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| 00:28.43 | jack2019 | NO_PUBKEY XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX when install proxmox |
| 00:28.55 | jack2019 | debian buster |
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| 00:51.53 | aminvakil | jack2019: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Install_Proxmox_VE_on_Debian_Buster#Adapt_your_sources.list |
| 00:52.01 | aminvakil | also there is a ##proxmox channel |
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| 01:31.02 | dannylee | ok i got Debian Buster working good...but some website wont let me open up the source with konqueror...but midori will let me view source and edit...in the file manager i just set my default editor as emacs...i'm all set to hack the Government...i;m afraid of newer version of os...they just don"t like hackers...buster is a bit better than i thought... |
| 01:31.42 | jaggz | dannylee, wow.. what? what site? |
| 01:32.33 | dannylee | nsa fbi defense.gov |
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| 01:33.32 | jaggz | what.. so if I go to defense.gov alone? |
| 01:34.02 | dannylee | ok they just don"t like me to see there source code...but it all right...they are American t000.. |
| 01:34.25 | jaggz | dannylee, it doesn't make sense -- not something I've heard of. I can view source in ff and konq |
| 01:34.49 | jaggz | the line length is longer than konquerer's popup of the kate text editor allows so it gives me a warning, but it loads and shows it fine |
| 01:34.57 | jaggz | (aside from possibly cropping those lines) |
| 01:35.38 | dannylee | ok maybe i done something wrong during the installation...remember that i might be stupid |
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| 01:37.09 | dannylee | gedit will let me see every thing...emacs is still my choice |
| 01:38.08 | dannylee | i"m not really hacking the gov...i just want to see the source code |
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| 01:40.21 | dannylee | i did install allot of editor an software...maybe i have a conflict.. |
| 01:42.54 | dannylee | ok but my other debian machine is set up differently...but my new machine has a mirror in the software repository... |
| 01:43.41 | dannylee | update might fix my problem... |
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| 03:04.39 | ServChan | hey best hackproof distro ever created and finalized https://ws.onehub.com/workspaces/1285800/files or kalilix.us which is in progress |
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| 03:06.59 | themill | ServChan: doesn't sound very related to debian user support; spam elsewhere, thanks |
| 03:08.02 | kryten | They did.. |
| 03:10.58 | SponiX | Unit193: if you got em ... thanks :) |
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| 08:41.53 | Lope | `grep 'model name' /proc/cpuinfo | head -n 1` shows "model name: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core Processor" |
| 08:42.28 | Lope | But in a VM, the CPU name shows up as a more generalized "model name: AMD EPYC-Rome Processor" |
| 08:42.38 | shtrb | What was the name of a FF extension that used youtube-dl and external player to play videos instead of the built in media player ? I looked at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-dlforextension but that look windows specific |
| 08:42.41 | shtrb | ? |
| 08:42.41 | Lope | How can I get that general name from my CPU on the host? |
| 08:43.14 | shtrb | Lope, you see data that your virtualization software is declaring |
| 08:43.59 | Lope | shtrb, livirt |
| 08:44.31 | shtrb | Lope, libvirt can and will declare different CPUs to your VMS |
| 08:45.28 | Lope | shtrb, thanks, I'll ask the libvirt guys |
| 08:46.30 | shtrb | Perhaps I did not explained properly, when you declare a VM in libvirt, libvirt would virtualize a cpu (like the other devices like your graphical card) |
| 08:47.01 | shtrb | Try selecting "Copy cpu configuration" |
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| 08:53.36 | ratrace | Lope: you need cpu=host qemu-kvm option and whatever the corresponding libvirt option is |
| 08:53.53 | ratrace | even then it's still virtualized, the hypervisor might block certain instructions |
| 08:54.07 | Lope | ratrace, I have something to that effect, yeah. |
| 08:54.17 | Lope | I just want to figure out how to get the generalized name. |
| 08:54.43 | ratrace | that's windows or linux VM? |
| 08:54.46 | Lope | Without actually spinning up a VM and grabbing it from the VM |
| 08:54.50 | Lope | Linux VM |
| 08:55.00 | ratrace | however, Ryzen != EPYC |
| 08:55.02 | Lope | `grep 'model name' /proc/cpuinfo | head -n 1` on host and guest |
| 08:55.11 | Lope | It actually is, hey. |
| 08:55.17 | Lope | I mean same core architecture. |
| 08:55.38 | Lope | Just some stuff is disabled, like RAM encryption. |
| 08:55.46 | ratrace | "well yes", but functionally not. they come from the same waffer. like xeon and core are, but they're not the same cpus functionally |
| 08:56.20 | ratrace | "some stuff disabled" can make a world of difference :) |
| 08:56.30 | Lope | Well, libvirt tells the VM that AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core Processor is AMD EPYC-Rome Processor |
| 08:56.37 | Lope | hahahaha yeah |
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| 08:57.05 | ratrace | I don't know if libvirt is telling qemu-kvm that, or qemu-kvm is by itself |
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| 08:58.16 | ratrace | Lope: see here: https://qemu-project.gitlab.io/qemu/system/qemu-cpu-models.html |
| 08:58.24 | ratrace | it's qemu-kvm doing |
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| 09:02.41 | Lope | thanks, yeah, I see :) |
| 09:02.52 | Lope | The closest I've gotten is `virsh cpu-models x86_64` |
| 09:03.08 | Lope | But that just lists a bunch of generalized models that my host CAN claim to be. |
| 09:03.18 | *** join/#debian v01d4lph4 (~v01d4lph4@223.190.20.92) |
| 09:03.25 | Lope | But doesn't say which one will be used for host passthru etc. |
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| 09:05.39 | ratrace | Lope: why is this important anyway? isn't host passthrough sufficient for your use case? |
| 09:05.54 | Lope | virsh vcpuinfo wants a host. |
| 09:06.40 | Lope | oh, but even with a domain, it doesn't show the name. |
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| 09:07.00 | Lope | ratrace, it is, but I'm compiling software with -march=native like a good gentoo wannabe. |
| 09:07.17 | Lope | And then I make a copy of the binary with the model name of the CPU |
| 09:07.19 | ratrace | Lope: so? the model name has nothing to do with -march |
| 09:07.19 | Lope | hahahahahahahah |
| 09:07.28 | Lope | yeah, no. |
| 09:07.29 | ratrace | no, gcc is detecting featuress specifically |
| 09:07.37 | Lope | It's just cos later I'll automagically select the binary. |
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| 09:07.49 | Lope | And thought it would be cool to be able to run my script on the host or in a VM. |
| 09:08.37 | ratrace | Lope: doesn't cpuinfo give you the correct cpu family and model numbers? |
| 09:09.23 | Lope | you mean /proc/cpuinfo |
| 09:09.25 | ratrace | yes |
| 09:09.37 | Lope | it gives a different model name. |
| 09:09.44 | Lope | The features might actually be the same though. |
| 09:09.46 | ratrace | I asked about family and model number, not name |
| 09:09.57 | Lope | oh, let me see. |
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| 09:10.13 | ratrace | both are numbers, not text like "EPYC", that's "model name" |
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| 09:10.26 | Lope | CPU family 25 |
| 09:10.28 | Lope | hahahahaha |
| 09:10.34 | Lope | very human readable. |
| 09:10.42 | ratrace | that's the whole point |
| 09:10.54 | Lope | In the VM it's family 23 |
| 09:10.56 | ratrace | model name can be different but they cpu is in the same family and model number |
| 09:11.20 | ratrace | HOWEVER .... even if you coerced 100% same model _name_, the instruction set is not equivalent |
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| 09:11.31 | ratrace | you should definitely NOT use -march=native inside VMs |
| 09:11.56 | Lope | the model on host also different between host and VM. |
| 09:12.12 | Lope | so different family and model |
| 09:12.23 | ratrace | right, so -march=native is a lie |
| 09:12.32 | Lope | LIES, DAMN LIES! |
| 09:12.32 | ratrace | you'll end up with software that can't run |
| 09:12.35 | m4r35n357 | Hi all,, Jigdo is failing on the 5th (& 6th) DVD, error is "couldn't connect to 78.129.164.123 port 59076: Connection timed out" |
