| 07:37.22 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 07:37.22 | *** topic/#devuan is Devuan discussion channel - Beta is out https://www.devuan.org - forum on https://talk.devuan.org - irc logs https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/ |
| 07:37.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw works again |
| 07:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless there's |
| 07:38.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | !mirrors |
| 07:38.14 | infobot | somebody said mirrors was https://devuan.voyanet.org/ http://devuan.lucylaika.ovh http://devuan.ksx4system.net/ ftp, http://tux.rainside.sk/devuan/ http://devuan.selea.se/ http & ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/devuan/ http://devuan.c3l.lu/ http://neo900-devuanfiles.dev-one.org (eventually, until then:) http://devuan-temporary-mirror.almesberger.net |
| 07:42.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | re "works again" see http://devuan-temporary-mirror.almesberger.net/log.txt |
| 07:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and moinmoin devuan |
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| 09:35.49 | Defiant | hmm wine fails in devuan because of missing /etc/debian_version is there a devuan bugtracker? |
| 09:42.21 | debdog | it's on https://git.devuan.org |
| 09:49.16 | Defiant | thx |
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| 09:53.08 | Defiant | hmm now I'm on https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages/issues registered and click on "new issue" but all I get is a search box instead of a formular for a new ticket? |
| 10:00.13 | nextime | Defiant: new issues has to be done on projects, not on groups |
| 10:00.22 | nextime | if isn't anything specific to any specific package |
| 10:00.44 | nextime | https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project open an issue here |
| 10:01.08 | Defiant | k thx |
| 10:01.22 | nextime | for your issue |
| 10:01.33 | nextime | try to symlink devuan_version to debian_version |
| 10:01.39 | Defiant | already done |
| 10:01.46 | nextime | it works? |
| 10:01.48 | Defiant | sure |
| 10:02.35 | nextime | great, then it's better to synlink it by default at least until we will have forked all packages :) |
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| 10:29.22 | Centurion_Dan | nextime: it should be done in base-files package. I can attend to it tomorrow if you don't have time. |
| 10:34.48 | jaromil | its wise to put this symlink or even a hard-link |
| 10:35.05 | jaromil | some programs fail recognizing is an apt based distro indeed. |
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| 10:51.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 10:52.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ([sym]link) would wine also test for a certain content of /etc/debian_version? |
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| 10:54.24 | Defiant | its just print its output, e.g. Executing wine (wineserver32) 1.8.1 on Debian ascii/ceres (amd64). |
| 10:54.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh :-) |
| 10:55.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# cat /etc/debian_version |
| 10:55.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | testing/unstable |
| 10:55.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | (maemo) |
| 10:57.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly wine shouldn't fail when the file is missing |
| 10:58.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ln -s /dev/urandom /etc/debian_version ;-) |
| 11:00.14 | Defiant | read will block |
| 11:00.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | for less specacular effects make that /dev/null |
| 11:00.38 | Defiant | /dev/null works |
| 11:00.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | Defiant: read will never return, that's true. Unless read buffer full |
| 11:01.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 11:01.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | was just kidding anyway, SCNR |
| 11:03.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | (buffer full) or overrun and segfault ;-P |
| 11:05.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly tries to recall how much of any "standard" been defined with /etc/*version*|*release* anyway |
| 11:06.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you already need to know the distro you're running on, to make a successful call to the files describing the distro, it somehwat defeats the purpose, no? |
| 11:07.39 | Defiant | check /etc/os-release |
| 11:08.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I ran into this issue when trying to make sure in a generic script that there's a certain lib (libusb0.1.4_32) available on arbitrary linux systems |
| 11:08.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# cat /etc/os-release |
| 11:08.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | cat: /etc/os-release: No such file or directory |
| 11:09.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | however: |
| 11:09.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> cat /etc/os-release |
| 11:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | NAME=openSUSE |
| 11:09.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | VERSION="13.1 (Bottle)" |
| 11:10.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | channel CTCP enabled? |
| 11:14.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | /mode #devuan +C |
| 11:16.46 | nextime | Centurion_Dan: : today i can't, but tonight i will |
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| 11:32.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla is <reply>nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4 |
