesn't do that for me :/ |
| 16:14.37 | Lope | I had to manually tell it to use the NIC's MAC |
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| 16:15.19 | Lope | I've got a buster and a bullseye system. The behavior is different. |
| 16:15.32 | dermoth | Lope, I played with realtech wifi dongles on my rpi lately... I find the new stock driver taht is meant to replace all previous usb drivers works on a cold boot, but has issue on warm boot - I came across a patch in this driver for specific id's that performs a full init even if the dongle is already initialized (or something like that, will have to dig). If cold boot / reinserting dongle fixes it that may be the issue with stock kernel driver. |
| 16:15.33 | dermoth | FWIW... |
| 16:15.40 | Lope | Both using the exact same style of etc network interfaces |
| 16:16.10 | Lope | dermoth, realtek networking FTL |
| 16:16.33 | dermoth | haven't had time to test further, but I'd like to add a module param to allow it on any dongle.. that is of course if your specific adapter is supported (not all of them are yet) |
| 16:16.37 | Lope | dermoth, although sometimes I get confused between realtek and ralink. |
| 16:16.56 | Lope | I'm not sure if I've used realtek wifi or ralink. But one of them I had to disable hardware crypto and then it worked. |
| 16:17.09 | Lope | With the crypto enabled, it transferred data at snails pace. |
| 16:18.01 | Lope | dermoth, when it comes to USB wifi I'm mostly interested in 5ghz AC models |
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| 16:18.26 | Lope | 8812AU seems to be the only USB chipset that's (kindof) available |
| 16:18.37 | Lope | I'm not into 2.4ghz |
| 16:18.52 | Lope | If I can use PCI-E then I go intel. |
| 16:19.01 | dermoth | ok I have various 150/300mpbs 802.1n usb dongles... never bought ac bc drivers were too new back then |
| 16:19.03 | Lope | (for wifi) |
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| 16:19.22 | ratrace | Lope: thanks for the heads up, something to investigate when I test the upgrade to bullseye |
| 16:19.28 | Lope | there's a good github driver for 8812AU |
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| 16:21.20 | Lope | ratrace, If they give you realcrap `apt install r8168-dkms` and put this on your bridge and forever hold your peace: hwaddress ether 00:11:22:33:44:55 \n pre-up /usr/sbin/ethtool -K eth0 tso off |
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| 16:23.10 | dermoth | yeah, the module in was rtl8xxxu - for now I switch to another dongle with stock rtl8192cu driver (for the chipset of the same name)... stable.... the symptoms were no auth after a reboot, but cold boot worked (reinserting the dongle should work too causes a power draw spike that resets the rpi anyway) |
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| 16:23.41 | Lope | dermoth, hehe, fun |
| 16:24.02 | ratrace | Lope: ah, no. if they give me realkrap, I'll be asking for a different server |
| 16:24.48 | dermoth | a while back I also used one on my computer, would fail on occasions. I wrote a network monitor daemon that killed usb power for a second when router became unreachable. different issue though. |
| 16:25.45 | ratrace | my workstation's r8169 WorksFine(tm) tho |
| 16:26.21 | Lope | ratrace, wise hahahaha |
| 16:26.43 | dermoth | So...back to what I came here for :) I'm running two graphical desktops on my home computer (two users... both me so security / separation between both isn't a concern) - but I'm having audio issue on occasions - I don't reboot often too. I feel like I may not have the ideal setup as I've been though many os upgrades. |
| 16:27.01 | ratrace | Lope: btw, pretty sure you can ask for another NIC, if you're not in the mood of changing the whole server. for ~50⬠they'll replace it |
| 16:27.05 | dermoth | is there any doc that describes exactly what audio daemons/setup I should have in a fresh Buster install? |
| 16:27.23 | dermoth | before I install in in a vm and start comparing... |
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| 16:27.37 | Lope | ratrace, I've had problems with realcrap in my laptop, and on my workstation's onboard (4 years ago) and again a month or 2 ago, to the point where I said fuckit and installed another realcrap NIC that's the SAME CHIPSET, but different revision, that works.... LOL. |
| 16:27.54 | BCMM | dermoth: don't think so, and also it will depend on what tasks you selected |
| 16:28.04 | Lope | But I've just tried the new tso disable workaround in my workstation's init scrips. So I'll test my onboard again some time :) |
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| 16:28.11 | BCMM | dermoth: desktop tasks install Pulse, though |
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| 16:28.45 | dermoth | I run pulseaudio - one daemon per user - in the worst cases I have to likk all, unload and reload all audio modules, restart pulseaudio and reapply the proler sink profile |
| 16:28.48 | Lope | ratrace, surely on a ryzen consumer CPU they're using onboard shit? |
| 16:29.03 | Lope | ratrace, I asked them for another NIC, they suggested I do workarounds! |
| 16:29.04 | Lope | hahahaha |
| 16:29.16 | dermoth | I think for my case tey recomment a single system pulde daemon though |
| 16:29.55 | dermoth | BCMM, so on a fresh install I would have a user-spawned pulse daemon correct? |
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| 16:30.05 | dermoth | that's conforting at least :) |
| 16:30.20 | BCMM | after login, yes |
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| 16:32.00 | yanmaani | ratrace: yeah, it totally dies, but won't it do so if it runs out of backing storage too? |
| 16:32.15 | yanmaani | why can't it just start to fail the mallocs above a certain level? |
| 16:32.28 | dermoth | humm I think one of the problematic app accesses the device directly... Citrix Workspace App... great :( |
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| 16:38.59 | hegemoOn | i have two debian, one 10.4 and the second one 10.7 |
