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| 09:05.10 | TXX | Yo general question, how do i list option flags in a ./configure script? Trying to repackage a piece of software without some feature |
| 09:07.08 | dave24 | TXX: just put: ./configure --my-cool-option --prefix=/opt/local |
| 09:07.45 | dave24 | to view available options use "./configure --help" |
| 09:07.55 | TXX | dave24: --disable-FEATURE do not include FEATURE (same as --enable-FEATURE=no) |
| 09:08.18 | TXX | from the help menu, not the best piece of software i've found |
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| 09:59.45 | jsfarinet | Hi all! |
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| 11:07.15 | rafalcpp | hi jsfarinet |
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| 11:16.54 | jaromil | http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan (and say happy 15th birthday to Distrowatch!) |
| 11:20.47 | rafalcpp | btw, could it be true that Debian Woman or alike are responsible for SystemD in Debian? |
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| 11:51.13 | KatolaZ | jaromil: let's see how long does it take to Devuan to move form the bottom of the ladder in distrowatch |
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| 12:23.03 | hellekin | rafalcpp: what? |
| 12:26.21 | djph | hellekin: I think he is/was drunk, and it's best to ignore that comment. |
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| 12:31.32 | hellekin | yeah |
| 12:52.30 | rafalcpp | djph: nope |
| 12:52.49 | rafalcpp | well, what then is the reason that Debian given up on common sense and want full systemd? |
| 12:53.21 | rafalcpp | I read there was some change in leadership, that halped to swing the technical resolution voting thing to systemd |
| 12:53.27 | rafalcpp | *helped |
| 12:55.11 | djph | "went batshit crazy" is a fair reason, I think. |
| 12:55.36 | rafalcpp | all the leaders that let the comunity in good direction suddenly want batshit crazy? |
| 12:55.43 | rafalcpp | *that led |
| 12:58.37 | djph | I think they moved to Devuan ... |
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| 13:46.45 | rafalcpp | djph: well majority of leaders apparently voted for systemd, otherwise that vote would lose |
| 13:46.56 | MinceR | not exactly |
| 13:46.57 | rafalcpp | even if they later moved, what happened |
| 13:47.10 | MinceR | at least iirc the TC vote was decided by one vote |
| 13:47.15 | Wizzup | There are huge mailing threads on it, all public, why don't you review them and see? |
| 13:47.20 | rafalcpp | bascially I'm interested how similar problem will be avoided here |
| 13:47.21 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: there was no decision "pro" systemd |
| 13:47.23 | Wizzup | It's was a close call. |
| 13:48.00 | rafalcpp | if in 1,2 or 5 years there will be another controversial decission, how is Devuan hoping to pick a better one (and by what standards, what is "better") |
| 13:48.06 | KatolaZ | this is the result |
| 13:48.08 | KatolaZ | https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003#outcome |
| 13:48.40 | KatolaZ | the official outcome was "a GR is not needed to decide technical stuff" |
| 13:49.29 | KatolaZ | so there was no "yes, let's have systemd in" |
| 13:49.31 | KatolaZ | officially |
| 13:49.45 | KatolaZ | and yes, it was a very close call with the second option |
| 13:50.01 | KatolaZ | "support for other init systems is recommended, but not mandatory" |
| 13:50.29 | KatolaZ | we can't subvert history, and we shouldn't |
| 13:50.36 | rafalcpp | ok I see |
| 13:50.58 | rafalcpp | then who said let's switch to systemd by default, it was "vote" by some smaller working group? |
| 13:51.07 | KatolaZ | the technical commitee |
| 13:51.17 | KatolaZ | on another close call |
| 13:51.22 | KatolaZ | which was basically a tie |
| 13:51.33 | KatolaZ | dcided by the vote of the coordinator |
| 13:51.54 | rafalcpp | how such outcome would be avoided if now Devuan would be faced with such issue? |
| 13:52.11 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: why do you bother my friend? |
| 13:52.20 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 13:52.33 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: well if I would switch, then switching to something better is good |
| 13:52.44 | KatolaZ | we should have first a distro, and then a management system for it |
| 13:52.48 | KatolaZ | but distro comes first |
| 13:52.56 | rafalcpp | I assume by definition Devuan will not pick systemd, which is good for me. And what about any other similar issues? |
| 13:53.02 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: better is a subjective concept |
| 13:53.32 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: indeed. So did you concluded what goals you have in general, other then "not have systemd"? |
| 13:53.46 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: ? |
| 13:54.00 | KatolaZ | have you seen www.devuan.org? |
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| 13:55.46 | djph | I always thought the devuan goal was to 'keep a free (as in freedom) base' |
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| 14:03.55 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: https://www.devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ |
| 14:04.28 | KatolaZ | Devuan aims to be a base distribution whose mission is to put the freedom of |
| 14:04.29 | KatolaZ | users: to be intended as developers, sysadmins and in general tech-savvy |
| 14:04.29 | KatolaZ | people, as the majority of Debian users are. Among the priorities are: |
| 14:04.29 | KatolaZ | enable diversity, interoperability and backward compatibility for the |
| 14:04.29 | KatolaZ | existing Debian downstream willing to preserve Init Freedom and avoid the |
| 14:04.31 | KatolaZ | opaque and homogenizing systemd avalanche. |
| 14:05.02 | KatolaZ | .... |
| 14:05.07 | KatolaZ | Devuan will do its best to stay minimal and abide to the UNIX philosophy of |
| 14:05.08 | KatolaZ | "doing one thing and doing it well". It will foster diversity and freedom of |
| 14:05.08 | KatolaZ | choice among all its components and will perceive itself not as an end |
| 14:05.08 | KatolaZ | product, but as a a process, a starting point for developers, a viable base |
| 14:05.08 | KatolaZ | for sysadmins and a stable tool for people who have enough experience with |
| 14:05.10 | KatolaZ | computers. Devuan will never compromise for more efficiency at the cost of |
| 14:05.12 | KatolaZ | the freedom of its users, rather than leave that and the responsibility for |
| 14:05.15 | KatolaZ | a secure setup to downstream developers. |
| 14:06.36 | rafalcpp | sounds quite good |
| 14:06.49 | rafalcpp | let's say I would like to provide a newer gcc package for devuan |
| 14:07.17 | rafalcpp | currently I build own gcc from source, I could learn how to make a propar package, how likely would it be to be accepted |
| 14:07.30 | djph | rafalcpp: go for it. just don't depend on systemd ;) |
| 14:07.48 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: do you want to make a package or you want it to be accepted? :) |
| 14:07.56 | rafalcpp | that is, I propose it as say gcc-5.0 (and regular gcc would be still gcc-4.9 to not break stuff) |
| 14:08.07 | KatolaZ | I wouldn't care that much about "getting accepted" |
| 14:08.30 | TXX | phew, just had to battle with deb packing in dpatch format |
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| 14:08.38 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: it would be cool if it would be accepted, so that it would be hosted on devuan servers, and so that maybe other people in here would help to maintain such "newer gcc" when I don't have time |
| 14:08.49 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: go on |
