| 00:00.20 | hendursaga | jmcnaught: Nope |
| 00:00.34 | ratrace | koollman: thank kingsley, they prompted it, I was just reading its manpage now |
| 00:01.31 | hendursaga | Perhaps I'll need to fix that Radeon firmware problem first??? |
| 00:01.51 | _shawn | hendursaga: systemctl isolate graphical.target? |
| 00:01.59 | ratrace | hendursaga: what radeon firmware problem? |
| 00:03.00 | hendursaga | ratrace: When I boot up it says it's missing firmware |
| 00:03.27 | hendursaga | Huh. So I did systemctl start gdm and now it finally has a login prompt |
| 00:04.07 | ratrace | hendursaga: yes, definitely do install it, I think it's the firmware-amd-graphics package |
| 00:04.21 | hendursaga | Is the drivers proprietary though? |
| 00:04.30 | ratrace | not by default |
| 00:04.45 | ratrace | amdgpu is in the kernel ; but it requires the firmware, yes |
| 00:04.51 | hendursaga | This the guide? https://wiki.debian.org/AtiHowTo |
| 00:05.02 | Taserface | that also works. If you want gdm to run at startup you need to run: sudo systemctl set-default graphical |
| 00:05.34 | ratrace | hendursaga: looks sane-ish |
| 00:05.48 | hendursaga | Taserface: I just did systemctl set-default graphical.target is that the same?? |
| 00:06.01 | ratrace | yes |
| 00:06.10 | hendursaga | Well, it ain't working then |
| 00:06.15 | sig_9 | is there a nonfree testing netinstall iso? |
| 00:06.43 | hendursaga | Come to think of it, the first time I ran systemctl start gdm it exited immediately and I ran it again. |
| 00:06.57 | ratrace | hendursaga: is the gdm.service "enabled" ? |
| 00:07.16 | hendursaga | ratrace: Should be, I just checked |
| 00:07.37 | ratrace | you should really look into the logs, to see why it's failing on boot, but then working when you manually start it |
| 00:08.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1173] by debhelper |
| 00:08.19 | ratrace | hendursaga: you don't have any systemd target modifiers in the grub's kernel command line options? |
| 00:09.35 | hendursaga | Are they there by default? |
| 00:09.39 | ratrace | nope |
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| 00:10.01 | hendursaga | Also goodness, I have a Radeon HD 6320 aka Wrestler, this was manufactured in '11.. is it supported?? |
| 00:10.29 | hendursaga | Do I install xserver-xorg-video-radeon?? But would that just be X11 support? |
| 00:11.06 | _shawn | sig_9: there is |
| 00:11.13 | ratrace | hendursaga: which you need anyway |
| 00:12.13 | hendursaga | So there's this... https://h-node.org/videocards/view/en/817/Advanced-Micro-Devices--AMD--nee-ATI-Wrestler--Radeon-HD-6320-/1/1/undef/undef/undef/undef/video-card-works/Wrestler |
| 00:12.34 | hendursaga | Does that mean I won't have 3D acceleration? Is that what I'm missing, why GNOME is soooo slow? |
| 00:13.05 | hendursaga | Welp that package is already installed anyway |
| 00:13.50 | ratrace | hendursaga: that's for the ancient 3.0-something kernel apparently; I think that even predates AMD opensourcing the drivers |
| 00:14.13 | hendursaga | Yeah I need a new laptop ha |
| 00:14.33 | hendursaga | So, proprietary blobs then? |
| 00:15.08 | ratrace | I know in the past amd drivers used to be... unkind.... to their old models, but I don't think that's the case now with amdgpu in the kernel |
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| 00:17.35 | hendursaga | Guess I'll just find out.. :/ |
| 00:17.39 | ratrace | hendursaga: install mesa-utils if you haven't already and run glxinfo | grep "OpenGL renderer" ; what does it say? |
| 00:18.08 | _shawn | hendursaga: that link you posted was from 2012 |
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| 00:19.16 | hendursaga | _shawn: H-Node? I got the '11 year from Wikipedia I think |
| 00:19.17 | Taserface | also you probably need to restart after installing the firmware package, if you haven't already |
| 00:19.35 | hendursaga | Will do soon, yeahh |
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| 00:20.07 | _shawn | hendursaga: 2011 is worse,that information is meaningless now |
| 00:20.10 | ratrace | should do it first thing, if you want any graphics there |
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| 00:21.04 | hendursaga | ratrace: llvmpipe (LLVM 7.8, 128 bits) |
| 00:21.12 | ratrace | yeah that's software renderer |
| 00:21.24 | hendursaga | I haven't restarted yet though |
| 00:21.32 | ratrace | gnome does require opengl acceleration, yes |
| 00:21.42 | ratrace | hendursaga: you should, first thing |
| 00:21.48 | hendursaga | Doing now.. |
| 00:21.49 | ratrace | (after installing firmware) |
| 00:22.03 | hendursaga | Welp! Good news, the firmware error doesn't show on boot |
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| 00:23.09 | hendursaga | And.. it boots into a graphical interface! |
| 00:23.20 | ratrace | why, of course. |
| 00:23.35 | hendursaga | Well it didn't last time so.. |
| 00:23.43 | ratrace | now... there should be a cog icon somewhere, where you can select between wayland or xorg session |
| 00:23.57 | hendursaga | Does GNOME Classic use Wayland by default? |
| 00:24.20 | ratrace | on debian it should, yes. |
| 00:24.58 | ratrace | wait..... gnome _classic_ ? |
| 00:25.18 | hendursaga | OK things are much nicer looking and smooth.. |
| 00:25.27 | hendursaga | Yeah, Classic, that was the item selected by default |
| 00:26.20 | hendursaga | Yeah I'm in X11 it seems.. logout then select something else? |
| 00:26.22 | ratrace | yeah I don't know that far ... but there should be a wayland option listed explicitly |
| 00:27.22 | hendursaga | Yeah there's a GNOME (Wayland) option.. |
| 00:27.49 | hendursaga | Re-run that glxinfo command? |
| 00:28.46 | hendursaga | Ah! It's different now, guess things are accelerated now? |
| 00:29.12 | ratrace | dunno. what it says? |
| 00:30.02 | hendursaga | Hold on, let me SSH into it so I can copy the output instead of type it in :P |
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| 00:31.23 | hendursaga | Wait, I didn't install one |
| 00:31.32 | ratrace | or you can pipe it to termbin.com 9999 via netcat and gie us teh url you get |
| 00:32.00 | ratrace | glxinfo | grep renderer | nc termbin.com 9999 |
| 00:34.22 | hendursaga | Cool little site |
| 00:35.00 | hendursaga | https://termbin.com/700n |
| 00:36.19 | hendursaga | So, accelerated? |
| 00:36.43 | ratrace | weird string, but I guess that is running on the GPU indeed. now whether something is fully accelerated, dunno, opengl can run in software what's missing on the hardware |
| 00:37.04 | hendursaga | Yeah I've done a *bit* of OpenGL coding before |
| 00:37.07 | hendursaga | Royal pain |
| 00:37.24 | ratrace | right, so you know. but if gnome is snappy... and that thing IS a hog, then you're damn well accelerated :) |
| 00:37.42 | hendursaga | Anyway, fingers crossed, my system is finally up and running! Thanks! |
| 00:38.04 | hendursaga | And no, it's not snappy, it just doesn't take 30 seconds to open Konsole :P |
| 00:41.18 | ratrace | note also that Radeon HD 6320 is a very ancient and very underperforming gpu, for modern standards |
| 00:41.21 | hendursaga | Now to see if Sway suits me |
| 00:41.38 | hendursaga | Yeah, a decade old practically :/ |
| 00:41.43 | ratrace | sway is wayland fork of i3-wm. if you like tiling WMs like I do, sway's gonna be nice |
| 00:41.59 | hendursaga | I've been trying to get into tiling WMs |
| 00:42.08 | hendursaga | There's not much screen to optimize though :P |
| 00:42.30 | ratrace | I use i3wm and I do almost no tiling :) |
| 00:42.54 | ratrace | terminals here or there, but the main apps I run, are full screen size |
| 00:43.06 | brachamh | hey, i'm trying to use regionset but it's not finding a disc in the drive. debian buster, video dvd |
| 00:46.39 | ratrace | hendursaga: holy cow, look at the passmark score ... yeah that gnome is definitely not gonna be snappy :) https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+HD+6320&id=258 |
| 00:47.54 | ratrace | last time I ran gnome, 'twas with gtx 960, and even that was visibly sluggish. and that card scores 30x better |
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| 00:48.44 | brachamh | i haven't used gnome since i moved to debian. it seemed decent on ubuntu 18.04, but when 20.04 came out it seemed slow |
| 00:49.10 | hendursaga | Woah, why's it so pricey? ratrace |
| 00:49.26 | hendursaga | Or was, at least |
| 00:50.01 | jmcnaught | I recommend gnome-shell-extension-impatience to speed up animations. |
| 00:50.02 | ratrace | because that was a modern card in 2012 :) |
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| 00:50.30 | brachamh | to use regionset, the path to the drive should be something like /dev/sr0, correct? |
| 00:51.07 | ratrace | brachamh: sounds like it |
| 00:51.26 | hendursaga | jmcnaught: Oh, that sounds good |
| 00:52.00 | brachamh | ok. any idea why regionset wouldn't be able to read the drive? |
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| 00:53.05 | ratrace | none whatsoever. I haven't had a DVD drive since ... 2014? |
| 00:53.24 | brachamh | oh? all bluray? or no optical? |
| 00:53.29 | ratrace | no optical |
| 00:53.34 | brachamh | ah |
| 00:53.49 | dvs | blinds ratrace |
| 00:54.39 | ratrace | brachamh: there was some silly named library you needed to have installed in order to work with .... copy protected DVDs |
| 00:54.40 | brachamh | i'm trying to transfer my reasonably extensive dvd library to hard drive to use in emby |
| 00:55.11 | brachamh | ratrace: yes, libdvdcss2 |
| 00:55.14 | brachamh | got it |
| 00:55.46 | ratrace | hmm that, yes ... but I was thinking of libass which is ... related :) |
| 00:56.23 | brachamh | handbrake still won't transcode some discs. installed makemkv which worked for one disc, but now it's saying the region code is wrong for the disc that is the sequel to the one i just ripped |
| 00:56.33 | brachamh | libass ? |
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| 00:57.16 | ratrace | yup. I guess the only place you can scream ASS and not get bannhammered for language. ASS! |
| 00:57.45 | ratrace | ASS FILES! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubStation_Alpha |
| 00:58.02 | ratrace | libass! renders your ass files! |
| 00:58.23 | brachamh | just searched it...libass9 library for SSA/ASS subtitles rendering |
| 00:58.28 | ratrace | yeah :) |
| 00:59.13 | brachamh | that's what could be causing it to hang? |
| 00:59.21 | ratrace | now let's get that banned like libweboob. Lib Web Ob. |
| 00:59.54 | ratrace | brachamh: no no, that was the silly named library I remembered in relation to DVDs, but it's libdvdcss thingy that you _need_ strictly, I misremembered. |
| 01:00.02 | brachamh | oh! |
| 01:00.07 | brachamh | ok, that makes sense lol |
| 01:00.12 | ratrace | it's also illegal in some parts of the world, so caveat emptor |
| 01:00.30 | brachamh | ok. well i have libdvdcss2 already |
| 01:00.37 | brachamh | which is why most discs are working so far |
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| 01:05.41 | ratrace | could be some weird or unsupported copy protection scheme |
| 01:06.17 | ratrace | iirc even some proprietary, paid, licensed, patented, consumer hardware would have issues with some DVD copyprotection schemes |
| 01:06.44 | ratrace | (let alone a FOSSy reimplementation) |
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| 01:06.58 | brachamh | well makemkv says that the region code for the drive doesn't match the region code for the one disc |
| 01:07.53 | brachamh | but i can't even find what the drive's region code is set to |
| 01:08.04 | hendursaga | Huh. So the reason why WiFi didn't work was due to a hardware switch I didn't know about. Except it doesn't work. Fn + F5 |
| 01:08.29 | hendursaga | I tried rfkill list all and it says hardware blocked. |
| 01:08.39 | brachamh | are the function keys set to use as function keys? |
| 01:08.43 | ratrace | hendursaga: also missing firmware? |
| 01:09.23 | brachamh | nevermind, that wouldn't matter for that |
| 01:09.38 | brachamh | what ratrace said |
| 01:10.03 | hendursaga | Well I press it and GNOME shows airplane mode but it doesn't change anything |
| 01:10.21 | hendursaga | There is in fact a message about missing firmware |
| 01:10.30 | hendursaga | rtl_nic/rl18168e-2.fw |
| 01:10.56 | hendursaga | Hmmm. Would a USB WiFi adapter perhaps get around this? |
| 01:11.04 | sney | rtl8168/8169 is a gigabit ethernet adapter, and sometimes doesn't even need the firmware to work |
| 01:11.25 | hendursaga | Ah, well, Ethernet is working |
| 01:11.50 | Taserface | how do I make it so booting doesn't take 5 minutes because I ran mkswap |
| 01:12.18 | Taserface | how do I make it so booting doesn't take 5 minutes whenever I touch anything |
| 01:12.39 | ratrace | what?! |
| 01:12.43 | sney | Taserface: systemd-analyze blame |
| 01:12.55 | KNERD | get faster drive? SATA SSD , or even better NMVe SSD |
| 01:13.03 | sney | and then address whatever is actually taking the time, according to output |
| 01:13.21 | sney | a ssd will speed any system up, but no system should take 5 minutes to boot. |
| 01:13.34 | sney | even enterprise stuff with glacial boot roms doesn't take that long. |
| 01:13.42 | ratrace | plenty of servers will boot in even longer |
| 01:14.00 | ratrace | try massive VM hosts. can take hour(s) to fully boot |
| 01:14.18 | sney | ok, fine, but that is probably not relevant in Taserface's case. |
| 01:14.30 | ratrace | try large storage solutions hosting zfs or btrfs with tens of thousands of snapshots, mountpoints, datasets, .... that can take ages... |
| 01:14.42 | ratrace | ah, probably not. I was referring to "no system" :) |
| 01:14.59 | Taserface | I ran mkswap on the swap part (long story) and I guess the UUID changed |
| 01:15.05 | sney | I type too fast to account for every plot hole. mea culpa. |
| 01:15.22 | Taserface | so bootup is like "swap part not found, please wait 90 secs. And please wait 90 secs again." |
| 01:15.29 | ratrace | Taserface: so you're hitting the "start job is running"? |
| 01:15.39 | hendursaga | OK, plugging in USB adapter shows that that interface is NOT hard or soft blocked.. |
| 01:15.44 | ratrace | Taserface: right right. simple. fix the fstab line |
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| 01:16.14 | Taserface | I know, it's just annoying |
| 01:16.42 | Taserface | does "nobootwait" work for swap partitions? |
| 01:17.04 | ratrace | no idea ... but eh.... why not just give it proper uuid? |
| 01:17.04 | SponiX | this ssb process when it works properly, just seems too easy. Feel like I'm cheating |
| 01:17.39 | sney | SponiX: it's the gateway drug to package maintenance |
| 01:17.45 | ratrace | Taserface: maybe "nofail" in the options column would work. but, again, use correct device in fstab |
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| 01:18.59 | SponiX | sney: yeah, I feel like taking over zfs would be the next step. I find myself building it every week or so anyway |
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| 01:19.32 | ratrace | zfs is easy. just a kernel module with very little deps |
| 01:19.42 | ratrace | (yeah yeah, and userland. still very little deps) |
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| 01:20.02 | SponiX | yep |
| 01:20.18 | SponiX | rtorrent is easy also. And those are the only two I tend to build |
| 01:21.23 | Taserface | why build rtorrent |
| 01:21.43 | sney | zfs is maintained by a team, which would probably welcome a new member. and it looks like rtorrent's actual maintainer hasn't uploaded anything since 2015, so there is clearly room for new volunteer work there too |
| 01:21.44 | Taserface | there's a deb right there <points at repo> |
| 01:21.58 | Taserface | oh |
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| 01:22.56 | Taserface | where did I get "nobootwait" from? |
| 01:23.00 | ratrace | Taserface: you never replied to my question. and I'm having a suspicion you have that "mkswap'ing encrypted swap with random key on boot" thingy, so every time it has a different uuid .. which is solvable with partlabels |
| 01:23.40 | Taserface | I was temporarily using the part for something else |
| 01:23.53 | Taserface | so it is re-mkswap'd part |
| 01:24.49 | sney | SponiX: anyway, I became the hexchat maintainer for a couple years via using the ssb and uupdate processes to build it for myself based on debian's old xchat packages... if you find that the tools are "easy" then there's room for you to do stuff too |
| 01:24.53 | Taserface | (nobootwait appears to be an old flag that disappeared) |
| 01:24.58 | Taserface | (FYI) |
