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| 00:03.58 | nicoz | .gn |
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| 02:27.43 | sappheiros | Do I need to be concerned about a firewall in Debian 10? |
| 02:28.49 | sappheiros | reads https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-manual/firewall-setup.en.html |
| 02:29.56 | sney | depends on what your system is for and where you are using it |
| 02:30.40 | sappheiros | i just found that same statement on the page linking to https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-manual/securityreferences.en.html |
| 02:30.54 | sappheiros | thanks |
| 02:30.59 | sney | np |
| 02:31.10 | sappheiros | but would you say it's safer than default macOS or Win10 with no other changes or installed packages? |
| 02:31.21 | sappheiros | assuming you don't visit bad websites |
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| 02:31.36 | sappheiros | i've heard the answer is yes because most viruses target win/mac as main OS |
| 02:32.32 | sney | windows's default firewall is pretty locked down these days, microsoft learned that one the hard way. but yes, linux tends to be safer at default, because there are fewer bundled network services trying to do things that you didn't intentionally set up. |
| 02:32.38 | sappheiros | sorry, i'm just procrastinating something, not asking questions that need answers i suppose; i'll be quiet |
| 02:32.53 | sappheiros | thanks. interesting. |
| 02:33.00 | sney | regardless, if this is a personal computer on a private network you can safely not use a firewall at all. your nat router is already handling that. |
| 02:33.15 | sappheiros | oh, and yeah, i had to grant access to multiple software -- or every software -- i've installed on win10 recently. was mildly annoyed. |
| 02:33.21 | sappheiros | ("why isn't libre office working?!") |
| 02:34.09 | sney | I've gone down a network troubleshooting rabbit hole a couple of times before remembering that windows 7 and up firewalls block ICMP ping by default. >_> |
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| 03:07.38 | sappheiros | is halt the same as clicking power off > suspend? |
| 03:08.10 | sney | no |
| 03:08.11 | sappheiros | right, you told me to experiment |
| 03:08.15 | sappheiros | oh, good, i didn't experimnet >_> |
| 03:09.02 | sney | https://tldp.org/LDP/GNU-Linux-Tools-Summary/html/x5152.htm |
| 03:09.38 | sappheiros | thanks ... starting tomorrow i will search Internet more before asking |
| 03:09.49 | sney | tip: when asking about something low level or basic, google it along with 'tldp', or look it up on the tldp.org site. lots of us learned a lot of what we know from that site, and a lot of it is still accurate |
| 03:13.02 | sappheiros | wooooooooooo thanks |
| 03:13.06 | sappheiros | wonders if tldp is related to RTFM |
| 03:13.34 | sney | haha, I suspect it's a little younger. |
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| 04:01.17 | cronolio | hi, where i can find out eap-peap plugin for strongswan ? |
| 04:04.10 | cronolio | by this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/strongswan/+bug/1878887 i understand that this plugin was removed in debian and returned back by ubuntu |
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| 04:07.06 | cronolio | but i am debian user, so in my logs i see like 'server requested eap-peap', and my question is how i can use eap-peap |
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| 04:19.08 | Shtl | Hello |
| 04:19.11 | Shtl | [INFO] [UHD] linux; GNU C++ version 10.2.1 20201207; Boost_107400; UHD_3.15.0.0-4+b1 |
| 04:19.11 | Shtl | [ERROR] SoapySDR::loadModule(/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/SoapySDR/modules0.7/librfspaceSupport.so) |
| 04:19.12 | Shtl | Â dlopen() failed: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/SoapySDR/modules0.7/librfspaceSupport.so: undefined symbol: _ZN5boost6chrono12steady_clock3nowEv |
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| 05:07.00 | johnjay | if i understand the package site it says automake depends on autoconf |
| 05:07.20 | johnjay | yet when i installed autoconf on a fresh buster install it also installs automake despite it not being a dependency. why is this? |
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| 05:09.35 | gateway2000 | autoconf recommends automake and debian installs recommended packages by default |
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| 05:11.37 | johnjay | ok |
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| 05:12.06 | johnjay | i thought those were just helpful tips |
| 05:12.22 | johnjay | i guess that would be suggested packages |
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| 05:14.32 | gateway2000 | I've found it more reliable in most cases to install the recommended packages. Some people don't though |
| 05:15.32 | johnjay | do you stay on stable or go straight to testing? |
| 05:15.47 | johnjay | i'm just on buster because someone else installed debian on this |
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| 05:17.34 | gateway2000 | I like stable |
| 05:19.07 | johnjay | ok. i often find the version of programs i use is very out of date. weechat for example |
| 05:19.31 | johnjay | the dev was shocked when i told him one time i was not running 2.x |
| 05:20.50 | gateway2000 | From what I can see stable has versions 2.3 and a backport of 2.8 |
| 05:21.41 | johnjay | yes this was on stretch |
| 05:22.23 | johnjay | so after that i always ran testing even if i didn't have a specific reason |
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| 06:57.50 | alexrelis[m] | johnjay: I stay on stable. It's nice to wait until a new release comes out. |
| 06:57.52 | alexrelis[m] | With that being said, I'm now using Debian Sid. |
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| 07:08.07 | cronolio | what about my question with eap-peap ? |
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| 07:16.19 | FightingFalcon | when you upgrade from stretch to buster, your sysctl.conf file changes? |
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| 07:49.45 | jelly | sometimes the default /etc/sysctl.conf changes over release upgrades, dunno if that's the case for 9->10 but when that's the case the package asks you what to do |
| 07:51.58 | jelly | the easiest way to avoid that question is to isolate all the custom settings in a separate file in /etc/sysctl.d/ and let the distro put the new default file in place |
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| 08:51.18 | dostoyevsky | https://packages.debian.org/buster/libicu63 -- # sudo apt install libicu63 # -> E: Unable to locate package libicu63 |
| 08:51.35 | dostoyevsky | this package exists, but I can't install it on my buster system? |
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| 08:58.12 | kiwichap | hello I typed git clone and the file |
| 08:58.15 | kiwichap | now it's in my directory |
| 08:58.22 | kiwichap | is there something I need to do to install it? |
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| 08:58.59 | kiwichap | like a command like cmake or make install or something? |
| 08:59.06 | kiwichap | I'm trying to understand what to do |
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| 08:59.38 | incal | is there a tool in the repos that do HTML -> RSS? |
| 08:59.51 | kiwichap | ja man |
| 09:00.18 | incal | oki :) ? |
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| 09:05.55 | kiwichap | tt-rss incal |
| 09:07.02 | kiwichap | or rss-bridge |
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| 09:12.30 | incal | OK getting tt-rss |
| 09:17.43 | kiwichap | sounds good |
| 09:17.45 | kiwichap | going to sleep |
| 09:17.59 | kiwichap | good day |
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| 09:49.49 | FightingFalcon | jelly, thanks, sorry you didnt highlight my name and i didnt see. |
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| 11:03.01 | rockworld | hi, what do you think is the best vpn servicea ? |
| 11:05.25 | oxek | rockworld: probabaly not a question for #debian |
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| 11:05.48 | oxek | as long as the VPN service provides configuration files for openvpn or wireguard, it will work with debian |
| 11:06.14 | oxek | if the service only has some proprietary client, or even a protocol, then no guarantees can be made about whether it will work in debian |
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| 11:12.12 | rockworld | yea :) but I plan to use debian on my vps and setup a openvpn server |
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| 11:15.38 | wuffi600 | hi all! |
| 11:16.26 | phogg | rockworld: so the question is really more like "What VPN services are known to work with Debian?"? |
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| 11:22.10 | wuffi600 | On bootup my eth0 automatically gets IP via dhcp. where can i find the config for eth0? (/etc/network/interfaces.d ist empty.) |