| 09:12.43 | Lope | ratrace, well, it runs inside the VM haha |
| 09:12.50 | Lope | I bet it would run on the host, too. |
| 09:13.05 | m4r35n357 | command is: jigdo-lite https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dvd/debian-10.9.0-amd64-DVD-5.jigdo |
| 09:13.19 | Lope | ratrace, actually, opposite to what you're saying, march native will result in software that's more compatible than if it were compiled on host. |
| 09:13.37 | m4r35n357 | connects, logs in as anonymous, then times out on every file |
| 09:13.39 | ratrace | Lope: no, and I speak from experience |
| 09:13.44 | Lope | Because the VM's vcpu's are generalized for the sake of vulnerability mitigation, and ease of live migration. |
| 09:14.06 | ratrace | Lope: problem is the cpu is still virtualized. gcc detects wrongly the supported instruction set. even if "works" now, one of future rebuilds might brick it |
| 09:14.29 | ratrace | Lope: I've had that happen more than once with -march=native builds inside teh VMs, even with host passthrough of the cpu. |
| 09:14.42 | Lope | ah, so what march should I use for a VM on 5950x? |
| 09:14.44 | ratrace | all of a sudden, one day, youget an invalid opcode error and the thing crashes |
| 09:14.52 | ratrace | Lope: generic |
| 09:14.57 | Lope | generic! |
| 09:14.58 | Lope | fuck that bro |
| 09:15.00 | ratrace | and then use mtune for specific model |
| 09:15.01 | Lope | slow ass! |
| 09:15.05 | Lope | oh... |
| 09:15.08 | Lope | what is mtune? |
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| 09:15.35 | ratrace | optimization hints |
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| 09:15.45 | Lope | seems a bit weird that stuff compiled in a VM would be so fragile? |
| 09:15.53 | Lope | isn't the whole point of VM's portability? |
| 09:16.10 | Lope | I mean, that's SPECIFICALLY the entire reason I run software in this VM. |
| 09:16.26 | Lope | So I've got a generic binary, but also a EPYC-Rome binary. |
| 09:16.42 | Lope | So if things go to shit, I can run the generic binary. |
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| 09:17.02 | Lope | (Like if I boot it on my laptop, and want to run it without re-compiling) |
| 09:17.51 | ratrace | the whole point of VM is _virtual_ _hardware_ |
| 09:17.57 | ratrace | -march=native is a lie in virtualized environments |
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| 09:18.42 | ratrace | "gcc: oh, hey, I can use this instruction!" "kvm: no you cain't" "gcc: but it's in the reported cpu model" "kvm: no the cpu is virtualized, I only pass through some features" "gcc: but..." "kvm: no" |
| 09:19.30 | ratrace | Lope: you're actually trying to do the _opposite_ of what VMs stand for. you're trying to nativize hardware for "performance" lie^Wbenefits |
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| 09:21.15 | ratrace | Lope: also, -march=native really just enables individual flags. run this in the VM: gcc -march=native -Q --help=target |
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| 09:21.32 | ratrace | then compare to the SAME output on the host. observe difference. cry yourself to sleep. |
| 09:22.15 | ratrace | HOWEVER .... you CAN, specify individual -mXXXX options for some features that are NOT virtualized and are pass'ed through. options that might speed SIMD ops like avx, avx2 and friends |
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| 09:23.37 | ratrace | in other words, decide on the _minimum_ feature set you want to support based on hardware you expect this to run. this is what some distros are doing recently, like fedora, and suites like Mesa |
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| 09:47.41 | Xalys | How can I figure out which apt package installed an alternative? |
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| 09:50.29 | ratrace | Xalys: apt-file search on the target of the alternative's symlink? |
| 09:52.04 | Xalys | ratrace: I tried that, but I tested a few packages, and couldn't find the symlinks in /etc/alternatives in apt-file search (are symlinks in there?) |
| 09:53.54 | Xalys | # apt-file search /etc/alternatives |
| 09:53.55 | Xalys | dpkg: /etc/alternatives/README |
| 09:53.56 | dpkg | no idea, Xalys |
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| 10:00.15 | Lope | ratrace, thanks for the tips. I believe ClearLinux compiles everything for intel core 2nd gen and up. |
| 10:00.20 | Lope | Broadwell, or something. |
| 10:00.41 | Lope | One could probably do something like -march=broadwell |
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| 10:02.20 | littlebit | hi people, I have nextcloud running on my ubuntu-server with this configuration: https://dpaste.com/882D73SNL my issue is that when I enter in the url of the browser: |
| 10:02.22 | littlebit | http://server.example.com I get the floder listgings and not the nextcloud page. Only when I enter server.example.com/nextcloud can someone help me to point out what am I missing here?! |
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| 10:05.56 | Lope | ratrace, thanks for the brilliant command: gcc -march=native -Q --help=target |
| 10:10.29 | ratrace | Lope: clearlinux also adds custom patches to packages |
| 10:11.03 | ratrace | yes, you can do -march=broadwell if broadwell is the minimum supported set you want |
| 10:11.19 | ratrace | personally, I wouldn't use -march at all inside VMs, but -mtune |
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| 10:12.08 | Lope | interesting, so what's the fundamental diff between -march=znver2 and -mtune=znver2 |
| 10:12.23 | Lope | is the -mtune version going to be slower? |
| 10:12.29 | Lope | but more compatible? |
| 10:12.33 | ratrace | Lope: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10559275/gcc-how-is-march-different-from-mtune |
| 10:13.19 | ratrace | ideally you want specific -mXXXX features taht your CPUs definitely support, especially for SIMD friendly packages, which is mostly multimedia thingies |
| 10:14.05 | ratrace | in my experience, -march=native is not worth the trouble for vast majority of packages. few % speed bump if at all. however it shines for specific packages that want SIMD, but those are _often_ autodetecting at runtime |
| 10:14.49 | ratrace | sometimes not. eg, -march=native vs no -march yielded 50% improvement for me in python PIL compilation .. but I tested baremetal only, dunno how that'll fare in VMs |
| 10:15.06 | ratrace | as I mentioned, since I started getting invalid opcode errors in VMs, I stopped -march=native |
| 10:15.13 | Lope | it looks like setting an older -march will make it run slower. |
| 10:15.21 | Lope | Because it means it won't use newer instructions. |
| 10:15.34 | ratrace | it's not as clear cut as that |
| 10:16.07 | Lope | fair enough |
| 10:16.18 | Lope | well, yolo, going to run the native stuff in my VM and see how it goes :) |
| 10:16.24 | Lope | it's not for production, it's for dev. |
| 10:16.27 | Lope | Dev speed. |
| 10:16.39 | ratrace | it's pointless, but it's your L to YOLO :) |
| 10:17.01 | Lope | you say pointless, but stuff might run 50% faster |
| 10:17.05 | Lope | that's not pointless |
| 10:17.30 | Lope | I like it when stuff breaks. |
| 10:17.38 | Lope | Cos if stuff doesn't break, I have to do actual work. |
| 10:18.01 | Lope | It would make my devops position more redundant, if everything worked. |
| 10:18.20 | Lope | -march is there for me, really. |
| 10:18.46 | Lope | -march=do some work before march. |
| 10:19.02 | ratrace | yes, I know you devops folks are making up reasons for employment. got rid of dev ops ppl in my company some time ago, never looked back :) /no-offense |
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| 10:21.27 | ratrace | the guy was literally creating issues .. whether deliberately or by sheer lack of knowledge and skills, thinking nodejs is an answer to everything, I don't know. but the moment we got rid of him and the damned nodejs, guess waht: the issues disappeared :) |
| 10:21.41 | Xalys | lol |
| 10:21.59 | Xalys | in my experience kiss is usually an unknown concept to most devops ppl |
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| 10:22.56 | sigint | devops is so 2016 |
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| 10:23.37 | ratrace | like in this example, you no NOT want -march=native system wide. you want to target specific packages with specific -mXXX options, and benchmark to actually see improvement. |
| 10:24.03 | ratrace | counterintuitively, march=native and shoving -O3 everywhere (that many love to do, thinking --zomg-fast), will actually slow down code in some cases |
