| 00:00.17 | fsmithred | omg, the picasso quote in the next post is priceless |
| 00:01.23 | Chanku | which quote exactly? |
| 00:01.37 | fsmithred | about guernica |
| 00:01.40 | Chanku | Oh.. |
| 00:01.42 | Chanku | -doesn't get it- |
| 00:02.09 | fsmithred | you've never seen the painting? |
| 00:02.14 | Chanku | Nope |
| 00:02.47 | fsmithred | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_%28Picasso%29 |
| 00:03.19 | Chanku | "the C compiler itself MUST issue a diagnostic IF this is the first required diagnostic resulting from your program, and then MAY itself cause demons to fly from your nose (which, by the way, could well BE the documented diagnostic message) just as it MAY issue further diagnostics for further violations of syntax rules or constraints (or, for that matter, for any reason it chooses)."" |
| 00:07.29 | golinux | fsmithred: Downloaded refracta with lxrandr installed |
| 00:08.58 | golinux | Gwad! That adwaita pointer sucks. Very hard to see on a dark bg. And those tango icons UGH! |
| 00:09.20 | golinux | At least it's possible to change the resolution so thanks for that |
| 00:11.10 | golinux | hereby disavows responsibility for the choice of the mouse pointer theme or folder icons. |
| 00:15.04 | fsmithred | lol |
| 00:15.13 | fsmithred | wait. the folder icons are wrong??? |
| 00:15.33 | fsmithred | didn't you download the newer iso? |
| 00:15.35 | fsmithred | isos |
| 00:15.36 | Lydia_K | It blows my mind that there's no good xrandr GUI outside of the damned gnome one, which isn't really that great in and of itself. |
| 00:15.48 | fsmithred | Lydia_K, lxrandr rocks |
| 00:17.15 | fsmithred | golinux, refracta does not use tango icons |
| 00:19.29 | Lydia_K | Not in my opinion it doesn't. |
| 00:19.50 | fsmithred | I can do side by side monitors with one big screen |
| 00:20.16 | fsmithred | the Display gui in xfce won't do that |
| 00:20.31 | fsmithred | and I haven't tried gnome, because it won't work in a vm |
| 00:21.16 | fsmithred | so I don't know what I'm missing. |
| 00:21.47 | fsmithred | what do you need it to do? |
| 00:22.09 | Lydia_K | I hate to compare things to windows, but their little monitor management gui makes it incredibly simple to slap together any kind of multiple monitor config with simple drag and click, and it's not that xrandr can't do all of that, just all of the interfaces to do it are super clunky. |
| 00:22.29 | Lydia_K | Personally I just write little one line xrandr "scripts" |
| 00:22.47 | fsmithred | yeah, I made one for brightness |
| 00:23.03 | Lydia_K | but I'm just shocked no one has written a decent one that actually leverages the functionality of xrandr |
| 00:23.43 | Lydia_K | I looked into writing one myself at one point, but I've never done more than tinker with GUI programming and quickly lost interest cause I don't care for GUIs |
| 00:24.08 | fsmithred | only gui programming I know is yad/zenity on bash |
| 00:24.20 | golinux | fsmithred: I downloaded refracta8_xfce_i386_rc1-20160722_1444.iso |
| 00:24.29 | fsmithred | no tango |
| 00:24.31 | golinux | It was at the top of the list |
| 00:24.38 | fsmithred | yeah, that's the latest |
| 00:25.01 | fsmithred | it the lxde icon set |
| 00:25.06 | golinux | Should have the same folder and pointer icons as Devuan |
| 00:25.13 | fsmithred | why? |
| 00:26.11 | golinux | Because they are easier to see and look better IMO. |
| 00:27.43 | Lydia_K | LOL, I've used zenity to make "GUI programs" as well |
| 00:27.53 | golinux | To each his own I guess. For me it's a turn off. |
| 00:28.14 | fsmithred | I'm install dmz-cursor now to investigate |
| 00:28.22 | fsmithred | I've never messed with the mouse cursor |
| 00:28.27 | fsmithred | oh |
| 00:28.30 | fsmithred | not true |
| 00:28.43 | fsmithred | stopping. OT. |
| 00:28.50 | golinux | dmz-cursor white |