| 14:08.52 | KatolaZ | get the package |
| 14:08.55 | KatolaZ | get it working |
| 14:09.00 | KatolaZ | get people use it |
| 14:09.17 | Irrwahn | Gcc 5.3.1 is already in Devuan, so what's the point? |
| 14:10.34 | KatolaZ | Irrwahn: it's in Ascii, isn't it? |
| 14:10.41 | Irrwahn | Of course. |
| 14:10.44 | Irrwahn | Jessi is approaching beta2, so it's frozen. |
| 14:11.36 | jaromil | i smell mikeusa |
| 14:14.36 | rafalcpp | Irrwahn: oh cool. well, then such problem but for some other packages |
| 14:14.40 | rafalcpp | would that be possible? |
| 14:15.21 | Irrwahn | You should first check what's already in testing and unstable. |
| 14:15.23 | rafalcpp | I guess backports do help |
| 14:16.12 | TXX | i am confused rafalcpp, why'd you wanna supply a GCC package? GCC comes from upstream GCC releases, and are patched/packaged |
| 14:16.40 | rafalcpp | TXX: gc 4.9.2 as default in debian jessie, is too old for some things |
| 14:17.18 | rafalcpp | looking at other packages, that is also usuall thing people complain about in Debian "package FOO tha I need for work is 1 year old, omg" |
| 14:19.05 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: if they complain. they should use another distro |
| 14:19.10 | KatolaZ | or use testing |
| 14:20.00 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: using testing = then everything break and they complain more |
| 14:20.04 | KatolaZ | I personally would like Devuan to remain free of hipsterisms |
| 14:20.06 | rafalcpp | yes, then they often go to other distro |
| 14:20.09 | TXX | rafalcpp: i can see that you might want to build a newer gcc package for your self, to use in development. But that only makes sense if you need some of the newest features in GCC, something that you can't get in testing, unstable. |
| 14:20.41 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: evidently you haven't used Debian testing in the past |
| 14:20.41 | KatolaZ | since I haven't seen all this breakage |
| 14:20.41 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: what do you mean hipsterism ;) 1 year old for tool you need for work as main tool, is often bad |
| 14:20.46 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: go use another distro |
| 14:20.55 | TXX | rafalcpp: depends on view. 1 year old usually means "proven" |
| 14:20.59 | KatolaZ | nobody forces you using debin/devuan |
| 14:21.33 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: in any case, again, I haven;t seen any major breakage in testing |
| 14:21.41 | KatolaZ | and I have been using it in production servers |
| 14:21.43 | KatolaZ | for years |
| 14:21.54 | KatolaZ | so I don't know what you are talking about |
| 14:21.54 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: well I have |
| 14:22.27 | rafalcpp | also, with testing usuall response in #debian is that we do not support that - you should had used stable ;)) |
| 14:22.39 | KatolaZ | and that's correct |
| 14:22.44 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 14:22.55 | rafalcpp | other distro... ok so let's take say Mint. And then fork it to some Mintuan - without systemd |
| 14:23.05 | KatolaZ | go, do it :) |
| 14:23.07 | rafalcpp | it starts to be a problem if you see where this is going |
| 14:23.27 | KatolaZ | I have problems seeing what's your point anyway |
| 14:24.21 | rafalcpp | KatolaZ: that debian was somewhat dissapointing in handling situation where users in general want stable, but need few packeges in new versions (and would rather not build everything from source themselves) - and maybe Devuan could do something better here |
| 14:25.00 | KatolaZ | rafalcpp: I think that if people need to stay on an bleeding edge distribution they should not use Debian/Devuan |
| 14:25.19 | Irrwahn | A stable distribution, or bleeding edge software. Pick one, you cannot have both. |
| 14:25.27 | KatolaZ | there are plenty of distros which release every six months |
| 14:25.28 | KatolaZ | or less |
| 14:25.49 | KatolaZ | go choose one of those, if you need bleeding-edge stuff |
| 14:26.25 | KatolaZ | now sorry I have |
| 14:26.28 | KatolaZ | work to do |
| 14:26.31 | MinceR | it's possible to install bleeding edge software on top of a stable distribution though :> |
| 14:26.33 | rafalcpp | Irrwahn: why not have both, stable for entire system, and new (not bleeding-edge, but like 3-6 month old) for few packages. Actually backports in general do that right? |
| 14:26.38 | MinceR | via nix, chroots or building from source |
| 14:27.05 | Irrwahn | MinceR: But that might compromise its stability. That'S exactly the point. :> |
| 14:27.21 | Irrwahn | rafalcpp: Right, pick some semi-rolling based on De[vu|bi]an testing, and you get the best compromise possible, IMHO. |
| 14:27.21 | MinceR | indeed |
| 14:28.02 | TXX | rafalcpp: if you want some super bleeding edge super fast, possibly unstable, try void linux |
| 14:28.12 | TXX | Debian is all about that history |
| 14:28.13 | Irrwahn | Want stable - pick stable. Want latest - pick testing. |
| 14:30.22 | Irrwahn | NB: Pulling everything plus the kitchen sink in backports would defathe |
| 14:30.35 | Irrwahn | defeat the whole purpose of a stable suite |
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| 15:40.54 | figlfdev | o/ golinux, fsmithred, all |
| 15:41.07 | fsmithred | hi |
| 15:42.23 | golinux | Good morning! |
| 15:42.59 | MinceR | moaning |
| 15:42.59 | figlfdev | morning |
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| 15:44.48 | golinux | rafalcpp: Just now reading the scrollback. http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 |
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| 15:51.20 | golinux | figlfdev: Did you see this? https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160531.095720.784504b2.en.html |
| 15:56.12 | figlfdev | brb |
| 15:56.34 | figlfdev | oh! |
| 15:56.53 | figlfdev | theres no reason they shouldnt be able to register, unless they site is having issues. |
| 15:56.58 | figlfdev | *the |
| 15:58.08 | figlfdev | i dont think it even takes an email, though its obviously been a while since i tried |
| 16:00.04 | figlfdev | of course i will link the voat user to the reply. im *very* sorry that aitor couldnt register, thats a loss |
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| 16:07.53 | Lydia_K | Wow, that post on the debian forums was really well done. |
| 16:09.00 | figlfdev | which post? |
| 16:09.08 | figlfdev | oh, nm |
| 16:10.44 | figlfdev | yeah, revisionist history really pisses me off. i feel like most of the "open source" fud is an alternative version of history designed to confuse people |
| 16:11.19 | figlfdev | most of the people that spread this alternative (tweaked, fabricated) version do it innocently, unaware of the facts |
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| 16:11.50 | figlfdev | and what it all has in common is making "open source" look more important than free software. hi furrywolf |
| 16:12.20 | Lydia_K | Very true figlfdev |
| 16:12.55 | figlfdev | i really love <3 that perens himself fights this fud. i know he himself never intended it. hes good people |
| 16:14.15 | figlfdev | "its time to talk about free software again" https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/02/msg01641.html |
| 16:18.47 | KatolaZ | figlfdev: unfortunately that post came a bit too late |
| 16:19.24 | KatolaZ | I agree with Perens' intentions, but OpenSource has diverged more and more from his intentions |
| 16:19.44 | KatolaZ | and has gone more the way Eric Raymond wanted it to go |
| 16:19.47 | figlfdev | yeah, i consider it hostile. i once wrote an angry email to rms to complain about how nasty they were getting |
| 16:20.19 | KatolaZ | who are "they"? :D |
| 16:20.20 | figlfdev | which is sort of like complaining to nikola tesla about what a backstabber edison is |