| 16:39.20 | hegemoOn | im pretty surprised to see a /sbin/init process along a systemd process on the 10.4 |
| 16:39.25 | hegemoOn | which is not existing on 10.7 |
| 16:39.41 | slop | dermoth, do you have Citrix Workspace working in Debian? |
| 16:40.58 | Voltum | is port 8443 for https also? |
| 16:41.03 | Voltum | i thought 443 is https only |
| 16:41.15 | jelly | hegemoOn, I have this on 10.7: root 1 0 0 2020 ? 00:00:54 /sbin/init |
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| 16:42.04 | jelly | Voltum, 443 is the default, and registered port for https, but nothing stops you to put a https service on any port you like |
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| 16:42.22 | jelly | 443 is merely standard |
| 16:42.37 | Voltum | i see both 443 and 8443 open in my system |
| 16:42.51 | Voltum | ss -tulp doesn't say what 8443 is for, i guess https also |
| 16:42.52 | jelly | by which processes |
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| 16:43.20 | Voltum | jelly, both nginx |
| 16:43.24 | dermoth | slop, yes... as long as you don't try to use Zoom VDI... |
| 16:43.51 | jelly | Voltum, you'll have to look at nginx configuration then |
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| 16:44.38 | dermoth | well tbh my vdi plugins is very old as it has to match the old version I have to use at work, until they upgrade it - I actually use it, but it's barely usable once you know all the quirks and workaround to limit crashes to a minimum |
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| 16:45.41 | dermoth | latest version started crashing sometimes even without zoom plugin loaded, but before that it was pretyt sble. There's also occasional keyboard layout annoyances if you don' use a us layout |
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| 16:46.48 | yanmaani | My hostname seems to have changed to "hostname". Is this a known issue? |
| 16:47.00 | jelly | yanmaani, it's not. |
| 16:47.36 | jelly | yanmaani, when were your /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts files last changed? |
| 16:47.37 | dermoth | slop, fwiw been using it for quite some time, probably ~5 years... before they renamed it from Citrrix Reciver... so with previous Debian Stable versions too |
| 16:48.09 | Voltum | another thing, how can i check which cron service is available on my system? i am using debian 10 buster. |
| 16:48.28 | Voltum | i am aware that cronie, anacron and many others do the same thing, and use crontab |
| 16:48.41 | Voltum | i want to find out which one i have, so i can enable its service also and put things in crontab |
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| 16:50.11 | dermoth | $ dpkg-query -l '*cron*'|grep ^ii |
| 16:50.12 | dermoth | ii anacron 2.3-28 amd64 cron-like program that doesn't go by time |
| 16:50.12 | dermoth | ii cron 3.0pl1-134+deb10u1 amd64 process scheduling daemon |
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| 16:50.58 | Voltum | dermoth, mine says only cron |
| 16:51.08 | dermoth | using Buster, but started with Wheezy |
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| 16:51.09 | Voltum | i thought cron was like a socket |
| 16:51.48 | dermoth | it's a daemon, with various files to start system and user crontabs |
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| 16:52.44 | jhutchins | dermoth: cron was the original scheduling program. cronie and anacron are comparative newcomers. |
| 16:52.50 | yanmaani | jelly: /etc/hostname, a few months ago. /etc/hosts, a few hours ago, when I changed it to add the new hostname so sudo would stop whining. |
| 16:53.07 | dermoth | anacron uses cron to start hourly, dayly, weekly, monthly jobs |
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| 16:54.05 | dermoth | well afaik there's a lot more that just cron and cronie - including many cron variant that are named cron anyway. |
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| 16:55.37 | echelon | hi what version of samba started supporting SMBv2? i'm on debian 7.10 |
| 16:55.45 | echelon | and have samba-common 2:3.6.6-6+deb7u7 |
| 16:55.46 | Voltum | i am not using anacron and still i have cron.hourly daily monthly folders |
| 16:55.54 | Voltum | so this isn't for anacron only it seems. |
| 16:56.21 | dermoth | don't take everything I say for granted! :) |
| 16:56.56 | jelly | yanmaani, and do they match the current hostname? |
| 16:56.58 | dermoth | > Anacron (like "anac(h)ronistic") is a periodic command scheduler. It executes commands at intervals specified in days. |
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| 16:58.59 | dermoth | but my /etc/crontab has entries such as: |
| 16:59.05 | dermoth | 17 ** * *root cd / && run-parts --report /etc/cron.hourly |
| 16:59.06 | dermoth | 25 6* * *roottest -x /usr/sbin/anacron || ( cd / && run-parts --report /etc/cron.daily ) |
| 16:59.14 | Voltum | yeah mine too |
| 16:59.33 | dermoth | so anacrons overides run-parts dor daily and breater intervals apparently |
| 16:59.38 | dermoth | for |
| 16:59.41 | Voltum | i haven't figured if cron and anacron are complementary or replace one another |
| 17:00.23 | Voltum | from what i remember anacron has an extra functionality, that if you miss your scheduled cron job, it tries to run it as soon as possible |
| 17:00.27 | Voltum | instead of skipping it |
| 17:00.28 | yanmaani | jelly: /etc/hostname has the old hostname (that I want). |
| 17:00.28 | dermoth | I think anacron spreads the jobs rather than runinng then all at once...and/or ensures jobs are run after downtime |
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| 17:00.41 | yanmaani | if I open bash, I get the hostname "hostname" |
| 17:01.10 | dermoth | so for hourly it's not very useful (and you can always insert a sleep in your job) |
| 17:02.13 | jelly | yanmaani, you may have accidentally run the command "hostname hostname" |
| 17:02.59 | yanmaani | jelly: so if I just run hostname <old>, it'll fix itself? |
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| 17:03.15 | jelly | that sets the hostname, yes |
