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| 01:24.05 | Centurion_Dan | stevelitt: huh? What went well?? |
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| 01:45.25 | ffurrywol | flops over next to Lydia_K |
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| 08:53.36 | fbt | Centurion_Dan, I don't think supporting several init systems is even worth it. |
| 08:53.45 | fbt | Just don't make it hard to maintain another one. |
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| 09:43.37 | Centurion_Dan | fbt: it doesn't need to be hard, it's just tooling it out so that we don't have the scripts/configs for more then one installed in /etc normally. |
| 09:44.37 | fbt | I mean that if you're supporting several, then you're forcing your maintainers to write 3+ initscripts |
| 09:44.40 | fbt | It's meh |
| 09:45.14 | fbt | As long as it's not hard to maintain an alternative out of tree, supporting one init system is fine IMO |
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| 09:46.34 | Centurion_Dan | I agree, but allowing that is not the issue, it's the confusion that will ensue by having three sets of init-scripts/configs installed that I think is the problem. |
| 09:46.35 | Akuli | i agree with that, devuan shouldn't be hard to run with another init system |
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| 09:48.34 | Centurion_Dan | It is easy enough to use triggers so that when a particular init system is installed as an alternative then and only then is it's scripts/configs/service files are unpacked into /etc |
| 09:49.47 | jsfarinet | Hi all :) |
| 09:50.17 | Centurion_Dan | this will keep things clean, at the expense of adding some additional packaging complexity - but that can also be handled through documentation and lintian tests to ensure it's done nicely too. |
| 09:53.49 | Akuli | maybe we should just make startmeup support more init systems and use startmeup for starting stuff? :) |
| 09:59.17 | Centurion_Dan | Startmeup is an interesting project, and if it provides a standard way that simplifies the ability to switch init systems without having to craft custom init scripts for each service, then I'd be quite keen. However that either startmeup is smarter then init systems and knows how to generalise things down, or it is supports only the common capabilities of the init systems it has support for. |
| 09:59.42 | fbt | Dor my Arch meta distro, I've decided to just have a package with all the init scripts |
| 09:59.45 | fbt | :) |
| 10:00.57 | Akuli | Centurion_Dan, thats a problem i see with that though. but then there would be also the possibility of writing multiple init scripts if startmeup is not enough. |
| 10:01.09 | fbt | But that's because I have no desire to rebuild every single package to add an init script to them |
| 10:02.40 | Centurion_Dan | On the other hand, for a purely sysvinit setup in debian, then it's probably just as easy to take the /etc/init.d/skeleton and fill out the variables at the top of the file and use that rather then depend on the startmeup and provide as well. |
| 10:03.19 | KatolaZ | fbt: please remember that we are talking about 250 packages in total |
| 10:03.39 | KatolaZ | fo all the software that has a init script in Debian/Devuan |
| 10:03.51 | KatolaZ | no more than that |
| 10:03.57 | fbt | Yeah, that's true, most packages actually don't have an initscript/unit |
| 10:04.06 | KatolaZ | you will usually have between 70 and 80 init scripts in your box |
| 10:04.12 | KatolaZ | in 99.9% of the cases |
| 10:05.04 | Centurion_Dan | fbt: That's another approach, but that means that your having to change your package everytime a service package requires a change to it's init script. That sounds more painful then maintaing multiple initscripts/units in a package. |
| 10:05.11 | KatolaZ | so I personally can't see any mess in maintaining 3, 4 or even 7 init systems |
| 10:05.40 | KatolaZ | and, to be honest, most init scripts do not change at all over several versions of the same package |
| 10:05.43 | fbt | Centurion_Dan, yeah, it was just an anecdote for a wildly different usecase |