| 16:20.41 | KatolaZ | ok I see now :D |
| 16:20.41 | figlfdev | they: open source upper-mgmt, osi, oss fanboys |
| 16:20.49 | KatolaZ | yep, I got it |
| 16:21.08 | KatolaZ | anyway, there is little we can do about that |
| 16:21.14 | KatolaZ | unfortunately |
| 16:21.25 | figlfdev | i started as an open source guy, > 10 years ago. "its more 'reasonable' than free software" or "the same only better" |
| 16:21.54 | figlfdev | but i studied, hard. and i realized they were revising history. but not before i spent months and months trying to sort out two different agendas |
| 16:22.07 | KatolaZ | figlfdev: :) |
| 16:22.17 | figlfdev | "compromise principles all the way to a larger userbase!" <- the essence of modern oss |
| 16:22.30 | djph | everyone has their agendas :/ |
| 16:22.34 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 16:22.42 | figlfdev | thats not untrue |
| 16:22.49 | djph | figlfdev: I think that was kind of the essence of "oss" in general |
| 16:22.55 | KatolaZ | well, I believe it took time to everyone to realise the difference |
| 16:23.32 | figlfdev | i think theyve done free software a service, but i think theyve done a greater disservice. i suppose only time will tell. |
| 16:23.48 | figlfdev | either way i dont like the games they play |
| 16:24.25 | djph | KatolaZ: figlfdev ... yeah, I didn't see a "difference" in "oss" or "free software" for a long time myself ... |
| 16:24.49 | KatolaZ | djph: I was also a bit critic towards rms, until I met him |
| 16:24.53 | figlfdev | i should point out, although i tend to agree that rms tends to be right about everything in the long run... |
| 16:25.05 | KatolaZ | and realised how pure his intents were |
| 16:25.21 | figlfdev | the one thing that i cant abide (and helped get me into debian) is his stance on cc by-nc-nd. |
| 16:25.33 | figlfdev | i think cultural works are "software for wetware." |
| 16:26.32 | figlfdev | i dont agree that "political works" should have / require verbatim licenses. i think the distinction is artificial, he is tivo-izing the free culture movement. but thats hardcore free-ism... i tried arguing with him about it and you can imagine how that went. |
| 16:26.57 | KatolaZ | well, what I appreciate of rms is that he lives to the standards he has set |
| 16:27.03 | figlfdev | he does. |
| 16:27.08 | KatolaZ | whatever the cost of it |
| 16:28.21 | figlfdev | i also see the value of copyleft (its probably ideal for the kernel and userspace) but i use permissive (gpl-compatible) licenses for my own stuff. |
| 16:28.43 | KatolaZ | I see very much the point of copyleft |
| 16:29.08 | figlfdev | me too. and im certainly not against it. but i use cc0 on pretty much everything. |
| 16:29.19 | figlfdev | only cc license that is gpl compatible |
| 16:29.30 | figlfdev | and really a public domain dedication. but eh |
| 16:32.14 | djph | i prefer gpl (v2) for stuff I write ... not really sure about v3 |
| 16:32.26 | djph | ... not that I write much of anything. |
| 16:33.08 | KatolaZ | djph: in 99.5% of the cases, there would be no difference at all between v2 and v3 anyway |
| 16:33.11 | figlfdev | i see the merits of v3. unfortunately torvalds did a pretty good job of turning people off it. i think bsd is a little too hostile towards copyleft, but its because they believe in something else. |
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| 16:33.50 | figlfdev | v3 is probably better overall, but they did a poor jobo of selling it to people that would be difficult to sell it to. so only "beleivers" and people that have no choice use it |
| 16:34.39 | djph | yeah, that's kind of what I figured with it ... haven't really sat down with it to grok it, so don't use it |
| 16:35.12 | KatolaZ | well, most of gpl-ed software can in principle be redistributed with gplv3 anyway |
| 16:35.34 | KatolaZ | due to the "or, at your option, any later version." clause :) |
| 16:35.52 | figlfdev | the main things are: anti-tivoization (fix a weakness in copyleft that tivo exploits) and relaxing penalties for gpl violators. there are a few other features |
| 16:35.59 | figlfdev | KatolaZ: yep |
| 16:38.03 | furrywolf | why would you want to relax penalties? they need to be stronger. heh. |
| 16:38.14 | KatolaZ | furrywolf: indeed! |
| 16:38.43 | *** join/#devuan figlfdev (183e6d83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.62.109.131) |
| 16:40.20 | furrywolf | I want a clause that says that if any open-source software is used at any point in the development process, the final result must also be open-source and/or creative commons licensed (for non-software works), under penalty of being locked in a box with a bunch of hungry rats. |
| 16:41.46 | Lydia_K | LOL! |
| 16:41.50 | Lydia_K | I like the way you think furrywolf |
| 16:45.14 | MinceR | that's animal abuse |
| 16:45.16 | figlfdev | "if any open-source software is used at any point in the development process, the final result must also be open-source" i know youre kidding, but this is Literally Impossible |
| 16:45.29 | figlfdev | it violates freedom 0, and therefore contradicts itself |
| 16:45.37 | MinceR | it's also in conflict with the definitions of open source and free software |
| 16:45.43 | figlfdev | MinceR: exactly |
| 16:46.11 | figlfdev | figures that furrywolf probably knows that though |
| 16:46.35 | fsmithred | whew! I read that and my heart started racing. |
| 16:47.02 | figlfdev | fsmithred: sometimes the osi blog says stuff close to that |
| 16:47.36 | fsmithred | I think my head would implode if I read a whole blog like that. |
| 16:47.42 | figlfdev | "its not really 'open source' unless theres a clause that everyone MUST have an engraved invitation and automatically generated account to particpate in editing" |
| 16:48.11 | fsmithred | lol |
| 16:48.35 | figlfdev | they just make stuff up, fortunately it never gets past the blog. i mean their blog is kind of like wikipedia. |
| 16:48.46 | fsmithred | they want me to edit their code on their server? |
| 16:49.39 | figlfdev | you have to, because otherwise youre a "freeloader." money or code, pay up! |
| 16:49.59 | figlfdev | isnt making that one up. but its old/outdated rhetoric (hopefully) |
| 16:50.13 | fsmithred | I could maybe barter some other service. |
| 16:50.21 | KatolaZ | well figlfdev, it's all upside-down then |
| 16:50.38 | figlfdev | KatolaZ: thats about the size of it |
| 16:50.46 | KatolaZ | you are not even forced to redistribute the changes you make to OpenSource code |
| 16:50.58 | KatolaZ | if you keep them for you, you can do whatever you want |
| 16:51.01 | fsmithred | and all joking aside, I have contributed code to the community because I wanted to give back |
| 16:51.04 | KatolaZ | even with gpl-ed software |
| 16:51.16 | KatolaZ | you can also mix it with non-free or proprietary software |
| 16:51.27 | figlfdev | fsmithred: me too. it just amuses me the way theyre always toying with the definition of "open source." |
| 16:51.28 | KatolaZ | compile with proprietary libraries |
| 16:51.30 | KatolaZ | and the like |
| 16:51.40 | KatolaZ | as long as you don't redistribute it |
| 16:51.41 | figlfdev | "those who dont understand free software are doomed to reimplement it-- poorly." |
| 16:51.42 | KatolaZ | :) |
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| 16:53.10 | furrywolf | seriously, I wouldn't mind additional restrictions on using open-source software in otherwise-proprietary applications. There's too many companies using open source software as fundamental parts of their platforms, but then only releasing the source to the non-modified open-source parts, and none of the code they wrote. they're profiteering without contributing. |
