| 00:02.29 | grey_gandalf | and nice G3 and G4 ? |
| 00:02.36 | grey_gandalf | PPC LE is an oxymoron, I hate that |
| 00:04.38 | psydroid[m] | unfortunately that's what IBM is pushing now |
| 00:05.42 | psydroid[m] | Adélie is working on support for G3 and G4, I think that's as good as it will get |
| 00:08.25 | psydroid[m] | I've even been thinking I should try to port Minix to PPC as the ultimate learning experience, at least for me it would be something like that |
| 00:10.06 | psydroid[m] | but from a practical perspective my Orange Pi is much faster in a much smaller form factor so I haven't really done much with my G4 for quite a while |
| 00:52.56 | grey_gandalf | psydroid[m]: byt my iBook(s) are nice and complete machines! |
| 00:53.10 | grey_gandalf | true, I have a Raspberry PI 3 which is almost as powerful... |
| 00:53.28 | grey_gandalf | have you read about ArcticFox ? |
| 00:55.19 | psydroid[m] | grey_gandalf, you can still make Debian Sid PPC work but I am not sure it is still getting the attention needed and I wouldn't blame the maintainers if they canned it |
| 00:55.52 | psydroid[m] | I know a bit about the history of Pale Moon and New Moon |
| 00:56.10 | psydroid[m] | enough for me to avoid them |
| 00:56.39 | psydroid[m] | I haven't tried ArcticFox myself so far |
| 00:57.08 | grey_gandalf | oh, currently my iBook is working fine enough... a few issues with display, video accel |
| 00:57.21 | grey_gandalf | but the stupid thing is missing WiFi due to amissing package |
| 00:57.37 | grey_gandalf | why do you want to avoid them? out of curiosity |
| 00:58.05 | grey_gandalf | just to tell you - I am one of the two crazy guys behind ArcticFox, actually, the one doing most of the commits and backports from FireFox :) :) :) |
| 00:58.10 | psydroid[m] | grey_gandalf, a guy kept messaging me here to get Debian working on his G4, in the end I told him to just get FreeBSD |
| 00:58.49 | psydroid[m] | because I read some crazy stories about them |
| 00:59.22 | psydroid[m] | but it's not that I've ever installed them either |
| 00:59.24 | grey_gandalf | they have crazy issues with branding, but we don't have them... |
| 00:59.55 | psydroid[m] | they are not in the Stretch repositories at least |
| 01:00.09 | grey_gandalf | oh... I have Debian working on my G3 and my G4 ibooks !!! |
| 01:00.17 | psydroid[m] | ah, so you are the good-guy-fork! |
| 01:00.19 | grey_gandalf | no, sadly not, there are a lot of floating packages |
| 01:00.29 | psydroid[m] | with graphics? |
| 01:00.31 | grey_gandalf | ahah, good-guy.. perhaps, for sure crazy... |
| 01:00.46 | grey_gandalf | I suppose all iBoks have different versions of ATI ? |
| 01:00.54 | psydroid[m] | Wheezy or Sid? |
| 01:01.38 | psydroid[m] | yes, I have no graphics with Debian Sid and ATI Rage graphics |
| 01:01.42 | grey_gandalf | buster/sid | it is the latest stuff Adrian keeps going |
| 01:02.01 | psydroid[m] | ah, JPAG |
| 01:02.16 | psydroid[m] | the infamous one |
| 01:02.34 | grey_gandalf | well, X11 is running... I have no GL and some acceleration is not working I fear.. most stuff is fine, but ArcticFox is very slow and more than the old G4 I fear it is a video support issue |
| 01:02.37 | grey_gandalf | JPAG? |
| 01:02.42 | psydroid[m] | he's doing a lot of really good work |
| 01:03.00 | psydroid[m] | John-Paul Adrian Glaubitz? |
| 01:03.17 | grey_gandalf | yeah! |
| 01:03.21 | grey_gandalf | multix@iBookG4-14:~$ uname -a |
| 01:03.21 | grey_gandalf | Linux iBookG4-14 4.19.0-1-powerpc #1 Debian 4.19.13-1 (2018-12-30) ppc GNU/Linux |
| 01:04.15 | psydroid[m] | maybe I should try the latest bits on my G4 |
| 01:05.23 | psydroid[m] | I also have Debian Sid PPC in QEMU but I could try a reinstall from the latesr media |
