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| 00:48.50 | queip | how to disable a service from ever starting up? |
| 00:49.08 | sney | systemctl mask |
| 00:49.11 | sney | or uninstall it |
| 00:49.22 | sney | 0pointer.de/blog/projects/three-levels-of-off |
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| 01:01.15 | oxek | need a 4th level |
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| 01:19.59 | ld | hi, what's the command to download the backports kernel as a .dpkg |
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| 01:20.13 | ld | and all the deps |
| 01:20.32 | ld | (to get a system running i need a newer kernel than what was on livecd, it currently has no network) |
| 01:25.38 | oxek | the kernel shouldn't have any deps |
| 01:26.09 | oxek | `apt install -t buster-backports linux-image-amd64` if you're on a amd64 architecture |
| 01:26.24 | oxek | oh, as a .deb? |
| 01:26.27 | sney | and to download for moving to another system, use the -d option |
| 01:26.28 | oxek | then `apt download ...` |
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| 03:44.03 | ASDX | was discussing upgrades recently here. multiple people mentioned using "apt upgrade" over the other options. was that because I was talking about addressing security updates or is that the most common upgrade command?? i see that it only upgrades currently-installed packages which i think is safer but are you like to be upgraded to a point release with that command (guessing it WILL change that if it upgrades packages |
| 03:44.03 | ASDX | including the package that sets that version, right?)? "apt dis-upgrade" and "apt full-upgrade" look to have more risk as they may install new packages one may not need (reading good post here: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/536620) |
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| 04:02.10 | jmcnaught | ASDX: have you read the man pages for those commands? "apt upgrade" can install new packages too. If a package is updated to require a new package, then you probably need that package so I wouldn't worry that much. Ultimately you need to trust your distro or why use it? |
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| 04:03.10 | ASDX | jmcnaught: i trust the distro, just not me, so trying to find the best command to use consistently for upgrades (i've come from RHEL/CentOS) |
| 04:03.43 | sney | the command you run by default should be apt upgrade. |
| 04:04.02 | sney | if anything gets stuck or looks weird, you can try with full-upgrade. don't use -y, always read apt's list of packages to change, yadda yadda |
| 04:04.17 | ASDX | sney: cool, noted |
| 04:04.22 | sney | (full-upgrade and dist-upgrade are aliases, they do the same thing) |
| 04:16.10 | Rodon | how to do fsck if system unable to boot giving filesystem error . i have to fix this by running fsck /dev/sda. .. can i do that without live image? i tried grub commands ..but didnt find initramfs/fsck ..to start.. |
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| 04:22.41 | mesaboogie | Rodon: yes, live image. |
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| 04:26.34 | Rodon | it appears technically unbelievable that debian cant fsck while booting.. without a liveimage ! while other distros can |
| 04:32.11 | oxek | Rodon: which distro can run fsck on a partition that it's booting from? |
| 04:35.53 | Rodon | ubuntu has recovery mode giving fsck option..in gui if i am correct |
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| 04:37.56 | somiaj | Can't you fsck if you remount / as read-only? |
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| 04:38.15 | Rodon | yeah.exactly thats my point.. |
| 04:38.22 | Rodon | https://www.tecmint.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Select-fsck-Utility.png |
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| 04:38.43 | somiaj | though fsck is often ran automatically at boot, so maybe you have more damage than that. I personally like live images just find it easier to deal with issues while not running from the filesystem. |
| 04:38.45 | Rodon | https://www.tecmint.com/fsck-repair-file-system-errors-in-linux/ |
| 04:39.30 | somiaj | but you could boot into recovery mode, or boot into /bin/bash as your init process, remount root as read-only |
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| 04:39.50 | Rodon | ys.. |
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| 04:43.30 | oxek | the moment you mount a broken filesystem you can do horrible damage |
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| 04:48.43 | somiaj | seems you can add a fsck.mode=force or fsck.repair=yes as a boot parameter (wonder if this uses initrd), but as mentioned is probably safest to use a live system |
| 04:49.08 | Rodon | actually it happened this way... last week i fixed my friends machine (buster) using a live kalilinux cd (only that was available)..and it led me to reboot with initramfs prompt where i fsck /dev/sda3 and system got repaired in a minute ..!! so now i think whether that cant be that possible if i dont have any live image.. |
| 04:51.22 | Rodon | somiaj: thanks..for clue..i would check that..!! |
| 04:51.31 | somiaj | yea initramfs has fsck in it (at least here), so maybe that boot parameter will run fsck before mounting there are also ways to force yourself into the initramfs debushell |
| 04:51.37 | somiaj | https://wiki.debian.org/InitramfsDebug |
| 04:53.24 | Rodon | ð |
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| 05:25.20 | ASDX | impressed that the services that were running and upgraded are restarted during the "apt upgrade". probably best practice to reboot the server still (even if var/run/reboot-required is empty)? |
| 05:26.04 | ASDX | oh, woops, the /var/run/reboot-required file existing means a reboot is required |
| 05:26.53 | somiaj | outside of the kernel and systemd, rebooting the service should be fine. |
| 05:27.08 | somiaj | look at needs-restart |
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| 05:28.42 | ASDX | woah, the kernel has been updated as well without a reboot |
| 05:29.48 | ASDX | (or 'uname -a'/'uname -r' are at least showing the new version) |
| 05:32.15 | ASDX | woops again, there i go mistaking 2020 for 2021 again |
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| 05:49.27 | unixbsd | Rodon: that's the thing of systemd, this is why I use openrc for better control of the machine. + networking works fine |
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| 05:51.08 | Rodon | unixbsd: so default bullseye comes with an option of choosing init? |
| 05:52.20 | Rodon | for systemD there had lots of debate in debian earlier ..dont know what their stand for future.. |
| 05:53.06 | alkisg | systemd doesn't automatically restart services. Debian postinsts do that. If a newer openssh-server package fixes security issues, and can restart the service without disrupting existing connections, of course it's a good thing to restart it then... |
| 05:53.13 | unixbsd | Rodon: well, debian and linux is tightly bound to corporations, the more control the better, so systemd and wayland will stay for sure. |
| 05:53.22 | Rodon | devuan already stands a protest-distro. lots of systemd haters i see .. |
| 05:53.29 | unixbsd | Rodon: Even now, Microsoft starts activities to take over more and more. |
| 05:53.47 | unixbsd | Rodon: systemd is a junk.... my advise : use netbsd . |
| 05:53.56 | somiaj | unixbsd: please take it elsewhere |
| 05:54.11 | somiaj | ASDX: there are ways to reload a kernel without restarting, though I'm unsure on the details. |
| 05:54.28 | unixbsd | Rodon: https://gitlab.com/openbsd98324/netbsd-live <-- try my live distributions... |
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| 05:56.51 | Rodon | unixbsd: why you didnt you try debian? you can do anything here you want ... changing distro is not a sane thing.. |
| 05:56.53 | somiaj | Rodon: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 -- by default debian will install systemd. There are ways to use other init systems and alternatives can be explored, but support may varry. |
| 05:57.58 | unixbsd | it is easy to remove systemd and to put openrc on debian, it needs then to install packages one by one, by hand. |
| 05:59.29 | unixbsd | like surgery... actually. ;) |
| 05:59.46 | Rodon | yss.. i know that ... you can do any experiment within debian .. including init systems.. |
| 05:59.57 | oxek | there's a new service manager being created anyway, that might take over systemd's default place |
| 06:00.19 | unixbsd | Rodon: I used openrc and it works fine. it looks to me quite fast, faster for sure. |
| 06:00.33 | oxek | https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html |
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| 06:04.31 | jim | somiaj, jelly, solved the mystery of the uname that returned only x86_64, turned out the OP had put a script to temporarily replace uname, for some debugging purpose |
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| 06:04.53 | oxek | jim: that's straight out evil |
| 06:05.07 | somiaj | jim: hence why my suggestion of using a full path can help debug, but in the future you should send people here, support through a middle man is difficult. |
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| 06:06.15 | oxek | full path might not help, I've seen people do `mv /usr/bin/someexecutable{,.old}` and put something else in its place |
| 06:06.37 | oxek | and it's a very evil thing to do |
| 06:06.49 | alkisg | does `debsums -s` to check against that, in some cases... |
| 06:07.48 | somiaj | oxek: ugg, those people need to understand $PATH. |
| 06:08.10 | somiaj | though I sometimes forget I put custom scripts in ~/bin/, hence I have to remind myself to use which or try full paths from time to time. |
| 06:08.15 | somiaj | I don't do it that often though. |
| 06:08.24 | alkisg | Sometimes it's necessary, as there are programs that run other programs using a hardcoded path, /usr/bin/xxx; dpkg-divert is better than mv in that case |