| 00:29.17 | golinux | thought this was #debianfork. Sorry |
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| 00:32.27 | robert-e | fsmithred: can you post a link? |
| 00:32.50 | fsmithred | yeah, next week when the upload is finished. |
| 00:33.04 | fsmithred | ok, only 53 minutes left |
| 00:33.42 | robert-e | fsmithred: oh oh ... heh heh..no problem |
| 00:36.32 | fsmithred | robert-e, it will be here - https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/experimental/ |
| 00:37.02 | fsmithred | openbox, no display manager, login user:user or root:root |
| 00:37.06 | fsmithred | startx |
| 00:37.24 | fsmithred | for removable media use pmount or spacefm |
| 00:37.48 | fsmithred | don't know if I installed enough to test bluetooth |
| 00:38.41 | fsmithred | sudo nopasswd for shutdown, reboot, pm-suspend... |
| 00:38.53 | fsmithred | oh, if you run live, then sudo everything |
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| 00:39.03 | fsmithred | hi rrq |
| 00:39.24 | rrq | hi |
| 00:39.41 | rrq | doing paid work |
| 00:39.57 | rrq | and more :-) |
| 00:40.09 | rrq | any luck? |
| 00:40.56 | rrq | I need to rework the helpfulness of the vdev package is for replacing udev |
| 00:40.59 | fsmithred | I'm uploading a live cd |
| 00:41.25 | rrq | it's "complicated" :-( |
| 00:41.25 | fsmithred | but I'm not sure what happens to initrd when you install it to hard drive |
| 00:41.46 | fsmithred | I assume that the new initrd that gets built will be for vdev |
| 00:41.57 | fsmithred | but how would one make a new udev initrd? |
| 00:42.03 | rrq | the vdev stuff is added, and the "bad" bit is that it replaces the init script (which belongs to initramfs-tools_ |
| 00:42.09 | rrq | ) |
| 00:42.30 | fsmithred | replaces /sbin/init? |
| 00:42.46 | rrq | no /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init |
| 00:43.00 | rrq | which is the init script that goes into initrd |
| 00:43.04 | fsmithred | vdev replaces that? I've been in that file. |
| 00:43.25 | fsmithred | yeah, we had to play with that two years ago to get the isos to boot |
| 00:43.39 | fsmithred | due to a change in util-linux |
| 00:44.13 | fsmithred | so to make a pure udev initrd, you'd need to keep a backup copy of init, and use that one. |
| 00:44.32 | fsmithred | I'm just thinking about ways to keep it easily switchable between vdev and udev |
| 00:44.50 | rrq | yes.. there are three things to deal with: |
| 00:45.00 | fsmithred | only way I figured out some of the stuff for action files was to boot back and forth to see how udev handled it |
| 00:45.08 | rrq | that init script, the rcS.d set up and the libudev1.so.1 link |
| 00:45.27 | fsmithred | the last is what I know least |
| 00:47.06 | rrq | right. 1) libudev1-compat installs its library libudev1.so.1.5.2 |
| 00:47.40 | rrq | 2) the link libudev1.so.1 is set to point to the choice (udev's or compat) |
| 00:48.27 | rrq | then you also need to run ldconfig |
| 00:49.44 | rrq | which *should* get the choice installed into the /etc/ld.so.cache (I think) |
| 00:50.08 | rrq | which is where dynamic linking picks up its resolutions |
| 00:50.17 | rrq | (I believe) |
| 00:50.34 | Lydia_K | Correct. |
| 00:51.02 | rrq | thinks: cheers. |
| 00:52.01 | Lydia_K | That, and the environment variables LD_LIBRARY_PATH and LD_PRELOAD, but those should only be used when you want to override the system defaults for a specific user/program. |
| 00:53.07 | rrq | of course all programs already loaded/started using old libudev1.so.?.?.? needs to be restarted. |
| 00:53.22 | rrq | like Xorg |
| 00:54.38 | fsmithred | so, does that link get changed when you install the vdev debs? |
| 00:55.57 | rrq | it should happen automagically by installing libudev1-compat |
| 00:56.22 | rrq | which is declared to provide, conflict and replace libudev1 (=215) |