| 01:24.59 | ratrace | Taserface: still, consider using partlabels |
| 01:25.08 | Taserface | yeah I just realised I can do that :) |
| 01:25.16 | Taserface | then I just have to remember to set the label |
| 01:25.42 | Taserface | at least then I only have myself to blame |
| 01:26.00 | ratrace | should be second nature when you parted'it the disk on installation :) |
| 01:26.19 | Taserface | that was the debian installer, that did that |
| 01:26.34 | ratrace | meh, installers. |
| 01:26.56 | Taserface | luxury |
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| 01:27.54 | ratrace | posh swank |
| 01:30.06 | Taserface | where's the hibernate partition set? |
| 01:30.51 | ratrace | Taserface: look at initramfs-tools(7) manpage, grep for RESUME |
| 01:31.31 | Taserface | that's the one |
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| 01:32.10 | Taserface | I was looking for "hibernate" |
| 01:35.18 | Taserface | also it didn't show up in `systemd-analyze blame` |
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| 01:40.52 | Taserface | /say `systemd-analyse critical-chain` shows it |
| 01:41.08 | Taserface | feck |
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| 01:42.43 | ratrace | !pal Taserface |
| 01:42.44 | dpkg | points at Taserface and laughs hysterically |
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| 01:56.00 | brachamh | hahahaha! so i decided to try the disc that wouldn't work in a different machine, and what do ya know, it is transcoding as i type |
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| 05:05.05 | jochum | Now on LiveCD |
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| 05:07.54 | jochum | David ? |
| 05:10.59 | jochum | hmm |
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| 06:03.15 | Sean_McG | hi, is there a channel where I can get help if I am a beginning packager and am stuck on something? |
| 06:04.11 | JackFrost | On the OFTC IRC network yes, if you plan to package something for Debian's repositories then #debian-mentors, if it's just for you then #packaging on OFTC. |
| 06:04.13 | JackFrost | !oftc |
| 06:04.14 | dpkg | OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <freenode>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>. |
| 06:04.29 | Sean_McG | ahhhh OK, thanks |
| 06:04.50 | Sean_McG | (it is something just for me... for now, anyhow) |
| 06:04.50 | JackFrost | Sure thing. |
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| 07:12.09 | tp43_ | Anyone tried to install monodevelop from their website. It does not work for me. I get msBuild pkg problem. |
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| 07:31.31 | tp43_ | Nevermind, I purged everything, upgraded system, and then it worked. |
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| 07:55.05 | Gertm- | I'm trying to make a fully automated debian install USB stick but I'm having trouble getting things exactly right. Does anyone have experience with that? |
| 07:56.08 | oxek | anyone know if this security issue https://github.com/mumble-voip/mumble/pull/4733 affects the version in debian? |
| 07:56.11 | oxek | ,v mumble |
| 07:56.12 | judd | Package: mumble on amd64 -- jessie: 1.2.8-2; jessie-security: 1.2.8-2+deb8u1; stretch: 1.2.18-1+deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.2.18-1+deb9u1; stretch-backports: 1.2.19-2~bpo9+1; buster: 1.3.0~git20190125.440b173+dfsg-2; bullseye: 1.3.3-1; sid: 1.3.3-1 |
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| 08:44.52 | ratrace | oxek: you can easily verify it: a) if it has a CVE you can look up; b) see which codeset is changed with the fix, then find if that codeset exists in the tag that corresponds to version included in debian |
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| 08:49.21 | jelly | doesn't look like it got a CVE assigned yet https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/search/results?form_type=Basic&results_type=overview&query=mumble&search_type=last3months |
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| 09:00.59 | oxek | I couldn't find a CVE for it either. Nobody probably asked for it to be assigned. |
| 09:02.06 | ratrace | bad developers. |
| 09:03.01 | oxek | maybe. I'm trying to see if the code that is vulnerable is present in the version in debian. |
| 09:03.04 | jelly | anyone can ask for a CVE for anything, really, someone else's software too |
| 09:03.46 | oxek | I'll ask for a CVE for my brain |
| 09:04.12 | jelly | good luck getting that patched |
| 09:04.37 | oxek | bad developers :D |
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| 09:05.04 | jelly | intellignet design does not mean no errors in production :-) |
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| 09:06.23 | oxek | if only my brain were programmed in a memory-safe language at least |
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| 09:08.28 | ratrace | well lets see if the "fix" introduced more bugs..... msgBox.setDetailedText(QObject::tr("Blocked URL: \"%1\"").arg(url.toString())); ? srsly? using unsanitized input value? nice. |
| 09:15.06 | jelly | what could go wrong |
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| 09:27.49 | oxek | ratrace: what would need to be sanitized about that part? Isn't it just a QT messagebox, so any text is fine? |
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| 09:32.11 | ratrace | it's showing text of the url given by external agent |
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| 09:33.32 | oxek | serious question, why would that be a problem? |
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| 09:36.00 | jelly | it would be a problem if the function was printf-like and took a format. If it takes a string it's safer. |
| 09:36.17 | ratrace | there once existed a SELinux CVE where teh attacker could trigger a denial which in itself wasn't an issue. only when the admin looked at it with setroubleshoot, where the actual vuln was, the system could be exploited |
| 09:36.41 | ratrace | any external input could be used in any number of unexpected ways, if bugs exist. never use unsanitized inputs, ever. |
| 09:37.33 | ratrace | similarly there are xss attacks against web systems that log errors. the vuln is in the part where the admin looks at the logs through the UI. |
| 09:38.22 | oxek | aren't you gonna end with an "infinity" problem that the function that sanitizes untrusted input is actually handling untrusted input? |
| 09:38.45 | ratrace | I've just grown an allergy to unsanitized input use, over the years :) |
| 09:39.26 | ratrace | oxek: that wasn't unheard of :) |
| 09:39.27 | oxek | I'm the same, just wondering if there's something I don't know about passing strings into a QT message box. |
| 09:40.43 | ratrace | oxek: strings don't really exist in C. Even in C++, strings are basically pointers wrapped in a class. "strings" in C(++) are an unending source of vulns, history has shown. |
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| 09:41.32 | ratrace | especially lovely when they're stored on stack, like msgBox is :) |
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| 09:42.35 | ratrace | and to me, it's really insane to actually log and display to the user, a string you actually found illegal and are blocking. that's like.... ironic code is ironic. |
| 09:43.33 | oxek | you're right. Thank's for explaining. |
| 09:45.07 | ratrace | and while on offtopic of vulns, we haven't heard the last of Baron Samedit. new CVEs to follow. |
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| 09:47.41 | oxek | I've read it a few times that sudo likely has lots of undiscovered issues |
| 09:47.49 | oxek | but what could we replace sudo with? |
| 09:47.58 | oxek | it's such an integral piece of any linux system nowadays |
| 09:48.51 | oxek | and I'm definitely not gonna write code that deals with delegating root privileges. |
| 09:49.02 | oxek | probably very few people would want to write such code |
| 09:49.18 | ratrace | see that's the problem these days. "replace with". NOTHING. any replacement, if written from scratch, is a pile of NEW bugs, SOME of which are reinvented again |
| 09:49.43 | ratrace | what we do need, is fix sudo/broken code. not rewrite anew. doas and friends are knee jerk reactions that, ironically, had CVEs of their own. Har har har. Har. |
| 09:49.43 | oxek | but replacing stuff means it can be written in a memory-safe language instead, thus eliminating an entire class of security bugs |
| 09:51.07 | ratrace | new things, new functions can be written in memory safe langs. for existing code, if it ain't broken, don't fix it. if it is, fix it, don't rewrite from scracth, unless the code is really so buggy and broken and it doesn't matter |
| 09:51.16 | ratrace | (sudo ain't in that class, btw) |
| 09:54.59 | jelly | would you say openssl was in that class |
| 09:55.08 | oxek | sudo should indeed be old enough to not have any massive issues in it anymore, but openssl would be a good counterexample |
| 09:55.20 | oxek | I don't have anything against sudo personally |
| 09:55.25 | oxek | or openssl |
| 09:55.28 | oxek | I use both |
| 09:55.29 | jelly | old != sane |
| 09:55.50 | oxek | true |
| 09:56.06 | jelly | see also: gnupg. screen, probably. |
| 09:56.34 | azeem | gnupg is being rewritten in rust by the sequoia team |
| 09:56.34 | ratrace | jelly: probably not. it has been looked at extensively since 2014, a bunch of CVEs were ferreted out with all those audits, and openssl is now back to quiescent state. |
| 09:56.58 | oxek | makes me wonder why libressl still exists then |
| 09:57.04 | azeem | also, libressl seems to have quieted down again |
| 09:57.05 | azeem | heh |
| 09:57.16 | ratrace | oxek: because it's another knee jerk reaction |
| 09:57.24 | jelly | ratrace, it's still horrible. |
| 09:57.50 | jelly | oxek, or boringsll? |
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| 09:57.57 | oxek | boringssl is dead |
| 09:58.05 | oxek | google has that tinc or tink thing now |
| 09:58.11 | ratrace | boring, polar, amazon's, libre, open. |
| 09:59.32 | ratrace | problem with crypto is that even if you rewrite in in memory-safe langs, the code conceptually is such that logical bugs could exist that have nothing to do with memory safety. wrong bit in a wrong place turning sha1024-rust into sha1-bit-rust-herp-derp-we-borked-it |
| 09:59.41 | jelly | polar is a different lib I think |
| 10:00.23 | ratrace | let's not forget what debian did to openssl a buncha years back and reduced the keysize from billions to 64k :) because someone cleaned up code. wasn't memory safety bug. it was a logical error. |
| 10:00.42 | jelly | !dsa1571 |
| 10:00.42 | dpkg | Due to a weakness in a random number generator, keys generated after 2006-09-17 (using openssl 0.9.8c-1 and later) need to be regenerated with a newer openssl (at least 0.9.8c-4etch3). See http://www.debian.org/security/2008/dsa-1571 http://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys . Updated openssh packages that check for weak keys are also available. Ask me about <ssl update><dsa1576><ssh-vulnkey><dsa1571 jokes> |
| 10:01.06 | ratrace | !dsa1571 jokes |
| 10:01.07 | dpkg | For some light relief between changing your keys, see http://xkcd.com/221/ http://picpaste.com/glasbergen_-_new_encryption_code.gif, or http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2996/pmeo9hcjp7aw9.jpg, or http://xkcd.com/424/, or http://www.random.org/analysis/dilbert.jpg |
| 10:01.12 | *** join/#debian zamnedix (~zamnedix@zamnedix.net) |
| 10:01.24 | oxek | well I just learned that openssl 3.0 will be apache 2.0 licensed, so no more openssl exception needed |
| 10:01.34 | oxek | should also make it nicer for debian |
| 10:04.24 | ratrace | DFSG-hypocrisy-1.0 clause could be finally removed. |
| 10:05.08 | ratrace | but wait, if openssl could do it..... maybe OpenZFS could too! |
| 10:05.19 | jelly | .pal ratrace |
| 10:05.23 | ratrace | !pal jelly |
| 10:05.24 | dpkg | points at jelly and laughs |
| 10:05.42 | jelly | curses! |
| 10:06.36 | ratrace | this just felt like a gun duel in a wild west flick, and I was faster. this time. *spits* *staggers off into the bar* |
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| 10:11.45 | oxek | I still don't know how ubuntu gets away with including openzfs by default |
| 10:12.42 | jelly | they haff lawyers. Well it's UK. They have uh, solicitors? |
| 10:12.52 | jelly | ¯\_(ã)_/¯ |
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| 10:13.13 | oxek | but if it's ok for ubuntu, and they are not being sued out of existence, then it should be ok for debian |
| 10:13.15 | ratrace | oxek: because that's not violating the license |
| 10:13.26 | ratrace | they're not redistributing linux source code with zfs in it |
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| 10:14.36 | ratrace | they're merely building a .ko and packaging it in a .deb |
| 10:14.54 | ratrace | same as nvidia and nobody complained about that one |
| 10:15.00 | jelly | oxek, Debian can't rely on "should be ok" |
| 10:15.25 | ratrace | DFSG is a bit too purist for my taste |
| 10:15.36 | jelly | and things in US where SPI is are different from UK where Canonical is. |
| 10:15.40 | jelly | !spi |
| 10:15.40 | dpkg | Software in the Public Interest (SPI) is the umbrella organization for Debian and other Free Software projects. http://www.spi-inc.org/ |
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| 10:22.05 | themill | zfs problems have nothing to do with the DFSG. There is no clause in the DFSG that says that you can't do this. Both CDDL and GPL-2 are perfectly fine licences according to the DFSG. |
| 10:23.37 | jelly | but you have to store them separately as two components, and mix right before use |
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| 10:25.38 | jelly | ,v zfs-dkms |
| 10:25.40 | judd | Package: zfs-dkms on amd64 -- stretch/contrib: 0.6.5.9-5; stretch-backports/contrib: 0.7.12-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1; buster/contrib: 0.7.12-2+deb10u2; stretch-backports-sloppy/contrib: 0.7.13-1~bpo9+1; buster-backports/contrib: 0.8.6-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/contrib: 2.0.2-1; sid/contrib: 2.0.3-1 |
| 10:25.57 | oxek | contrib |
| 10:26.17 | oxek | implies not fully fine in the eyes of dfsg |
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| 10:27.39 | jelly | ,v spl-dkms |
| 10:27.40 | judd | Package: spl-dkms on amd64 -- stretch: 0.6.5.9-1; stretch-backports: 0.7.12-2~bpo9+1; buster: 0.7.12-2+deb10u1; stretch-backports-sloppy: 0.7.13-1~bpo9+1; buster-backports/contrib: 0.8.6-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/contrib: 2.0.2-1; sid/contrib: 2.0.3-1 |
| 10:27.50 | jelly | ^ sometimes main, sometimes contrib! |
| 10:28.39 | aminvakil | i'm facing an odd issue from yesterday and i can't find out how can i fix it |
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| 10:28.57 | aminvakil | i'm testing an ansible role using molecule on github actions against debian 10 |
| 10:29.05 | aminvakil | the role is installing mariadb on it |
| 10:29.28 | aminvakil | role works fine when i play it against a virtual machine, molecule also works correctly when i run it locally |
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| 10:29.44 | aminvakil | but when i run it in github actions, after mariadb installation it gets stuck on reloading |
| 10:29.47 | aminvakil | https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1902508207?check_suite_focus=true |
| 10:30.12 | aminvakil | mariadb-server cannot be started |
| 10:30.45 | ratrace | themill: so technically, the license doesn't prevent Debian from building and distributing zfs .ko packages? |
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| 10:32.42 | jelly | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:32.42 | jelly | 228 |
| 10:32.42 | jelly | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:32.43 | jelly | 229 |
| 10:32.55 | jelly | why was I not kicked! |
| 10:33.14 | aminvakil | that's because mariadb is not started i suppose |
| 10:33.18 | jelly | aminvakil, ^ that's what seems to fail |
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| 10:33.47 | aminvakil | https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1899308773?check_suite_focus=true |
| 10:34.04 | aminvakil | here i just executed "systemctl start mysqld" and after 15 min it timed out |
| 10:34.26 | themill | /kick jelly |
| 10:34.49 | aminvakil | in the log you're referring to i execute "journalctl -n 100 | cat" to see if i can find anything in journal and i saw mariadb stuck in reloading after it is installed |
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| 10:35.55 | themill | dpkg, pal jelly |