| 01:06.22 | grey_gandalf | help for ArcticFox would be appreciated. Essentially I am doing 99% of the work |
| 01:07.47 | grey_gandalf | do you work on FreeBSD? I use it on x86 and amd64 |
| 01:11.03 | psydroid[m] | no, I don't work on FreeBSD |
| 01:11.51 | grey_gandalf | I would love to get ArcticFox working on FreeBSD. PaleMoon/NewMoon do work |
| 01:12.09 | grey_gandalf | btu I am unsure what they fixed, I wrote the maintsainer of the port, but got no reply |
| 01:12.10 | psydroid[m] | last year I accidentally messed up my multiboot configuration on my G5, so I decided to give FreeBSD a go |
| 01:12.46 | psydroid[m] | that lasted for two weeks and then I reinstalled Debian |
| 01:13.01 | psydroid[m] | jhibbits? |
| 01:13.49 | psydroid[m] | he's also in #talos-workspace |
| 01:14.23 | psydroid[m] | as well as a few other distribution and operating system developers |
| 01:14.48 | psydroid[m] | and also some IBM guys like here |
| 01:15.52 | grey_gandalf | is he here or on the debian ML? |
| 01:16.09 | grey_gandalf | I would realy love. Everything buidls, but doesn't run. I bet some kind of platform specific tweak |
| 01:16.20 | psydroid[m] | he is here on Freenode |
| 01:16.43 | grey_gandalf | PaleMoon is nothing bad, but the distribution is crazy.... we don't suffer that being a fork, actually, I removed some of the crazy hacks inside |
| 01:17.19 | grey_gandalf | the original goal was to have a Browser for Mac 10.6 and 10.6 "apple abandoned"... but a pet project got attention, I am surprised and it is more than waht I can take |
| 01:17.42 | psydroid[m] | it's a bit of a unique community of developers and power users around a niche piece of hardware, but it's nice to see things are moving forward little by little |
| 01:18.24 | grey_gandalf | I always was a non-intel guy.. now, well, I had to resign. I still have sparc, ARM, PPC, PA-RISC... |
| 01:18.43 | psydroid[m] | I'm willing to give it a try one of these days |
| 01:19.33 | grey_gandalf | except some stupid sites.. it works more than I thought!! you can use facebook! |
| 01:19.37 | psydroid[m] | I have all of those minus PA-RISC plus MIPS |
| 01:19.41 | grey_gandalf | on PPC it is slow, JIT is missing |
| 01:20.05 | grey_gandalf | I have MIPS! several SGIs... but don't use them anymore, I did love IRIX |
| 01:20.21 | grey_gandalf | in the bast 10 years or so, I have less time, my attention shifted |
| 01:20.34 | psydroid[m] | mine too |
| 01:20.41 | grey_gandalf | I have both SPARC and UltraSPARC |
| 01:21.19 | psydroid[m] | but if Wave/MIPS can get some Pi-like hardware out there I would be interested |
| 01:21.22 | grey_gandalf | I love NetBSD.. suing it since 1996 :) |
| 01:22.02 | psydroid[m] | my other MIPS computer is one of those Chinese Loongson desktops |
| 01:22.46 | psydroid[m] | lol, I've installed NetBSD more than a few times but never used it |
| 01:22.47 | grey_gandalf | oh, never got one fo them |
| 01:23.00 | grey_gandalf | but I have a Letux400, one of those few developer machines |
| 01:23.14 | grey_gandalf | I know personally the author... I got GNUstep working on that |
| 01:23.28 | psydroid[m] | they sent me one for development, I should still have it somewhere |
| 01:23.33 | grey_gandalf | personally, I love MIPS, SPARC and also PPC as architectures |
| 01:23.42 | grey_gandalf | a letux ? |
| 01:24.08 | psydroid[m] | no, one of those Loongson desktops |
| 01:24.24 | grey_gandalf | cool, those have a better CPU |
| 01:24.34 | grey_gandalf | but it is something which looked promising but went into nothing? |
| 01:25.16 | psydroid[m] | yes |
| 01:25.28 | psydroid[m] | well, it's a different story |
| 01:25.54 | psydroid[m] | they have kept developing their processors |
