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| 01:11.07 | *** topic/#devuan is Devuan discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan) - Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork - /msg chanserv info #devuan |
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| 04:56.04 | Chanku | Hey |
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| 07:11.11 | m33 | hi |
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| 07:56.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | does there exist a concept an d maybe even a simple cmdline tool to simplify a scheme for recovery from system critical edits like: `` echo foobar >/tmp/config_tentative && mount -B /tmp/config_tentative ~/.ssh/config ´´ ? |
| 07:57.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | rationale: (bind)mounts supposed to be volatile with reboot |
| 07:57.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course the above scheme missing part two, which is a "commit" |
| 07:58.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | umount /tmp/config_tentative && mv /tmp/config_tentative ~/.ssh/config |
| 08:04.20 | jaromil | you mean gitkeeper? thats for etc |
| 08:04.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds interesting |
| 08:05.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | does it actually auto-rollback on reboot? |
| 08:06.15 | jaromil | if you tell it to |
| 08:08.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | is this a system immanent rollback like with mount, or a scripted active rollback via e.g initscript? |
| 08:08.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I can't google a manpage for gitkeeper |
| 08:12.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | the mount approach has the advantage of being 100% failsafe |
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| 08:40.02 | hellekin | it's not gitkeeper but etckeeper. It uses a git repo (or mercurial) to keep track of changes in /etc automatically, so you can review what's going on in your config files. |
| 08:44.19 | hellekin | actually you could use a tomb for this. When you have a working $HOME, you copy the config files to the tomb and create appropriate bind hooks. Then you synchronize your tomb every time you amke a change that you verified. If the change breaks something, you can restore the working version from the Tomb. |
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| 08:56.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is: when you break something so badly that the system collapses totally, e.g it doesn't even reboot anymore, then what would you do? |
| 08:57.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | bind hooks sounds like the solution I came up with, above |
| 08:58.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'll do a lil fancy and create a script to illustrate what exactly I have in mind |
| 08:58.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr, what's on my mind - is the idiom I guess |
| 09:02.27 | hellekin | or you could use refractasnapshot and have a VM with your same config, and make your ugrades there. If everything goes right you snapshot, if there's an issue you debug the VM |
| 09:12.06 | jsfarinet | Good morning all! |
| 09:16.08 | hellekin | hi jsfarinet |
| 09:17.06 | jsfarinet | Just a practical question - for you might be an idiotic one: I installed successfully ascii on qemu - no desktop |
| 09:17.56 | jsfarinet | and went then to /etc to configure a wireless connection. But: boom! No wpa_supplicant there. Is the commandline connection in devuan/debian done differentely? |
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| 09:40.08 | jaromil | `no. i noticed also wpa is not installed by default, we'll be fixing that |
| 09:50.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: sure, but that's not to the point |