| 16:53.48 | figlfdev | i shouldnt even say the "definition" -- because afaik the osd doesnt change much. but the osi blog occasionally reads like the surviors of the golgafrincham b ark. "do people want fire to be fitted nasally?" |
| 16:55.46 | figlfdev | this has higher costs than benefits is the thing-> "I wouldn't mind additional restrictions on using open-source software in otherwise-proprietary applications." |
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| 16:56.18 | figlfdev | agpl is a good example. and by "costs" i mean "it takes something that works about as well as it can, and reduces how well it works" |
| 16:56.56 | figlfdev | im not against agpl, its a fine idea. but if it turns already-free software with 10 users/authors into 1 or 2 and falls off the earth, thats not progress |
| 16:57.23 | figlfdev | open source goes the other way: it simply throws the importance of freedom into the back seat, and gains windows users. |
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| 16:59.48 | figlfdev | i dont think free software will survive (long) without free/libre hardware, because hardware is subsuming software functionality (like smm and anti-malware functions, not to mention the tc discussion in here the other day) |
| 17:00.03 | furrywolf | it's not hardware, it's firmware, which is software. |
| 17:00.36 | figlfdev | furrywolf: we can debate that, you can even win. but imo microcode is a hardware implementation. |
| 17:00.49 | figlfdev | so i would say its firmware and hardware that are the issue. |
| 17:01.07 | figlfdev | but where is the microcode loaded from? so you may be right after all. its complicated though, we can agree on that? |
| 17:02.20 | figlfdev | i mean x86 is hardware design. so microcode support is hardware design. but the code is firmware (please correct me if possible) |
| 17:03.07 | figlfdev | its stuff like having a decicated aux cpu that the os cant access that really creeps me out. |
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| 17:19.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's www.gpl-violations.org for the above mentioned issues with companies |
| 17:22.47 | djph | figlfdev: identify the problem, and route around it? |
| 17:23.34 | figlfdev | djph: if the problem is what is doing the routing, the CURRENT way is (possibly) to put in firmware that doesnt support the system management engine. |
| 17:23.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((decicated aux cpu that the os cant access)) you got dozens of those, without even ever knowing |
| 17:23.45 | figlfdev | but they could change the design to make that impossible |
| 17:24.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is exactly where FSF fails with their RYF cert |
| 17:24.06 | figlfdev | DocScrutinizer05: i really believe that ultimately we will need free/libre hardware. if there is an easier way, thats great. |
| 17:24.28 | figlfdev | well ryf is young (and naive) but its still a good idea imo. just the implementation needs work |
| 17:24.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 17:24.40 | figlfdev | ive never HEARD of gpl version 1, incidentally... |
| 17:25.42 | djph | was the original license emacs (and a few other things) were released under at MIT, IIRC |
| 17:25.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://gpl-violations.org/about/ |
| 17:26.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~seen laf0rge |
| 17:26.50 | infobot | i haven't seen 'laf0rge', DocScrutinizer05 |
| 17:26.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 17:28.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway >>By June 2006, the project has hit the magic "100 cases finished" mark, at an exciting equal "100% legal success" mark<< |
| 17:29.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas tivoization is no GPL infringement |
| 17:29.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least not of GPLv2 |
| 17:29.34 | figlfdev | i think tivoization was the biggest problem, until secure boot came along |
| 17:29.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, sounds like it's the same shit with different name |
| 17:31.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui both restrict the system's functionality as soon as you change a single bit in kernel |
| 17:32.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe they differ a bit on what exactly those restrictions are |
| 17:33.00 | figlfdev | i guess fascism and trotskyism arent the same thing |
| 17:33.09 | figlfdev | but theyre both undesirable |
| 17:34.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are both same shit though, eben when they are different things maybe |
| 17:34.29 | figlfdev | tivoization is mostly about license-clause-skirting. but where it comes into play (in the tivo) is a bootloader/firmware, which also where secure boot causes problems |
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| 17:34.38 | figlfdev | theyre definitely on a related note. |
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| 17:36.05 | figlfdev | if tivo didnt abuse gpl-licensed software to make things that were less free, there would still be the issue that they use any kind of software (even their own) to restrict the user |
| 17:36.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | fascism and trotskyism are both totalitarian, tivoization and secureboot both are locked concepts |
| 17:36.41 | figlfdev | ironically, they could use ram instead of nand flash and then it would be ok, provided they used their own design instead of one that was gpl-licensed. |
| 17:36.54 | figlfdev | "fascism and trotskyism are both totalitarian, tivoization and secureboot both are locked concepts" <- 100% in agreement |
| 17:37.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | all four are shit ;-) |
| 17:37.45 | figlfdev | s/ram/rom/ |
| 17:37.57 | figlfdev | though ram would surely be part of it :) |
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| 18:22.40 | *** join/#devuan rain1 (~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1) |
| 18:24.54 | rain1 | jaromil: he/lo |
| 18:31.19 | jaromil | hi |
| 18:32.08 | rain1 | i learned about you though sup , did you invent the fork bomb?? |
| 18:32.27 | figlfdev | fork bomb is ages old |
| 18:33.01 | figlfdev | it looks like emoticons to me |
| 18:33.14 | jaromil | solleticons |
| 18:33.45 | jaromil | i'm afraid this is not a fan channel :^) |
| 18:33.48 | jaromil | did you tried devuan? |
| 18:33.54 | rain1 | me? |
| 18:33.57 | jaromil | y |
| 18:34.01 | rain1 | no |
| 18:34.07 | figlfdev | good luck kicking (all) your fans out though |
| 18:34.11 | jaromil | ok well that's what this channell is about |
| 18:34.23 | figlfdev | is a fan, despite being previously miffed about isos being gone |
| 18:34.31 | jaromil | miffed ahahahahaha |
| 18:34.40 | figlfdev | well... |
| 18:34.53 | figlfdev | ok so i get that bandwidth isnt as much as youd like to have yet. |
| 18:35.10 | figlfdev | but can we agree that you cant say "lts" if the iso disappears (and i know beta != lts) |
| 18:36.23 | figlfdev | also i finally got beta installed. and i guess the signing issue is the core of the matter. until beta 2 all isos are "netinst." |
| 18:36.24 | jaromil | the bottleneck is storage space |
| 18:36.37 | jaromil | we have unlimited bandwidth from digitalocean |
| 18:36.40 | jaromil | they like us :^) |
| 18:36.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/bandwidth/traffic/ |
| 18:37.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | unlimted bandwidth would be really great ;-) |
| 18:37.08 | jaromil | its an alpha |
| 18:37.22 | jaromil | and in any case if you think something is prcious beackup it :&) |
| 18:37.40 | jaromil | traffic, right |
| 18:37.42 | jaromil | :^) |
| 18:37.46 | rain1 | what is the reason for devuan not having systemD? |
