| 00:11.07 | Inocuous | ouch, nuke and boot. that's serious. |
| 00:18.40 | SuicideJunkie | Debian started breaking things, the migration didn't unbreak them, and I don't want to spend too much time poking and prodding with systemd in the mix still. |
| 00:22.08 | Inocuous | so what are you running now? Are you trying to switch to Devuan? |
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| 01:19.28 | SJ-netbook | I made a USB stick from the netinst iso, but it says isolinux.bin missing or corrupt on boot. Is there something obvious I'm forgetting? I set the partition boot flag and then dd'ed the iso onto it. |
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| 01:25.17 | Chanku | Hey |
| 01:26.12 | SJ-netbook | Hi |
| 01:29.12 | Chanku | So... |
| 01:29.42 | Chanku | someone made a few suggestions on the Mailing List |
| 01:30.28 | Chanku | Among them remapping Caps lock to Control, Terminating x through control-alt-backspace, Disabling Print key, and would like no Display Manager by default :/ |
| 01:31.02 | golinux | I just answered that email. |
| 01:31.44 | Chanku | I really should move away from Gmail :/ |
| 01:33.59 | Chanku | But yeah... |
| 01:34.12 | SJ-netbook | Ah, right. DD the iso to the disk, not the partition... that works better |
| 01:34.41 | Chanku | Honestly I can only really see option 2 as really being useful to me |
| 01:35.21 | SJ-netbook | Option 1 and 3 would make it a bit unusable to anyone not expecting it. |
| 01:35.21 | Chanku | I use vim, but I have never changed caps lock to control |
| 01:35.26 | Chanku | yeah |
| 01:35.43 | Chanku | I could live without 3, but I would rather it not |
| 01:35.54 | Chanku | and I don't really like the idea of 4... |
| 01:36.18 | SJ-netbook | Er, 1 and 4 I mean. |
| 01:36.39 | Chanku | While I prefer installing minimal installs on computers, and then installing everything else that I need as I need it, when I first started the lack of a Display Manager would have sent me away from Debian/Devuan |
| 01:36.39 | SJ-netbook | What's the print key thing about? PrtScrn? |
| 01:36.44 | Chanku | I think |
| 01:37.07 | Chanku | in any case, if it weren't for Display Managers I wouldn't have tried out OpenBox and later kept with it, and then moved to i3 (where I am now...) |
| 01:41.29 | Chanku | I learned the command prompt by learning as I went along |
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| 01:47.36 | Chanku | golinux what did you mean when you asked: "...is REISUB enabled by default in devuan?" |
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| 01:53.46 | SJ-netbook | Is there any point to keeping atimes? |
| 01:53.59 | Chanku | atimes? |
| 01:54.37 | SJ-netbook | I want to tick off the noatime option since I'm fairly sure atimes are pointless for me, not sure if there is a catch. |
| 01:55.07 | SJ-netbook | file access time updates, as on the filesystem flags during partitioning |
| 01:55.37 | Chanku | huh... |
| 01:55.38 | Chanku | shrugs |
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| 02:00.49 | SJ-netbook | Eh, worst case I just reinstall tomorrow |
| 02:01.08 | SJ-netbook | best case, performance bosot |
| 02:01.11 | SJ-netbook | *boost |
| 02:01.40 | Chanku | okay |
| 02:05.53 | golinux | Chanku: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=REISUB |
| 02:08.52 | Chanku | Ah alright |
| 02:08.57 | Chanku | so the Magic SysRq key? |
| 02:09.03 | Chanku | If so then it seems like it does |
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| 02:49.22 | Chanku | Defeated a third robot master! |
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| 07:32.01 | Centurion_Dan | SJ-netbook: I always turn it off. The only thing it effects is the tracking of applications used by popularity-contest. |
| 07:32.22 | Centurion_Dan | probably not such a big performance hit on SSD |
| 07:33.48 | Centurion_Dan | drives.. but other then that and some ancient email clients that used it to determine if a mail has been read or not on a local mail spool, it's entirely a waste of i/o badnwidth |
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| 10:00.25 | SJ-netbook | Good to know, Centurion_Dan. Software load failed on the first try, but I retried and it worked on the second pass. Internet glitch I suppose. |
| 10:01.23 | dave24 | where do I start reading about how to maintain devuan packages. I can't seem to find anything concrete and the "Maintain Packages" link here is broken: https://devuan.org/toc |
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| 10:34.49 | antofox | morning guys |
| 10:40.44 | hellekin | dave24: there's no guide yet. Please refer to the Debian Maintainer Guide but be aware that the processes will be different |
| 10:42.01 | dave24 | hellekin: ok thanks |
| 10:43.11 | antofox | there is a team working for the mate-desktop? if you how can I help? |
| 10:47.31 | hellekin | antofox: there's a discussion on talk: https://talk.devuan.org/search?q=mate |
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| 11:02.23 | antofox | thank hellikin |
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| 11:32.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | the foundation constitution document is prolly the wrong place, where to should go a specific advice to only use dl_open() when accessing any systemd stuff? |
| 11:32.31 | Centurion_Dan | SJ-netbook: see https://git.devuan.org/fritsd/builders-howto |
| 11:33.16 | Centurion_Dan | DocScrutinizer05: ?? |
| 11:33.42 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: I've never seen this doc before |
| 11:34.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: no package should have a linker dependency to libsystemd or other systemd stuff, rather use dl_open() and handle non-existing libsystemd gracefully |
| 11:34.23 | SJ-netbook | requires a login? |
| 11:36.07 | Centurion_Dan | SJ-netbook: oops should have been for dave24. |