| 00:56.46 | rrq | which is the particular version of Devuan 1.0.0 |
| 00:57.21 | rrq | though I think that needs rework |
| 00:57.22 | robert-e | I suppose all this "choice" moving back and forth between vdev and udev is okay, but will it need continued attention what-with the continuour evolvement/change in systemd et al? |
| 00:58.11 | robert-e | I mean .. will be continuously beating a dead horse in the long term? |
| 00:58.27 | fsmithred | I think it needs continued attention to get to beta |
| 01:00.15 | Lydia_K | Things will settle down eventually, it's a turbulent time. |
| 01:00.22 | fsmithred | I'm looking at the link - it points to libudev not libudev-compat |
| 01:00.42 | fsmithred | this is on the iso, which uses vdev 1.0, not 1.1 |
| 01:01.08 | rrq | the library is named libudev1.so.1.5.2 only the package is named libudev1-compat |
| 01:01.29 | fsmithred | so how do I know which one it is? |
| 01:02.56 | rrq | I usually do: dpkg -S libudev.so.1 |
| 01:04.27 | fsmithred | ok, it shows that the link is from -compat |
| 01:04.44 | fsmithred | 1.5.0 is the link target, and that's from libudev |
| 01:04.50 | fsmithred | 1.5.2 is from compat |
| 01:05.20 | fsmithred | so change that link, and ... do something with ldconfig? |
| 01:05.52 | rrq | hmmm the link should have changed... |
| 01:06.10 | rrq | a vdev choice includes the link being changed |
| 01:07.37 | rrq | I need to learn more about deb packaging |
| 01:07.50 | rrq | or rather not try to be fancy here |
| 01:08.17 | fsmithred | it points to 1.5.2 in the installation that has vdev 1.1 |
| 01:08.38 | fsmithred | not in the one that used 1.0 |
| 01:08.45 | fsmithred | and I used 1.0 for the live iso |
| 01:09.03 | fsmithred | because with 1.1 I got no mouse or keyboard in X |
| 01:10.26 | rrq | ok.. libudev1-compat had that change between 1.0 and 1.1; of declaring everything so as to fully replace libudev1... which is not right when you want to preserve a choice |
| 01:11.06 | fsmithred | good, I don't have to stop this ungodly long upload |
| 01:11.38 | rrq | I think we need a switching tool/script to poke at all things in favour of udev or vdev at the whim of the user. |
| 01:11.55 | rrq | rather than packaging (me) making the choice |
| 01:12.02 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm thinking of making a live-usb disk image with a persistent partition |
| 01:12.22 | fsmithred | any changes get written to the persistent, and if necessary, wipe it out and start over |
| 01:12.32 | fsmithred | the read-only live system stays the same |
| 01:12.47 | fsmithred | but uses any changes on boot |
| 01:13.58 | robert-e | Understanding that precludes using a livecd/livedvd and requiring a usb boot..no problem for me, but might others. |
| 01:14.36 | fsmithred | most people around here can handle dd'ing an image to a usb stick |
| 01:14.52 | robert-e | yep |
| 01:15.19 | fsmithred | and simple instructions that say, delete these files and directories if things go south |
| 01:16.51 | fsmithred | then reboot the base system and make new changes |
| 01:17.39 | fsmithred | brb |
| 01:20.01 | fsmithred | robert-e, your machine does amd64? |
| 01:20.19 | rrq | pencils in some quality time with vdev later tonight, to add a friendly choice script and update packages |
| 01:20.32 | fsmithred | cool |
| 01:20.50 | fsmithred | oh, add my changes for parport.act and printer.act, please. |
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| 01:22.14 | rrq | ok; ... eeh would you mind emailing them to me (again?) |
| 01:22.19 | fsmithred | np |
| 01:22.42 | robert-e | fsmithred: Yes..64 bit |
| 01:24.23 | robert-e | fsmithred: I can use an amd or an intel...which one would you prefer for testing? |
| 01:26.18 | fsmithred | doesn't matter. I didn't make a 386 iso. |
| 01:26.58 | fsmithred | it is an isohybrid image, so you could dd it to a thumb drive |