| 17:03.20 | jhutchins | yanmaani: What's in /etc/hostname |
| 17:03.33 | yanmaani | jhutchins: the old hostname (that I want) |
| 17:03.38 | jelly | alternatively, reboot after making sure /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts match |
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| 17:03.46 | jelly | !hostname |
| 17:03.46 | dpkg | Use «hostname foo» to set the hostname, $EDITOR /etc/hostname to set it for the next boot (create /etc/hostname if it does not exist) and $EDITOR /etc/hosts to set up local translations for a FQDN. See also 'man 1 hostname', or ask me about <mailname>. http://wiki.debian.org/HowTo/ChangeHostname |
| 17:04.01 | yanmaani | jelly: I just rebooted, and it was after this the issue started. So my hostname was not what it said in /etc/hostname. |
| 17:04.05 | dermoth | actually nowadays anacron also has a systemd timer for hourly... interesting... why I still have the hourly run-parts (regardless of that timer) and why other intervals haven't been implemented with timers too |
| 17:04.10 | yanmaani | So do I have `hostname hostname` in some autostart script |
| 17:04.12 | yanmaani | ? |
| 17:04.15 | jelly | yanmaani, huh, that's unusual |
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| 17:04.23 | dermoth | might need a fresh Buster vm anyway... |
| 17:04.31 | jelly | yanmaani, anything weird in /proc/cmdline ? |
| 17:04.44 | jelly | yanmaani, is this a VPS/VM ? |
| 17:07.26 | dermoth | actually it probably has other times form that timer, sorry - confusing run-parts and anacron |
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| 17:08.40 | dermoth | seems like the timer runs every hour to launch all jobs that haven't run for an hour/day/week/month.... |
| 17:10.14 | slop | dermoth, I had no luck getting Citrix Workspace app working in Debian. Any recommendation on site to use or data? |
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| 17:11.49 | slop | Im thinking its mostly certificate issues |
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| 17:14.51 | dermoth | yes, you have to symlink to the system certs... |
| 17:15.00 | jhutchins | slop: Usually Citrix connects to a corporate server. |
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| 17:15.26 | dermoth | slop, replace cacert with his symlink: |
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| 17:15.33 | dermoth | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:15.37 | yanmaani | jelly: 'BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.19.0-13-amd64 root=/dev/mapper/volgrp-root ro quiet splash pci=nomsi' |
| 17:15.41 | yanmaani | no, bare metal |
| 17:17.04 | dermoth | if that's just it, fine. if oyu need HDX., there's a bug in the installer where the x86_64 version checks if arch is armhf, and fails because it's not the right arch - change the check for x86_64 |
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| 17:18.13 | dermoth | I reported it to Citrix, then they realized I made it to work so they figured the issue was resolved and closed it... go figure |
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| 17:23.30 | dermoth | months later, new version, same bug |
| 17:23.58 | Numero-6 | hi! i want run cmd, in root but with a normal user. I do : su -l ; su - user -c "echo $USER" but that show always i'm root |
| 17:24.29 | jelly | yanmaani, so nothing weird there, that means yes, something in your boot process sets it |
| 17:24.29 | dermoth | Numero-6, try whoami |
| 17:24.46 | jhutchins | Numero-6: Correct. |
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| 17:25.06 | dermoth | with double-quotes, the interpolatiuon is done by your shell which runs as root, before echo runs |
| 17:25.14 | Numero-6 | oh yea whoami show normal user |
| 17:25.19 | dermoth | single quotes may work too, if it's interpreted by a shell |
| 17:25.20 | Numero-6 | Oh ok |
| 17:25.34 | jhutchins | Numero-6: try su - <user> |
| 17:26.01 | jhutchins | If you run a command with su you're still the original user. |
| 17:26.08 | Numero-6 | jhutchins: yea that back in current user |
| 17:28.34 | jelly | yanmaani, perhaps it was set somewhere in systemd settings using hostnamectl ? No idea where those get stored |
| 17:28.40 | Numero-6 | that better to use su - root than su -l ? |
| 17:28.46 | Numero-6 | just a banal question |
| 17:28.55 | jelly | Numero-6, "su -" is enough |
| 17:29.11 | jelly | and the shortest of all those equivalent options |
| 17:29.19 | Numero-6 | yea because in past i used only "su" |
| 17:29.30 | jelly | !buster su |
| 17:29.30 | dpkg | In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). See https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes for details. |
| 17:29.31 | Numero-6 | and now with buster that make probleme with sbin |
| 17:29.52 | Numero-6 | Ok so always su - |
| 17:29.56 | jelly | yes |
| 17:29.59 | Numero-6 | i have write in my brain |
| 17:30.04 | Numero-6 | :D |
| 17:30.26 | jhutchins | su - <user> gives you a shell as <user>, and <user>'s environment. |
| 17:30.38 | Numero-6 | and that more easy you just do su - <user> -c "cmd" |
| 17:30.42 | Numero-6 | yea |
| 17:31.04 | jhutchins | Numero-6: That may not have the results you're after. |
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| 17:31.49 | jhutchins | Numero-6: Although I use that format to run commands as root, so it might work for you. |
| 17:32.02 | Numero-6 | i just no use sudo, so when you have lot of cmd requierd root and other no, you do always switch |
| 17:32.22 | Numero-6 | and i have always a root terminal open for check and other |
| 17:32.57 | jhutchins | Yeah, I never got into the habit of using sudo for single commands. I just become root, do whatever I need to do, then drop back to my user. |
| 17:33.03 | Numero-6 | and when i make a doc about a tutorial i want write easy just like copy/past |
| 17:33.19 | Numero-6 | so that why i ask for run a cmd in normal user, in session root |
| 17:33.30 | Numero-6 | yeaa |
