| 00:00.04 | balleyne | Any thoughts on how to explore what's going on with a directory when ls won't even work? (just hangs indefinitely it seems) |
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| 00:29.34 | cybercrypto | balleyne: Well... I would start with knowing what is inside that mount point (perhaps too many files in there causing ls to hang?) |
| 00:30.53 | cybercrypto | balleyne: if that dir is used to hold logs, do you know that? any file patterns like application_name_time_stampyyyymmmddd.log? if known... you could try ls a single file and check if returns something. |
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| 00:32.11 | cybercrypto | balleyne: besides that, you may want to boot from rescue, single mode and check filesystem from other tools... I am afraid you will need a bit of background about that mount point, before moving forward.... Does ls works in any other directories? |
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| 00:57.04 | tosted | hi |
| 00:57.15 | dvs | yo |
| 00:57.40 | tosted | is there some cmd line like 'rpm -Va' in debian with dpkg? |
| 00:57.48 | tosted | to compare files |
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| 01:00.16 | abrotman | dpkg: debsums |
| 01:00.16 | dpkg | debsums is a utility that will check a package's files against their checksums. The "-a" argument will instruct it to also check configuration files: "apt install debsums; debsums -a -s". Almost all packages come with md5sums included in the package or apt will have generated them for you; generate missing ones with "apt-get install --reinstall `debsums -l`". Ask me about <md5sums>. |
| 01:01.24 | abrotman | oh, guess I was too slow .. |
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| 01:03.36 | phogg | if you can't wait 3 minutes for an answer it must not be too important. |
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| 01:17.18 | cybercrypto | phogg: Agree. Not all people knows how irc works... even worse these days... |
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| 01:18.08 | dvs | hi |
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| 01:38.06 | rustyshackleford | is it possible to run mc as a user without a home directory? |
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| 01:39.26 | ectospasm | rustyshackleford: you might need to tell it where the .mcrc file is or whatever it's called. |
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| 02:19.40 | rustyshackleford | any tips on opening a server up to the internet? |
| 02:19.55 | rustyshackleford | as far as security. I know how to forward the port on my router |
| 02:20.12 | rustyshackleford | pretty interesting. within a few minutes you can see the bots start hitting the server lol |
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| 02:25.06 | dvs | rustyshackleford: iptables-persistent comes to mind. |
| 02:27.16 | rustyshackleford | the only port I want to open is for SSH |
| 02:27.33 | rustyshackleford | so, disable password logins. require a key pair |
| 02:27.42 | sney | use a non-standard port for ssh to avoid the bots |
| 02:27.51 | sney | even something relatively common like 222 will still cut them down by a lot |
| 02:28.09 | sney | even if they can't get in due to sshd configuration, it still uses a little bit of cpu every time they try |
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| 02:30.04 | avu | also if FSM forbids there is ever an exploit in ssh that can be used without authorizing first, all ssh services exposed on 22 will probably be exploited in a matter of hours |
| 02:30.21 | avu | with another port, you may have a few hours more to react unless you are explicitly targeted |
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| 02:38.25 | somiaj | fail2ban is also nice |
| 02:39.02 | sney | yeah, to clean up any stragglers |
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| 02:39.23 | evilbug | fail2ban is #bae <3 |
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| 02:41.14 | evilbug | rustyshackleford also disable root login, set a number of tries. |
| 02:42.01 | evilbug | set a ban for several attempted logins... |
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| 04:05.03 | EdePopede | rustyshackleford: if it's about $HOME, just export it to whatever before start, maybe even `HOME=/tmp mc` works |
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| 06:55.18 | x10d | no, but you can add its repo and use apt to install it |
| 06:55.56 | choice | I don't do that. |
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| 08:00.05 | tete_ | anyone an idea how i could check if my pci soundcard is broken? first i thought its the mainboard or the ssd. now i removed the soundcard and everything seems to work, windows boots again, debian does not behave strange anymore, but is there some proof that was it? except installing the soundcard again and see if those problems occur again. maybe some dmesg entries or so? |
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| 08:01.33 | wisbit | hi everyone, after seeing that runc:[2:INIT] was using a lot of memory, I checked as suggested the list of leaky mount points with this command for i in `ls /proc/*/mountinfo`; do wc -l $i; done | sort -k 1 -n |
| 08:02.05 | wisbit | it showed a very long list of /proc/$$$/mountinfo ($$$ represents a number) |
| 08:02.16 | wisbit | I don't really know what to do with that. |
| 08:02.31 | wisbit | is it a problem ? is it solvable ? |
| 08:03.08 | ratrace | wisbit: is this debian or devuan? |
| 08:03.12 | wisbit | debian |
| 08:03.28 | wisbit | I have lots of dockers running on that server, if that is relevant |
| 08:05.24 | ratrace | well, not sure what you mean by "leaky mount points", the proc mountinfo items list .... mount information |
| 08:05.51 | ratrace | what exactly is the _problem_ that you have? runc process taking "a lot" of memory? How much? Out of how much in total? |
| 08:07.00 | wisbit | it's taking 200Mo, it's a the top of the list of mem usage (now that docker and firefox are shutdown) |
| 08:07.36 | wisbit | also, weird thing is the list of mountinfo, it refers to lots of apache and httpd processes, which are not even supposed to be running. apache service is down |
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| 08:08.33 | ratrace | 200 doesn't seem that much. are you talking about the rss? |
| 08:09.02 | ratrace | and pastebin a mountinfo that you think isn't supposed to be running |
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| 08:19.19 | wisbit | I am not very familiar with this. It started by seeing this runc process in system monitor that was just hanging there, not knowing it I had a read online which lead me to what I mentioned earlier. Now, if that's not a big deal, than I can just drop it and it's all well and done. |
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| 08:21.47 | ratrace | wisbit: 200 MB doesn't _sound_ like big deal. open chromium and a few tabs and 2000MB it consumes won't be a big deal because that's chromium. relatively speaking. |
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| 08:23.23 | wisbit | ratrace, yeah you make sense |
| 08:23.29 | wisbit | thansk for the feedback |
| 08:23.34 | wisbit | thanks* |
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| 09:05.36 | Franciman | Hell-o! |
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| 09:06.06 | jelly | ohai |
| 09:06.18 | Franciman | I want to build an old kernel |
| 09:06.28 | Franciman | but it says that it requires binutils 2.28 |
| 09:06.35 | jelly | ,v binutils |
| 09:06.36 | judd | Package: binutils on amd64 -- jessie: 2.25-5+deb8u1; stretch: 2.28-5; buster: 2.31.1-16; bullseye: 2.35.2-2; sid: 2.35.2-2; experimental: 2.36.1-6 |
| 09:06.41 | Franciman | now |
| 09:06.46 | Franciman | I am on buster |
| 09:06.53 | jelly | Franciman, surely it requires binutils 2.28 or later? |
| 09:07.05 | Franciman | jelly, it is a quite old kernel, 4.16 |
| 09:07.08 | Franciman | err |
| 09:07.13 | Franciman | between 4.15 and 4.16 |
| 09:07.17 | Franciman | I am bisecting a bug |
| 09:07.34 | jelly | Debian 10 is using 4.19 by default, that's like 6 months difference tops |
| 09:07.42 | Franciman | and yet |
| 09:07.46 | Franciman | it is too much |
| 09:07.55 | jelly | how does the build fail? |
| 09:08.25 | jelly | when you say "it says", which command or documentation specifically does that? |
| 09:11.11 | jelly | you could set up a debian 9 chroot or container and build inside it |
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| 09:11.11 | jelly | but I remain doubtful about specific OLD version of binutils required |
| 09:11.11 | Franciman | jelly, oh that'd be great |
| 09:11.11 | Franciman | jelly, eheh, I have to be honest, this was an error I got 5 months ago, then I gave up |
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| 09:11.11 | Franciman | so let me try to rebuild the kernel |
| 09:11.11 | Franciman | and I will let you know in ~30min |
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| 09:14.56 | *** topic/#debian is Current Debian release is buster, 10.9 point release /msg dpkg 10.9; /msg dpkg buster; /msg dpkg stretch->buster; /msg dpkg apt suite changed | Stretch has limited LTS support: /msg dpkg stretch-lts ; /msg dpkg 9.13 | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing/unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net | chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog |
| 09:15.01 | jelly | !sbuild |
| 09:15.02 | dpkg | sbuild is, like, The 'sbuild' package provides a way to build Debian packages within <chroot> environments that are managed using the <schroot> utility. Building within sbuild saves installing the build-dependencies on your machine and also compiles in a clean environment; sbuild is used on the Debian <buildd> network. See https://wiki.debian.org/sbuild. An alternative to sbuild is <pbuilder>. |
| 09:15.28 | jelly | I've seldom used any of the wrappers for debootstrap. There might be better alternatives. |
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| 09:16.50 | Franciman | thanks a lot |
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| 09:43.21 | hegemoOn | is there a way to tell apt to use former configuration when updating package ? |
| 09:43.45 | hegemoOn | i have the case of grub-pc where it launch an interactive terminal to request where to install grub |
| 09:43.56 | hegemoOn | which is quite pretty obvious cause it's already installed |
| 09:44.03 | hegemoOn | why such silly question ? |
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| 09:45.38 | hegemoOn | side effect is that crontabed apt update && upgrade are blocked |
| 09:45.53 | hegemoOn | cause the dpkg is blocked |
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| 10:01.08 | ratrace | hegemoOn: when you run apt-get noninteractively.... you need to tell it it's noninteractive with an env DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive |
| 10:01.32 | ratrace | then it'll assume defaults which are default new config options and don't overwrite existing ones |
| 10:02.16 | ratrace | hegemoOn: taht said... you shouldn't really run apt upgrade in cron |
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| 10:09.16 | hegemoOn | i have a strange behevious |
| 10:09.44 | hegemoOn | behaviour, i have several servers exactly setuped the same, but only one has an issue with PIE |
| 10:09.51 | hegemoOn | it cannot load the exact same library |
| 10:10.01 | hegemoOn | that is beeing loaded on all others servers |
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| 10:11.00 | ratrace | obviously they're not setup exactly the same, you just think they are :) what issue is that exactly? |
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| 10:11.51 | hegemoOn | inconsistency detected by ld.so |
| 10:12.00 | hegemoOn | ratrace: they are |
| 10:12.03 | zodd | is there a way (website) which can draw me a picture what the effect (cascading) will be of installing a certain (backported) package so I know upfront what consequences it might have? |
| 10:12.13 | hegemoOn | exactly the same iso with same setup installation |
| 10:12.24 | hegemoOn | same hardware and same installation |
| 10:12.26 | ratrace | hegemoOn: clearly something IS different about them |
| 10:12.28 | hegemoOn | beside hiostname |
| 10:12.51 | ratrace | hegemoOn: what is the action you're performing and what is the exact error you receive |
| 10:12.56 | hegemoOn | elf_machine_rela_relative; Assertion |
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| 10:13.24 | ratrace | zodd: what kind of effect? |
| 10:13.35 | hegemoOn | i cannot export my logs (corporate fw) |
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| 10:13.52 | ratrace | hegemoOn: you'll have to fix THAT problem somehow. |
| 10:14.05 | ratrace | type it up, screate a screenshot... |
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| 10:15.42 | zodd | casus: I would like to upgrade chromium/chromedriver on a headless server running Buster to facilitate some software. If I pick the versions from Bullseye I might trigger a libc6 upgrade for instance which will enforce upgrading a lot of other stuff causing a semi dist upgrade which I do want to avoid |
| 10:16.43 | hegemoOn | ratrace:https://ibb.co/1bvMW7k |
| 10:16.45 | ratrace | zodd: that's not the same as installing backported packages per your original question, that's mixing repos and that's seriously not recommended unless you want BrokenThings |
| 10:17.23 | ratrace | zodd: there is no tool that can predict failures taht will happen. there is also no tool that can predict dependency clashes based on mixing repos, unless you count apt itself when you try to install something |
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| 10:17.35 | zodd | exactly. But backported packages can introduce backported libc6. At least I have had some experiences of that in the past. Do not want to go that road |
| 10:18.00 | zodd | basically I am looking for a sandbox apt |
| 10:18.18 | ratrace | containers |
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| 10:19.39 | ratrace | hegemoOn: and what _action_ causes this? and what is that from? seems like something very much specific to some python module |
| 10:20.27 | ratrace | hegemoOn: also, are you mixing wheel precompiled python modules with locally compiled ones? |
| 10:20.43 | hegemoOn | not me, but my users yes |
| 10:20.45 | hegemoOn | exported on nfs |
| 10:21.19 | ratrace | hegemoOn: you're making ZERO sense |
| 10:21.46 | hegemoOn | i mean my users use their own python modules compiled by themselves |
| 10:21.49 | ratrace | AND if you have code running off of NFS mounts, then you definitely do NOT have same setup across servers |
| 10:22.08 | hegemoOn | and standard modules installed by apt |
| 10:22.17 | ratrace | hegemoOn: right, so you do NOT have the same setup/software running on those several servers |
| 10:22.30 | hegemoOn | nfs is not ACID ? |
| 10:22.46 | ratrace | ACID is property of databases, not filesystems |
| 10:23.01 | ratrace | ALSO ... with nfs mounts you're running external code. |
| 10:23.07 | hegemoOn | right, but do you understand the meaning of my question ? |
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| 10:23.20 | hegemoOn | one share, mounted on several clients |
| 10:23.28 | ratrace | bottom line, if you have mixture of wheel and locally compiled (with custom options, even if -march=native) python modules, there may be clashe, yes. eitehr use wheel or compile. |
| 10:23.39 | hegemoOn | if i do an md5sum on exported file, they are all the same |
| 10:23.45 | ratrace | hegemoOn: which question, there's several? |
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| 10:37.02 | hegemoOn | well, my interrogation, was about nfs, and that suggested fact that nfs doesnt enforce constency of bits across all clients sharing the same export |
| 10:37.11 | hegemoOn | which is quite surprising |
| 10:37.54 | hegemoOn | beside some cache issue, or network issue occuring from time to time, one exported data by nfs is consistant across clients |
| 10:38.00 | hegemoOn | or i misanderstood something |
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| 10:38.40 | jelly | zodd, backported packages from debian backports will never introduce as significant changes as a new libc6. and building chromium is a pain if you do it yourself, so yes, testing or unstable in a container seems a reasonable approach |
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| 10:39.36 | ratrace | hegemoOn: in theory, yes |
| 10:41.36 | ratrace | hegemoOn: but my point was, if you have nfs mounts, from which you execute code, you effectively introduce a variable in your setup. especially with python involved, and you mention "users" and implying you don't have control over which code they're running, and implying there may be locally compiled modules, vs wheel based modules .... that's a recipe for having setups that aren't identical |
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| 11:12.39 | nifker | I have a question about the xdg-desktop-portal-wlr package. From where does the process gets executed? |
| 11:12.55 | nifker | bc I want to set the display which is to be screencasted |
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| 11:23.04 | queip | year 2021 ! |
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| 11:23.16 | queip | human robots on Mars: yes |