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| 10:31.53 | Lope | ragequits and compiles node.js with march=native -O3 into the kernel |
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| 10:34.16 | Lope | jokes aside, just experimenting. you don't know unless you try. |
| 10:35.23 | Lope | Trying to speed up processes in the development workflow. |
| 10:35.48 | ratrace | -march=native is not going to speed up development workflow one bit |
| 10:36.29 | Lope | how do you know? |
| 10:36.56 | Lope | when I write code I have to wait for crap to recompile/transpile etc |
| 10:37.08 | Lope | before I can see the result. |
| 10:37.17 | Lope | When debugging I have to do that repeatedly |
| 10:37.24 | ratrace | because I've been running systems taht are built generic and march=native, baremetal, for decades, and I have experience. |
| 10:37.50 | ratrace | also so you are talking about speeding up compilation? |
| 10:37.52 | Lope | okay, well I haven't hehe. Want to let my shiny new CPU stretch it's legs |
| 10:38.02 | Lope | eh, it's meteor, which runs on node.js |
| 10:38.09 | Lope | hehehe, your favorite. |
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| 10:38.37 | Lope | When you change code it re-babels a whole lot of shit and god knows what else. |
| 10:38.42 | ratrace | march=native is okay for baremetal. you build software for that specific hardware, speeds up things where possible, that's okay. |
| 10:39.05 | Lope | as I mentioned before, this is just for my development environment, not production. |
| 10:39.14 | ratrace | this is probably becoming very much offtopic for #debian tho. your Q was about, I presume, kvm settings on debian host |
| 10:39.57 | ratrace | but in the development process where you're thinking for hundreds of thousands of miliseconds between two lines of code.... that 1-2ms speedup you gain with native is insignificant :) |
| 10:40.15 | ratrace | also, afaik gcc itself doesn't get much improved if built with march=native itself. |
| 10:40.55 | ratrace | you'll probably gain much more if you ran with mitigations=off* *) Disclaimer: understand what that does first :) |
| 10:42.25 | Lope | haha, you think mitigations=off helps on 5950x? |
| 10:42.40 | Lope | I know it actually hurts gaming performance, when you do it in windows. |
| 10:42.51 | ratrace | yes, AMD _is_ vulnerable to some spectre variants |
| 10:42.51 | Lope | Well, according to "Tech yes City" |
| 10:42.58 | Lope | I know |
| 10:43.09 | Lope | But apparently having mitigations on makes the CPU faster haha. |
| 10:43.26 | Lope | Probably because optimizations are mixed in with mitigations. |
| 10:43.30 | ratrace | what? |
| 10:43.37 | ratrace | [citation needed] |
| 10:44.11 | Lope | According to the youtuber, "Tech yes city" disabling mitigations makes intel CPU's run games faster, but makes AMD CPU's (3000 and up) run games slower. |
| 10:44.44 | Lope | that's just games, of course. Every workload is "different" |
| 10:45.17 | ratrace | according to phoronix, games are not impacted by mitigations at all |
| 10:45.55 | ratrace | phoronix numbers should not be used to make generalized statements, but at the individual test level, those numbers are more or less usable |
| 10:46.15 | ratrace | ie, games are gpu intensive, not syscall intensive (where there's impact) |
| 10:46.23 | Lope | ratrace, according to tech yes city, it drops FPS quite a lot in some games. |
| 10:46.42 | Lope | I think up to 50% or something crazy in some cases, for old gen2 Xeons etc. |
| 10:46.46 | ratrace | according to phoronix, it doesn't. so .... two sources, wildly opposite conclusions. TheMoreYouKnow(tm) |
| 10:47.14 | ratrace | THENAGAIN ..... _windows_ is a kind of its own so who knows what's going on there..... |
| 10:47.30 | Lope | CPU is also very important for games though |
| 10:47.40 | ratrace | on debian ... with steam ... I've ran tests myself, showing FPS and running with mitigations=off and without. no difference in games I ran |
| 10:48.01 | ratrace | Lope: yes, but mitigations don't affect cpu workloads uniformly. they're specific to syscalls and, more precisely, context switches |
| 10:48.27 | Lope | yeah, the effect varied from one game to the next. |
| 10:48.36 | ratrace | entrance, exit of functions, context switches, ... a for-loop crunching numbers is not gonna be affected by mitigations, unless it does a lot of syscalls and function calls |
| 10:48.40 | Lope | Some games only saw a 2% drop on intel in windows with mitigations on. |
| 10:48.49 | Lope | Some I think even were the same. |
| 10:49.16 | Lope | Of course, pro youtubers will make the CPU do the heavy lifting when they test this sort of thing. |
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| 10:49.49 | Lope | So they'll run a Nvidia 3090 GPU to eliminate the GPU bottleneck. |
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| 10:50.07 | Lope | You obviously didn't do that, so in your case you likely had more GPU bottlenecking. |
| 10:50.59 | ratrace | depends on the game. some peg the GPU, some peg the CPU more. |
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| 10:51.10 | ratrace | but pegging CPU doesn't automatically mean bad performance due to mitigations. |
| 10:51.11 | Lope | also, as you mentioned you tested on Linux. The linux kernel people are obsessed with performance and have changed things a lot to reduce the impact of mitigations. |
| 10:51.21 | ratrace | specific, syscall heavy, workload has the most impact |
| 10:51.21 | Lope | Whereas I don't think the windows people are as concerned. |
| 10:51.48 | Lope | It's not like Intel can fix microsoft's slow code to cover their ass, (hide/reduce performance loss of mitigations) like they can on Linux. |
| 10:52.48 | Lope | As an example of this, windows was massively slower than Linux on CPUs like 2990WX or whatever it was called, for like 2 years. |
| 10:53.09 | Lope | They don't seem to care about performance in anywhere near the same quantity as Linux folks. |
| 10:53.41 | Lope | Windows wasn't NUMA aware or whatever. |
| 10:53.51 | ratrace | I don't think it's lack of caring, but specific NT kernel design they can't really work around |
| 10:53.57 | Lope | It kept moving processes across NUMA nodes constantly. |
| 10:54.08 | Lope | nah, windows eventually fixed their shit. |
| 10:54.13 | ratrace | it is, after all, a hybrid thing between microkernel and a monolothic on, no? |
| 10:55.00 | Lope | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2LOMTpCtLA |
| 10:55.19 | Lope | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSSAFqzbKgg |
| 10:55.41 | Lope | See 2nd link first. |
| 10:55.44 | ratrace | maybe we better get back on topic of debian :) |
| 10:55.49 | Lope | Yeah |
| 10:56.02 | Lope | oh right, work, what was that concept. Better do it, ffs. |
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| 11:15.07 | jack2019 | how to auto boot buster root luks system encrypted? |
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| 11:18.55 | another | what do you mean by "auto boot"? |
| 11:20.55 | jack2019 | another, avoiding password prompt |
| 11:22.29 | another | use a keyfile form e.g. a USB drive |
| 11:22.38 | another | s/form/from/ |
| 11:23.27 | jack2019 | another, with out usb? |
| 11:24.55 | another | well, you need an unencrypted keyfile. so if you put it on an unencypted disk you might as well not use LUKS at all |
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| 11:27.48 | nkuttler | jack2019: why without usb? |
| 11:28.15 | nkuttler | jack2019: is this some theoretical homework assignment, or.. ? |
| 11:29.06 | another | do you want to boot a headless machine in a datacenter? |
| 11:29.49 | ratrace | jack2019: that's pointless.... why encrypt if the key is available on the same system, to automatically unlock on boot? |
| 11:30.25 | ratrace | jack2019: if you want proper automatic unlocking, you might need something like a keyserver and custom keyscript that uses the keyserver |
| 11:30.57 | nkuttler | or dropbear |
| 11:31.11 | ratrace | or a USB stick, or some other storage available on the server, that you can unplug. |
| 11:31.25 | ratrace | dropbear is just a sshd. I guess you then mean to unlock via ssh, but that's not automatic |
| 11:31.48 | nkuttler | nothing is automatic unless you automate it |
| 11:31.55 | ratrace | the idea here is that you encrypt ONLY (and ONLY!) to make data unavailable once the disks power down |
| 11:32.04 | mspe | or full-fledged openssh-server ^^ |
| 11:32.17 | ratrace | you can't automate unlocking via ssh. |
| 11:32.32 | nkuttler | how much do you want to bet? |
| 11:32.38 | mspe | you totally can |