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| 17:35.58 | rendar | i have uninstalled a package, postgresql-11, and i use `dpkg-query -l "$@" >/dev/null 2>&1` this script to check if the package is installed or not, but it doesn't work because with that command, the package results installed, since i get this line: `un postgresql-11 <none> <none> (no description available)`, how to fix this? |
| 17:36.06 | rendar | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:36.11 | rendar | but i'm checking the dpkg-query return value there |
| 17:36.13 | rendar | any clues? |
| 17:37.00 | slop | ty ty on Citrix tips dermoth, jhutchins will try those |
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| 17:42.01 | giaco | hello! When apt upgrade is performed and there are some dkms modules installed, the system compiles the dkms modules so that they would be ready to modprobe before next kernel boot. How does this system works? |
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| 17:42.44 | giaco | I'm asking this as I would like to know how this is working on a real debian, to fix what is non-working in debian-like raspbian |
| 17:42.59 | jhutchins | giaco: I think what happens is on the boot after the kernel upgrade, dkms checks the incompatible modules and re-runs the build. |
| 17:43.21 | jhutchins | !raspian |
| 17:43.21 | dpkg | Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. https://www.raspbian.org/ |
| 17:43.24 | giaco | jhutchins: so it happens on next boot, not before next boot |
| 17:43.55 | jhutchins | As far as I know, and I use it for my nvidia drivers. |
| 17:44.17 | jhutchins | giaco: There's always the possibility that raspian does it differently. |
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| 17:44.38 | giaco | was it really necessary to paste what raspbian is, and that you don't support raspbian, considering my question? |
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| 17:44.56 | giaco | I'm not asking anything about raspbian |
| 17:45.07 | rendar | any help? |
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| 17:49.10 | jhutchins | giaco: We can't know if raspian does it the same way, and I did tell you how Debian does it. |
| 17:49.26 | karlpinc | rendar: If you do anything >/dev/null 2>&1 Then you get nothing on stdout and nothing on stderr. |
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| 17:49.39 | BCMM | giaco: which bit of the system are you wondering about? if it helps, a "something-dkms" package usually depends on the dkms framework, which it invokes in postinst |
| 17:49.41 | jhutchins | giaco: I just want to emphasize that they are different, they change things, and we can't know what they do and don't change. |
| 17:49.53 | rendar | karlpinc: i know that, hence i added: 18:36 | <rendar> but i'm checking the dpkg-query return value there |
| 17:50.11 | rendar | how can i check if postgresq-11 package is installed or not, by checking exit code of some command?! |
| 17:50.25 | BCMM | jhutchins: i'm sorry, but giaco made it 100% clear that they were asking about how debian works, and are prepared to work out for themselves how raspbian differs |
| 17:50.27 | greycat | rendar: dpkg -l should suffice |
| 17:50.45 | jhutchins | rendar: dpkg -l postresq* |
| 17:50.49 | BCMM | well, i guess teh last part was implied |
| 17:50.53 | greycat | hmm, wait, isn't this guy normally rendar2 or something...? |
| 17:50.53 | rendar | greycat: `dpkg -l postgresql-11` returns 0 |
| 17:51.02 | rendar | rendar2? what? no.. |
| 17:51.13 | greycat | oh, that's rander2 ... hmm. |
| 17:51.24 | karlpinc | rendar: You can't use the exit status of dpkg-query to tell anything other than whether the query you gave to dpkg-query was valid or otherwise failed. |
| 17:51.34 | greycat | karlpinc: that sucks. |
| 17:52.02 | greycat | karlpinc: ... and appears to be untrue. |
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| 17:52.17 | greycat | "dpkg -l sdhkfjsd" gives me exit status 1 here |
| 17:52.31 | rendar | greycat: the point is dpkg -l returns 0. https://bpa.st/QT4Q |
| 17:52.37 | giaco | BCMM: I know what dkms do, as I have manually created some dkms modules that would "dkms autoinstall" nicely. I also see that debian has some system to kick-in dkms recompilation when apt update installs a new binary kernel and kernel-headers. So what I am asking is how this automatic "dkms autoinstall" system works when debian is in the condition of running a kernel but ready to boot in next one |
| 17:52.37 | karlpinc | greycat: The man page says: 1 The requested query failed either fully or partially, and 2 Fatal or unrecoverable error due to invalid command-line usage. |
| 17:52.39 | giaco | on next restart. |
| 17:52.41 | greycat | rendar: it does not do that for me. |
| 17:52.53 | rendar | greycat: look at that printing, it says (un) flag to postgresql-11 |
| 17:53.03 | greycat | unicorn:~$ dpkg -l sdhkfjsd | cat ; declare -p PIPESTATUS |
| 17:53.03 | greycat | dpkg-query: no packages found matching sdhkfjsd |
| 17:53.03 | greycat | declare -a PIPESTATUS=([0]="1" [1]="0") |
| 17:53.14 | jhutchins | rendar: dpkg -l returns zero because it runs successfully. You have to supply a useful result. |
| 17:53.19 | greycat | rendar: you didn't pass the package name as an ARGUMENT ?!?! |
| 17:53.20 | karlpinc | The exit status does not depend on whether or not the package is installed. |
| 17:53.20 | jhutchins | supply a packagename. |
| 17:53.22 | BCMM | giaco: ah, i see |
| 17:53.27 | rendar | greycat: man, that also happens to me, but postgresql-11 is a package i have just uninstalled, and not some RANDOM CHARACTERS! |
| 17:53.35 | rendar | so it gives (un) postgresql-11 |
| 17:53.45 | rendar | and exists with 0 |
| 17:53.48 | rendar | exits* |
| 17:53.52 | greycat | you're claiming that it gives a different result if the package was installed and then purged, vs. never installed? |
| 17:53.58 | rendar | yes |
| 17:54.09 | greycat | Oh well, that sucks. Use a pipeline, then. |
| 17:54.15 | karlpinc | rendar: So pipe the output of dpkg-query to grep -q, and look and the exit status of grep. |