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| 11:23.44 | queip | open software deliveres proper XMPP client with functionality like "staying the hell connected to server without manual intervention": no |
| 11:23.51 | queip | why open software model failed us? |
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| 11:24.15 | jelly | queip, us? |
| 11:24.26 | queip | (it's gajim that can't stay connected. other clients fail in other ways) |
| 11:24.32 | queip | jelly: users of it |
| 11:24.39 | jelly | queip, there's your answer |
| 11:24.48 | queip | we should not be using it? |
| 11:24.56 | jelly | you think of yourself as "user" instead of "developer" |
| 11:25.09 | queip | my grandma should fix it? |
| 11:25.24 | jelly | it's open source, if it doesn't scratch your itch, you are able to fix it |
| 11:25.40 | queip | yeah "my grandma" doens't know C |
| 11:25.44 | jelly | your grandma isn't whining about it here, you are. |
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| 11:25.58 | queip | but if no one fixes most basic functionality of basic programs, it seems to fail |
| 11:26.03 | jelly | so, learn C enough to debug and fix it |
| 11:26.20 | jelly | don't expect someone ELSE to do things for you |
| 11:26.27 | queip | jelly: if I would want to run custom versions of software I would use arch/gentoo instead debian |
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| 11:27.09 | queip | the entire reason for debian is that software in repos, besides of being open source, should generally be stable, e.g. provide most basic functions (Even if a bit old) |
| 11:27.15 | jelly | why custom? Fix it and GIVE BACK the fix to upstream |
| 11:27.28 | jelly | queip, that's not what "stable" means |
| 11:27.28 | queip | jelly: so see you in 3-5 years? |
| 11:27.49 | jelly | stable means: the set of issues is known and does not change for the duration of the release |
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| 11:28.07 | jelly | it doesn't mean the software is fit for any particular purpose |
| 11:28.18 | ratrace | that's even in the EULA |
| 11:28.23 | jelly | ikr |
| 11:28.27 | queip | jelly: that may be definition, but so then, users of debian stable should not be expected to find in repo software that works in it's most basic functions correctly, like text IM client that can stay connected to server? |
| 11:29.07 | jelly | queip, correct. If things are broken, the best way forward is to help fixing them |
| 11:29.09 | ratrace | proprietary software server? |
| 11:29.29 | queip | so like "it's ok that is broken, because 1) you can't sue us haha look into EULA and 2) you should had fixed it 5 years ago lmao"? |
| 11:29.51 | queip | ratrace: this bug is afaik among all servers, in gajim |
| 11:29.59 | jelly | queip, it's more like, if you don't fix it now, it might still be crap in 3-5 from now and we'll have the same conversation AGAIN |
| 11:30.02 | ratrace | but proprietary software servers? |
| 11:30.21 | queip | ratrace: *all* servers, including open source server like ejabberd or whatever |
| 11:30.35 | queip | it's bug in client only - it doesn't automatically re-try reconnection if it is in "Desyn" state |
| 11:30.40 | ratrace | I see |
| 11:31.05 | jelly | the next best thing is to at least make sure the bug is reported so others are aware |
| 11:31.09 | queip | jelly: and the end result is still apparently no one did |
| 11:31.27 | jelly | queip, you're still thinking someone ELSE is supposed to do it |
| 11:31.32 | queip | yeah |
| 11:31.38 | jelly | that's the core misunderstanding |
| 11:31.46 | queip | I'm not building LFS here, I want to use text chat |
| 11:32.06 | jelly | queip, is the bug reported? |
| 11:32.30 | queip | jelly: exactly. my observation is that it failed to worked out, no one fixed it. yes even if technically people can gloat "lol ur fault not fixing it" |
| 11:33.07 | jelly | it's not gloating, it's stating the fact |
| 11:33.42 | jelly | with open source, you're at least able to do something about other than reporting |
| 11:33.56 | queip | lmao reported 13 years ago. but not sure if it's the same exact bug, or other with same symptoms. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gajim/+bug/113902 |
| 11:33.57 | jelly | with a closed source you're not able to do that |
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| 11:34.31 | queip | jelly: yes I know how OS works, the point is that this option allowed by OS is often not leading to good software at all |
| 11:34.56 | ratrace | here's the thing. the whole idea of open source, libre source, GPL and similar licenses .... is that it's ALL built and made and designed for programmers, not for non-programming end users. |
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| 11:35.21 | shtrb | queip, I don't know where you are located, but I once paied for a dev to fix a problem and make it merged into upstream |
| 11:35.23 | ratrace | non-programmer end users may or may not use the software (it's libre). but the FOSS ecosystem is not for them primarily. |
| 11:35.35 | queip | ratrace: does debian.org this system is only for programmers? |
| 11:35.38 | jelly | shtrb, that's an excellent option |
| 11:35.50 | queip | (and I think you are very wrong on that user base limit there) |
| 11:35.51 | jelly | if you can't fix it, pay someone who can |
| 11:35.59 | ratrace | queip: I never said there was a limit |
| 11:36.08 | shtrb | ratrace, I would dissagree with your claim , I know a 90 year old who happen to use FoSS tools for many years for his day to dat usage |
| 11:36.09 | ratrace | I said the entire idea of "here's the source code" is aimed for programmers |
| 11:36.21 | queip | ok then debian.org should warn about it? |
| 11:36.27 | ratrace | shtrb: and again, I never said they _cant_ do that |
| 11:36.41 | jelly | queip, they do. It's basically in every open source licence. |
| 11:36.48 | queip | "Yeah the jokes are true, this is OS for nerds only. You don't know C/C++/make/etc, then don't expect good experience it's not designed for you"? I hope that aint true ;) |
| 11:36.52 | ratrace | shtrb: but a 90 year old NON programmer has zero gains from GPLs statement that modifications should be contributed back |
| 11:37.17 | shtrb | ratrace, still better from being with MS grip |
| 11:37.30 | ratrace | not even for _nerds_ the entire premise, initial idea, basement and foundation for the FOSS ecosystem is that source is freely available for modifications and reuse |
| 11:37.34 | ratrace | shtrb: oh definitely. |
| 11:37.42 | queip | not saying that payable opensource is a bad model, maybe there is some idea there |
| 11:37.46 | ratrace | just saying: if you don't at least report a bug, nobody's gonna fix it |
| 11:38.14 | jelly | if you report it, that doesn't mean too much, but at least other users can find it |
| 11:38.16 | queip | fixing bugs is usually not fun at all and therefore expensive |
| 11:38.17 | shtrb | queip, I dissagree with your claim , there are different tools, you can however pay (standard chagre can go as low as 50 euro per hour of work and normally a decent dev would say to you how much time it should take him ) |
| 11:38.34 | jelly | queip, it's fun if you like that sort of thing. |
| 11:38.56 | queip | jelly: looking at state of how buggy most common programs are, it would seem it's not fun for many ;) |
| 11:39.06 | shtrb | queip, it depends , I'm a dev and I don't remember when ever I was a annoyed from fixing existing bugs |
| 11:39.15 | queip | no GOOD email client, no GOOD IM client exists in debian, never had |
| 11:39.34 | queip | btw video drivers are also a bane |
| 11:39.36 | shtrb | queip, we don't get enough time to fix stuff and priorities stuff , which is a different issue |
| 11:39.37 | jelly | queip, how do you propose that situation to change? |
| 11:39.41 | queip | (which might be more of vendor fault) |
| 11:39.58 | queip | shtrb: yeah but common good IM and good email client |
| 11:40.00 | shtrb | queip, mutt, kmail are very nice E-Mail clients, there is a plato for good IM client |
| 11:40.02 | ratrace | queip: frankly, no good email client exists ANYWHERE. in MS, on Apple, on Android, on OSX .... |
| 11:40.04 | queip | Im not asking for niche software here |
| 11:40.17 | shtrb | queip, KTP and pidgin are extramly good |
| 11:40.26 | queip | shtrb: kmail is totally messed up, though yeah only one with proper features. if you can get it to work |
| 11:40.34 | ratrace | queip: and I can tell you that as an MTA admin for over 10 years who's seen her share of client side bugs and problems with all the email programs |
| 11:40.46 | queip | shtrb: pidgin has OMEMO encryption now? attachments? |
| 11:41.06 | shtrb | queip, that's not a definition for "GOOD" , that have a specific feature you wish to get |
| 11:41.11 | queip | ratrace: kmail bugs include inability to work at all due to the akonadi things |
| 11:41.17 | shtrb | OMEMO is a replacment , for existing and working OTP |
| 11:41.28 | queip | *OTR |
| 11:41.41 | jelly | omemo and otr are not things your grandma would care about |
| 11:41.43 | shtrb | sorry OTR |
| 11:41.44 | ratrace | shtrb: also this: I pad serious money for some games. They still, to this day, have glitches and bugs nobody fixed. |
| 11:41.54 | queip | afaik omemo is superior; and otr in pidgin had lots of problems regarding authenticating the fpr |
| 11:42.01 | ratrace | AllSoftwareSucks(tm) |
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| 11:42.23 | shtrb | queip, have you reported the bugs regarding OTR in pidgin ? |
| 11:42.26 | jelly | at least these days you can actually pay a debian developer to fix things, over freexian |
| 11:42.26 | queip | ratrace: well games mostly do not have totally breaking bugs in most basic functions. unless it's like F67 or Cyberpunk2077 ;) |
| 11:42.34 | queip | *F76 |
| 11:43.02 | ratrace | queip: well _some_ games obviously do. like _some_ email clients, _some_ xmpp clients, ... ;) |
| 11:43.03 | shtrb | jelly, you can pay non DD too , to make it into upstream |
| 11:43.16 | queip | shtrb: some bugs I reported, almost always they went unfixed so long I lost interested. but also seems other reported failing it too, another thing not working as some would envision, in foss community |
| 11:43.38 | queip | ratrace: waiting for 1 good email, and 1 good im client in debian that will not break |
| 11:43.51 | ratrace | queip: %s/in debian// |
| 11:43.53 | jelly | queip, Debian merely shows that side of software development in public |
| 11:44.09 | jelly | "we don't hide bugs" |
| 11:44.09 | queip | kmail -> akondai craps out. most other client lacks functions. thunderbird broken external gpg (and lacks functions anyway) |
| 11:44.33 | queip | im -> gajim CAN'T AUTOCONNECT (wtf). piding->otr has problems, and it's implementation of it has more problems |
| 11:44.57 | queip | jelly: ok great. now how to really fix them |
| 11:45.10 | shtrb | queip, neither kmail nor pidgin are Debian problems , you can compain about it #kde or request / pay for a bug fix. |
| 11:45.11 | jelly | queip, either you do it yourself, or you pay someone |
| 11:45.26 | queip | jelly: no sustentable |
| 11:45.36 | queip | *sustainable |
| 11:45.49 | jelly | queip, welcome to software development. |
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| 11:46.08 | queip | maybe we like like "Debian but less bugs"® that fixes most bugs but users pay yearly subscription |
| 11:46.13 | queip | this still can be foss btw |
| 11:46.22 | jelly | queip, it's called a LTS subscription. |
| 11:46.26 | jelly | !lts |
| 11:46.27 | dpkg | Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years. Debian LTS is not handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies. Ask me about <jessie-lts> and <stretch-lts> and see https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information. #debian-lts on irc.oftc.net. |
| 11:46.46 | queip | jelly: these problems existed mostly in Jessie too |
| 11:46.55 | jelly | they don't fix "most" bugs, but you can pay for the specific packages you need to work |
| 11:47.05 | queip | also, that's reaaaaaly old. not reasonable for desktop user mostly |
| 11:47.19 | jelly | what's really old? |
| 11:47.24 | queip | jessie? |
| 11:47.33 | jelly | stretch is current LTS |
| 11:47.44 | queip | k. well need to update factoid I guess |
| 11:47.54 | queip | oh ok nevermind |
| 11:48.03 | jelly | and I'm sure LTS people will be happy to company's money to fix things in stable, too |
| 11:48.15 | EdePopede | queip: long ago i couldn't play a discworld game from CD ("copy" "protection", so always keep it in the drive!) because the drive ran at full speed during the endless intro which couldn't be omited and right before it would have been done the drive decided to take a break to cool down. which made the software crash instantly because the data it waited for didn't arrive. |
| 11:48.16 | queip | company? |
| 11:48.45 | themill | I did hear of people who would love to be paid to maintain Qt/KDE stuff. |
| 11:48.48 | jelly | queip, yes. well maybe you can sponsor 250EUR/month from your own pocket |
| 11:48.51 | EdePopede | and this was a *commercial* product with a bug that would not have been necessary at all if someone wouldn't have hacked it with a "who cares" attitude. |
| 11:49.08 | queip | jelly: but why are we talking about commercial user, what about desktop users |
| 11:49.14 | queip | *about home users |
| 11:49.45 | jelly | queip, because solutions for bugs are the same for home users. |
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| 11:50.28 | jelly | queip, either you wait for a DD to fix it, and we know that usually does not work, or you fix it, or you pay someone. The context that "you pay someone" and that can be done via LTS. |
| 11:51.11 | EdePopede | too much code for too few devs |
| 11:51.22 | jelly | tanstaafl |
| 11:51.40 | EdePopede | that's like a construction worker trying to feed his 8 children 100 years ago. |
| 11:51.45 | jelly | open source != free bugless lunch |
| 11:52.15 | queip | how about project where users (and heaving in mind also regular home users) pay like dunno 10-30$/year subscription , in return they get more support and especially it funds prioritization of fixing bugs they are affected by |
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| 11:52.57 | jelly | queip, you need at least $80 for an hour of dev work, and that's cheap |
| 11:53.07 | queip | plot twist: the payment is more where no important bugs exist, less is buggy. e.g. 50$/y, but if some amount of basic programs are boken then only 30$, if more then 10$, and if things are very bad then they don't pay that year if still unfixed |
| 11:53.46 | EdePopede | jelly: just imagine only half of the people investing their time and skills into some project which is just 1% different would instead work on whatever their code had been forked from |
| 11:53.58 | queip | jelly: fyi almost no C/C++/Java/Pythin developer earns that much in Poland, usually x3-x6 less. just a tidbit |
| 11:54.36 | jelly | queip, the DDs working on LTS get 80EUR/hour, and they're in all kinds of countries |
| 11:55.05 | queip | wow I would be probably richest developer in my (major) town |
| 11:55.19 | queip | anyway. yeah it just depends on number of uers |
| 11:55.21 | queip | *users |
| 11:55.35 | jelly | queip, if you're getting paid $12/hr, and are able to triage and backport security fixes, consider working for LTS. They are asking for more people. |
| 11:55.50 | EdePopede | jelly: not only devs, that's true for a lot of jobs when it comes to eastern europe. without them prices for asparagus, strawberries and a lot of other agricultural products would just explode, and most of old people being on their own would have to chance to get anyone for daycare. |
| 11:56.12 | jelly | EdePopede, I know, I live there. |
| 11:56.43 | EdePopede | err. was an answer to queip this time, no idea where your nick appeared from xD |
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| 11:56.55 | queip | I bet reconnect bug is <1000$ |
| 11:57.03 | queip | bounties might be one idea |
| 11:57.20 | queip | but a downside of this exact approach is that it almost incentives to create bugs, at some point |
| 11:57.22 | EdePopede | the good thing in software is it's done a single time and if it is successful then !next |
| 11:57.38 | shtrb | queip, you overestime charging values |
| 11:57.48 | jelly | EdePopede, unless you have a cesspool like openssl |
| 11:57.51 | EdePopede | devs creating bugs just to be able to fix them later? ey, they're not firefighters :P |
| 11:58.16 | queip | EdePopede: "at some point". more like "why spend x3 more time and write more UTs and fuzzers and shit" |
| 11:58.28 | queip | "at most this will result in getting LESS money for my friend" |
| 11:58.46 | jelly | fuzzers are finding more bugs in eg. linux kernel than devs can fix. |
| 11:59.01 | queip | when you pay for code remaining bug-free, it is motivation to use most productive approach, tests, UTs, all |
| 11:59.24 | queip | jelly: security and quality of Linux is another can of worms, maybe one day |
| 11:59.24 | jelly | there's hardly a reason to deliberately introduce new ones, when 70% are accidentally introduces anyway |
| 12:00.02 | EdePopede | *nod* it's easy to blow air/liquids into a pipe and find out some gets lost somewhere than to find the hole (even in that exact situation) |
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| 12:01.38 | EdePopede | also some things were considered fine when it all started (linux, bsd, unix), but aren't today anymore. SUID root (think beep), fingerd, the world is an evil place. |