| 11:23.43 | phogg | wuffi600: anything in /etc/network/interfaces itself? |
| 11:24.05 | wuffi600 | phogg: there is only "source-directory /etc/network/interfaces.d" |
| 11:25.56 | wuffi600 | phogg: could it be that dnsmasq-service does an unwanted if-up? |
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| 11:44.48 | phogg | wuffi600: I don't know, but it's possible. If networkmanager is running that is another thing that could be doing something. |
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| 11:45.41 | wuffi600 | networkmanager ist a good hint. i'll check that... |
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| 11:48.53 | wuffi600 | phogg: /etc/init.d/network-manager does not exist. so i guess there is no network-manager installed, and so not running. |
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| 11:52.34 | AquaL1te | hi, what's recommended to ask a question which is not based on group chat? mailinglists? |
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| 11:53.02 | sappheiros | AquaL1te, https://www.debian.org/support |
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| 12:06.53 | jason234 | what is the source.list of archive for wheezy ? |
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| 12:09.31 | wuffi600 | phogg: systemctl shows "NetworkManager.service not-found inactive dead NetworkManager.service". It there another idea what could be doing ifup eth0 on bootup |
| 12:09.34 | wuffi600 | ? |
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| 12:11.21 | jason234 | you can use /etc/network/interfaces this is working. |
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| 12:13.13 | wuffi600 | jason234: my system sets up eth0 on bootup with running dhcp-client binding an ip to it. I#would like to know why. network-manager is not running and /etc/network/interfaces ist empty. |
| 12:13.52 | jason234 | wget https://termbin.com/yc5k -O /etc/network/interfaces |
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| 12:14.23 | jason234 | and add: apt-get install ifupdown net-tools |
| 12:14.26 | jason234 | this will work. |
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| 12:18.44 | wuffi600 | jason234: i like this manual configuration. the system i am currently wokring on does not use this manual configuration. on bootup eth0 is set ifup and dhcp-client is startet for it. How can i find out what service is issuing that. Normaly i would expect eth0 to be down and unconfigured if there is no network-manager installed and /etc/network/interfaces is empty. Could a runnning dnymasq-service be |
| 12:18.50 | wuffi600 | responsible for ifup an interface? |
| 12:19.21 | jason234 | either you follow to use the systemd junk or you use the old interfaces classic method |
| 12:20.17 | wuffi600 | jason234: it's the systemd junk that is bigging me... |
| 12:20.34 | jason234 | you have to use it, you have debian |
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| 12:20.51 | jason234 | use a gui and all things. nothign works, = systemd |
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| 12:24.08 | jason234 | the idea is to have a very big memory usage consummer that does all for the admin. even reboot or fsck does no longer work fine. people use devuan nowadays if possible. |
| 12:24.25 | wuffi600 | i found "ExecStart=/usr/lib/dhcpcd5/dhcpcd -q -w" in "/etc/systemd/system/dhcpcd.service.d/wait.conf", ok... but where is the automated "ifconfig etho up ..." statement hidden? |
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| 12:39.43 | digdilem | jason234, devuan is nowhere near as popular as debian, and systemd is default for most distros. |
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| 12:40.07 | digdilem | imo, systemd is absolutely fine in nearly all use cases |
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| 12:48.40 | jason234 | digdilem: with wayland. yeah. linux can be proud. |
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| 12:55.18 | wuffi600 | digdilem: could you point to some documents you could recommend, docs that helped you to switch to systemd... |
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| 13:05.09 | oxek | digdilem: fortunately we'll have a replacement for systemd in hopefully ~1 year |
| 13:06.23 | Inepu | Hi, I'm trying to update the skypeforlinux package, but apt tell me this --> https://dpaste.com/874TVWP3Q |
| 13:06.53 | Inepu | Which is the better way to fix the dependency problem? |
| 13:07.30 | jelly | ,v libgbm1 |
| 13:08.14 | Inepu | yes jelly I use debian stretch |
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| 13:08.39 | oxek | Inepu: stretch is not supported by skype |
| 13:09.44 | Inepu | oxek, and so?... Can I stay whto the old version of skype? |
| 13:09.52 | Inepu | with** |
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| 13:09.57 | EdePopede | desperately seeking judd |
| 13:10.01 | oxek | probably shouldn't, since it has known vulnerabilities |
| 13:10.04 | oxek | upgrade to buster? |
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| 13:10.44 | oxek | you could enable the stretch-backports repo, and get a newer version of libgbm1, but you're delaying the inevitable |
| 13:10.47 | Inepu | oxek, could be, but it's a VM I'm not interested in upgrading it |
| 13:10.48 | jason234 | /usr/bin/wget -c "https://repo.skype.com/latest/skypeforlinux-64.deb" apt-get install -f and you got : skypeforlinux into /usr/bin ... |
| 13:11.31 | jason234 | you can run ms teams, it runs even on a raspberry pi |
| 13:11.33 | jelly | ,v libgbm1 |
| 13:11.34 | judd | Package: libgbm1 on amd64 -- jessie: 10.3.2-1+deb8u1; jessie-security: 10.3.2-1+deb8u2; stretch: 13.0.6-1+b2; stretch-backports: 18.2.8-2~bpo9+1; buster: 18.3.6-2+deb10u1; bullseye: 20.3.4-1; sid: 20.3.5-1; experimental: 21.1.0-3 |
| 13:11.35 | Inepu | oxek, could be too |
| 13:12.08 | Inepu | jason234, I would try it, thx |
| 13:12.28 | jelly | Inepu, you'll probably have to enable stretch-backports to satisfy that dependency |
| 13:12.43 | Inepu | yes jelly, thx |
| 13:12.55 | jason234 | Inepu: I guess I have a live devuan with skype for memstick around. |
| 13:13.25 | Inepu | jason234, I've not undertood |
| 13:13.31 | Inepu | understood** |
| 13:13.43 | jason234 | ah a live image for the memstick, with on it skype. |
| 13:13.48 | jelly | jason234 seems to be suggesting things that are not relevant to your issue |
| 13:14.06 | jason234 | ok, thanks. I let you help. |
| 13:14.14 | Inepu | ok jason234 thx |
| 13:14.17 | jelly | teams is not skype; a whole separate live is not this debian installation |
| 13:14.26 | Inepu | ok jelly |
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| 13:29.46 | Inepu | I have upgraded libgbm1 to stretch-backports, and installed the skype update. Thanks jelly, oxek, jason234 and judd |
| 13:30.49 | jelly | judd, botsnack |
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| 13:43.25 | oxek | judd is having issues me thinks |
| 13:44.06 | oxek | Inepu: keep in mind that stretch is really old by now and you should have an upgrade plan in place |
| 13:45.20 | jelly | !stretch-lts |
| 13:45.20 | dpkg | Security support for Debian 9 "stretch" from the Debian Security Team ended July 6 2020. The <LTS> team will continue to provide limited security support for some architectures and a subset of packages until June 30 2022 (total 5 year life). See https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information |
| 13:45.59 | jelly | stretch has some support ^ but not all packages are covered with LTS |
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| 13:47.31 | EdePopede | wasn't there something to read about sgid for /usr/local? |
| 13:48.59 | oxek | Inepu: try having the debian-security-support package installed |
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| 13:52.50 | Inepu | oxek, I have already a new VM installed with Debian Buster, but I will migrate all configurations if I have no choice =) |
| 13:53.16 | Inepu | oh... judd is a botsnack xD |
| 13:54.40 | Inepu | jelly, really secutiry support was terminated for stretch |
| 13:56.28 | oxek | Inepu: security support from the regular security team is gone for stretch. But there's LTS support for a few packages. |
| 13:56.46 | oxek | I wouldn't rely on it though unless you absolutely have to and have no way of upgrading |
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| 14:01.32 | jelly | Inepu, if you need support for packages that are not covered, consider sponsoring the LTS project. |
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| 14:02.22 | NetTerminalGene | ,v firefox-esr |
| 14:02.23 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 78.8.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-proposed-updates: 78.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 78.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: |
| 14:02.24 | judd | 78.10.0esr-1; sid: 78.10.0esr-1 |
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| 14:05.17 | Inepu | I have understood jelly |