| 10:06.09 | fbt | In my case it's me who is the maintainer of *all the initscripts* |
| 10:06.17 | fbt | So having them in one package is fine |
| 10:06.25 | fbt | It won't be fro Devuan |
| 10:07.58 | Centurion_Dan | just thinking about it, the triggers stuff for deployment probably could be handled entirely in a debhelper tool meaning that their wouldn't be the need other then adding maintaining other init system scripts|service files|units for the package. |
| 10:08.36 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: I think it would be entirely doable |
| 10:09.02 | Centurion_Dan | Indeed. But for now we need to just get Devuan out the door. |
| 10:09.21 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 10:09.41 | KatolaZ | that's what I was going to write indeed :D |
| 10:10.48 | Centurion_Dan | First thing is to catch up on the packaging... I haven't done any in a while and their are a bunch of packages in jessie-updates and ascii that need to be updated. |
| 10:14.18 | Centurion_Dan | I need to also get the theme packages out, build grub with a patch to support grub2-themes |
| 10:14.21 | Centurion_Dan | etc.... |
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| 13:09.01 | Akuli | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sH6lopuzdc |
| 13:10.20 | telst4r | =) |
| 13:11.00 | Akuli | much better than the commercial posted here yesterday :DD |
| 13:15.30 | DusXMT | One thing that's unfortunately kinda true is that because they're so hardware-bound, dos-based windows systems are the fastest thing you can get on non-SMP x86 boxes... but of course, it's more of a toy than anything =3 (you especially don't want to connect one of these things to the internet) |
| 13:16.57 | telst4r | Right. |
| 13:19.47 | telst4r | Arachne ftw ! :D |
| 13:21.23 | telst4r | or maybe not. |
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| 15:41.21 | jsfarinet | irssi |
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| 15:47.03 | Akuli | i think there should be a /etc/debian_version symlink to /etc/devuan_version |
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| 15:55.27 | flrn | Akuli: that will work for Jessie only, if something expects an existing Debian codename |
| 15:55.45 | Akuli | chromium does that |
| 15:56.22 | Akuli | i'm not sure what it would use the debian version for, but without creating a symlink like that i get a warning on startup. it still runs just fine though |
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| 16:06.17 | flrn | it probably wants to leak it to the webserver... |
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| 19:56.25 | Humpelstilzchen | flrn: works with wine even if newer then jessie |
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| 21:39.58 | gci_admin | So, the manager that had me put Devuan beta 1 on his laptop picked it up this morning. He seems happy with it so far. :) |
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| 22:51.34 | sysop2 | hi which one of these docker images is official? https://hub.docker.com/search/?isAutomated=0&isOfficial=0&page=1&pullCount=0&q=devuan&starCount=0 |
| 22:51.58 | sysop2 | as in built by one of you guys |
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| 22:57.43 | hellekin | sysop2: we don't have an official docker image AFAIK. Official devuan images are at https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/ |
| 22:58.02 | hellekin | sysop2: that said I suspect people on this channel built the devuan docker images |
| 22:59.04 | sysop2 | I hope you get one soon. You know could just check out the ones on docker hub and pick one as the official image for now. |
| 22:59.18 | sysop2 | Just saying... |
| 22:59.37 | hellekin | sysop2: https://hub.docker.com/r/debitux/devuan/ seems legit |
| 22:59.50 | sysop2 | good enough for me! thanks! |
| 23:01.40 | hellekin | sysop2: I had to lift defenses in order to simply search this horrible docker site that calls facebook, google, and plenty of third parties before it allows you to see any search results. Not the kind of user-friendly sites we're used to in the free software movement. |