| 12:02.16 | queip | decision maker of default on beep in linux bash should anyway be pushed to lava source block. in minecraft |
| 12:03.22 | queip | only hw developers ending beeper presence in PCs ended that blunder |
| 12:04.43 | EdePopede | because i looked at Discord again last week (suid chrome-sandbox) i also checked my system for them. there are a couple left, i really would like some other approach. the graphics i've seen showing how (iirc) pkexec works looked good. the critical stuff is done by privileged code which tells userland code to do something and gets it back to the user code requesting it. |
| 12:08.11 | riff-IRC | why not allow userland access to the PC beeper? |
| 12:08.24 | riff-IRC | (or is that a kernel-level thing) |
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| 12:09.47 | EdePopede | i think it's a hardware access thing |
| 12:10.10 | EdePopede | users should be allowed to nuke only their own profile |
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| 12:10.47 | EdePopede | as for mount, this one has some answers and surprisingly is only a month old https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/65039/why-does-mount-require-root-privileges |
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| 12:20.52 | Franciman | am I wrong if I think that people on `stable` suffer from shiny new stuff syndrome? |
| 12:20.58 | Franciman | oldstable all the way |
| 12:21.22 | Franciman | does the oldstable receive security updates? |
| 12:22.04 | EdePopede | i still get some |
| 12:22.09 | wMw | oldies but goldies |
| 12:22.11 | queip | Franciman: jessie seems to have many bugs unfixed (that is, more than stable) |
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| 12:22.21 | shtrb | riff-IRC, you can beep using other users |
| 12:22.40 | abrotman | Franciman: depends on the situation |
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| 12:22.52 | Franciman | wait jessie is oldoldstable |
| 12:23.23 | EdePopede | python3.5 right now |
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| 12:33.38 | ov3rmind | nice UGT, great hug cool friends! |
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| 12:42.02 | lemur | Is there a way to set per-app permissions for camera, microphone, screensharing etc similar to macOS? |
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| 12:51.01 | NetTerminalGene | lemur: i don't think so |
| 12:51.24 | NetTerminalGene | i don't know if it can be done with selinux |
| 12:51.43 | NetTerminalGene | have no idea |
| 12:55.37 | tinga | There's some problem with lists.debian.org: index page works (https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/) but any threaded view (e.g. https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/2020/threads.html) doesn't work |
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| 12:57.36 | tinga | Anyone I should notify? |
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| 12:58.38 | queip | tinga: "You may submit bugs against the list archives using the lists.debian.org pseudo-package or contact the maintainer at listmaster@lists.debian.org. " |
| 12:58.57 | queip | (in footer) |
| 12:59.01 | tinga | OK I'll mail them. Thanks |
| 12:59.11 | jelly | tinga, I see four messages in https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/2020/ view |
| 12:59.12 | EdePopede | tinga, looks ok here? https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/2003/threads.html |
| 12:59.35 | queip | indeed I see 4 msgs there |
| 13:00.06 | tinga | It just endlessly spins for me ("transferring data from lists.debian.org") |
| 13:00.29 | jelly | try to quite your web browser and open it again :-D |
| 13:00.33 | jelly | quit |
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| 13:00.40 | tinga | Very odd, will do |
| 13:01.01 | tinga | I mean it's super odd as I can open *other* top-level index pages from lists.debian.org in the same browser instance. |
| 13:01.07 | tinga | Just no threads pages. |
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| 13:01.18 | tinga | But wget works on those. |
| 13:02.11 | jelly | sorry, the threads are all tangled up |
| 13:02.19 | tinga | Same after restarting Firefox. |
| 13:02.38 | tinga | links works fine. I have no idea. |
| 13:03.27 | tinga | Turning off ipv6 here |
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| 13:06.10 | tinga_ | Turning off ipv6 didn't change anything, still links works but Firefox doesn't. |
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| 13:07.01 | tinga_ | lists.debian.org has address 82.195.75.100 # for me |
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| 13:09.24 | tinga_ | Works fine in Firefox from testing, but not in Firefox from stretch (78.9.0esr-1~deb9u1) |
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| 13:10.58 | tinga | Works fine in the latter if I create a new unix user and start from there. |
| 13:11.37 | tinga | Works fine if I disable LocalCDN add-on. |
| 13:11.43 | tinga | OK, got it solved. |
| 13:12.41 | tinga | (Well, at least in as far as it's a compatibility issue with that. Odd since I'm also using uBlock Origin with js off and I thought LocalCDN only stores js.) |
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| 13:23.42 | Enissay | Using terminal SFTP to upload a file, it works fine, but if I interrupt the transfer then relaunch again, it gives me: `remote open("/myDir/myFile.deb"): Permission denied` |
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| 13:27.54 | Enissay | `/myDir` permissions are very open `drwxrwxrwx`, what am I missing ? |
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| 13:48.33 | ratrace | Enissay: no myfile.deb fragment in the dir? |
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| 13:53.55 | cws | !sources |
| 13:53.55 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main", and optionally "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <buster/updates> <buster-updates> and "man sources.list". |
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| 13:56.55 | Enissay | ratrace: there is a small file yes. Normally it should either replace or resume. I get the same error when adding resume flag `put -a myfile.deb` |
| 13:57.12 | ratrace | Enissay: and what's ownership and permission on that file? |
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| 13:58.09 | Enissay | ratrace: `-rwxrwx--- 1 proftpd proftpd` |
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| 13:58.40 | ratrace | Enissay: so that's not SFTP (FTP over SSH) at all, but FTPS (FTP over SSL/TLS) |
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| 13:58.58 | ratrace | I know, it's confusing... blame the ones that came up with the names :) |
| 13:59.08 | cws | always hated that |
| 14:00.03 | ratrace | Enissay: point being... it's possible the ftpd is munging permissions in other ways. no idea what ProFTPd does there. |
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| 14:01.30 | ratrace | Enissay: Unlesss .... you really _are_ using SFTP ( openssh's sftp(1) ) .. is taht the case? |
| 14:02.11 | ratrace | (openssh's or some other openssh-ftp client) |
| 14:02.49 | twobitsprite | bullseye really doesn't have a /usr/bin/{or whatever}/python? and update-alternatives doesn't have alternatives for "python"? |
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| 14:03.40 | twobitsprite | do I really need to just make a symlink in /usr/local/python or something to run python scripts? |
| 14:03.51 | twobitsprite | I feel like I must be missing something |
| 14:04.28 | ratrace | interesting problem. I wonder if bullseye's idea of keeping python2.7 around means it's not switching `python` to `python3` just yet |
| 14:04.37 | imMute | twobitsprite: https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Fpython&mode=path&suite=testing&arch=any |
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| 14:05.42 | kainengran | yawn |
| 14:05.58 | ratrace | there's no python-minimal in bullseye |
| 14:06.02 | ratrace | ,v python-minimal |
| 14:06.03 | judd | Package: python-minimal on amd64 -- jessie: 2.7.9-1; stretch: 2.7.13-2; buster: 2.7.16-1 |
| 14:06.18 | twobitsprite | imMute: interesting... python-minimal has no installation candidate, but it does list replacements: python-is-python3 python-is-python2 python2-minimal |
| 14:06.25 | imMute | odd that it would show up in that search... |
| 14:06.29 | ratrace | but ... there'y python2.7-minimal |
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| 14:07.29 | ratrace | however, that installs /usr/bin/python2.7 |
| 14:07.51 | imMute | twobitsprite: so you either install one of the python-is-* packages, or be explicit in the #! as to which version you want. |
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| 14:08.07 | oxek | python-is-python2 and python-is-python3 exist |
| 14:08.18 | ratrace | twobitsprite: do you actually need python2 or just want `python` to launch python3 ? |
| 14:08.18 | twobitsprite | imMute: yeah, I got that, it's just interesting... |
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| 14:09.26 | cws | twobitsprite: My suggestion would be to use 'env'. |
| 14:09.26 | twobitsprite | I get that python3 threw a spanner in the works for everyone... I'm just surprised Debian doesn't have some "python" executable in the path, and doesn't seem to have update-alternatives support... |
| 14:09.36 | cws | #!/usr/bin/env python2 or /usr/bin/env python3 |
| 14:09.47 | twobitsprite | cws: env doesn't fix this. in fact, the script I'm trying to run is using env |
| 14:09.49 | imMute | twobitsprite: it also looks like if you upgrade from an older release that had python2.7 installed, you get pyton-is-python2 automatically. and I'm guessing that Debian either upgraded all their scripts or made the #! explicit |
| 14:10.00 | nkuttler | changing the system default python would probably break lots of stuff |
| 14:10.41 | ratrace | actually, that `python` means python2 exclusively, is mandated by a PEP. now with 2 being EOL'd there's another PEP that _allows_ `python` to mean `python3` |
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| 14:11.23 | twobitsprite | I thought the convention going forward was to always assume "python" is python 2.x and if your script was written for python 3, to explicitly call "#!...python3" |
| 14:11.24 | ratrace | so the question _I_ am interested in is, does Bullseye implement the switch of `python` to mean `python3`, or does it still keep it to mean 2 |
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| 14:11.43 | ratrace | twobitsprite: not just convention but a PEP mandate. however, that changed |
| 14:11.45 | oxek | we'll have the same problem when python4 comes along, so let's make sure /usr/bin/python is not being used |
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| 14:11.59 | twobitsprite | ratrace: apparently it doesn't mean anything by default in bullseye, because there is no "python" on the path |
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| 14:12.18 | ratrace | twobitsprite: unless you install python2-minimal |
| 14:12.36 | twobitsprite | ratrace: you mean, python-is-python2 |
| 14:12.54 | ratrace | and you shouldn't really. py2 in Bullseye is only there to support some important dependencies that couldn't be migrated in time. it's a dead python. unpatched. bereft of life. it's an ex python. |
| 14:12.57 | twobitsprite | ratrace: but that's my point, a lot of scripts assume there is a "python" on the path, and usually it's assumed that's python2 |
| 14:13.00 | ratrace | twobitsprite: I mean python2-minimal |
| 14:13.05 | ratrace | which pulls in python2.7-minimal |
| 14:13.35 | ratrace | twobitsprite: yes, a lot of scripts expect `python` to mean 2 |
| 14:13.38 | twobitsprite | ratrace: I thought someone said python2-minimal provides a "python2" executable, but not a "python" executable |
| 14:14.02 | twobitsprite | (I haven't verified, because I installed python-is-python2) |
| 14:14.10 | ratrace | cws's suggestion to use env is the best scripts can really do |
| 14:14.28 | twobitsprite | env doesn't fix it though |
| 14:14.36 | twobitsprite | you still need to know the executable name |
| 14:14.44 | twobitsprite | "#!/usr/bin/env python" still breaks |
| 14:15.00 | ratrace | ah yes, I confused the bins ... python2{.7}-minimal installs /usr/bin/python2.7 |
| 14:15.26 | twobitsprite | and I just checked, |
| 14:15.34 | twobitsprite | I already had python2-minimal install |
| 14:15.43 | twobitsprite | installed* |
| 14:16.27 | twobitsprite | and I know the "Right Thing(TM)" is for scripts to call "python2" or "python3", but a lot of existing scripts just call "python" (either as "#!/usr/bin/python" or "#!/usr/bin/env python") |
| 14:17.16 | twobitsprite | I just worry that bullseye is going to cause a lot of unexpected breakage when people start using it in production |
| 14:17.31 | karlpinc | FWIW, a history of what the python people suggest "python" runs: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/#history-of-this-pep |
| 14:17.44 | imMute | twobitsprite: those scripts will need to be updated. you can't expect to just move scripts/programs/processes forward without needing to update them once in a while. |
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| 14:18.32 | ratrace | twobitsprite: it won't break packaged scripts. the idea is to have them properly reference the python they need, otherwise it's a massive bug that can be easily fixed |
| 14:18.41 | twobitsprite | imMute: /usr/bin/perl is still perl5 |
| 14:18.45 | ratrace | whether it'll break external scripts.... well... |
| 14:19.16 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: Has perl5 had it support dropped by the perl people? |
| 14:19.19 | ratrace | (and it won't be Bullseye's fault; 2 has been EOL'd for over a year now, and warned about for YEARS before) |
| 14:19.42 | twobitsprite | *shrug* whatever, break people's shit, I'm just saying I think it's a bad decision that's going to make a lot of people mad at Debian |
| 14:20.33 | imMute | twobitsprite: not the same thing. python3 is the next version of python. perl6 is not the successor to perl5 (despite the name) |
| 14:20.46 | karlpinc | twobitsprite: Probably less mad than other distros. I hear RH/Fedora are dropping all packages that support only python2. |
| 14:21.14 | imMute | twobitsprite: I feel the same thing for those people as I feel for people still using Win XP or Win 7. |
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| 14:24.49 | wintersky | silly elitists |
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| 14:27.21 | twobitsprite | it just seems like a pigheaded mentallity... *shrug* |
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| 14:28.47 | cws | What, dropping something that was EOLed for over a year and expecting people to have long since updated their stuff? |
| 14:29.02 | twobitsprite | yes, actually |
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| 14:29.38 | ratrace | twobitsprite: that's a rather nonsensible expectation |
| 14:29.42 | imMute | cws: done by *volunteers* too. |
| 14:30.05 | ratrace | debian's fault that people aren't paying attention and are trying to use long expired software? |
| 14:30.08 | wyoung | .o/ |
| 14:30.31 | twobitsprite | is it that hard to just keep "python" as python2? |
| 14:30.41 | cws | imMute: And? How far in advance was python2's EOL known? |
| 14:31.04 | ayekat | for about a decade |
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| 14:31.28 | imMute | twobitsprite: extremely easy! 'sudo apt install python-is-python2' or upgrade from a system where python 2 is already installed. |
| 14:31.36 | ratrace | twobitsprite: but there's no more python2 for regular use. the package in bullseye is special and not recommended to install or use manually |
| 14:31.52 | ratrace | there shouldn't even been python2 in bullseye, but here we are.... |
| 14:32.00 | cws | python2 is EOL, if you're still using it, stop, if you have stuff that uses it, update it. |
| 14:32.23 | cws | Its not pigheaded, its reality. |
| 14:34.05 | ayekat | distros aren't (and shouldn't be) responsible for maintaining dead stuff |
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| 14:44.09 | twobitsprite | idk, sometimes the level of neckbeardery in the open source community just too damn high for me |
| 14:44.14 | TheBigK02 | i have problems mounting a cifs vfs windows share... error is mount error(2): No such file or directory |
| 14:44.29 | TheBigK02 | on my ubuntu it works. but debian i have issues |
| 14:44.52 | TheBigK02 | im thinking something changed on the serverside of things. but i dont know for sure |
| 14:45.12 | cws | twobitsprite: excuse me? |
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| 14:52.17 | ratrace | twobitsprite: this has nothing to do with "neckbeardery" (ass uming you mean hardened unix veteranism bordering luddism :) ) |
| 14:52.36 | ratrace | python2 == EOL. dead. is no more. it's an ex python. bereft of life. |
| 14:52.59 | cws | ratrace++ for monty python python |
| 14:53.04 | ratrace | the only reason there's traces of it in Bullseye is that some important packages still depend on it, so it's a dependency, one that is DEAD, will not receive any updates and NOBODY should use it. |
| 14:53.08 | ratrace | cws: :) |
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| 14:53.52 | TheBigK02 | oh i "fixed" it... |
| 14:54.01 | TheBigK02 | booting old kernel helped... but what changed |