| 11:32.15 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 11:35.11 | jaromil | this should go also in the docs on talk |
| 11:35.33 | jaromil | also last day when enyc asked i had no time to explain (weekends!) and i was sorry |
| 11:36.13 | jaromil | please do use talk.devuan.org that is the collectively edited source of info, with tags on topics, also linked from webpage |
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| 12:13.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukes on reading http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/os-release.html |
| 12:15.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>It's our hope that by dropping support for non-compliant distributions we gently put some pressure on the remaining hold-outs to adopt this scheme as well.<< it's this mindset I really *hate* |
| 12:17.13 | nextime | who cares if systemd doesn't support us? WE don't support systemd :P |
| 12:17.37 | fsmithred | silly me - I thought /etc/issue was the standard place to put that info. |
| 12:18.26 | fsmithred | I think those guys like to make up their own names for stuff. |
| 12:19.11 | nextime | fsmithred: let's them make lindows, we are working to continue the UNIX-Like environment for linux |
| 12:19.15 | nextime | :) |
| 12:19.46 | nextime | i don't really care about them anymore. |
| 12:19.47 | fsmithred | yeah, I like that idea. |
| 12:20.41 | nextime | we and the "systemd crew" have oposite ideas |
| 12:21.24 | nextime | they are trying to delete diversity and to make an omogeneous linux environament for all, thinking that unification is good, posix and unix compatibility isn't |
| 12:21.54 | nextime | we, as opposite, think that diversity is a value, linux success is what it is thanks to it, and posix and unix are the best environment |
| 12:21.58 | fsmithred | yes, that scares me. |
| 12:22.07 | nextime | i'm not scared |
| 12:22.20 | nextime | linux and open source works this way |
| 12:22.31 | nextime | whan someone doesn't agree with someone else |
| 12:22.33 | nextime | forks appen |
| 12:22.46 | j3nkins | the only diversity they care about this days is the diversity of gender and skin color, which is irrelevant |
| 12:22.51 | nextime | and anyone follow the way is the best in he's own view |
| 12:22.58 | fsmithred | lol |
| 12:23.04 | nextime | as long as we have enough horses and people thinking like us |
| 12:23.06 | nextime | there is no risks |
| 12:23.17 | nextime | and the success of this project and other non-systemd projects |
| 12:23.24 | nextime | prove there is meat for all of us |
| 12:24.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
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| 12:24.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | saved my day |
| 12:24.59 | nextime | will systemd/linux conquer the world? maybe, i don't care, 20 years ago we were 4 cats using linux, and today we drive the world |
| 12:25.03 | nextime | will happen again. |
| 12:25.36 | fsmithred | need to go get some food. bbl. |
| 12:25.49 | fsmithred | (all this talk of meat...) |
| 12:26.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, same here |
| 12:26.33 | nextime | just finished to eat |
| 12:26.38 | nextime | "ossibuchi alla milanese" |
| 12:26.39 | nextime | :D |
| 12:27.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Also, you are kinda working towards the further balkanization of the Linux landscape, but maybe that's your intention?<< err YES!!! |
| 12:27.55 | nextime | https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook:Ossobuco_Alla_Milanese |
| 12:28.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | when the alternative is a Poettering kindom, then for sure |
| 12:28.47 | j3nkins | I had some "parmigiana di melanzane" |
| 12:30.12 | nextime | j3nkins: well, the italian cousine is well respected in whole world also cause of huge variety of food. The same deserve to linux world. Systemd is like the mac donald's of linux :D |
| 12:30.39 | j3nkins | great quote right there |
| 12:31.26 | nextime | probably @ShitDevuanSays will quote me for that |
| 12:31.37 | nextime | and many peoplw will say i hate systemd. |
| 12:31.38 | nextime | :D |
| 12:32.00 | nextime | ( but i don't care, haters gona hate ) |
| 12:33.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hating systemd is not something you chose to do, it's something you can't help but have to do once you understand it completely |
| 12:34.12 | nextime | DocScrutinizer05: i don't really hate systemd. What i hate is the philosophy it's trying to evangelize and the imposition to use it. |
| 12:34.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's right |
| 12:34.33 | nextime | systemd itself is just another piece of software i'm not interested to use. like many others. |
| 12:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's hard to hate a set of bytes |
| 12:35.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the hype about it that I hate |
| 12:35.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the trouble this hype causes for me |
| 12:39.15 | nextime | well |
| 12:39.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think we don't need to discuss this for us here, we prolly all ate at McD's eventually. And Devuan would even allow systemd when systemd wouldn't introduce claims of exclusiveness and mutual incompatibilities |
| 12:40.48 | nextime | when someone point me in the direction of "but all major distro now are using it!" "eat shit, millions of flies can't be wrong" :D |
| 12:41.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 12:41.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think I'm quoting the latter one at least weekly |