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| 06:08.48 | somiaj | alkisg: ahh yea, I've not runinto that case. |
| 06:08.54 | oxek | exactly, it was to work around a hardcoded path in some other tool |
| 06:09.23 | oxek | that's why it irks me when I see suggestions to use full paths in scripts and other tools |
| 06:10.42 | unixbsd | there is ~/bin/ /usr/local/bin and /usr/bin mostly. bash will save the env at start. ksh is bit lighter for that, and more comfortable for use executable. |
| 06:11.09 | oxek | there is also . |
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| 06:11.31 | oxek | bash in fact has it in the default path, but debian patches it out |
| 06:12.41 | somiaj | though the default .profile will add either ~/bin or ~/.local/bin if they exist. |
| 06:12.42 | b1ack0p | morning |
| 06:13.01 | b1ack0p | why i see labels and all fonts blury and bold on my debian/xfce? |
| 06:13.35 | oxek | hmm, actually debian does not patch it out |
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| 06:13.37 | oxek | env -i -- bash --norc --noprofile -c 'echo $PATH' |
| 06:14.17 | somiaj | oxek: i don't see ~/bin in that |
| 06:14.34 | oxek | I meant that it has :. in it at the end |
| 06:14.44 | oxek | which is the "dangerous" one |
| 06:15.49 | oxek | b1ack0p: bad display resolution? |
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| 06:18.32 | b1ack0p | oxek: it is set to same res with the monitor |
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| 06:18.38 | c4pt00 | https://imgur.com/gallery/3nzIPy6 |
| 06:18.53 | b1ack0p | or not :p |
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| 06:19.18 | b1ack0p | oxek: you were right sorry |
| 06:19.22 | b1ack0p | i thought it was same res |
| 06:19.29 | b1ack0p | i dont know how it is changed |
| 06:19.44 | b1ack0p | probably it was set while connected to external monitor |
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| 06:27.02 | jim | don't click c4pt00's link |
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| 07:09.33 | oxek | obviously |
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| 07:22.25 | jelly | jim, did you report it to imgur maybe? |
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| 07:24.13 | *** mode/#debian [-o somiaj] by somiaj |
| 07:24.40 | jelly | phew, it's not anything disgusting or illegal, or disgustingly illegal, so no grounds to have it removed, just spam |
| 07:24.56 | oxek | jelly: you're brave for clicking that |
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| 07:25.44 | jelly | oxek, usually it's something with shock value, and imgur removes those quickly... IF reported |
| 07:25.46 | somiaj | though they have been droping links in here for the last few days |
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| 07:26.53 | jelly | ban them by $a:c4pt00 as well, then |
| 07:27.07 | jelly | nickserv account |
| 07:27.21 | Wulf | Good Morning! Where can I find the minimal kernel version required for debian 9,10,11? I've got an OpenVZ (?) server where I cannot upgrade the kernel. |
| 07:27.43 | jelly | Wulf, usually this is documented somewhere in the release notes |
| 07:27.57 | jelly | for each release, separately |
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| 07:30.35 | Wulf | jelly: can't find it there |
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| 07:33.28 | jelly | Wulf, Debian 9: can't find it either; 10: kernel 3.2 for libc6 https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#glibc-and-linux; 11: release notes not ready yet for bullseye |
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| 07:37.16 | jim | jelly, oh, the troll? no I haven't |
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| 07:49.23 | Wulf | jelly: thanks! |
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| 08:01.39 | jelly | Wulf, |
| 08:02.21 | jelly | oops. Anyhow, you'll have some other kernel requirements for systemd as well, starting from Debian 8 so it's probably documented there |
| 08:02.51 | jelly | if you already have Debian 8 running in that environment you're probably safe |
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| 08:06.00 | Wulf | jelly: there is no systemd running, the whole init systems is fscked up on that machine. |
| 08:06.15 | Wulf | so maybe I'd get into trouble if I try to update |
| 08:10.26 | ratrace | Wulf: if that's OpenVZ ... did I miss something here? you're not running your own kernel. Or do you intend to run OpenVZ host? |
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| 08:21.07 | Wulf | ratrace: no, it's only a guest, so it's not my own kernel. |
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| 08:22.19 | Wulf | It originally had Debian 4, already survived a few updates :) |
| 08:22.24 | ratrace | Wulf: so what are you really trying to do there? |
| 08:22.37 | Wulf | ratrace: well, upgrade everything but the kernel. |
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| 08:22.59 | ratrace | Wulf: why? the kernel package is not used in your OpenVZ instance |
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| 08:24.04 | Wulf | ratrace: I'm aware of this. That's why I asked. |
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| 08:24.50 | ratrace | Wulf: but you asked about running a minimal kernel. If that's OpenVZ guest, your kernel package doesn't matter. It's not used. It's not run. |
| 08:25.16 | ratrace | That's why I don't understand what you want to achieve here, as it doesn't matter what your kernel package is, inside the guest |
| 08:25.31 | Wulf | ratrace: but there is a kernel version (3.10.0) running. And I wanted to know the minimal required kernel to run debian 9 or 10. Debian 10 needs 3.2, so it should be fine. |
| 08:26.30 | ratrace | Wulf: I see. Are you sure about 3.2? As jelly suggested, systemd is very finnicky about the underlaying kernel and its features |
| 08:26.59 | Wulf | ratrace: there's no systemd running |
| 08:27.05 | ratrace | besides, regardless of the kernel, if you have the possibility I'd very much advise you to migrate away from OpenVZ tech |
| 08:27.26 | Wulf | ratrace: I definitely should... |
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| 08:28.09 | ratrace | If you're looking for "cheap", there's "cheap" KVM hosts. if you're looking for containerized "virtualization" specifically, I don't know of any but there could be LXC/LXD based hosters |
| 08:28.29 | ratrace | but you'd be in a very similar pickle as with OpenVZ, so if you can, look out for KVM hosts |
| 08:30.17 | Wulf | I just don't find the time to migrate away the services that are running on that server |
| 08:32.48 | ratrace | Wulf: btw, which init system are you using there? openrc? |
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| 08:34.02 | Wulf | ratrace: there's sysv-rc installed. But the init system is just strange+broken. |
| 08:34.12 | Wulf | one more reason to migrate away... |
| 08:40.17 | jelly | Wulf, if there's anything custom looking about the init system, be very very careful doing any release upgrades |
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| 08:53.53 | Deano59 | I'm not in the "know" about new Debian release. but I see we're at 10.9 - when is 11 coming? |
| 08:55.25 | Dakaedr | I don't know the release date but july or august wouldn't be far fetched ? |
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| 08:56.13 | Deano59 | thanks, not that long then. :) |
| 08:59.59 | ratrace | !wbbr |
| 09:00.10 | Deano59 | ? |
| 09:00.30 | ratrace | !wwbr |
| 09:00.30 | dpkg | Now Debian "Bullseye" is the current testing branch as of 2019-07-06 and it will be released "when it's ready." |
| 09:00.32 | ratrace | (sigh) |
| 09:00.50 | Deano59 | thanks. |
| 09:01.42 | Deano59 | so basically there's no timeframe like ubuntu? |
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| 09:02.19 | Deano59 | I can wait. :) |
| 09:02.42 | Dakaedr | Yes but it is usually about 2 years since the last few release |
| 09:02.51 | Deano59 | nice! |
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| 09:06.55 | ratrace | ubuntu has a specific release date. debian does not. debian has "roughly" when it starts freezing (so far it's been cca 2 years between releases), and then it releases when the release critical bugs drop to zero |
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| 09:11.07 | Deano59 | nice, thanks for the info. :) |
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| 09:22.13 | Wulf | Deano59: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history#Release_table Releases happen every 2 years + some months. Take your own guess. Perhaps watch https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBullseye for news :) |
| 09:22.34 | Deano59 | :) |
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| 09:24.09 | Deano59 | 5.10 kernel... nice. |
| 09:24.18 | Deano59 | that's LTS, right? |
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| 09:25.46 | Wulf | Deano59: looks like it: https://www.kernel.org/ |
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| 09:26.26 | Deano59 | (: |
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| 09:28.46 | TimTahler | Hi..., i am using old Debian (Squeeze) is there a way other than upgrading in order to use firefox 77 ? or maybe an alternative browser that would display websites properly ... |
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| 09:31.24 | jelly | TimTahler, you could try using mozilla's tarball for linux |
| 09:31.36 | jelly | ,v firefox-esr |
| 09:31.38 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 78.8.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-proposed-updates: 78.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 78.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: |
| 09:31.39 | judd | 78.10.0esr-1; sid: 78.10.0esr-1 |
| 09:32.41 | jelly | TimTahler, but you'd need to upgrade the whole system couple times to get up to date with debian's packaging of firefox-esr. Debian 6->7, then 7->8, 8->9, 9->10 |
| 09:33.23 | jelly | squeeze is Debian 6 |
| 09:37.30 | TimTahler | so nothing for squeeze ? |