| 11:32.52 | ratrace | sigh.... _something_ or someone needs to initate it |
| 11:33.14 | ratrace | the point of "automatic unlocking" here is that it .... automatically... unlocks on boot, with no external agent actively ssh-ing in |
| 11:33.37 | nkuttler | that's your constraint, not jack2019's |
| 11:33.46 | ratrace | CAN you do it theoretically? oh yes. with a lot of convoluted checks like regular pings so if the server goes off or is somehow singalling reboot, you ssh in and unlock even with automation |
| 11:34.11 | ratrace | OR .... make it as simple as using a keyserver and a keyscript. |
| 11:34.18 | ratrace | otherwise it's not "automatic" unlocking on boot. |
| 11:34.45 | jack2019 | ratrace, keyserver? |
| 11:35.08 | ratrace | jack2019: yes, a server that has the keys that your keyscript will fetch over, say, https |
| 11:36.07 | ratrace | there's a whole package that can do that. mandos |
| 11:36.30 | ratrace | doesn't seem to be packaged on debian tho |
| 11:36.48 | ratrace | ,v mandos |
| 11:36.49 | judd | Package: mandos on amd64 -- jessie: 1.6.9-1; stretch: 1.7.15-1; bullseye: 1.8.14-1; sid: 1.8.14-1 |
| 11:36.53 | ratrace | oh, bullseye |
| 11:37.09 | jack2019 | ratrace, any time I want to reboot the system, I have to upload the key to https? correct? |
| 11:37.11 | ratrace | _however_ I prefer doing this with a custom keyscript and a trusted keyserver |
| 11:37.29 | ratrace | jack2019: not if you set up the server to permanently have the key for download |
| 11:37.54 | ratrace | jack2019: again, it's very important to understand the threat model here: you ONLY do this so that data becomes unavailable once the disk powers down and is removed from the chassis |
| 11:38.24 | ratrace | so you don't store the key on the same disk. you can store it on a separate USB, separate disk, or remotely on a keyserver. |
| 11:38.46 | jack2019 | ratrace, thank you. |
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| 11:40.50 | aliceussr | Hello, firends! Good day! |
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| 12:01.09 | another | ratrace: doesn't mandos just move the problem to keeping the TLS and PGP key save? |
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| 12:21.47 | ratrace | another: irrelevant for this threat model |
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| 12:22.31 | another | which is? |
| 12:23.35 | ratrace | encryption is only used for data at rest. protects data once the disks leave the chassis |
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| 12:23.58 | ratrace | for that use case, you can't store the key on the disk itself, but you can keep it on a permanently attached USB stick, or another drive, or remotely on a keyserver |
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| 12:25.18 | another | i assume you retire the key in the keyserver, as soon as the drive is retired? |
| 12:25.34 | ratrace | that assumes you can actually access the data on it to wipe it out |
| 12:26.07 | ratrace | what about disk failures where you can't mount the fs to wipe it? but someone wiht forensic tools CAN extract the key and thus data from the drive? |
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| 12:26.39 | another | err.. i'm afraid i don't follow |
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| 12:27.05 | ratrace | what about SSDs where linear sector address is pointless and there's no guarantee you actually deleted anything unless you exec'd some sort of firmware safe delete ... which assumes the disk is operational |
| 12:27.15 | another | the kes is on the keyserver. the disk holds an unencypted boot+TLS+pgp |
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| 12:27.49 | ratrace | another: this is really very simple: disc encryption with keys on the same disk is pointless. |
| 12:28.16 | ratrace | no ifs, or buts, or whethers. so in that case, if the user wants auto unlock on boot, the key has to be elswhere. on another storage medium, on a remote server, wherever. |
| 12:28.35 | another | ... i get the feeling there is a communications problem |
| 12:28.42 | ratrace | mandos is just one tool for that. I'm not familiar with its internals, I just know it exists, and I mentioned it in that context. I personally use custom keyscripts for that |
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| 12:30.01 | another | ok. my question was more specificly about mandoc. |
| 12:30.22 | another | though, out of curiosity: how do your scripts work? |
| 12:30.41 | ratrace | the key is curl'ed from a https URL and fed directly into cryptsetup, it doesn't touch the drives |
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| 12:36.54 | another | webserver only reachable from within your network? |
| 12:37.31 | ratrace | no |
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| 12:40.11 | sigint | ratrace, what prevents an attacker from stealing a drive and issueing a curl to your service to get its key? |
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| 12:43.12 | ratrace | sigint: in our case, a whitelist of IPs that can query for key; and the key is available only when we make it such, which we do on planned reboots. |
| 12:43.47 | ratrace | also, an attacker stealing teh server from a secured rack in the datacenter where we host the servers is also NOT part of the threat model |
| 12:44.10 | ratrace | such attacker can attack the /boot partition or the bios or uefi and find out the key in all sorts of ways |
| 12:44.55 | sigint | makes sense |
| 12:45.21 | jack2019 | ratrace, in case of middleman, can grab the key? |
| 12:45.41 | ratrace | depends how well you protect it. for https, use your own CA and don't use public CA lists |
| 12:45.51 | qman__ | HTTPS with proper TLS and forward security, I hope |
| 12:46.40 | qman__ | the CA doesn't really matter, but there's no reason to complicate it with a public CA |
| 12:46.41 | ratrace | and of course that. but ... if your threat model involves actors that can attack your TLS ... you have much bigger problems and that encryption is probably worhtless |
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| 12:47.41 | m4r35n357 | Hi all, Jigdo is failing on the 5th (& 6th) DVD, error is "couldn't connect to 78.129.164.123 port 59076: Connection timed out" |
| 12:47.43 | m4r35n357 | command is: jigdo-lite https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dvd/debian-10.9.0-amd64-DVD-5.jigdo |
| 12:47.45 | m4r35n357 | connects, logs in as anonymous, then times out on every file |
| 12:47.50 | m4r35n357 | any ideas? |
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| 12:49.51 | ratrace | qman__: problem with public CA framework is that .... it's worthless for a wide range of non-tinfoil-hat situations. it's extremely weak for anything other than protecting against noobs with no ability to rubber-hose a CA into issuing fake certs |
| 12:50.26 | ratrace | one can assume that all the chinese and other shady country CAs that inhabit all the major browser and distros CA lists ..... are not to be trusted |
| 12:50.53 | jack2019 | m4r35n357, it looks like dns problem, ping -c 3 debian.org |
| 12:51.28 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, that works |
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| 12:52.19 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, so what is the DNS problem? |
| 12:52.26 | qman__ | maybe, but that's not relevant here, all that matters is that your certificate is from a CA sufficiently trustworthy to not issue someone else certs with your name, doesn't matter whether you run that CA or not |
| 12:52.53 | qman__ | the client doesn't need to trust all CAs, only the one(s) issuing your cert |
| 12:53.25 | qman__ | since browsers aren't relevant here, running your own is probably the easier way to do it |
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| 12:54.36 | ratrace | qman__: oh you mean "which CA you use doesn't matter as long as YOU can trust it" . sure. but that excludes all of the public CAs |
| 12:55.10 | ratrace | qman__: and I'm not talking about CAs issuing certs, I'm talking about CAs in your ca-certificate list |
| 12:55.33 | jack2019 | m4r35n357, if the ping result passed, is not dns problem, check your firewall |
| 12:55.55 | qman__ | it's not binary, you can ignore the chinese ones or whatever you're skeptical of and only trust the public CA that you're using |
| 12:56.03 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, the firt four DVDs were fine, and I haven't made any changes to my networking |
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| 12:57.36 | jack2019 | m4r35n357, then check the url |