| 17:54.25 | jhutchins | giaco: It's possible that current stable does dkms differerntly, I'm running oldstable. |
| 17:54.26 | greycat | grep ^.i is the traditional one |
| 17:54.34 | rendar | let's see |
| 17:54.53 | rendar | first of all, i wish to understand why i get that (un) flag on postgresql-11, a package i have just uninstalled |
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| 17:55.08 | giaco | jhutchins: you told me that in your oldstable dkms kicks in on next reboot, not before, correct? |
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| 17:55.10 | greycat | the headers of "dpkg -l" explain what each of the letter flags means |
| 17:55.42 | jhutchins | giaco: Correct. |
| 17:56.02 | giaco | jhutchins: thanks, so it but be a boot hook or something like that |
| 17:56.11 | giaco | and before module mount |
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| 17:56.36 | rendar | greycat: yeah i saw that, but do you refer to Desired=XYZ or Status=ABC? I can't see if (un) refers to Desired=Unknown or Status=Unpacked |
| 17:56.37 | karlpinc | greycat: It may be that the exit status depends on whether or not the supplied query identifies a package that exists.... |
| 17:57.11 | karlpinc | The man page does not say what a "bad query" is. |
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| 17:59.14 | BCMM | jhutchins: hang on, dkms rebuilds modules during the boot process? |
| 17:59.47 | giaco | BCMM: I am quite surprised too |
| 17:59.54 | BCMM | i'm not entirely sure that's right |
| 18:00.11 | BCMM | particularly as it looks like /etc/kernel/header_postinst.d/dkms would trigger whenever a new kernel headers package is installed |
| 18:00.15 | giaco | I was expecting something on kernel-headers upgrade |
| 18:00.18 | BCMM | (hook installed by the dkms package) |
| 18:00.33 | giaco | nice spot BCMM, thanks |
| 18:02.29 | greycat | dkms doesn't build things at boot time, no. It builds things at package installation time. |
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| 18:03.39 | giaco | next question. Who is in charge of running "/etc/kernel/header_postinst.d/dkms", is it apt? |
| 18:04.02 | BCMM | giaco: postinst file in the kernel headers package, i think |
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| 18:04.41 | BCMM | yup |
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| 18:05.50 | rendar | on apt-get update i get this error: https://bpa.st/UANA -- it seems some random app called sayonara spoiled the apt-get conf files, how can i clean it, and remove this unwanted thing? |
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| 18:06.09 | BCMM | giaco: https://salsa.debian.org/kernel-team/linux/-/blob/master/debian/templates/headers.postinst.in |
| 18:06.29 | giaco | BCMM: super! thanks again |
| 18:06.34 | BCMM | np |
| 18:07.34 | BCMM | so looks like anybody could put stuff in /etc/kernel/header_postinst.d to have it trigger on kernel header installation, but currently only dkms actually does |
| 18:07.37 | giaco | next unrelated question. Is there a file, in debian, containing the info about the kernel that will boot next, while still running old one? |
| 18:07.57 | BCMM | giaco: as in, telling you which kernel would be booted? |
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| 18:08.14 | giaco | BCMM: yeah, that short version :D |
| 18:08.33 | BCMM | not sure, but i don't think as it would presumably depend on the bootloader you are using |
| 18:08.40 | giaco | k |
| 18:08.50 | BCMM | but i don't think dkms tries to detect that |
| 18:09.25 | quadrathoch2 | dkms builds for every kernel available |
| 18:09.25 | BCMM | i think it just does it for every kernel that's installed |
| 18:09.34 | BCMM | (or every headers) |
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| 18:12.10 | giaco | "dkms autoinstall" tries to build for "uname -r" that would be old kernel before reboot |
| 18:13.40 | BCMM | right, but /etc/kernel/header_postinst.d/dkms doesn't invoke `dkms autoinstall` |
| 18:14.30 | BCMM | specifically it looks like it does `dkms autoinstall --kernelver $kernel` |
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| 18:14.58 | BCMM | (where $kernel is version of the headers package that just got installed) |
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| 18:27.04 | sponix2ipfw | I rebuilt wireguard-dkms and now when I rmmod wireguard and modprobe wireguard only the wireguard module itself and the ipv6 stuff is loading, NOT ipv4 stuff that I need for it to function |
| 18:27.19 | sponix2ipfw | Anyone have a quick solution for this that doesn't involve a reboot ? |
| 18:27.52 | zutat | how is the kernel image package called? i can find linux-config, linux-doc, linux-headers and so forth, but can't see an image in the list |
| 18:28.17 | towo` | linux-image-foo |
| 18:29.00 | zutat | towo`: thanks |
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| 18:31.47 | zutat | hmm. for some reason, the search on package.debian.org wouldn't list any linux-image- packages for buster-backports, but just browsing the packages lists several packages named like that |
| 18:31.59 | sponix2ipfw | ,v linux-image-amd64 |
| 18:32.00 | judd | Package: linux-image-amd64 on amd64 -- jessie: 3.16+63+deb8u2; jessie-security: 3.16+63+deb8u7; stretch-security: 4.9+80+deb9u6; stretch: 4.9+80+deb9u11; stretch-backports: 4.19+105+deb10u4~bpo9+1; buster-security: 4.19+105+deb10u7; buster: 4.19+105+deb10u8; buster-backports: 5.9.6-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 5.10.4-1; sid: 5.10.5-1 |
| 18:32.12 | sponix2ipfw | ,v linux-headers-amd64 |
| 18:32.14 | judd | Package: linux-headers-amd64 on amd64 -- jessie: 3.16+63+deb8u2; jessie-security: 3.16+63+deb8u7; stretch-security: 4.9+80+deb9u6; stretch: 4.9+80+deb9u11; stretch-backports: 4.19+105+deb10u4~bpo9+1; buster-security: 4.19+105+deb10u7; buster: 4.19+105+deb10u8; buster-backports: 5.9.6-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 5.10.4-1; sid: 5.10.5-1 |