| 10:35.55 | dpkg | points at jelly and laughs uproariously |
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| 10:40.02 | ratrace | shoulda temporarily banned him after kick, for moar laughs :) |
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| 10:56.12 | RoyK | hm... [Tue Feb 9 14:54:03 2021] sd 0:0:1:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through <-- Any idea why it would assume this? it's Dell storage behind vmware http://paste.debian.net/1185544/ |
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| 10:59.26 | ratrace | the storage driver is reporting writethrough cache maybe? |
| 11:02.29 | ratrace | is *not reporting |
| 11:02.41 | koollman | RoyK: basically, it means it could not find out disk type when sending a scsi command to find out about cache. But it's optimistic and decide to use cache through. It's not a problem |
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| 11:16.14 | Lope | What is a good choice for a github style web interface for a self-hosted git repo that requires minimal setup? |
| 11:16.24 | aminvakil | it seems that my problem is related to apparmor: https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1902796619?check_suite_focus=true#step:5:224 |
| 11:16.24 | Lope | I was looking at gogs and gitea |
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| 11:17.31 | JackFrost | Gitea is a fork of gogs, does the latter still exist? |
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| 11:23.05 | hwm4rgs | gitea's a sane choice |
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| 11:30.22 | Lope | hwm4rgs, yeah I see gitea has an IRC channel and discord that's active. Got a few questions answered quite quickly. |
| 11:30.49 | Lope | also gogs's documentation is very incomplete, whereas gitea's seems to be thorough and even has a cheatsheet. |
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| 11:31.19 | Lope | JackFrost, seems like a more apt question is "does the former still exist?" |
| 11:31.36 | Lope | Oh sorry, you mentioned gogs after gitea haha |
| 11:31.48 | Lope | yeah just got wires crossed cos gogs was the original. |
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| 11:32.16 | hwm4rgs | gogs is sort of a dead project and it left a bad taste in my mouth when they wouldn't fix the cookie XSS vulnerability they had (have?) |
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| 11:32.39 | hwm4rgs | activity is why gitea was created in the first place |
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| 11:39.04 | aminvakil | apparmor is not installed, but i still get apparmor denied log in journalctl: https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1902939054?check_suite_focus=true#step:5:228 |
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| 11:57.02 | cadmio | Hello |
| 11:57.04 | cadmio | on my monitor I can see some white stripes moving downward |
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| 12:07.43 | ratrace | I guess the stripes reached the network cable. |
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| 12:19.21 | RoyK | koollman: it'll reduce the disk write speed rather a lot, though |
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| 12:25.52 | koollman | RoyK: does it ? I mean, did you measure that in some way ? |
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| 12:29.02 | koollman | RoyK: it could be intentional. For example, it is the mode used for battery-backed units on raid cards, for example. Since it is assumed the controller take care of things without the OS knowledge (so 'direct' writes are effectively cached by the storage backend doing writeback, thus additional cache in front would be wasted) |
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| 12:37.21 | koollman | RoyK: if it's not performing as expected, I assume you can ask vmware/dell why it is that way, or if you're missing some VAAI or some setting on vm disks or vmfs |
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| 12:39.28 | oxek | jelly: I'm not familiar with what spl-dkms is, but it is now a transitional package that depends on zfs-dkms, which has always been in contrib and not main. |
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| 12:40.42 | SanchoPensa | hey, guys! |
| 12:40.42 | SanchoPensa | As of late my /boot partition keeps running out of space, when Debian updates the Kernel, which is why I am in the process of creating a Live stick, in order to be able to resize my partitions. |
| 12:41.05 | oxek | SanchoPensa: it's a known issue that the default size for /boot partition is too small in debian |
| 12:41.20 | phogg | if you used LVM resizing /boot is easy, if you didn't it's not |
| 12:41.35 | oxek | it will get bigger on new installations of bullseye (and likely even larger once again when bullseye++ comes along) |
| 12:41.40 | SanchoPensa | I have just completed copying the image with gnome-disk-utility to a USB stick. |
| 12:42.03 | SanchoPensa | ist that going to boot, or do I have to explicitly copy the image with dd? |
| 12:42.26 | oxek | (btw, do we know the name of debian version after bullseye?) |
| 12:42.44 | SanchoPensa | oxek: phogg: ya well, no worries there, I know, how to help myself with gparted |
| 12:43.01 | phogg | oxek: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases but you can always set bullseye+1 and be understood |
| 12:43.11 | SanchoPensa | problem is, you cannot resize partitions, while they are mounted, which is, why I need to boot with a stick |
| 12:43.18 | phogg | s/set/say/ |
| 12:43.32 | oxek | phogg: unfortunately I am still banned from reading the debian wiki :( |
| 12:43.42 | phogg | oxek: how? |
| 12:44.05 | SanchoPensa | oxek: phogg: hehe thanks, guys, but your answers kinda miss my point... |
| 12:44.06 | oxek | phogg: the wiki bans massive blocks of IP addresses, and doesn't let people even read. I just get 403 forbidden |
| 12:44.16 | oxek | it's a known issue |
| 12:44.30 | phogg | oxek: well then FYI the answer is bookworm |
| 12:44.40 | SanchoPensa | :D |
| 12:44.46 | oxek | bookworm. Thank you. |
| 12:44.54 | SanchoPensa | :D |
| 12:45.20 | oxek | SanchoPensa: depending on which image you want to boot, using `dd` or `gnome-disk-utility` will both create a bootable usb stick. |
| 12:45.58 | oxek | since you're having issues with the size of /boot, it's likely you left it all at default during installation, which means it would not be part of LVM |
| 12:46.11 | SanchoPensa | oxek: I used a live image from here: http://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/ |
| 12:46.40 | SanchoPensa | oxek: thanks a lot, in that case I will be as audacious as to reboot now... :D |
| 12:46.42 | oxek | SanchoPensa: that should work |
| 12:46.51 | SanchoPensa | nice! |
| 12:46.52 | oxek | before you reboot |
| 12:46.55 | oxek | do you have backups? |
| 12:46.57 | SanchoPensa | yes? |
| 12:47.05 | SanchoPensa | well... sort of... |
| 12:47.10 | oxek | do backups first |
| 12:47.23 | SanchoPensa | I do, however, have my data on a seperate /home partition. |
| 12:47.39 | oxek | you're resizing partitions. That's how /home can get messed up |
| 12:47.46 | SanchoPensa | So, everything I could potentially lose, are years of configuring my os... |
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| 12:48.18 | oxek | so practically many wasted hours of trying to reconfigure everything back |
| 12:48.26 | oxek | do a backup |
| 12:48.33 | SanchoPensa | oxek: well... I have resized about a gazillion partitions so far, and has never happened yet... |
| 12:48.56 | oxek | up to you, I just wanted to state the official warning |
| 12:49.18 | EdePopede | it always happens the n+1th time :) |
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| 12:49.36 | SanchoPensa | oxek: duly noted and very much appreciated! |
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| 12:50.32 | SanchoPensa | tinkering, thanks, guys! |
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| 14:43.53 | SanchoPensa | back |
| 14:44.26 | SanchoPensa | I am having quite the issues with attempting to resize a LVM2 volume from a live stick |
| 14:44.54 | SanchoPensa | I tried to install lvm2, but got ann error message stating that -.mount is masked. |
| 14:45.02 | SanchoPensa | what ever does that mean? |
| 14:45.16 | SanchoPensa | oxek: still there? |
| 14:45.30 | greycat | -.mount is systemd's reference to the root file system, I believe |
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| 14:47.22 | SanchoPensa | greycat: ok? how is this gonna help me? :D |
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| 14:48.52 | ratrace | it would appear that the "live stick" is perhaps not the best rescue environment |
| 14:49.06 | apollo13 | grml ftw |
| 14:49.55 | ratrace | ubuntu iso is what I use. gots ZFS and can apt install stuffs and is fully functional |
| 14:49.56 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: what are you suggesting? |
| 14:50.13 | SanchoPensa | oh! |
| 14:51.44 | ratrace | actually... I also got a full debian installation on an external drive which I use for rescuing. it's a thing I made few days ago, seems like I forgot I have it. but before that, I used the ubuntu ISO |
| 14:51.46 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: but in principle to be able to rescue a system would be the primary purpose of the live stick, right? |
| 14:52.00 | SanchoPensa | do you think, there is an issue with the debian live stick version? |
| 14:52.15 | ratrace | SanchoPensa: not necessarily. a "rescue" environment has all the tools |
| 14:52.39 | ratrace | if you needed to apt install lvm2, then that's not a suitable rescue env |
| 14:53.02 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: I am btw not really attempting to rescue the system, since there is nothing wrong with it. Except the fact, that my /bootpartition runs out of space on every kernel update... |
| 14:53.15 | ratrace | SanchoPensa: yes, I think there is. it's also not recommended for installation, something about its installer being off? |
| 14:53.42 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: oops... that's bad... |
| 14:53.50 | ratrace | SanchoPensa: having a full rescue tool available JustInCase(tm) is wise. For that one time in many years when it happens |
| 14:54.08 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: fully agree! |
| 14:54.14 | oxek | if one does not wish to create a personalized iso (and maintain it), is Grml the best option? |
| 14:54.19 | ratrace | there's dedicated distros for that (the abovementioned grml, and sysrescuecd), or you can build your own |
| 14:54.26 | SanchoPensa | ratrace: and your weapon of choice for that purpose is Ubuntu...? |
| 14:54.39 | ratrace | SanchoPensa: yes but now I have a full debian installation on an external usb disk |
| 14:55.05 | ratrace | ubuntu live ISO is fully apt-installable and functional. if you don't wanna botehr with a DIY solution, I'd recommend teh 'buntu |
| 14:55.17 | SanchoPensa | oh! that grml comment was for me, thanks apollo13 |
| 14:55.23 | SanchoPensa | never heard of it so far... |
| 14:55.38 | SanchoPensa | i see... |
| 14:55.55 | oxek | I once tried a ubuntu iso for rescue. It immediatelly started downloading gigabytes of data to update the snap applications, ran out of RAM and crashed. It's not supposed to happen, snap is set to delay updating by 45 days, but the system time was off by a lot and once fixed, snap started updating. |
| 14:55.56 | SanchoPensa | what ever happened to supergrubcd...? :D |
| 14:56.15 | SanchoPensa | lol |
| 14:56.45 | SanchoPensa | Well, I basically don't really care what to use, as long as it works... |
| 14:56.49 | oxek | whoever thought making it impossible to disable snap autoupdates should be excommunicated from the community |
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| 14:58.27 | SanchoPensa | :D |
| 14:58.57 | SanchoPensa | whoever builds kernel images, that bust the size of /boot too! :-X |
| 15:01.08 | oxek | before the buster release, I said that the default /boot size was too small. But there was no way for me to reach the relevant people. |
| 15:01.11 | ratrace | oxek: agreed about snapd autoupdates. the ONE thing that blows the entire framework and tool. |
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| 15:02.26 | oxek | ratrace: exactly. snap is really nice with the enable/disable app, revert, save/restore/forget snapshots, and so on |
| 15:02.36 | oxek | but the autoupdates by default, with no way off, kill it for me |
| 15:03.21 | oxek | (you can disable them by disabling&stopping the snap service and socket, but then you lose all the actually good things about snap) |
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| 15:05.31 | oxek | and then you have the whole thing of ubuntu trying to create it's own walled garden by distributing lxd & multipass only as snap |
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| 15:06.22 | jelly | oxek, there are people inside Canonical unhappy with that as well, so we'll see how far that gets them |
| 15:06.46 | jelly | lxd as snapd is just icing on the cake |
| 15:07.02 | jelly | beefcake. |
| 15:07.13 | wsky | beefcake! |
| 15:09.12 | oxek | I really like that debian still seems to be on the side of the users. There was that brief issue with systemd, but honestly debian had no option than to go with it, because systemd is everywhere |
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| 15:12.10 | jelly | other options are a lot of work, and if noone's going to do the work... |
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| 15:12.23 | jelly | even this option was a lot of work |
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| 15:19.31 | SanchoPensa | that grml distro seems to make a lot of sense! |
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| 15:23.07 | istrive | hello all! Good Morning... |
| 15:23.19 | SanchoPensa | hey there, istrive! |
| 15:23.20 | wsky | good morning! |
| 15:24.37 | istrive | I am stroggling to force the system wait until the script finishes running BEFORE shutdown... I curretly have the script as a service from systemd but after testing it did not finishe and the system rebooted anyway! |
| 15:25.17 | wsky | just add sleep to the code |
| 15:25.34 | wsky | or stop using it |
| 15:27.13 | istrive | it has sleep, and works flowlessly from cmd but not when the system reboots |
| 15:27.32 | istrive | something is not right with the service configuration or requirements.... |
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| 15:27.55 | wsky | so the script you adited isn't being executed |
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| 15:28.02 | wsky | edited* |
| 15:28.17 | wsky | so again |
| 15:28.23 | wsky | what are you trying to achieve |
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| 15:29.08 | istrive | here is the patebin of the code |
| 15:29.09 | istrive | https://pastebin.com/gEwhJv8A |
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| 15:29.44 | wsky | i can not help you with this, ask someone else |
| 15:30.17 | greycat | We hate it when people answer "what are you trying to do" with "here is my broken code, you can just reverse engineer it and try to guess what I wanted it to do" |
| 15:30.22 | istrive | and I enabled it with a service: https://pastebin.com/Sd6WZtzz |
| 15:30.24 | wsky | i see you're trying to launch vbox on boot |
| 15:31.08 | istrive | I am trying to shutdown them properly at reboot/shutdown from host! |
| 15:31.23 | wsky | you should send them shutdown signal |
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| 15:31.36 | wsky | with the "kill" command |
| 15:31.47 | wsky | and wait until they stop |
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| 15:32.38 | istrive | that's why I said the script works flawlessly from cmd, but it NOT doing it from the service before shutdown.... |
| 15:32.52 | istrive | the system is not waiting it to complete |
| 15:33.18 | wsky | you could hold te system untill the shutdown finishes |
| 15:33.33 | istrive | there is nothing wrong whit the code itself |
| 15:33.43 | istrive | That's my ultimate goal! |
| 15:34.00 | istrive | the million dollar question is HOW? ;) |
| 15:34.02 | wsky | tbh |
| 15:34.20 | wsky | i don't precisely know how to help you ;/ |
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| 15:34.45 | wsky | you should wait in the systemd script untill it finishes |
| 15:34.47 | istrive | at least you are honest to report it back, I appreciate it! |
| 15:34.56 | wsky | systemd should work untill scripts finish |
| 15:35.28 | istrive | I enabled it with systemctl already |
