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| 00:21.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | softfp isn't exactly "no fp" - it just means apps use shared lib to do math afaik. The shared lib itself then uses FP-coproc, so the difference is not what you might think it was, between softfp and hardware fp |
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| 00:52.38 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05: debian's armel is for armv4t (and compatible) |
| 00:53.51 | Pali | and I do not see fp instructions for amrv4t... |
| 00:54.37 | Pali | softfp does not mean "no fp", just it does not use fp registers for library ABI... |
| 00:55.01 | Pali | but I cannot find armv4t has fp support or not |
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| 07:18.46 | hellekin | really nice reading all this on N900 and Maemo. Thank you Pali, parazyd for taking this up! |
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| 07:19.48 | aitor | Pali: i assume that fp means floating point... |
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| 07:43.53 | aitor | hellekin: Maemo or MeeGo? |
| 07:44.22 | aitor | meego is the evolution of maemo (and moblin) |
| 07:45.42 | aitor | there is another system based largely on meego: Sailfish OS |
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| 07:49.33 | aitor | all of them in qt5 |
| 07:49.35 | muep | I did not ever mess much with meego, but my impression is that the similarities are mostly limited to appearance and use of linux and qt |
| 07:50.11 | aitor | all of them in qt, i mean to say |
| 07:50.22 | aitor | only sailfish os is developed in qt5 |
| 07:50.45 | aitor | yes muep, there is nothing in gtk |
| 07:50.58 | hellekin | aitor: sounds to me like offering a Devuan-based upstream for Maemo |
| 07:51.05 | aitor | but the gtk containers system is good fot that |
| 07:51.33 | aitor | that's a very good idea |
| 07:51.42 | muep | the UI layer seems similar but afaik the plumbing otherwise is not at all similar in meego and sailfish |
| 07:52.17 | aitor | hellekin: i'm finishing it, give me a few minuts, lol... |
| 07:55.21 | aitor | i need coffee, see you :) |
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| 09:50.15 | AntoFox | morning!! |
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| 10:13.47 | aitor | good morning |
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| 10:21.30 | MDrights | Good evening :) |
| 10:21.52 | MDrights | has just install Refracta Ceres |
| 10:22.18 | telst4r | good day! |
| 10:23.38 | aitor | happy day to all ! |
| 10:24.02 | AntoFox | during this day I update hezeh.org and the related repo. stay tuned |
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| 10:27.07 | fsmithred | aitor, did you get your sound working? |
| 10:28.11 | AntoFox | have you finished simple-netaid-gtk? |
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| 10:31.09 | aitor | fsmithred: still not |
| 10:31.31 | fsmithred | sorry I have no new ideas on that |
| 10:31.32 | aitor | i've done a fresh installation of Gnuinos 2 |
| 10:32.16 | aitor | now i'm going to install vdev, shortly i will confirm to you |
| 10:32.53 | fsmithred | did you update the vdev in the repo in the past week? |
| 10:32.55 | aitor | yesterday i tried using headphones, with the same result |
| 10:33.09 | aitor | i will do it today |
| 10:33.26 | fsmithred | so I'm using an older version than you? |
| 10:33.38 | aitor | i'm doing some changes in vdev-initramfs |
| 10:34.49 | aitor | basically the changes are in vdev-initramfs tools, and i am using the same repo |
| 10:35.03 | fsmithred | you mentioned before that you made some changes in packaging refractasnapshot. Did you move some files to different locations? |
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| 10:36.11 | aitor | no, i didn't consider it necessary |
| 10:36.32 | aitor | you can download the sources using apt> |
| 10:36.32 | fsmithred | ah, ok. |
| 10:36.46 | aitor | apt-get source refractasnapshot |
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| 10:37.23 | fsmithred | what does that give you? |
| 10:37.46 | fsmithred | I'll try that |
| 10:38.11 | aitor | you can use git-buildpackage from now on |
| 10:38.40 | aitor | any doubt, just ask |
| 10:38.52 | Akuli | apt-get source is nice |
| 10:39.00 | aitor | yes |
| 10:39.05 | Akuli | only problem with it is that it creates a bunch of different files and folders |
| 10:39.12 | Akuli | i'd like to get everything into one folder |
| 10:39.31 | fsmithred | is wondering what the sources of his scripts look like |
| 10:41.29 | aitor | download the sources, and have a look at the .install files |
| 10:42.58 | aitor | and the Makefile... |
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| 10:44.02 | fsmithred | gonna do that - had to reboot the laptop |
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| 10:45.33 | aitor | see you later, i'll try again with vdev |
| 10:45.38 | aitor | need to reboot too |
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| 10:55.48 | aitor | fsmithred: |
| 10:55.51 | aitor | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3641PRBleI |
| 10:56.35 | aitor | the sond works ! |
| 10:56.56 | aitor | the sound :) |
| 11:00.27 | aitor | see you later |
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| 11:13.08 | DanMc | My apologies for the thoughtless question yesterday regarding what I perceived to be a possible bug with Catfish opening Audacious. It was a simple mime type issue that a friend helped me with. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees. |