| 11:36.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: only exception: stuff that clearly won't work when systemd not installed, like err journalctl |
| 11:36.20 | Centurion_Dan | dave24: ^^ |
| 11:37.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: what do you think about this approach? |
| 11:37.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it would allow generic packages again that work unpatched on both devuan and debian |
| 11:39.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | no package maintainer could reasonably reject such patch to use dl_open() |
| 11:39.10 | dave24 | Centurion_Dan: thanks! |
| 11:39.34 | Centurion_Dan | DocScrutinizer05: i suspect that some packages that can get away with dl_open() do already, and the rest that use something more in libsystemd0 already depend on it... although I've seen some pretty lame excuses of dependency on libsystemd0 already... |
| 11:40.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | it seems like a good lever to force more systemd-independence into all linux |
| 11:41.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | a generic way that all packages that want to use systemd stuff ought go |
| 11:41.54 | Centurion_Dan | overall it's usually not the upstream devs so much as some particular debian packagers that have a particular fixation of making everything depend on systemd |
| 11:42.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck we prolly even could provide lib shims that do the dl_open() and provide the genuine libsystemd calls to the app |
| 11:43.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | just link against libsystemd-optional instead against libsystemd |
| 11:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course your app still needs to handle failure to call libsystemd functions then, gracefully |
| 11:44.29 | Centurion_Dan | but it falls down on having to reimplement libsystemd0's interfaces. Better just keep cleansing the packages properly and ensure that upstreams maintain build options for non-systemd systems |
| 11:44.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless it's actually only about sd_notify() call which may fail unnoticed and nobody would care# |
| 11:45.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | build options sound nasty |
| 11:47.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | #include libsystemd-optional; if !sdo_notify() {printf(%s, "we have no libsystemd to notify, so now we gonna do something sane and e.g. do s SIGUSR ow whatever instead"); ...; } |
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| 11:50.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course libsystemd-optional has _no_ hard dependency on libsystemd since it uses dl_open() instead |
| 11:52.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | on kernel domain the mantra is "NO build options! everything needs to get evaluated at runtime". Why should a simple userland app break this approach for systemd? |
| 11:53.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | I would understand build options for kernel, not so for userland stuff |
| 11:55.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey! X-P let's patch libsystemd itself |
| 11:56.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems we're almost there already, no? |
| 11:58.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly would like to see Poettering's face when he reads a patch that makes libsystemd just behave and do nothing when the rest of the systemd cancer isn't installed. Or maybe it looks to some config flag in environment, just return each call with error -ENOSYSTEMDSYSTEM when there's a env var $SYSTEMD=no |
| 12:09.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | this would break the painful chain of dependencies not on app level but at libsystemd level since libsystemd should not depend on (and thus inevitably import) the rest of all the systemd cancer |
| 12:10.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | just like devuan's libsystemd shim does now, AIUI |
| 12:12.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | disclaimer: I didn't look in _any_ of the related code yet |
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| 12:55.20 | Chanku | Hi |
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| 13:24.33 | dave24 | 2 |
| 13:24.51 | dave24 | -.- laggy kbd |
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| 13:58.51 | penelopa | hi! good day! |
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| 17:19.56 | Inocuous | greetings people. |
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| 20:31.11 | *** topic/#devuan is Devuan discussion channel - Beta is out https://www.devuan.org - forum on https://talk.devuan.org - irc logs https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/ - Please take offtopic discussion to #debianfork |
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| 21:46.23 | enyc | Inocuous: greetings reply =), lots do exist .... |
| 21:49.11 | enyc | hrrm.. a package's build-dependency on dh-systemd , presumably is harmless?, just means that package can provide a systemd start script (as well as sysvinit and upstart in this case) |
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| 22:49.56 | Inocuous | I read an article about debian/devuan the other day. The writer seemed skeptical of the success of devuan. I think he's probally out of touch with the base users. |
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| 23:42.48 | Antofox | inocuous: I think otherwise, will be successful :D |
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| 23:50.49 | SuicideJunkie | Well, one day of downtime, but my system is back and better than ever :) Thanks yall! |
| 23:51.27 | ksx4system | SuicideJunkie: enjoy Devuan :D |
| 23:57.47 | SuicideJunkie | Pretty sure I will :) |