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| 12:58.35 | m4r35n357 | so not sure what you are telling me . . . the template files download fine |
| 12:58.44 | ratrace | qman__: that's patently false |
| 12:58.54 | qman__ | no, it isn't |
| 12:59.31 | qman__ | there is absolutely nothing stopping you from changing which issuers you trust to only include a specific public CA |
| 12:59.33 | ratrace | qman__: well .. yes, okay, but assumes that "trust". with self signed CA and no public ones in the list, you don't need that trust |
| 12:59.53 | ratrace | qman__: true, I misunderstood what you said, sorry. |
| 13:01.59 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, the DVD 5 URL is the same as the 1, 2, 3, 4 apart from a number |
| 13:02.15 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, no evidence of any problem at my end |
| 13:04.37 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, I am pretty sure it is a Debian misconfig, wget can't find those files either! |
| 13:05.50 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, for example: ftp://ftp.uk.debian.org/debian/pool/main/n/node-is-promise/node-is-promise_2.1.0-1_all.deb |
| 13:06.18 | dvs | Oh nice! There's a 16GB stick ISO now. |
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| 13:07.21 | m4r35n357 | dvs, link? |
| 13:07.52 | m4r35n357 | looks like direct download is the only way forward ;) |
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| 13:08.23 | oxek | I only ever downloaded debian using the torrent files |
| 13:08.34 | jack2019 | m4r35n357, try to download via terminal |
| 13:09.14 | dvs | m4r35n357: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/ |
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| 13:09.59 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, wget _is_ in the terminal, not sure what you mean |
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| 13:12.53 | m4r35n357 | dvs, thx! |
| 13:13.09 | dvs | np |
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| 13:13.50 | oxek | I never understood why jigdo/metalink exist when we have torrents |
| 13:14.39 | dvs | Sometimes there are hardly any active downloads on torrents. |
| 13:15.54 | m4r35n357 | jack2019, dvs, looks like either jigdo and/or ftp.uk.debian.org are broken, 16GB downloads template but no files |
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| 13:17.59 | m4r35n357 | torrent link only has first three DVDs, which I already have (via jigdo!) |
| 13:19.05 | m4r35n357 | oxek, 14 fewer DVDs? |
| 13:19.40 | EdePopede | and we can't know if some smartasses won't start blocking torrent traffic. i mean... it's used by criminals only, amirite? |
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| 13:20.17 | dvs | slinks away |
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| 13:21.36 | oxek | to be fair, I don't know why the multiple-dvd releases of debian even exist either |
| 13:22.12 | m4r35n357 | oxek, the 16GB jigdo sounds ideal, if only . . . |
| 13:23.24 | m4r35n357 | so, either the jigdo templates are wrong, or there are no files at ftp.uk.debian.org ;) |
| 13:24.14 | m4r35n357 | I think the latter, since jigdo would break everywhere if the templates are wrong |
| 13:24.53 | m4r35n357 | I mean more likely incorrect file structure at ftp.uk |
| 13:25.49 | oxek | why not use deb.debian.org instead? |
| 13:25.58 | oxek | it's faster than ftp.uk.d.o |
| 13:27.39 | m4r35n357 | oxek, I try to use the best "canonical" source, I think that is what one is supposed to do, but I'm done being good, so I will, thanks! |
| 13:28.56 | m4r35n357 | oxek, jigdo doesn't like deb.debian.org, is that http or ftp? |
| 13:30.56 | oxek | should be regular http |
| 13:31.24 | oxek | are you using the jigdo-file package from backports? |
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| 13:32.40 | m4r35n357 | oxek, I just apt-get installed jigdo-file |
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| 13:33.38 | m4r35n357 | oxek, but that is on Ubuntu, so might be out of date. Still it worked for the first four DVDs |
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| 13:34.09 | m4r35n357 | I still think the problem is at ftp.uk...., wget couldn't see the files |
| 13:36.23 | m4r35n357 | oxek, ftp.us.debian.org works! |
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| 14:38.49 | jhutchins | m4r35n357: Why download four DVD images? Almost all installations can be completed with just the first one. |
| 14:39.28 | imMute | has always used the netinstall |
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| 14:48.36 | derpadmin | jhutchins, to have packages on DVD I suppose? |
| 14:53.16 | m4r35n357 | jhutchins, I know that, I have used the minimal ftp install many times! |
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| 14:54.38 | m4r35n357 | jhutchins, but I want a reasonably "complete" last point release that I can install & upgrade without an internet connection. |
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| 14:57.26 | jhutchins | m4r35n357: You should still only need the first one. |
| 14:57.58 | jhutchins | I don't think I've ever seen a good description of what's on each image. |
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| 15:01.07 | m4r35n357 | jhutchins, I know what I am doing, been on Debian since Hamm . . . |
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| 15:52.19 | srged | I just installed Sylpheed but I'd like to changwe the tray icon, how can I do that? |
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| 16:06.24 | karlpinc | srged: That depends on your desktop, I think. |
| 16:06.31 | srged | karlpinc: lxde |
| 16:09.40 | dob1 | any idea why using openbox with qt applications I have no borders ? |
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| 16:11.33 | karlpinc | srged: I don't know, I don't use that one. |
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| 16:14.44 | karlpinc | srged: (I poke that sort of thing with a stick until it does what I want.) |
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| 16:23.41 | karlpinc | srged: Google says there's an "icon theme tab": https://livingthelinuxlifestyle.wordpress.com/2019/10/05/how-to-configure-the-lxde-desktop-the-fast-and-easy-way/ |
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| 17:17.35 | istrive | hellow world! I hope everyone is safe... At least the social distancing is covered in chat rooms! ;) |
| 17:20.00 | istrive | I have installed PHP v7.3 (debian buster default version), enabled the module in apache2 and it shows fine the Info page (/var/www/html/info.php), what am I missing to open file in php (my website contact page for testing) |
| 17:21.07 | istrive | I alreadyi get http error 500 |
| 17:21.18 | cws | i would dig into the server/php logs to see what's going on. |
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| 17:21.54 | istrive | only php pages fails to open, all other html pages in the same folder works fine |
| 17:22.11 | istrive | I must be missing a configuration to enable php properly |
| 17:22.30 | istrive | but I don't know what exactly! |
| 17:22.46 | istrive | apache2 mod was enabled |
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| 17:44.20 | digdilem | istrive, cws has already suggested looking at the server logs. That's where the answer will be. |
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| 18:23.45 | strk | I've turned on an old rasberry PI with a Wheezy OS on the SD card |
| 18:24.03 | strk | would like to use it as a kind of external monitor for another machine |
| 18:24.32 | strk | not sure it makes any sense |
| 18:24.37 | strk | maybe not |
| 18:24.57 | strk | anyway, would like to have "Barrier" running on it, so I can control it from another computer's Mouse & Keyboard |
| 18:25.15 | sney | if you want to use your rpi with debian, you should probably start by installing a supported version: https://raspi.debian.net/ |
| 18:25.27 | sney | (that wheezy image is probably raspbian, too) |
| 18:26.25 | shtrb | strk , yes it's possible , common use case , there had been closed source to declare your pi as a lcd wall |
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| 18:26.55 | strk | "lcd wall" ? |
| 18:27.08 | strk | I actually bought a wall-mount for it too, so I must be falling in that category :) |
| 18:27.22 | strk | only lame thing is that the monitor is very small :P |
| 18:27.32 | shtrb | LCD wall , is connecting several LCD / LED screens and making it act as a single screen |
| 18:27.47 | strk | ah, nice |
| 18:28.09 | shtrb | aka video wall , it was with wheezy I think |
| 18:28.14 | strk | ok, so yes, I'd have at most 3, and not really organized in a fixed grid, but going in that direction |