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| 10:14.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: maybe for the background - I read about ssh incompatibilities that bust my sftp (needs local update of libssh4), and one of the suggested solutions was to reconfigure sshd_config on the server so it accepts SSH1 algos. Of course the usual advice didn't miss "TEST this new config by ... loging in ... WHILE YOU KEEP OPEN A SHELL TO FIX STUFF WHEN IT'S BROKEN". There often are situations where you have to ponder *how* to rollback |
| 10:14.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | when some config changes you do cause a lockout of sorts. The most advanced approach I've seen so far was a "(sleep 600; mv xyfile~ xyfile)&" |
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| 10:15.24 | KatolaZ | but why the damn avahi is automatically iunstalled in jessie? |
| 10:15.34 | KatolaZ | sorry |
| 10:15.41 | KatolaZ | I meant "ascii" |
| 10:15.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | krhrhr |
| 10:16.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | why is dang avahi installed anywhere at all, why does it even exist? |
| 10:16.48 | KatolaZ | I lost 20 minutes trying to understand why my other computer couldn't reach git.devuan.org |
| 10:16.53 | KatolaZ | from the same network |
| 10:17.00 | KatolaZ | behind the same access point |
| 10:17.13 | KatolaZ | with the same resolv.conf and nsswitch |
| 10:17.35 | KatolaZ | dn the reason was the damn avahi, who had decided that I needed a damn fake ip |
| 10:17.54 | KatolaZ | with a fake default gw |
| 10:17.55 | KatolaZ | :( |
| 10:18.08 | KatolaZ | why is this shit around at all, seriously? |
| 10:18.09 | KatolaZ | :( |
| 10:18.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | same happened to my, some ten or more years ago already |
| 10:18.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | me* |
| 10:18.49 | KatolaZ | oh surely |
| 10:18.59 | KatolaZ | but since I never reinstall |
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| 10:19.06 | KatolaZ | I had forgot the issue |
| 10:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | everybody does |
| 10:20.18 | KatolaZ | it's astonishing to find out how much crap the same developer can put together in ten year, right? |
| 10:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually you wouldn't expect that crap on a server. Neither BT, WLAN, or automounter stuff, though all of that could be found on Hetzner servers witht heir default install |
| 10:20.52 | jaromil | if there would be any cross-distro democratic process and we'd create an anti-avahi party, we'd be seriously getting into office |
| 10:20.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: it's frightening |
| 10:21.04 | KatolaZ | jaromil: let's do that |
| 10:21.08 | KatolaZ | this is just SHIT |
| 10:21.16 | KatolaZ | coded in shitty way |
| 10:21.20 | KatolaZ | for shitty reasons |
| 10:21.38 | KatolaZ | why on earth should linux implement by default Zeroconf? |
| 10:21.47 | KatolaZ | who needs it? |
| 10:21.51 | KatolaZ | for which reasons? |
| 10:21.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody |
| 10:22.14 | jaromil | but KatolaZ there is no democracy, there is some corporate sponsored oligarchy |
| 10:22.27 | DusXMT | I heard it had something to do with interoperating with MacOS on the network? |
| 10:22.27 | jaromil | needs for mDNS may be argumented |
| 10:22.29 | KatolaZ | democracy starts from scratch jaromil |
| 10:22.34 | jaromil | but then leave it as mDNS |
| 10:22.40 | KatolaZ | exactly |
| 10:22.47 | jaromil | not as a daemon that reconfigures things via a dbus clusterfuck |
| 10:22.49 | KatolaZ | do not BLOAT the whole thing into a monster |
| 10:23.00 | KatolaZ | and mangles with routing |
| 10:23.02 | jaromil | that sneaks through packages at any occasion |
| 10:23.13 | KatolaZ | I am gonna pinning it as systemd |
| 10:23.15 | KatolaZ | prio -1 |
| 10:23.16 | hellekin | KatolaZ: avahi is installed in ASCII so you know you have stuff to fix there :D |
| 10:23.20 | jaromil | i'm very much for removing avahi from all recommends: fields at least in ascii |
| 10:23.23 | KatolaZ | hellekin: :D |
| 10:23.32 | jaromil | for a start |