| 14:54.02 | ratrace | so if lack of /usr/bin/python breaks someone's python2 script in second half of 2021, that has nothing to do with debian. |
| 14:54.42 | ratrace | also, Debian would be quite within rights and PEP recommendations if /usr/bin/python symlinked to python3. that'd still break somoene's old, unpatched broken python2 script that expects `python` to be 2.x |
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| 14:55.06 | ratrace | both problems are not caused by, or should be fixed by, Debian. |
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| 15:00.27 | Enissay | ratrace: I am not sure, not my server, how to check that ? |
| 15:02.04 | jhutchins | TheBigK02: It might give us some insight if we knew what release you're running, and which specific kernels are your "old" and "new". |
| 15:02.51 | ratrace | Enissay: well you know what client you're using. |
| 15:03.40 | ratrace | Enissay: is it openssh-ftp, like sftp(1), or perhaps Filezilla set up wiht openssh keys, or is it literally FTP, the one listening on port 21 |
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| 15:15.42 | shtrb | Enissay, Filezilla provide ftp , sftp and ftps (I think) |
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| 15:16.50 | shtrb | yes, checked they do provide ftps - but no debian user should ever use ftps because if they do they will loose their temper |
| 15:17.23 | Enissay | ratrace: I use sftp to connect from terminal. In Filezilla I select SFTP/SSH authentication |
| 15:17.49 | Enissay | shtrb: ^ so I guess SFTP |
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| 15:20.52 | ratrace | Enissay: okay. So, which user are you logging in as? |
| 15:22.13 | shtrb | Enissay, I used it for a while you need to check what the server is listening on (what mode) , an interupted connection has a timeout of a few minutes for which you will not be able to erase or overwrite the file (until the server disconnect the previous connection ) |
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| 15:23.48 | shtrb | The easiest way to debug , is to connect using sftp and send ls (to see if you are even allowed to list it) and rm for that file and see if you have a permission to drop it. |
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| 15:24.14 | shtrb | You are using Filezilla server correct ? |
| 15:24.22 | ratrace | shtrb: s/he previously did that, shows ownership by proftpd:proftpd |
| 15:24.36 | ratrace | that's why I asked whether s/he is using SFTP or FTPS |
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| 15:25.11 | ratrace | and I have a nagging suspicion here, that s/he isn't using "proftpd" user for SFTP, and there's a clash of uploading via FTP(S) and SFTP because FTP(S) files are owned by proftpd |
| 15:25.13 | shtrb | I think he might be using Filezilla Client but a different server (which would explain the proftpd) |
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| 15:26.04 | shtrb | (*) proftpd does have an sftp access |
| 15:26.30 | ratrace | shtrb: oh? openssh-ftp access? |
| 15:27.59 | shtrb | Not sure what you ask but proftpd-core give /usr/share/proftpd/templates/sftp.conf which would configure sftp access |
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| 15:29.11 | ratrace | shtrb: I am asking if proftpd support openssh-ftp protocol, aka SFTP. I know proftpd does FTP(S) (FTP over TLS/SSL) .. but does it also do openssh-sftp ? |
| 15:29.22 | shtrb | yes |
| 15:29.57 | ratrace | okay. so the question is here, which user is SFTP tried as, and is there a clash between that user's, and uploads via FTPS which would be proftp unless configured wiht a uid map |
| 15:30.00 | shtrb | I didn't see sftp called openssh-ftp before |
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| 15:30.16 | shtrb | who said there's ftps in the loop ? |
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| 15:30.30 | shtrb | I only said it would be a BAD case if he used it |
| 15:30.58 | ratrace | SFTP is FTP over SSH, and openssh-ftp is the reference implementation AFAIK. |
| 15:31.16 | shtrb | Enissay, can you try connecting with sftp and try to list and erase the file ? |
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| 15:31.22 | ratrace | shtrb: Enissay implied by showing file permission ownership of proftpd:proftpd |
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| 15:31.52 | ratrace | typically, FTPd servers will own files unless UID mapping is configured, or for anon uploads |
| 15:31.53 | shtrb | As proftpd support both ftps and sftp (it also support ftp) I don't understand why |
| 15:32.16 | ratrace | shtrb: I didn't know proftpd supported SSH file transfer protocol |
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| 15:32.47 | ratrace | maybe this is too much yak shaving, compared to the original problem. uploading a file, interrupting, then resuming would result with permission deined. |
| 15:32.57 | shtrb | ratrace, http://www.proftpd.org/docs/contrib/mod_sftp.html |
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| 15:33.07 | ratrace | that, plus proftpd:proftpd file ownership made me assume it's FTPd shenanigans as they do UID remapping |
| 15:33.44 | shtrb | ratrace, there's the anoying hold the file until the socket is no longer is freed |
| 15:33.59 | shtrb | Which I know from filezilla but not sure about proftpd |
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| 15:34.12 | ratrace | shtrb: "hold" how? |
| 15:34.38 | shtrb | If you disconnect mid download , and reconnect after one second you will not be able to continue because the file handle is still open |
| 15:34.44 | shtrb | *mid upload |
| 15:35.06 | ratrace | ah, and open in exclusive access mode or something. possible, yes. that'd explain this definitely. |
| 15:35.09 | ratrace | Enissay: ^^^^ |
| 15:35.59 | shtrb | My common workaround for this is to try to manually to erase the file, if I can't it's this annoying issue and I just need to wait for a few minutes for it to free the file |
| 15:36.23 | shtrb | as long it's in TIMEWAIT state you can't do anything |
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| 15:40.56 | Enissay | shtrb: I could ls and rm the file |
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| 15:41.10 | Enissay | through sftp |
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| 15:43.26 | ratrace | shtrb: speaking of, I regularly pull down stack's TIMEWAIT timeout to 15 seconds, the default is 2 minutes!! |
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| 15:45.17 | jvwjgames | I am wondering why my laptop is going slow with Linux I have 4 gigs of RAM a Intel i3 processor and 2TB of HDD storage |
| 15:45.45 | Enissay | even after disconnecting and connecting again, the file still cannot be resumed/overriten. I see this in log `OPEN command for '/myFile.deb' blocked by 'STOR' handler` |
| 15:45.56 | greycat | 4 GB is considered a bit low if you run a web browser |
| 15:46.14 | jvwjgames | Even installing was slow |
| 15:46.46 | jvwjgames | My laptop doesn't use even a gig of RAM due to the lightweight version of desktop I am using |
| 15:47.39 | greycat | Installation speed will generally be I/O bound. Is the disk really slwo? |
| 15:48.04 | jelly | jvwjgames, which cpu model? can you pastebin the output of "free" |
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| 15:48.57 | jelly | jvwjgames, if your workload isn't bottlenecked by RAM, replacing HDD with SSD would probably be the next best thing to improve general responsiveness |
| 15:50.27 | jvwjgames | Ok thanks |
| 15:50.38 | jvwjgames | Also the laptop is a Sony Vaio |
| 15:51.09 | jelly | cpu model. Not laptop brand. |
| 15:51.21 | shtrb | Enissay, STORE command is exactly what I mentioned before |
| 15:51.26 | jvwjgames | Oh sorry |
| 15:51.39 | jelly | grep model.name /proc/cpuinfo | head -n1 |
| 15:52.38 | shtrb | ratrace, but WHY ?! |
| 15:52.48 | jelly | core2duo or older will feel sluggish in general, they don't have enough L2/L3 cache of the modern software builds |
| 15:53.16 | jvwjgames | Intel Core I3 M 370 @2.40Ghz |
| 15:54.01 | jelly | i3-370M |
| 15:54.12 | jvwjgames | Yes |
| 15:54.35 | shtrb | Enissay, STOR just mean the client is still sending data , if in reality you had disconnected it mean the server didn't drop the inernal handle |
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| 15:55.03 | jelly | 3M cache, right before sandybridge |
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| 15:55.08 | shtrb | The real question if you can or can not upload after erasing the file |
| 15:55.21 | jelly | jvwjgames, what about that "free" output |
| 15:55.30 | Enissay | shtrb: I can upload after deleting the file |
| 15:55.31 | jelly | !paste |
| 15:55.31 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
| 15:55.34 | jvwjgames | I'll get that for you right now |
| 15:56.00 | jelly | jvwjgames, it's probably going to be "get a SSD to give that laptop 1-2 more years of life" |
| 15:56.38 | shtrb | Enissay, do you have access to ssh on that server and to run netstat to see if the previous connection is still live ? |
| 15:56.56 | Enissay | shtrb: I see also some high timeout values `TimeoutNoTransfer 600 | TimeoutStalled 600 | TimeoutIdle 1200` |
| 15:57.09 | Enissay | in proftpd config |
| 15:57.25 | Enissay | Yes, I have ssh access |
| 15:57.28 | ratrace | shtrb: because on the server I have a megaton of transient connections (we host millions of images) that saturate the conntrack with dead items |
| 15:57.57 | ratrace | in 2021 there's really no legitimate case where a server would _need_ to take more than 15 secodns to respond to the fin/finack dance |
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| 15:58.18 | ratrace | I'd say even 5+ seconds is too much, but I leave it at 15 |
| 15:58.27 | jvwjgames | https://drive.google.com/file/d/14koYneKWJUe-GNXZlSp3FC3sdImL9Qqy/view?usp=drivesdk |
| 15:58.33 | ratrace | I mean, if it doesn't respond within 15 seconds, it won't at all, so why bother |
| 15:58.33 | shtrb | I read at first you had increesed it to 15 minutes not seconds :D |
| 15:58.48 | ratrace | ah, lol no :) |
| 15:59.22 | jelly | ratrace, for dns purposes, we had to just disable conntrack and everything was much better |
| 16:00.00 | ratrace | I can imagine. DNS is another case of short, transient tcp conns with no concept of "keepalive" |
| 16:00.02 | jelly | some tuning required. |
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| 16:00.20 | shtrb | Oh when we will have GNS more common :-( I wish to get rid of relay on having a valid DNS records to work |
| 16:01.19 | jelly | dns works. Be wary of half-baked ideas to replace it with a DHT or anything similar |
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| 16:03.23 | jvwjgames | jelly: did you get the picture |
| 16:03.45 | imMute | ratrace: isn't TIMEWAIT only relevant when the connection is not cleanly closed? AFAIU, cleanly closed connections do not enter those wait states... |
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| 16:05.11 | ratrace | imMute: time wait is time between server sending finack in response to fin, and the remote side responding with an ack |
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| 16:05.33 | ratrace | fin wait is time between client sending out fin, and receiving finack from the server |
| 16:05.34 | jelly | jvwjgames, looks, but also, looks like it might be Kali not Debian? |
| 16:05.45 | jelly | looks free* enough* |
| 16:06.10 | Enissay | shtrb: netstat doesnt show my conection, I mean a lot of empty lines; Using `ftpwho`, I could see my connection which disappears immediately after logout |
| 16:06.17 | ratrace | imMute: but the stack uses TIMEWAIT to wait a bit more for any residual packets belonging to the session to settle down |
| 16:07.09 | ratrace | remember the stack only validates TCP state based on serial number. it reassembles out of order packets but doesn't keep track of potential retransmissions and whether they've caused extraneous packets |
| 16:07.19 | jvwjgames | It is Kali but it's still based on Debian if this laptop is going to continue to go slow even if I change out the HDD to a SDD that's going to suck because I just barely bought this laptop 💻 from a pawn shop |
| 16:07.32 | greycat | *plonk* |
| 16:07.43 | greycat | Lots of that today! |
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| 16:08.19 | ratrace | imMute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol#Protocol_operation |
| 16:08.52 | ratrace | jvwjgames: yes, thus install proper Debian. |
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| 16:10.18 | cybercrypto | hahah |
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| 16:19.44 | jelly | jvwjgames, well there's no obvious reason for "slow" but we don't know what kali people have changed and can't help with that OS |
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| 16:26.10 | EdePopede | maybe kali is *meant* to be buggy from the beginning so that the users can just start hacking the flaws out of it. |
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| 16:29.32 | SkitsVicious | https://imgur.com/a/AFroWu7 |
| 16:29.39 | SkitsVicious | is there a kernel param to prevent this? |
| 16:29.53 | SkitsVicious | i can't cancel it. ctrl+c doesn't work. |
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| 16:33.00 | dmt | run fsck but in safe mode |
| 16:33.16 | dmt | it should fix the errors |
| 16:33.43 | SkitsVicious | there are no errors. it's first boot after install. |
| 16:34.05 | jvwjgames | Okay so this is not a Kali related question but what is security freeze lock on a SATA drive |
| 16:34.12 | cybercrypto | SkitsVicious: i am not sure... but have you tried /fastboot ? this prevents fsck for that particular boot. |
| 16:34.20 | dmt | then fsck is looking for errors. Happens every boot? |
| 16:34.23 | jvwjgames | I'm using a tool that says this drive is security freeze locked |
| 16:34.40 | SkitsVicious | dmt, happens on first boot after install. there haven't been any other boots before. |
| 16:34.45 | somiaj | jvwjgames: are you still running Kali? |
| 16:35.16 | jvwjgames | No a drive diagnostic program |
| 16:35.50 | SkitsVicious | cybercrypto, thanks i'll try that. |
| 16:35.58 | dmt | https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/fastboot/fastboot.1.en.html |
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| 16:37.24 | SkitsVicious | thx |
| 16:37.36 | SkitsVicious | and this will work as a kernel boot param? |
| 16:38.12 | jhutchins | jvwjgames: It indicates that you should install a well supported standard distribution instead of a hacker toy. |
| 16:38.22 | SkitsVicious | lol |
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| 16:43.57 | johnfg | hi guys |
| 16:44.38 | johnfg | Quick question: is there a way to run a service with debugging, maybe verbose debugging? So talking systemd. |
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| 16:47.05 | cybercrypto | johnfg: What do you mean? Normally when you develop an application you may want to structure it to react to debug level as a configurable parameter.... Please, elaborate your question and clarify what you are looking. |
| 16:47.18 | greycat | you read the man page for the daemon, find out how to make it more verbose, and then edit the unit file |
| 16:47.45 | greycat | (by which I mean you either make a copy of the whole unit file in /etc/ and edit the copy, or you use a drop-in snippet in a .d directory) |
| 16:50.14 | *** join/#debian rangergord (rangergord@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-cejovdoxopdphaol) |
| 16:50.41 | rangergord | Hi. What network system will Bullseye use? NetworkManager, networkd? Or still ifupdown? |
| 16:50.52 | imMute | rangergord: take your pick. |
| 16:50.56 | rangergord | what's the default |
| 16:51.02 | sney | either option 1 or 3 out of the box, depending on what tasks you install |
| 16:51.08 | rangergord | I see. Thanks. |
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| 16:52.01 | ratrace | netplan.io *runs* |
| 16:52.28 | sney | lxde uses connman, also |
| 16:52.45 | rangergord | ratrace: as a Ubuntu user I liked it. I didn't have to leanr networkd or NetworkManager (I only knew ifupdown) , just one configuration frontend that works regardless of backend |
| 16:52.58 | ratrace | rangergord: but it only supports one backend, so.... |
| 16:53.16 | rangergord | really? on Ubuntu Server it works with networkd, and on Ubuntu desktop it works with NM |
| 16:53.40 | ratrace | rangergord: you can't configure NM with options you can use for networkd, ... or can you? |
| 16:54.56 | rangergord | I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it's meant to, otherwise what's the point?. Anecdotally, the basics I know (set a static IP, DNS server, gateway, etc) worked on a Ubuntu Server system as well as on desktop despite using networkd and NM respectively. |
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| 16:56.11 | rangergord | It would be a shame if netplan on Debian didn't do that too. I'm gonna be using Debian more and more, was hoping I could just use Netplan. |
| 16:56.22 | ratrace | rangergord: you can |
| 16:56.25 | ratrace | ,v netplan.io |
| 16:56.26 | greycat | dpkg, netplan |
| 16:56.26 | judd | Package: netplan.io on amd64 -- buster: 0.95-2; bullseye: 0.101-4; sid: 0.101-4 |
| 16:56.26 | dpkg | greycat: bugger all, i dunno |
| 16:56.36 | cws | netplan is set up so that it'll translate the directives provided into whatever backend you indicate. |
| 16:56.51 | cws | If you want to switch backends, just change that parameter and regenerate the config. |