| 09:38.49 | jelly | TimTahler, you could try using mozilla's tarball for linux # missed this? |
| 09:39.48 | jelly | TimTahler, what does "dpkg --print-architecture" say on your system |
| 09:39.50 | unixbsd | hello |
| 09:40.13 | unixbsd | do you know a font ttf that has Symbols for XPAINT ? I need symbols in xpaint |
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| 09:46.29 | TimTahler | unixbsd: this could be lost knowledge..., a font TTF, that has symbols for XPAINT...., maybe we are to old-school... |
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| 09:58.57 | TimTahler | We need some spirit ..., more than we need technological development...., but people like to be the tip of the ice-berg..., always on the very edge of development..., and it was written that "Debian Gnu/Linux" was not the distribution of choice if someone would like to use the latest technology in computation... i think it was "DistroWatch" ..., is there a Debian Core of people that still using old old software.., and especially like |
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| 10:01.33 | topoi_ | How does dpkg (or frontends) check and know if files in /etc have been modified and should not be overwritten? |
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| 10:05.13 | TheBigK | im confused why someone would stay with a debian that doesnt get any updates anymore and still wanting to browse the internet.. sounds dangerous to me... |
| 10:05.43 | TheBigK | for an airgap computer ... i could understand... but for something connected to the internet... sounds scary |
| 10:06.07 | TimTahler | TheBigK is pulling some triggers.... |
| 10:07.39 | TheBigK | nah... i just want to understand whats the rational behind it.. if its something specific... i rly wanna understand... |
| 10:08.45 | TimTahler | TheBigK has a message... |
| 10:10.12 | alkisg | topoi_: it's complicated, there are md5sums but they're not enough, so ucf was introduced... check https://wiki.debian.org/ConfigPackages for starters |
| 10:10.49 | topoi_ | thanks, alkisg. : ) |
| 10:10.55 | alkisg | np |
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| 10:11.15 | TimTahler | topoi_ has a message.. |
| 10:11.29 | Deano59 | TimTahler: ? |
| 10:12.59 | Deano59 | can you not PM TimTahler, thanks. |
| 10:13.02 | jelly | * TimTahler TheBigK has a message... # hey TimTahler, something in your irc client seems to be doing /me actions, not sure if it's automatic or you're doing it intentionally |
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| 10:13.35 | TimTahler | ^ |
| 10:13.35 | Deano59 | jelly: he borked. |
| 10:13.54 | jelly | either way try not to highlight people's nicknames unless you have a full thought to convey to them |
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| 10:14.06 | Deano59 | and don't PM without asking, too. |
| 10:14.08 | jelly | ah. Happens |
| 10:15.54 | Deano59 | again, can you not PM me TimTahler. thanks. |
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| 10:20.25 | ratrace | set user mode +g . no moar PMs without asking. |
| 10:20.47 | Deano59 | idk how to do that. |
| 10:21.09 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:21.18 | Deano59 | oh, thanks! |
| 10:21.22 | ratrace | then set it in your client config for permanence |
| 10:21.40 | ratrace | try to PM me and you'll see how that works |
| 10:21.43 | jelly | /quote help umode |
| 10:22.13 | jelly | /msg ratrace you're a continuing source of inspiration |
| 10:22.18 | Deano59 | nice, how do I set it with hexchat ratrace ? |
| 10:22.35 | ratrace | what's "hexchat"? *snickers* *pats irssi* |
| 10:22.38 | Deano59 | I done mode +g |
| 10:22.53 | ratrace | jelly: ikr! |
| 10:23.29 | Deano59 | ratrace: try and pm me? |
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| 11:44.27 | yann1 | Hi all |
| 11:44.46 | yann1 | I installed a snap package |
| 11:44.57 | yann1 | and it doesn't launch ? |
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| 11:48.29 | yann1 | none of the howtos I found on the net talks about such problems |
| 11:48.57 | yann1 | with snap list it appears disabled |
| 11:49.04 | yann1 | but I can't find how to enable it |
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| 11:51.36 | yann1 | and when I search for "snap disable" I get results about disabled people... |
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| 11:54.12 | kats99 | I have Slackware as guest os in Virtualbox and for kernel 4.4.14 I was able to install the modules. Now I compiled 5.10.34 and I ran VBoxLinuxAdditions but it says modprobe vboxguest failed |
| 11:54.24 | TimTahler | yann1: i am noob, but did you try "file snap" , is the cpu arch right ? |
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| 11:55.17 | TimTahler | i had programs fail to start because of wrong arch... |
| 11:58.13 | TimTahler | where could i possibly find users old old Debian Distros that still use kernel 2.X ? |
| 11:58.28 | TimTahler | where could i possibly find users using old old Debian Distros that still use kernel 2.X ? |
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| 12:00.03 | petn-randall | TimTahler: And what would you do with those users? |
| 12:01.15 | petn-randall | !ask |
| 12:01.15 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ See <smart questions><errors>. |
| 12:02.49 | ratrace | yann1: specific snaps are not supported here. you'll have to talk to their vendor. |
| 12:04.05 | jelly | petn-randall, I hope he'd send cake. |
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| 12:05.15 | TimTahler | petn-randall: has a spirit ..., of national supremecy ? because he uses latest debian ? |
| 12:05.54 | jelly | TimTahler, keep you comments in here to tech support please, and try not to annoy the ops |
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| 12:07.28 | jelly | TimTahler, so if you have a question about making stuff work on some horribly old Debian, ask it. If it's the same question you initially had, about running a recent Firefox build on squeeze, you got some answers for that and you haven't answered a technical question. |
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| 12:07.50 | jelly | TimTahler, I asked what "dpkg --print-architecture" said on your squeeze installation |
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| 12:36.22 | inbe4 | Hello! So, I havepretty new hardware, which requirs recent Mesa, and Debian stable does not have that, not even through backports. Is it safe to upgrade to Bullseye now? Are there any disadvantages? |
| 12:37.39 | ratrace | inbe4: it's still testing, with release critical bugs. that said, it's soft-frozen, which means bugfix mode with likely no further breaking changes |
| 12:37.44 | ratrace | also: |
| 12:37.47 | ratrace | !debian-next |
| 12:37.47 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
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| 12:39.26 | inbe4 | ratrace: Okay, thanks. Trying to wrap my head around how Debian releases work :) |
| 12:40.22 | sigint | inbe4, I'm in the same boat regarding hardware. I've been daily driving Bullseye since december without any problem. |
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| 12:41.34 | sappheiros | Does Debian also have issues like these? as frequently? https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212335 |
| 12:41.51 | jelly | inbe4, if you have new hardware you might as well go install bullseye now and see how it works. If you have an old installation with buster, sure, a release upgrade is an option |
| 12:42.15 | inbe4 | sigint: Cool! I read that might be some issues with security updates in testing (That they hit testing very late) Don't remember where i read it though |
| 12:42.26 | jelly | dpkg, tell sappheiros about tracker of doom |
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| 12:43.30 | inbe4 | jelly: I run Ubuntu now, but I really want to go with Debian instead. So I should be fine with bullseye? I see that there are a relese candidate for the installer, nice! |
| 12:43.48 | jelly | sappheiros, or are you asking about for the webkit component in specific? |
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| 12:45.51 | ratrace | inbe4: the "issues" are basically that testing does not receive security backports like Stable. that means, a vulnerability in Testing will get fixed by virtue of that entire package getting an upgraded version from sid, which can be days, weeks or maybe even months after the fact. |
| 12:47.23 | inbe4 | ratrace: Yes that makes sense. I will give Bullseye a go. When Bullseye becomes stable, I guess i don't have to do anything? |
| 12:47.36 | inbe4 | My testing-install will suddenly be stable :D |
| 12:47.50 | jelly | correct |
| 12:48.08 | ratrace | inbe4: if you use proper release name, "bullseye" instead of "testing", in apt sources .. which you should anyway .. then yes, it'll transparently just "become" stable as Bullseye transitions from testing to stable |
| 12:48.12 | jelly | bullseye will be bullseye |
| 12:49.40 | inbe4 | ratrace: Yes, the sources says bullseye main nonfree ... etc |
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| 12:50.55 | sappheiros | jelly: basically seems absurd to have so many updates and so many security flaws |
| 12:51.02 | sappheiros | so i was wondering if all major OS were like this |
| 12:51.05 | sappheiros | or all feature-rich OS |
| 12:51.22 | inbe4 | I like the fact that Debian is so flexible with that, if my hardware requires it, I can jump to the next release and then stay on it as it becomes stable |
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| 12:52.17 | ratrace | sappheiros: it's even worse in linux. |
| 12:53.57 | sappheiros | ._. you're joking right >_> |
| 12:54.15 | inbe4 | sappheiros: Its software, which always has security flaws. Linux is just really good att spotting them :D |
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| 12:54.48 | sappheiros | https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/status/release/stable D: ;_; |
| 12:54.55 | ratrace | sappheiros: I am not unfortunately. |