| 10:23.33 | KatolaZ | thanks god we have avahi then! |
| 10:23.51 | KatolaZ | so I have an excuse to spend 30 minutes on the sofa on a Sunday Morning :D |
| 10:23.54 | jaromil | KatolaZ: have you tried the latest libdevuansdk? |
| 10:24.00 | jaromil | i left it stuck at the initrd |
| 10:24.05 | jaromil | would love you to give it a spin |
| 10:24.07 | KatolaZ | jaromil: had no time in the last three days |
| 10:24.08 | KatolaZ | sorry |
| 10:24.20 | KatolaZ | I can take care of it |
| 10:24.24 | KatolaZ | starting tonight ;) |
| 10:24.46 | KatolaZ | I have had some shit to deal with |
| 10:25.04 | KatolaZ | stupind things invented by academics to let other academics waste their time more efficiently |
| 10:25.08 | KatolaZ | :( |
| 10:25.33 | KatolaZ | anyway guys |
| 10:25.40 | KatolaZ | ascii looks pretty nice to me |
| 10:25.57 | KatolaZ | apart from the fact that we can't install it directly, ATM |
| 10:26.44 | KatolaZ | jaromil: I would second removing avahi from recommends: |
| 10:26.59 | KatolaZ | if you need it, you damn got to install it manually |
| 10:27.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | full ack |
| 10:27.49 | KatolaZ | I would also consider putting something like "This software will trash your system and waste a lot of time. If you really want to install it, please type 'Yes, I really want to install it'" |
| 10:28.03 | KatolaZ | when you apt-get install avahi |
| 10:28.24 | KatolaZ | similarly to what happens when you try to remove libc6 or the running kernel |
| 10:28.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | should be easy to do that in pre-install |
| 10:28.52 | KatolaZ | holy shit |
| 10:29.07 | jaromil | ahahaha |
| 10:29.15 | jaromil | i like the creation of a new VUA-advice: field |
| 10:29.46 | KatolaZ | ahahahah |
| 10:29.48 | jaromil | WARNING: this package is considered garbage. Save your time digging. |
| 10:29.51 | KatolaZ | that's a great idea jaromil |
| 10:29.57 | KatolaZ | ahahahahaha |
| 10:31.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | wonders if we could have a dummy avahi package with nothing but a warning readme inside, with MAXINT priority, to supersede the real avahi |
| 10:32.12 | fsmithred | morning |
| 10:33.38 | fsmithred | I don't know how the installer does package lists, but there must be a way to list individual packages instead of whole desktop environment. Without the metapackage, you can get away without some of the crap. |
| 10:34.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | metapackages are always nasty |
| 10:34.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, often |
| 10:34.54 | fsmithred | I'll take xorg but not xfce4 |
| 10:35.31 | fsmithred | and not task-anything-desktop |
| 10:36.29 | fsmithred | if all the pieces are individually installed, it makes it easier for anyone to remove the pieces they don't want. |
| 10:37.31 | hellekin | does anyone know how to disable auto-run for daemons on install? |
| 10:37.47 | hellekin | that would be a great step |
| 10:37.59 | DusXMT | That brings memories... back when I just started using ubuntu 8 years ago, I wanted to delete a program and it would delete the entire Gnome... |
| 10:38.15 | parazyd | hellekin: https://git.devuan.org/snippets/9 |
| 10:49.00 | jaromil | its implemented in the sdk :) |
| 10:49.47 | hellekin | seriously it's that complicated? |
| 10:50.33 | jaromil | there are only more complicated ways to do that |
| 10:50.45 | hellekin | lol |
| 10:50.52 | jaromil | this is the simpliest |
| 10:51.06 | jaromil | I actually use apt-get download and unpack it on my own in some scripts |
| 10:51.08 | hellekin | so it was really deisgned to auto start everything. Duh. |
| 10:51.41 | hellekin | coz of course if you install a package, you want to run it all the time, right? |
| 10:52.28 | parazyd | it's the universal operating system for a reason |
| 10:52.32 | parazyd | everything must run |
| 10:52.35 | parazyd | forever |
| 10:53.27 | hellekin | fiat lux. No replay, no rolling back. |