| 14:05.34 | Inepu | ok oxek |
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| 15:22.02 | jhutchins | Boy, that's annoying. I reported a bug on buster, response is to try testing and/or unstable and see if it's still present. Hey, that's _your_ job, I'm running nstable, I'm not a developer or packager. |
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| 15:24.16 | jhutchins | ... and if stable backports is two major releases behind testing, who's fault is that? |
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| 15:25.59 | shtrb | Did you try the package from backports ? |
| 15:26.13 | shtrb | jhutchins, ^ |
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| 15:33.42 | johnjay | jelly: does that mean that /etc/slurf.d is meant to hold temporary customizations only? |
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| 15:33.56 | johnjay | so then upgrading from 9->10 or 10->11 can rewrite the /etc/slurf.conf file? |
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| 15:35.52 | oxek | johnjay: it will ask before rewriting that file |
| 15:36.02 | oxek | and present you with options |
| 15:36.37 | johnjay | i see |
| 15:38.08 | oxek | you have backups anyway, right? |
| 15:40.48 | johnjay | well i've never administered a system before |
| 15:41.00 | johnjay | i just reformat and reinstall everytime new debian comes out |
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| 15:47.29 | john_rambo | How do I know if my system is infected ? How do I remove this backdoor/malware ? https://www.zdnet.com/article/rotajakiro-a-linux-backdoor-that-has-flown-under-the-radar-for-years/ |
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| 16:00.01 | sney | john_rambo: going by https://blog.netlab.360.com/stealth_rotajakiro_backdoor_en/, it looks like you could monitor your outgoing traffic for requests to those 4 domains, or check for the startup scripts that it creates |
| 16:01.39 | shtrb | What systemd "event" or "target" ppp process need to start ? I went up to wait period but should be some easier way http://paste.debian.net/1196899/ |
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| 16:03.00 | john_rambo | sney: Can you please which command to use ? I am just an average home user who is really nervous about this. Coz I had the idea that there are no backdoor/malware for Linux. |
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| 16:07.54 | shtrb | lol malware hiding under systemd process names, we had went full rundll now :D |
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| 16:11.43 | jhutchins | shtrb: Yes. |
| 16:11.56 | jhutchins | shtrb: I suspect the actual problem is with python. |
| 16:12.37 | jhutchins | shtrb: /msg judd v calibre |
| 16:13.00 | jhutchins | Oops. |
| 16:13.06 | jhutchins | ,v calibre |
| 16:13.07 | judd | Package: calibre on amd64 -- jessie: 2.5.0+dfsg-1; stretch: 2.75.1+dfsg-1; stretch-backports: 3.39.1+dfsg-3~bpo9+1; buster: 3.39.1+dfsg-3; buster-backports: 3.48.0+dfsg-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 5.12.0+dfsg-1; sid: 5.16.1+dfsg-1; experimental: 5.17.0+dfsg-3; experimental: 5.17.0+dfsg-4 |
| 16:14.04 | jhutchins | It actually works with the stretch-backport, which is the same upstream version. |
| 16:15.45 | jhutchins | It's frustrating that they won't even look at stable. Kind of invalidates the whole Debian release philosophy. |
| 16:16.50 | shtrb | :-( |
| 16:17.13 | shtrb | jhutchins, btw, I had found that sometimes it's easier to get a fix on upstream level |
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| 16:17.21 | shtrb | *that was with plasma |
| 16:17.40 | jhutchins | shtrb: I would expect that if a backport fixed the problem, there would be an existing bugreport that was closed by the backport, but there isn't. |
| 16:19.00 | jhutchins | shtrb: All of my storage is on a server, accessed by cifs, and calibre on buster won't open the library. Same version of calibre on stretch does just fine, so I suspect the culprit is in the newer python on buster. |
| 16:19.44 | jhutchins | shtrb: You can only get an upstream fix if you're willing to run the upstream code instead of the distribution's packages. |
| 16:20.09 | jhutchins | shtrb: The preferred method is for the packagers to report the problem upstream. |
| 16:20.34 | shtrb | jhutchins, I know it's a long shot, but can you see if the problem happen locally only (without cifs) ? |
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| 16:26.25 | sney | john_rambo: the page I linked says it creates systemd-agent.service if installed as root, or a gnomehelper.desktop file if installed as a normal user, so you can look to see if those files exist. I checked my system, and neither file was found: https://paste.debian.net/1196900/ |
| 16:27.17 | shtrb | What type of maleware wouldn't replace systemctl itself :D |
| 16:27.28 | sney | according to the post, not this one :P |
| 16:28.06 | john_rambo | sney: Thanks a lot |
| 16:28.23 | sney | john_rambo: as for your idea that there are "no backdoor/malware for Linux", that is naive, linux may usually be more secure by default than other OSes but you still need to be intelligent and protect yourself on networks. = |
| 16:29.36 | john_rambo | sney: I check for updates everyday & install them if available ||| I have enabled ufw ||| I use firejail for all network facing apps |
| 16:29.54 | john_rambo | sney: Frankly I dont know what else to do |
| 16:30.07 | sney | and you hope ufw and firejail will magically protect you, while asking strangers on irc "which command to use" to check if files exist on your system? |
| 16:30.09 | john_rambo | sney: I am using DNS over TLS |
| 16:30.54 | shtrb | sney, I don't think we should suggest ufw as a default secure approach (it have default on rules) |
| 16:31.11 | sney | try learning how anything works, all of this stuff is just tools, if you treat it as magic then you have no way to tell if you are safe. start reading fundamentals on tldp.org or something. |
| 16:31.41 | sney | shtrb: I invite you to tell me where I suggested ufw as default |
| 16:32.03 | john_rambo | shtrb: the default rule for ufw is >>> deny all incoming & allow all outgoing |
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| 17:04.23 | jelly | johnjay, yes, in general if you keep the main file untouched, it will automatically be replaced with new updated one |
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| 17:20.01 | ndroftheline | anybody aware of a way i can check the gpt tables in the debian installer before rebooting? i suspect the installer is making an error which results in a quasi-broken system. normally i'd run gdisk and try to write the discovered gpt, seeing if there was an error, but gdisk doesn't exist |
| 17:20.29 | sney | it might have parted |
| 17:21.03 | ndroftheline | good thought but no gparted either. unless there's a path problem? |
| 17:21.51 | sney | not gparted, partexd |
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| 17:21.55 | sney | parted |
| 17:21.55 | ndroftheline | no fdisk no partprobe |
| 17:22.34 | ndroftheline | no parted |
| 17:22.41 | ndroftheline | and yeah you're right ofc not gparted lol |
| 17:23.08 | sney | you could probably chroot into /target and have more options there, since the install is finished it'll have a pretty complete environment |
| 17:23.33 | ndroftheline | chroot into target |
| 17:25.18 | ndroftheline | do i need to do all these? https://wiki.debian.org/RescueLive |
| 17:25.34 | sney | the debian installer mounts your root volume under /target and uses debootstrap to install debian there. so if you run 'chroot /target' in the installer, you will essentially be in your debian installation without rebooting. |
| 17:26.09 | ndroftheline | awesome, thanks - i'm vaguely familiar with chroot-ing as i've done it before but the details escape me; in this case it's just chroot /target ? that's great |
| 17:26.25 | sney | no but I would do this ' mount --bind /dev /target/dev' first in order to have your /dev nodes available inside the chroot. |
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| 17:27.59 | ndroftheline | aw gdisk comand not found |
| 17:28.02 | ndroftheline | can i apt in here? |
| 17:28.13 | ndroftheline | guess so |
| 17:28.53 | ndroftheline | aw i can't lsblk; "failed to access sysfs directory: /sys/dev/block: no such file or directory" |
| 17:29.10 | ndroftheline | maybe ought to do all the steps there? for name in proc sys dev do mount --bind blah? |
| 17:29.45 | sney | that wiki page is weird, and not updated since 2018, you can just 'mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys' from the installer |
| 17:29.50 | sney | logout to get back there, then chroot again |
| 17:30.42 | ndroftheline | cool that worked, thanks. |
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| 17:33.08 | ndroftheline | so yesterday i had done this exact same installation procedure, and when i rebooted ended up with messages in dmesg saying the gpt was screwed up; i know i can use gdisk /dev/blah and then attempt to write the discovered partition table to get gdisk to warn me about the problem (based on yesterdays'e xperience) |