| 01:26.31 | psydroid[m] | the ones in those desktops were built to military spec |
| 01:26.55 | psydroid[m] | and I don't think that's changed in later generations |
| 01:27.56 | psydroid[m] | they have been used in all kinds of projects such as networking, supercomputers and who knows what else |
| 01:28.10 | grey_gandalf | similar to PPC |
| 01:28.17 | psydroid[m] | but the focus changed to domestic use |
| 01:28.31 | grey_gandalf | I got in contact with some guys tryiung to resurge PPC and making an open-hardware refernce board |
| 01:28.38 | psydroid[m] | that's why don't hear about them anymore |
| 01:28.48 | grey_gandalf | much better than those PPC boards of AMIGA; because of a better CPU, used in networking |
| 01:29.18 | grey_gandalf | can't find jhibbits registered |
| 01:29.23 | grey_gandalf | is he heresometimes |
| 01:29.25 | psydroid[m] | not the PowerPC notebook people? |
| 01:29.49 | psydroid[m] | he should be on that channel all the time, let me check |
| 01:29.50 | grey_gandalf | yeah the PPC notebok people.. should be them ? Power Progress Community |
| 01:29.57 | grey_gandalf | which channel? |
| 01:30.37 | psydroid[m] | #talos-workstation |
| 01:30.50 | grey_gandalf | anyway, any help on FreeBSD would help me: I have a FreeBSD workstation and laptop, so I could develp there, much more convenient! I will still test of course Linux PPC and x86 |
| 01:31.06 | grey_gandalf | I am the crazy GNUstep guy, if you ever had to do with that |
| 01:31.22 | psydroid[m] | I think they will appreciate it |
| 01:31.32 | psydroid[m] | did you develop it? |
| 01:32.00 | grey_gandalf | yes, I am one of the core GNUstep developers and mainainers... 16 years of crazy hacking, the GNU project everybody ignores :) |
| 01:32.58 | psydroid[m] | I've met lots of people doing amazing stuff here, sometimes even in real life like at FOSDEM :) |
| 01:33.19 | grey_gandalf | I once was at fosdem, for GNUstep! |
| 01:33.23 | grey_gandalf | 2009 or so |
| 01:33.48 | grey_gandalf | then, well FOSDEM changed and also my time & money.... but I am one of the few who belives strongly in GNUstep |
| 01:33.55 | psydroid[m] | so yes, Windowmaker is one of my favourite GUI environments |
| 01:34.17 | grey_gandalf | this ArcticFox is actually a new thing for me, but it is cool. I hate that Mozilla, Apple... now even Microsoft, abandon very fine OS just to "chromize" everything |
| 01:34.39 | grey_gandalf | WindowMaker is thebest, but, rememebr WINGs, Wings Is Not GNUstep, but jsut a "look" :) |
| 01:35.38 | psydroid[m] | this is also my issue, I can't trust those companies to give me a portable web browsing experience anymore |
| 01:35.44 | psydroid[m] | haha |
| 01:36.40 | grey_gandalf | well.. I di hat them, but now it is worse, they essntially surrendered, I hate that.. and since I distrust google more than Microsoft or Apple |
| 01:36.45 | psydroid[m] | although I must say Firefox works on ARM64 now for me |
| 01:37.03 | grey_gandalf | I can browse on Windows 7 perfectly, and up to just a few months ago even on Win XP!! |
| 01:37.18 | grey_gandalf | howver, Mozilla and Apple abandoned much more recent MacOS versions |
| 01:38.07 | grey_gandalf | so.. here it started ArcticFox :) I have it on 10.6 Mac and 10.7! and then Linux.. PPC... etc etc.. and we got youtubed, Facebook ... |
| 01:38.16 | psydroid[m] | as one of the developers from the early days of free software I think it's even harder for you to swallow |
| 01:38.24 | grey_gandalf | but of course, no material help... I am alone doing the hardwork, with some help from Matt |
| 01:38.51 | grey_gandalf | me? well not "so early" but for sure older than most people nowadays |