| 12:41.51 | nextime | yes, as i said many times, we are ready to include systemd if and when systemd will not try to hijack the base system and will respect diversity |
| 12:42.31 | nextime | it isn't us blocking systemd, is systemd blocking us to adopt it :) |
| 12:42.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, well put |
| 12:44.06 | nextime | plenty of new material for @ShitDevuanSays today |
| 12:44.09 | nextime | :) |
| 12:44.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 12:47.28 | jaromil | i submitted a Devuan talk for this CfP btw http://www.olografix.org/call-for-papers-moca-2016/ |
| 12:47.47 | jaromil | mostly because is a relaxed environment full of friendly hackers and because I'll be around there anyway |
| 12:48.49 | jaromil | I recommend submitting or coming over to anyone interested in visiting a beach town in Italy at end of august. its every 2 years, last time a dev from coreboot was with us too from .de |
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| 13:02.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil: alas the page truncates text |
| 13:03.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/05/08/plasma-desktopqo2219.png |
| 13:05.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh there's a scrillbar all the way down to the bottom ;-P |
| 13:05.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | scrollbar even |
| 13:05.53 | jaromil | i'm sure somebody knows but has no time to fix it :) |
| 13:06.00 | jaromil | bbl |
| 13:06.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | as always ;-) |
| 13:06.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | cya |
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| 13:38.32 | fsmithred | jaromil, what beach town? |
| 13:39.45 | Inocuous | greetings everyone |
| 13:40.02 | fsmithred | hi |
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| 13:43.38 | Inocuous | I forgot who I was chatting with about modifying notifications the other day. That turned out to be pretty straight forward editing. Though some of the things I would like to change appear to be hard coded. |
| 13:43.56 | fsmithred | me |
| 13:44.02 | fsmithred | and golinux |
| 13:44.58 | fsmithred | I broke down and looked at the ponies. Not as bad as I'd feared. |
| 13:45.33 | Inocuous | that one theme shows up really big for me, |
| 13:45.41 | fsmithred | yes |
| 13:46.16 | fsmithred | there seems to be a widespread belief that kids like bad art. |
| 13:46.29 | Inocuous | haha, yeah. |
| 13:49.39 | Inocuous | I asked someone too about updates, but I wasn't sure of the answer, where Devuan is still beta, are they no system updates being issued? |
| 13:50.03 | fsmithred | I get updates |
| 13:50.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | random systemd bugreport: running a cronjob for user XY *creates* a stale symlink ~XY/.local/share/systemd/user |
| 13:50.42 | Inocuous | I must not have something set right. I"ve never been prompted or notified |
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| 13:53.00 | fsmithred | prompted? I think you have to ask. |
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| 13:53.25 | fsmithred | apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade is what I usually do. |
| 13:53.29 | Inocuous | ok. The only other linux I've run was ubuntu and it had a tool that would run daily and advise |
| 13:53.42 | fsmithred | update-notifier |
| 13:54.32 | fsmithred | but it requires libpam-systemd |
| 13:55.22 | Inocuous | oh, I see. |
| 13:56.29 | Inocuous | I'll try that update and see what I get. |
| 13:57.06 | fsmithred | I like to do aptitude -s full-upgrade between update and dist-upgrade, because the output is easy to read. |
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| 13:58.47 | fsmithred | write a script that does the update and the simulated upgrade, put the results from the latter in a text file that gets dumped on your destop, and run it as a cron job. |
| 14:01.35 | Inocuous | I've set up cron jobs on websites, but never locally. |
| 14:02.48 | fsmithred | the update part needs to be run by root, but the simulated upgrade can be run by user. |
| 14:04.20 | Inocuous | which is the simulated upgrade? |
| 14:05.27 | Inocuous | Oh, I see, the -s |
| 14:05.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: see my last post, prolly related. also http://paste.opensuse.org/48973407 |
| 14:09.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | systemd, fubar |
| 14:09.23 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, I'm looking, but I don't understand. |
| 14:09.31 | fsmithred | where'd you get .local/share/systemd? |
| 14:09.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | a crontab job makes systemd create ~/.local/share/systemd/user |
| 14:10.32 | fsmithred | user instead of $USER? |
| 14:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:10.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc |
| 14:10.58 | fsmithred | lol |
| 14:11.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see that stael symlink showing up again after cronjob, when I delete it |
| 14:11.17 | fsmithred | I'm gonna wait until the kinks are worked out before I use systemd |
| 14:11.27 | fsmithred | if I live long enought |
| 14:11.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | you won't |
| 14:12.04 | fsmithred | yeah, still waiting for pulseaudio |
| 14:12.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | *cough* |
| 14:12.21 | fsmithred | sorry |
| 14:14.58 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 15:20.48 | golinux | Just reading the scrollback comments about wine. I just dropped my old home directory from squeeze including .wine into Devuan and it's working perfectly. |