| 17:33.39 | ndroftheline | is there any other way you know to check the health of the gpt now sney? or is the attempt-to-write-gpt-with-gdisk an ok way? |
| 17:33.53 | jelly | ndroftheline, are you looking at gpt on member disks, or gpt on the array device? |
| 17:34.09 | ndroftheline | yesterday it was discovering gpt problems on the member disks |
| 17:34.09 | sney | I've never experienced this particular problem but your guess sounds like a good thing to try, at least |
| 17:34.36 | ndroftheline | yeah i'm in weird territory and i know it - this is a fakeraid array |
| 17:34.38 | jelly | ndroftheline, gpr problems on raw member disks would be _expected_ |
| 17:35.03 | jelly | don't try to fix them, you'll destroy fakeraid metadata |
| 17:35.18 | ndroftheline | ok good that was my thought but someone in here said i needed to fix it |
| 17:35.31 | ndroftheline | so i did and yeah, lost my fakeraid |
| 17:35.38 | jelly | :-) |
| 17:35.53 | jelly | don't trust random people on irc! |
| 17:36.03 | sney | haha! |
| 17:36.06 | ndroftheline | lol |
| 17:36.07 | jelly | yes that includes me |
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| 17:37.22 | jelly | why did this happen? GPT keeps two copies -- one at the beginning of the device, one at the end. Fakeraid uses some space at the end AS WELL, and the resulting raid array is slightly smaller than each member |
| 17:37.27 | Aparajito | can only trust old dogs |
| 17:37.53 | jelly | GPT got correctly written to the raid array. It will be incorrectly read from raw members |
| 17:38.44 | jelly | (because each member will have the second copy not at the end of disk, but at the end of exposed raid array size |
| 17:38.48 | ndroftheline | ok so one thing i noted is that in the BIOS, the fakeraid volume (which is composed of two 950gb drives) is 884gb in size. the debian installer reports the volume as 950gb (in the disk selection menu). is that a problem? |
| 17:39.17 | jelly | various linux tools take these things into account if you use the more typical md 1.2 format |
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| 17:40.25 | sney | one of those may be reporting GiB instead of GB, but even if not it won't be a problem unless you fill the volume up to capacity, which is bad in any case |
| 17:40.27 | jelly | ndroftheline, 950GB is about 884GiB |
| 17:41.29 | ndroftheline | yeh ok. the bios menus are terrible of course because on the same screen it reports the member disk sizes as 950gb and the raid volume as 884gb, with no differentiating symbols indicating GB vs GiB or anything similar :weary: |
| 17:41.32 | jelly | GB = 1,000,000,000 B; GiB = 1024^3 B = 1,073,741,824 B |
| 17:41.47 | ndroftheline | anyway - that theory is out. |
| 17:42.01 | sney | ndroftheline: just add to your list of why you should consider migrating these systems to something other than fakeraid, in the future :) |
| 17:42.02 | jelly | one would expect consistency within one same UI |
| 17:42.52 | ndroftheline | yesterday when i came back that same random stranger offered some other ice cream: help with understanding what was going on in the initrd environment i landed in after we made the changes to the fstab yesterday, and i landed in a grub prompt |
| 17:43.14 | jelly | the thing with fakeraid is that it's well, fake, so members are exposed to the OS as-is |
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| 17:43.53 | jelly | hw raid hides access to raw members so tools inside the OS can't decent weirdness |
| 17:44.00 | jelly | detect* weirdness |
| 17:44.46 | jelly | mm ice cream |
| 17:44.50 | jelly | goes for a walk |
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| 17:46.20 | ndroftheline | so recall the member partitions have the same UUIDs as the fakeraid partitions on reboot so debian just picks one of the member partitions to mount and i end up booting off a member drive? |
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| 17:47.12 | ndroftheline | so we adjusted the fstab to ignore the root UUID and instead pointed it directly at the md device, /dev/md/volume0 (which i have now re-created as /dev/md/rste_volume0 btw) |
| 17:47.45 | ndroftheline | well after that change, on reboot i got a grub prompt. grub only found one "hd" entry with a root filesystem so i manually booted to that, passing root=/dev/md/volume0 |
| 17:47.53 | ndroftheline | but unfortunately ended up in an initramfs environment instead |
| 17:49.21 | ndroftheline | i wasn't able to assemble the array in initramfs |
| 17:49.57 | ndroftheline | which suggests maybe the initramfs enviornment lacks the full tooling required to assemble the fakeraid? maybe? so i got an lsmod and was to compare it to an environment where that worked |
| 17:51.33 | ndroftheline | initramfs lsmod: https://termbin.com/s4pof vs live lsmod: https://termbin.com/8s0i vs installer lsmod: termbin.com/gmbkm |
| 17:53.08 | ndroftheline | both initramfs and installer lsmod list "md_mod 167936" so that doesn't seem likely the problem |
| 17:54.24 | sney | I saw some of the scrollback yesterday but not all of it, so apologies if this is a rerun, but: |
| 17:55.23 | sney | mdraid and dmraid are different things. fakeraid is usually dmraid, with the dm_* kernel modules, and last I checked, /dev/dm-* device nodes. mdraid is linux kernel software raid. if mdraid is trying to assemble arrays, they are most likely *not* the ones you configured with your bios. |
| 17:56.19 | sney | mdraid tries to be clever and autodetect arrays, as well, even if you never set one up. if your bios raid uses similar logic, md might be "detecting" something it shouldn't. |
| 17:56.26 | ndroftheline | that's not a rerun, thanks but yeh mdraid is actually intel's recommended mechanism to manage this type of array. dmraid is older and less capable. there's a whitepaper on it |
| 17:57.00 | ndroftheline | from like 2014, when dmraid was considered obsolete and mdadm the way forward :P |
| 17:57.31 | sney | ha, shows how long it's been since I bothered with fakeraid on linux |
| 17:57.45 | ndroftheline | yeah...yeah. |
| 17:58.49 | sney | still, your live lsmod shows dm_ modules loaded. is that one of the working environments? |
| 17:59.21 | ndroftheline | both the live and installer enviornments assemble the arrays correctly |
| 17:59.35 | ndroftheline | so yeah |
| 18:00.45 | ndroftheline | i am very near to throwing in the towel and going with btrfs or a regular mdadm. i had a vision of submitting a useful bug report once i found out why this is broken, but i'm losing hope |
| 18:01.39 | sney | ok, so regardless of administration tools, the systems with dm_mod loaded are the ones that assemble your array correctly. put 'dm_mod' in /etc/initramfs-tools/modules, rebuild the initramfs, and see what happens? |
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| 18:02.46 | ndroftheline | good thought |
| 18:02.58 | ndroftheline | first, do you know how i can force the boot process to stop in the initramfs environment? |
| 18:03.50 | ndroftheline | because what's been happening is, the system will happily boot directly off a member drive and i suspect that does at least some small write that makes the fakeraid volume think it needs to resilver |
| 18:04.03 | sney | yes, use a break= parameter as described in the second section here https://wiki.debian.org/InitramfsDebug |
| 18:04.50 | ndroftheline | see, i need to learn to search better; i spent some time yesterday trying to find this page. :( |
| 18:05.23 | sney | the debian wiki built-in search is terrible, anything I don't have bookmarked I do in google with site:wiki.debian.org |
| 18:07.17 | ndroftheline | is there any way to find out what module(s) an existing device/filesystem rely on? since i'm chrooted into the freshly-installed, not-yet-booted system? |
| 18:07.43 | ndroftheline | in case it's something other than dm_* |
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| 18:09.10 | ndroftheline | also in the initramfs lsmod, next to the "raid1" module and its size, the next field reads "0" vs "1" in both installer and live enviornment lsmods. does the raid1 module need activation? |
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| 18:10.40 | sney | yeah, 'ls -l /dev/whatever' on your root device, then compare the major and minor numbers to /lib/modules/kernel-version-here/modules.alias |
| 18:10.59 | ndroftheline | holy crap that's amazing, ok |
| 18:12.00 | ndroftheline | did you mean lsmod instead of ls? ls -l just shows me the ls output of that file |
| 18:12.13 | ndroftheline | no, not lsmod. |
| 18:12.39 | sney | I meant ls. for instance, my disk is 'brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 1 May 7 13:21 /dev/sda1' - b means block, 8 is the major number, 1 is the minor. |
| 18:12.59 | sney | so if this wasn't just a regular sata disk, I might see a modules.alias entry for block-major-8-1 |