| 01:38.52 | psydroid[m] | 10 years ago Firefox worked for me on all architectures with minor patching |
| 01:39.30 | grey_gandalf | yes... I feel that in the passt few years software, even commercial software, got cut, folded... and beame "one thing" |
| 01:39.48 | psydroid[m] | well, I don't mean RMS kind of early days but a few decades later |
| 01:40.04 | grey_gandalf | yes... |
| 01:40.16 | grey_gandalf | I can boost my emal.. RMS has rms@gnu.org |
| 01:40.26 | grey_gandalf | you can write me at rm@gmu.org :) :) |
| 01:40.43 | psydroid[m] | haha, I will :) |
| 01:40.54 | grey_gandalf | @gnu.org of course |
| 01:41.33 | grey_gandalf | I fear opensource is fading... people just lok for conveninece. If even "proprietary" software are betraying us... |
| 01:42.27 | psydroid[m] | I will look into Arctic Fox but I feel it's always going to trail behind what Mozilla is doing with Firefox upstream |
| 01:42.54 | grey_gandalf | it will.. and I don't know how much I can squeeze of it |
| 01:43.13 | grey_gandalf | Mozilla went RustC, ArcticFox/PaleMoon do not |
| 01:43.39 | grey_gandalf | also FF went multi-process (like Chrome! do consume resources! come on!) |
| 01:44.08 | grey_gandalf | maybe with more people.. but my goal is currently to apply as many patches I can that are valid" without Rust |
| 01:44.44 | grey_gandalf | I will be able to get it perhaps to FF49, close to FF52 and some fixes from FF60... but more I cannot promise, if people don'st step in |
| 01:45.23 | psydroid[m] | I don't have newer POWER hardware so I run Debian PPC64 and PPC64LE and Fedora, but Firefox doesn't work for me there, so I filed a bug report, which has been reassigned to the QEMU people |
| 01:45.48 | grey_gandalf | believing mozilla is on the "wrong step".. it won't happen. Microsoft abandoned Edge for Chromium! so now only firefox and Safari remain. For how long Apple will hold? I don't know.. Chromium is a Safari derivate, but... I fear it will merge in one big blob. One StandardBrowser |
| 01:45.56 | psydroid[m] | you're already doing a great job |
| 01:46.22 | grey_gandalf | I compile ArcticFox on G4 currently and it is usable.... |
| 01:46.40 | psydroid[m] | I am fine with Chromium becoming the One StandarBrowser |
| 01:46.41 | grey_gandalf | and I know of PPC64 and G5 ports, I am in contact with them |
| 01:46.46 | grey_gandalf | I an NOT fine!!! |
| 01:46.54 | grey_gandalf | (obviously) |
| 01:47.01 | grey_gandalf | chromium = new IE 6!!! |
| 01:47.36 | psydroid[m] | why? because then people will come to their senses and build a new portable web engine unlike what Firefox has become |
| 01:47.51 | psydroid[m] | so yeah, I'm trolling a bit here |
| 01:48.45 | psydroid[m] | if I had the time and the skills I would try it at least |
| 01:50.00 | grey_gandalf | compiling ArcticFox is not hard |
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| 01:50.47 | psydroid[m] | now the problem is that whatever alternative browser I try to build, it always pulls in WebEngine or WebkitGTK or some unmaintained QtWebkit |
| 01:51.15 | psydroid[m] | so I still can't build most of them on PPC |
| 01:51.45 | grey_gandalf | stupid |
| 01:51.53 | grey_gandalf | here comes in,, mighty ArcticFox :) |
| 01:52.37 | psydroid[m] | my web browser of choice for Debian PPC64/LE in QEMU is Netsurf because it actually works |
| 01:53.05 | grey_gandalf | well, ArcticFox is waaaay better than NetSurf!! |
| 01:53.13 | grey_gandalf | NetSurf is fine and fast, but that's all |
| 01:53.18 | psydroid[m] | and I will try to build ArcticFox too :) |
| 01:53.47 | psydroid[m] | I know, but if nothing else works ... |
| 01:54.10 | psydroid[m] | I wish I could afford a Talos but not now |
| 01:54.49 | grey_gandalf | stay tuned for the next AF release :) |