| 12:55.02 | sappheiros | nowhere is safe!!! (cries under mattress) |
| 12:55.38 | sappheiros | "sync_repl NULL pointer dereference in sync_create_state_control()" what does this even mean ...... |
| 12:56.05 | ratrace | "linux is good at spotting them" ... except when it's not. notable examples: heartbleed. and many of the kernel vulns that are found (many) years after the fact |
| 12:56.33 | ratrace | all software sucks. all software should be considered hostile and security built in layers around that fact. |
| 12:56.47 | sappheiros | oh my ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed lol who gets to the badass naming things like this? ... |
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| 12:57.02 | sappheiros | "i propose Skullcrusher." "nah, we're going with Heartbleed." "yeah that's way better" |
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| 12:57.37 | inbe4 | ratrace: As Greg kroah Hartman said: "Software barely works " |
| 12:57.45 | ratrace | yea |
| 12:59.07 | sappheiros | "Greg Kroah-Hartman is a major Linux kernel developer. As of April 2013 he is the Linux kernel maintainer for the -stable branch, the staging subsystem, USB, driver core, debugfs, kref, kobject, and the sysfs kernel subsystems, Userspace I/O, and TTY layer. [In his free time he enjoys hahaha what free time?!]" |
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| 13:00.37 | ratrace | GKH is also a politician and would gladly backport political patches into stable branches in total violation of stable backports policies, just to drive a political point. he's also an avid hater of zfs and will not hesitate to subvert it whenever possible. |
| 13:01.40 | sappheiros | o_o what |
| 13:02.14 | sappheiros | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS sounds good, what's wrong with it? |
| 13:02.23 | sappheiros | what do you mean by political patches? |
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| 13:02.45 | ratrace | it's not GPL licensed, even though it's DFSG compliant and open source by all definitions. it's just not "GPL" kind of "libre". |
| 13:03.04 | sappheiros | i don't see political stuff at http://www.kroah.com |
| 13:03.53 | ratrace | here, he sounds like a butthurt child who finally, after many years, even though he's grown up now, has a chance to stick it back to a ..... company that no longer exists: https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=154714516832389 |
| 13:04.21 | ratrace | sappheiros: by political I mean backports and code changes that serve NO functional purpose, except licensing "compliance" and politicking. |
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| 13:05.29 | ratrace | "their code to work properly" ...... lolno, Greg. It's "our" code. World's code. It's open, free for everyone to use within license terms that are not too different from GPL. I guess he simply fails to understand what open source means. |
| 13:06.05 | ratrace | (and that linux can only benefit, in any way imaginable, from supporting such a great filesystem) |
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| 13:07.53 | alkisg | GPL violations are violations even if done "for the good of the whole world"... https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2016/feb/25/zfs-and-linux/ |
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| 13:09.27 | ratrace | alkisg: except, no. it's one thing to not accept ZFS into the main tree because licensing issues, that's okay. Understood. but it is NOT okay for a prominent kernel dev to go out of his way to DISABLE a third party module, that's not part of the tree and does NOT in any way violate that tree's license |
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| 13:10.09 | alkisg | ratrace: I agree on that part, "out of his way to disable..." isn't really beneficial. They won't convince them that way. |
| 13:10.22 | ratrace | who the F is GKH and why does he think he has the right to tell me which code I will or will not compile along with the kernel on my machines; code that I do not distribute as GPL ONLY pertains to code distribution, NOT usage in the privacy of your own machine. |
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| 13:10.55 | sappheiros | ratrace: licensing matters for at least two reasons, right? 1) it's a social contract to maintain libertarian society; without them anarchy fosters selfishness. 2) to maintain survival against profit-oriented enterprises. Yes? |
| 13:11.07 | ratrace | "libertarian"? no. |
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| 13:11.55 | ratrace | and again .... ZFS is not violating any license. this is not about inclusion in the mainstream kernel. again, that part and licensing incompatibility is understood and accepted. |
| 13:13.17 | sappheiros | does Windows or macOS use this ZFS? |
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| 13:13.46 | ratrace | Linux and BSD. Windows and OSX either don't have any or have some experimental, broken support for ZFS |
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| 13:14.08 | ratrace | zfs is regularly packaged in debian. it is dfsg compliant. |
| 13:14.20 | sappheiros | this is confusing ... so it looks like Ubuntu is using it, contrary to some licensing, and they're not being sued because the people with money don't care? |
| 13:14.29 | ratrace | many Linux users use ZFS professionally. my company uses ZFS professionally. |
| 13:14.46 | sappheiros | so it's okay to use but it violates a license most don't care about? |
| 13:14.50 | ratrace | sappheiros: they're not being sued because it is not violating any licenses. |
| 13:15.08 | sappheiros | so you're saying https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2016/feb/25/zfs-and-linux/ was wrong when they published that? |
| 13:15.18 | ratrace | GPL and CDDL are incompatible and thus ZFS cannot, in the current licensing state, be included in the main kernel source code tree. |
| 13:15.54 | sappheiros | what's the incompatibility? "okay to modify and sell" vs "not okay to sell"? |
| 13:15.59 | ratrace | It __CAN__ be built against thekernel on any machine, and so far nobody found a legal reason why it couldn't even be distributed as a precompiled module .. as long as it does not mean distributing the kernel SOURCE with ZFS code embedded |
| 13:16.11 | ratrace | sappheiros: nothing to do with selling |
| 13:16.33 | sappheiros | lol ......... this kinda seems like ...... smart programmers arguing over trivial details |
| 13:17.18 | ratrace | GPL prevents additional constraints in clause 6 iirc. CDDL has some such additional constraints that I cannot name right now off the top of my head, but you can google for comparisons, there are many |
| 13:17.38 | jelly | sappheiros, Debian often _looks_ worse because all the security issues are public (except the embargoed ones) |
| 13:17.44 | sappheiros | this seems like trapping oneself within a conceptual framework in addition to the computer's mechanical framework |
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| 13:18.03 | sappheiros | jelly: what does it mean and why embargo security issues? |
| 13:18.04 | ratrace | the differences are literally political nuances as CDDL is very much within the spirit of "Libre" and "Open source" codes, whether you wanna follow RMS strict terminology or a more loose one |
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| 13:18.48 | sappheiros | ratrace: i don't know what you mean by 'political nuances'; to me 'political' means "controversial decisions affecting human society" ... |
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| 13:19.57 | jelly | sappheiros, when a security issue affects many different vendors, they need to coordinate the date when fixes are released to public. So maybe Microsoft can't release patches for a particular CVE until Debian fixes them. |
| 13:20.01 | ratrace | sappheiros: political as in pertaining to policies defined hitherto in respective licenses |
| 13:20.19 | jelly | until all vendors are ready, the issue is embargoed |
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| 13:20.52 | ratrace | unless you're OpenBSD. they don't care about embargoes and will happily release fixes sooner :) |
| 13:21.08 | jelly | and then noone tells them, next time |
| 13:21.22 | ratrace | sadly, that's the stance some big vendors are taking, yes. |
| 13:21.54 | sappheiros | lol jelly you mean the next time a security bug is found they just patch it locally rather than tell others and have to wait to patch it? |
| 13:22.26 | jelly | sappheiros, I mean the vendors usually play nice with the other kids, and do not do that |
| 13:22.28 | sappheiros | how would you respond to the criticism, "you get what you pay for, thus win/mac > linux"? |
| 13:22.34 | sappheiros | is that relevant for safety? |
| 13:23.21 | jelly | sappheiros, there's merit in the first part, but the "thus" is not correct |
| 13:23.40 | sappheiros | i'm thinking linux > mac/win because privacy. is that a sound argument? |
| 13:23.56 | jelly | no, that's all too simplistic |
| 13:24.02 | sappheiros | seems no, if one uses facebook or google or any website that tracks for advertising |
| 13:24.05 | sappheiros | mm |
| 13:24.41 | sappheiros | checks https://itsfoss.com/why-use-linux/ |
| 13:25.14 | sappheiros | they claim we should use linux because it's safe |
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| 13:26.12 | jelly | that's like coming to #debian and asking which distro is the best |
| 13:27.17 | jelly | what answer do you expect from an "It's FOSS" site, "use proprietary tools when it's worth, iOS is the best mobile OS for privacy"?? |
| 13:27.20 | jhutchins | None of this is Debian Support. |
| 13:27.34 | jhutchins | He just wants to argue. |
| 13:27.48 | sappheiros | jhutchins: *procrastinate, i suppose >_> and learn |
| 13:28.04 | jelly | we have a #debian-offtopic for non-support chat |
| 13:28.07 | jhutchins | #debian-offtopic |
| 13:29.36 | sappheiros | sorry, i didn't realize somehow this was a support channel. (was thinking "anything related to debian") |