| 11:01.11 | jaromil | i love when on sunday noone is at work and travis runs faster <3 :^) |
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| 11:17.48 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: package lists are another option |
| 11:17.52 | KatolaZ | to keep things simple |
| 11:18.04 | KatolaZ | that's what I am using for the minimal live |
| 11:18.20 | KatolaZ | but it might become cumbersome for more complicated setups |
| 11:18.22 | fsmithred | I've used package lists with live-build in the past. |
| 11:18.42 | fsmithred | but d-i is a big black box for me |
| 11:19.15 | KatolaZ | nono |
| 11:19.20 | KatolaZ | I don't like d-i |
| 11:19.22 | KatolaZ | at all |
| 11:19.35 | KatolaZ | it's a hairball |
| 11:20.24 | hellekin | here comes d-1 :) |
| 11:21.22 | KatolaZ | eheheh |
| 11:21.31 | KatolaZ | hellekin: is there anything about a new installer yet? |
| 11:21.43 | KatolaZ | I am working on something *minimal* for the minimal live |
| 11:21.58 | KatolaZ | somethign that just installs the live system on a disk |
| 11:22.15 | KatolaZ | inspired by refractainstaller but much much simpler |
| 11:22.21 | hellekin | sounds good |
| 11:22.22 | KatolaZ | with no questions |
| 11:22.26 | KatolaZ | and a simple conf file |
| 11:22.42 | KatolaZ | I believe we *need* to start simple |
| 11:23.18 | fsmithred | refractainstaller started as a list of around 20 commands that dean gave me |
| 11:23.25 | KatolaZ | yes fsmithred |
| 11:23.29 | KatolaZ | that's gfreat |
| 11:23.40 | KatolaZ | but in refracta you need to take care of a lot of cornercases |
| 11:23.54 | KatolaZ | in the minimal live I already know what we are dealing with |
| 11:24.42 | fsmithred | yup |
| 11:24.59 | jsfarinet | Can i get back to avahi? Do we need it - not speaking for you developers but for a simple user? I remember i asked this when i used slackware and they adviced no ... And i could live without ... ;) |
| 11:25.15 | jsfarinet | But may debian/devuan is different ... |
| 11:25.33 | KatolaZ | hellekin: after all, some of the work wer are doing on the sdk can be reused for a d-1 installer |
| 11:26.20 | KatolaZ | jsfarinet: I can't see a single reason why one might need avahi |
| 11:26.38 | fsmithred | jsfarinet, I never install it. When I have had it, I could never figure out what it did. |
| 11:27.14 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: it just messes things around |
| 11:27.17 | fsmithred | actually, I think one thing it did was advertise the vnc server on the network |
| 11:27.35 | fsmithred | not sure how that's an advantage |
| 11:30.47 | hellekin | is there some way of using grep across N unices running various OSes without having to code it? (i.e., did anyone implement such a thing?) |
| 11:31.11 | KatolaZ | in principle you should use it in "POSIX" mode, hellekin |
| 11:31.38 | KatolaZ | which means most of the extended regexp won't work |
| 11:31.47 | hellekin | KatolaZ: I'm interested in comparing differences in the treatment of configuration files |
| 11:32.04 | KatolaZ | mmmhhhh |
| 11:32.12 | jaromil | hellekin: dsh |
| 11:32.52 | KatolaZ | same conf files across different unixes? |
| 11:35.10 | hellekin | I was thinking of this issue with /etc/devuan /etc/debian that break some packages and was wondering about a common cross-os way to avoid this. (I sound like LP don't I?) |
| 11:35.45 | hellekin | s/\(etc/de.*\)/\1_version/g |
| 11:36.00 | KatolaZ | yep |
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| 11:36.51 | KatolaZ | we might probably have something like |
| 11:37.36 | KatolaZ | s/\(etc/de\)\(v|b\)?an/\1\2an_version/g... |
| 11:37.43 | zdzichu | /etc/os-release ? |
| 11:37.46 | zdzichu | ducks |
| 11:38.25 | KatolaZ | there are a few more things in etc that start with "de." |
| 11:38.31 | KatolaZ | e.g. debconf |
| 11:38.44 | KatolaZ | debtree |
| 11:38.50 | KatolaZ | default... |
| 11:38.51 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 11:39.00 | KatolaZ | deluser.conf |
| 11:39.06 | KatolaZ | debfoster.conf |
| 11:39.15 | KatolaZ | and who knows how many other... |