| 23:04.00 | SylvieLorxu | Ah, Docker |
| 23:04.16 | SylvieLorxu | The best way to run software is obviously on an OS build by someone else and then never properly maintained |
| 23:05.00 | SylvieLorxu | I honestly don't understand why anyone would ever use Docker but hey, I'm probably just old-fashioned :) |
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| 23:10.36 | hellekin | SylvieLorxu: apparently this image is simple enough to grab the latest packages from packages.devuan.org, so it's more like a debootstrap for the thumb generation. |
| 23:11.06 | SylvieLorxu | hellekin: Oh that actually sounds decent |
| 23:23.03 | Centurion_Dan | do we have a working cloudinit image? I'm need to deploy an AWS instance and I'd like to run Devuan on it. |
| 23:23.57 | golinux | Isn't there one that works on onennebula? |
| 23:27.20 | sysop2 | also any chance of you guys generating whatever files apt-file needs? Its one of the few things I miss from ubuntu |
| 23:29.45 | hellekin | golinux: yes, both opennebula and openstack. |
| 23:30.07 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: if AWS requires yet another image, I suggest their paid developers make it. |
| 23:30.08 | sysop2 | Docker is pretty corporate. I have had meetings with them. |
| 23:30.35 | fsmithred | Hey! |
| 23:30.45 | hellekin | sysop2: what does apt-file needs / does (that you need)? |
| 23:30.55 | sysop2 | sure hold on. |
| 23:31.24 | hellekin | what's up fsmithred? |
| 23:31.30 | fsmithred | apt-file tells you what package provides a file or what files a package provides, depending on how you ask. |
| 23:31.59 | fsmithred | oh, I meant for that as a ping to golinux, but I momentarily forgot how to use this irc client. |
| 23:32.31 | fsmithred | I miss apt-file, too. Right now, I chroot into my old wheezy installation to run it. |
| 23:32.47 | fsmithred | that works most of the time. |
| 23:33.21 | golinux | fsmithred: Hey back atcha! |
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| 23:34.00 | sysop2 | http://pastebin.com/fPTp7x97 |
| 23:34.13 | hellekin | fsmithred, sysop2: I don't get it. Can't you install apt-file? |
| 23:35.13 | sysop2 | I got apt file installed. oh crap I also have another repo installed so I could install firefox. its from linux mint. |
| 23:35.40 | hellekin | sysop2: sorry I have a policy of not going through cloudflare CAPTCHA. |
| 23:36.12 | sysop2 | I know they suck. who is your past provider of choice. |
| 23:36.21 | sysop2 | paste |
| 23:36.29 | hellekin | sysop2: I have apt-file 2.5.4 installed |
| 23:36.51 | sysop2 | do a apt-file update |
| 23:37.01 | sysop2 | do you get a bunch of errors? |
| 23:37.35 | hellekin | sysop2: alias PASTE='| torsocks curl -F ''sprunge=<-'' http://sprunge.us' (in my Zsh aliases) |
| 23:37.45 | sysop2 | thanks |
| 23:37.48 | hellekin | alias -G that is |
| 23:38.03 | hellekin | which allows: cat foo PASTE |
| 23:38.13 | hellekin | to paste the contents of file foo |
| 23:39.44 | hellekin | sysop2: alias -g PASTE="| torsocks curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us" |
| 23:39.54 | hellekin | works better eh? |
| 23:41.05 | sysop2 | still playing with it. |
| 23:42.09 | hellekin | sysop2: alias -g is specific to zsh |
| 23:42.19 | fsmithred | Ignoring source wihtout Contents file |
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| 23:42.39 | Centurion_Dan | hellekin: we should make and maintain it. Why trust someone else to do it wrong... |
| 23:43.25 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: because they can do it on their paid time? |
| 23:43.37 | hellekin | and they know their own technology best |
| 23:43.51 | hellekin | and Amazon sucks as an employer |
| 23:43.58 | Centurion_Dan | Sure, but that doesn't solve my problem of needing one now... |
| 23:44.38 | hellekin | then you need to make it yourself, no luck. Can't you install a Debian and fork it? ;) |
| 23:44.46 | fsmithred | hellekin, on 'apt-file update' I get "Ignoring source without Contents File:" for every devuan repo |
| 23:45.32 | hellekin | fsmithred: eh, I get "W: Don't know how to handle tor+http". Maybe we need to start filing bugs :) |