| 01:27.15 | fsmithred | and test both |
| 01:27.26 | fsmithred | plug in all manner of devices to see what happens |
| 01:28.21 | robert-e | fsmithred: Okay will do both..will be back in couple of hours to report. |
| 01:29.14 | fsmithred | ok, I'll check botbot. Will probably be asleep then. |
| 01:29.46 | fsmithred | nine more minutes! |
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| 01:33.12 | robert-e | fsmithred: Is this the correct iso..date seems wrong? Download unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160817_1926.iso (818.9 MB) |
| 01:36.24 | golinux | robert-e: I think it will be here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/experimental/ |
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| 01:40.25 | fsmithred | yeah, it's in experimental |
| 01:40.43 | fsmithred | not unofficial live devuan |
| 01:40.58 | robert-e | golinux: Yes, that was the url I looked at...the date shows 20160817 ??? |
| 01:41.10 | fsmithred | https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/experimental/ |
| 01:41.22 | fsmithred | and check the md5sum |
| 01:41.38 | robert-e | mds5 sum show todays date. |
| 01:42.09 | fsmithred | lol, no, that's not how you do that. |
| 01:42.18 | fsmithred | hang on, let me check it on the server first. |
| 01:42.58 | robert-e | no...what I mean is that the file date on the mds5sum shows todays date, and the date shown in the iso is august 17th...? |
| 01:43.08 | fsmithred | you've got the wrong iso |
| 01:43.23 | robert-e | That is the only one on that page. |
| 01:43.35 | robert-e | I refreshed the browser just tomake sure. |
| 01:43.57 | fsmithred | in the experimetal folder? |
| 01:44.16 | robert-e | Yes the folder in your link posted here. |
| 01:44.28 | fsmithred | weird |
| 01:44.43 | fsmithred | I'm seeing the right one, and it's even in the link for latest version |
| 01:44.50 | fsmithred | which is really not a good thing |
| 01:45.48 | robert-e | I did a copy and past in the iso file name (if you scroll up you will see what I mean) wrt to the date in the iso filename. |
| 01:46.14 | fsmithred | what happens if you go to this link - http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/refracta/experimental/jessie_ob_vdev-20160906_1949.iso?r=https%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Frefracta%2Ffiles%2Fexperimental%2F&ts=1473212723&use_mirror=master |
| 01:46.17 | fsmithred | mnoooooooooooooooo |
| 01:46.18 | fsmithred | no |
| 01:46.20 | fsmithred | not that one |
| 01:46.24 | fsmithred | well, maybe |
| 01:46.30 | fsmithred | wtf, try it |
| 01:47.24 | fsmithred | anyway, the md5sum on the server checks out |
| 01:47.39 | fsmithred | download the iso, download the md5 file. |
| 01:47.46 | golinux | robert-e: Refresh the page maybe? |
| 01:48.02 | fsmithred | cat jessie_ob_whatever.md5 |
| 01:48.09 | fsmithred | it'll print a number |
| 01:48.13 | golinux | Clear cache too |
| 01:48.24 | fsmithred | then 'md5sum jessie_blah.iso' |
| 01:48.28 | golinux | Sometimes pages get "stuck" |
| 01:48.36 | fsmithred | will print a number - they should be the same. |
| 01:49.14 | robert-e | fsmithred: that url took me to a 580 mb download window...I think based on your previous comments it should be the right one...jesse et all...will download it now...oh yes..I did refresh the browser..no joy. |
| 01:49.29 | fsmithred | golinux, it's a brand new folder. It shouldn't be in anyone's cache. |
| 01:49.36 | fsmithred | yes 580 is right |
| 01:50.44 | robert-e | fsmithred: okay downloading now...Will start with the intel machine for testing. |
| 01:50.48 | fsmithred | well, I guess it could be in robert's cache - I gave him the link before the download finished |
| 01:50.50 | fsmithred | cool |
| 01:50.51 | golinux | Only 64bit, right? |
| 01:50.55 | fsmithred | yes |