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| 13:33.52 | kirk781 | The lengths Apple goes to lock people in their platform is quite much. They were planning to bring iMessage but relented because it could damage their user base |
| 13:36.06 | sappheiros | What do you mean 'bring iMessage'? |
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| 13:38.21 | kirk781 | sappheiros, They had plans to port iMessage to Android and other platforms but relented because it showed that iMessage's exclusivity to Apple only products served as a lock in and urged users to stay in their ecosystem. Porting iMessage will make it easier for users to switch which will hit their user share |
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| 13:41.22 | inbe4 | Hello from Bullseye! Thanks for answering my questions! :) |
| 13:42.47 | jelly | !win inbe4 |
| 13:42.47 | dpkg | Congratulations, inbe4! You have won second prize in a beauty contest! |
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| 13:43.14 | Druid | !win |
| 13:43.18 | Druid | :( |
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| 13:44.10 | ratrace | !win Druid |
| 13:44.10 | dpkg | Congratulations, Druid! You have won the time-life collection of vintage AOL CDs, a set of 120! |
| 13:44.18 | Druid | thank u |
| 13:44.31 | Druid | i won! |
| 13:44.39 | Druid | !win ratrace |
| 13:44.39 | dpkg | Congratulations, ratrace! You have won second prize in a beauty contest! |
| 13:44.43 | Druid | everyone a winner |
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| 13:46.11 | inbe4 | jelly: Yey!! second price, not to bad! |
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| 13:49.15 | TimTahler | Hmmm, i am trying to download different firefox versions.., and came across this... firefox-45.0b7.sdk.tar.bz2 (135MB) vs. firefox 45.0b7.tar.bz2 (49MB) ... any hints ? |
| 13:50.18 | jelly | TimTahler, why are you downloading horribly old versions of firefox |
| 13:50.30 | jelly | !goal |
| 13:50.30 | dpkg | Describe your goal, not what you think the solution is. |
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| 13:50.56 | jelly | TimTahler, and AGAIN, can you tell us what "dpkg --print-architecture" says on your machine |
| 13:51.07 | kirk781 | If you want old versions of Firefox for running older extensions, try Pale Moon |
| 13:51.41 | jelly | yeah no, palemoon is a crapshow security-wise |
| 13:52.04 | TimTahler | kirk781: thanks for your tip, i gonna use my phone Data-3GB flat to download it... |
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| 13:53.06 | kirk781 | jelly, Between using unsupported versions of Firefox vs Palemoon, the latter is a less shitty choice |
| 13:54.29 | TheBigK | kirk781: as of previous installation he wants to use a current browser to show websites in a decent fashion without needing to uprgade his debian squeeze system... |
| 13:54.39 | TheBigK | *previous conversations |
| 13:55.19 | kirk781 | Huh,Squeeze is quite old. |
| 13:55.38 | TimTahler | especially ebay-captchas dont work any more.., cant log in from this linux , using windows for it. |
| 13:56.31 | petn-randall | Well, squeeze is unsupported for ... 7 years now? Time to upgrade? |
| 13:56.44 | jelly | !release history |
| 13:56.44 | dpkg | Named after "Toy Story" characters. Buzz(1.1; 1996-03-14), Rex(1.2; 1996-10-28), Bo(1.3; 1997-05-01), Hamm(2.0; 1998-07-24), Slink(2.1; 1999-03-09), Potato(2.2; 2000-08-15), Woody(3.0; 2002-07-19), Sarge(3.1; 2005-06-06), Etch(4.0; 2007-04-08), Lenny(5.0; 2009-02-14), Squeeze(6.0; 2011-02-06), Wheezy(7; 2013-05-04), Jessie(8; 2015-04-25), Stretch (9; 2017-06-17), Buster (10; 2019-07-06). Next: Bullseye. http://deb.li/it56U |
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| 13:57.17 | jelly | even accounting for squeeze-lts, it's been 5+ years |
| 13:57.28 | TheBigK | TimTahler: does a current firefox not install on ur squeeze? |
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| 13:57.50 | inbe4 | Hm, why is Firefox only on version 78 on Bullseye? |
| 13:57.58 | jelly | !firefox-esr |
| 13:57.59 | dpkg | In stable, firefox-esr (Extended Support Release) will be updated to the next release when the old version is no longer supported by Mozilla; this is normally forced by a security update and often breaks many packaged extensions. In testing/unstable firefox-esr is updated after having matured in experimental for a suitable time. |
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| 13:58.17 | jelly | inbe4, ^ because Debian uses that branck |
| 13:58.31 | TimTahler | TheBigK: , firefox 47, 52 and version 77 refused to install... |
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| 13:59.11 | TheBigK | TimTahler: which error message did u get... |
| 13:59.12 | petn-randall | TimTahler: Is there a reason you're avoiding to answer our questions? |
| 13:59.12 | inbe4 | jelly: Ohh I see! Didn't even know that Firefox had an extend support version. Neat! |
| 13:59.52 | inbe4 | Don't notice any difference between 78 and 88 anyways, so it should be fine :) |
| 14:00.44 | inbe4 | I like that the bot have answeres prepared, then you know you ask a question that is being asked often XD |
| 14:01.09 | TimTahler | TheBigK: XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /opt/firefox-47.0b7/libmozgtk.so:libgtk-3.so.0: |
| 14:01.12 | TimTahler | libgtk-3.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| 14:01.14 | TimTahler | Couldn't load XPCOM. |
| 14:02.06 | petn-randall | ... why are we discussing installing unsupported Firefox versions on unsupported Debian releases? |
| 14:02.20 | petn-randall | Anyways, I'm out. |
| 14:02.44 | TheBigK | TimTahler: did u try to compile a current firefox urself? |
| 14:04.47 | kirk781 | As for unsupported versions of Firefox, I do use an older version of FF on Android though that is because the later versions are not at same feature parity["Tab Queue" thing] |
| 14:04.49 | TimTahler | TheBigK: naaahhh..., i did scrambled eggs some years ago.., but i dont know how to compile... |
| 14:05.16 | TheBigK | TimTahler: then back to the original question... why not upgrading to newer debian versions? |
| 14:05.49 | TimTahler | lol |
| 14:06.30 | TheBigK | TimTahler: u heared already that ur debian version is not supported in any way... why laughing when i ask a legit question |
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| 14:08.14 | TimTahler | could i not just download / salvage libgtk-3 and do a local softlink from libgtk-2.0 to libgtk-3.0 |
| 14:08.27 | kirk781 | Wait, you can compile scrambled eggs? |
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| 14:08.57 | jelly | TimTahler, no, you could not |
| 14:09.27 | TheBigK | its hard to help someone who does not reply to questions... im done |
| 14:10.00 | jelly | TimTahler, hi, can you read this? |
| 14:11.54 | TimTahler | :>-) |
| 14:12.50 | TheBigK | obviously hes a troll... |
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| 14:25.44 | sigint | inbe4, you can also use the Firefox that is not packaged by Debian and follow the releases from Mozilla just like you would on Windows/MacOS |
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| 14:31.06 | TimTahler | Whooooo..., ebay captchas work with 45.0b7-sdk, but the capchats are shown in a kind of a pop-up... |
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| 14:43.03 | inbe4 | sigint: Yes, i saw that I can just download the latest version direcly from Mozilla :) |
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| 14:59.23 | inbe4 | If I want to start contributing to Debian, eventually becoming a package maintainer would be awesome. Where can I start? I study COmputer Science, and will do so for 5 more years. So I have plenty of free time :) |
| 14:59.59 | greycat | !nmg |
| 14:59.59 | dpkg | The packaging tutorial (https://deb.li/QYyI) and the New Maintainer's Guide (https://deb.li/3DiDA) are good places to start learning about Debian packaging. You should also ask me about <devref> and <policy> to understand how packages should be maintained and how they should interact with each other. Ask me about <package basics>, <mentors>, <best practices> <build without helper>. https://www.debian.org/devel/ |
| 15:00.39 | inbe4 | greycat: Oh, perfect. Thanks! |
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| 15:01.58 | inbe4 | Packaging on Debian is a bit harder on Debian then on Arch, I've heard :) |
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| 15:41.23 | petn-randall | inbe4: I don't have any comparison with Arch, but I can also recommend #debian-mentors on irc.debian.org, which are quite a helpful bunch. |
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| 15:49.47 | mirko | updated firefox to v88 from sid and for almost half the sites i'm visiting tabs are reproducibly crashing with "basic_string::_M_construct null not valid". Searching the internets doesn't reveal this being a common/known issue. how to follow up on this / narrow it down? |
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| 15:50.39 | Wulf | mirko: try starting with a fresh profile |
| 15:50.50 | mirko | Wulf: i do already |
| 15:50.54 | mirko | within a ramdisk |
| 15:51.19 | Wulf | mirko: well, it works for me. So must be something with your setup |
| 15:51.41 | Wulf | mirko: what does "updated firefox to v88 from sid" mean? What's the OS on your computer? |
| 15:52.02 | mirko | Running Debian Buster, installed firefox from unstable |
| 15:52.08 | Wulf | mirko: sounds like a bad idea. |
| 15:52.22 | mirko | Wulf: aha? |
| 15:52.59 | mirko | Wulf: if firefox v88 has dependencies not being met by debian/buster they should be referenced |
| 15:53.42 | Wulf | mirko: you could download firefox from mozilla.org insteaad |
| 15:54.08 | petn-randall | !frankendebian |
| 15:54.09 | dpkg | When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall> |
| 15:54.14 | mirko | Wulf: my intention is rather to narrow down and fix the issue rather than downloading 3rd party binaries |
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| 15:54.35 | petn-randall | mirko: Given that firefox will never migrate to testing, they probably aren't so well documented. |