| 16:56.58 | cws | There isn't anything NM or networkd specific. |
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| 16:57.00 | ratrace | I still don't think you can configure NM with all the netplan options that can do networkd configs. |
| 16:57.17 | ratrace | in all the documentation, it's only showing render: networkd, and doesn't mention the limitations of each |
| 16:57.37 | cws | One assumes that there are directives available within netplan that only apply to networkd. |
| 16:57.40 | ratrace | cws: what about routing, multiple IPs, static routes, MAC binding, etc... ? doable with NM backend? |
| 16:57.48 | cws | Yes. |
| 16:58.05 | cws | ipv4.routes/ipv6.routes, ipv4.addresses/ipv6.addresses, etc. |
| 16:58.09 | cws | That's all available in NM. |
| 16:58.46 | ratrace | maybe things changed recently, last time I tried that it failed misreably, only networkd was properly configurable |
| 16:59.02 | ratrace | anyhoo.... I _sincerely_ hope that canonical NIH crapware doesn't become dfault in debian. |
| 16:59.09 | rangergord | for someone who ONLY knows ifupdown (/etc/network/interfaces), and who only intends to use Ubuntu and Debian, netplan is a better time investment than learning NM/networkd, right? |
| 16:59.22 | rangergord | I got pretty productive in 30 minutes of reading netplan |
| 16:59.25 | cws | ratrace: oh get off it, jesus. netplan is a great tool. |
| 16:59.27 | rangergord | but I'm a very basic user |
| 16:59.40 | cws | who gives a damn if it comes from canonical |
| 16:59.41 | dmt | i hear ratdvd is good |
| 16:59.49 | ratrace | rangergord: it's installable in bullseye |
| 17:00.00 | ratrace | cws: I do. it's shite NIHware |
| 17:00.21 | cws | ratrace: right, coming from the one who doesn't even know its functional capabilities |
| 17:00.23 | ratrace | if someone wants it, it's there to install and use. but becoming default? nope. |
| 17:00.25 | cws | ratrace: piss off |
| 17:00.30 | ratrace | blow me, retardo |
| 17:00.46 | rangergord | ratrace: that's not really what it is. It doesn't replace networkd/NM, it just provides a unified way of configuring either of them. Should cover us for the next decade or so before networkd absorbs NM. |
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| 17:00.53 | rangergord | assimilates, if you will |
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| 17:01.23 | ratrace | rangergord: I know, it's yaml config that then orchestrates specific backend |
| 17:01.29 | ratrace | "one Yaml to rule them all" |
| 17:02.21 | cws | still waiting for a technical justification of why its bad |
| 17:02.36 | cws | gonna be waiting a long time, i think |
| 17:02.49 | rangergord | ratrace: just hates Canonical :P |
| 17:02.52 | cws | "waaah canonical waaah" |
| 17:02.53 | ratrace | it's redundant. it does nothing but translate yaml to ini |
| 17:03.14 | cws | or nm configs, but you don't seem to be well versed in that half |
| 17:03.49 | ratrace | so what if I'm not? I don't use NM, it's not a secret. |
| 17:03.53 | rangergord | I'm happy learning different tools that do different things. But never happy learning 2 time-consuming equivalent ways of doing the same thing. |
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| 17:04.24 | rangergord | and for the sort of network configuration I would do, I don't care about the differences between NM/networkd |
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| 17:04.33 | rangergord | I'd rather not have to learn both |
| 17:04.38 | ratrace | cws: btw, NM config is also INI |
| 17:04.41 | cws | ratrace: Then maybe don't position yourself as someone of knowledge. ;) |
| 17:04.58 | cws | Though I think you've walked yourself back from that position pretty effectively on your own. |
| 17:05.04 | ratrace | knowledge of what? NM? I never said I knew NM |
| 17:05.18 | ratrace | I do know netplan.io, I used it, I coded for it. I know what it does |
| 17:05.27 | cws | rangergord: netplan was a great tool for setting up a kvm host. lacp, bridge, all of it in a single config. |
| 17:05.31 | ratrace | the only thing I don't know is how well netplan.io options translate to NM configs, that's all. |
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| 17:05.59 | ratrace | if you want to use THAT to berate me because I said netplan.io stinks, go ahead. but that really makes YOU a canonical fanboi who can't stand someone disliking or hating their NIH crapware |
| 17:05.59 | rangergord | cws: I dont know what those are, but glad it supports advanced scenarios |
| 17:06.29 | rangergord | ratrace: if a lone, fiercely independent and free Debian developer of color had made it, would you still be ragging on it? |
| 17:06.58 | ratrace | rangergord: yes. becuase it doesn't do anything useful. it's Yet Another Abstraction layer that hides specifics of each backend. |
| 17:07.08 | cws | Don't expect an intellectually honest answer. |
| 17:07.20 | ratrace | however, DD wouldn't dream of doing nonsense like that, so that doesn't matter |
| 17:08.08 | jelly | rangergord, see that xkcd about standards. |
| 17:08.11 | rangergord | allright, fair enough. Let's agree to disagree :) |
| 17:08.36 | ratrace | rangergord: you _are_ of course free to use it if you like it. it's packaged, installable, and I never said anything against _that_ part. |
| 17:08.42 | rangergord | cws: do you know if Netplan lets you see the backend-specific configuration files it created from the yaml? |
| 17:08.51 | cws | Drops them in /run. |
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| 17:08.56 | rangergord | cool |
| 17:09.02 | avu | If it's driven by Canonical, won't it die anyway? Like upstart, Mir, Unity, bzr? *duck* |
| 17:09.09 | ratrace | it probably will :) |
| 17:09.20 | rangergord | what's bzr? |
| 17:09.24 | cws | launchpad.net |
| 17:09.53 | cws | avu: given that netplan is a dependency of cloud-init, and how widely cloud-init is adopted, i doubt it |
| 17:10.26 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:10.48 | ratrace | maybe in ubuntu, I don't know how they package it. in debian, it's not. |
| 17:10.51 | jelly | probably a build-time optional one |
| 17:11.08 | jelly | ,depends cloud-init --release sid |
| 17:11.10 | judd | Package cloud-init in sid/amd64 -- depends: fdisk | util-linux (<< 2.29.2-3~), gdisk, ifupdown, locales, lsb-base, lsb-release, net-tools, procps, python3-configobj, python3-jinja2, python3-jsonpatch, python3-jsonschema, python3-oauthlib, python3-requests, python3-yaml, python3:any. |
| 17:11.20 | ratrace | has no reason to be build time dep. netplan.io _literally_ just translates yaml to ini and then triggers the backend into reconfiguring |
| 17:11.33 | rangergord | avu: idk why they dropped Unity. I like it better than Gnome. I still have to use Ubuntu 16.04 for an old toolchain and it's nicer than Gnome on Buster and CentOS 8. |
| 17:11.36 | cws | oh, sure enough. I often see netplan pulled in by cloud-init, but i guess that's not a hard dependency. |
| 17:12.09 | jelly | ratrace, I kind of agree with Canonical in not having to rely on systemd-networkd APIs and providing their own wrapper they can actually trust to be stable |
| 17:12.19 | jelly | systemd isn't good with stable APIs |
| 17:12.35 | ratrace | jelly: yah, that's called NIH. literally you just described NIH :) |
| 17:13.02 | rangergord | NIH implies no real value added. jelly just mentioned one value it adds, API stability. |
| 17:13.07 | jelly | and if some upstream explicitely says they won't keep API stable, then you want to NIH |
| 17:13.21 | cws | "netplan try" is worth it on its own. |
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| 17:13.23 | greycat | also https://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 17:13.41 | jelly | greycat, I just said that! |
| 17:14.38 | jelly | but if RH wants to play that way, well. |
| 17:14.53 | ratrace | RH opted for NM everywhere |
| 17:15.40 | ratrace | which means they think NM API is stable enough to support across the product line they have. which makes netplan.io even less needed. |
| 17:15.41 | rangergord | cws: I just learned about cloud-init from you now. What makes it so widely adopted? Who's adopting it? In which situations? I see their website but I'm trying to think how someone like me might use it, would help if I knew concrete scenarios. Is this like Docker, for when the host system isn't installed yet? |
| 17:16.18 | cws | Nearly every cloud provider or cloud infra uses it. OpenStack, AWS, GCE, OVH, Hetzner, and I could go on. |
| 17:16.25 | jelly | it's simple and easy enough |
| 17:16.55 | cws | Every VM deployed gets a config dumped on it via cloud-init. Can be as minimal as "create this user," or as complex as... well, it can get VERY complex. |
| 17:17.00 | jelly | I'd use it on private cloud if VMware supported it better |
| 17:17.09 | rangergord | cws: so what makes it different from that other popular tool HN won't shut up about, Terraform? Is it a rival? |
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| 17:18.35 | rangergord | cws: what does it give that Ansible doesn't? I've never used any of this cloud tech first-hand, just read about it |
| 17:19.00 | rangergord | cause Ansible lets you drop a config on one/many remote hosts |
| 17:19.40 | jelly | rangergord, ansible kind of requires you to get a host installed and network configured first. |
| 17:19.44 | rangergord | from just reading it's hard to understand how they're overlapping |
| 17:19.59 | jelly | and user installed and python available and root accessible |
| 17:20.07 | jelly | cloud-init comes sooner |
| 17:20.20 | rangergord | OK. So it's more like this? https://www.terraform.io/ |
| 17:20.41 | ratrace | actually ansible can run on the host locally, no network needed |
| 17:20.42 | jelly | it's a component used for an initial setup of a VM/container |
| 17:20.53 | ratrace | technically you can use ansible to do the same task cloud-init does, localhost |
| 17:21.05 | cws | Terraform uses cloud-init to do some of its early-stage config. |
| 17:21.05 | jelly | ratrace, that also requires OS _and_ ansible to magically be installed first |
| 17:21.20 | ratrace | so you can say that cloud-init is a subset of ansible functionality, aimed to be run locally, on boot. ansible is aimed to manage multiple distributed hosts |
| 17:21.44 | rangergord | so it's OS provisioning (cloud-init, Terraform) on cloud providers, vs configuration/management of a live OS (Ansible) |
| 17:22.03 | cws | cloud-init also does a lot of configuration. |
| 17:22.04 | rangergord | oh dammit, Terrafform and cloud-init must be used in combination apparently |
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| 17:22.08 | ratrace | jelly: so does cloud-init for localhost setup |
| 17:22.17 | cws | But it doesn't require enrollment, network connectivity, etc. |
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| 17:22.33 | rangergord | "While terraform is used to setup the virtual hardware resources, cloud-init is used to initialize the OS level configuration including: user accounts, ssh login keys, packages, and networking." |
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| 17:23.32 | rangergord | but then Terraform also seems to be able to do this stuff... |
| 17:23.52 | rangergord | is devops a constantly spinnign hamster wheel like Javascript development? |
| 17:24.25 | jelly | now you're getting somewhere |
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| 17:24.37 | ratrace | there's also saltstack, chef, puppet, .... |
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| 17:26.40 | rangergord | those are more like Ansible, in that they need a running system. These cloud tools are for tasks like "tell Amazon to create a VM with 6GB of RAM running Debian 10, user bob, network blah blah, then boot it". Then you would follow up with the Ansible/Saltstack/Chef/Puppet (I think) |
| 17:27.05 | rangergord | unless those 4 also support cloud provisioning, in which case I give up |
| 17:27.10 | ratrace | rangergord: you can do the same with ansible, saltstack, ... you just need a plugin for AWS APIs |
| 17:27.14 | ratrace | which afaik exist |
| 17:27.15 | rangergord | haha |
| 17:28.04 | ratrace | rangergord: cloud-init, while useful, is definitely not the only tool that can do that task. it only depends what you want, what you already have in your network, etc... |
| 17:28.07 | ratrace | https://www.ansible.com/integrations/cloud/amazon-web-services |
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| 17:28.37 | ratrace | personally, I use saltstack for all deployments now, including provisioning and thre's a bootstrapping agent included in VM images so when they fire up, they autoconfigure from the master settings |
| 17:29.59 | rangergord | https://i.imgur.com/Ssn5jdg.jpeg |
| 17:30.21 | ratrace | That's just FOSS. "If it exists, there's forks of it" :) |
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| 17:30.45 | ratrace | like a variation of rule 34 :) |
| 17:30.54 | jelly | Forks Of Stupid Software |
| 17:31.02 | ratrace | hah! |
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| 18:02.58 | strk | what Bluetooh manager plugin should I install to be able to send audio to the PC via bluetooth ? |
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| 18:51.40 | merazi | Hello, how's everyone doing? |
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| 18:58.34 | rangergord | !32-bit |
| 18:58.35 | alandipert | fantastic! just got buster installed, loving it. playing with lxc - very cool |
| 18:58.53 | greycat | !i386 |
| 18:58.53 | dpkg | Debian's i386 port is for some subset of the 32-bit x86 instruction set as has grown organically over the years. From Debian 6 Squeeze onwards, only 586 machines and newer are supported, while from Debian 9 Stretch, only 686 processors will be supported. See http://deb.li/3yPPV |
| 18:58.56 | rangergord | my man! |
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| 19:00.39 | rangergord | how can I install the 32-bit version of this library/package? https://debian.pkgs.org/10/debian-main-amd64/qt4-dev-tools_4.8.7+dfsg-18+deb10u1_amd64.deb.html |
| 19:00.50 | rangergord | on 64-bit Debian 10 |
| 19:01.07 | sney | !multiarch howto |
| 19:01.07 | dpkg | hmm... multiarch howto is http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/HOWTO |
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| 19:01.31 | rangergord | thank you |
| 19:02.10 | sney | not all packages are multiarch capable though, ymmv |
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| 19:06.32 | EdePopede | what is the way to run programs as root in a live system without getting a shell 5 levels deep in the process tree? |
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| 19:06.45 | alandipert | has anyone had success running google chrome in an unpriviledged lxc container? i quest for a working recipe |
| 19:07.12 | rangergord | sney: that one was, thankfully. We'll see if that's the only one I need to build this old app |
| 19:07.18 | nkuttler | EdePopede: more context? |
| 19:07.31 | EdePopede | i want a root terminal |
| 19:07.54 | nkuttler | EdePopede: open a console? |
| 19:08.27 | EdePopede | here (xfce) i have panel → gksudo → sudo → xterm → bash |
| 19:08.55 | EdePopede | and on the other pc (live) gksudo isn't even available, only pkexec and i can't make any sense out of the manpage |
| 19:09.01 | nkuttler | EdePopede: why not simply use sudo/su? |
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| 19:09.48 | EdePopede | doesn't really feel like a clean solution |
| 19:10.07 | EdePopede | panel → xterm → bash → sudo → bash or something |
| 19:10.07 | ratrace | hold on.... gksudo -> sudo ? I don't get it |
| 19:10.33 | ratrace | and yeah, gksudo is long one, these days you either pkexec or use admin URLs |
| 19:10.38 | ratrace | long *gone |
| 19:10.53 | EdePopede | *shrug* it's a starter it only has "gksudo xterm $bla" |
| 19:11.06 | EdePopede | never cared for what it does in the background |
| 19:11.14 | EdePopede | is it gnome or gtk? |
| 19:11.41 | EdePopede | can't even say *why* i used it, happened years ago |
| 19:12.15 | EdePopede | oh and pkexec doesn't even give me an error in the terminal because suid and secure formating or w/e |
| 19:13.04 | EdePopede | can't open display. of course the :0.0 is defined in the env of that xterm, no idea why it doesn't see it. |
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| 19:15.44 | ratrace | EdePopede: I mean why would you run sudo after gksudo'ing something ... or if I misunderstood, what do you mean with gksudo -> sudo -> xterm -> bash? |
| 19:15.57 | EdePopede | "gksudo xterm" |
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| 19:16.01 | EdePopede | there's no sudo |
| 19:16.14 | ratrace | but you're already in a term... why gksudo xterm? |
| 19:16.15 | somiaj | More and more it is getting harder to run things in xorg (as root) from a terminal even if you have DISPLAY set correctly, partly because the enviorment is clobbered. |
| 19:16.20 | EdePopede | blame the gksudo team for doing it so |
| 19:16.31 | EdePopede | no, xfce start button |
| 19:16.40 | ratrace | ah a launcher |
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| 19:16.51 | EdePopede | i'm really waiting for something as easy as windows has with "run as..." |
| 19:17.03 | rangergord | sney: well, the libraries seem to support 386, but both qt4-qmake and qt4-qmake:i386 install to /usr/bin/qmake. In my case I want to work on both a 32-bit and 64-bit Qt app. Guess this won't be a trivial matter. |