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| 15:36.00 | wsky | well continue |
| 15:36.01 | istrive | unless the service is misconfigured there is nothing else I could possible check (AFAIK) |
| 15:36.08 | greycat | https://serverfault.com/questions/904346/wait-for-service-to-gracefully-exit-before-machine-shutdown-reboot |
| 15:36.43 | wsky | hey, greycat seems to have a solution |
| 15:36.57 | greycat | I has a browser that can talk to google |
| 15:37.21 | wsky | google sux ;f |
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| 15:37.25 | wsky | ddg! |
| 15:37.32 | istrive | TY greycat, I will take a look at this |
| 15:38.17 | EdePopede | «I have a service that takes 10 seconds to shut down» - i just hope (and guess) services are more reliable then GUI crap. (namely modern browsers which may need minutes to finish after a few days of usage, usually crashing at the end) |
| 15:38.36 | istrive | I doubt anyone that when asked something gives a gazillion possibilities as the answer! ;) |
| 15:38.45 | wsky | vbox can run in gui or no |
| 15:39.04 | wsky | any way it will take some time to freeze the memory |
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| 15:39.29 | istrive | the vms are unattended and runn in the background (win svr 2012r2) |
| 15:39.54 | EdePopede | i'm concernd more about what's running inside it. it's a stack, clean it from top to bottom. and hope there's not a single layer which just refuses to die in dignity ;) |
| 15:40.55 | istrive | this is just to shutdown the servers properly... I don't know why VirtualBox made it so hard... Hyper-V has a much better handling of this task! |
| 15:40.55 | wsky | >; |
| 15:41.18 | EdePopede | there's alwys kill -15 ;) |
| 15:41.20 | EdePopede | runs and hides |
| 15:41.38 | wsky | teams up with a wolf pack and crows to search for EdePopede |
| 15:42.12 | EdePopede | gets some oak poles and just for the case also a box of silver bullets |
| 15:42.31 | wsky | happens to not be a vampire |
| 15:42.46 | wsky | yet |
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| 15:44.03 | EdePopede | ah, good to know. anyway, systemd and termination, i'm not sure about it anymore after the mess that's left behind after i logout from the desktop session on the test install of buster on the other pc. |
| 15:44.45 | greycat | EdePopede: if the systemd default timeout (90 seconds?) is too short, I'm pretty sure you can supply a longer timeout in your service definition |
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| 15:46.03 | EdePopede | greycat: ah thanks, good idea. it's just a plain installation with everything selected (all servers, all desktops...) where i'm looking at the different UIs i can use. no manual system wide changes, and the user profile is recreated for every run. |
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| 16:00.29 | yogoyo | !botsnack |
| 16:00.29 | dpkg | thanks, yogoyo |
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| 16:01.04 | neilthereildeil | hey guys |
| 16:01.18 | neilthereildeil | for some reason i get a kernel panic when i boot init=/bin/bash |
| 16:01.56 | neilthereildeil | "not syncing: attempted to kill init" |
| 16:02.01 | neilthereildeil | how can i fix this? |
| 16:02.21 | H4ndy | Is there a way to debug apt pins? |
| 16:02.36 | H4ndy | I defined a origin for a specific package but it's still pulling it from the default repo |
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| 16:03.17 | koollman | neilthereildeil: no root device detected, most likely. You can try adding : rootdelay=30 (or some larger number), but first make sure you didn't remove stuff that would have helped find the correct root device |
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| 16:03.48 | neilthereildeil | FYI there was HEAVY IO load on this server before it crashed... |
| 16:06.53 | neilthereildeil | hmm even with rootdelay=30, it crashed |
| 16:07.29 | yogoyo | neilthereildeil: time for a livecd so you can chroot in |
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| 16:07.54 | jelly | neilthereildeil, is there a different kernel to try booting |
| 16:08.04 | neilthereildeil | no i only have 1 |
| 16:08.11 | neilthereildeil | but its been working this whole time |
| 16:08.18 | wsky | i think 5.10 is the main one for bullseye |
| 16:08.21 | neilthereildeil | it woulnt be a software issue... |
| 16:08.27 | jelly | next time have two kernels. :-) |
| 16:09.01 | jelly | by far the most common cause is broken initramfs image, for whatever reason |
| 16:09.07 | neilthereildeil | hmmm |
| 16:09.19 | neilthereildeil | i didnt update any software on this server |
| 16:09.30 | jelly | it's not usual that disks randomly disappears |
| 16:09.41 | neilthereildeil | ya in checking RAID controller |
| 16:09.45 | neilthereildeil | im |
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| 16:20.36 | jelly | H4ndy, "apt-cache policy packagename" |
| 16:20.56 | jelly | will show priorities and chosen Candidate |
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| 16:22.12 | H4ndy | jelly: perfect, just what I needed <3 |
| 16:22.21 | H4ndy | (found the issue right away with that) |
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| 17:34.58 | urk | I am on a new Dell XPS, and want to make a boot stick for Debian Linux Stable. Am I at the right URL? https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ I was hoping to have just one install disk, and don't know what to do with the 3 isos. My tiny boot stick is 256 GB. |
| 17:35.05 | urk | Also, I am on IRC for the web. |
| 17:35.26 | jelly | urk, is this a laptop? |
| 17:35.35 | urk | yes |
| 17:36.09 | jelly | you'll probably want to to use an image with firmware included, else wifi is not likely to work out of the box |
| 17:36.15 | jelly | !firmware images |
| 17:36.15 | dpkg | There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ The images are "unofficial" because "official Debian" includes only 100% free software. They are otherwise identical to the normal installer images and prepared by the same Debian Developers. See <check iso>. |
| 17:36.40 | urk | jelly> Does that mean I need the unofficial version? |
| 17:36.49 | jelly | yes |
| 17:37.16 | jelly | netinst is enough if you have internet access at installation itme |
| 17:37.35 | urk | jelly> I have internet access. |
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| 17:38.14 | urk | My employer bought this computer for me so I can work from home, but they let me choose which one to get. The screen is amazingly bright. My only gripe is no numeric keypad, but I knew about that before I got it. |
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| 17:39.20 | urk | I want to make a Debian boot stick in case I ever need to install from a stick in the future, or repair something. |
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| 17:40.05 | urk | I assume this one is correct https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/ |
| 17:40.52 | urk | There are a lot of options https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/ |
| 17:41.17 | jelly | yes, that's why dpkg the bot pointed to the iso-cd directory |
| 17:41.36 | jelly | you pick the first iso there |
| 17:42.02 | jelly | and put it onto the whole stick |
| 17:43.32 | urk | What is the difference between the one that says edu, and the one that does not say edu https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ ??? |
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| 17:47.03 | urk | Does edu have more packages? If so, then what? |
| 17:49.42 | urk | Its so quiet in here. I'm getting lonely : ( |
| 17:54.00 | Mister00X | urk: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/ |
| 17:55.39 | urk | Mister00X> What are you saying about https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/ ? |
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| 17:56.43 | Mister00X | urk: you asked what the difference is. The edu one contains the Debian pure blend DebianEdu |
| 17:57.12 | urk | How easy is it to remove the Education Packages if I decide to get rid of them? |
| 17:57.48 | Mister00X | urk: remove the meta-package of debian edu and run an autoremove, I guess |
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| 17:57.54 | urk | I guess I could add them later. I think for now I will just go with the standard. |
| 17:57.57 | urk | Thanks. |
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| 18:20.44 | srged | My canon printer prints out blank pages. I am using CUPS. WWhat could it be? (the scanner prints out just fine, so the ink is good) |
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| 18:25.16 | urk | This doesn't seem like the right URL for burning a bootable memory stick https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ Do I have the right one? I downloaded the files, but there is no ISO, and the files are all individual. |
| 18:26.42 | Mister00X | urk: there is the file with the .iso ending which is the iso |
| 18:26.59 | greycat | there are literally two .iso files in the directory you just linked to |
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| 18:28.16 | jmd | So I have just installed a fresh copy of buster. Now how do I set up wifi networking? |
| 18:30.13 | Mister00X | jmd: did you used an official or unofficial image also what desktop environment did you choose? |
| 18:30.49 | jmd | An official one; none |
| 18:31.28 | jmd | (I can't imagine why the desktop would be relevant) |
| 18:33.09 | Mister00X | jmd: you can use nmtui or nmcli for that |
| 18:33.10 | jmd | Ok. How do I install it? |
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| 18:33.13 | greycat | They asked about the desktop environment because for most people, the tools for setting up wireless networking come with the desktop. Relatively few people use lower level stuff, but it exists. |
| 18:33.13 | greycat | !wifi |
| 18:33.13 | dpkg | Support for your wireless LAN device is dependent on the chipset within. Don't know what you have? Ask me about <what's my wireless>. Atheros: <atheros>; Atmel: <atmel>; Broadcom: <broadcom>; Intel: <intel>; Intersil: <prism>; Marvell: <marvell>; Ralink: <ralink>; Realtek: <realtek>; TI: <acx-mac80211>; VIA: <vt665x>; ZyDAS: <zydas>. See also <crda>, <killswitch>, <wpa>. http://wiki.debian.org/WiFi |
| 18:33.23 | greycat | I believe there's a subpage of http://wiki.debian.org/WiFi that goes into details on some of the terminal-based options. |
| 18:33.33 | jmd | Yeah I installed the driver. |
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| 18:34.48 | jmd | Mister00X: According to apt-cache, there is no such package as nmcli nor nmtui |
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| 18:35.01 | Mister00X | jmd: its called network-manager |
| 18:35.37 | jmd | Oh right. |
| 18:35.38 | Mister00X | but the commands are called nmtui and nmcli |
| 18:35.43 | phogg | You can do it without network manager if you want. It's more work. |
| 18:35.48 | greycat | ,file bin/nmcli |
| 18:35.54 | judd | Search for bin/nmcli in buster/amd64: network-manager: usr/bin/nmcli |
| 18:36.08 | jmd | So how do I install it (given that I don't have networking yet)? |
| 18:36.33 | greycat | If it's not on your installation CD, then you sneakernet it. |
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| 18:36.44 | greycat | Or you plug in an ethernet cable temporarily. |
| 18:36.49 | ratrace | I think it'd be easier and faster if you reinstalled from the nonfree firmware iso so you get it set up by the installer |
| 18:37.21 | jmd | ratrace: I've installed the firmware. That is not an issue. |
| 18:37.39 | ratrace | otherwise you'd have to hunt down all the debs and dependency debs and firmware debs and whatnot debs and sneakernet them in, as greycat suggested |
| 18:38.07 | greycat | is it really not on the installer that you used? |
| 18:38.08 | ratrace | jmd: what was the installation iso, cd? dvd? netinst (probs not if you don't have teh nets)? |
| 18:38.43 | jmd | It was the netinst dvd image. That is supposed to magically install everything that is needed. |
| 18:39.13 | greycat | It installs what you request. And I would be really shocked if network-manager is not on it. Just use it. |
| 18:39.33 | greycat | If you installed without network, then it should have set up sources.list to use the installer CD. |
| 18:40.09 | srged | guys, why is my printer printing blank pages while the scanner works just fine? (PS. tonner refilled, led is blinking. yet the scanner works fine) |
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| 18:42.31 | ratrace | jmd: do you have the package wpasupplicant installed? |
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| 18:43.11 | ratrace | srged: probably encrypted, so it's printing with invisible ink. I mean... you asked THAT kind of question, you got THAT kind of answer :) |
| 18:45.47 | srged | ratrace: i mean maybe its because of CUPS ? |
| 18:46.15 | jmd | ratrace: yes |
| 18:47.00 | ratrace | jmd: then this is simplest thing to get net going, and instll whatever higher level tool you want. https://bpa.st/MZJQ |
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| 18:48.56 | ratrace | srged: for starters, the printer and scanner are served by different subsystems, even if they're the same physical device. one working doesn't mean the other would. |
| 18:49.29 | ratrace | so yes, I'd look at cups and its logs and/or config to see where the problem might be. |
| 18:49.54 | ratrace | srged: you can access http://localhost:631, login as root, and see diagnostics and/or enable the driver, etc... |
| 18:52.14 | srged | ratrace: the error log is blank |
| 18:55.49 | jmd | ratrace: Thanks. With a bit of modification, that worked. |
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| 18:56.37 | jmd | (but /me is amazed that the netinstall disk won't do that for me! - what does the "netinstall" mean?) |
| 18:57.29 | wsky | netinstall is the most minimal debian run disk |
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| 18:58.14 | wsky | it is about dumping the most mnimal debian os to the hdd and possibli fetch some extra stuff from the net |
| 18:58.27 | wsky | possibly* |
| 18:58.37 | jmd | Yeah. But it seems that last step it doesn't do. |
| 18:58.45 | AlexHMusique | the most minimal installation is via debootstrap |
| 18:59.16 | wsky | if you want debian offline get the full dvd set |
| 18:59.37 | ratrace | netinst isn't about installing most minimal debian, it's about having the most minimal _installer_ that then goes out to fetch the packages online |
| 18:59.43 | jmd | I don't want it offline. |
| 19:00.02 | jmd | ratrace: That's what I thought. |
| 19:00.12 | wsky | then minimal should sound ok |
| 19:00.22 | wsky | if not, get the first dvd |
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| 19:01.17 | donavan01 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 19:02.08 | ratrace | jmd: "amazed that the netinstall disk won't do that for me" .. I think the installer assumes that the default setup, which is gnome desktop, suffices to autoconfigure dhcp with networkmanager, and that's what it does. it also _does_ setup dhcp for the ethernet, but it doesn't set up wifi, that's left for the networkmanager |
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| 19:02.51 | ratrace | jmd: it also assumes that deviation from default predicates experience and skill and setting it up using whatever tool you want. via interfaces(5) like in my paste, via networkd, via nm(cli), wicd, ... |
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| 19:03.24 | ratrace | jmd: and by that does not impose any default setup |
| 19:04.00 | jmd | Well really I don't care what tool it uses. I just expected that after running the installer I would have a working network. |
| 19:04.18 | jmcnaught | donavan01: you have more than one package containing the same file, which generally does not happen on Debian and indeed it appears the offending packages are kali or mxlinux related. If you are using Debian then you should not be using repos for other distros. If you are not using Debian, then you will need to find the appropriate channel for your distro. |
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| 19:04.51 | ratrace | jmd: that's because it doesn't assume which tool you wanna use for tha |
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| 19:05.52 | jmd | well perhaps it could ask and give a number of options. |
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| 19:07.56 | ratrace | perhaps. that requires someone to implement that in the installer. the current state is deemed sufficient: NM by default for default gnome deskop; the rest assumes you're skilled enough to deviate, so you'll set it up yourself. |