| 18:32.49 | sponix2ipfw | Hmm, never mind... I need to go home and reboot the machine, I locked myself out of it by forcing the unload of ipv6 LOL |
| 18:33.41 | zutat | thanks |
| 18:35.23 | BCMM | zutat: site's working fine for me... https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=names&keywords=linux-image- |
| 18:35.34 | echelon | hi, how do you read the version for this.. samba-common 2:3.6.6-6+deb7u7 |
| 18:35.38 | BCMM | oh sorry, for buster-backports in particular |
| 18:35.51 | echelon | is the major version 2, or 3? |
| 18:36.18 | BCMM | yeah it's odd that the search isn't showing linux-image-5.9.0-0.bpo.2-amd64 for example |
| 18:36.29 | zutat | BCMM: exactly |
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| 18:47.07 | karlpinc | echelon: The "epoch" is 2, major version is 3. |
| 18:47.36 | echelon | what does the epoch indicate |
| 18:48.06 | greycat | !debian epoch |
| 18:48.06 | dpkg | The version number of a package has a prepended number called the "epoch". It is only added when the system for upstream version numbers changes. Example: in sarge, X was version 6.8 but in etch it was 1.1 (xfree86->xorg). But 1 < 6, so we add an epoch "2:" to signify that everything with 2: is newer (if there is no : the epoch is assumed to be "0"). See section 5.6.12 of <policy> or ask me about <compare versions> <debian revision>. |
| 18:48.44 | echelon | thanks |
| 18:49.06 | karlpinc | echelon: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-version |
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| 19:01.24 | slop | Which IRC client do you use with Debian? Some of my favorites from years ago appear to no longer be supported (bitchx, xchat) |
| 19:02.28 | zykotick9 | slop: irssi and hexchat are two alternatives |
| 19:02.31 | greycat | if you used bitchx, consider irssi or weechat |
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| 19:02.49 | slop | thanks! |
| 19:04.40 | EdePopede | and xchat would be hexchat now |
| 19:05.23 | EdePopede | how long should it usually take until the systemd --user ends after logging out from the DE? |
| 19:07.24 | EdePopede | just ran a test session on the other PC after the first one seems to run like forever, killed the other processes (tracker-miner-fs, tracker-miner-apps, applet.py, agent) manually, waited for checked after one and a half hours now, and the systemd tree is gone. |
| 19:07.48 | sponix2ipfw | I changed routers and my network also went from 192.168.1.* to 192.168.50.* -- for some reason my default gw still comes in as 192.168.1.1 on every boot, even though it should just be pulling a dhcp lease |
| 19:07.59 | greycat | EdePopede: sounds like a question for #systemd |
| 19:08.02 | sponix2ipfw | anyone know where I might have manually configured this or something ? |
| 19:08.24 | EdePopede | greycat: won't they send me back to #debian because debian? |
| 19:08.36 | greycat | well, we don't know |
| 19:08.48 | queip | (cross git) any editor that shows 2 files line by line and allows to select easily to take each line from file A or B? kind of like meld, but not just working on diff and each line is separate? |
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| 19:09.47 | EdePopede | i thik i'll give it a 3rd try first and not kill anyhing. if the processes end anyway than maybe this is how it *should* work normally. |
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| 19:28.05 | JordiGH | A few years ago I added some images to a pdf. I can't remember what program I used to do that. I just need to add my signature to a pdf form. Any clue what I used? |
| 19:28.38 | greycat | spins the wheel of guessing ... you used ... adobe acrobat! |
| 19:29.28 | JordiGH | No, no non-free software. |
| 19:29.48 | JordiGH | I thought I converted to flpsed but that doesn't allow adding images. |
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| 19:32.20 | JordiGH | xournal! |
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| 19:32.43 | petn-randall | JordiGH: IIRC gimp or inkscape can open PDFs. |
| 19:32.56 | JordiGH | xournal does what I want, pretty sure. |
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| 19:35.26 | JordiGH | Let's hope I remember this name again four years from now on when I need to work with a pdf form again. |
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| 19:44.21 | zutat | i installed a linux-image from backports. it displays an error about a missing firmware file on boot and freezes there. does it need some additional packages? |
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| 19:47.22 | browzing | repost: Anyone running into this at all? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=946180 -- I've got openssh/1:8.4p1-3 -- occasionally I disconnect from my server -- but when I got to reconnect SSH won't connect and -v shows me 'Connection Reset by Peer'. Server is still online and server. I setup a second sshd with dropbear to retain access and I am basically hitting that debian bug. |
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| 19:47.23 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/946180 in openssh-server (open): «openssh-server: Occasionally missing privilege separation directory with ssh.socket»; severity: important; opened: 2019-12-04; last modified: 2019-12-04. |
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| 19:51.06 | jelly | zutat, if you use a newer kernel from backports, you also need matching newer firmware from backports |
| 19:51.29 | jelly | usually the same firmware packages that you needed with standard kernel |
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| 19:54.20 | sponix | other than /etc/network/interfaces and /etc/networks -- where could my rig be picking up this old route for the default gw ? |
| 19:55.55 | slop | sponix, anything showing in the routing table? |
| 19:56.03 | slop | static route maybe? |
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| 19:56.19 | slop | route -n |
| 19:59.40 | zutat | ,v firmware-linux-free |