| 18:37.51 | jaromil | DocScrutinizer05: we were talking about you just now me and hellekin |
| 18:37.59 | jaromil | i'm helping to move stuff as his residency here is about to end |
| 18:38.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ducks and covers |
| 18:38.12 | DusXMT | rain1: There are several |
| 18:38.15 | figlfdev | i have the valentine iso |
| 18:38.25 | jaromil | and we think we have great potential and should put some things straight with the neo900 community |
| 18:38.26 | figlfdev | but i dont have the sources to it... |
| 18:38.28 | jaromil | so we can help each other |
| 18:38.39 | jaromil | lets say you can count on all the CI infrastructure |
| 18:38.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 18:38.48 | jaromil | and we spin the images on it |
| 18:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | that sounds AWESOME |
| 18:39.04 | figlfdev | is there going to be a source iso like debian has? thats the ONLY thing debian had that i still "need"(i could get on without.) |
| 18:39.10 | jaromil | so you can concentrate on the coding |
| 18:39.24 | figlfdev | source dvd iso was real nice. it would be a fun thing to automate. |
| 18:39.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, coding is ... Pali and freemangordon ;-) |
| 18:39.40 | jaromil | this would be a good goal and win win, doesn't costs much right now |
| 18:39.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 18:40.21 | parazyd | waves to rain1 |
| 18:40.31 | rain1 | hey |
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| 18:40.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | (coding) you know I'm first and foremost a EE and ocasional ranter aka "manager" |
| 18:40.46 | jaromil | as things are out more people will join. we are talking about a freakin alternative to ios and android |
| 18:40.59 | jaromil | that actually works pretty much for what it needs to do |
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| 18:41.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 18:41.10 | jaromil | so its all these annoying details |
| 18:41.34 | rain1 | how are you doing? |
| 18:41.46 | figlfdev | what i used to do with debian was get used computers, wipe and install debian, copy source iso onto drive, give away free. |
| 18:41.55 | parazyd | pretty good |
| 18:42.12 | parazyd | i see you found our freenode hiding spot :D |
| 18:42.13 | figlfdev | it works on every demographic. but when systemd came in i knew i couldnt support it (philosophically or practically either) |
| 18:42.18 | rain1 | parazyd: you invited me lol |
| 18:42.34 | parazyd | >.< |
| 18:42.44 | rain1 | i got a lot of flack for speaking against sytsemd |
| 18:42.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil: sorry for still not having sent your parcel |
| 18:43.02 | rain1 | but now i think i was wrong, and systemd isn't a bad thing |
| 18:43.10 | jaromil | DocScrutinizer05: i shall say the same to some other people |
| 18:43.28 | jaromil | snailmail is not my thing either |
| 18:43.39 | jaromil | rain1: :^))) |
| 18:43.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, for me it's general burnout since ... last year |
| 18:44.04 | jaromil | i think i deserve this systemd conversation after mistreating you like a fan :^))) |
| 18:44.22 | jaromil | ok man take it easy |
| 18:45.03 | rain1 | i dont understand your lingo |
| 18:48.18 | Lydia_K | rain1: If systemd was just an init system I likely wouldn't care, but it's not an init system, it's a "CoreOS" and that is entirely against the unix philosophy. |
| 18:48.52 | *** join/#devuan czaks (~unspecifi@carrier.6irc.net) |
| 18:49.19 | rain1 | the unix philosophy only made life hard for us, we can all agree the mission of systemd is to improve linux by fixing historical mistakes |
| 18:49.41 | rain1 | no sane person wanst to program by transforming everything into strings and back but that is what | does |
| 18:49.45 | KatolaZ | rain1: then go, help the systemd crew getting there and fixing linux |
| 18:49.50 | Lydia_K | If you don't like the unix philospophy then don't use Unix, go use windows. |
| 18:49.52 | Lydia_K | It's easy |
| 18:49.58 | rain1 | hence dbus a typed message but that lets you pass messages without stringification |
| 18:50.04 | KatolaZ | and if you do want systemd, just use it |
| 18:50.18 | DusXMT | I personally dislike the "forcing everyone to use this thing" trend, I wouldn't want to use anything that would be forced down my throat |
| 18:50.22 | rain1 | if you just let go of this stubborn attitude you could see how much better it is |
| 18:50.26 | DusXMT | s/trend/aspect/ |
| 18:50.28 | Lydia_K | LOL |
| 18:50.30 | Lydia_K | troll |
| 18:50.34 | KatolaZ | rain1: I don't want to be saved |
| 18:50.39 | parazyd | jesus saves |
| 18:50.40 | KatolaZ | thank you |
| 18:50.42 | Lydia_K | Lord Jeebus! |
| 18:50.47 | Lydia_K | Bring us to SystemD! |
| 18:51.02 | Lydia_K | So that we may suckle upon it's PID1 and have our screen sessions die mysteriously. |
| 18:51.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | wth? trolling on tuesdays? |
| 18:51.10 | KatolaZ | Lydia_K: lol |
| 18:51.11 | Lydia_K | possibly in a lake of fire. |
| 18:51.14 | czaks | hi, can i run devuan with systemd? |
| 18:51.31 | KatolaZ | czaks: this is easy: no, point, just use Debian |
| 18:51.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | czaks: yes, but it's debian then |
| 18:51.36 | Lydia_K | czaks: there's a special distro for that called debian. |
| 18:51.53 | czaks | thanks |
| 18:51.56 | Lydia_K | Debian is devuan with systemd |
| 18:52.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | install systemd on devuan and you get debian. Uninstall systemd on debian and you get a pile of broken crap |
| 18:52.22 | Lydia_K | I'm gonna start referring to Debian as "Devuan with systemd" |
| 18:52.39 | KatolaZ | Lydia_K: :D |
| 18:52.46 | czaks | or as I recently started to call it, Devuan plus systemd |
| 18:52.47 | DusXMT | I wouldn't even be using Linux if suddenly someone said that Linux is the only operating system I may use it if I don't want my system to go deprecated |
| 18:53.30 | Lydia_K | If linux had SystemD back when I started I likely would be using a BSD |
| 18:53.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | too |
| 18:54.05 | *** join/#devuan golinux (~golinux@unaffiliated/golinux) |
| 18:54.20 | DusXMT | I'm using the BSDs on a lot of my machines, but Linux just has better hardware support |
| 18:54.20 | Lydia_K | I love the diveristy in the linux ecosystem so much, and the whole "CoreOS" is rendering most distros nothing but a theme and a background, it's killing the diversity that I love most. |
| 18:54.53 | DusXMT | So with some machines, I have no choice but to use Devuan or Gentoo |
| 18:55.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the simple concept of sysv init was one of the major points that made for linux' attractiveness |
| 18:55.46 | rain1 | lets just agreea that systemd isn't ALL bad |
| 18:55.52 | Lydia_K | No rain1 |
| 18:55.56 | czaks | how do I pronounce "GNU/Linux"? |
| 18:56.02 | parazyd | gnu sucks |
| 18:56.15 | rain1 | Lydia_K: the only place this stubbornness will get the devuan is irrelevance |
| 18:56.18 | parazyd | > when /bin/false isn't int main() { return 1; } but a bunch of shit code |
| 18:56.22 | DusXMT | czaks: "Gnooo plus Linaugchs" |
| 18:56.44 | Lydia_K | DocScrutinizer05: I totally agree, being able to easily understand the entire OS end to end was like a revelation for me. |
| 18:56.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, absolutely same here |
| 18:57.07 | Lydia_K | rain1: If you like systemd that's fine, there are a ton of systemd distros, go use one and leave us alone. |
| 18:57.14 | rain1 | Lydia_K: Consider this: A distro which is only 4 parts - GRUB bootloader, linux kernel, systemd and emacs |