| 15:21.26 | golinux | wine 1.6.2-20 is installed and I'm on 32 bit if that matters. |
| 15:22.22 | golinux | Defiant: ^^^ |
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| 15:28.30 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: I have never eaten at McD! |
| 15:29.00 | golinux | Grew up pon real food before McD existed |
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| 15:33.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | would you believe me when I say I anticipated that reply when I wrote that? ;-) |
| 15:38.14 | fsmithred | golinux, you're not missing much |
| 15:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw McD exists quite a while, prolly longer than you'd guess, however it's clearly not been that prevalent until maybe the 60s |
| 15:38.38 | fsmithred | I used to know a doctor who said that the golden arches represent all the kidneys they've destroyed. |
| 15:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | guesses McD exists a tiny bit longer than golinux |
| 15:44.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe not as frenchise |
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| 15:50.58 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: More than a decade. Almost two! |
| 15:51.15 | golinux | Me before McD |
| 15:52.08 | golinux | goes to verify with startpage |
| 15:52.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | hardly, that would mean you're almost 100 years old now |
| 15:52.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're right though when you talk about the Mc domald's *Corporation* |
| 15:53.07 | golinux | Our History. Since 1955, we've been proud to serve the world some of its favorite food. |
| 15:53.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | which been founded as late as April 15, 1955 |
| 15:54.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | McD the name/restaurant opened at May 15, 1940 |
| 15:54.28 | golinux | Let's just say I had never heard of it until I was well formed. |
| 15:54.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can easily agree on that :-) |
| 15:54.56 | golinux | Let's move on . . . very OT |
| 15:55.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe indeed |
| 15:55.19 | golinux | My fault for 'biting' into it |
| 15:55.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | no damage done |
| 15:55.53 | fsmithred | moving right along... |
| 15:56.23 | fsmithred | new version of refractainstaller is ready and in the testing folder at sourceforge (because I haven't actually tested it yet.) |
| 15:56.40 | fsmithred | it handles disabling autologin with slim. |
| 15:57.32 | golinux | fsmithred: You have a msg |
| 15:57.41 | fsmithred | I'm not going to do anything with /etc/default/grub unless someone tells me to do it. |
| 16:10.02 | Inocuous | this may sound like a stupid question, and it probably is, but what is the normal directory to use for cron scripts? |
| 16:10.51 | fsmithred | make a cron job to run a script. You can put the script wherever you want. |
| 16:11.43 | fsmithred | my last post didn't show |
| 16:11.48 | fsmithred | oh |
| 16:11.59 | fsmithred | it was /usr/local/bin is a good place to put scripts |
| 16:12.06 | fsmithred | don't start a line with / here |
| 16:12.11 | fsmithred | duh |
| 16:12.24 | Inocuous | haha, ok. thanks for both tips :) |
| 16:12.36 | FrozenWes | most clients allow some form of escaping |
| 16:12.50 | FrozenWes | /I started this line by typing // for example |
| 16:13.12 | Inocuous | nice. |
| 16:13.39 | muep_ | is there a downside to putting it just directly to one of the /etc/cron.{hourly,daily,weekly}Â directories if the schedules of those seem ok? |
| 16:14.03 | muep_ | also assuming that the script is not terribly long so that it'd take too much space from /etc |
| 16:15.13 | fsmithred | I can't recall if stuff in /etc/cron.* gets automatically logged. If you, you'd need to add something to logrotate. |
| 16:15.31 | fsmithred | /if you/if yes/ |
| 16:15.39 | FrozenWes | crontab and thos directories are not designed for the same use cases iirc, I'm sure there's a man page or website that details it |
| 16:16.12 | fsmithred | yeah, I think that's for services |
| 16:16.33 | fsmithred | just do crontab -e and point it to your script however often you want. |
| 16:16.46 | muep_ | I guess the logging thing is a bit distribution specific |
| 16:29.51 | Inocuous | the fancy Devuan logo that is on the website, is that an installable font by any chance? |
| 16:34.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | re the /etc/cron.{hourly,daily,weekly} I'd consider it poor style to have complete scripts in there |
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| 16:35.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | otoh everybody seems to do it |
| 16:36.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Inocuous: http://paste.opensuse.org/56133295 |
| 16:36.50 | muep_ | wouldn't it be consistent with having complete scripts in /etc/init.d/ ? |
| 16:37.20 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, talk to golinux about the desktop theme and logo |
| 16:37.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, you have complete scripts in /etc/init.d/ but not in /etc/init.d/rc?.d/ |
| 16:37.51 | muep_ | I used to have just one-liners that'd then invoke a script from elsewhere, but I did not seem to be getting any benefit when compared to just having the script directly in /etc/cron.* |
| 16:38.06 | muep_ | DocScrutinizer05: complete scripts in both |
| 16:38.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | muep_: no, in rc?.d/ I at least got only symlinks |