| 19:59.41 | judd | Package: firmware-linux-free on amd64 -- jessie: 3.3; buster: 3.4; stretch: 3.4; bullseye: 20200122-1; sid: 20200122-1 |
| 19:59.46 | sponix | slop: that is the thing, netstat -rn shows 192.168.1.1 as the default route/gw after a restart. This was the network for my OLD router, the new one is 192.168.50.1 -- Everything was dhcp, and it was still getting the old gateway |
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| 20:00.06 | sponix | slop: I just configured static, going to give it another reboot and see if it works correctly |
| 20:00.18 | slop | thats all I can think of :/ |
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| 20:31.48 | slop | sponix, any luck? |
| 20:32.49 | BillyZane | sup |
| 20:33.01 | zutat | jelly: there is no equivalent firmware package. maybe i'm just unlucky and the backported kernels don't work on that machine |
| 20:33.17 | BillyZane | is it possible to start my server remotely and view grub over a network connection |
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| 20:40.42 | Kocane | Anyone who can help me wih some xorg/xinit/xrandr related? I got an Intel NUC running Kodi that starts with /usr/bin/xinit thru a systemd file. But it seems to me it doesnt output full range RGB and I'm having some trouble figuring out how I got about configuring it correctly. I've seen something With Xrandr it seems possible to output it with "-- |
| 20:40.43 | Kocane | set "Broadcast RGB" "Full"" but I don't get how to configure that if I'm using xinit. |
| 20:42.57 | zutat | wouldn't a xorg configuration file help? |
| 20:43.35 | sponix | slop: still working on it, somehow my eth1 is getting both the new and the old networks (192.168.1.144 192.168.1.1) (192.168.50.144 192.168.50.1) -- and they conflict |
| 20:43.43 | EdePopede | is ps from debian not able to show processes of a user as tree? or is just its manpage total crap? |
| 20:43.55 | greycat | The "f" option does the tree thing. |
| 20:43.59 | Kocane | zutat: does that mean in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d? |
| 20:44.09 | greycat | ps f -u someuser |
| 20:44.15 | EdePopede | i always use faux and i have no idea how to not show everything |
| 20:44.15 | sponix | I seem to have hardcoded the old network in the OS somewhere. But it isn't in dhcpclient.conf or /etc/network/interfaces where I normally look |
| 20:44.16 | greycat | note the lack of a - before f |
| 20:44.20 | sponix | BRB |
| 20:44.45 | EdePopede | thanks, that was it. mixing different option sets is still weird. |
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| 20:46.19 | zutat | Kocane: yes. you should be able to use the options in a config file there. i would guess that they go to a "monitor" section of such a file |
| 20:46.22 | EdePopede | great. with faux it displays the systemd group, then the others, with f -u it reverses the order |
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| 20:49.15 | sponix2ipfw | well I might just break down and reinstall the OS at this rate |
| 20:49.18 | sponix2ipfw | this is nuts |
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| 20:49.57 | EdePopede | BSD options know only of EUID, but not RUID. only U vs. -U and -u from Unix options. |
| 20:50.30 | zutat | Kocane: look at this page to get an idea. that option seems to go in a "Screen" section |
| 20:50.37 | zutat | Kocane: https://openelec.tv/documentation/configuration/configuring-a-custom-xorg-conf |
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| 20:52.28 | Kocane | zutat Hmm, thats where I came across "Intel doesn't have an option to set colorspace in their xorg.conf yet. If you want to set the colorspace then you will have to create an autostart.sh file and use the following" |
| 20:55.14 | zutat | Kocane: i don't have access to an X machine, but there should be a way to put the same options in a config file as what you use with xrandr |
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| 20:59.33 | Kocane | Myeah I agree.. just can't really figure it out |
| 20:59.47 | Kocane | but running sudo xrandr --output HDMI-1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Full" helps |
| 21:00.04 | Kocane | just a bit lame to have do it thru a script each time |
| 21:02.37 | Kocane | ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/xrandr --output HDMI-1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Full" then, I guess |
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| 21:11.20 | wr | how would i install a Ralink RT2870 Linksys WUSB600N v1 Dual-Band Wireless-N Network Adapter on debian 10.7? |
| 21:11.35 | sney | !ralink firmware |
| 21:11.35 | dpkg | Firmware from userspace is required by the <rt61pci>, <rt73usb>, <rt2860sta>, <rt2870sta>, <rt2800pci> and <rt2800usb> drivers. Ask me about <non-free sources>, then install the firmware-ralink package to provide. |
| 21:11.40 | CommunistWolf | ralink are weird - or were |
| 21:16.36 | slop | are you using xrandr settings from a different system such as ubuntu? |
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| 21:27.17 | wr | sney, have that installed |
| 21:29.23 | sney | wr: did you reboot after installing? |
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| 21:32.40 | wr | sney, yes, i already have it for some time |
| 21:33.41 | sney | according to https://wiki.debian.org/rt2800usb, the firmware package is the only thing you need for that adapter. |
| 21:33.53 | sney | in 'lsmod' do you see rt2800usb listed, when the dongle is connected? |
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| 21:36.47 | sponix2ipfw | slop: when I get home, I am going to go with a different approach, I'm just going to change the IP scheme on the router to match what my Linux rig thinks it must be LOL |
| 21:37.22 | sponix2ipfw | slop: appreciate your help though. at this point I think doing it on the router is going to require less effort |
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| 21:41.18 | wr | sney, i have rt2x00usb 24576 1 rt2800usb, so i guess yes |
| 21:42.21 | wr | sney, by the way it more than one time |
| 21:42.36 | wr | *i have |