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| 15:54.49 | mirko | petn-randall: they as in dependencies? |
| 15:54.54 | petn-randall | yes |
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| 15:55.40 | mirko | understood, didn't know such dependency issues aren't considered as actual bugs - thanks for clarifying |
| 15:56.48 | petn-randall | They are; but since firefox (as opposed to firefox-esr) is only packaged for convenience, there never are any upgrade tests done. |
| 15:57.25 | petn-randall | mirko: A better option, if you really want firefox instead of firefox-esr, is to use https://mozilla.debian.net/. |
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| 15:58.04 | mirko | got it, i'm still not convinced it's a dependency issue (assuming it's dependening on a fixed/newer libstdc++) - because i'd figure that would be mentioned and easily be found as issue somewhere on the net |
| 15:58.44 | petn-randall | Oh, seems as though it's not being updated anymore. Probably due to rust issues. |
| 15:59.18 | petn-randall | mirko: Frankendebian is not something that people do often, so I'm not surprised at all. |
| 15:59.59 | mirko | i did it only for firefox and it was working fine till v87 |
| 16:00.16 | mirko | thanks anyway |
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| 16:01.38 | petn-randall | mirko: It might be a mere coincidence it worked before. |
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| 16:10.39 | inbe4 | petn-randall: Thanks for the suggestion! Are you a package maintainer? |
| 16:11.27 | petn-randall | yes |
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| 16:52.18 | dob1 | I want to create a script specifyinf an amount of time as argument. that script will run a program (keeping it in foreground) and after this amount of time will kill the program. Any idea to how to do this? I was thinking to use at |
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| 16:52.45 | greycat | man 1 timeout |
| 16:53.34 | dob1 | ah nice! |
| 16:55.05 | Druid | ayy ty greycat |
| 16:55.07 | Druid | and dob1 |
| 16:55.13 | Druid | for asking |
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| 16:56.21 | sney | though if you are delaying command starts/quits because of a race condition, it's better to test for the state you actually need rather than hoping a time delay will be enough. |
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| 16:57.06 | greycat | This wouldn't delay the *start* of a command. That would be sleep(1). |
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| 18:07.03 | McErroneous | testing... |
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| 18:07.42 | jelly | testing failed, McErroneous |
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| 18:18.10 | ratrace | one could saay, the testing was .... Erroneous. |
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| 18:19.50 | hwpplayer1 | hi I'm trying to create a debian package for Python programming language 3.9.5 |
| 18:24.45 | hwpplayer1 | Any debian mentor here ? |
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| 18:31.01 | jason1234 | In year 2003, which debian version (release) and Ubuntu release were available? maybe debian potatoe and ubuntu 1.0 ? |
| 18:31.59 | jason1234 | hwpplayer1: https://www.howtoforge.com/howto_linux_debian_deb_checkinstall |
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| 18:32.42 | greycat | !debian releases |
| 18:32.43 | dpkg | Named after "Toy Story" characters. Buzz(1.1; 1996-03-14), Rex(1.2; 1996-10-28), Bo(1.3; 1997-05-01), Hamm(2.0; 1998-07-24), Slink(2.1; 1999-03-09), Potato(2.2; 2000-08-15), Woody(3.0; 2002-07-19), Sarge(3.1; 2005-06-06), Etch(4.0; 2007-04-08), Lenny(5.0; 2009-02-14), Squeeze(6.0; 2011-02-06), Wheezy(7; 2013-05-04), Jessie(8; 2015-04-25), Stretch (9; 2017-06-17), Buster (10; 2019-07-06). Next: Bullseye. http://deb.li/it56U |
| 18:32.55 | jason1234 | cool |
| 18:33.21 | greycat | (woddy) |
| 18:33.21 | jason1234 | smart Bot !debian ... maybe a friend of Alexa |
| 18:33.25 | greycat | (woody) |
| 18:33.31 | jason1234 | thanks |
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| 18:35.34 | jason1234 | !debian release |
| 18:35.35 | dpkg | Debian 10 "Buster" was released on 2019-07-06. It is now considered "stable". Ask me about <install debian>, <stretch->buster> to upgrade from Debian 9 "Stretch". See http://www.debian.org/releases/ or <release history> for other releases. For updates from the Debian Release Team, see http://release.debian.org/ |
| 18:35.43 | jason1234 | !debian releases |
| 18:35.43 | dpkg | Named after "Toy Story" characters. Buzz(1.1; 1996-03-14), Rex(1.2; 1996-10-28), Bo(1.3; 1997-05-01), Hamm(2.0; 1998-07-24), Slink(2.1; 1999-03-09), Potato(2.2; 2000-08-15), Woody(3.0; 2002-07-19), Sarge(3.1; 2005-06-06), Etch(4.0; 2007-04-08), Lenny(5.0; 2009-02-14), Squeeze(6.0; 2011-02-06), Wheezy(7; 2013-05-04), Jessie(8; 2015-04-25), Stretch (9; 2017-06-17), Buster (10; 2019-07-06). Next: Bullseye. http://deb.li/it56U |
| 18:35.53 | jason1234 | !debian help |
| 18:35.53 | dpkg | Well, you've come to the right place, #debian :-) |
| 18:36.31 | jason1234 | !debian moo |
| 18:36.45 | jelly | !botabuse |
| 18:36.45 | dpkg | lay off me you buggerererers!!11! |
| 18:36.47 | jason1234 | !debian apt-get moo |
| 18:37.30 | jelly | jason1234, you can ask the bot in private, /msg dpkg moo |
| 18:37.45 | *** join/#debian user6688 (~user@82.131.45.216.cable.starman.ee) |
| 18:37.53 | greycat | the trigger is simply ! not !debian. "debian releases" was the name of the factoid. |
| 18:37.57 | jason1234 | I thought it was kinda private, thanks. that's a cool thing. |
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| 18:38.29 | greycat | dpkg, literal debian release |
| 18:38.29 | dpkg | "debian release" is "<reply> see release" |
| 18:38.30 | jelly | it's kind of private in that only 1034 people all over the internet see the results |
| 18:38.51 | jelly | dpkg, literal release history |
| 18:38.51 | dpkg | "release history" is "<reply>Named after "Toy Story" characters. Buzz(1.1; 1996-03-14), Rex(1.2; 1996-10-28), Bo(1.3; 1997-05-01), Hamm(2.0; 1998-07-24), Slink(2.1; 1999-03-09), Potato(2.2; 2000-08-15), Woody(3.0; 2002-07-19), Sarge(3.1; 2005-06-06), Etch(4.0; 2007-04-08), Lenny(5.0; 2009-02-14), Squeeze(6.0; 2011-02-06), Wheezy(7; 2013-05-04), Jessie(8; 2015-04-25), Stretch (9; 2017-06-17), Buster (10; 2019-07-06). Next: Bullseye. http://deb.li/it56U" |
| 18:38.57 | jason1234 | moo is cool, like early debian --- all like 20 or 30 years ago. |
| 18:39.05 | jelly | I didn't even know it had symlinks |
| 18:39.27 | greycat | I didn't either. Quite a few, apparently. Including one tree that leads to "release" which is different. |
| 18:39.56 | jason1234 | the "moo" is present, that's amazing that still you thought about programming it. |
| 18:40.52 | jason1234 | jelly: why the way, why toy story? who invented or created debian? |
| 18:41.02 | greycat | that would be Bruce Perens |
| 18:41.13 | greycat | I mean, the person responsible for the Toy Story theme |
| 18:41.29 | jelly | some people used to work at or around Pixar? |
| 18:41.40 | jelly | dpkg, |
| 18:41.40 | dpkg | jelly: have you tried http://www.tldp.org/ ? |
| 18:42.00 | jelly | !toy story |
| 18:42.00 | dpkg | The names of the Debian releases (buzz, rex, woody, ...) are the characters from the "Toy Story" animated movie. Toy Story was released by Pixar November 22nd, 1995; one year later Debian 1.1 was released. Bruce Perens was the <Debian Project Leader> at the time and also worked for Pixar. See http://wiki.debian.org/ToyStory and ask me about <release history>. |
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| 18:42.36 | jason1234 | did pixar use Linux, btw? |
| 18:42.52 | jelly | yes they did, possibly still do |
| 18:43.14 | jason1234 | come one, apple ddid pixar |
| 18:43.24 | mentor | They still have their own rendering infrastructure |
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| 18:46.36 | jelly | jason1234, count the penguins https://renderman.pixar.com/tractor |
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| 18:51.46 | echoSMILE | https://wiki.debian.org/Modem/3G/Ericsson is this card able to make calls at Debian? |
| 18:53.03 | jelly | voice calls? |
| 18:53.31 | echoSMILE | jelly: yes |
| 18:53.51 | jelly | does any 3G, 4G or 5G modem do that? |
| 18:54.03 | jelly | on any OS? |
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| 18:54.36 | echoSMILE | jelly: is a device like this mobile phones has for voice calls? |
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| 18:55.47 | jelly | I don't know |
| 18:56.07 | dfcnvt | Greeting, knows any tool or configuration that will split the workspace vertically/horizontally (in any configurable way) in a single monitor? (Or apply both two monitors with many workspace...rather than one workspace for one monitor. |
| 18:57.19 | dfcnvt | For now, I'm interested to have a split of 2x3 workspaces for both of my monitors. |
| 18:57.57 | dfcnvt | Mind you, I don't mean the multi-workspace where I can change to the next desktop (Ctrl+Alt+Up/Down). |
| 18:58.57 | dfcnvt | This is as far as I can find it...but want to know if we have something like this with (assumeably) a build-in to Debian. https://github.com/phillipberndt/fakexrandr |
| 18:59.10 | jelly | that would mostly be a window manager manipulation to limit some windows only to specific parts of the screen |
| 18:59.25 | jelly | s/would/could/ |
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| 19:02.09 | jelly | dfcnvt, how would you switch? Would a programmable tiling window manager like i3 or dwm be enough? |
| 19:04.19 | dfcnvt | (reading/researching the dwm...) |
| 19:04.37 | alkisg | Will all the "workspaces" belong to the same xorg session / user? |
| 19:09.21 | dfcnvt | I think....window manager may not be what I'm looking for. (I'm not entirely what the window manager do -- is it the same context as gnome?) |
| 19:09.32 | dfcnvt | alkisg: Uhh, yes. |