| 01:51.05 | golinux | Leaves m eout of the mix |
| 01:51.11 | fsmithred | I chose that because that's what most people have been downloading |
| 01:51.29 | golinux | np. Would probably be in over my head anyway |
| 01:51.29 | fsmithred | you have a 64-bit machine. Wait until I make a usb image and you can boot that. |
| 01:52.06 | fsmithred | yeah, your time is better spent on other things. |
| 01:52.39 | fsmithred | this is for people who like it when a system doesn't boot. |
| 01:54.05 | robert-e | fsmithred: 8 minutes to go...will get out of here and get the thinkpad ready. |
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| 07:09.31 | robert-e | fsmithred: ran live usb on intel 64 thinkpad..openbox took some getting used to...automount usb stick did not work, but pmount did, OTOH pumount did not work. installed mpg124 and mp3 music did play ie. alsa |
| 07:12.44 | robert-e | worked right off. Apt-get installed chirp, and ran normal. messed about trying to install slim, but no joy there. eth0 worked right off. Installed the intel wireless driver with dpkg, but would not get the wireless |
| 07:15.51 | robert-e | working...it would not find the intel wireless device; so could not test wpa_supplicant. Was very fast for running off a usb stick. Impressed. Will attempt a hard drive install tomorrow evening. |
| 07:16.09 | robert-e | Wife has Dr. appt in city tomorrow. |
| 07:16.19 | robert-e | later |
| 07:18.09 | robert-e | err mpg124 > mpg123 |
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| 12:14.32 | FNTM-U3 | hello |
| 12:14.57 | FNTM-U3 | I want to connect to a l2tp server and make a vpn cconnection |
| 12:15.06 | FNTM-U3 | I am using wicd |
| 12:15.23 | FNTM-U3 | I need a client not related not network manager for this job |
| 12:15.29 | FNTM-U3 | what is out there? |
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| 20:47.06 | aitor | oh, kitttenGNU desappeared.... |
| 20:47.20 | aitor | kitten :) |
| 20:51.17 | Lydia_K | :D |
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| 21:31.52 | rrq | aitor: fsmithred: last night I uploaded 1.2, with manual choice script. Seeemed to work. |
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| 21:36.34 | fsmithred | oh |
| 21:36.36 | fsmithred | hi rrq |
| 21:36.56 | rrq | morning :-) |
| 21:37.18 | fsmithred | ok, I'm about to upload a live usb image that has 1.0 installed |
| 21:37.40 | fsmithred | can I use the debs to update from 1.0 to 1.2? |
| 21:37.44 | fsmithred | on the installed system |
| 21:38.36 | rrq | hmm... the new packages don't declare provides for libudev1 and udev |
| 21:39.29 | fsmithred | were they supposed to? |
| 21:41.03 | rrq | well, I would think dpkg pays attention to this, to for instance remove anything depending on X when X is removed. |
| 21:43.20 | fsmithred | doesn't provides also mean 'takes the place of'? |
| 21:43.28 | rrq | and right: 1.0 wasn't at all friendly to udev things.. so it may require manual recovery |
| 21:43.48 | rrq | recovery of udev and initramfstools, and maybe libudev1 even |
| 21:43.57 | fsmithred | you mean if upgrading? |
| 21:44.03 | rrq | reinstall |
| 21:44.06 | rrq | yes |
| 21:44.15 | fsmithred | I have plenty of space for another partition, and I can start fresh |
| 21:45.35 | rrq | version 1.2 is much friendler to the other kids. |
| 21:46.12 | fsmithred | what do I have to do to boot vdev or udev by choice? |
| 21:46.54 | fsmithred | or should that idea be abandoned? |
| 21:47.16 | rrq | script /usr/share/vdev/vdev-install.sh lets you choose |
| 21:47.53 | fsmithred | what does it do? |
| 21:49.57 | rrq | The three things: redirect the library pointer, replaces the initramfs files, and sets up rcS.d for the choice. |
| 21:50.46 | rrq | With "dialog" you can even make the choice through that :-) |
| 21:50.55 | fsmithred | ok |