| 19:17.09 | EdePopede | right click, open the dialog, select the user, done |
| 19:17.58 | EdePopede | i can login as every user with an account in text mode, but in a DE it's a rabbit hole to open a root terminal |
| 19:18.27 | ratrace | EdePopede: and funny thing is, such a program would be dead easy to write. based on pkexec/polkit for permission delegation |
| 19:19.25 | EdePopede | for a kernel developer maybe, but not for 99% of the users in the wild |
| 19:19.26 | ratrace | meanwhile, I never found it too difficult to start a term and run su -l. |
| 19:19.36 | EdePopede | isn't su dead? |
| 19:19.41 | somiaj | no, su is not dead |
| 19:19.43 | ratrace | no? |
| 19:20.06 | EdePopede | i thought "use sudo, not su" was debian policy for years |
| 19:20.33 | ratrace | sudo -i or su -l effectively do the same thing |
| 19:20.45 | EdePopede | it was odd when i first encountered it on some knoppix disc years ago, but i got used to it |
| 19:21.37 | aminvakil | ratrace: isn't one of them require user password and other one root password? |
| 19:21.38 | EdePopede | anyway, is there a reason to keep a user shell below the root shell? |
| 19:21.58 | cws | aminvakil: by default, yes. |
| 19:22.16 | EdePopede | or could i have xterm start bash under root account doing some kind of auth? |
| 19:22.17 | aminvakil | ah, "effectively do the same thing" sure, they just do it differently |
| 19:22.34 | ratrace | aminvakil: yes |
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| 19:23.15 | cws | aminvakil: in its default invocation, sudo does something rather different. sudo allows you to run a single command under the context of a different user. su, in its default invocation, spawns a full new shell as the target user. By default, the target user in both cases is root. |
| 19:23.16 | EdePopede | ah, so gksu is just a frontend to su/sudo |
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| 19:23.30 | cws | Yes, there are different invocations that cause sudo and su to overlap, but by default, that's the difference. |
| 19:23.38 | alexrelis[m] | Anyone here do eGPU on their laptop? Is it worth the effort? |
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| 19:23.54 | somiaj | anyways, I think the issue is it is probably a bad idea to have a general tool that allows easy use to run abitary binaries as root (sudo with ALL permissions is even considered bad) |
| 19:24.05 | aminvakil | cws: yep, thanks for explanation. |
| 19:24.06 | somiaj | that and they keep changing which tools are best used for privlage essiclation on the desktop |
| 19:24.35 | EdePopede | tbh i even have a bad feeling with the cached passwords for sudo |
| 19:24.38 | ratrace | cws: no there's no such difference between sudo -i and su -l . both spawn a shell in full login context. and both can run a specific command, and as another user. sudo, however, has an entire language for expressing sudoer contexts and permissions |
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| 19:24.46 | somiaj | EdePopede: I thought gksu was removed from debian a few release ago in favor of polkit (which debian still use, but policykit is now the standard) |
| 19:24.52 | cws | ratrace: what part of "default invocation" exceeded your ability to comprehend? |
| 19:25.06 | cws | ratrace: Stop typing, scroll up, read again, and try harder. |
| 19:25.06 | somiaj | ratrace: well the password you enter is a difference, but the result is not |
| 19:25.08 | EdePopede | some blackhat tool would just have to sit in the background and wait for me to use it and then get a root shell. |
| 19:25.16 | ratrace | cws: still wrong in this comparison example |
| 19:25.27 | jhutchins | aminvakil: There have always been philosophical differences about whether to use su - (root shell) or sudo commands. It really depends on your environment and what you're trying to "secure" it from. |
| 19:25.28 | EdePopede | somiaj: on 9, but don't ask me for the codename |
| 19:25.30 | ratrace | somiaj: yes, one requires root password, the other your user's |
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| 19:25.42 | cws | ratrace: "default invocation" - again, stop typing, read up, and develop basic reading skills. |
| 19:25.59 | EdePopede | somiaj: also has polkit but it seems i never got behind it. or it was just new, who knows. |
| 19:26.02 | cws | ratrace: Jesus, you are just a font of foolishness today. |
| 19:26.10 | somiaj | EdePopede: Sometimes it is just helpful to get use to more standard tools, I personally use sudo which is fairly independent and works to easily get root shells or run things as root. |
| 19:26.17 | ratrace | cws: here's a clue kid. /ignore works wonders. put me on the list, and stfu. |
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| 19:26.29 | cws | If you're specifying options after the command, its not the default invocation. I don't know how this is so hard to comprehend. |
| 19:26.32 | jhutchins | EdePopede: It wouldn't matter if an attacker got the root password or the password of a user that had sudo access. |
| 19:27.07 | EdePopede | somiaj: yeah, i don't need it too often with a root terminal open, but it really is convenient (besides tabbing sbin entries) |
| 19:27.46 | EdePopede | jhutchins: does a keylogger work without root access? |
| 19:27.56 | jhutchins | The main advantage of sudo is it allows you to give specific users root permissions for _some_ commands, and log the commands. |
| 19:28.04 | somiaj | EdePopede: but when it comes to desktops, each desktop might do things a bit different, xfce being more light weight might not have all of this configured using polkit as a full featured DE such as gnome/kde you might have things more configured |
| 19:28.34 | cws | jhutchins: I don't even use sudo to grant root access to stuff. I use it to grant a shell or execute certain commands as other non-root accounts, like a service account. |
| 19:28.38 | somiaj | same thing is true for those who use just simple wm, in the gui world, there is a lot of variety, so unless you are using some very big destkop, you may not have everything easily setup though the gui |
| 19:28.45 | rangergord | jhutchins: for 99.9% of people it just means "that word I gotta type before my command to make it work" |
| 19:29.05 | greycat | cws: setpriv(1) |
| 19:29.07 | aminvakil | EdePopede: you can add /sbin to your $PATH and you would be fine with "tabbing sbin entries" |
| 19:29.09 | EdePopede | wah gnome. a mostrosity. already the gtk bits firefox comes with piss me off. and i dropped kde together with suse years ago, iirc i didn't even make it to 4. |
| 19:29.40 | somiaj | EdePopede: sure but part of what you get with a monstrosity is a more full featured DE, that you don't have to additonally configure. |
| 19:29.46 | ratrace | EdePopede: awww. and suse used to be the flagship representative KDE environment |
| 19:29.49 | jhutchins | aminvakil: You do not need to add sbin to your path, you need to use the correct format of the command. |
| 19:29.49 | rangergord | EdePopede: modern KDE is great. It's like the Windows of Linux. |
| 19:30.10 | jhutchins | rangergord: I would not consider that a positive endorsement. |
| 19:30.13 | EdePopede | aminvakil: sure, but i prefer to keep things genuine. like i removed the predefined command aliases in hexchat (some oddities are hardcoded unfortunately). |
| 19:30.16 | cws | greycat: never messed with that too much - i'll check it out. |
| 19:30.24 | somiaj | EdePopede: though my advise is often learn more core tools like su/sudo gives one a bit more freedom and less requirements. |
| 19:30.25 | rangergord | jhutchins: that's cause you're the gentoo of #debian |
| 19:30.35 | EdePopede | rangergord: why, did they remove all the tweaks? ;) |
| 19:31.00 | aminvakil | jhutchins: not all binaries are included in /usr/bin and /bin iirc (in debian buster at least) |
| 19:31.14 | EdePopede | somiaj: definitely. i only would like to avoid 5 levels of commands to just get a root shell :/ |
| 19:31.16 | jhutchins | aminvakil: Right. |
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| 19:31.50 | rangergord | aminvakil: not even basic stuff like usermod. So to get tab completion on "sudo usermod <whatever", you gotta edit your bashrc and add sbin to PATH |
| 19:31.59 | rangergord | one of the QoL things that surprised me when I came from Ubuntu |
| 19:32.00 | aminvakil | so for tab completion to work with binaries in /sbin, that needs to be added to $PATH, right? |
| 19:32.05 | greycat | su and sudo are both designed to create a new session with new privileges, for extended interactive use, so they call PAM, they have whole PAM configs, they jump through all kinds of hoops, log all kinds of stuff... you don't want that when you're launching a daemon |
| 19:33.28 | jhutchins | aminvakil: The default paths are configured the way they are for good reasons. If you use the correct tools they work just fine. |
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| 19:33.48 | jhutchins | If you're writing scripts, you should ALWAYS use explicit full paths. |
| 19:33.50 | aminvakil | ah, now i see what you meant |
| 19:33.56 | greycat | jhutchins: NO. |
| 19:34.08 | greycat | That is the opposite of what you should do. |
| 19:34.14 | aminvakil | i'm pretty sure debian has its own reasons on what to include and not to include in $PATH by default |
| 19:34.25 | greycat | !buster su |
| 19:34.25 | dpkg | In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). See https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes for details. |
| 19:34.36 | jhutchins | greycat: it's a policy that's served me well across multiple operating systems. |
| 19:34.42 | greycat | aminvakil: you might think that, but it would be unrealistically optimistic |
| 19:34.50 | aminvakil | greycat: :) |
| 19:35.05 | jelly | aminvakil, sometimes those reasons are cargo-culted and debian is VERY VERY slow at changing default settings |
| 19:35.24 | aminvakil | that doesn't suit me, so changing .bashrc is one of first things i do when i install a new debian |
| 19:35.35 | jelly | and that's just fine. |
| 19:35.40 | greycat | Expected. |
| 19:35.45 | jelly | ping used to be in a sbin dir for a long time |
| 19:36.01 | ratrace | because it was suid. now it grew fcaps |
| 19:36.14 | ratrace | and is no longer a ticking bomb |
| 19:36.20 | aminvakil | that's what i was trying to tell EdePopede, but when jhutchins stated that "You do not need to add sbin to your path, you need to use the correct format of the command", i thought there is something that i'm missing |
| 19:36.25 | jelly | that's not a reason to keep it in sbin |
| 19:36.39 | greycat | aminvakil: jhutchins is on crack today. |
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| 19:37.17 | greycat | If you followed jhutchins's strategy and used /sbin/ping in your scripts, then when ping moved out of /sbin, all your scripts just broke. |
| 19:37.29 | jhutchins | greycat: I assume you're sayng NO for portability to systems with different file locations. |
| 19:37.30 | aminvakil | greycat: :), well maybe they're fine typing /sbin/command each and every time :P |
| 19:37.38 | jelly | ratrace, in fact, setuid explicitely, deliberatly allows non-root to do things. It's useless for a root-owned binary that is meant only to be run by root |
| 19:37.39 | EdePopede | i think i've also read something around full path or not in the context of env shebangs. only can't remember what. |
| 19:37.44 | greycat | jhutchins: even across debian releases |
| 19:37.47 | jelly | you know all that anyway |
| 19:38.16 | greycat | EdePopede: you may be thinking of #!/bin/bash vs. #!/usr/bin/env bash |
| 19:38.22 | jhutchins | greycat: Maintain your shit, no problems. |
| 19:38.43 | jhutchins | Read the changelogs. |
| 19:38.46 | EdePopede | greycat: not sure, is there also something with the usage of env's path? |
| 19:38.49 | greycat | jhutchins: or do it correctly in the first place and then you won't have to "maintain" it every release |
| 19:39.15 | jelly | even "ip" used to be in /sbin |
| 19:39.29 | greycat | ifconfig still is |
| 19:39.34 | aminvakil | now i |
| 19:39.53 | jelly | and /usr may or may not exist or be a symlink or whatever |
| 19:40.03 | aminvakil | now i'm getting what jelly and greycat meant about "debian has its own reasons" i've said before ... |
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| 19:40.41 | jelly | aminvakil, we might whine about debian's shortcomings but it's still the least worst distro |
| 19:41.41 | ratrace | jelly: I guess ping is "not essential for boot process", using the hier(7) criteria, then |
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| 19:43.06 | aminvakil | jelly: indeed |
| 19:43.09 | ratrace | it's dumb any way you look at it. zfs and zpool for example. essential for boot process? may be. but also tools that are executed for informative reasons and don't even require root |
| 19:43.50 | ratrace | if you ask _me_, I'd go one step ahead with usrmerge and merge sbin and bin. initramfs really made all that irrelevant |
| 19:43.50 | greycat | ratrace: under the traditional design, then, those would go in /bin |
| 19:44.06 | ratrace | greycat: yes but they're in sbin, presumably because they're essential for boot |
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| 19:44.32 | greycat | the distinction between bin and sbin is the latter contains tools that are "designed to be used almost exclusively by sysadmins" |
| 19:44.51 | greycat | whether they abort without root privs, or not |
| 19:45.33 | greycat | "essential for booting" is what separates /usr from / |
| 19:45.46 | ratrace | well, "essential for booting" is what hier(7) says about sbin |
| 19:45.47 | greycat | because traditionally the /usr file system may not be available early in boot |
| 19:46.11 | ratrace | which may or may not be reasonable in 2021. personally the "sysadmin" criteria also is weak distinction |
| 19:47.17 | ratrace | some people (me included) just cram sbin in the regular path because there's really no security boundaryd there. just an annoyance where you need to use full path to access the tools as non-root (and not using su/sudo) |
| 19:47.57 | greycat | I did that too. |
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| 19:49.12 | ratrace | so perhaps you could agree that bin and sbin could be merged in some future :) |
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| 19:51.22 | greycat | I haven't really done any research on the issue to see whether it would cause problems. I have no objection to it on interface grounds. |
| 19:52.38 | EdePopede | don't forget that the 4 *bin directories also do some sorting. having everything in a single directory would create a horror scenario for every new user who doesn't learn linux in a 6 month course. |
| 19:53.08 | aminvakil | fwiw it's been almost 8 years since arch has done this, https://archlinux.org/news/binaries-move-to-usrbin-requiring-update-intervention/ |
| 19:53.33 | jelly | well, another 8 years and debian might catch up |
| 19:54.24 | jelly | we did have ifconfig by default for like 18 years after ip was declared replacement |
| 19:54.52 | ratrace | EdePopede: I'm not sure sorting is relevant. and if there's clashes in naming ... well... that'd be terrible as putting sbin onto PATH with bin is not unusual for distros |
| 19:55.47 | EdePopede | ratrace: i'm glad i don't touch linux in 2021 for the first time, but did so in the 90s already. debian was 2 CDs back then instead of 16 DVDs. |
| 19:56.11 | ratrace | jhutchins did have a point with full paths. not using full paths is what apparently caused this little laughable gem: https://askubuntu.com/questions/938606/dwarf-fortress-starting-during-apt-get-upgrade |
| 19:56.23 | EdePopede | and one of the tasks to understand and know what it can do and actually does was to look at the programs i could start. |
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| 19:57.26 | ratrace | having been a *nix beginner once too, I'm sure that wouldn't've made a difference too me. it'd all be overwhelming one way or another :) |
| 19:57.26 | EdePopede | do a basic ham install, list the binaries and remove everything from coreurils, bsdutils, util-linux. (no X for the moment). how much would be left? |
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| 19:58.08 | ratrace | I learned my *nix on gentoo and LFS. so minimal {s}bin/ would really make no difference |
| 19:58.24 | EdePopede | the functionality of the default tools was definitely. i used grep to filter some entries from some files on the DOS partition, because MS FIND was just too stupid to do what it was told to :P |
| 19:59.24 | ratrace | my first contact with *nix was a VAX machine, but I got more involved with unix with BSD at uni. early 1990s. |
| 20:00.56 | EdePopede | LFS? all i had access to was what i could buy in a kiosk or bookshop. and not all of them had linux available. we have 2 in town which are part of publishing companies (also in town) and another one mostly specialized on medicine, but also had a nice niche with computer related topics. |
| 20:01.06 | EdePopede | lucky you! |
| 20:01.15 | ratrace | it wasn't until I ditched windows in mid 2000s and started digging through gentoo and LFS, where I learned the guts of linux and how it all works together |
| 20:01.43 | EdePopede | i always wished i could get my hands on a real vt100 just to understand wtf this is with the textronik window in xterm |