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| 19:10.01 | alkisg | OK |
| 19:10.29 | alkisg | I'm not sure what these "workspaces" are then. Just an easier way to move windows around? |
| 19:11.23 | jelly | dfcnvt, window manager... manages placement of windows and their behaviour and interaction |
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| 19:12.10 | jelly | it's an important part of each desktop environment, but can be a standalone component as well |
| 19:13.24 | dfcnvt | For the sake of understanding my requirement: Currently, I have two physical monitors. And I am looking at two workspaces (one workspace for my left physical monitor and another workspace for my right physical monitor). All good, all fine. If I watch YouTube on my right physical monitor and put up to Full Screen, it'll take over as full screen of my right physical monitor. Now, my requirement/demands |
| 19:13.25 | jelly | tiling WMs optimize placement and management of windows so that absolutely minimum space is wasted. Who needs window BORDERS |
| 19:13.30 | dfcnvt | is this -- create a vertical split of workspace of both physical monitors. It'll end up as 4 separate workspace. And whenever I put YouTube to full screen on my fourth, it'll take over just that space within the fourth screen. make sense? |
| 19:13.34 | dfcnvt | (Sorry for long text) |
| 19:14.10 | jelly | so you just want full screen not to take up full screen any more for one specific app |
| 19:15.41 | dfcnvt | Right -- my only complaint/reason for this is simply too many tabs/borders/scrollbar. Best if I just treat as if I have four virtual monitors on my two physical monitors. |
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| 19:18.34 | jelly | this can probably be done with a decent WM, but I can't find actual solutions, mostly people work around it with separate fake X displays (xephyr, that fake xrandr thing...) |
| 19:18.52 | jelly | eg: not a solution https://faq.i3wm.org/question/2242/full-screen-to-container.1.html |
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| 19:21.42 | dfcnvt | Yeah, I'll limit myself to this research here >> https://www.google.com/search?q=xrandr+fake+monitor |
| 19:24.55 | jelly | just saying, that seems like a suboptimal approach given that window manipulation inside a single screen is usually WM's domain |
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| 19:29.51 | dfcnvt | Okay, here's the crux of it. let's say I have only one physical monitor. And I have four YouTube video, I'd like to watch those four at the same time (just cause). I want them four to put up as full screen but equally shared (2x2). If I limit myself to WM -- I assume I just need to resize the browser itself and deals with looking at all of those junk along with an embedded video and a browser's border |
| 19:29.57 | dfcnvt | with it. Unless you're telling me that WM can do that job exactly, to make it skinless and can make up four containers for that single monitor? |
| 19:31.00 | dfcnvt | (I haven't really played much with WM for i3m) |
| 19:33.37 | inbe4 | Is it good practice to download individual deb-files, for example, i installed libappindicator3-1 manually, beacuse that was not installable on bullseye |
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| 19:33.52 | inbe4 | I guess my quesiton is: Can that break something? |
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| 19:34.53 | somiaj | inbe4: installing packages not designed for the release you are running can cause problems. So answer is it depends. |
| 19:35.13 | somiaj | In general we don't recommend doing that, but there are specific cases it can be done safely. |
| 19:35.29 | dfcnvt | inbe4: I went to see if package manager has it -- it does. >> apt-cache search libappindicator3-1 |
| 19:36.01 | dfcnvt | inbe4: Your question stands. (I sometime ponder this too) |
| 19:37.17 | inbe4 | somiaj: So, I needed it for installing Slack. So i installed libappindicator3-1, I guess the problem might be dependencies? |
| 19:37.20 | somiaj | https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=895037 -- though in your case it is often useful to figure out why it was removed. |
| 19:37.21 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/895037 in src:libappindicator (open, bullseye, sid): «libappindicator: deprecated in Debian; AppIndicator based applications, please switch to Ayatana (App)Indicator(s)»; severity: serious; opened: 2018-04-06; last modified: 2021-04-25. |
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| 19:37.33 | inbe4 | dfcnvt: On bullseye? |
| 19:37.49 | greycat | ,v libappindicator3-1 |
| 19:37.50 | judd | Package: libappindicator3-1 on amd64 -- jessie: 0.4.92-3.1; stretch: 0.4.92-4; buster: 0.4.92-7; sid: 0.4.92-8 |
| 19:38.07 | dfcnvt | inbe4: Oh, I thought you might be referring to Debian...? |
| 19:38.10 | somiaj | inbe4: correct, dependencies can be the issue, and in this case packages are often removed for a reason, so nice to know what. |
| 19:39.00 | inbe4 | somiaj: Oh, so it's deprecated! I should probably remove those packages then.. |
| 19:39.11 | inbe4 | I can always use flatpak for Slack I guess :) |
| 19:39.12 | dfcnvt | (Nevermind, I take it back -- didn't realize the name of version to Debian is bulleye) |
| 19:40.06 | inbe4 | dfcnvt: The current testing-branch has the code name Bullseye. You probably use Buster, which is the current stable branch |
| 19:40.37 | dfcnvt | inbe4: Aye, yes. |
| 19:40.54 | somiaj | inbe4: thrid party stuff isn't fully supported here, and in general a lot depends on what it is. Some stuff makes good packages that are compadable with debian, others don't. But it appears that the package you are looking for was made for buster, not bullseye, which is why it needs this now depricated libary and hasn't been updated. |
| 19:41.30 | inbe4 | somiaj: Yes, that makes sense! |
| 19:41.41 | inbe4 | Thanks for helping me figure this out :) |
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| 19:42.17 | somiaj | inbe4: note, in this particular case since the package is compadable with testing I think you'll be fine, but that is the 'it depends', so my general advise is don't get in the habbit of installing .deb's for a different release than you are running. |
| 19:42.41 | somiaj | inbe4: so if that one libary is all you need for slack, I think you'll be just fine, just realize any bugs in the lib or desktop aren't something debian can really help with. |
| 19:43.30 | jelly | dfcnvt, I'd imagine a tiling wm could do that, but I haven't actually used any. I've used devilspie and kde and afterstep's to force window sizes and placements before, and if you were using a media player for yt instead of a browser that would be easily doable |
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| 19:44.10 | inbe4 | somiaj: Yes, is was just the one package, but I will keep this in mind for future situations! |
| 19:44.36 | somiaj | dfcnvt: also maybe youtube-dl and running 4 video players might be easier to tile the windows than youtube in a browser (since you won't be full screen) |
| 19:44.50 | somiaj | dfcnvt: mpv will have nice small windows you could easily tile |
| 19:45.15 | dfcnvt | Well...What about Netflix, you can't get the media file. |
| 19:46.36 | somiaj | dfcnvt: I just saw youtube, but yea you can tile browsers, might depend on the site if they have a 'popout' window that is almost all video or not. I was just pointing out that running in a browser window may have a lot of additonal stuff when viewing |
| 19:47.10 | somiaj | another thought I had was using something like xypher and running it fullscreen inside a nested xserver, then tiling those windows. Maybe that could work, though might be a lot of overhead to setup. |
| 19:48.11 | jelly | Xephyr incurs overhead |
| 19:48.21 | somiaj | arg xephyr |
| 19:48.52 | jelly | yo dawg I heard you liked X servers |
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| 19:49.36 | jelly | video decoding and display inside would probably be less accelerated |
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| 19:49.50 | jelly | that may or may not be a problem |
| 19:50.15 | jmcnaught | dfcnvt: one tip that might help is if you replace the "watch?v=" part of a YouTube URL with "embed/" then the video takes up the entire viewport. |
| 19:51.21 | dfcnvt | jmcnaught: Make matter worse if I want to watch it on another domain that may not follow this respect. (Netflix, Paramount+, etc) |
| 19:51.52 | dfcnvt | Bah, I reject WM. Split the spacework! |
| 19:53.02 | dfcnvt | workspace** |
| 19:53.19 | dfcnvt | (Reading this article now... https://www.pcworld.com/article/2894354/dont-forget-one-of-linuxs-best-features-how-to-use-multiple-workspaces.html ) |
| 19:54.32 | jelly | you keep using that word, workspaces |
| 19:54.51 | dfcnvt | Virtual desktop? |
| 19:54.58 | dfcnvt | Not sure which is the proper word for it. |
| 19:56.42 | dfcnvt | Alright, I'm making this as final, will experiment this one >> https://github.com/phillipberndt/fakexrandr |
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| 20:20.46 | inbe4 | Is it possible to run debian stable, but with the latest amd software? Becausethe only reason i run testing is because the performance on my AMD laptop is bad. Even with backports |
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| 20:21.31 | tarzeau_ | amd laptop? you mean a laptop with an amd cpu? |
| 20:22.13 | greycat | !buster-backports |
| 20:22.13 | dpkg | Some packages intended for Bullseye (Debian 11) but recompiled for use with Buster (Debian 10) can be found in the buster-backports repository. See http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . Ask me about <bdo>, <backports>. |
| 20:22.25 | sney | and the award for not reading the whole message goes to.. |
| 20:22.33 | inbe4 | tarzeau_: Yes :) |
| 20:22.49 | greycat | Well, what the fuck does he want from us? Super double-secret backports? |
| 20:22.50 | sney | inbe4: if backports didn't improve your situation, it's unlikely that anything "latest" will |
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| 20:23.19 | inbe4 | greycat: Yes, please! lol |