| 11:40.17 | hellekin | zdzichu: thanks :blushes: |
| 11:41.00 | hellekin | although this file is actually quite mistaken |
| 11:42.22 | KatolaZ | hellekin: it is also not consistent across derivatives... |
| 11:42.26 | KatolaZ | AFAIK |
| 11:42.50 | hellekin | no policy for this file? |
| 11:45.01 | zdzichu | hellekin: actually I was half-joking, this file is systemd's invention |
| 11:45.35 | zdzichu | hellekin: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/os-release.html |
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| 11:47.16 | hellekin | zdzichu: it's not a bad idea, except I'd use /etc/os/{name,version,release,codename,issues,support,...} |
| 11:47.27 | hellekin | with one value per file |
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| 11:50.28 | hellekin | with a set of required files (name -> OS name e.g. Devuan; version -> 1.0.0-beta2), and some recommended ones (I think Jesse Smith from DW might be interested in pushing such a scheme for automating his service) |
| 11:50.55 | hellekin | would /etc/os/ be acceptable across the POSIX world? |
| 11:51.00 | hellekin | and beyond :) |
| 11:51.12 | hellekin | or is it used somewhere alread? |
| 11:54.09 | KatolaZ | hellekin: what do you mean by "acceptable in the POSIX world?" |
| 11:58.45 | hellekin | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKWGGDXe5MA&t=4m57s |
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| 12:00.11 | KatolaZ | hellekin: that's a fantastic one :D |
| 12:23.48 | hellekin | is https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/os-release.html#ID= excluding non-Latin OS names? |
| 12:24.43 | zdzichu | hellekin: "All strings should be in UTF-8 format" |
| 12:25.26 | hellekin | "(no spaces or other characters outside of 0â9, aâz, ".", "_" and "-") identifying the operating system, excluding any version information and suitable for processing by scripts or usage in generated filenames." |
| 12:27.14 | hellekin | So you can have NAME="红æ" ID="0xdeadb33f" |
| 12:28.11 | zdzichu | I think so |
| 12:29.05 | hellekin | actually you can do NAME="Ooops" ID=".." |
| 12:31.00 | zdzichu | agetty can use /etc/os-release while parsing /etc/issue template |
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| 14:09.27 | hellekin | D |
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| 14:25.06 | dimkr | does anyone know where I can find the Devuan armhf kernel source for rk3288? |
| 14:25.27 | hellekin | hey dimkr nice to see you |
| 14:25.37 | dimkr | o/ hellekin :) |
| 14:26.47 | hellekin | howdie? |
| 14:27.03 | dimkr | tough days, very busy with work and university |
| 14:27.12 | dimkr | zero to very little time to work on FOSS stuff |
| 14:28.12 | hellekin | authority, please free dimkr's brain |
| 14:34.22 | parazyd | dimkr: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/kernel |
| 14:34.39 | parazyd | all the rockchip stuff's here |
| 14:35.28 | dimkr | o/ parazyd |
| 14:35.36 | dimkr | so you used the stock Chrome OS kernel? |
| 14:35.44 | parazyd | yup |
| 14:35.52 | dimkr | can you provide me with a build script or the .config? |
| 14:36.07 | parazyd | there is also this: https://github.com/rockchip-linux/ |
| 14:36.26 | parazyd | one sec |
| 14:36.28 | dimkr | I want the exact kernel in the Devuan images, since it worked great :) |
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| 14:37.54 | parazyd | config: http://sprunge.us/GeBT |
| 14:38.00 | parazyd | go through to this to see how to build: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/arm-sdk/blob/master/arm/scripts/chromebook-veyron.sh |
| 14:38.36 | parazyd | the exact version/branch is somewhere in the script |
| 14:39.35 | dimkr | where were those patches taken from? Arch? |
| 14:39.49 | parazyd | kali |
| 14:39.57 | dimkr | ack |
| 14:40.20 | dimkr | I'll try to rebase my deblobbing script on top of this |
| 14:40.57 | parazyd | cool :) anyway, you can see in arm-sdk where all the needed files are so i guess you're gonna be alright |
| 14:41.03 | parazyd | let me know if you need anything |