| 16:39.07 | muep_ | ah, indeed the scripts are actually in /etc/rc.d. but they are not under /usr outside the configuration tree |
| 16:39.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 16:39.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the scripts in /etc/cron.{hourly,daily,weekly} seem to be real files |
| 16:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I would use a symlink scheme like in init.d |
| 16:40.06 | muep_ | having full scripts in /usr/local and referring to them from /etc seemed to just give me extra steps to follow when investigating a problem |
| 16:40.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | is afk |
| 16:42.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/32679006 |
| 16:44.49 | golinux | Inocuous: No that is not an installable font. |
| 16:45.08 | golinux | It is a variant of Fira Sans |
| 16:45.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | awesome: http://paste.opensuse.org/17439418 |
| 16:45.36 | Inocuous | thanks golinux |
| 16:45.50 | golinux | hellekin and worked it out together. He turned letters upside down and on their side |
| 16:45.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I feel like it been said that executables of any kind in /etc were generally a poor idea |
| 16:46.32 | golinux | And then letter placement was adjusted etc. |
| 16:47.03 | golinux | And then of course we integrated the swoosh |
| 16:47.34 | golinux | It took quite some time to get it right |
| 16:47.57 | golinux | Inocuous: ^^^ |
| 16:49.06 | golinux | Here's where we hammered it out: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/20 |
| 16:49.54 | Inocuous | It came out great golinux, very professional. |
| 16:50.47 | golinux | Thanks |
| 16:51.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | So I for one would split the whole thing into a cronjob-specific "config file" in /etc/cron.{hourly,daily,weekly} which isn't meant to ever get called interactively or in a different environment, and this calling a commandline executable to do the real work that lives in /usr/local/bin |
| 16:56.30 | Defiant | golinux: you probably migrated from debian, right? |
| 16:57.12 | golinux | No a fresh install |
| 16:57.40 | Defiant | golinux: this is strange, so you do not have /etc/debian_version? |
| 16:57.54 | fsmithred | The files under /etc/cron.d |
| 16:57.54 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:57.54 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:57.54 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.05 | golinux | Still have squeeze and wheezy running elsewhere |
| 16:58.45 | golinux | Defiant: No grokking your question |
| 16:59.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | err mhm: http://paste.opensuse.org/67938961 never even heard of /root/bin/cron.daily.local |
| 17:01.16 | golinux | Defiant: Ah I see I have /etc/devuan_version |
| 17:01.34 | golinux | Not /etc/debian_version |
| 17:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: no manpage for run-parts on my system |
| 17:02.17 | Defiant | golinux: and what wine package did you install? |
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| 17:02.53 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, what are you running? |
| 17:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | suse |
| 17:03.01 | fsmithred | oh |
| 17:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 17:03.09 | fsmithred | been a decade since I used suse |
| 17:03.46 | golinux | Defiant: wine 1.6.2-20 |
| 17:03.56 | golinux | I'm on 32bit |
| 17:04.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, stuff like cron.daily hardly is posix or any standard at all, eh? |
| 17:04.15 | Defiant | golinux: hmm is that jessie? |
| 17:04.25 | fsmithred | I don't know |
| 17:04.41 | fsmithred | never messed with it until I was using debian |
| 17:04.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly highly distro specific |
| 17:04.55 | golinux | Devuan jessie |
| 17:04.56 | fsmithred | yeah, that wouldn't surprise me |
| 17:05.23 | Defiant | golinux: I'm on testing, might be the difference |
| 17:05.27 | golinux | But I upgraded from alpha2 |
| 17:05.50 | golinux | Testing could be the diff |
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| 17:06.05 | golinux | I always run stable |
| 17:06.44 | golinux | is not very adventurous |
| 17:07.35 | furrywolf | noticed! |
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| 17:22.25 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, did you find a man page for run-parts? |
| 17:25.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't even find a run-parts binary on my system ;-) |
| 17:26.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>runcon rundig rungs runidn runlevel runscript runuser << is about it with run* |
| 17:28.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I however *guess* runparts is a oneliner script like "for script in $1/*; do sh $script; done" |
| 17:47.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | found manpage and binary on maemo |
| 17:51.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually a symlink to messybox |
| 17:56.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm absolutely sure a few years ago this been a script on suse systems, iirc in /etc/init.d/. Of course now nuked for systemd |
| 17:57.13 | enyc | random idea, -- I've wondered, what it would take to build devuan stable (or later ascii) i386 with e.g. 486 compatible gcc (and kernel obviously but that bits' easy), producing version compatible with ''legacy'' machines =) |
| 17:58.26 | DusXMT | I thought that was the default? (it is at least on debian, from what I recall) |