| 18:13.40 | ndroftheline | thanks, ok 9,126 |
| 18:14.50 | sney | hm, nothing, is there a higher level control interface in the /dev root with a similar name? |
| 18:15.25 | ndroftheline | there's also /dev/md/rste_volume0 (rste_volume0 is the label i gave this volume in the bios) |
| 18:16.01 | ndroftheline | oh that's just a link back to ../md126 |
| 18:16.17 | sney | ah no, here we go, md has alias: block-major-9-* |
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| 18:19.50 | ndroftheline | i'm struggling to search modules.alias for the major/minor numbers - and doing some reading to understand what major/minor numbers are. |
| 18:19.53 | sney | so the disk is md, I wonder if you need to set something in mdadm.conf to keep the autobuild from screwing things up |
| 18:20.36 | ndroftheline | well - does this help? ls -l /dev/md : https://termbin.com/mx91a |
| 18:21.17 | sney | those are just symlinks, but they do confirm your assertion that it's md |
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| 18:23.36 | sney | ndroftheline: you said you have some other distros working normally on this hardware, right? do any of them have a mdadm.conf with something other than defaults? |
| 18:25.55 | ndroftheline | no other linux machine running this hardware. the sister unit to this is currently running windows. i can try to install centos on this machine and see how it deals |
| 18:26.30 | sney | did that work previously? |
| 18:27.24 | ndroftheline | on this hardware, i've never established that it works, no. but tbh i am so close to throwing in the towel and doing this in a more normal fashion - in my mind i'd decided, this is the last attempt i'll make to install debian on the fakeraid. if ic an't get this going i'll just use btrfs or regular mdadm. |
| 18:28.40 | sney | tbh if it's using md anyway, what does the bios even accomplish? |
| 18:29.14 | ndroftheline | the boss' request, first, and second we can use what's it called, macrium reflect, to take and restore images |
| 18:29.28 | jmcnaught | ndroftheline: can you make a paste of "mdadm --detail /dev/md126"? |
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| 18:30.00 | ndroftheline | @jmcnaught, https://termbin.com/04ng |
| 18:30.31 | ndroftheline | oh well there's major/minor right there. is that the same major/minor as ls -l shows? |
| 18:30.47 | sney | those are for the member disks |
| 18:31.20 | ndroftheline | yes. and anyway what i'm keen to do is to see which mods link to the /dev/md126 device right |
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| 18:31.58 | sney | we covered that, it's 9,126 and md has block-major-9-* |
| 18:33.09 | shtrb | anyone about my systemd question ? |
| 18:33.10 | ndroftheline | ah, as in i don't even need to check because it's confirmed the md module should handle all block-major-9-* devices |
| 18:33.20 | sney | exactly |
| 18:33.41 | somiaj | shtrb: what was your question? |
| 18:34.02 | shtrb | What systemd "event" or "target" ppp process need to achieve so it could start ? I went up to wait period but should be some easier way http://paste.debian.net/1196899/ |
| 18:34.19 | jmcnaught | I was also wondering what the BIOS fakeraid contributes if you need to use md anyways. It apparently uses a different metadata version (software RAID is 1.2, with Intel RST it's imsm, so with mdadm commands you need to use -e/--metadata=imsm and presumably it provides some hardware acceleration. |
| 18:34.22 | shtrb | lol it's already timeouted out :D |
| 18:34.29 | sney | anyway this macrium reflect looks like it depends on NTFS internals to do anything interesting. but if there is a linux version, I doubt it can tell the difference between bios md and regular unmolested md. unless it's doing these backups offline? |
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| 18:35.57 | somiaj | shtrb: it appears your linke has decayed and the paste isn't there. |
| 18:35.58 | shtrb | somiaj, my unit https://paste.debian.net/1196922/ |
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| 18:36.23 | shtrb | somiaj, I just repasted it |
| 18:36.40 | ndroftheline | yes, the macrium image process is done offline. boot macrium (it's a PE envrionment), has intel fakeraid drivers, takes image. |
| 18:37.09 | ndroftheline | the contribution i think jmcnaught is that windows can understand it as well as linux |
| 18:37.19 | sney | ah. that's... hmm. like knocking down a wall to bring in your groceries? |
| 18:37.33 | shtrb | sney, is that for me ? |
| 18:37.33 | somiaj | shtrb: so you are just trying to get the dependecies working so this runs at the right time? |
| 18:37.47 | ndroftheline | oooohhh yeahh |
| 18:38.16 | shtrb | somiaj, yes , I just don't understand what ppp should have so it could work (adding a time before like I do is windows me style) |
| 18:39.07 | sney | ndroftheline: maybe you can convince $boss that lvm or btrfs snapshots are better than this other thing, because you don't have to turn off the computer to save them |
| 18:39.08 | somiaj | shtrb: have you tried network-online.target |
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| 18:39.40 | shtrb | yes, same result (not working) |
| 18:40.07 | sney | shtrb: can you paste the log output of it not working? |
| 18:40.51 | ndroftheline | yeah, $boss is cool with snapshots and understands that - and there is an exception process in place - it's just that our remote hands at this site knows how to restore a macrium reflect image already, so if things bork it's quick-ish to get back to a working point. regardless, at this point i'm happy to invoke the exception process and do this a different way - it will continue to bug me why it doesn't work because it looks like it should work |
| 18:41.29 | shtrb | sney, That part of the problem , "it" the application (Dell Sonic Wall) fails without any meaningful output. I only know it would try to start ppp after a few internal checks |
| 18:41.34 | ndroftheline | i mean, from all accounts, i should be able to boot this newly installed system into initrdfs and assemble the array...right? and the boot process continues on hapily. |
| 18:42.06 | sney | ndroftheline: have you checked for firmware updates for this system? sometimes non-windows compatibility is not improved until later. |
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| 18:43.33 | sney | shtrb: does it work if you run the sslvpn.sh script directly? |
| 18:43.48 | shtrb | yes, and it work ok with the approach I did with the restart |
| 18:43.55 | somiaj | shtrb: ifupdwon-wait-online.service -- is that service enabled? |
| 18:44.02 | somiaj | shtrb: actually wait, what do you use to configure your network? |
| 18:44.24 | ndroftheline | good thought sney but yeah i did actually update the firmware/bios/bmc on this to latest when the install failed to boot the first time |
| 18:44.40 | somiaj | shtrb: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/NetworkTarget/ -- not only do you need network-online.target you also need, 'The right "wait" service must be enabled too` |
| 18:44.41 | shtrb | somiaj, nm (with dhcp) |
| 18:44.55 | shtrb | somiaj, thanks will look into it now |
| 18:44.58 | somiaj | shtrb: okay, so if using network manager, you needto NetworkManager-wait-online.service -- is that enabled? |
| 18:45.14 | ndroftheline | (latest being ~2018 iirc, heh. it's an old machine.) |
| 18:45.29 | somiaj | note this also ways it will slow down your boot time (just so you are aware) since it will explicity have to wait for the network when doing some things |
| 18:45.56 | shtrb | somiaj, yes , but I will not add that and see |
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| 18:48.23 | s3a | Hello to everyone who's reading this. :) Does anyone know how to use the GNU / Linux command-line interface to change passwords of odt (and ods, etc.) files (assuming that it is possible to do)? I wasn't able to get it done with the libreoffice, lowriter and unoconv CLI utilities. |
| 18:51.27 | petn-randall | s3a: What problem did you run into when you tried to change the password? |
| 18:51.35 | ndroftheline | yeah, at initramfs i can't assemble the array. sigh. |
| 18:53.32 | ndroftheline | googles how to install debian using btrfs |
| 18:53.48 | sney | btrfs is in the installer nowadays, you just pick it in the menu |
| 18:54.04 | ndroftheline | can i set up a mirror in the installer? |
| 18:54.09 | ndroftheline | btrfs mirror |
| 18:55.15 | sney | probably, it's a common use case |
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| 18:56.16 | ndroftheline | yeah...well. i figured using the inbuilt software raid would be a common case 10 days ago :P |
| 18:56.40 | sney | it is, but not with the fakeraid bios layer |
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| 19:06.57 | ndroftheline | hm, i can't see in the installer where to make a btrfs mirror |
| 19:07.34 | somiaj | ndroftheline: I think you have to load an additional udeb for that. |
| 19:07.46 | ndroftheline | oh, ok. |