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| 20:02.29 | ratrace | EdePopede: LFS - Linux From Scratch. it isn't even a distro but a guidebook on how to assemble linux .... from scratch :) |
| 20:02.57 | EdePopede | i know, i had it on my list until i dropped it. because i just don't like to play games with my working equipment. |
| 20:03.36 | EdePopede | also gentoo, just to see another way of doing things. |
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| 20:03.52 | HelloShitty | Hello everyone. I have this config file for logrotate: https://pastebin.com/2gLqqtNe and I just forced logrotate to run with `sudo logrotate -f /etc/logrotate.conf`. This debug.log file is now with 1.7Gb. Why didn't it rotate? |
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| 20:04.13 | EdePopede | at least i had Suse, so rpm, so i could at least look at these. |
| 20:04.47 | ratrace | HelloShitty: which $HOME is really ~/ referring to? root's or some other? |
| 20:05.19 | ratrace | EdePopede: you dropped it "just in time" before KDE4 debacle with suse 11 :) |
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| 20:06.29 | EdePopede | ratrace: whas it the version with that odd interface thingy in the corners? |
| 20:06.55 | HelloShitty | ratrace, What you mean? I'm using my login right now |
| 20:07.23 | imMute | HelloShitty: when logrotate runs as root ~ likely refers to root's home dir, not your user's. |
| 20:07.26 | HelloShitty | You mean because I ran it with sudo? |
| 20:07.47 | HelloShitty | hum, ok but logrotate is not "recognized" if I don't use sudo |
| 20:08.03 | greycat | if you use ~ in a sudo command, the question is which shell does the tilde expansion, and what the value of HOME is at that moment |
| 20:08.05 | imMute | HelloShitty: that's because it's in a path that is not in your $PATH. like /usr/sbin/ |
| 20:08.27 | imMute | greycat: the ~ is in the logrotate conf, not the shell command. (but you're absolutely correct in that it matters) |
| 20:08.39 | ratrace | EdePopede: the "cashew"? Yup |
| 20:08.54 | ratrace | HelloShitty: I mean your paste is referencing ~/ . which path is that? |
| 20:08.59 | greycat | I would not put ~ in a logrotate config file, ever. What is the intent there? |
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| 20:09.06 | ratrace | or what greycat said |
| 20:09.24 | EdePopede | ratrace: suse had it as preview in the last version i used. 3.99pre or something, didn't even work as propagated and was just odd. |
| 20:10.33 | EdePopede | ratrace: but some time later i installed debian/kde4 on the computer of a guy who managed to drag his radio from the firefox bookmark into a submenu and called me the next day to fix it xD |
| 20:10.51 | ratrace | heh |
| 20:10.53 | EdePopede | the rest of the time i had nothing to do with it, "it just worked"™ |
| 20:11.19 | ratrace | KDE4 got a lot of flak because it changed a lot of things badly |
| 20:11.32 | ratrace | things got better with plasma |
| 20:11.46 | jelly | HelloShitty, logrotate has a design issue that basically makes it rotate each file once a day and not more often, even if you call it more often |
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| 20:12.22 | EdePopede | not the naming, such changes (as with firefox) always confuse me and i usually don't get it sorted into the known versioning scheme. Java2 also was similar iirc. |
| 20:13.03 | HelloShitty | jelly, even if you have seetings like maxsize and the file grows bigger than that in less than a day? |
| 20:13.04 | ratrace | well "Plasma" changed the versioning too.. it's basically 5.x but separated components and the versioning is now all over the place |
| 20:13.14 | jelly | HelloShitty, yes |
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| 20:13.33 | EdePopede | anyway, "sudo -i xterm" somehow worked. got a root shell in an xterm. |
| 20:13.36 | jelly | HelloShitty, read about --state and /var/lib/logrotate/status and look at that file's contents |
| 20:14.19 | EdePopede | now i have 2 xterms with a root shell, different approaches. |
| 20:14.32 | HelloShitty | ok |
| 20:14.34 | HelloShitty | will do |
| 20:14.58 | EdePopede | pamel → xterm → bash => sudo -i → bash ## the one i opened before |
| 20:15.16 | jelly | I don't know the best or any way to work around this, I just noticed it worked that way |
| 20:15.36 | jelly | who's pamel |
| 20:15.46 | EdePopede | xfsettingsd → xfce4-appfinder --collapsed => sudo -i xterm → xterm → bash ## the one from the alt-f2 starter now |
| 20:15.56 | EdePopede | s/pamel/panel/ |
| 20:16.09 | jelly | whose panel |
| 20:16.11 | jelly | hides |
| 20:16.14 | EdePopede | one of the reasons why i'll never be able to vim like a pro :/ |
| 20:16.17 | EdePopede | ah lol |
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| 20:16.21 | EdePopede | xfce4 |
| 20:16.47 | EdePopede | => denotes the start of root ownership |
| 20:17.22 | jelly | what's appfinder, that thing on Alt-F2? I'm not in front of xfce right now |
| 20:17.28 | EdePopede | yep |
| 20:17.34 | jelly | KDE calls its "krunner" |
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| 20:17.40 | EdePopede | let me check if it works on this one |
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| 20:18.43 | EdePopede | no. hunting the "why". |
| 20:19.42 | EdePopede | not even after running the command in the terminal, so it doesn't seem to be a password issue |
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| 20:22.10 | HelloShitty | ok, the state file shows the path without being expanded, therefore, a ~/.bitcoin/debug.log |
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| 20:22.55 | HelloShitty | somiaj, I changed the path from ' ~/.bitcoin/debug.log' to '/home/psysc0rpi0n/.bitcoin.debug.log' |
| 20:23.01 | HelloShitty | somiaj, I changed the path from ' ~/.bitcoin/debug.log' to '/home/psysc0rpi0n/.bitcoin/debug.log' |
| 20:23.08 | HelloShitty | so |
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| 20:23.27 | HelloShitty | and forced the logrotate to run |
| 20:23.47 | HelloShitty | and the debug.log file was rotated, but now, the new file is not being written |
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| 20:23.59 | ratrace | HelloShitty: permissions changed? |
| 20:23.59 | HelloShitty | no debug info is being writton into this file |
| 20:24.23 | ratrace | HelloShitty: ah also, you need to signal the daemons that write into debug.log to reopen log files |
| 20:24.38 | HelloShitty | no |
| 20:24.40 | HelloShitty | -rw------- 1 psysc0rpi0n psysc0rpi0n 0 Apr 7 21:17 debug.log |
| 20:24.42 | HelloShitty | -rw------- 1 psysc0rpi0n psysc0rpi0n 1.7G Apr 7 21:17 debug.log.1 |
| 20:24.56 | ratrace | right right. so signal the whatever daemon is creating that |
| 20:25.29 | HelloShitty | signal? Meaning that I need to restart the application? |
| 20:25.32 | ratrace | logrotate(8) has pre or postrotate commands you can use to do that, with examples |
| 20:26.02 | ratrace | HelloShitty: depends how the daemon is written. nginx, for example, will use the HUP signal to reopen logs |
| 20:26.27 | HelloShitty | I have no idea what you are talking about. :\ |
| 20:26.28 | ratrace | a daemon must be written to handle a signal (or some other way to "signal" it to reopen logs) |
| 20:26.45 | HelloShitty | Can I check that somehow? |
| 20:27.06 | ratrace | HelloShitty: it's simple. rotating logfiles messes up teh file handle. whichever daemon had it open to write into it, must be made to reopen the logfile |
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| 20:27.19 | ratrace | HelloShitty: you can look into the documentation or source code of the daemon that's writing the logfile |
| 20:27.42 | HelloShitty | jeezzz |
| 20:28.02 | ratrace | well rotating logfiles and having facilities to handle that is common with *nix daemons. |
| 20:28.23 | ratrace | if someone wrote whatever daemon you're using, without that in mind.... well.... file a bug report. or simply restart/reload the app |
| 20:28.39 | HelloShitty | this is bitcoin core |
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| 20:28.52 | HelloShitty | they must rely on debug files to be hable to fix problems, for sure |
| 20:29.16 | ratrace | HelloShitty: can't you restart teh daemon? |
| 20:29.38 | HelloShitty | I didn't want to, because there are more applications using bitcoin core |
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| 20:29.45 | HelloShitty | somiaj, I will have to restart them all |
| 20:29.57 | ratrace | using it _how_ exactly? |
| 20:30.06 | HelloShitty | RPC interface mostly |
| 20:30.27 | ratrace | and they can't handle the service going away for a short moment? |
| 20:31.03 | HelloShitty | I'm not sure, but I think they will crash in the same moment |
| 20:31.24 | HelloShitty | one is a Lightning Network daemon and 2 other are web applications that are constantly probing bitcoin core |
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| 20:31.28 | ratrace | HelloShitty: but really, you should look into docs or source of the daemon. if it is not designed to handle logfile rotation (via signal(2) or some other API), your only otehr option is to restart it |
| 20:31.50 | HelloShitty | ok, will ask on their dev channel |
| 20:32.39 | ratrace | HelloShitty: another option, see if using "copytruncate" logrotate.conf directive helps |
| 20:33.12 | ratrace | it truncates the same file in place after creating a copy, instead of moving teh file and thus messing up file handles. BUT it may cause log corruption |
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| 20:36.29 | darsie | How do I install GLIBC_2.29 on stable? |
| 20:36.35 | greycat | You don't. |
| 20:36.38 | greycat | ,v libc6 |
| 20:36.39 | judd | Package: libc6 on amd64 -- jessie: 2.19-18+deb8u10; jessie-security: 2.19-18+deb8u10; stretch-security: 2.24-11+deb9u1; stretch: 2.24-11+deb9u4; buster: 2.28-10; bullseye: 2.31-11; sid: 2.31-11 |
| 20:36.40 | darsie | dang |
| 20:36.49 | darsie | I want to play Surviving Mars. |
| 20:37.16 | greycat | Well, you either upgrade to testing/bullseye, or you set up a VM or a chroot or something, and put bullseye inside that. |
| 20:37.42 | darsie | thx ... |
| 20:38.09 | ratrace | darsie: get it on steam. maybe you can migrate your license key if you bought it elsewhere |
| 20:38.24 | darsie | I just bought it on gog. |
| 20:38.43 | ratrace | darsie: could be possible to migrate |
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| 20:38.54 | darsie | Migrate to what? |
| 20:38.58 | ratrace | to steam |
| 20:39.05 | darsie | and then? |
| 20:39.14 | ratrace | also, steam has the ability to run external games. maybe, just maybe, it does so with its own runtime libc, in which case it could work |
| 20:39.22 | ratrace | darsie: and then steam has its own runtime and libc |
| 20:39.39 | ratrace | and I see the game is certified to run on linux. which means it _will_ run on debian's installation of steam |
| 20:40.17 | ratrace | steam comes with its own runtime environment and doesn't depend on silly distro differences and lib versions. |
| 20:40.27 | darsie | A friend said buying on gog is good cause it doesn't use DRM. |
| 20:40.59 | ratrace | well you got the options now. choose whichever one you want. |
| 20:41.04 | darsie | ok |
| 20:43.27 | greycat | steam downloads a bunch of ubuntu binaries/libraries and uses those |
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| 20:44.11 | HelloShitty | ok ratrace , will see about copytruncate |
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| 20:46.32 | ratrace | greycat: yes, steam "runtime" is based on ubuntu 12.04. it's not as dirty as it sounds, though, it's contained in a single directory |
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| 20:59.56 | EdePopede | is the history handling on bash fixed in stable or at least the one after it? |
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| 21:00.49 | ratrace | EdePopede: what do you mean? |
| 21:01.13 | EdePopede | for example histappend is ignored. it is off but it appends at quit |
| 21:01.53 | EdePopede | and then changing HISTCONTROL to ignoreboth:erasedups works as expected only after another command is executed and then the HISTCONTROL is set again |
| 21:02.42 | EdePopede | which is fine for a running shell but because of the behaviour at quit it still dumps its content on top of HISTFILE |
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| 21:03.15 | EdePopede | so the next shell that is opened already starts with a huge cluttered history with a lot of doubled entries |
| 21:03.44 | EdePopede | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:03.58 | EdePopede | that's my solution for this machine, rebuild it from a clean source on request |
| 21:05.18 | greycat | What's the bug number? |
| 21:06.37 | EdePopede | i had the pleasure to see this live again on the other PC because i fixed some startup values, fixed it, then history -w, then opened it later in a terminal and all was fine first. now even some of the entries i only used before logging into X are doubled. |
| 21:06.57 | EdePopede | greycat: what bug number? |
| 21:07.17 | greycat | of your bug, which you've rambled on about at length |
| 21:07.53 | EdePopede | what you call rambling was answering a question. which usually is considered good behaviour. |
| 21:08.49 | oxek | EdePopede: I "fixed" that bash issue by using zsh for interactive sessions (and running bash when needed). |
| 21:08.57 | oxek | bash has really annoying handling of history |
| 21:09.06 | EdePopede | besides that i would not even know where to report it and even if i'd have to create a new account every time |
| 21:09.25 | oxek | erasedups does not work the way you'd expect in bash |
| 21:09.28 | oxek | and that's by design |
| 21:10.25 | EdePopede | oxek: i wanted to look at zsh, also csh years ago, but with bash being the default shell even 2 decades ago i preferred to stay with one instead juggling with 3 of them |
| 21:11.02 | oxek | EdePopede: you don't need to switch, you can run bash from zsh whenever you want |
| 21:11.04 | EdePopede | oh it does. only not when i set the variable initially, could see it again right now. |
| 21:11.08 | oxek | but for interactive use, zsh is superior |
| 21:11.17 | greycat | !bts |
| 21:11.18 | dpkg | Bug Tracking System for Debian packages, http://bugs.debian.org/ or to go directly to the bug page for a particular package/bug, try http://bugs.debian.org/packagename or http://bugs.debian.org/bugnumber . aptitude install reportbug, and check out <querybts> too. Users of unstable and testing are required to check the BTS. See also <apt-listbugs>, <reportbug>. http://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS |
| 21:11.21 | oxek | I don't know anything about csh |
| 21:11.42 | EdePopede | oxek: i prefer to stay with ONE tool of a kind until i'm using it on a pro level |
| 21:12.22 | EdePopede | lost enough time trying to find a text editor, a mail client, etc.. which fit my needs. |
| 21:12.25 | ratrace | I liked csh a lot, but hated the fact you couldn't do things like for loops on the single line |
| 21:13.05 | EdePopede | you can learn spanish and russian at the same time, but just don't try it with spanish, portuguese and italian. won't work for most people. |
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| 21:13.25 | oxek | EdePopede: in that case, I can only tell you that this behavior you're observing in bash is annoying, and is by design, and will not change |
| 21:14.21 | oxek | also, in case you end up with any mac devices, they have zsh by default now, so zsh might be useful to know |
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| 21:15.32 | greycat | EdePopede: there's also https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/088 |
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| 21:15.59 | greycat | but if you have been in #debian for god knows how many years and don't even know how the bug system works, I don't have high hopes for you |
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| 21:18.39 | darsie | How bad/mature is bullseye? |
| 21:18.40 | *** join/#debian Franciman (~francesco@host-87-20-23-243.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 21:18.43 | oxek | there's also `bashbug` command |
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| 21:19.21 | oxek | darsie: not mature yet |
| 21:19.27 | darsie | thx |
| 21:19.49 | oxek | it's not even released yet |
| 21:19.59 | darsie | ik, it's testing. |
| 21:20.01 | greycat | it's in the freeze phase, so bugs are being stomped on |
| 21:20.19 | darsie | Well, that's something. |
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| 21:20.48 | oxek | bugs are always being stomped on, and new bugs are being developed all the time as well :) |
| 21:21.04 | ratrace | Would You Like to Know More? :) |
| 21:21.06 | EdePopede | greycat: nice solutions, only just the opposite of what i need. so i have to first run 3 commands from history after login to get it working as i want it, then before logout i better set HISTFILE= or to some unique name - or maybe even from the beginning, so bash has no chance to write to the file. tested this already, works pretty good. i only have to manually copy commands i want to keep around for later |
| 21:21.07 | EdePopede | manually into the master file, that's all. |
| 21:21.10 | oxek | ratrace: nice one :) |
| 21:21.15 | ratrace | ;) |
| 21:21.41 | EdePopede | oxek: mac? never. |
| 21:22.00 | oxek | EdePopede: you might get a "free" mac machine for work |
| 21:22.25 | EdePopede | won't happen. |