| 17:58.59 | enyc | DusXMT: no, hasn't been a while |
| 17:59.07 | enyc | DusXMT: and is chaniging again for stretch |
| 17:59.36 | enyc | DusXMT: stretch will strictly require ''686'' (but not yet require SSE / pentium-III etc) |
| 17:59.49 | Defiant | enyc: debian just tropped 586 |
| 17:59.55 | enyc | Defiant: exactly |
| 18:00.11 | DusXMT | pets his pentium3 based machine :) |
| 18:00.14 | golinux | DusXMT: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160505.211556.4d82359c.en.html |
| 18:01.00 | enyc | though |
| 18:01.27 | enyc | I wonder, how devuan's changes , no systemd, different udev, etc. -- translate into compatibility with 'older' (even unsupported) linux kernels |
| 18:01.31 | DusXMT | Thanks for enlightening me |
| 18:02.13 | enyc | could you optionally run devuan in static /dev nodes without udev? i wonder.. . i know this isn't what the project was aimed at, but makes me wonder |
| 18:04.09 | enyc | seemingly libc6 is currently wired to 'insist' on 2.6.32 but can e.g. be told to 'accept 2.6.28 anyway' ... interesting =) |
| 18:05.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | static /dev should just work aiui |
| 18:05.44 | muep_ | I think it would normally require a rebuild with headers of an older kernel to make it consider it safe to run itself against an older kernel |
| 18:07.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | has a P-II machine |
| 18:07.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | with 128some MB RAM |
| 18:08.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | CF-27 |
| 18:10.55 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: the P-II will work in stretch current plan, but maybe not after that fi some level of SSE is assumed |
| 18:11.16 | enyc | muep_: rebuild with headers? of libc6 ?? or what? |
| 18:11.26 | DusXMT | enyc: kernel headers |
| 18:11.35 | enyc | muep_: and iptables/ip6tables that messed around in kernel momory =) |
| 18:11.44 | enyc | DusXMT: yes, but rebuild **what** against the older kernel headers |
| 18:11.56 | DusXMT | libc6, of course |
| 18:12.02 | muep_ | enyc: glibc with kernel headers |
| 18:13.02 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: i have some dual-PIII with 1gb ECC ram ... venerable 440BX ... seems so stable and robust !!! seem do hav avoided capacitor plague too! |
| 18:13.08 | DusXMT | (it's interesting that we still call it libc6, to have a compatible name with the "linux libc" from back in the day) |
| 18:15.39 | DusXMT | has one of those small, compacted computers, 900MHz single P-III with 512MB of ram, and I've been putting it through compiling hell (gentoo, guixsd, and then manual compiling of some things in Devuan) and it's withstood it like a champ |
| 18:16.08 | DusXMT | s/and then manual/and now manual/ |
| 18:16.10 | muep_ | The oldest ones I have are some pentium-m ones |
| 18:16.22 | muep_ | also used for compiling source-based distros |
| 18:16.56 | DusXMT | Why do we enjoy torturing the poor things? :) |
| 18:18.09 | enyc | so anyway... |
| 18:18.46 | enyc | any idea how possible it would be to later compile devuan for 486, instead of 686 or 686+SSE , at least a 'stable' release then a buildd run on other packages ? |
| 18:19.25 | enyc | 'what would it take' ? |
| 18:20.38 | muep_ | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap |
| 18:21.03 | minnesotags | DocScrutinizer05; I'm running devuan on my CF-30 centrino2 vpro, formerly a Vista machine. :-D |
| 18:21.51 | enyc | muep_: oooooooooooooo |
| 18:21.52 | minnesotags | Still having problems with both suspending, sleeping, and with the stupid external speaker. My understanding is the speaker is a kernel bug. |
| 18:22.49 | muep_ | enyc: for i486, you might get away without a full bootstrap by just incrementally rebuilding packages with flags that avoid instructions that an i486 CPU would not run |
| 18:22.50 | enyc | muep_: thatkyou for pointer... though I'm currently too braintired to fallow all of it, iwll rethink another day =) core of system could be cross-built ... by looks of thing ... |
| 18:23.25 | enyc | muep_: yes, as ABI change in calling environment etc not needed |
| 18:23.42 | muep_ | but there is some effort in debian to track how it can be bootstrapped, in order to be able to support new architectures as they show up |
| 18:24.03 | enyc | muep_: nods, as that article says |
| 18:33.55 | DusXMT | had to build a bootstrap rust compiler in a virtual machine so he could use it on his pentium 3 machine (it's a self-hosting compiler), so Debian's not the only one slowly dropping support for these things |
| 18:35.19 | DusXMT | Which is kind of interesting, as the 32-bit x86 don't get all that much more powerful. Okay, there's the pentium 4 and some flavors of the Celeron, but still |
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| 18:36.12 | enyc | DusXMT: seems to me theres' a potential ''market'' for devuan-for-486-compatible or-so etc seems like ought to be do-able, question is how much on going build daemon functionality to keep archive built would be needed =) |
| 18:37.13 | enyc | what is the development state of devuan ascii compared to stretch at present ?? |
| 18:38.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't grok where's the trouble to build for 486 (even 386) target. Shouldn't the compiler still know how to do it, even on a i7 platform? |
| 18:39.16 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: probably should, though maybe less tested than it used to |
| 18:39.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 18:39.32 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: im not familiar with building-from-scratch, however |