| 21:51.08 | rrq | "/usr/share/vdev/vdev-install.sh dialog" |
| 21:51.28 | fsmithred | so you'd run that before you want to reboot with a different device manager? |
| 21:51.58 | rrq | When the vdev packag is installed it saves the udev files for initramfs building, so it can restore later |
| 21:52.03 | rrq | yes. |
| 21:52.09 | fsmithred | cool |
| 21:52.58 | rrq | requires persistent disk of course. |
| 21:53.10 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 21:53.20 | fsmithred | that's not a problem |
| 21:54.18 | rrq | I made the package run "vdev-install.sh vdev", since "dialog" is not installed in Devuan 1.0.0 |
| 21:54.49 | rrq | and I didn't bother adding a command line choice dialog. |
| 21:55.06 | fsmithred | doesn't debconf use dialog? |
| 21:55.48 | rrq | It's used during the installation, but not in the installed. |
| 21:57.44 | fsmithred | brb |
| 22:01.24 | rrq | bbl |
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| 22:48.59 | fsmithred | wn |
| 22:50.36 | rrq | wn? |
| 22:51.00 | rrq | reading urban dictionary |
| 22:51.55 | fsmithred | oops |
| 22:52.07 | fsmithred | I guess that's welcome nap? |
| 22:52.38 | fsmithred | I uploaded usb image here - http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/ |
| 22:52.46 | rrq | ah. right. thanks. I enjoyed a morning travel through the long awaited spring morning. |
| 22:53.11 | rrq | at office doing "serious work" :-) |
| 22:55.20 | fsmithred | I just woke from a nap. |
| 22:59.05 | rrq | hmm.. the downloading chokes after 1.8M ... |
| 23:00.44 | fsmithred | uh oh |
| 23:01.00 | fsmithred | I switched most stuff to sourceforge, because it's faster |
| 23:01.21 | fsmithred | but I can't but another 1G on there unless I delete stuff. |
| 23:01.38 | fsmithred | and I still need to write some instructions for that image |
| 23:02.02 | fsmithred | dd to a usb stick, boot one of the first two entries (live, read-only), |
| 23:02.26 | fsmithred | then run gparted and resize the second partition - it's only 80mb to keep the image small |
| 23:02.51 | fsmithred | then reboot one of the r/w entries if you want persistence |
| 23:03.25 | golinux | The DL keeps failing |
| 23:03.49 | fsmithred | shit, ralph is having same problem |
| 23:04.10 | rrq | no worries. fyi I tried three from three hosts, one in US, and they all choke after 1,875,260 bytes |
| 23:04.16 | fsmithred | wget -c http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/r8_i386_vdev_usb-hdd.img |
| 23:04.26 | fsmithred | will continue where it left off |
| 23:05.02 | golinux | At first it said a time of 24 min, started then a few secs later failed |
| 23:05.13 | rrq | continue = 'continue waiting' :-) |
| 23:06.47 | fsmithred | yes, that's the magic number: 1875260 |
| 23:06.50 | fsmithred | wtf? |
| 23:07.03 | rrq | dl to ireland is no happier |
| 23:07.21 | fsmithred | Heanet is usually good |
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| 23:08.22 | golinux | It's stuck at 1.79M. Pretty much the same a rrq |
| 23:08.33 | fsmithred | hm, can I upload 1G to my gitlab account? |
| 23:10.57 | rrq | no rush for my sake f course. I have a full day anyhow. |
| 23:11.02 | golinux | Second try, same result. |
| 23:11.52 | fsmithred | yeah, I got it, too. |
| 23:12.04 | fsmithred | The hours just increase. |
| 23:13.46 | fsmithred | anyone know if git.devuan.org has disk limits and what they are? |
| 23:25.29 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 23:37.11 | rrq | vdev-initramfs version 1.2 is set up to provide user choice between udev and vdev, "beneath" dpkg. |
| 23:37.50 | rrq | this might be sufficient for test running vdev |
| 23:38.38 | rrq | udev and vdev are then independent in the eyes of dpkg. |
| 23:39.17 | fsmithred | sounds good. I'll download the new packages and play with them. |
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