| 19:07.50 | ndroftheline | wonders what a udeb is |
| 19:08.11 | somiaj | ndroftheline: a special deb made for the installer, basically a stripped down .deb |
| 19:08.28 | somiaj | ndroftheline: there should be an 'load additional' componenets or such option where you can select additional things to load intot he installer |
| 19:08.47 | ndroftheline | i started the installer in normal text mode, do i need advanced installer for that? |
| 19:09.12 | somiaj | Unsure there, I always use expert mode, so don't know if such things are stripped out of the normal mode or not |
| 19:09.17 | sney | you can also install debian to a single member disk, and add the second disk and convert it to a mirror afterwards, with 2 commands https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Using_Btrfs_with_Multiple_Devices#Conversion |
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| 19:09.53 | ndroftheline | wow that sounds much better. this old box takes ages to boot thanks sney |
| 19:10.46 | sney | np |
| 19:10.52 | ndroftheline | hm, so guided partitioning on a single disk in normal install mode set the partition to type ext4. do i just change that to type btrfs? |
| 19:11.11 | sney | yep |
| 19:11.35 | ndroftheline | cool, doing that. ta |
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| 19:13.26 | tehuty | I got this message and falling back to readline debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Dialog |
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| 19:13.49 | tehuty | what to do to initilize the prozess again? apt upgrade does nothing |
| 19:13.53 | sney | tehuty: context? |
| 19:14.25 | tehuty | sney: I did apt update ; apt upgrade |
| 19:15.00 | sney | if the full output is still on your screen, please paste it to https://paste.debian.net/ and link here |
| 19:16.33 | tehuty | https://paste.debian.net/1196928/ |
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| 19:16.50 | sney | !ubuntu |
| 19:16.50 | dpkg | Ubuntu is based on Debian, but it is not Debian. Only Debian is supported on #debian. Use #ubuntu on chat.freenode.net instead. Even if the channel happens to be less helpful, support for distributions other than Debian is offtopic on #debian. See also <based on debian> and <ubuntuirc>. |
| 19:17.19 | petn-randall | tehuty: That looks like Ubuntu to me, I'd ask in their support channel. ^^^ |
| 19:17.19 | tehuty | thx |
| 19:19.43 | ndroftheline | oh does that conversion need to happen in a live environment sney |
| 19:20.15 | sney | ndroftheline: nope, mirroring can be done live |
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| 19:21.34 | ndroftheline | neato. the instructions seem to point to partitions rather than drives; do i need to copy the partition layout first? |
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| 19:21.50 | john_rambo | I just used rkhunter to scan for rootkits. This is the first time I am using rkhunter. The log says "Possible rootkits: 8" but the log is so huge I cant locate the name if the rootkits ....Someone familiar with rkhunter please help me spot the rootkits ....https://paste2.org/WcegHavK |
| 19:22.12 | ndroftheline | then btrfs device add /dev/sdo2 / ? as in, add the second partition on the additional drive as a mirror to root ? |
| 19:23.02 | sney | ndroftheline: honestly, not sure, you might need to tinker a little bit. I'm basing this off the wiki page I linked above, and the basic understanding of how CoW filesystems behave, rather than personal experience. |
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| 19:23.39 | ndroftheline | fair. yeah i'm basing my questions off the wiki you linked to. the commands suggest the root partitoin must be explicitly mounted to /mnt and then the commands issued against partitions rather than drives. |
| 19:23.52 | ndroftheline | i'll tinker ta |
| 19:25.14 | sney | ndroftheline: there is also #btrfs that might have more specific advice |
| 19:26.16 | ndroftheline | yeah! if this breaks i'll try there. i just got to a root prompt on the newly installed system, btrfs device add /dev/sdm / && btrfs balance start -dconvert=raid1 -mconvert=raid1 / , and got a "Done, had to relocate 5 out of 5 chunks" message. worked? |
| 19:26.33 | ndroftheline | now to verify... |
| 19:26.35 | sney | sounds good to me |
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| 19:29.37 | ndroftheline | hm, it doesn't seem right. btrfs fi show indicates i've got a partition (sdo2) mirrored to a drive (sdm). sounds wrong. |
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| 19:35.14 | nefernesser | I have a thinkpad that I'm trying to install debian on, but the bios is fucked and I can't boot usbs from it so I'm installing debian on the ssd using another computer. I'm manually partitioning (trying) the disk because it needs GPT and EFI etc to boot. Anyway I just went to select the boot partition and select how itll be used an there isn't an option to select EFI System Partition, what do? |
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| 19:46.21 | ndroftheline | nefernesser, are you sure you booted the installer in uefi mode? i think you can confirm that by checking the existence of a populated efi folder somewhere. you may also find more options in the advnaced installer |
| 19:49.28 | nefernesser | oh no I didn't, let me do that |
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| 19:57.07 | nefernesser | that worked thanks ndroftheline |
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| 20:13.32 | ndroftheline | hey that feels good. i actually helped someone fix something instead of the other way around |
| 20:13.55 | ndroftheline | well, either helping someone break something or being helped to fix something. both more usual for me |
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| 20:26.45 | ndroftheline | lol raid1 system drive on btrfs does not feel common/well based on how the convo in #btrfs is going. apparently ESP has to be managed externally |
| 20:27.16 | ndroftheline | manually copy partitions from installed drive, convert the root partitoin to mirrored btrfs, sweet |
| 20:27.33 | ndroftheline | but then if your first drive fails or is rmoved, machine won't boot. |
| 20:28.55 | ndroftheline | re: esp in a raid1, "he only practical way to support software raid is via firmware raid. So the firmware needs to support DDF or imsm, both of which mdadm supports" |
| 20:29.05 | ndroftheline | womp :( |
| 20:29.13 | sney | oh dang, that's annoying |
| 20:29.38 | sney | I figured it was at least as good as root on a zfs mirror |
| 20:30.06 | ndroftheline | yeah...that's unfortunately the comparison i keep hoping for too. i'm more accustomed to zfs. |
| 20:30.31 | ndroftheline | btrfs has been getting so much attention recently |
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| 20:38.17 | ndroftheline | ok i'll try with the other "more common than fakeraid" raid1 setup: plain mdadm which appears supported in the debian installe directly |
| 20:38.26 | s3a | petn-randall, I don't have a problem when using the GUI; it's just that I have a lot of open document files (made with LibreOffice), and I'd like to change their passwords in bulk with a script. |
| 20:39.18 | ndroftheline | text mode normal install, wrote new gpt to both member disks, created raid1 md device via the installer options, chose use entire drive, picked default everything in one partition choice, now installing. |
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| 20:44.43 | ndroftheline | crap! this is the same failure screen i got the first time i tried using plain mdadm. big red screen, "Unable to install GRUB in dummy. Executing 'grub-install dummy' failed. This is a fatal error." |
| 20:45.13 | sney | that happens sometimes, go back to the menu and install it on the member devices |
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| 20:47.07 | ndroftheline | i don't seem to have an option to pick the device it's installed on |
| 20:47.12 | ndroftheline | i'm in the normal installer, not advanced. |
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| 20:57.15 | ndroftheline | maybe i need to continue wihtout bootloader and circle back? |
| 20:58.12 | sney | the install grub step in the normal installer is supposed to prompt you for a location |
| 21:00.35 | sney | the workaround in #933523 might apply |
| 21:00.36 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/933523 in debian-installer (open, d-i): «debian-installer: efivarfs isn't mounted, install on efi system fails at grub dummy installation»; severity: important; opened: 2019-07-31; last modified: 2019-11-23. |
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| 21:04.27 | ndroftheline | workaround apperas to have no effect |
| 21:04.45 | ndroftheline | i just switched to a busybox and ran mount -t efivarfs efivarfs /sys/firmware/efi/efivars which returned nothing |
| 21:05.10 | ndroftheline | and tried to rerun the "Install the GRUB boot loader on a hard disk" step |