| 18:40.00 | enyc | DocScrutinizer05: also, there are certain packages (e.g. libssl) that build multiple versions with different optimizations and linker or so selects 'best usable' version at runtime i think |
| 18:40.04 | DusXMT | should probably get a 486 computer for testing one day... though I think I'd need a lot of swap space with such machines |
| 18:40.39 | enyc | DusXMT: typically 486s wouldn't l2-cache more than about 32mb ram i believe |
| 18:41.12 | muep_ | if the compiler knows how i386 code is generated, it does not matter if it is being run on an i7 |
| 18:41.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah packages with optimizations that use the advanced hw are a mess to port to old CPUs |
| 18:41.57 | enyc | DusXMT: make me wonder now, i have a tulup-computers 486 server board somewhere |
| 18:42.17 | muep_ | but I guess the i486 target is getting less and less real-world use so it might have bugs that few people know about |
| 18:42.25 | enyc | exactly |
| 18:43.25 | enyc | i (thought) 386dx original and 486DX were little different, except 386s's always needed external math, and 486sx existed without math too.... |
| 18:45.09 | enyc | linux (used) to have fpu sotware-emulation option but i wouldn't be too bothered by this |
| 18:45.49 | muep_ | it would be better to have the compiler do the software floating point stuff |
| 18:49.30 | enyc | i'm intrigued to see the interest here =) |
| 18:50.07 | enyc | main 'practical stumbling block' i'd see, is kernel versions and minimum-amounts-of-ram compatibility |
| 18:53.40 | DusXMT | Speaking of these machines: gcc-compiled LLVM/Clang compiles LLVM/Clang in 20 hours on my old testing comuter, clang-compiled LLVM/Clang compiles LLVM/Clang in 14 hours... Looks like LLVM/Clang makes better-performing code on the Pentium 3 than gcc =3 (or the LLVM/Clang is written in a way to perform the best when compiled by itself) |
| 18:54.31 | DusXMT | (version 3.8.0, on Devuan) |
| 18:54.35 | enyc | recalls stories of compilers optimizing for performing well in tests =) |
| 18:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | muep_: s/bugs/regressions/ ? |
| 18:55.27 | muep_ | regressions are bugs. but there might also be bugs that concern only new functionality in the compiler |
| 18:55.33 | DusXMT | Yeah, I think the first objective test will be to see if the web browser will perform noticably better when compiled by this clang |
| 18:58.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | muep_: aah yep, new functionality that never been tested with old 486 code |
| 18:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | there might be functions that are not even supported in 486 |
| 19:00.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | since nobody ever bothered to write the "emu code" for this |
| 19:02.51 | muep_ | at some point, fedora was one of few distros targeting i586 as the minimum. then they decided to bump the minimum requirement to i686 and "obscure i586-specific bugs" was cited as one of the reasons to prefer i686 |
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| 19:28.18 | asbesto | YEH |
| 19:28.26 | asbesto | finally installing devuan on a laptop here :D |
| 19:28.34 | asbesto | MSI U100 |
| 19:48.00 | parazyd | asbesto: what's the screen resolution? |
| 19:49.11 | Centurion_Dan | I don't understand why debian continues naming it's x86 arch i386 when it is no longer compatible with the i386. With regards to Devuan, if their is strong interest - and sponsorship to cover the work we could indeed compile for i486 and i586. However to do so we'd need import the complete source archive into gitlab, and currently that is not possible with gitlab. |
| 19:49.35 | parazyd | same reason why they name 64bit amd64 |
| 19:49.47 | parazyd | nnot only amd makes 64bit cpus >.< |
| 19:51.24 | muep_ | it's kind of expensive to change the names |
| 19:52.05 | Centurion_Dan | amd64 is kept as a recognition of the company that dev'd the 64bit instruction set. Using x86-64 would imply that the architecture is a product of intel which is not the case. |
| 19:53.14 | muep_ | I think x86-64 would be a quite vendor neutral name |
| 19:54.01 | muep_ | but also here, changing it from amd64 to x86-64 or whatever would make quite a large amount of unnecessary work for various downstreams and users |
| 19:54.23 | parazyd | uname -m also doesn't spit out amd64 |
| 19:56.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can say that amd64 moniker puzzled me quite a lot, tricking me into choosing i386 instead |
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| 20:00.50 | muep_ | nowadays the debian web page has an item named like "download debian x.y - (32/64-bit PC network installer)" |
| 20:01.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | now maybe I'm the least up-to-date linux user when it comes to such naming stuff, but I'm quite sure people that have no idea about linux will have a hard time picking the right arch when trying to make their way through devuan website |
| 20:02.09 | muep_ | the download page can just avoid using the internal architecture names |
| 20:02.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 20:04.04 | asbesto | I don't remember parazyd |
| 20:04.18 | asbesto | It was my laptop some years ago until I had my thinkpad X201 |
| 20:05.27 | parazyd | ha! x201 also with me |
| 20:05.38 | parazyd | i was wondering because i wanted to compare the two of them |
| 20:05.49 | parazyd | the 10" screen seems interesting |
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| 20:24.12 | Guest4314 | Hello World! |
| 20:26.22 | Inocuous | hello Guest4314 |
| 20:27.01 | Inocuous | I saw a headline earlier how Microsoft was happy about systemd, which makes me all the more anti-systemd, and anti-microsoft. |