| 21:22.42 | darsie | dpkg bullseye has this dead link: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2020/03/msg00002.html, |
| 21:22.42 | dpkg | darsie: You are person #1 to send an unparseable request |
| 21:23.03 | oxek | in any case, it means zsh has had a large influx of people using it, thanks to being mac default |
| 21:23.26 | sney | darsie: that link is fine, make sure your irc client/browser isn't parsing the comma |
| 21:23.43 | darsie | mhm |
| 21:24.23 | oxek | should we remove the comma from the factoid? |
| 21:24.28 | EdePopede | oxek: i may switch to ARM something in the future because Wintel and IME and all the crap, something where debian will run, but i definitely won't buy a poisoned fruit. |
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| 21:24.50 | cws | oh my lord, can we get past the vendor bashing please? it stopped being cool 20 years ago |
| 21:25.00 | EdePopede | even if it's a raspi or something similar, it's fine. |
| 21:25.43 | EdePopede | i have my reasons, it ain't bashing. at least not for most people. |
| 21:26.26 | cws | if you can't make a statement without leaning on edge-lord stuff like "poisoned fruit," you're not discussing, you're bashing. |
| 21:26.56 | EdePopede | seems you missed the news for many years. right to repair, walled garden, nothing? |
| 21:27.18 | cws | Okay, those are actual statements. Welcome to a fact-based discussion, its nice to have you with us. |
| 21:27.33 | EdePopede | there's a reason why i ditched XP for Linux on this PC, at it was not only its annoying behaviour. |
| 21:27.48 | sney | darsie: IME bullseye is fine as a desktop/laptop in its current state. haven't updated any webservers yet, but I'd imagine it's similarly usable for that. for best results, don't upgrade unless you are familiar enough with debian tools to unbreak any problems that may arise. |
| 21:28.00 | cws | ps macs aren't walled gardens, and if someone told you that, you should question their knowledge on the subject |
| 21:28.26 | darsie | sney: thx. I want it as desktop and play Surviving Mars. |
| 21:28.59 | darsie | Not sure if I'm familiar enough for unbreaking. I'll bother you if the need arises ;). |
| 21:29.22 | sney | well, bother #debian-next on OFTC (note, right now you are on freenode) - that's the official testing support channel |
| 21:29.35 | darsie | interesting. |
| 21:29.35 | sney | I am there along with a few hundred others |
| 21:29.40 | darsie | ok |
| 21:30.32 | oxek | is the oftc channel active though? |
| 21:31.01 | sney | it's as active as any support channel, when it needs to be |
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| 21:31.37 | oxek | how about the amount of offtopic banter in it? |
| 21:31.52 | sney | I don't have statistics for you oxek, sorry |
| 21:32.08 | oxek | no problem. You sound like a bot there. |
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| 21:36.35 | ratrace | lol |
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| 21:40.43 | EdePopede | oh right, the first thing i was asking for some time ago |
| 21:40.46 | EdePopede | > edit /etc/default/console-setup # CHARMAP="UTF-8" |
| 21:41.01 | EdePopede | added something to Grub, but it had no effect |
| 21:41.13 | EdePopede | does it have an option for this setting? |
| 21:43.34 | oxek | EdePopede: what are you trying to achieve? |
| 21:43.51 | ratrace | EdePopede: looking at initramfs-tools scripts, there doesn't seem to be a cmdline option used by "keymap" and setupcon(1) |
| 21:44.12 | EdePopede | to have a proper environment after start. everything works only the charset stays on latin1 |
| 21:44.24 | ratrace | the keymap hook is placing setupcon(1) into initramfs, but that uses teh configured /etc/defaults/console-setup file which is also copied. |
| 21:45.11 | EdePopede | ratrace: i just add some options to the grub entry. odd enough that i'm using the localized one and still so many things must be set. |
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| 21:46.23 | oxek | I'd be surprised if adding something to grub entry would modify charmaps/locales |
| 21:46.38 | KNERD | I set up a web site on apache. I see the ownership is "root" but there is no access issues with the site. SHouldn't that be "www-data"? |
| 21:47.04 | oxek | modifying /etc/default/console-setup CHARMAP works here, just verified by running setupcon afterwards and switching to the linux console |
| 21:47.05 | cws | KNERD: its actually best if the content of the site is not owned by www-data, except for the parts that need to be writable. |
| 21:47.05 | darsie | Is it ok to upgrade to bullseye from xorg? |
| 21:47.35 | oxek | darsie: really a question for #debian-next on irc.oftc.net |
| 21:47.40 | darsie | k |
| 21:48.57 | KNERD | cws: oh okay. thanks. I need to have a non root user to have writable access to a folder. I guess I need to change that to www-data and make that user part of the www-data group |
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| 21:50.22 | EdePopede | oxek: locales= is one of the options already present in the localized entries |
| 21:50.25 | ratrace | KNERD: writable by what? apache or something like php? |
| 21:50.50 | ratrace | *php-fpm |
| 21:51.35 | KNERD | ratrace: by ftp |
| 21:52.00 | jhutchins | oxek: I would say that you get less OT in the oftc channel, but less traffic in general. |
| 21:52.02 | KNERD | I am messing around with WordPress and they want you to upload modules via FTP |
| 21:52.16 | jhutchins | This one can get pretty chatty/ranty if it's quiet for a while. |
| 21:53.00 | cws | Yeah, wordpress is a common one that requires write access to certain directories. |
| 21:53.05 | oxek | jhutchins: I think I prefer this one then, I sometimes learn interesting/useful things, even from rants |
| 21:53.23 | ratrace | KNERD: so that doesn't need to be owned by www-data. in fact it's better if it's not. if at all possible you want WP's PHP files owned by something like root, executed by a dedicated user for fpm, that's separate from www-data |
| 21:53.54 | oxek | I don't think I'd be a debian user if I had not been in #debian on freenode |
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| 21:54.00 | ratrace | KNERD: WP also has a cli tool you can use for upgrades. |
| 21:55.48 | KNERD | ratrace: but I need to have the user have write access to that web root directory. I don't know of any other way than by making it a part of a group so it can install the module by FTO |
| 21:56.19 | KNERD | I am trying to get a module installed and it wants FTP |
| 21:56.37 | KNERD | unless the cli allows for module install from it |
| 21:57.13 | ratrace | the cli tool allows all administration be done, module installation, upgrades |
| 21:57.42 | ratrace | that way you can separate running user from PHP files owner, which increases security a LOT. most intrusion vectors I've seen with WP was modification of own PHP files |
| 21:58.02 | KNERD | but to get the WP installed |
| 21:58.05 | ratrace | then you designate specific directories where WP may write content/cache to, but still not be able to modify its PHP files |
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| 21:58.31 | ratrace | HOWEVER ... if you require the WP Admin UI be used, then the runnin user must be able to modify its own PHP files, yes. that's the worst you can do with WP |
| 22:00.35 | KNERD | okay, let me look that CLI up |
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| 22:00.37 | KNERD | thanks |
| 22:00.54 | KNERD | This one, I assume? https://wp-cli.org/ |
| 22:00.55 | ratrace | KNERD: https://wp-cli.org/ |
| 22:00.57 | ratrace | ya |
| 22:01.02 | dead | I have disabled apparmor to test a printing issue but I'm still seeing lines saying audit DENIED on printing...and it doesn't reference apparmor? |
| 22:01.10 | dead | so what else could be doing this? I don't seem to have selinux either |
| 22:01.21 | ratrace | dead: pastebin the actual line please |
| 22:02.21 | dead | https://pastebin.com/kgkzEkvg |
| 22:02.37 | dead | thsi is with apparmor.service not running |
| 22:02.55 | ratrace | dead: it's apparmor alright. why do you think it doesn't reference apparmor? appamor="DENIED" |
| 22:03.14 | dead | ok then how would i diable apparmor? |
| 22:03.17 | dead | disable* |
| 22:03.42 | ratrace | dead: you can set the profile in complain mode, aa-complain /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.cupsd I believe, not sure check teh actual filename in apparmor.d |
| 22:04.18 | ratrace | dead: then the next thing to do is file a bug report on cupsd apparmor profile. now .... cupds AA profile isn't installed by default, so consider if you really want it in this state, or are willing to fix it yourself for yourself |
| 22:04.26 | dead | hmm i dont even have the aa-complain command |
| 22:04.31 | dead | i have aa-exec/aa-enabled etc.. |
| 22:04.56 | ratrace | install apparmor-utils package |
| 22:05.04 | ratrace | dead: how is this even possible .... this is not default on debian. |
| 22:05.32 | dead | probably an old profile i setup on a previous version or something |
| 22:05.58 | ratrace | dead: oh wait..... cups-daemon itself installs the AA profile |
| 22:06.18 | ratrace | right, right, packages do that themselves now, it's not just apparmor-profiles any more |
| 22:08.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1065] by debhelper |
| 22:08.02 | ratrace | dead: best thing would be to file a bug report against cups-daemon package, state that the default AA profile is missing read rights on /etc/magic |
| 22:08.07 | dead | well that seemed to have remove the audit lines now but still failing to print damn it lol :/ |
| 22:08.20 | dead | ok thank you |
| 22:08.29 | ratrace | meanwhile you can set the profile in complain mode, or outright disable it with aa-disable /etc/apparmor.d/usr.sbin.cupsd |
| 22:08.41 | ratrace | disabling might be better as that won't produce a megaton of log entries |
| 22:08.50 | dead | good to know, i'm used to selinux not this new apparmor shit.. |
| 22:09.03 | ratrace | dead: same shit, different paradigm :) |
| 22:09.23 | dead | cool well thanks for the help, have a good one! |
| 22:09.27 | *** part/#debian dead (~dead@unaffiliated/dead) |
| 22:09.29 | ratrace | !next |
| 22:09.30 | dpkg | Another happy customer leaves the building. |
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| 22:17.08 | EdePopede | is it possible to check root's history file while not logged in? i was thinking of a 2nd PID 0 account. but hm, maybe i just could set another HISTFILE in the start script so the original one doesn't get touched. |
| 22:18.00 | EdePopede | s/PID/UID/ |
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| 22:20.20 | phogg | EdePopede: shell history? just read ~root/.bash_history (if you have permission) |
| 22:21.03 | EdePopede | phogg: that's the point. i have to be logged in as root, but i want to check how it looks after i've been logged out. |
| 22:22.16 | phogg | EdePopede: how it would look? like, before you log out? |
| 22:22.21 | EdePopede | right now on the freshly started live system it is still empty, the running shell holds the commands i used to prepare my environment. and i'm not sure if it would be a good idea to write it now or better wait until logoff. |
| 22:22.36 | EdePopede | no, after. |
| 22:23.13 | EdePopede | i check everything, file and process copy look both fine, when i login again it is messed. doubled entries, which should not be there. |
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| 22:23.39 | EdePopede | and i just have to know when this happens. |
| 22:23.43 | phogg | EdePopede: so, like I said, just read that file |
| 22:23.57 | EdePopede | readable only by root |
| 22:24.09 | oxek | EdePopede: `sudo cat /root/.bash_history` |
| 22:24.10 | phogg | you can change that if you want, especially if it's temporary |
| 22:24.16 | EdePopede | works for every other account with root, but not with root :) |
| 22:24.20 | phogg | you can also log in with a different shell that doesn't read or write it |
| 22:24.21 | EdePopede | err *for* root |
| 22:24.39 | phogg | oxek: ~root is technically more correct |
| 22:24.50 | EdePopede | hm i could use zsh or whatever i have here, good idea |
| 22:24.57 | oxek | phogg: true, but does every shell work that way? |
| 22:25.06 | phogg | oxek: POSIX standard |
| 22:25.15 | oxek | so probably fish doesn't :) |
| 22:25.23 | phogg | who uses fish? |
| 22:25.33 | oxek | japanese? |
| 22:25.41 | cws | fish is a fairly popular shell. |
| 22:26.54 | oxek | anyone know the popularity rating of interactive shells? Maybe bash 1st, zsh 2nd, fish 3rd? |
| 22:27.11 | phogg | Best is sobjective. |
| 22:27.23 | phogg | popularity isn't a great measure of it |
| 22:27.39 | oxek | that's why I didn't mention the word 'best' |
| 22:27.52 | cws | oxek: those three, in some sort of order. |
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| 22:28.16 | oxek | cws: that's what I would have guessed, but I don't know much about it |
| 22:28.19 | phogg | oxek: Oh, okay. Bash is definitely first, though. I think zsh may be second, after that it's hard to know. |
| 22:28.33 | phogg | ksh will be in there somewhere, fish might even approach 1% |
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| 22:28.50 | phogg | But I'm betting more people still use tcsh |
| 22:29.18 | phogg | oxek: you could try the Debian popcon for the relevant packages |
| 22:29.24 | oxek | I was just gonna say popcon |
| 22:29.24 | phogg | it's not a good metric, but it is *a* metric |
| 22:29.49 | phogg | unlike the next best alternative, which is gut instinct, it has to be worth something |
| 22:30.00 | phogg | Does Ubuntu run a popcon? |
| 22:30.01 | cws | phogg: popcon won't be a good metric, bash is preinstalled. |
| 22:30.28 | phogg | cws: even so I think that's going to still give it a fair assessment of popularity |
| 22:30.42 | EdePopede | "my precious 100k+ line history" ... 100k lines of bash history? i reset it often when it reaches some hundred lines :o |
| 22:30.48 | cws | That literally means that it can't give a fair assessment of popularity. |
| 22:30.55 | oxek | cws: I think it's safe to assume bash is most popular because it's default. popcon says tcsh is more popular than fish |
| 22:31.19 | coc0nut | fish is a fairly popular shell <- hillarious line! :) |
| 22:31.21 | phogg | EdePopede: I keep 10k lines just so that I never have to worry about anything I can remember having aged out. Entries at the top are years old! |
| 22:31.32 | phogg | oxek: I definitely believe that |
| 22:31.34 | cws | coc0nut: It's a factual statement. |
| 22:31.57 | phogg | fish has gained some recent notoriety, but being hip is not the same as being popular |
| 22:32.52 | cws | Alright, this is getting tired. I'm not here to microscopically subdivide hairs. fish is a moderately popular shell and is one of the top three in terms of "popularity" along with zsh and bash. |
| 22:32.57 | EdePopede | phogg: how do you even use it? i hate this single line interface while scrolling through it, even in mc i often open the history box if the command i want doesn't appear during the first few iterations. |
| 22:33.04 | cws | End. I'm moving on. |
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| 22:34.11 | coc0nut | does fish include bash and zsh and so on? |
| 22:34.45 | oxek | coc0nut: that question does not make sense to me |
| 22:34.49 | phogg | EdePopede: C-r and type |
| 22:35.09 | oxek | with FZF for fulltext search in history |
| 22:35.36 | EdePopede | phogg, that's what i do. but with a few hundred lines it's no fun anymore. and C-s to return when i was too fast again also doesn't work. |
| 22:36.07 | oxek | EdePopede: really check out FZF, it makes C-r so much better |
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| 22:36.43 | phogg | EdePopede: that's because C-s is bound to something at the terminal level |
| 22:37.04 | oxek | C-s C-q are flow control in readline |
| 22:37.25 | phogg | EdePopede: stty -ixon; then C-s will do what you want. Or rebind forward search |
| 22:37.32 | EdePopede | i know, but this doesn't make it work ;) |
| 22:37.43 | EdePopede | ah i should do it |
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| 22:39.09 | oxek | or use zsh, which doesn't use readline and you can disable flow control (C-s C-q) in the zshrc file |
| 22:39.25 | phogg | EdePopede: for things very old I mostly just history | grep -E ... |
| 22:42.09 | alex11 | what a fishy conversation |
| 22:44.09 | ratrace | alex11: badum-tss! |
| 22:44.34 | unborn | ,v flameshot |
| 22:44.35 | judd | Package: flameshot on amd64 -- stretch-backports: 0.6.0-11~bpo9+1; buster: 0.6.0-11; buster-backports: 0.8.5-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 0.9.0+ds1-1; sid: 0.9.0+ds1-1 |
| 22:48.18 | oxek | +1 for flameshot |
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| 23:10.52 | alex11 | are there quick and easy ways to check whether my /home permissions are mostly correct |
| 23:11.40 | alex11 | i had a snafu a while ago but i think i managed to set my directories to 755 and files to 644 (or is it the other way around, i forget what it's supposed to be) and i just wonder if i can check for exceptions |
| 23:11.59 | alex11 | yeah dirs 755 files 644 pretty sure |
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| 23:16.52 | alex11 | i guess i can do a big ol' recursive search and just skim |
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| 23:18.59 | alex11 | ignore me |
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