| 20:23.24 | sney | inbe4: but if you are asking about a specific piece of software, specify it, and we might have better answers |
| 20:24.42 | inbe4 | sney: Im actually not sure what the exact problem is. It is not an issue with the kernel 5.8, because that works fineon other distros. I thibnk it might be the firmware blobs |
| 20:24.56 | inbe4 | Which are these: firmware-amd-graphics libgl1-mesa-dri libglx-mesa0 mesa-vulkan-drivers xserver-xorg-video-all |
| 20:25.07 | sney | only one of those packages contains firmware |
| 20:26.00 | inbe4 | Yeah, so the problem is probably with firmware-amd-graphics |
| 20:26.43 | sney | firmware tends to be a yes/no proposition, you don't typically see performance improvements from newer blobs. why are you on a 5.8 kernel? buster-backports has been at 5.10 for a while now |
| 20:27.40 | sney | firmware-amd-graphics in buster-backports is also reasonably current, at 20210315 which is the same version in debian unstable |
| 20:27.49 | inbe4 | sney: Yeah, i meant 5.10. Which is the same as testing. And testing runs great. So the performance issues does not make sense to me |
| 20:28.14 | sney | mesa and xorg in testing are both newer, that might be the culprit then |
| 20:28.31 | inbe4 | sney: Yes, mesa is probably the issue! |
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| 20:28.50 | inbe4 | Nothing to be done about that I guess |
| 20:28.57 | sney | yep, just use bullseye |
| 20:29.35 | inbe4 | Yeah |
| 20:30.25 | inbe4 | I thought mesa was built into the kernel though, i think that is why i ot confused about the performance issues lol |
| 20:30.43 | greycat | it's most definitely not |
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| 20:32.31 | sney | mesa has always been a separate library, but the way drivers work in linux can take some getting used to for sure. at least if/when wayland takes over, or at least as modesetting improves, we won't have to worry about separate "drivers" in the kernel *and* X |
| 20:35.56 | inbe4 | sney: Yeah, I've used Arch for a couple of years, and I never had to worry about amd drivers, so I guess that was the reason why i believed it was built into the kernel |
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| 20:50.22 | RadoS | When using wicd I can see WLANs, when I disable it and use NetworkManager, WLANs are not visible, and I can't check to eneble WLAN functioanlity in the applet, what can cause this? |
| 20:51.14 | sney | if your interface is listed in /etc/network/interfaces, n-m will ignore it but wicd will not |
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| 22:33.25 | [E]sc | my internet connection periodically disconnects. i'm not sure why, and i have to manually restart NetworkingManager.service. Is there a fix for this? |
| 22:34.03 | sney | need more information first, can you see the disconnects in e.g. journalctl or dmesg? |
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| 22:37.46 | sappheiros | show of hands, who failed to install debian today? |
| 22:37.49 | sappheiros | raises hand |
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| 22:38.25 | sappheiros | if you would like to help me become a debian (?) i basically need hardware help :< i plan to start searching the web now |
| 22:38.58 | inbe4 | sappheiros: What hardware do you have now? |
| 22:40.14 | [E]sc | sney: not sure if this is related, but there's a wpa_supplicant wlan0 CTRL-EVENT-BEACON-LOSS? |
| 22:41.54 | sney | [E]sc: sure, that's a lost signal. what's your wifi device, and how far away is the access point? |
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| 22:42.47 | [E]sc | sney: maybe like 5m? |
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| 22:44.38 | sney | [E]sc: I believe there were 2 parts to that question |
| 22:47.14 | [E]sc | sney: dlink systems. |
| 22:47.24 | somiaj | sappheiros: Might want to start with what install medium did you use? How did you copy it to the usb drive? And what was the error/failure point, and we can help. |
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| 22:47.58 | sney | [E]sc: what do you see from 'lspci |grep -i net' ? |
| 22:48.28 | [E]sc | sney: but meanwhile my browser on google chrome doesn't connect, this works, as well as transmission. |
| 22:48.59 | [E]sc | sney: Intel Corporation Wireless 8265 / 8275 (rev 78) |
| 22:49.11 | sney | irc is a dialup-era protocol, it can handle log timeouts. bittorrent is similarly resilient |
| 22:50.43 | sappheiros | somiaj: USB installer, couldn't get an HDMI signal to my monitor from my graphics card; CPU and DRAM lights red on the motherboard, wondering if i broke the CPU without realizing it by pushing hard to attach the heatsink latches |
| 22:51.19 | somiaj | sappheiros: okay, back to the questions I actually asked. Whick install image? How did you copy it to the usb? |
| 22:51.40 | somiaj | sappheiros: Also, does your machine even POST? |
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| 22:52.06 | [E]sc | tor browser connects though. chrome comes and goes. youtube on chrome fails sometimes, but connects with tor, sometimes youtube-dl doesn't connect. |
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| 22:52.27 | sappheiros | no POST beeps, and i used the version 10 USB image from the debian site |
| 22:53.12 | sney | [E]sc: is the wifi access point in your control? beacon issues can sometimes be solved by disabling 802.11b at that end (so you only support 802.11g and up) |
| 22:54.04 | [E]sc | sney: let me see try that. |
| 22:54.22 | sney | it's also *possible* that the newer kernel in buster-backports might have some iwlwifi improvements, but I'd look at the router first |
| 22:55.27 | somiaj | sappheiros: yea sounds like your problem is hardware first, until you can get your machine to POST and get into its firmware/bios, I wouldn't worry about installing anything. |
| 22:55.58 | sappheiros | right, that's why i messaged inbe4 in #offtopic since it was about hardware |
| 22:56.10 | sappheiros | *responded to inbe4 (not /msg) |
| 22:56.33 | somiaj | there is ##hardware |
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| 23:04.37 | [E]sc | sney: thanks for your help. hopefully this will fix it. |
| 23:04.52 | sney | [E]sc: np, good luck |
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| 23:13.02 | segamain | Does anybody here know a good hardware channel (freenode ##hardware doesn't count it's not helpful) This is not cross posting I've already asked on oftc and got no helpful answers |
| 23:14.01 | sney | I have never seen good hardware support on IRC in at *least* the past 10 years. I suspect forums still run the show for that. |
| 23:14.32 | segamain | sney: forum ?? |
| 23:14.52 | sney | yeah, like reddit or hardocp or whatever |
| 23:15.24 | segamain | I've got a mouse problem can you suggest a forum |
| 23:16.01 | sney | I would have to google it and then tell you. you can skip that step and google it yourself |
| 23:16.34 | segamain | :D |
| 23:16.41 | segamain | XD |
| 23:16.54 | abrotman | Oh, ##hardware |
| 23:16.57 | somiaj | also cross postion is usually discouraged. |
| 23:17.22 | somiaj | cross-posting....grr |
| 23:17.37 | segamain | soiaj: Is what I just did considered cross posting ?? |
| 23:18.31 | somiaj | segamain: yes, you asked the same question here and on oftc. |
| 23:18.46 | segamain | abortman: weelll yeah 100% useless no cap |
| 23:19.38 | somiaj | segamain: in this case not a big deal, just sharing that for future reference. |
| 23:19.40 | abrotman | segamain: well, that's the channel. Or ask #freenode maybe if there's sometihng better. This isn't it |
| 23:20.28 | segamain | abortman: how can I ask #freenode what do you mean ? |
| 23:20.39 | segamain | ahhh it's channel right ? |
| 23:21.17 | abrotman | Is <tab> really that hard? |
| 23:22.52 | segamain | soimaj: just curious here. How deep do these rules go ? if a channel doesn't respond or can't help me am I not allowed to ask on other channels ? |
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| 23:23.19 | abrotman | This channel is for Debian support, is that confusing in some way? |
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| 23:25.28 | segamain | abortman: <bullshit alert> I asked a question about cross posting, not about the channel </bullshit alert> |
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| 23:26.46 | abrotman | And you were told already it seems? |
| 23:27.16 | somiaj | segamain: It is more politness, no strict rule, but usually give a channell 30mins or so to respond. |
| 23:27.43 | somiaj | !cross-post |
| 23:27.43 | dpkg | Posting the same question in several places at the same time (IRC channels, news groups, mailing lists, forums) is impolite; your time is NOT more valuable than everyone else's. Your question might be answered elsewhere, meanwhile we are wasting our time doing research for a problem you've already solved. Cross-posting can also make you look like a spammer and get you k:lined. See also <multiple ask> <hurry>. |
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| 23:29.12 | segamain | soimaj: 30 mins got it |
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| 23:32.07 | segamain | damn these people on #freenode just ignore you, It's like on ##hardware but much more sad :´( |
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| 23:33.41 | monkwitdafunk | hello! anything debian related to chat about? |
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| 23:35.34 | segamain | well, when I open cs:go It just shows a black screen |
| 23:35.43 | segamain | on steam os |
| 23:35.46 | segamain | any help |
| 23:36.09 | sney | segamain: for steamos ask in #steamos or #steamlug |
| 23:36.44 | segamain | thank you |
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| 23:38.14 | segamain | monkwitdafunk: hypocrit |
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| 23:41.11 | monkwitdafunk | sney : does debian have hardware testing? |
| 23:41.26 | sney | what do you mean? |
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