| 14:42.29 | dimkr | thanks |
| 14:42.53 | dimkr | I'll try to fork arm-sdk and rebase my stuff from the Puppy Linux kernel build script |
| 14:49.13 | parazyd | well if you are adding support for another distro, please do :) arm-sdk is distro-agnostic |
| 14:49.36 | parazyd | so it should easily be able to build any distro |
| 14:51.13 | parazyd | just if you do, try to use the libdevuansdk branch, because things are refactored there, soon to be pushed into master |
| 14:51.52 | dimkr | parazyd, is there any easy way to change the seed? |
| 14:52.04 | dimkr | I want to create a custom image for rk3288, with a different selection of packages |
| 14:52.22 | parazyd | yeah, each script has an array called extra_packages |
| 14:52.25 | parazyd | just add it in there |
| 14:52.38 | parazyd | s/it/them |
| 14:52.59 | parazyd | also the main config file of arm-sdk has configurable packages |
| 14:52.59 | dimkr | so I'll have to copy the veyron stuff |
| 14:55.01 | dimkr | I want to "inherit" from veyron |
| 14:56.18 | parazyd | i'm not sure i'm following... |
| 14:56.37 | dimkr | I want to create a modified veyron image |
| 14:56.39 | dimkr | with a different kernel |
| 14:56.44 | dimkr | and a different selection of packages |
| 14:57.07 | dimkr | ideally, without copying chromebook-veyron.sh so we need to maintain two copies |
| 14:58.27 | parazyd | you're supposed to edit the script to your needs |
| 14:58.44 | parazyd | these are very minimal images now |
| 15:01.56 | dimkr | any idea where /lib/firmware/htc_9271.bin comes from? |
| 15:03.41 | dimkr | oh, I see, you fetch latest |
| 15:03.59 | parazyd | kernel firmware |
| 15:04.01 | parazyd | ^^ yes |
| 15:16.10 | dimkr | k, almost done |
| 15:16.27 | dimkr | only need to generate a targeted kernel config that supports only ath9k_htc and no mali/brcm/whatever requires binary blobs |
| 15:16.52 | dimkr | need to contact the Libreboot guys once I'm done, this should be the first fully libre distro for rk3288 |
| 15:22.51 | dimkr | btw, parazyd, is there any way to enter the kernel /usr/src/linux after patching and config copying without building, so I can modify the config? |
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| 16:43.39 | dimkr | parazyd, have you tried to run the SDK in an armhf qemu? |
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| 17:30.38 | jaromil | dimkr: take into consideration we are rewriting the sdk |
| 17:30.42 | jaromil | or better, refactoring it heavily |
| 17:30.53 | jaromil | that is coming very soon |
| 17:31.03 | jaromil | so you can put the package list and configuration in a maintainable state |
| 17:31.14 | jaromil | that we can agree it won't break (we'll watch regressions) |
| 17:32.02 | dimkr | jaromil, will the changes be mergeable? |
| 17:32.17 | jaromil | after we are finished with this rewrite |
| 17:32.31 | jaromil | anyway if you do just things in arm-sdk |
| 17:32.35 | jaromil | i guess parazyd will take care |
| 17:32.38 | jaromil | gtg |
| 17:32.45 | dimkr | I'm doing only just things |
| 17:32.47 | dimkr | I'm a man of justice |
| 17:32.54 | dimkr | :p |
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| 18:06.15 | tuxd3v | hello there guys :) |
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| 18:49.31 | parazyd | yes, it will be mergeable into master, but it's really being refactored |
| 18:50.02 | parazyd | dimkr: you can edit the config that's provided with arm-sdk |
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| 19:32.03 | ioso | what is user/password for default arm img? |
| 19:37.12 | dimkr | ioso, devuan/devuan? |
| 19:39.14 | ioso | does not work |
| 19:39.36 | ioso | im on bbb to be specific |
| 19:43.19 | ioso | root/devuan |
| 19:44.59 | parazyd | root:toor is in the beta1 images, will be root:devuan further on |
| 19:45.14 | parazyd | lach of coordination from my side made it that way, sorry |
| 19:45.26 | parazyd | lack* |
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| 23:25.36 | sirix | good evening |
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