| 01:55.01 | grey_gandalf | but even the current one... it should works for you |
| 01:55.07 | psydroid[m] | all-right :) |
| 01:55.08 | grey_gandalf | there are ready-made binaries too |
| 01:55.28 | grey_gandalf | and if I could get it working on FreeBSD, it would help me having a more comfortable machine to work on |
| 01:55.45 | psydroid[m] | I will definitely test them over the next few days |
| 01:56.13 | psydroid[m] | you should definitely reach out to tpearson in the talos channel |
| 01:56.28 | grey_gandalf | btw, my iBook has a pretty decent video in theory |
| 01:56.38 | grey_gandalf | 0000:00:10.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV280/M9+ [Mobility Radeon 9200 AGP] (rev 01) |
| 01:56.46 | psydroid[m] | he may give you access to their cloud systems |
| 01:56.52 | grey_gandalf | I also have a clamshell iBook :) |
| 01:57.26 | psydroid[m] | and considering your long history with free software development you will probably get it easily |
| 01:58.15 | grey_gandalf | 3 am... and I have a real job too.. good night |
| 01:58.23 | psydroid[m] | I never got into iBooks and Powerbooks but I would like a modern version of those |
| 01:58.39 | psydroid[m] | good night |
| 01:58.40 | grey_gandalf | they were wonderful. really. |
| 01:59.21 | grey_gandalf | after 10, 15 years, they still are great..... imagine tha tthe clamshell has a G3 cpu consuming like 3 Watts, and batteries last four hours. Imagine it today, with a LE display and perhaps a dual-core version with DDR ram, even jsut so, it would be great |
| 02:00.31 | psydroid[m] | yeah, I understand |
| 02:01.23 | psydroid[m] | I only owned 2 notebooks in my life, my old one from the early 2000s and my current one, both Intel |
| 02:02.54 | psydroid[m] | but since I also need to wake up in a few hours, let's call it a night |
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| 14:29.14 | grey_gandalf | hi psydroid[m] |
| 14:36.01 | psydroid[m] | hi grey_gandalf |
| 14:43.12 | grey_gandalf | I hacked too late yesterday / this morning :) :) |
| 14:49.05 | psydroid[m] | :) |
| 14:49.30 | psydroid[m] | but you're not alone, I told you that whole channel is full of software and hardware developers |
| 14:50.09 | psydroid[m] | so you only have to ask taking into account different time zones people live in |
| 14:58.46 | grey_gandalf | I mean, my head is heavy. I'm getting older... |
| 14:58.53 | grey_gandalf | do you write on the debian ML ? |
| 15:00.24 | psydroid[m] | no, I haven't been a part of those mailing lists |
| 15:00.54 | psydroid[m] | and never really used debian as my main system until I installed stretch on my laptop about 2 years ago |
| 15:03.22 | grey_gandalf | what do you PPC on? |
| 15:03.51 | psydroid[m] | I have a G4 and a G5, which are both collecting dust at the moment |
| 15:04.09 | psydroid[m] | so I mostly run operating systems in QEMU on my x86 laptop |
| 15:08.29 | psydroid[m] | I ran the G5 for quite a while last year compiling lots of software, but Debian ppc64 has some problems so I decided it was better to try and fix stuff in QEMU and sending patches upstream before going back to running on real hardware |
| 15:09.01 | psydroid[m] | I can be masochistic at times but only for so long until I can't take it anymore |
| 15:14.07 | grey_gandalf | ahah ok :) |
| 15:14.15 | grey_gandalf | I never liked emulation though |
| 15:17.50 | psydroid[m] | surprisingly it's fast enough on this hardware |
| 15:18.25 | psydroid[m] | and I use QEMU for ARM, SPARC, MIPS and RISC-V too, so it's convenient to have everything in one place |
| 16:41.26 | grey_gandalf | yes, conveneinet to test & develop perhaps |
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