| 21:43.39 | wr | sney, i mean on module just once |
| 21:44.27 | sney | ok? if lsmod shows the rt2800usb driver, it doesn't matter how many times it's in the list, that just means it's loaded. and the device is "installed". |
| 21:44.35 | sney | and you can now configure it |
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| 21:49.10 | wr | sney, on my NM it doesn't show up, so i would have to use terminal? |
| 21:49.52 | sney | if it's not visible in n-m, check if it already has an entry in /etc/network/interfaces, as n-m will ignore any interface specified in that file |
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| 21:50.24 | wr | sney, ah wait, maybe i confused this, cause my motherboard is Asus and has a onboard card, gimme a sec, i'm gonna drop |
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| 22:00.33 | wr | sney, the device i guess was there, just naming confused me, cause i have two Asus devices |
| 22:00.47 | sney | ok, so it's fine now? |
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| 22:02.01 | wr | sney, seems so, i am just checking which is which cause i have three cards and or the naming confused or it wasn't on list but now is |
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| 22:03.05 | sney | you can look at the link/ether addresses in the 'ip a' output to match interface names to specific hardware |
| 22:03.43 | Hash | Trying to connect to oftc with weechat and I Get: https://bpa.st/ALTQ |
| 22:03.47 | Hash | Any idea what to do here? |
| 22:04.32 | sney | Hash: according to https://www.oftc.net/, 7000 is not a ssl port |
| 22:04.37 | Hash | Oh. |
| 22:04.50 | Hash | They changed stuff maybe. This is my weechat config from years ago |
| 22:05.02 | sney | looks like you want 6697 or 9999 now. |
| 22:05.10 | Hash | Ok |
| 22:05.31 | wr | sney, yes i usually do that too |
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| 22:15.06 | rander2 | hello |
| 22:15.20 | rander2 | how may interfaces have android ? |
| 22:15.22 | rander2 | http://paste.debian.net/1181020/ |
| 22:16.04 | rander2 | http://paste.debian.net/1181022/ |
| 22:17.01 | sney | rander2: you'll have to ask an android channel. |
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| 22:18.31 | rander2 | sney, ok, excuse me for the OT , but on #android all is dead. I'm studying android , I found it much cryptic and obscure. |
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| 22:18.53 | sney | !they don't know |
| 22:18.53 | dpkg | We're sorry your distro's channel isn't being helpful, but that doesn't make it appropriate to use #debian for non-Debian questions. Please go back to your channel and wait patiently for better help, or install Debian and party with us. |
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| 22:19.23 | sney | android questions don't suddenly become relevant just because you used a debian pastebin. come on. |
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| 22:24.27 | pfred1 | I need an android to make me a sammich |
| 22:24.46 | rander2 | ok, excuse me |
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| 22:26.36 | pfred1 | hey when's Bullseye gonna drop? |
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| 22:32.50 | jhutchins | pfred1: When it's ready. |
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| 22:33.35 | pfred1 | jhutchins oh come on give me the inside scoop |
| 22:33.47 | pfred1 | I promise I won't tell anyone! |
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| 22:34.26 | sney | if this freeze is a similar length to the last few freezes, it'll be sometime in Q3 of this year. |
| 22:34.44 | sney | but that may be a big "if" |
| 22:35.04 | pfred1 | yeah i guess i can wait that long |
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| 22:37.20 | Hash | pfred1: it's all public info. Depending on the number of RC bugs |
| 22:37.50 | jhutchins | pfred1: You know there's no scheduled date for a release until they are actually ready to do it. |
| 22:38.23 | jhutchins | pfred1: There have been releases where they stayed in freeze for quite a while dealing with some serious problem. |
| 22:38.28 | Hash | If you start hearing bout rc bug hunting weekend parties, you can change your underwear |
| 22:39.01 | pfred1 | jhutchins There have been releases where they had serious problems too |
| 22:40.35 | jhutchins | pfred1: Not too many with Debian. I got caught by a few bad ones on Mandrake. (like dovecot wouldn't start on my mailserver because the config file format was obsolete, and obviously nobody had tested it). |
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| 23:25.19 | karlpinc | !guess the release date |
| 23:25.19 | dpkg | Guess the release date is a game you can play! Look at http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ and guess when the green line will reach 0. |
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| 23:29.59 | dob1 | what you use to play a wav file from command line? |
| 23:30.27 | dob1 | I remember there was "play" time ago... but I don't find it anymore |
| 23:31.59 | dob1 | I installed sox. it seems to work |
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| 23:33.25 | pfred1 | aplay? |
| 23:34.35 | dob1 | sox has play |
| 23:34.45 | pfred1 | aplay is part of the alsa-utils package |
| 23:35.01 | dob1 | but alsa is not replace by pulseaudio? |
| 23:35.05 | freem | no |
| 23:35.11 | freem | pulseaudio *uses* alsa |
| 23:35.24 | dob1 | ah ok! |
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| 23:35.48 | freem | ALSA: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture. Basically, it's how the kernel handle sound hardware, if I'm not wrong |
| 23:36.09 | pfred1 | alsa is the native sound driver pulseaudio is a server |
| 23:41.46 | dob1 | what was the name of the sound system before alsa? |
| 23:41.51 | freem | OSS |
| 23:41.55 | dob1 | ah right |
| 23:41.56 | pfred1 | OSS |
| 23:42.19 | pfred1 | I still have my license file kicking around someplace |
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