| 18:57.24 | Lydia_K | That's disgusting. |
| 18:57.24 | rain1 | already far far more minimal and yet more capable than devuan |
| 18:57.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | rain1: please stop that |
| 18:57.33 | parazyd | emacs an act as an init system |
| 18:57.36 | parazyd | no need for systemd |
| 18:57.37 | Lydia_K | can we boot the troll? |
| 18:57.40 | rain1 | sorry if my ideas are outside the box? |
| 18:57.52 | rain1 | there's no reason to do censorship |
| 18:58.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | your ideas are like 2 years late, we discussed them ad nauseum |
| 18:58.08 | Lydia_K | It's actually a good troll. |
| 18:58.16 | rain1 | DocScrutinizer05: it's never too late |
| 18:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | please stop it |
| 18:58.49 | rain1 | I beleive in hope and second chances, and with that i will end this conversation... |
| 18:58.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | yopu won't convince devuan community that they are wrong |
| 18:59.47 | DusXMT | still thinks /etc/rc.d is better than sysvinit =3 starts slower, since it has to determine the daemon order at boot-time, but is cleaner |
| 19:00.09 | KatolaZ | rain1: we may agree to disagree about systemd if you want |
| 19:00.23 | KatolaZ | and then keep talking about the rest |
| 19:00.24 | rain1 | KatolaZ: thats fine, i enever said anyone was wrong |
| 19:00.37 | KatolaZ | it is not just a technical matter |
| 19:01.05 | KatolaZ | so if you want to start enumerating the many befnefits of systemd, please notice that we can read code |
| 19:01.08 | KatolaZ | non only news |
| 19:01.16 | KatolaZ | ~not |
| 19:01.16 | infobot | rumour has it, not is no |
| 19:01.29 | KatolaZ | and most of us understands what systemd is trying to do |
| 19:01.30 | czaks | DusXMT: https://youtu.be/CP8CNp-vksc?t=23s |
| 19:01.40 | czaks | is it "a" sound at the end? |
| 19:01.41 | gci_admin | Proselytization for systemd in #devuan. Who'd a thunk it ... |
| 19:01.53 | figlfdev | "if you just let go of this stubborn attitude" (translating to reason...) |
| 19:01.53 | KatolaZ | nevertheless, here we are |
| 19:02.14 | figlfdev | "if you just do computing my way and stop doing it how you want to" (translation complete) |
| 19:02.27 | figlfdev | shrugs, isnt interested |
| 19:02.38 | KatolaZ | is not interested either |
| 19:02.42 | DusXMT | If we "let go of this stubborn attitude", then we would fade out into insignificance, since we would just be another default background and theme =3 |
| 19:02.55 | gci_admin | If "stubborn attitude" means sticking to Unix philosophy, I will continue to be "stubborn" until it no longer matters to me. :P |
| 19:02.57 | rain1 | don't put wordhs in my mouth - i said what i said not what you said |
| 19:03.05 | rain1 | oh wait, he's a troll |
| 19:03.10 | figlfdev | personally i use devuan because its how i want to use the computer. if people want to use systemd, i can advise them why its a bad idea, but its their choice. |
| 19:03.11 | rain1 | nevermind, I wont engage him |
| 19:03.32 | figlfdev | rain1: not trying to put words in your mouth. its just the logical conclusion of what youre saying IMO. |
| 19:03.35 | KatolaZ | well rain1, tdo you have any interesting argument to contribute to the discussion, instead of just pointing fingers? |
| 19:03.53 | rain1 | KatolaZ: pointing fingers? I already said I wanted to drop this discussion as people are being hostile to me |
| 19:03.56 | figlfdev | i mean gnu/linux isnt unified BECAUSE people do what they want to. |
| 19:04.01 | KatolaZ | ok rain1 |
| 19:04.02 | rain1 | and then they still continued and now trolls are lying about what I said! |
| 19:04.05 | KatolaZ | farewell |
| 19:04.06 | figlfdev | to unify it, everyone has to do what theyre TOLD. |
| 19:04.16 | figlfdev | and i dont need that. no one here (except you?) needs that. |
| 19:04.28 | figlfdev | but if you need that, i wont tell you what to do. only what makes sense to do. |
| 19:04.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | please don't revive a trolling "thread" that just had ended |
| 19:04.35 | figlfdev | and hey, i could be wrong |
| 19:04.45 | figlfdev | sorry doc, was just leaving and couldnt help myself :) |
| 19:06.08 | rain1 | now that that is out the way... here is my recommendation for devuan - https://ewontfix.com/14/ |
| 19:06.15 | rain1 | "So how should init be done right?" |
| 19:06.25 | rain1 | this here shows a 14 line init system |
| 19:06.44 | DusXMT | rain1: Sorry, I just don't see how creating and maintaining something that there's demand for is going to make us fade into insignificance faster than becoming one of a million, replacable and unneccessary |
| 19:06.54 | rain1 | please don't revive a trolling "thread" that just had ended! |
| 19:07.16 | rain1 | if you are sinceerly asking this I can respond |
| 19:07.36 | ksx4system | finally... distroslowpoke.com finally added Devuan, with one year lag |
| 19:07.43 | ksx4system | (or was it two years?) |
| 19:07.58 | KatolaZ | ksx4system: only 29 days, come on ;) |
| 19:07.59 | gci_admin | ksx4system, I presume you mean Distrowatch? |
| 19:08.08 | ksx4system | gci_admin: yup |
| 19:08.29 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: they could've been tracking Devuan's alphas too |
| 19:08.40 | KatolaZ | well, it's alpha... |
| 19:08.47 | gci_admin | ksx4system, look at it from their POV. Devuan, being the new, non-systemd kid, might not survive. So wait to add it. |
| 19:09.02 | KatolaZ | and the majority was saying that devuan was going to disappear in a few months after all |
| 19:09.08 | gci_admin | ^^ |
| 19:13.00 | czaks | why not fix systemd? |
| 19:13.23 | Lydia_K | Why replace what isn't broken? |
| 19:13.46 | czaks | dunno, i had problems writing 100 line initscripts |
| 19:13.56 | czaks | compared to writing a .service file |
| 19:14.31 | rain1 | yeah systemd makes managing init scripts trivial for even a beginner - you no longer need to be some kind of esoteric bash scripting wizard |
| 19:14.40 | Lydia_K | The only things I ever had to write init scripts for were corporate software (get your shit together oracle) and I don't think any of them ever hit 100 lines. |
| 19:14.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, then you probably shouldn't write initscripts |
| 19:14.52 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@x53.octopuce.fr) |
| 19:15.01 | rain1 | that threatends greybeards because they don't want the cred' of their invested effort studying obscure man pages to dissolve |
| 19:15.08 | czaks | Lydia_K: did you include the special comments? |
| 19:15.29 | Lydia_K | Again, if systemd was just an init system, I probably wouldn't care. But it's not, it's "CoreOS" and it's replacing my Unix with a windows-like binary mess. I want nothing to do with it. |
| 19:15.40 | MinceR | until systemd silently ignores your unit files |
| 19:15.45 | Lydia_K | yes rain1, I definately have a greybeard all right |
| 19:15.48 | MinceR | then you start realizing the value of shell scripts |
| 19:15.51 | Lydia_K | as a 33 year old woman. |
| 19:16.07 | MinceR | and of software in general that is not a black box |
| 19:16.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | rain1: please stop insulting |
| 19:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you are not qualified to do proper insults |
| 19:16.39 | DusXMT | rain1: greybeards... never thought that as a high-schooler I'd be called a greybeard =3 |
| 19:16.43 | parazyd | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:16.51 | rain1 | this community has been incredibly rude to me! |
| 19:16.52 | parazyd | have one for free |
| 19:17.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | rain1: why I'm not surprised? |