| 18:28.42 | strk | for a start I might just use this rpi-attached monitor to read musical scores (I placed it over the piano) |
| 18:29.03 | strk | anyway, straight to the question: what's my best chance to have "Barrier" runnign in there ? |
| 18:29.17 | shtrb | strk, http://matthewepler.github.io/2016/01/05/piwall.html |
| 18:30.03 | strk | uhm, an rPI each screen.. nah |
| 18:30.20 | strk | this is a low-tech, reuse-what-you-have project, not anything I'd want to buy things for :) |
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| 18:32.20 | sney | barrier is in debian and it's packaged for the arm arches, so it will probably install, but if that's a very old rpi then the hardware may struggle |
| 18:32.26 | sney | who knows though |
| 18:32.27 | sney | !tias |
| 18:32.27 | dpkg | TIAS is "Try It And See". |
| 18:37.13 | shtrb | If it's wheezy it's probably rpi 1 or 2 , afaik not supported by debian |
| 18:37.18 | strk | reading up about piwall made me realize it's not what I want to do |
| 18:37.38 | strk | I don't want a single screen.. just more screen space, no problem with them being different "views" on the same computer |
| 18:38.01 | strk | barrier would be useful to not have too many keyboars/mouses so I'll have to try barrier |
| 18:38.10 | strk | sney: so you suggest to grab the oldest barrier .deb and see if it installs ? |
| 18:38.30 | shtrb | strk, I also used pi as a usb-ip hub for safe connection (when i don't trust devices) |
| 18:38.53 | shtrb | so if a device might fry up , it's better to fry up the pi then my laptop |
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| 18:39.02 | sney | strk: no, my suggestion was to install a *current* debian version from https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images/ and then install barrier with apt-get. if you want to stick with raspbian wheezy then you are on your own with that |
| 18:39.13 | strk | I just find me turning my single-monitor too many times, from one place to another, so have been thinking to just add an additional monitor |
| 18:39.24 | strk | I could use just a cable and directly connect it to the single-host |
| 18:39.38 | shtrb | strk , what's your actual goal ? |
| 18:39.38 | strk | but I thought... what's this rPI doing in the drawer ? :P |
| 18:40.00 | strk | goal is ... putting things to use |
| 18:40.42 | shtrb | you can also use the pi + screen as something like hdmi over ip |
| 18:40.59 | strk | the screen is vga only |
| 18:41.05 | strk | I'm using a vga-hdmi converter |
| 18:41.48 | shtrb | you communicate with such rig over ip , and in fact it's just datagrams (I think VNC hence slow) |
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| 18:45.22 | shtrb | strk, btw a nice trick is to use VNC as a second screen at home https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/156412/vnc-server-as-a-virtual-x11-monitor-to-expand-screen |
| 18:48.40 | strk | accidentally shutting down the host didn't help .. |
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| 18:49.49 | strk | so now I made another test. Connected another monitor directly on the host |
| 18:50.11 | strk | first impression: bad (ie: Debian decided to use the other monitor [VGA]) as the primary one, but got the resolution wrong |
| 18:50.48 | strk | so as a result I've the first monitor (HDMI) just showing a background and NO menu to start anything, while the other monitor complains about "cannot display this video mode" |
| 18:50.54 | strk | I think I saw this happening often with that monitor |
| 18:51.05 | strk | I'll need now a command-line way to change the VGA monitor resolution |
| 18:51.40 | strk | right-click menu (I think it's a Mate desktop environment) doesn't give me the option to start a terminal, nor ctrl-alt-t |
| 18:51.48 | strk | but I can ssh-in |
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| 18:53.05 | strk | mate-control-center (started from ssh) doesn't find anything related to "monitor" (oops) |
| 18:53.21 | strk | "screen" finds only "screensaver" :'( |
| 18:54.51 | strk | finds its way to xrandr |
| 18:55.05 | strk | DP-1 connected primary 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 476mm x 268mm |
| 18:55.07 | strk | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:55.35 | strk | funny, the message on that monitor *asks* to set resolution to exactly that... oh well |
| 18:55.37 | strk | I must have fried it |
| 18:57.28 | strk | xrandr --output DP-1 --mode 1024x768 # helped :) |
| 18:57.41 | strk | xrandr --output HDMI-2 --primary # also helped a lot |
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| 19:03.24 | strk | for some reason the desktop environment thinks that the monitor on the left has to be preferred (desktop icons, full-screen Kodi) |
| 19:03.40 | strk | do you have any idea what's responsible for this ? The monitor on the *right* is "primary" |
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| 19:20.33 | line17 | is there any way to disable "completely" GUI welcome login screen to text? |
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| 19:22.14 | greycat | !nodm |
| 19:22.14 | dpkg | In systemd, "systemctl set-default multi-user.target", or remove the DM package(s) with "aptitude remove gdm3 kdm lightdm lxdm nodm sddm slim wdm xdm". "echo false >/etc/X11/default-display-manager" will also disable the DM, or just hit ctrl-alt-fN to get to a console. nodm is the name of a minimal/automatic display manager (https://github.com/spanezz/nodm). |
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| 19:22.58 | line17 | greycat, is there any way to set password when pressed to e on OS selection section?: |
| 19:23.25 | greycat | That's GRUB. And that's all I can tell you about your question. |
| 19:25.07 | line17 | my question i want to set a password to grub. |
| 19:25.09 | greycat | ... partly because I can't figure out what you're actually asking for. Are you trying to *prevent* the use of the GRUB menu? Or are you trying to reset the root password? Or something about disk encryption? Or something different? |
| 19:25.42 | line17 | prevent the use of grub menu |
| 19:26.17 | line17 | greycat, i found the answer |
| 19:26.25 | line17 | thanks for your interest and effort |
| 19:26.32 | line17 | appreciated! |
| 19:27.37 | aminvakil | line17: i'm not saying that's useless, but keep in mind that if your pc gets stolen, and the thief knows how to edit kernel line, they probably know they can boot your linux without another kernel using a usb flash drive |
| 19:27.48 | aminvakil | s/without/with |
| 19:28.19 | line17 | aminvakil, if i encrypt /boot and /sda partition can they still edit kernel? |
| 19:28.37 | aminvakil | sda is not a partition |
| 19:28.48 | line17 | you understood |
| 19:28.51 | aminvakil | you should encrypt your root partition |
| 19:28.54 | greycat | and /sda is not a directory either |
| 19:28.54 | line17 | yes |
| 19:28.57 | line17 | it is |
| 19:29.10 | greycat | unicorn:~$ ls -ld /sda |
| 19:29.10 | greycat | ls: cannot access '/sda': No such file or directory |
| 19:29.17 | line17 | :) |
| 19:29.21 | line17 | i hate cats |
| 19:29.34 | cws | Threatened by smarter animals? |
| 19:30.02 | aminvakil | they don't need to edit your kernel, they just boot your system with another kernel :) unless you have encrypted your root partition |
| 19:30.08 | line17 | cws, a mosquito had bited me |
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| 19:30.40 | greycat | or boot an entirely separate system, and then mount your partition(s) as data |
| 19:30.52 | aminvakil | greycat: even better idea :) |
| 19:31.10 | line17 | which encryption type is better? |
| 19:31.19 | line17 | aes, serpent, twofish, blowfish? |
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| 19:31.58 | jhutchins | line17: They each have their own features and advantages. |
| 19:32.32 | line17 | i see |
| 19:32.34 | aminvakil | line17: i couldn't find a debian wiki page about luks, so here it is: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dm-crypt/Encrypting_an_entire_system#Overview |
| 19:32.53 | line17 | i can share with you aminvakil |
| 19:32.56 | line17 | 1minute |
| 19:33.22 | line17 | aminvakil, here https://cryptsetup-team.pages.debian.net/cryptsetup/encrypted-boot.html |
| 19:33.23 | aminvakil | this is not as complete as archwiki, https://cryptsetup-team.pages.debian.net/cryptsetup/README.Debian.html |
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| 19:34.54 | aminvakil | either way, if you don't encrypt your /boot, someone can put a malicious code inside your bootloader which can retrieve your luks password next time you type it in |