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| 19:09.05 | donavan01 | yeah Im running MXlinux but as with literally every distro I have tried over the years besides ubuntu (which I cant stand) and straight Debian which honestly my linux skills arent good enough to just dive in (or at least they werent the last time I tried it )I can never find anyone that actually chats I was in the #linux and was told to come here ... I have installed other programs from other repos could this have caused the issue? |
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| 19:10.17 | wsky | are you asking people to help you with a non-debian system turned into uber-franken-debian? |
| 19:10.33 | wsky | this is out of place |
| 19:10.52 | greycat | !mxlinux |
| 19:10.52 | dpkg | MX Linux is a popular distribution <based on debian>. It is not supported in #debian. Support is available on their forum: https://forum.mxlinux.org/. It is related to <antix>. If you are new to linux, or want a distro with IRC support, try Debian instead: https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian |
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| 19:11.52 | jmcnaught | donavan01: if you install Debian you will definitely not have this specific problem. |
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| 19:12.07 | ratrace | hear, hear! |
| 19:12.19 | ratrace | how to fix MXLinux issues: wipe. install debian. win. |
| 19:12.35 | wsky | just backup the media |
| 19:12.42 | ratrace | right. |
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| 19:24.30 | metbsd | is there armv7 channel |
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| 19:26.25 | istrive | 4n&Tm0N#1! |
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| 19:27.11 | foxide | He's gonna want to change that password. |
| 19:27.31 | aminvakil | i'm sorry i bring this up again, but i can't understand why starting mariadb results in a apparmor deny |
| 19:27.41 | aminvakil | and apparmor is not even installed! |
| 19:27.43 | aminvakil | https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1902939054?check_suite_focus=true#step:5:220 |
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| 19:28.41 | koollman | <PROTECTED> |
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| 19:29.14 | aminvakil | i'm execuing systemctl start mysqld after installing mariadb-server on a clean debian 10 container which also has systemd installed on it |
| 19:29.31 | aminvakil | host is ubuntu 20.04, but i've also tested ubuntu 18.04 and ubuntu 16.04 |
| 19:29.38 | koollman | container. so, host system has apparmor ? |
| 19:29.46 | wsky | have you got the filesystems mounted? |
| 19:29.49 | aminvakil | i'm not sure, maybe? |
| 19:29.56 | koollman | or docker (or whatever you use) has an apparmor profile, maybe |
| 19:29.58 | aminvakil | wsky: not that i know of |
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| 19:30.12 | wsky | how did yu bootstrap that debian system? |
| 19:30.23 | aminvakil | koollman: ah, i don't see this problem on my host which is arch |
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| 19:30.41 | aminvakil | so it could maybe because host has some apparmor profile which restricts container? |
| 19:30.44 | koollman | aminvakil: yes |
| 19:30.56 | foxide | aminvakil: Did you install/configure apparmor on the host? |
| 19:31.03 | foxide | Because Arch does not deploy apparmor by default. |
| 19:31.06 | aminvakil | this is on github actions, i'm not sure |
| 19:31.20 | aminvakil | wsky: molecule |
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| 19:31.42 | ratrace | aminvakil: why do you ask about ubuntu issues in #debian? |
| 19:31.44 | aminvakil | foxide: i should ask this from github guys then. but what i wanted to be sure from this channel was this |
| 19:31.58 | foxide | ratrace: He's not. He's having issues with a buster container. |
| 19:32.00 | ratrace | and what is that paste? I don't see any errors there |
| 19:32.10 | wsky | yeah, your host os seems to be ubuntu |
| 19:32.12 | ratrace | if there are apparmor denials, then apparmor IS installed. |
| 19:32.15 | koollman | aminvakil: I have no idea what molecule is in this context. I assume something on the host side or container runtime is provoking that error, though |
| 19:32.23 | aminvakil | ratrace: i couldn't understand if enabling apparmor on host could bring this up |
| 19:32.30 | wsky | and it seems it's an issue of their |
| 19:32.33 | ratrace | aminvakil: brings _WHAT_ up? |
| 19:32.51 | aminvakil | and i couldn't understand why apparmor appears in journalctl of my buster container when i don't have it installed |
| 19:32.57 | aminvakil | ratrace: https://github.com/aminvakil/ansible-role-mysql_initial/runs/1902939054?check_suite_focus=true#step:5:220 |
| 19:32.58 | ratrace | aminvakil: can you produce a normal pastebin of the denial audit trail? |
| 19:33.16 | aminvakil | ratrace: sure, if you don't have github account i will paste it in paste.debian.org now |
| 19:33.18 | ratrace | what the eff is that link? please show a NORMAL paste with audit trail excerpts |
| 19:33.30 | ratrace | please do that instead of this github crap |
| 19:33.30 | foxide | ratrace: Stop being a jerk. |
| 19:33.34 | aminvakil | ratrace: fine, i will now |
| 19:33.38 | koollman | aminvakil: docker can load a specific apparmor profile, for example. Or you can encounter a host-wide apparmor problem |
| 19:34.00 | koollman | in both cases ... I would say ask whoever can answer you for that system :) |
| 19:34.38 | aminvakil | ratrace: line 487 of https://paste.debian.net/1185613/ |
| 19:35.05 | aminvakil | koollman: thank you very much, i've been on this issue since yesterday and i couldn't realize what's the problem |
| 19:35.05 | ratrace | aminvakil: that's host's logs? |
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| 19:35.36 | aminvakil | ratrace: i can't access host logs, this is what i have from running molecule test on a buster container |
| 19:35.58 | aminvakil | i think i know where should i go and ask now, won't bother this channel anymore |
| 19:36.01 | aminvakil | ratrace: take it easy |
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| 19:36.37 | ratrace | aminvakil: if that's a container, then probably there's no control over the AA policy, and you can't have one defined from _within_ it afaik |
| 19:37.10 | aminvakil | ratrace: i think i should look and bother github guys for this issue then |
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| 19:37.34 | aminvakil | it seems that apparmor log which appears in buster container that doesn't have apparmor installed is coming from ubuntu host which has some apparmor profile enabled |
| 19:37.41 | ratrace | aminvakil: yeah and if there's AA policy on the host, it has to account for full paths into the container, this trail doesn't seem to show it |
| 19:37.42 | aminvakil | if i understood correctly |
| 19:38.10 | ratrace | aminvakil: containers don't run their own kernels, so any kernel logs from /dev/... are host's |
| 19:38.19 | koollman | aminvakil: correct. (either host-wide or on the specific container running, without anything 'inside' the container knowing or enabling apparmor) |
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| 19:38.37 | ratrace | (with bind-mounted /dev) |
| 19:38.43 | aminvakil | ratrace: koollman: correct, thanks for your help |
| 19:38.52 | koollman | that kind of stuff is why I prefer tests running in vm :) |
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| 19:39.05 | ratrace | yeah containers are very limited and constrained environment |
| 19:39.42 | aminvakil | well molecule which is a testing application for ansible runs tests on container |
| 19:39.50 | koollman | I wonder if some modern CI/CD system makes it easy to use vm. I know it's an opened issue/feature request on many |
| 19:39.51 | aminvakil | and i've been very fine with it |
| 19:40.02 | aminvakil | since this... |
| 19:40.09 | aminvakil | s/since/until |
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| 19:40.27 | foxide | The curse of tech: Things are fine... until they're not. |
| 19:40.41 | koollman | maybe something made to use k8s but with some kata firecracker runtime |
| 19:40.43 | aminvakil | koollman: i think molecule has a plugin for vagrant too, haven't used it ever though |
| 19:41.22 | koollman | (rereading that sentence ... it's a scary stack of tech to manage :) ) |
| 19:41.57 | ratrace | it's snakeoil tech designed to sell big industry service contracts |
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| 19:42.54 | koollman | a bit, yes |
| 19:43.19 | koollman | but it's not just snakeoil, it actually does stuff |
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| 19:43.45 | ratrace | I mean with the amount of implicit "magick" going on to keep it running ... I'm amazed people trust it for actual production |
| 19:44.15 | ratrace | (and the whole wide attack surface it exposes, as well) |
| 19:45.22 | foxide | And the fud begins. |
| 19:45.48 | ratrace | and the shilling begins. |
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| 19:51.31 | aminvakil | koollman: thank you very much! it got fixed |
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| 19:52.27 | aminvakil | executing this (https://paste.debian.net/1185619/) before running molecule test which runs container and stuff |
| 19:53.06 | jezebel | hello! is there a recursive way of doing apt-get source? apt-get build-deps only gets binary dependencies? |
| 19:53.58 | ratrace | jezebel: so you want deb-src of the build deps too? |
| 19:54.44 | jezebel | i have deb-src in my sources.list? |
| 19:54.50 | jezebel | yeah |
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| 19:56.41 | jezebel | i waant to statically build a package |
| 19:57.53 | ratrace | I don't know if you can recurse automatically, or need to install them one by one. just trying to understand your use case here. which package btw? |
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| 19:59.05 | dvs | gnome! |
| 19:59.19 | jezebel | dvs... close hehehe |
| 19:59.21 | jezebel | amor from jessie |
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| 20:01.12 | mentor | jezebel: Library -dev packages usually contain the static libraries? |
| 20:01.48 | ratrace | jezebel: btw, you're aware of the reasons amor got dropped from debian? can you work around those reasons by building it from source? |
| 20:02.08 | jezebel | yeah upstream no longer working on it |
| 20:02.09 | ratrace | mentor: should be just headers, maybe docs, and that class of files |
| 20:02.27 | ratrace | jezebel: and something something incompatible with qt5 |
| 20:02.33 | jezebel | but a statically linked copy should work? |
| 20:02.45 | mentor | ratrace: I'm pretty sure that static libraries get included some of the time |
| 20:03.17 | jezebel | a pure statically linked copy should only need a compatible kernel? |
| 20:03.28 | ratrace | mentor: static (built binaries) and libraries are usually contradicting each other; what did you mean to say? |
| 20:04.00 | mentor | ratrace: I meant what I said |
| 20:04.14 | jezebel | and kernel is 'always' backwards compatible iiuc ("don't break userspace") |
| 20:04.30 | ratrace | jezebel: depends if, since it's a GUI app, it can work with qt5, unless you need to statically link all of Qt ... I don't know the full state of incompatibility there. try it and see, just before you waste your time, look up why it was dropped, s'all I'm saying :) |
| 20:04.49 | greycat | libfoobar.a is called a static library, because it's used when you statically link a program |
| 20:05.00 | greycat | -ev packages will typically contain headers and static libs |
| 20:05.09 | greycat | -dev* |
| 20:05.19 | jezebel | in theory this is possible, we have all the sources |
| 20:05.39 | jezebel | i dont care if it's like a 100MB monstrosity :) |
| 20:05.41 | ratrace | greycat: I know them as object files.... very well, then. "static libs" |
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| 20:06.41 | mentor | ratrace: They're bundled up as an ar archive |
| 20:07.21 | ratrace | well it makes sense to be in -dev packages then |
| 20:07.35 | jezebel | you compile you get an object file, you ar you get a statically linked lib |
| 20:07.52 | jezebel | wouldnt it be down to individual -dev package what they actually give you? like what their build scripts do |
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| 20:08.39 | ratrace | jezebel: yea |
| 20:09.26 | mentor | jezebel: I don't think there is metadata to say whether a static lib is provided or not |
| 20:09.56 | jezebel | first hurdle is getting all the src deps iiuc :D |
| 20:10.32 | mentor | jezebel: Well, that was my point, if you have all the first-level build deps, and they provide static libs, then you are done. |
| 20:11.23 | jezebel | are there any tools from the reproducible builds effort that might help? |
| 20:11.57 | ratrace | mentor: ie. they don't need the sources, just -dev which are pulled in by apt install build-deps, right? |
| 20:12.17 | mentor | Yes |
| 20:12.21 | ratrace | k |
| 20:12.50 | hendursaga | I need help getting my USB WiFi adapter working, it's a Ralink Technology, Corp. RT2870/RT3070, is this page what I'm looking for? https://wiki.debian.org/rt2870sta |
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| 20:13.39 | jezebel | maybe i need to jig the CMakeLists.txt, it uses the dynamic version of qt4 hmmm |
| 20:14.11 | hendursaga | I installed the packages and rebooted, but the kernel module isn't being loaded, that is, rt2870sta. |
| 20:14.30 | hendursaga | I'm guessing I might need to blacklist rt2800?? |
| 20:14.45 | jezebel | do you have a matching device? what does lsusb say? |
| 20:15.19 | hendursaga | See above, yes, I believe so. |
| 20:15.44 | hendursaga | dmesg shows that it loads the rt2800usb kernel when I first plug it in |
| 20:16.03 | ratrace | I think I have that chipset. USB wifi dongle I use as backup if ethernet fails, on my main workstation |
| 20:16.08 | ratrace | lemmesee.... |
| 20:16.54 | hendursaga | The troubleshooting section says I might need to blacklist it, but I'm not sure how to (safely) go about doing that. |
| 20:17.10 | ratrace | rt2800usb alright |
| 20:17.58 | mentor | hendursaga: Initially, what was not working with your USB adapter? |
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| 20:18.02 | ratrace | hendursaga: what does the kernel say when you plug it in? can you pastebin all that? |
| 20:18.18 | hendursaga | 148F:3070 is the ID |
| 20:18.35 | hendursaga | And this adapter has never worked on any of my Linux devices, yet |
| 20:18.56 | ratrace | ah mine is :5370 |
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| 20:20.06 | hendursaga | close enough though? |
| 20:20.39 | ratrace | hendursaga: dunno ... what module and (missing) firmware is the kernel reporting? |
| 20:20.45 | jezebel | it has to match, it's how the kernel decides what to load |
| 20:20.56 | jezebel | (iiuc) |
| 20:21.43 | hendursaga | Here's dmesg: https://dpaste.org/0zJe |
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| 20:22.46 | ratrace | hendursaga: did you filter it, or is this raw, line by line after you plug it in? |
| 20:23.38 | hendursaga | Oh, I think that was the 2nd time |
| 20:23.41 | jezebel | yeah, it looks like it's ready to go from those lines? what does ip link say? |
| 20:23.49 | mentor | hendursaga: Driver is working, you just gotta use it. |
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| 20:24.24 | ratrace | well it's missing the "usbcore: registering new interface driver ...." and then lines for firmware |
| 20:25.02 | hendursaga | ratrace: https://dpaste.org/ECHr |
| 20:25.14 | hendursaga | It's using the rt2800usb module, which AFAIK is NOT the one I need |
| 20:26.05 | hendursaga | If it matters, the internal WiFi is hard-blocked for some weird reason, and I cannot unblock it |
| 20:26.39 | mentor | hendursaga: What happens when you try to use the wifi network interface? |
| 20:27.07 | hendursaga | I press the hardware switch and on GNOME it shows a notification that I (dis/en)abled it but rfkill doesn't show a difference |
| 20:27.26 | hendursaga | mentor: Interface? It's not showing up on NetworkManager |
| 20:27.34 | hendursaga | And ip link shows only Ethernet is up |
| 20:27.52 | mentor | hendursaga: Does network manager believe it is controlling that interface? |
| 20:28.09 | mentor | hendursaga: I.e., managed is yes |