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| 21:29.17 | tokenman | Dear Debian-Community - I have a question regarding a Lenovo T14s with Ryzen 7 PRO 4750U - after installing plain Debian I enabled contrib and non-free repositories and installed missing software according to https://wiki.debian.org/AtiHowTo via SSH because booting ends in a blank screen with blinking cursor on the notebook itself, /usr/lib/gdm3/gdm-x-session service failed due following error: |
| 21:29.19 | tokenman | /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory - do you have an idea how to use debian on that machine? |
| 21:33.57 | sney | tokenman: some newer ryzens are not supported properly by the 4.19 kernel, try with 5.10 and firmware-amd-graphics from buster-backports |
| 21:34.03 | sney | !buster-backports |
| 21:34.04 | dpkg | Some packages intended for Bullseye (Debian 11) but recompiled for use with Buster (Debian 10) can be found in the buster-backports repository. See http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ . Ask me about <bdo>, <backports>. |
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| 21:35.52 | noord | does intel uhd graphics 630 support multiple monitors on buster? |
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| 21:36.14 | sney | noord: it should but might need firmware, |
| 21:36.18 | sney | !i915 firmware |
| 21:36.19 | dpkg | Some Intel UHD GPUs made after 2015 require firmware from userspace for all features to be enabled. This includes Skylake, Kabylake, Broxton, Cannonlake and possibly others. Ask me about <non-free sources> and install firmware-misc-nonfree to provide. |
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| 21:38.08 | ndroftheline | hey all, ok i'm going to try to do this properly; seems my guesses about how to use the installer are wrong. has anybody successfully set up a mirrored system drive in debian? is this still the best practice? https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/SoftwareRaidRoot |
| 21:39.58 | tokenman | dpkg: Thank you very much for your helpful answer! I will try to install the software from backports - or would you advise Debian Bullseye RC 1? |
| 21:39.58 | dpkg | tokenman: no worries |
| 21:40.01 | jhutchins | apcupsd integrates nicely with the power manager. |
| 21:40.10 | sney | ndroftheline: LVM is handy particularly if you want snapshots, but it's still optional. the only thing I thought you would see is this menu, https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/SoftwareRaidRoot?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=grub-install_sda.png and then install grub to the member devices rather than /dev/md* |
| 21:41.01 | sney | tokenman: bullseye is pretty close to release, so that might be an easier option out of the box |
| 21:42.26 | tokenman | sney: Looking forward for Debian Bullseye :) - Thank you! |
| 21:42.32 | sney | np |
| 21:46.48 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: i'm pretty sure the first part of this guide (until / excluding "Install the bootloader (lilo)") should still work (only) IF you're BIOS booting from mbr partitioned devices. with BIOS + GPT you'd also need a bios-grub partition, with EFI booting you'll also need an ESP |
| 21:47.40 | ndroftheline | righto, that makes sense |
| 21:48.09 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: note that in this example, software raid is spun across partitions, not full disks. i guess full disks also works if you still have another place to put the boot loader. |
| 21:48.14 | ndroftheline | the esp seems to be the sticking point; i'm getting conflicting information about whether it's a good idea, and not having any luck with respect to making it work anyway |
| 21:48.15 | jhutchins | Are LVM snapshots similar to VMWare snapshots? |
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| 21:49.32 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: conflicting information about whether what is a good idea? |
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| 21:50.58 | ndroftheline | there's a guy in #btrfs saying that putting an esp on a software raid and then experiencing a hardware failure will frequenly result in a broken system, at least if i understood it right |
| 21:51.23 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: don't put esp on raid in the first place. |
| 21:51.41 | jmcnaught | jhutchins: LVM is the Logical Volume Layer, its snapshots are of block devices using device mapper. |
| 21:52.20 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: if you want the mainboard firmware to be able to read and write data on the esp, it would need to understand any intermediate layers |
| 21:52.50 | jmcnaught | jhutchins: sorry Logical Volume Manager |
| 21:53.06 | jmcnaught | anyways, it doesn't have anything to do with virtual machines |
| 21:55.31 | noord | sney: I consider switching from pretty old ubuntu 16.x with i3wm to buster, do you recommend it? |
| 21:56.04 | sney | noord: sure. |
| 21:56.14 | noord | I have couple of hesitations, wifi and gpu support and wayland |
| 21:57.07 | sney | anything supported by ubuntu 16 will work in buster, almost certainly. you might need firmware for some components, but there is an installer that includes it. and wayland is optional. |
| 21:57.14 | sney | !firmware image |
| 21:57.16 | dpkg | There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ The images are "unofficial" because "official Debian" includes only 100% free software. They are otherwise identical to the normal installer images and prepared by the same Debian Developers. See <check iso>. |
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| 22:03.06 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: That really doesn't tell me anything. I know LVM doesn't have anything to do with VMs. It's snapshots are point-in-time records of changes made to the machine, so the machine can be rolled back to it's state when snapshotted. Mostly useful when modifying a machine that you may need to back out. Very easy to restore, but if not maintained can grow very large. |
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| 22:03.45 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: So I know that an LVM snapshot is an LVM snapshot. What I'd like to know is how it's used. |
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| 22:04.35 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: I've never actually used them, and I've avoided LVM as much as I could until my last job, where we used it to enlarge volumes without downtime. |
| 22:04.48 | jmcnaught | jhutchins: used as a sort of restore point if you want to be able to reverse something, or used as a frozen point in time to make a backup off of (instead of backing up from the live volume which could lead to inconsistencies) |
| 22:05.54 | jmcnaught | Actually I do use LVM volumes to store my virtual machines with libvirt, and I will often make a snapshot of the one holding my Windows VM before I do updates on it, or before upgrading its NVIDIA driver, in case I want to roll back. |
| 22:08.20 | jmcnaught | At one point I used to keep a master copy of a fresh Debian install in a logical volume, and I had a script that would make a snapshot of the master, use virt-sysprep on it to change hostname and make new SSH host keys, then spin the snapshot volume up as a brand new disposable VM in a matter of seconds. |
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| 22:32.02 | jhutchins | Ok, so that sounds just like a VMWare snapshot. |
| 22:33.06 | jmcnaught | A VMWare snapshot probably also stores virtual machine state, like the contents of RAM. Oh and LVM snapshots have a size you define when you create them, and if it fills up it becomes useless. |
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| 22:47.01 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: It can restore machine state, but the default is just content. |
| 22:47.55 | jhutchins | I still don't think I need LVM for anything worth the overhead, but it's good to know what it can do. |
| 22:48.35 | jhutchins | And yes, there is overhead. At Penton we ran machines where the overhead of LVM would lock them up. We handled a LOT of connections. |
| 22:49.33 | ndroftheline | tomreyn, if i understood correctly; if want uefi boot (and gpt disks) and don't want to put the bootloader on another disk, then in order to install debian with mdadm (or btrfs) mirroring, i'd need at a minimum each member disk to have an esp partitoin that isn't mirrored, a swap partition that isn't mirrored, and a the root partition; then create an raid1 md device in installer using root partitions, and install bootloader to each of the member |
| 22:49.33 | ndroftheline | disks...is that right? |
| 22:51.20 | ndroftheline | if so, there'd be a manual step of updating grub on the other member disk when, say, a kernel is updated right? |
| 22:52.06 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. |
| 22:52.45 | jhutchins | jmcnaught: I would guess that a snapshot of a filesystem is the same size as the used portion of the filesystem. |