| 19:35.01 | aminvakil | that's the reason i think for encrypting /boot |
| 19:35.31 | cws | Which requires physical access, or the system operator being INCREDIBLY stupid. |
| 19:35.43 | aminvakil | and i don't think secure boot helps here, because if someone has this access to modify /boot files, they can change secure boot keys too |
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| 19:35.52 | aminvakil | cws: right, which requires physical access |
| 19:35.54 | cws | So unless you have a legitimate reason to believe that someone is going to break into your house and modify your bootloader, you're wasting your time. |
| 19:36.00 | aminvakil | exactly |
| 19:36.30 | aminvakil | or maybe if you go into hotels frequently and leave your laptop out of your sight for long periods |
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| 19:36.32 | line17 | aminvakil, secure boot doesn't work smoothly with /boot encryption iirc |
| 19:36.45 | cws | And if you are being targeted to that degree, they'll skip that part and go straight to the kidnap-you-truth-serum-wrench-to-the-head option, a la xkcd. |
| 19:36.59 | aminvakil | i was telling the situation that /boot is not encrypted |
| 19:36.59 | line17 | aminvakil, they don't need such conspiracy theories. |
| 19:37.05 | line17 | wrench is 5 dollars |
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| 19:37.14 | line17 | here wrench is 4 dollars |
| 19:37.31 | omarek | Hi are proprietary nvidia drivers broken in bullseye? Kernel modules? |
| 19:37.31 | aminvakil | well you asked... |
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| 19:37.50 | omarek | Failed to insert module 'nvidia_drm': Invalid argument |
| 19:38.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1018] by debhelper |
| 19:38.35 | omarek | [FAILED] Failed to start Load Kernel Modules. |
| 19:39.02 | omarek | What could this indicate? It appears right before the LUKS encrypted drive passphrase prompt. |
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| 19:40.29 | ryouma | huh, i didn't think it was possible to encrypt /boot and have it so that an attacker could have physical access and still not be able to get in or be an evil maid or whatever it is called |
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| 19:41.51 | ryouma | although it would be gret if you could, without much trouble |
| 19:43.01 | cws | Can you? Yes. Does it net you anything in a real-world sense? No. |
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| 19:43.21 | Mister00X | you can encrypt /boot. /boot/efi needs to stay unencrypted though |
| 19:43.51 | cws | Assuming, of course, one is using UEFI. |
| 19:44.15 | oxek | !tell omarek about debian-next |
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| 19:44.29 | Mister00X | oh and whatever partition contains /boot it needs to be luks1 encrypted because grub is not luks2 capable yet |
| 19:44.48 | oxek | Mister00X: grub supports luks2 now |
| 19:44.56 | cws | Only in master. Not in any stable release. |
| 19:45.11 | cws | And, again, the real world benefit is effectively nil. |
| 19:45.18 | Mister00X | oxek: really i thought it supports it in the upcoming 2.06 release |
| 19:45.18 | oxek | agreed |
| 19:45.39 | oxek | Mister00X: that's what I meant |
| 19:46.08 | Mister00X | oxek: Is it out yet the 2.06 release? |
| 19:46.14 | oxek | in any case, you're leaving grub itself (the bootloader) unencrypted, so it doesn't matter that you encrypt /boot |
| 19:46.29 | oxek | you'd have to have the bootloader on a removable usb stick that you'd always carry with you |
| 19:46.35 | Mister00X | yes |
| 19:46.42 | oxek | that way, you could have AFDE (actually full disk encryption) |
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| 19:47.12 | oxek | or RFDE (really full disk encryption)? |
| 19:47.23 | oxek | don't think there's an agreed upon acronym yet |
| 19:47.25 | Mister00X | oxek: TFDE |
| 19:47.34 | Mister00X | True full disk encryption |
| 19:47.44 | Mister00X | would be my choice of words |
| 19:49.01 | Mister00X | Of course the currently possible cenarios only prevents access to the data if one looses his notebook for example |
| 19:49.45 | Mister00X | not the case where someone tampers the boot loader |
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| 19:51.09 | aminvakil | someone should have shared this until now: https://xkcd.com/538/ |
| 19:52.03 | cws | I did reference that earlier. ;) |
| 19:52.05 | Mister00X | aminvakil: well of course |
| 19:52.35 | aminvakil | cws: yes |
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| 19:58.10 | alexrelis[m] | Is it possible to set up hibernate when swap is on an external USB flash drive and your root partition is encrypted? |
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| 19:59.59 | oxek | should work in theory |
| 20:00.02 | oxek | !tias |
| 20:00.02 | dpkg | TIAS is "Try It And See". |
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| 20:00.25 | ryouma | what if you carry around a drive and boot from it? are you still vulnerable to whatever is done to the computer while youa re not htere? |
| 20:00.47 | oxek | ryouma: you're still vulnerable, but the bar is set much higher. |
| 20:01.06 | oxek | meaning it will be resistant to local police trying to bug it, but not to CIA/FBI/NSA |
| 20:01.27 | ryouma | you mean like they woul dhave to modify hw or something? |
| 20:01.42 | oxek | yeah, modify bios, hdd firmware, etc. |
| 20:02.02 | oxek | or they might just put a bug into your keyboard and retrieve it later |
| 20:02.13 | oxek | local PD don't have the skills for that usually |
| 20:02.29 | aminvakil | local police could set up a surveillance camera and retrieve password :P |
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| 20:03.00 | ryouma | well the enemy could be a corporation or something |
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| 20:29.52 | jhutchins | The only real point in doing encryption is to learn about it for commercial application. |
| 20:31.59 | jelly | blinks |
| 20:32.21 | Mister00X | jhutchins: or for fun |
| 20:32.54 | cws | Or to provide reasonable protection against disclosure in your typical loss-of-control event, such as theft. |
| 20:33.08 | jelly | ^ |
| 20:33.13 | Mister00X | that too |
| 20:35.13 | oxek | is theft still a thing? Everyone's at home, and nobody's travelling. |
| 20:35.16 | rudi_s | Or to be able to discard disks without having to worry that somebody will "find" the data later .. |
| 20:35.28 | rudi_s | *e.g. broken disks |
| 20:36.00 | jelly | oxek, sometimes people have two homes. |
| 20:36.13 | jelly | or none |
| 20:40.59 | digitalD | I'm pretty sure someone stole the candy off my desk in the office - of course, I haven't been in the office since last March, so it may still be there... ¯\_(ã)_/¯ |
| 20:41.12 | digitalD | but I think theft is still a thing... |
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| 20:42.13 | greycat | someone, or some thing |
| 20:42.26 | digitalD | potato potato ;) |
| 20:42.40 | ramzy | hi |
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| 20:45.05 | ramzy | i have a slow wifi and was trying to install kde plasma after downloading 1718 file (which basicly took all day) |
| 20:45.06 | ramzy | it just said 'apt install failed' and stopped |
| 20:45.06 | oxek | offices are still a thing? |
| 20:45.27 | ramzy | *files |
| 20:45.33 | oxek | ramzy: rerun the command |
| 20:45.55 | ramzy | and wait for another day?! |
| 20:46.03 | oxek | the packages are cached |
| 20:46.10 | jelly | ramzy, apt does not wipe the downloaded cache automatically |
| 20:46.44 | ramzy | so i run tasksel and chose kde again right? |
| 20:46.56 | jelly | sure |
| 20:47.20 | jelly | if that's what you've done the first time |
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| 20:47.36 | ramzy | yes |
| 20:47.59 | ramzy | okay thanks its continuing |
| 20:48.04 | ramzy | !next |
| 20:48.04 | dpkg | Another happy customer leaves the building. |
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| 20:49.31 | jelly | A happy customer? We should have htem stuffed! |
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| 20:53.52 | oxek | grumbles |
| 20:53.56 | oxek | I'm never happy |
| 20:54.15 | greycat | Then you may never leave. Only happy customers get to leave. |
| 20:55.06 | oxek | I'm not a customer then |
| 20:55.22 | greycat | well, you're screwed |
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| 21:00.03 | ratrace | hey, this one even rang the next bell on his/her way out! |
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| 21:02.18 | oxek | their |