| 20:28.15 | jezebel | networkmanager wont touch anything in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 20:28.16 | hendursaga | mentor: What do you mean? |
| 20:28.30 | jezebel | or /etc/network/interfaces.d/ |
| 20:28.47 | hendursaga | It's not in there jezebel |
| 20:29.13 | hendursaga | mentor: Where do/should I see managed? ip link? |
| 20:29.33 | ratrace | no, /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf or something like that |
| 20:29.58 | mentor | hendursaga: What does running 'nmcli' say? |
| 20:30.12 | ratrace | I'd first try to get it working from the command line, wpa_supplicant directly. NM can sometimes herpderp things up |
| 20:30.25 | jezebel | (assuming you have udev and dbus installed) |
| 20:30.40 | ratrace | pretty likely assumption with gnome being there :) |
| 20:31.09 | hendursaga | ratrace: managed=false in that file |
| 20:31.17 | jezebel | oops |
| 20:31.55 | ratrace | that's okay, it means it'll stay away from interfaces defined in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 20:31.57 | hendursaga | jezebel: And I assume I hae udev and dbus isntalled - I just installed this yesterday, Debian 10 |
| 20:32.01 | ratrace | that's default, and expected |
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| 20:32.58 | ratrace | hendursaga: weirdly in your last paste, theres' no mention of missing firmware. could it be that THAT particular module needs none? I somehow doubt that, for ralink.... |
| 20:32.59 | hendursaga | mentor: https://dpaste.org/TBn2 |
| 20:33.35 | mentor | Would network manager pick up new interfaces without udev and dbus being installed? |
| 20:33.35 | hendursaga | ratrace: The docs say I might need to blacklist rt2800usb - that module is NOT the one I need, it's rt2870sta and that ain't showing |
| 20:33.36 | ratrace | hendursaga: so when you say you need rt2870sta instead of rt2800usb, and that wiki page does list your usbid .... then perhaps that's what you have to do as the kernel erroneously loads up rt2800usb. |
| 20:33.48 | ratrace | that = blacklist rt2800usb |
| 20:34.00 | hendursaga | So, how do I blacklist rt2800usb? |
| 20:34.15 | hendursaga | And do I need to blacklist its dependecies? |
| 20:34.25 | ratrace | echo "blacklist rt2800usb" > /etc/modprobe.d/99-blacklist-wifi-this-name-is-pretty-arbitrary.conf |
| 20:34.41 | mentor | So network manager believes the interface to be unavailable |
| 20:34.59 | ratrace | hendursaga: and then rebuild update-initramfs -u |
| 20:35.01 | hendursaga | ratrace: Is it recursive? |
| 20:35.23 | ratrace | no, but if you blacklis that module, then modules that depend on this one should fail to load |
| 20:35.44 | hendursaga | Also should I backup my initramfs? It looks important. |
| 20:36.32 | hendursaga | Or is it versioned or...? |
| 20:36.34 | ratrace | hendursaga: you probably have two kernel versions -- the previous one also has its own initramfs, so you kinda do have a backup. this, however, should not be something that would nuke the boot process, and you're not doing it remotely over the network |
| 20:36.46 | ratrace | you can always rebuild initramfs later |
| 20:36.51 | ratrace | don't worry about it, really. |
| 20:37.22 | hendursaga | ratrace: Why would I have two kernel versions??! I just installed it yesterday! |
| 20:37.46 | ratrace | ah right .... well, you would next time there's kernel upgrade. debian, by default, keeps one copy of previous kernel with its initramfs and config, under /boot |
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| 20:38.09 | ratrace | wise thing, so you can select the previous version, if the upgrade somehow borks the boot |
| 20:38.15 | mentor | hendursaga: You only really need to worry about initramfs if something on your path to mounting your root filesystem changes |
| 20:38.21 | ratrace | ^^ that |
| 20:38.34 | ratrace | here you're just blacklisting a wifi module. totally not anything critical for the boot process |
| 20:38.45 | hendursaga | OK cool |
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| 20:39.15 | hendursaga | I assume Debian Stable doesn't really get kernel upgrades that much? :P |
| 20:39.49 | hendursaga | https://wiki.debian.org/KernelModuleBlacklisting says to run depmod -ae as root - is that necessary here? |
| 20:39.49 | ratrace | hendursaga: once in anywhere from few days to I think the record I saw was ~130 days in 2019 |
| 20:39.52 | wsky | not too often |
| 20:41.01 | hendursaga | I assume it has something to do with module dependencies.. |
| 20:41.26 | ratrace | no I don't think you need to run that |
| 20:41.56 | ratrace | just add that blacklist, update initramfs, and reboot. in fact, I think you maybe don't even need to reboot, but can rmmod and modprobe the correct one after blacklisting. dunno. try it. or just reboot |
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| 20:45.07 | jezebel | dumb question but why is [u]xterm not picking up my .Xresources in xfce? when i xrdb -q it's shown as merged in but [u]xterm isn't reflecting this? |
| 20:46.46 | ratrace | jezebel: try ~/.Xdefaults instead |
| 20:47.02 | jezebel | tried that too |
| 20:47.08 | ratrace | huh. |
| 20:47.27 | jezebel | if i start [u]xterm from within [u]xterm the Xresources are applied |
| 20:47.48 | pasiz | jezebel: did you reload your xsession |
| 20:47.51 | ratrace | is xfce's .desktop for [u]xterm adding any options? |
| 20:47.53 | jezebel | log out and back in yeah |
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| 20:48.23 | jezebel | hmmm i dont think so, the .desktop should be pat of xterm package? |
| 20:48.27 | jezebel | lemme chekc |
| 20:49.00 | ratrace | I'm guessing xfce starting apps, and having app icons and menu entries, through .desktop files |
| 20:49.42 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
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| 20:51.30 | jezebel | yeah nothing in there of note |
| 20:52.25 | pasiz | do you execute xrdb -merge to your Xresources |
| 20:52.39 | pasiz | after making changes |
| 20:52.58 | jezebel | when i log in it should be merged already? |
| 20:53.19 | jezebel | it does get merged i believe, bcause xrdb -q shows my resources when i log in |
| 20:53.25 | merAzi | about uxterm not picking xresources, that's because xterm and uxterm use different settings names, try adding UXTerm*option: to your .Xresources |
| 20:53.28 | jezebel | but xterm doesnt see |
| 20:53.42 | jezebel | yeah i've tried both UXTerm and XTerm |
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| 20:56.36 | pasiz | if you "xrdb ~/.Xresources" and start uxterm, would it work then? |
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| 20:58.54 | hendursaga | Rebooted, and nothing. rt2800usb doesn't load, sure, but rt2870sta doesn't, either |
| 20:59.24 | jezebel | lol i cant get it to not work now, so confused |
| 20:59.45 | merAzi | weird |
| 20:59.47 | hendursaga | Now the interface doesn't even show up |
| 20:59.49 | ratrace | hendursaga: is there a clue in dmesg about failing module or firmware? |
| 21:00.02 | ratrace | hendursaga: eh it showed previously? I thought you said it didn't |
| 21:00.28 | hendursaga | ratrace: The interface showed previously, on ip link |
| 21:00.54 | ratrace | now I R confused |
| 21:00.56 | hendursaga | ratrace: And nothing in dmesg, beyond firmware warnings, but that concerns Ethernet and Ethernet obviously works |
| 21:00.58 | pasiz | jezebel: so now xrdb functions correctly |
| 21:01.03 | jezebel | yeah |
| 21:02.11 | hendursaga | ratrace: That really really long interface name - that was the USB adapter, at least, before |
| 21:02.17 | ratrace | hendursaga: maybe the kernel is smarter than that wiki ... |
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| 21:02.30 | merAzi | is uxterm detecting the xresources configuration now? |
| 21:02.54 | hendursaga | Now, it doesn't show up at all. One issue with the prior config was that the interface had to be renamed, from wlan0, I believe. Would that have been an issue?? |
| 21:03.03 | ratrace | hendursaga: meaning, if you have the kernel show the device ... welp ... try and configure it |
| 21:03.18 | ratrace | hendursaga: "had to be"? or you mean the dmesg entry where it's renamed? |
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| 21:04.00 | hendursaga | The dmesg entry, from last boot |
| 21:04.08 | ratrace | hendursaga: yah that's normal, udev changing from kernel's name into a so called "predictable" name. |
| 21:04.24 | ratrace | hendursaga: so to revert this ... remove that blacklist line; update-initramfs -u ; reboot |
| 21:04.58 | ratrace | and when you get to see the link, try configuring it with wpa_supplicant. note that with wifi you have wo OSI layers to configure. the wifi itself, which is lower, and then when that connects, you get the higher IP layer with dhcp or static IP |
| 21:05.00 | hendursaga | Could I just comment it out? |
| 21:05.14 | mentor | As opposed to the kernel's somewhat arbitrary device naming strategy |
| 21:05.16 | ratrace | ie, you can have wpa_supplicant connect successfully, without the higher one getting an IP, for testing |
| 21:05.21 | ratrace | hendursaga: yes |
| 21:05.48 | ratrace | mentor: actually ... the udev one seems arbitrary. kernel will always do wlan0 or eth0, and if there's more, wlan1, eth1, ... |
| 21:06.13 | ratrace | now for $1000 cash, predict the name hendursaga will get on boot :) no peaking in scrollback :) |
| 21:06.43 | mentor | ratrace: The index assigned by the kernel is in now way guaranteed |
| 21:06.46 | mentor | no |
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| 21:07.04 | hendursaga | Probably the idea, haha |
| 21:07.09 | ratrace | that's true, and not kernel's fault, but BIOS/EFI/chipset .. which can be solved by locking nic name to MAC addr |
| 21:07.54 | ratrace | which is what I do, I prefer that. the "predictable" names can change in some cases when you have buggy bios/efi/firmware/chipset .. the very same scenario that prompted the "predictable" naming in the first place. |
| 21:07.55 | mentor | ratrace: No, it is the kernel's fault; it assigns in the order it enumerates |
| 21:08.09 | ratrace | it's one of the atrocious parts of systemd politics, that "predictable" naming |
| 21:08.18 | mentor | ratrace: Please be quiet |
| 21:08.28 | ratrace | what? |
| 21:08.57 | mentor | The kernel doesn't make a guarantee, and the userspace does its best to work around that |
| 21:09.07 | mentor | That's the situation |
| 21:09.17 | ratrace | I never said that wasn't the true, however the ordering is done by bios |
| 21:09.25 | ratrace | AND to fix it, bind MAC to NIC name. solved. |
| 21:09.45 | mentor | Yeah, that only works for network interfaces |
| 21:09.48 | ratrace | you don't need wlanxnafjsiodpjuf9ouw4q0uwfwa90u43w90tfumw409fu ewr09t7ue09t34u09te34 crapshit in the name of "predictabilit" when the same buggy bios will happily rename that next boot |
| 21:10.10 | mentor | ratrace: Please refrain from the rhetoric |
| 21:10.17 | ratrace | like ... pull out your GPU, get effed on reboot with totally new NIC names. there's an issue for just that on systemd GH |
| 21:10.47 | greycat | mentor: it's not just rhetoric, though. People have had that problem here before. |
| 21:10.50 | ratrace | which means "predictable" naming solved NOTHING. just added moar headaches. the proper fix is binding MAC and NIC name, either via .link or interfaces(5) or whatever other way is usable |
| 21:11.06 | *** part/#debian pocmoc (~pocmoc@unaffiliated/pocmoc) |
| 21:11.17 | ratrace | there's bug reports to back up the "rhetoric" |
| 21:11.44 | dvs | ratrace: some use the MAC, some use the slot ID too |
| 21:12.10 | ratrace | that slot ID might change, that's the problem |
| 21:12.19 | mentor | Also, not every system has a firmware |
| 21:12.30 | ratrace | irrelevant for the issue at hand. |
| 21:13.23 | mentor | The kernel does not guarantee device names. |
| 21:13.26 | dvs | ratrace: Yeah, the slot ID shouldn't be used. |
| 21:14.22 | ratrace | mentor: "22:07 < ratrace> that's true, ..." |
| 21:14.39 | ratrace | dvs: let me tell you a tale of linux kernel 5.9 and totally flakked up, renamed, renumbered, regroupped IOMMU and slot IDs and a workstation failing to boot because of that. :) |
| 21:14.41 | *** join/#debian diniwed (~gavron@ool-44c21938.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 21:15.01 | ratrace | dvs: it has a happy end: 5.10 fixed it, and that's good because it's bullseyes. phew. |
| 21:15.19 | *** join/#debian mtn (~mtn@unaffiliated/mtn) |
| 21:16.09 | mentor | ratrace: Quoting your own comments to me doesn't help if you didn't read any of the replies to them. |
| 21:16.34 | dvs | ratrace: I haven't had a problem with the 5.9 kernel with my laptop or desktop. I used udev to keep the ethernet name fixed. |
| 21:16.43 | ratrace | repeating "the kernel does not guarantee" doesn't help either. we agreed with that from the start. |
| 21:17.19 | ratrace | dvs: yeah I keep a networkd .link with MACs |
| 21:17.19 | *** join/#debian ceska (~Cieska@31.124.204.52) |
| 21:17.50 | dvs | ratrace: Oops. I meant I fixed the name on my server with udev. I didn't have to do anything with my laptop or desktop. |
| 21:19.18 | *** join/#debian Messenger_bird (~banana@wikipedia/Antonio-Lopez) |
| 21:20.06 | hendursaga | Interface is back. Now to figure out how to configure wpa_supplicant |
| 21:20.33 | dvs | good luck!!! |
| 21:22.11 | ratrace | hendursaga: you can reuse the paste I made for somoene a bit earlier: https://bpa.st/MZJQ |
| 21:24.44 | towo` | live |
| 21:25.06 | towo` | sorry, wrong window |
| 21:26.59 | jezebel | merAzi⦠yep |
| 21:27.14 | jezebel | hendursaga⦠wpa_passphrase is your friend |
| 21:27.27 | hendursaga | So uh, /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant doesn't exist |
| 21:27.31 | hendursaga | *.conf |
| 21:27.35 | pasiz | 802.1x is also invented |
| 21:28.30 | *** join/#debian tgunr (admin@dsl-dhcp-conrtxxahre-72-26-31-116.consolidated.net) |
| 21:28.30 | hendursaga | Is that expected or what? I configured WiFi in NM already, so.. |
| 21:28.33 | merAzi | jezebel, nice :-) |
| 21:28.53 | jezebel | do you have the wpasupplicant packge installed? |
| 21:28.57 | ratrace | hendursaga: yes it's expected. NM does dbus-api, doesn't configure static files for wpasupplicant |
| 21:29.15 | hendursaga | Yes I do jezebel |
| 21:29.39 | ratrace | hendursaga: create the file and use the naming pattern of wpasupplicant-<nic name>.conf |
| 21:29.50 | *** join/#debian sig_9 (~sig@dialup-208-98-133-190.fmtc.com) |
| 21:29.58 | ratrace | %s/wpasup/wpa_sup/ |
| 21:30.28 | ratrace | why? to remain in line with the expected standards. wpasupplicant (the package) installs some systemd services which can be used as templates with NIC names that then source exactly those patterns |
| 21:30.54 | *** join/#debian sinaowolabi (~Sina@102.134.114.1) |
| 21:32.13 | pasiz | if using just password auth, what's the point of creating wpa_supplicant config when nm |
| 21:32.52 | pasiz | does nm forget settings? |
| 21:33.11 | jezebel | nm uses wpasupplicant under the hood for you |
| 21:33.15 | ratrace | nm uses wpasupplicant's dbus api |
| 21:33.25 | jezebel | yup |
| 21:33.42 | pasiz | so yup, it forgets or what? |
| 21:33.52 | ratrace | ie doesn't care about your config files. and hre, I recommended hendursaga try "manual" approach, ousside NM because NM is ..... flaky.... in some situations, ti's hard to control variables of _what_ exactly is failing. |
| 21:34.04 | jezebel | if you dont have a gui, you can use nmtui if you want to be insulated from it all |
| 21:34.05 | ratrace | this way, they can see the OSI layers at work and where the failure is |
| 21:35.12 | *** join/#debian we3fan (~we3fan@unaffiliated/we3fan) |
| 21:35.16 | hendursaga | Hello from WiFi! :) |
| 21:35.23 | ratrace | mwahahahaha! |
| 21:35.37 | jezebel | aesome |
| 21:35.38 | dvs | uh oh! |
| 21:35.48 | queip | on the "updated" www page, all downloads - https://www.debian.org/distrib/ - seem harder to find |
| 21:35.50 | queip | this ain't good |
| 21:36.03 | hendursaga | So now what? NM still doesn't list it, so... is this automated? |
| 21:36.06 | ratrace | hendursaga: so wait... it's rt2800usb after all ... no firmware... and ... using wpa_supplicant or NM to connect? |
| 21:36.17 | hendursaga | wpa_supplicant it appears |
| 21:36.29 | jezebel | iirc... # wpa_supplicant -Dnl80211 -B -c <(wpa_passphrase SSID password) -iwlan0 |
| 21:36.46 | ratrace | that means it works. NM will use wpasupplicant too, so the question here is ..... what's NM's problem. referring to "flakey" adjective from before. eff NM, tho. |
| 21:36.53 | jezebel | then dhclient for your ip address |