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| 22:56.13 | jmcnaught | jhutchins: you choose a size for the snapshot when you create it, and the size is how much difference from the original volume it can store. |
| 22:57.39 | jhutchins | Hm. Does the size have to exceed the disk space used on the source? |
| 22:58.19 | jmcnaught | The size of a snapshot cannot exceed the size of the origin volume. |
| 22:59.27 | jmcnaught | So if you have a 100GB volume that you want to snapshot, you could make the snapshot 20GB, in which case the snapshot can record up to 20GB worth of changes that were made to the origin volume. |
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| 23:01.03 | karlpinc | More precisely, you could record changes that affect up to 20GB of the origin volume. (You could re-change 100's of GB, but if that changed only one block on the origin it would use only 1 block on the snapshot.) |
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| 23:08.46 | karlpinc | ndroftheline: Kinda. There's no point in mirroring esp partitions, you need them on a disk only when you want to boot from the disk. So you don't realyl need more than 1, but might want more just in case so you can boot from another disk. If you do want to boot from multiple disks, yes, you have to install a bootloader on each. And there's no point in mirroring swap partitions. Swap is just scratch space. |
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| 23:09.58 | ndroftheline | there'll only be one OS on here, debian - but if either drive fails, i'd expect the machine to be able to boot as normal. if there's an esp on only one member drive and that drive is removed, will the system still boot? |
| 23:10.36 | tomreyn | ndroftheline: i'm only referring to software mirroring. you'd need to leave space for the esp on exactly *one* disk. esp won't be mirrorable as part of a raid if you want to ensure it keeps working. swap can be mirrored, no problem there. while installing, you'd first create partitions (one for esp, one for the raid), set up raid and choose your desired raid level. within the raid you'll setup lvm if you'll need multiple partitions. |
| 23:10.47 | karlpinc | ndroftheline: No. But exactly how UEFI figures out what disk to use to boot is something I don't know. |
| 23:10.47 | tomreyn | s/partitions/volumes/ |
| 23:11.29 | karlpinc | ndroftheline: So, I can't say exactly what you need to do when the disk UEFI usually boots from fails. |
| 23:12.11 | karlpinc | ndroftheline: (To tell it to use your other disk/esp. |
| 23:12.13 | tomreyn | the mainboard firmware will scan the buses in some order (which can differ by model), and use the first esp on the first drive it finds |
| 23:12.21 | sney | ESP should be pretty static, so it can be the same on both disks without being explicitly mirrored, right? |
| 23:13.18 | ndroftheline | laughs having googled "what is esp" forgetting that the world is wide |
| 23:13.24 | tomreyn | if you want data security, you can manually (or with a script) mirror esp with a systemd service |
| 23:13.37 | ndroftheline | lol |
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| 23:14.03 | ndroftheline | i mean, data security. i want operational security more; that if a drive fails and someone reboots the rig at a critical moment it'll still work |
| 23:14.14 | karlpinc | I don't think mirroring an ESP disk would necessarily work. (But am not really up on the details.) If there's something that says "go to this block of this disk to finish loading the OS" you don't want that copied between disks. Each disk should load the kernel, etc., that is on itself. Not on some other disk that might have failed. |
| 23:16.54 | tomreyn | sure, mirroring an esp partition works, as long as path to it in NVRAM / efibootmgr string remains workable. |
| 23:17.45 | tomreyn | if it differs, you can also setup multiple targets and it will just use the first it finds (in case you removed disks) |
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| 23:18.51 | karlpinc | tomreyn: So how does an esp partition encode where to find the initrd so that it can go find that initrd on multiple partitions, which it would need to do if the first partition it looks at is on a failed disk. |
| 23:18.53 | karlpinc | ? |
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| 23:19.30 | karlpinc | tomreyn: Is that what "multiple targets" is about? |
| 23:19.47 | karlpinc | needs to re-read the uefi boot process. |
| 23:19.52 | tomreyn | karlpinc: the esp doesn't do this, it's just the loacation the boot loader gets loaded from |
| 23:20.11 | tomreyn | it's up to the boot loader to decide what gets loaded next, and where from |
| 23:21.25 | karlpinc | tomreyn: Well, the grub boot loader has a disk/block recorded in it that says where to get the initrd. So you don't want the same grub boot loader image on each disk, or it will always look at a single disk to find the initrd. So, you can't mirror the esp, because that copies the boot loader. Is my logic right? |
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| 23:24.19 | karlpinc | Come to think of it, grub (2) is (iirc) sophisticated enough to try to find the initrd multiple times. In which case you could, with the right grub config, mirror the esp. |
| 23:25.13 | karlpinc | Unless there's strangeness with how grub finds disks when some disk has disappeared, in which case it might start looking in the wrong places. |
| 23:26.50 | karlpinc | Aack. This is the kind of thing where you have to pay attention to all the fiddly details. And I don't want to pay attention at all this hot minute. (But would be happy to be schooled by someone else. :-) |
| 23:26.51 | tomreyn | karlpinc: you could have multiple copies of grub64.efi on the same esp, or on differnet ESPs, with the same or different configurations for where to load the next part from. |
| 23:27.38 | karlpinc | tomreyn: I know you can do it with different configurations, one for each esp. What would be interesting is to have a single grub config to use on all esps. |
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| 23:28.47 | karlpinc | tomreyn: Then you could mirror the esps. Or at least that would be the point. No fussing about with re-installing grub on each disk every kernel upgrade. |
| 23:29.01 | tomreyn | as long as it can point to something that will be reachable to it, no problem. but that's the difficultpart, if you usually refer to that by UUIDs, which you don't want reproduced across devices |
| 23:29.48 | ndroftheline | man i kinda got the impression that mirrored system drives using mdadm or btrfs was a solved problem based on how firmly i was directed to use it instead of fakeraid. sounds like not. exciting |
| 23:29.49 | karlpinc | my brain is full. |
| 23:30.06 | tomreyn | with a mirror raid you can have the same fs uuid across multiple deivces, of course. |
| 23:30.11 | karlpinc | fakeraid is ungood all the way around. |
| 23:32.46 | ndroftheline | idk man it sounds pretty ideal for the uefi implementation on the system to just boot from the raid which it can read...right? neatly gets around the to mirror or not to mirror issue, should leav a consistent working system. and uses mdadm anyway since mdadm speaks fakeraid...it's just that d-i does something weird with my fakeraid |
| 23:34.03 | ndroftheline | anyway, i'm fully prepared to accept that fakeraid bad, but i have tried and failed several times now to use the "more common" methods of mdadm and btrfs...but run into this esp/bootloader mirroring issue, where if a drive fails and the system reboots, i've got a 50% chance of it not coming back up. |
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| 23:50.13 | j5v1 | im running a debian VM, and have a bash script that will get the most recent list of packages and start installing packages, but when running it I get an error that the packages are not available |
| 23:50.43 | j5v1 | any idea whats going on here? |
| 23:51.03 | j5v1 | im able to install the package after this script ends, but not while the script is executing the first time |
| 23:53.30 | somiaj | j5v1: Might dependon the package, which package is not available? |
| 23:54.10 | j5v1 | trying to install nodejs |
| 23:54.24 | j5v1 | which is available, and I can install it right after the script finishes and I drop back into the shell |
| 23:54.32 | j5v1 | but not able to install it automatically from the script |
| 23:56.01 | somiaj | j5v1: could it be that an apt update wasn't ran after any changes to sources.list so apt doesn't know about said packages but later in the script that changes? |
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| 23:57.33 | j5v1 | i run `sudo apt update` and `sudo apt upgrade` at the beginning of the script |
| 23:57.46 | j5v1 | later on I run the `sudo apt-get install` command in the script |
| 23:57.52 | j5v1 | so it should be updated |
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