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| 21:16.46 | strk | ouch: Failed to fetch http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/pool/main/c/cmake/cmake_2.8.9-1_armhf.deb 404 Not Found |
| 21:16.55 | strk | is it still possible to install packages for wheezy ? |
| 21:17.09 | strk | Err http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org wheezy/main armhf Packages # 404 |
| 21:17.54 | strk | shall I try to download a new raspbian version ? I'm afraid the old rPI won't support it :( |
| 21:18.21 | craigevil | what PI do you have? |
| 21:18.34 | sney | strk: this is #debian. if you want to use debian, there are images on raspi.debian.net. if you want raspbian, you need to go to #raspbian. |
| 21:18.37 | strk | do you know how to tell from software ? |
| 21:19.08 | strk | craigevil: ^ |
| 21:19.19 | strk | model name : ARMv6-compatible processor rev 7 (v6l) |
| 21:19.19 | craigevil | strk, /join #raspberrypi |
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| 21:22.15 | dka | hi |
| 21:22.29 | dka | can anyone help? I use cinnamon with debian latest and for some reaosn, I could not open my sound setting, and my display settings |
| 21:22.35 | jhutchins | !raspian |
| 21:22.35 | dpkg | Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian (or #raspberrypi) on irc.freenode.net for support. https://www.raspbian.org/ |
| 21:23.00 | dka | so I googled, and click on remove panel by mistake. now I use cinnamon-settings to open the settings and re-add a panel, but the add new panel bouton does not work |
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| 21:23.17 | dka | it doesn't open anythting, doesn't show any error message, my panel is removed so I can't really use my desktop |
| 21:23.24 | dka | what are my best moves to fix this asap? |
| 21:23.49 | jhutchins | dka: Install xfce/ |
| 21:24.02 | dka | what is that? |
| 21:24.14 | dka | a replacement for cinnamon? |
| 21:24.20 | dka | should I delete cinnamon first ? |
| 21:24.47 | jhutchins | dka: No need. |
| 21:25.00 | dka | how does the system know whish desktop to use? |
| 21:25.10 | dka | Is it xfce4? |
| 21:25.50 | dka | Why would I want two desktop GUI on my system? |
| 21:25.56 | dka | I just installed it, should I restart |
| 21:25.57 | jhutchins | Yes, and the greeter/login screen should let you choose. Default is whatever you used last. |
| 21:26.24 | jhutchins | dka: Should only have to log out and log back in, choosing xfce. |
| 21:26.53 | jhutchins | dka: Two so you can have a working desktop, but go back to cinammon when you want. |
| 21:27.11 | jhutchins | !cinnamon |
| 21:27.11 | dpkg | Cinnamon is a fork of <GNOME Shell> initially developed by the Linux Mint distribution. Packaged since Debian 8 "Jessie", ask me about <install cinnamon>. http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/ |
| 21:27.55 | jhutchins | dka: cinnamon is a bit under-staffed. |
| 21:28.05 | Villux | There's some Linux Mint reset instructions here, but it's from 5 years ago. No idea if it's relevant here or not: https://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/2195 |
| 21:28.25 | dka | I just reboot, and I got back in cinnamon, without panel |
| 21:29.41 | dka | How do I switch to xfce and uninstall cinnamon? |
| 21:30.59 | jhutchins | dka: Like I said, you have to pick it in the greeter. |
| 21:36.49 | jhutchins | dka: Do you get a greeter that asks for your login? I'm not sure what cinnamon would be using, probably gdm. |
| 21:37.55 | dka | xfce is bad |
| 21:38.13 | dka | I mean, I can't setup my keyboard shortcut easyly, can't put the panel bottom, I feel lost |
| 21:38.39 | dka | I want windows key to open the panel menu and right click key to open the terminal that's all I want |
| 21:39.19 | dka | and there's no quick run search feature, like Win key + chro + enter => open chromium |
| 21:39.27 | dka | it wasn't possible to fix cinnamon? |
| 21:39.54 | jhutchins | dka: Like anything else in Linux, there is a learning curve for xfce. If everything worked the same as cinnamon there'd be no point. |
| 21:39.55 | dka | if I dpkg -r cinnamon; dpkg -P cinnamon; apt-get install cinnamon, would it work ? |
| 21:41.29 | nkuttler | ah, some tools, you configure them once, and then they work for decades |
| 21:41.45 | oxek | dka: I can do everything you listed in xfce |
| 21:41.55 | dka | well i cant |
| 21:42.04 | cws | the solution, then, is learn. |
| 21:42.10 | dka | help me oxek |
| 21:42.14 | dka | if you know how to |
| 21:42.28 | jhutchins | dka: Documentation. |
| 21:42.41 | dka | I want : panel bottom, quick search shortcut, open terminal keyboard shortcut |
| 21:42.43 | oxek | dka: keyboard shortcuts are unsurprisingly in the keyboard settings |
| 21:42.58 | dka | well, you need to know the synthax, theré's no tips |
| 21:43.05 | oxek | panel location is unsurprisingly in panel settings |
| 21:43.44 | dka | you can't put it bottom from the settings |
| 21:43.46 | oxek | search&start a program, by default Alt-F3 or Alt-F2 |
| 21:43.49 | oxek | etc. |
| 21:43.50 | dka | and you can't configure shortcut in keyboard settings |
| 21:43.52 | oxek | all in documentation |
| 21:45.07 | alexrelis[m] | oxek: It didn't work. |
| 21:45.25 | alexrelis[m] | The hibernate on external USB thingy. |
| 21:45.48 | oxek | hmm |
| 21:46.01 | oxek | might be dependent on machine hardware, in case the USB gets power too late |
| 21:46.30 | oxek | perhaps look in BIOS/UEFI settings, it might have some USB power options related to that |
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| 21:57.28 | alexrelis[m] | oxek: What might be the problem is that I also use my USB flash drive to store Grub and /boot and then boot from the USB. |
| 21:58.59 | oxek | alexrelis[m]: that exact setup worked for me. Grub & /boot on a usb stick, harddrive truly full encrypted. |
| 21:59.57 | oxek | I can't remember if I tried hibernation in that setup. Hibernation never really worked for me on linux, on any machine, irrelevant of encryption or boot options. |
| 22:00.26 | istrive | exit |
| 22:01.01 | dka | xfce4 is so cool |
| 22:01.03 | dka | I love it |
| 22:03.12 | jhutchins | dka: Yes, Settings/Keyboard is where you configure shortcuts. |
| 22:03.35 | jhutchins | dka: Syntax is the same as for the menu or the command line. |
| 22:03.57 | oxek | "xfce is bad" -> "xfce4 is so cool", in only 22 minutes |
| 22:04.19 | jhutchins | oxek: The power of linux. |
| 22:08.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1002] by debhelper |
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| 22:11.35 | dka | How can I move the windows ? |
| 22:11.41 | *** join/#debian craigevil (~craig@161.82.100.28) |
| 22:11.41 | dka | with Win + arrow up right etc.. |
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| 22:12.17 | dka | How do I set the color color to white? |
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| 22:12.38 | ramzy | is the apt & aptget cache stored in memory or storage? |
| 22:13.12 | imMute | ramzy: stored in /var/lib/apt |
| 22:13.19 | ramzy | in other words is it safe to shutdown now and bug fix my issue later |
| 22:13.26 | jhutchins | dka: You can drag the title barm I don't know if you can use arrows. I mostly run full-screen, so I don't use that much. |
| 22:13.42 | jhutchins | dka: color color ... |
| 22:13.44 | ramzy | imMute: so i can just shut down? |
| 22:14.02 | imMute | ramzy: I didn't see your earlier problem, but apt wouldn't get messed up just by shutting down |
| 22:14.47 | jhutchins | ... unless maybe you're in the middle of a run. |
| 22:15.03 | ramzy | im installing kde with tasksel and it says ""apt-get install fails(100)'' |
| 22:16.58 | jhutchins | ramzy: If you want help with that, pastebin the full command you used and the full output. |
| 22:17.01 | jhutchins | !paste |
| 22:17.01 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
| 22:17.37 | dka | I found window tiling in the window manager |
| 22:17.47 | dka | but I can't find how to change the clock color |
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| 22:19.04 | ramzy | i used "tasksel" then chose kde from the gui after installing 1718 file it |
| 22:19.04 | ramzy | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:19.11 | ramzy | thats it |
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| 22:19.52 | imMute | ramzy: that's not what you said earlier. copy/paste the *exact* output into a pastebin |
| 22:20.00 | sney | run "apt -f install" and see if it fixes itself |
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| 22:21.51 | ramzy | imMute: "apt-get install failed (100)" |
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