| 21:37.03 | hendursaga | Does that require root? |
| 21:37.07 | jezebel | yes |
| 21:37.21 | hendursaga | I had to use ifup so.. aww man |
| 21:37.30 | pasiz | cannot understand how it's flakey... i use eap-tls on home too, and never have problems |
| 21:37.42 | hendursaga | Maybe if I restart NM would work, haha |
| 21:37.46 | jezebel | ifup will use /etc/network/interfaces which tlls it to use wpasupplicant and dhclient |
| 21:38.02 | ratrace | if you configure it so |
| 21:38.06 | hendursaga | Is there a way to get WiFi up without root every time? |
| 21:38.07 | jezebel | true |
| 21:38.45 | ratrace | hendursaga: with the pastebin I showed you, that approach can work automatically. you plug in the USB thingy, it connects. you unplug it, it disconnects |
| 21:38.59 | ratrace | thanks to interfaces(5) persistence and allow-hotplug |
| 21:39.13 | hendursaga | Can? OK, yeah that sounds vaguely familiar |
| 21:39.30 | ratrace | some say it's even possible to roam with a static wpa_supplicant config like that and all the hotspots enumerated and confiugred. it's all automagick |
| 21:40.03 | ratrace | hendursaga: can yes, and I know it for a fact. I have that exact setup, where I use a wifi dongle as backup for eth0. I plug it in, it autoconnects, works. assumes eth0 is down and routes are off |
| 21:40.23 | ratrace | otherwise you might need some post-up re-routing magick |
| 21:40.24 | jezebel | fwiw i've had flakey experiences with nm... i hate the 'deauthenticating by local choice' message, it doesnt tell you who or what did it |
| 21:40.29 | hendursaga | Cool, cool, now I can fix my friend's WiFi haha |
| 21:40.47 | dvs | famous last words |
| 21:40.51 | hendursaga | ratrace: Routing? As in? |
| 21:41.03 | hendursaga | ip route ? |
| 21:41.07 | ratrace | hendursaga: default gateway |
| 21:41.20 | hendursaga | Ah, that never really changes for me |
| 21:41.41 | ratrace | bringing up wlan0 like this (by hotplugging the dongle) where eth0 is already connected, will have borked default route |
| 21:41.53 | ratrace | yes, changes for me as the wifi network is in different subnet |
| 21:41.57 | pasiz | default route should come from dhcp... |
| 21:42.18 | queip | when I go to VT 1 from my FXCE running VT7, then graphical programs seem to freeze |
| 21:42.27 | queip | torrent stops downloading, irc client hangs and times out |
| 21:42.27 | pasiz | and two legged connections are always evil |
| 21:42.35 | ratrace | yeah |
| 21:43.07 | jezebel | nic teaming? *runs away* |
| 21:43.08 | pasiz | with two legs, you face multiple asymmetrical routing problems, etc... |
| 21:43.14 | *** join/#debian tgunr (admin@dsl-dhcp-conrtxxahre-72-26-31-116.consolidated.net) |
| 21:43.25 | ratrace | jezebel: bonding eth0 and wifi? teh heresy! :) |
| 21:43.43 | pasiz | not to mention stateful packet filtering on that kind of network... |
| 21:44.06 | ratrace | eh my iptables rules don't include -i for that reason :) except where it's -i specific |
| 21:44.50 | hendursaga | And.. victory short lived.. |
| 21:44.55 | ratrace | now what |
| 21:45.12 | hendursaga | I shut my laptop case to move to the spot I wanted to go to without Ethernet, and then device shut off |
| 21:45.24 | hendursaga | I had to do ipdown and then ipup to bring it back up again |
| 21:45.48 | pasiz | ratrace: does -i do connection tracking |
| 21:46.16 | ratrace | pasiz: it's just a filter criteria for nic name |
| 21:46.33 | pasiz | but even states doesn't work on network with legs in multiple subnets |
| 21:46.57 | dvs | hendursaga: That's an ACPI issue, not a networking issue. |
| 21:46.59 | hendursaga | Also how might I get on another WiFi network? |
| 21:47.11 | ratrace | well it's assumed that tcp sessions wont receive packets from different networks, unless you have that explicitly enabled with bonding |
| 21:47.31 | hendursaga | Just add another entry to wpa_supplicant? |
| 21:47.35 | jmcnaught | What was wrong with using NetworkManager? |
| 21:47.38 | ratrace | hendursaga: with this approach? add another network={} stanza in the wpa supplicant conf |
| 21:48.03 | hendursaga | jmcnaught: No idea |
| 21:48.04 | dvs | and assign a priority |
| 21:48.11 | ratrace | jmcnaught: that's the part that has to be figured out. NM refused to use the NIC |
| 21:50.09 | hendursaga | dvs: Priority? How might I select one to use? |
| 21:51.19 | hendursaga | Is the smallest # the highest priority? |
| 21:51.27 | ratrace | hendursaga: /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/examples/wpa-roam.conf |
| 21:51.43 | ratrace | and other files in that dir, they're the defacto wpa_supplicant.conf documentation |
| 21:51.55 | dvs | hendursaga: look at the wpa-roam.conf that ratrace posted. |
| 21:51.58 | *** join/#debian Elodin (~weechat@unaffiliated/padawan) |
| 21:52.20 | *** join/#debian NicoSGF64 (~nico@160.red-95-127-26.staticip.rima-tde.net) |
| 21:53.46 | hendursaga | OK got it |
| 21:53.59 | hendursaga | Now how do I switch? Do I need root for that? |
| 21:54.10 | *** part/#debian NicoSGF64 (~nico@160.red-95-127-26.staticip.rima-tde.net) |
| 21:54.27 | *** join/#debian ethelack (~alislack@203.211.96.190) |
| 21:54.31 | dvs | hendursaga: you don't switch manually. It is automatic. |
| 21:54.46 | *** join/#debian uvolmer (~uvolmer@2001-4dd0-212c-82-5acc-6b0b-da9c-d52c.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de) |
| 21:54.57 | hendursaga | Do I need to restart something though? |
| 21:55.47 | ratrace | networking.service ideally |
| 21:56.56 | queip | is it possible in Debian to have applications not freeze when you switch to other VT? |
| 21:57.12 | greycat | sounds like an nvidia problem |
| 21:57.46 | queip | greycat: amd |
| 21:58.17 | greycat | well, it ain't supposed to do that, so either investigate whether you've got the correct firmware, drivers, etc. or file a bug report |
| 21:58.47 | queip | greycat: by freeze I mean that gui using programs stop doing almost anything, and they resume when you are back in X |
| 21:59.48 | yogoyo | queip: how do you know the program stops doing "almost anything"? |
| 22:00.02 | *** part/#debian ethelack (~alislack@203.211.96.190) |
| 22:00.05 | queip | yogoyo: irc client hangs, and gets disconnect, strace on it shows it does nothing at all |
| 22:00.06 | greycat | is the program in question a web app inside a web browser? |
| 22:00.27 | queip | gui torrent client, stops downloading the file (file size stays same) |
| 22:01.59 | yogoyo | queip: what CPU? how much RAM, is enough free? |
| 22:02.16 | queip | yogoyo: yea, computer is working fine otherwise |
| 22:02.36 | queip | for example qtcreator program continues to work (compiles a project) while in other VT |
| 22:03.03 | *** join/#debian Dotz0cat (~Dotz0cat@h59.28.188.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) |
| 22:03.04 | *** join/#debian format_c (~format_c@unaffiliated/format-c/x-8927423) |
| 22:03.10 | queip | could it be some kind of hot-seating network... namespace... ? |
| 22:03.21 | yogoyo | no idea |
| 22:03.33 | queip | though ping keeps working |
| 22:04.17 | ratrace | changing vt, changes the rendering context. I'm guessing the "frozen" apps are waiting for the blocking rendering context... |
| 22:04.31 | *** join/#debian longshot (~nobody@2001:470:f0f4:a0a:88f2:12f:2487:ac99) |
| 22:05.00 | Taserface | do an strace -tt to see where it gets "stuck" |
| 22:05.06 | Taserface | or -ttt |
| 22:07.44 | queip | ratrace: so what is to blame and how to fix it |
| 22:08.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1199] by debhelper |
| 22:08.56 | ratrace | queip: if my assumption is correct, the only fix is to rewrite the apps to use nonblocking contexts and/or multithreading |
| 22:09.13 | ratrace | but ... that's just my ass umption |
| 22:09.25 | queip | 1613426916.402281 futex(0x7ffcee76820c, FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE, 0, NULL) = 0 |
| 22:09.27 | queip | 1613426926.358604 futex(0x55aa593b85c8, FUTEX_WAKE_PRIVATE, 1) = 0 |
| 22:09.59 | ratrace | definitely locks being waited on |
| 22:10.02 | queip | ratrace: wow that's terrible. but most people do not have that problem, do they? |
| 22:10.03 | *** join/#debian waxfire (~waxfire@152.89.209.134) |
| 22:10.22 | ratrace | dunno. and I don't feel like changing the VT now to test it :) |
| 22:10.53 | ratrace | I mean it's not something you'd normally do, change the vt from xorg |
| 22:12.17 | queip | ratrace: administrating from graphical console of an user is not as secure |
| 22:12.21 | milkt | is this about specific X program or any program drawing something on X? |
| 22:12.37 | queip | milkt: irc client, torrent client - for 2 things tested |
| 22:12.44 | ratrace | thinking about it now, maybe a compositor would help |
| 22:13.19 | queip | video stack in linux is so overcomplicated... so how to "get a compositior"? I want to use xfce for the windows and stuff |
| 22:14.43 | ratrace | I think Compton is recommended these days for xfce? |
| 22:14.52 | ratrace | ,i compton |
| 22:14.55 | judd | Package compton (x11, optional) in buster/amd64: compositor for X11, based on xcompmgr. Version: 0.1~beta2+20150922-1; Size: 97.4k; Installed: 264k; Homepage: https://github.com/chjj/compton; O: #960779 |
| 22:15.29 | *** join/#debian NeoCron (~neocron_@p200300c4cf43fe00741fa2c6e5a278dc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 22:15.50 | ratrace | queip: "administrating from graphical console of an user is not as secure" eh... what? |
| 22:15.51 | *** join/#debian ceska (~Cieska@31.124.204.52) |
| 22:15.59 | ratrace | you mean because of potential.... keyloggers? |
| 22:17.04 | queip | ratrace: yea, isn't that obvious? |
| 22:18.02 | ratrace | aren't /dev/input devices always reflecting your input, regardless of VT you're on? |
| 22:18.04 | queip | if you want to escalate one user being hacked into root then go on, but I don't like that idea ;) |
| 22:18.24 | bru | ratrace: I've been told that compton has stopped its developement a while ago, and so picom came as a fork |
| 22:18.28 | bru | ,i picom |
| 22:18.29 | judd | No package named 'picom' was found in buster/amd64. |
| 22:18.31 | queip | ratrace: that would be a terrible security decission even as for Linux standards, pretty sure that no |
| 22:18.33 | ratrace | I actually don't know this part, hence asking. because if they do .... then a threat actor able to execute a RCE as your user can sniff it, xorg or no xorg, because teh devices are ACL'd to you |
| 22:18.47 | ratrace | ,v picom |
| 22:18.47 | *** join/#debian Teacup (~qteacup@unaffiliated/teacup) |
| 22:18.47 | judd | Package: picom on amd64 -- bullseye: 8.2-1; sid: 8.2-1 |
| 22:19.06 | ratrace | bru: in bullseye then :) right now we're recommending software available in stable :) |
| 22:19.30 | bru | Ah, I get it |
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| 22:20.50 | jezebel | xfwm4 supports compositing |
| 22:21.05 | queip | jezebel: how you use that? |
| 22:21.29 | jezebel | it's the default window manager for xfce? |
| 22:21.55 | ratrace | queip: I definitely think you're flakked if a threat actor can attack your xorg via RCE run as the same user |
| 22:21.56 | queip | xfwm4-Message: 23:21:33.455: Another Window Manager (Xfwm4) is already running on screen :0.0 |
| 22:22.00 | queip | was I using it already? |
| 22:22.04 | ratrace | ie ... false sense of security. |
| 22:22.08 | jezebel | looks it |
| 22:22.24 | queip | ratrace: almost everyone runs exploits on his linux |
| 22:22.33 | queip | by running buggy as hell firefox, or other web browsers |
| 22:22.36 | jezebel | you can switch it out for something else, like openbox |
| 22:22.41 | jezebel | but i've never done that |
| 22:23.11 | petn-randall | queip: Are you mixing up exploits and exploitable software? |
| 22:23.12 | queip | jezebel: btw how will openbox help? |
| 22:23.16 | jezebel | queip⦠you enable/disable the compositing in Settings > Window Manager Tweaks |
| 22:23.16 | queip | petn-randall: yes |
| 22:23.42 | jezebel | it's modular is what i'm saying |
| 22:23.44 | queip | ok, enabled now |
| 22:24.21 | queip | wow transparent windows |
| 22:24.30 | queip | let's pretends it's 2005 again and all the laddies will dig it |
| 22:25.00 | jezebel | feel free to contribute code to xfce so i can benefit as an end user :P |
| 22:25.12 | *** join/#debian sbingner (~sam@phathack/sbingner) |
| 22:25.19 | queip | sadly it did nothing to the freezing problem |
| 22:25.39 | *** join/#debian Souler (~Souler@user-5-173-235-62.play-internet.pl) |
| 22:25.59 | yogoyo | maybe its the programs that dont play well with general scheduling |
| 22:26.11 | yogoyo | like a shitty torrent client |
| 22:26.16 | queip | yogoyo: ? |
| 22:26.27 | ratrace | which was my assumption. programms blocking on lacking rendering context |
| 22:26.33 | queip | what it would have to do with active VT. computer works well overload, low load and all |
| 22:26.36 | yogoyo | yeah, when you switch focus the program goes idle |
| 22:26.40 | jezebel | could be anything, like a bad driver somewhere down the ine |
| 22:26.50 | jezebel | line^ |
| 22:26.55 | queip | ratrace: so who is to belame? one of million X libraries? Qt? gtk? Xfce? |
| 22:27.02 | ratrace | no single answer |
| 22:27.04 | yogoyo | but whatever. good luck |
| 22:27.11 | *** part/#debian yogoyo (~patrick@gnewbistro.de) |
| 22:27.26 | jezebel | you could try checking the xorg logs |
| 22:27.39 | queip | jezebel: no erros appear in them during that time |
| 22:27.50 | ratrace | queip: I think you're overestimating the value of switching VT for "security" reasons and are just chasing rainbows |
| 22:28.02 | jezebel | queip⦠anything in the timestamps to ggive you a hint? |
| 22:28.19 | queip | ratrace: what is "over estimated" in not letting your potentially hacked programs see you type in root password? |
| 22:28.52 | jezebel | sudo might be your friend |
| 22:29.01 | ratrace | in that potentially hacked programs that are running as your user can see everything you do, because they're running as you |
| 22:29.05 | queip | ratrace: with such assumption you can just add * to wheel and sudoers. asking for root password inside of user program is security theater mostly |
| 22:29.24 | ratrace | linux security rests on UID separation but things run as the same UID? without MAC or namespaces, it's game over |
| 22:29.33 | queip | jezebel: yeah exactly, with such assumptions sudoers is just a security theater |
| 22:29.59 | jezebel | is your root password the same as your user password? Hmmm |
| 22:30.10 | queip | jezebel: ? of course not |
| 22:30.13 | jezebel | with sudo you type in your user password |
| 22:30.18 | jezebel | not your root password |
| 22:30.59 | jezebel | you prove who you are as a user and you get certain privileges which are typically associated with root, controlled by the sudoers file |
| 22:31.22 | jezebel | so you shouldnt be compromising your root password |
| 22:31.27 | ratrace | my root and user's pass are the same. because it totally doesn't matter what the root pass is if I'm a sudoer :) |
| 22:31.42 | queip | if attacker is already running your user, then intercept entire X windows manager or anything like that, run own fake sudo-gtk, get user password, then use that password to become root via sudo |
| 22:31.49 | nkuttler | ratrace: that's entirely wrong, see man 5 sudoers |
| 22:32.01 | ratrace | nkuttler: how's that wrong? |
| 22:32.04 | jezebel | if an attacker has access to your machine it's game over |
| 22:32.24 | ratrace | nkuttler: who cares what the root pass is, if anyone with knowledge of MY password can simply sudo -i |
| 22:32.36 | queip | jezebel: lol.. no. Then what would be the point of heaving mechanisms like password on sudo, make everything passwordless |
| 22:32.43 | jezebel | ratrace⦠serves you right for not locking down in sudoers :P |
| 22:32.50 | ratrace | for locking WHAT down |
| 22:32.59 | nkuttler | ratrace: see man 5 interfaces |
| 22:33.02 | jezebel | what you have access to when you sudo |
| 22:33.19 | ratrace | nkuttler: okay so you don't know. gocha. |
| 22:33.22 | nkuttler | but then, if you don't trust a person, just assume anybody with a shell is root |
| 22:33.30 | ratrace | jezebel: I _need_ full root access that's what I'm sayin |
| 22:33.33 | jezebel | it's pretty fine grained |
| 22:33.34 | jezebel | yeah me too |
| 22:33.34 | nkuttler | ratrace: i know, but i don't care to read the man page to you |
| 22:33.37 | jezebel | :D |
| 22:33.58 | ratrace | so back to what I said .... my root and my user's pass are the same because I am sudoer with full sudo -i ability so it completely doesn't matter what root's pass is |
| 22:34.04 | ratrace | nkuttler: no you don't |