| 20:27.54 | Inocuous | Microsoft drove really hard for windows 10 upgrades, that tells me it's rife with privacy invasion software. |
| 20:28.35 | Centurion_Dan | suspects a lot of blackhats are also very happy about systemd - lots of unaudited code... |
| 20:31.56 | Inocuous | I don't know the exactly definistion of a black hat but I think it's bad. And I'm sure they are involved. Why not, it's subversion of the core of the operating system, that's what they want. |
| 20:32.42 | zdzichu | wouldn't Red Hat, Oracle and SUSE audit critical software before including it in their enterprise distros? |
| 20:32.43 | Inocuous | It's really reckless what's happening I think. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, just venting a little. |
| 20:33.29 | fsmithred | Inocuous, you gotta watch old western movies - the good guys weaer white hats and the bad guys wear black hats. |
| 20:33.30 | muep_ | I do not think any general-purpose distro has been doing thorough auditing for included programs |
| 20:33.49 | fsmithred | red looks black in monochrome |
| 20:34.21 | muep_ | even just the kernel is enormous. and also glibc and gcc are of similar scale |
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| 20:36.15 | fsmithred | someone posted a link to a document from redhat where they come right out and say that they want to increase complexity so people will want to buy support. |
| 20:37.16 | zdzichu | fsmithred: that was an interview |
| 20:37.26 | fsmithred | ah, thanks |
| 20:38.49 | asbesto | fantastic |
| 20:38.51 | asbesto | I installed it |
| 20:38.51 | asbesto | :D |
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| 20:39.17 | zdzichu | fsmithred: found it, this one: http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html |
| 20:39.36 | Inocuous | fsmithred, I remember Clint always wore a light colored hat, come to think of it. haha |
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| 21:53.46 | Centurion_Dan | for anybody interested there is a new dbus available in /devuan ascii-proposed repository. I'm keen for a few testers to give it a spin before we move it in to ascii - it hasn't had the testsuite run on it... |
| 22:14.50 | Inocuous | I see XFce has release a newer version of their desktop manager. |
| 22:16.04 | Inocuous | I wonder if it's systemd dependent. They are saying it's their best release |
| 22:17.51 | Inocuous | 4.10 is really easy on my processor but it's not the most appealing desktop, it reminds me of windows 3.1 |
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| 22:26.10 | Lieke | Inocuous: you mean xfce 4.12? see the very end of this page: http://xfce.org/about/tour |
| 22:27.21 | Inocuous | openbsd? Is that good or bad? I don't know. |
| 22:27.37 | Lieke | there is no systemd for bsd, so it's good |
| 22:27.54 | Inocuous | ahh. nice. |
| 22:38.41 | Inocuous | 4.10 is pretty easy on the processor. It has a couple quircks but I'ld be nervous about upgrading. These changes are not likely to be more lean than the older version I suspect. |
| 22:41.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | hands ksx4system a drink |
| 22:42.21 | Inocuous | says pass the bottle please.... |
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| 22:56.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | next drink is on me |
| 23:03.25 | ksx4system | reaches to backpack and takes out another bottle then passing it to DocScrutinizer05 |
| 23:03.26 | ksx4system | lol |
| 23:04.07 | ksx4system | Centurion_Dan: is there jessie-security-proposed yet? |
| 23:04.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | on the taurus |
| 23:04.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | cheers |
| 23:04.48 | Centurion_Dan | ksx4system: jessie-proposed-security |
| 23:05.20 | ksx4system | Centurion_Dan: oh, so it does exist :) I'll update my sources.list then |
| 23:06.24 | ksx4system | W: Failed to fetch http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-proposed-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.77 80] |
| 23:06.27 | ksx4system | meh |
| 23:07.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm |
| 23:08.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 23:08.11 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 23:11.20 | Centurion_Dan | ksx4system: it's only in /devuan - we don't merge the -proposed branches |
| 23:12.40 | Centurion_Dan | so deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-proposed-security main |
| 23:12.54 | Centurion_Dan | oops... |
| 23:13.11 | Centurion_Dan | should be: deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan jessie-proposed-security main |
| 23:13.46 | Centurion_Dan | but there is nothing there yet so it will probably bomb out. |
| 23:14.31 | ksx4system | should I use /merged or /debian for proposed-updates? |
| 23:15.00 | ksx4system | no errors whatsoever when using /merged |
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| 23:17.55 | Centurion_Dan | ksx4system: we don't merge -proposed-updates at the moment... but maybe we should as there is a matching debian mirror for that. |
| 23:18.50 | ksx4system | http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-proposed-updates/main/binary-amd64/ |
| 23:19.17 | ksx4system | ~500k Packages file |
| 23:19.47 | Centurion_Dan | maybe we do then... ;-) |
| 23:20.05 | ksx4system | lol :D |
| 23:21.42 | Centurion_Dan | we also have jessie-proposed and ascii-proposed as in /devuan as scratch spaces for testing packages we are preparing to drop into jessie and ascii directly |
| 23:22.13 | Centurion_Dan | for unstable/ceres we will use either incoming or experimental |