| 23:45.56 | fsmithred | ok |
| 23:46.35 | Centurion_Dan | hellekin: I've got to sell the idea to a customer. Being able to say Devuan has an AWS image improves the perception of being production ready... |
| 23:46.41 | sysop2 | apt-file update's output will not go to a file no matter what I did. it was weird. |
| 23:46.43 | hellekin | fsmithred: accessing the Contents-amd64.gz gives 404 |
| 23:47.16 | Centurion_Dan | they aren't generated yet. That feature will be part of the amprolla rewrite... |
| 23:47.29 | fsmithred | good to hear. |
| 23:47.53 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: you could test the idea in the mailing-list, see who would be interested in such an image, and see whether they're ready to pour money into it to make it happen fast. |
| 23:48.21 | sysop2 | glad to hear its on the roadmap how often do you guys plan on doing releases? |
| 23:48.42 | hellekin | fsmithred: seems like /devuan rather than /merged has the contents file |
| 23:48.55 | hellekin | sysop2: wait for it... When it's ready ;) |
| 23:50.02 | hellekin | sysop2: seriously, we're planning on another beta release probably in September/October. That should be the latest beta release before Jessie 1.0 (that's the theory I've heard so far) before the end of the year. |
| 23:50.05 | sysop2 | so far the only thing I don't like about devuan is no KDE5. but I will try my hand at that when I get a chance. I have compiled KDE from scratch before but it was back in the kde 3.5 days |
| 23:50.14 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~andrea@95.239.61.10) |
| 23:52.25 | hellekin | sysop2: I hope you and other DE users will pick up all DEs as we go. But Devuan itself will probably focus on non-desktop releases (and hopefully desktop setup will flourish as the Simple Distro Kit matures and makes it easy for you to release your own Devuan flavor) |
| 23:53.14 | hellekin | the only thing I personally would like to achieve with DEs in Devuan is a consistent graphical environment (under supervision of golinux) |
| 23:53.21 | sysop2 | what you guys need is a shuttleworth to setup a foundation for you guys. |
| 23:54.36 | hellekin | I'm sure we could ask shuttleworth for some support, but I'm not sure how to sell that ;) |
| 23:55.09 | sysop2 | not him, just someone like him that is willing to take him on. |
| 23:55.23 | fsmithred | hellekin, I added a line to sources.list with jessie instead of merged, and I get the same error on that. |
| 23:55.25 | hellekin | hopefully thousands of people will bring more stability and diversity than one hero type with a business plan |
| 23:55.40 | Centurion_Dan | We have a foundation, although Devuan is only one of it's projects. What we need is a foundation with a wholly owned subsidiary company to provide that enterprise front to the project. |
| 23:55.47 | hellekin | not jessie fsmithred, but devuan :) |
| 23:55.54 | golinux | hellekin: you sell it with your "soul". |
| 23:56.12 | hellekin | golinux: my soul is running out of cash |
| 23:56.34 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: rather than a single company, what about a cooperative of companies? |
| 23:56.38 | sysop2 | Centurion_Dan, thanks for the info. |
| 23:56.53 | hellekin | thinking out loud, but I suppose it could help leverage synergies |
| 23:57.17 | hellekin | especially as it would cover transnational territory |
| 23:57.36 | sysop2 | if it uses less resources selling it as a docker/cloud image should be easy. |
| 23:57.38 | hellekin | thinks everything is left to invention in free software business |
| 23:58.04 | fsmithred | doh! |
| 23:58.14 | fsmithred | doing too many things at once. |
| 23:58.38 | sysop2 | oh well ttyl need to get things done. |
| 23:58.51 | hellekin | sysop2: we have opennebula and openstack images already. That we can sell to ISPs / hosting companies. |
| 23:59.01 | fsmithred | can I replace merged with devuan on all the lines, or do I need to keep merged? |
| 23:59.41 | hellekin | fsmithred: /merged is required to use Amprolla's proxy. /devuan will only provide you the forked packages. |