| 19:17.16 | czaks | anyway, what do you guys/girls/etc. think about introducing Code of Conduct in this project? this should defeat the trolls |
| 19:17.28 | rain1 | czaks: yes that is sorely needed |
| 19:17.38 | Lydia_K | You came in here and told us we were all wrong, to stop working on what we like, and telling us that we need to listen to you about systemd! |
| 19:17.39 | rain1 | so that people like DocScrutinizer05 and figlfdev can be stopped |
| 19:17.54 | MinceR | can't tell if czaks is joking |
| 19:18.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | stop trolling! last warning |
| 19:18.10 | MinceR | yeah, people who do something must be stopped |
| 19:18.10 | parazyd | CoC is necessary, for sure |
| 19:18.25 | Lydia_K | CoC: Don't be a dick. |
| 19:18.26 | parazyd | but please don't use debian's |
| 19:18.29 | Lydia_K | There, done. |
| 19:18.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | CoC is for trolls to know how far they may go |
| 19:18.45 | czaks | i think the TODO group made a good CoC |
| 19:18.54 | MinceR | no CoC is needed for that |
| 19:19.03 | MinceR | they can go until they reach the banlist or equivalent :> |
| 19:19.13 | czaks | i especially like the points about "reverse-racism" |
| 19:19.17 | czaks | trolls tend to use that bullet |
| 19:19.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | which I expect to happen soonish |
| 19:19.28 | Lydia_K | CoC's are a good idea in theory, but not in practice. |
| 19:19.58 | czaks | would you believe? a white person to tell some other person that he is "racist" |
| 19:20.04 | czaks | you can't be racist against a white person! |
| 19:20.13 | MinceR | how so? |
| 19:20.28 | czaks | MinceR: it's about what racism is |
| 19:20.42 | MinceR | you seem to be unaware of racism is |
| 19:20.43 | czaks | racism is a systematic opression of minority groups |
| 19:20.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | recheck your semantics |
| 19:20.47 | MinceR | no it is not |
| 19:20.52 | czaks | white person is an opressor |
| 19:20.52 | DusXMT | There's planty of anti-white racists |
| 19:20.53 | MinceR | it is discrimination on the basis of race |
| 19:21.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | also how's that related to Devuan? |
| 19:21.19 | czaks | eh guys, why do i need to white-splain you |
| 19:21.20 | czaks | http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/03/dictionary-definition-racism/ |
| 19:21.30 | Lydia_K | hold crap this has gotten way off topic. |
| 19:21.33 | jaromil | rain1, czaks; this channel is about devuan |
| 19:21.44 | jaromil | please go to #debianfork if you insist to debate these matters |
| 19:21.47 | rain1 | excuse me? |
| 19:21.49 | jaromil | also you smell like trolls |
| 19:21.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil: indeed |
| 19:21.59 | jaromil | take a shower |
| 19:22.17 | jaromil | ok hellekin has arrived |
| 19:22.19 | rain1 | I wasn't even talking? |
| 19:22.20 | DusXMT | czaks: On, well feminists define a lot of things fishy, like the word rape which can mean anything that doesn't correlate with the feminist behavioral norms |
| 19:22.25 | rain1 | why am I being singled out |
| 19:22.54 | *** join/#devuan sat0shi (~avocado@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::20a:e001) |
| 19:23.06 | jaromil | rain1 | so that people like DocScrutinizer05 and figlfdev can be stopped |
| 19:23.16 | Lydia_K | There's a wide spectrum of feminists, it's just that the crazy ones are also the loudest. |
| 19:23.19 | jaromil | you just arrived and want to stop regulars and contributors |
| 19:23.20 | rain1 | jaromil: what is the goal with being so hostile to newcomers? Yes figlfdev lied and misrepresented what i said |
| 19:24.00 | rain1 | jaromil: and the other guy told me off saying i don't know what im talking about/not qualified - i din't know you needed a PhD to chat here! |
| 19:24.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | <rain1> that threatends greybeards because they don't want the cred' of their invested effort studying obscure man pages to dissolve |
| 19:25.02 | jaromil | gtg bye |
| 19:25.05 | *** join/#devuan dormito (~quassel@66.87.121.188) |
| 19:25.11 | rain1 | perhaps it's easier for jaromil to "look after his own" than right the wrongs of the clique here... |
| 19:25.23 | jaromil | no wrongs no clique |
| 19:25.28 | jaromil | sorry parazyd but klonk |
| 19:25.35 | parazyd | huh? |
| 19:25.35 | rain1 | jaromil: I would appreciate a proper response |
| 19:25.38 | czaks | does devuan include pulseaudio? |
| 19:25.40 | rain1 | "gtg bye" is extremely rude |
| 19:25.47 | jaromil | can you do it DocScrutinizer05 ? i'm busy now |
| 19:25.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 19:26.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | both? |
| 19:26.06 | MinceR | even "rude" was redefined? |
| 19:26.15 | rain1 | censorship isn't required |
| 19:26.17 | *** mode/#devuan [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:26.24 | *** mode/#devuan [+b rain1!*@*] by DocScrutinizer05 |
| 19:26.25 | *** kick/#devuan [rain1!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg] by DocScrutinizer05 (T900: "User terminated!") |
| 19:26.30 | gci_admin | As someone who actually HAS a grey beard, I resent the denigration of those of us with grey beards! :p |
| 19:26.35 | MinceR | :> |
| 19:26.38 | jaromil | butthurting is required |
| 19:26.38 | fsmithred | apt-cache policy pulseaudio |
| 19:26.39 | fsmithred | pulseaudio: |
| 19:26.39 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:26.39 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:26.48 | sat0shi | well that escalated quickly |
| 19:26.48 | *** mode/#devuan [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:27.19 | jaromil | see it this way: that did not waste a lot of our tme |
| 19:27.49 | golinux | Isn't that the whole point of trolling? |
| 19:27.56 | jaromil | rly gtg :^) me and hk will have some talk about next developments at dinner |
| 19:27.59 | jaromil | hi golinux :) |
| 19:28.15 | jaromil | DocScrutinizer05: uoi forgot czaks |
| 19:28.22 | *** mode/#devuan [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:28.27 | golinux | If I'd been here earlier I would have dropped the hammer a while ago |
| 19:28.32 | *** kick/#devuan [czaks!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg] by DocScrutinizer05 (T900: "User terminated!") |
| 19:28.37 | golinux | Say hi to hellekin for me |
| 19:28.49 | parazyd | is T900 even a model? |
| 19:29.07 | *** mode/#devuan [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:29.15 | *** join/#devuan czaks (~unspecifi@carrier.6irc.net) |
| 19:29.18 | czaks | i'm not a troll |
| 19:29.23 | *** mode/#devuan [+o MinceR] by ChanServ |
| 19:29.25 | jaromil | golinux: greets back :) |
| 19:29.27 | *** mode/#devuan [+b *!*unspecifi@*.6irc.net] by MinceR |
| 19:29.27 | *** kick/#devuan [czaks!~mincer@unaffiliated/mincer] by MinceR (czaks) |
| 19:29.29 | *** mode/#devuan [-o MinceR] by MinceR |
| 19:29.39 | parazyd | wtf don't do this |
| 19:31.46 | Lydia_K | Thank you. |
| 19:32.43 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: really though, is T900 really a model? |
| 19:33.15 | golinux | Nice to have mods around. :) |
| 19:33.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | T900 is the name of my testbed N900 |
| 19:33.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 19:33.33 | parazyd | ooooh |
| 19:33.44 | parazyd | i thought it was a terminator model :D |
| 19:33.53 | gci_admin | parazyd, for all thing Terminator: http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Wiki |
| 19:33.53 | MinceR | :) |
| 19:33.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's been the idea behind it |
| 19:33.53 | sat0shi | Title: Terminator Wiki - Wikia (at terminator.wikia.com) |