| 22:34.11 | jezebel | ratrace⦠yeah i get that |
| 22:34.22 | jezebel | i was jking :D |
| 22:34.22 | ratrace | apparently nkuttler doesn't |
| 22:34.26 | queip | ratrace: well the first step would be to NOT be in sudoers. Then using root from vt1 makes sense. |
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| 22:34.56 | nkuttler | you can also configure pam if you want to do such silly things |
| 22:35.05 | ratrace | that's completely different. I was talking about the ability to use sudo to become full, logged in root. |
| 22:36.02 | jezebel | queip⦠feel free to write a pam module which asks you for your password in tty1 lol |
| 22:36.30 | queip | my use case is that regular user, who runs X and crap like firefox, can not sudo into root. and then root I access only by logging into root in separate VT1. The goal is that when firefox gets exploited via one of million firefox/etc vulns, they can't log into my other users which are kind of improtant for me, like my bitcoin server user |
| 22:37.21 | ratrace | here's a little secret. I run firefox as its own unprivileged user :) well, at least for untrusted browsing. and it has an apparmor profile, carefully tailored because default ff profile is too wide open. |
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| 22:38.01 | jezebel | i need to learn about apparmor |
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| 22:38.02 | ratrace | queip: if your FF gets exploited with full RCE .... it's basically game over and "we can't be sure" land. |
| 22:38.05 | ratrace | !ripley method |
| 22:38.06 | dpkg | "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." -- Ellen Ripley |
| 22:38.08 | queip | jezebel: that is a good idea, but for thing that need to be root, not just the moment of typing in password must be done outside of potentially-taken-over X. Otherweise even if I type in root pass via secure method, as soon as root shell would be in my infected X session, attacker would inject keyboard events and type in commands as root |
| 22:38.51 | ratrace | queip: like ... was there a kernel zeroday privilege escalation that the threat actor just executed with that full RCE |
| 22:38.51 | jezebel | haha i just watched aliens again the other weekend :/ |
| 22:38.57 | queip | ratrace: I know nothing is perfect, but still attacker neeeds an exploit to go from user to root. they happen too, but it's harder to at same time have both this and ffox rce |
| 22:38.59 | ratrace | jezebel: :) |
| 22:39.17 | nkuttler | queip: if you own enough bitcoin to care about such things you should just run it on airgapped hardware |
| 22:39.27 | queip | jezebel: apparmor is toy for kids, mostly |
| 22:39.31 | ratrace | or .... are there still widely unknown meltdown or spectre bugs so the FF hack doesn't even need a RCE to take out my secrets |
| 22:39.44 | queip | nkuttler: I do, this is my bitcoin node for coffee etc ;)) |
| 22:39.53 | jezebel | put it in a kvm :D |
| 22:39.55 | nkuttler | basically, anybody with a shell should be assumed to be root |
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| 22:40.05 | ratrace | or ..... what if they somehow exploited the IME.... then it's "they're coming out of the walls!" time! |
| 22:40.22 | queip | well plan for the worst, but at same time minimize access, which is what is done here |
| 22:40.27 | jmcnaught | From what I understand under Wayland programs do not share a common input queue (so one program can not keylog another) except for all the programs that run under XWayland. |
| 22:40.33 | ratrace | nkuttler: exactly. if they can RCE.... you can't know what else they did exploit |
| 22:40.37 | jezebel | nkuttler⦠there's been a couple of noteworthy sudo bugs recently that makes that assumption fair :/ |
| 22:40.48 | nkuttler | even without sudo |
| 22:40.49 | queip | ratrace: which IME? |
| 22:41.03 | ratrace | queip: the ... THE.... IME? |
| 22:41.08 | queip | ratrace: what is IME? |
| 22:41.13 | jezebel | intel management engine |
| 22:41.17 | ratrace | oooooh.... are you sitting? |
| 22:41.21 | jezebel | hahah |
| 22:41.39 | ratrace | it's...... a full blown.... MINIX.... operating system running in a chip ousside the CPU with total. absolute. control over the hardware. |
| 22:41.41 | jezebel | your processor in the processor, it runs on minix :D |
| 22:41.46 | queip | yeah there are various CPU and mainboard exploits, we know |
| 22:41.56 | queip | doesn't mean you should throw away all security mechanisms everywhere |
| 22:42.26 | ratrace | no no. just saying.... if anyone gets to your FF and can exec random code? it's game over. |
| 22:42.48 | queip | ratrace: it's not game over in the case where they had the ffox exploit, but didn't bought zero time user to root |
| 22:42.59 | ratrace | and I forgot to mention the possibility to exec code in ring0 through the buggy GPU driver code |
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| 22:43.20 | ratrace | queip: my point is ... you can't know if they did or didn't have and exec a 0day privilege escalation |
| 22:43.30 | queip | ratrace: and? |
| 22:44.00 | ratrace | queip: so if you have use case where you absolutely must prevent that... then running things as root over VT ain't gonna help |
| 22:44.10 | ratrace | you must redesign the secuirty boundaries. |
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| 22:44.28 | queip | usecases that ABSOLUTELY must prevent that I run on offline airgapped computer |
| 22:44.47 | queip | but it's a bit not comfortable, so a middle level of security is enough for other things |
| 22:45.28 | queip | not sure why it needs explanation that there are other levels of security between using root password hunter2 and heaving all users in sudoers, and between building own CPU from TTL logic |
| 22:46.24 | ratrace | I know there are. I just think that _this_ particular case is misaligned. |
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| 22:46.39 | ratrace | running as root over another VT beause your FF might be compromised |
| 22:46.42 | queip | compositor didn't helped in xfce. other things to try? |
| 22:47.31 | queip | btw there is none good video card for debian, one that doesn't need binary blobs to work well, is there yet? maybe in next decade? |
| 22:47.56 | queip | hm maybe run everything in damn Xnest, or firejail X... |
| 22:48.04 | ratrace | doesn't nouveau work withou.... oh wait, even that has some firmware amirite? |
| 22:48.16 | ratrace | queip: I prefer kvm hypervisor boundaries |
| 22:48.23 | queip | well, at least nothing that runs "on cpu" that is closed |
| 22:48.26 | jezebel | kvm is awesome |
| 22:48.43 | ratrace | sure, not absolute, but waaaaaay better than running trusted, sensitive, and untrusted on the SAME kernel |
| 22:48.46 | jezebel | isnt amd's vega supposed to be more open? |
| 22:49.02 | queip | jezebel: the virtual machine? it's ok but you need lots of ram, and it is somewhat combersome to switch. btw, there were kvm breakout to user exploits too (still, it's an idea) |
| 22:49.46 | ratrace | firejailing X is also misaligned security. X runs code in ring0. game over. both nvidia and intel (I haven't been paying attention about AMD) have had vulns in that same ring, in the past two or so years |
| 22:49.53 | ratrace | intel still does, on haswells if I'm not mistaken |
| 22:50.10 | queip | only root can change the code that X runs in ring 0 |
| 22:50.20 | queip | so it's still saved on user to root |
| 22:50.31 | ratrace | not true. look at recent nvidia xploits |
| 22:50.47 | ratrace | opengl hey fatty boom boom |
| 22:50.53 | queip | ofc minus exploits, but again they are getting fixed so it increases amount of work to break it, 2 expls > 1 |
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| 22:51.07 | queip | btw wasnt that nvidia bug like years ago, they did it again? |
| 22:51.21 | ratrace | the last one was just last year (2020) methinks |
| 22:52.07 | ratrace | lolno, there's 2021 CVEs https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/security/ |
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| 22:55.03 | queip | thx nv |
| 22:55.07 | ratrace | here's what I do. I run FF as another user and it's AA enforced. That way it can't access things it shouldn't even if it exec's arbitrary code. it can't even access things it shouldn't even if it becomes root. however ... it can compromise stuff through xorg exploits, gpu exploits and direct kernel (Syscall) exploits |
| 22:55.17 | queip | AA is mostly a meme btw |
| 22:55.34 | ratrace | so the first level is sufficient for me. things that I mustn't allow even in the second part, is behind kvm hypervisor. |
| 22:55.47 | ratrace | the third level of security is airgapped |
| 22:55.55 | ratrace | duno what's is so meme-y about AA |
| 22:56.04 | ratrace | it does its job and does it well. |
| 22:56.05 | queip | grsec was the real deal but due to Linus and/or Spender(?) heaving heads stucke in their ego/ass (both depending on personal views) we don't have anything as good anymore |
| 22:56.46 | queip | ratrace: it's a blacklist instead of a whitelist. it blocks few things with few mechanism while not protecting dozens of other avenues of attacks |
| 22:57.04 | ratrace | queip: actually it's a whitelist, but at specific program/profile level |
| 22:57.12 | queip | grsec was protecting ioports, kmem and probably that ring0 stuff. aa doesn't do anything like that |
| 22:57.22 | ratrace | ie. it has no concept of selinux strict security mode where unconfined_t is not allowed |
| 22:57.49 | queip | ratrace: read docs on pax and grsecurity to realize apparmor lacks 90% of it |
| 22:58.05 | ratrace | aa doesn't do anything like that but ..... AA ..... is all we got. grsec is paywalled. selinux is too damn difficult to manage ref policies for, ousside of RHEL family |
| 22:58.14 | ratrace | queip: I actually used grsec exclusively until 4.9 :) |
| 22:58.16 | queip | yeah that's what I said |
| 22:58.18 | ratrace | even RBAC |
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| 22:58.27 | queip | linux security failed, thx Torv/Spender :/ |
| 22:59.08 | ratrace | so for what AA does ... being a path based MAC? it does it well |
| 22:59.15 | queip | we can probably conclude open source security failed, nothing does anything like that |
| 22:59.27 | ratrace | it's also growing dbus policing capabilities, ther's caps and there will be more granularity, they say, with networking in the future releases |
| 22:59.34 | queip | all we can do is put few obstables on the way |
| 22:59.40 | Taserface | umm, ioport are already blocked for non-root users? |
| 22:59.47 | Taserface | same with kmem |
| 22:59.58 | queip | Taserface: pretty sure it was blocked also from root |
| 23:00.02 | queip | yea |
| 23:00.07 | ratrace | Taserface: unfortunate truth is that grsec has a few valuable gems that are missing in mainline |
| 23:00.13 | ratrace | quite a few... |
| 23:00.49 | queip | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:00.55 | ratrace | it erred on the side of security, crashes and kernel panics were frequent (when I used it) but that exposed misbehaving programs |
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| 23:07.20 | foxide | Love how we're confusing kernel security patches with a MAC framework, as if they're intended to overlap at all. |
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| 23:09.33 | ratrace | we're not. RBAC is part of grsec |
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| 23:11.10 | mangix | hello, I'm trying to install cmake from stretch-backports but I'm getting a strange error |
| 23:11.20 | mangix | cmake : Depends: libarchive13 (>= 3.3.3) but 3.2.2-2+deb9u2 is to be installed |
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| 23:11.47 | ratrace | !frankendebian |
| 23:11.47 | dpkg | When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall> |
| 23:13.18 | mangix | figured it out |
| 23:13.35 | mangix | there's apparently stretch-backportsd and stretch-backports-sloppy ... |
| 23:15.13 | ratrace | beware of sloppy, might break the upgrade path. _will_ break it |
| 23:15.33 | queip | foxide: grsec is RBAC, plus PAX. they are together because without PAX hardening the RBAC is kind of pointless. |
| 23:16.27 | mangix | ratrace: doesn't matter. this is a temporary VM. |
| 23:16.39 | ratrace | queip: and various kernel patches |
| 23:17.02 | foxide | queip: None of which is MAC. Again, grsec/pax and apparmor don't do any of the same stuff. |
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| 23:17.37 | ratrace | eh RBAC is MAC |
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| 23:20.58 | queip | foxide: RBAC is mandatory access control. Very advanced, too. |
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| 23:39.54 | mentor | What is MAC? |
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| 23:49.11 | jmcnaught | mentor: it stands for Mandatory Access Control |
| 23:49.37 | mentor | jmcnaught: What does it mean? |
| 23:49.42 | cookta2012 | pardon me for being a nimwit I have done lsb_release -a and it is saying im on v 10 am i doing something wrong im trying to ensure i am up to date 10.8 |
| 23:50.13 | sney | cookta2012: lsb_release is semi-deprecated, check 'cat /etc/debian_version' instead |
| 23:50.13 | jmcnaught | mentor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_access_control |
| 23:50.15 | cookta2012 | it is either not showing the minor version or |
| 23:50.24 | petn-randall | !buster sources.list |
| 23:50.25 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main", and optionally "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <buster/updates> <buster-updates> and "man sources.list". |
| 23:50.32 | cookta2012 | got it |
| 23:50.40 | petn-randall | cookta2012: You should have those in your sources.list. ^^^ |
| 23:50.40 | cookta2012 | so now i know im on 10.8 |
| 23:51.12 | cookta2012 | has apache version 2.4.46 not made it into mainline? |
| 23:51.38 | cookta2012 | 2.4.38 is all i have |
| 23:51.40 | sney | ,v apache2 |
| 23:51.41 | judd | Package: apache2 on amd64 -- jessie: 2.4.10-10+deb8u12; jessie-security: 2.4.10-10+deb8u16; stretch: 2.4.25-3+deb9u9; stretch-security: 2.4.25-3+deb9u9; buster: 2.4.38-3+deb10u4; buster-security: 2.4.38-3+deb10u4; stretch-backports-sloppy: 2.4.43-1~bpo9+1; buster-backports: 2.4.46-4~bpo10+1; bullseye: 2.4.46-4; sid: 2.4.46-4 |
| 23:52.33 | cookta2012 | got it. gotta install it from backports |
| 23:52.41 | sney | cookta2012: you can get 2.4.46 from buster-backports if you need new features. security/bugfix improvements from newer apache were likely included in 2.4.38-3+deb10u4 |
| 23:53.19 | mentor | sighs |
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| 23:53.27 | mentor | MAC and RBAC are somewhat orthogonal |
| 23:53.40 | mentor | Mandatory access control is simply access control that can't be changed. |
| 23:53.43 | cookta2012 | does 2.4.38 have acmev2 in the mod_md module? |
| 23:54.02 | ratrace | mentor: not really. RBAC is a subset of MAC, if you want to get pedantic |
| 23:54.27 | ratrace | the Mandatory part means that every subject -> context -> object relationship has to be explicitly described adn allowed |
| 23:54.40 | mentor | ratrace: No. |
| 23:55.00 | ratrace | a moment ago you had to ask what is MAC. now you think you know something about it? lol |
| 23:55.51 | ratrace | while DAC relies on users and groups, in a MAC uids are effectively meaningless outside of transition policies |
| 23:55.55 | mentor | ratrace: I was hoping that in explaining it that you might realise you were incorrect in your preconceptions |
| 23:56.09 | ratrace | a MAC policy doesn't care if you're root. it cares about explicit subject -> contxt -> object relationship. |
| 23:56.35 | ratrace | is a process with PID=123 allowed to read object of type file at path /xy/zzy, in the given policy context |
| 23:57.14 | mentor | No. |
| 23:57.16 | ratrace | ye |
| 23:57.56 | ratrace | and to think a few minutes ago you didn't even know what a MAC is and now, one glanced through wikipedia article later ... we're arguing if RBAC is a MAC or not. lololololol. |
| 23:58.09 | mentor | It's notably meaningless in Linux and Unix contexts where the kernel ultimately trusts uid 0 |
| 23:58.33 | ratrace | except it's not meaningless because that same kernel supports the concept of LSM |
| 23:58.57 | mentor | ratrace: "where the kernel ultimately trusts uid 0" |
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| 23:59.20 | ratrace | it is not meaningless. the trust is not absolute |
| 23:59.34 | mentor | ratrace: Not ultimate, then? |
| 23:59.53 | ratrace | so what are you saying here? that selinux, for example, doesn't work? |