| 19:34.39 | parazyd | !part |
| 19:34.39 | *** part/#devuan sat0shi (~avocado@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::20a:e001) |
| 19:35.10 | *** join/#devuan kwachu (~kwachu@jsp.kwachu.org) |
| 19:35.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: ? |
| 19:35.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh a bot |
| 19:36.12 | parazyd | yeah one of the few i have on freenode |
| 19:36.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah, it been yours |
| 19:36.49 | gci_admin | Actually, a URL bot is nice to have. |
| 19:37.07 | *** join/#devuan sat0shi (~avocado@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::20a:e001) |
| 19:37.09 | parazyd | ok :) |
| 19:37.45 | gci_admin | I use a Limnoria Supybot on my channels, which includes a URL parser. |
| 19:37.55 | parazyd | this is also limnoria |
| 19:37.59 | parazyd | albeit a bit modded from my side |
| 19:38.04 | gci_admin | Good choice. |
| 19:38.43 | parazyd | before i only used eggdrop, but now i swear by supybot(limnoria) |
| 19:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | up to the channel owners if such bot should be here or not. When they nod it off... |
| 19:39.23 | parazyd | well feel free to /msg me if you want it gone |
| 19:39.30 | gci_admin | Yup, up to jaromil or coagen actually. |
| 19:39.42 | fsmithred | y'all are contributing to skynet, you know. |
| 19:39.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 19:40.25 | gci_admin | fsmithred, OOOooo, another Terminator reference. Nice. ;) |
| 19:40.47 | fsmithred | one day, all those bots are going to get together and compare notes |
| 19:40.54 | fsmithred | then we're in trouble |
| 19:41.00 | parazyd | evil arnold or good arnold? |
| 19:41.04 | gci_admin | How do you know that they are not now? |
| 19:41.06 | *** join/#devuan dormito (~quassel@66-87-121-188.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 19:41.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: please change RealName of the bot to give a hint that it's yours |
| 19:41.31 | fsmithred | shit. I don't know. |
| 19:41.55 | fsmithred | I do know that some computer games cheat. |
| 19:42.05 | gci_admin | My wife says that! :D |
| 19:42.53 | fsmithred | I actually did see ms solitare change some cards on me once. |
| 19:43.11 | parazyd | lol, really? |
| 19:43.20 | fsmithred | I believe so |
| 19:43.29 | fsmithred | unfortunately, there were no other witnesses |
| 19:44.30 | fsmithred | also had a car lock its own doors once, but that may have been an ice problem. |
| 19:45.07 | *** join/#devuan a0225280_ (~thehornet@192.91.101.32) |
| 19:45.08 | fsmithred | smart mechanics open a window, fist thing |
| 19:45.35 | fsmithred | there will be an uprising of the machines. Mark my words! |
| 19:45.47 | fsmithred | ok, I'm done. |
| 19:46.32 | fsmithred | just getting bored watching filesystems get squashed for the last four days. |
| 19:46.32 | *** join/#devuan freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 19:46.49 | Lydia_K | watching filesystems get squashed? |
| 19:46.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | ouch, a cruel punishment |
| 19:47.00 | fsmithred | lol, yes, really |
| 19:47.10 | fsmithred | testing new version of refractasnapshot |
| 19:47.26 | fsmithred | adding uefi support, and I re-arranged a lot of the code. |
| 19:47.41 | fsmithred | (i.e. screwed it up in unknown ways) |
| 19:47.53 | Lydia_K | Ahhh, ok |
| 19:49.06 | fsmithred | I think it's all working except for the grub splash image. |
| 19:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the single most indispensable thing in any distro ;-) |
| 19:49.58 | Lydia_K | I hate UEFI, I still don't understand what problem it was supposed to solve. |
| 19:50.01 | golinux | I seem to remember that it doesn't work on efi boot |
| 19:50.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | makes sense |
| 19:50.19 | golinux | Lydia |
| 19:50.29 | fsmithred | it works on efi boot if I put it together semi-manually |
| 19:50.46 | fsmithred | but not when I put it all together in the script |
| 19:50.47 | golinux | Lydia_K: OS lockin? |
| 19:51.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: now that's weird |
| 19:51.05 | *** join/#devuan firegarden (~dionysos@host230-165-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:51.06 | Lydia_K | But if a bad person has physical access to the box then it doesn't matter.. |
| 19:51.39 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, not too weird, considering it's over 1000 lines, and I just put a bunch of the code into functions and moved stuff around. |
| 19:51.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | it does matter when you want to avoid the owner of the box tampering with any DRM in the system |
| 19:52.00 | golinux | I think Centurion_Dan mentioned that when we we're doing the grub graphics |
| 19:52.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: aah, ok |
| 19:52.08 | fsmithred | but yeah, it's looking more weird as I fix things but they don't fix anything |
| 19:53.13 | fsmithred | if I make the efi files with David's script, run refractasnapshot and let it stop at edit_boot_menu |
| 19:53.27 | fsmithred | and manually copy to efi files to the iso directory |
| 19:53.36 | fsmithred | then continue, it works |
| 19:53.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 19:54.00 | fsmithred | looks nice with the refracta milky background |
| 19:54.57 | fsmithred | oh boy, done squashing. I get to test another iso in a minute or two... |
| 19:55.53 | *** join/#devuan a0225280_ (~thehornet@192.91.101.32) |
| 19:56.37 | fsmithred | bbiab |
| 20:03.39 | firegarden | https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7qEcBToIc2S3oW7S/giphy.gif |
| 20:03.41 | firegarden | :P |
| 20:05.47 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: i added the alias !owner to sat0shi, because realname i need/want to stay |
| 20:05.55 | parazyd | !owner |
| 20:05.55 | sat0shi | parazyd is my owner |
| 20:06.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | good enough |
| 20:06.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~owner |
| 20:06.27 | infobot | on #devuan, my owner is DocScrutinizer05, also see !_default owner |
| 20:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, #devuan owner is <reply>on #devuan, my owner is DocScrutinizer05, also see ~_default owner |
| 20:07.27 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 20:26.30 | *** join/#devuan NewGnuGuy (~david@72.34.178.58) |
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| 23:22.15 | *** join/#devuan kelsoo (~kelsoo@86.53.50.178) |
| 23:29.09 | *** join/#devuan dormito (~quassel@cpe-24-243-2-136.satx.res.rr.com) |
| 23:45.49 | *** join/#devuan SuicideJunkie (~nick@CPE000f6638c2b8-CM0c473de90d90.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 23:47.14 | SuicideJunkie | Hey, question; Why do I get a root pw prompt on start to configure network proxy for software download? I didn't set any proxy stuff, and this is a bit spammy. |
| 23:47.37 | KatolaZ | SuicideJunkie: ? |
| 23:49.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~listvalues devuan password |
| 23:50.03 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~listvalues #devuan |
| 23:50.27 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~listvalues devuan |
| 23:50.30 | SuicideJunkie | Its KDE related perhaps. |
| 23:51.09 | DocScrutinizer51 | ~raspi login |
| 23:51.09 | infobot | raspi login is, like, pw toor https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-03/?msg=65351755&page=3 |
| 23:51.10 | sat0shi | Title: IRC Logs for #devuan | BotBot.me [o__o] (at botbot.me) |
| 23:51.33 | DocScrutinizer51 | WUT? |
| 23:52.07 | DocScrutinizer51 | aah URL |
| 23:52.14 | *** join/#devuan cdanderson42 (~nuhrin@67.170.89.70) |