| 11:17.01 | Akuli | yeah i was thinking that the program probably just calls xdg-open |
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| 11:19.28 | aitor | i did a test this morning, and the file has been opened succesfully with pcmanfm |
| 11:20.28 | DanMc | It was calling xdg-open. |
| 11:21.13 | aitor | btw, running catfish you can see another example of a blocked spinner due to a singlethread process |
| 11:21.40 | aitor | the spinner doesn't work while catfish is searching the files |
| 11:21.57 | aitor | it should be multithreaded |
| 11:22.28 | aitor | the same happended to me developing simple-netaid-gtk |
| 11:23.20 | DanMc | Ahh...okay. Thanks aitor. |
| 11:26.01 | aitor | i did a class for such cases |
| 11:26.13 | aitor | brb |
| 11:33.58 | jaromil | greets from Gothenburg while at FSCONS will present Devuan at 14:30 - will be recorded, but there is no live stream |
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| 13:11.05 | PnUic | hi |
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| 13:42.00 | leafwiz | Hey, I have slim installed. But I kida struggle with getting it to choose a default desktop env. I would like to have mate started , but now it starts xmonad. I have edited .xinitrc to contain exec mate-session, but still it defaults to xmonad only |
| 13:43.21 | Hestben | leafwiz: Does /var/log/slim.log say anything interesting? |
| 13:44.30 | leafwiz | slim: waiting for X server to begin accepting connections. |
| 13:44.30 | leafwiz | slim: pam_authentication(): Authentication failure |
| 13:44.55 | leafwiz | the waiting for X server, is repeated a couple of times |
| 13:45.41 | leafwiz | mate works on my system, it is just that I have to press f1 before I log in. I would prefer not to do that. |
| 13:46.16 | Hestben | leafwiz: I see. I don't have more experience with slim, so I don't think I can help you further |
| 13:46.33 | leafwiz | Hestben: okay. Which login manager do you use? |
| 13:47.07 | Hestben | Still using debian jessie mostly. Is it lightdm default? |
| 13:47.13 | Hestben | I haven't changed it |
| 13:47.27 | Hestben | I got slim starting xfce on my gentoo just the other day |
| 13:49.15 | Hestben | And your 'startx' starts mate-session? |
| 13:49.18 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:50.36 | fsmithred | you have /etc/alternatives/x-session-manager? It should be a symlink pointing to whatever starts your desktop. |
| 13:55.59 | leafwiz | fsmithred: aha.. yeah, I could try that |
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| 14:12.52 | leafwiz | So I found that I have to use ~/.xsession , instead of ~/.xinitrc , applies to both slim and lightdm |
| 14:13.03 | leafwiz | fyi :) |
| 14:15.03 | Hestben | leafwiz: good to know, thanks for finding that out |
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| 14:47.13 | PnUic | hi |
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| 15:29.56 | parazyd | raspberry pi 1 arm image is up! :) will also probably work on pi0: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/testing/devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta2.rc1_armel_raspi1.img.xz |
| 15:30.04 | parazyd | try it out please |
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| 15:49.00 | golinux | jaromil: How did the talk go at FSCONS? And when will the video be available? |
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| 15:52.41 | telst4r | cool parazyd , Will try out on monday when I'm at my Pi 1 B |
| 15:52.59 | parazyd | neat :) |
| 15:53.03 | parazyd | let me know how it goes |
| 15:54.07 | telst4r | is it a 2 or 4gb img? |
| 15:57.26 | telst4r | I thought Rpi 1 is an armHF machine, not -el? |
| 16:01.05 | telst4r | well, we'll see. |
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| 16:19.51 | muep | telst4r: all rpi devices can use either armel function calling convention or armhf function calling convention |
| 16:21.53 | parazyd | telst4r: it's about 1.3 GB |
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| 16:22.21 | parazyd | could be probably stripped a bit more, but i like to leave some extra zeroes |
| 16:22.48 | muep | I am not actually aware of any device that could use armhf but not armel |
| 16:23.19 | parazyd | muep: it's only the other way |
| 16:23.27 | parazyd | armel always works everywhere |
| 16:23.50 | parazyd | (implying the cpu arch is compatible) |
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| 16:24.55 | muep | I guess the calling convention part would work, but if somone made a silly combination like armel calling convention and armv7 instructions, those would not run on rpi 0/1 either |
| 16:25.52 | parazyd | yep |
| 16:26.04 | parazyd | i baked a fresh armv6 toolchain for this yesterday |
| 16:26.07 | telst4r | muep: alright, probably raspbian just got me confused. |
| 16:26.34 | muep | raspbian does armhf but with armv6 instructions instead of armv7 like stock debian would |
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| 16:29.01 | telst4r | yes, that's what was confusing me. I heard debian armel works on rpi1 but its "sub-par" somehow |
| 16:30.32 | muep | debian armel uses armv4 or suchlike, which is also compatible for rpi0/1. it just does not use all the features that an armv6 capable CPU could offer |
| 16:35.45 | telst4r | Oh, okay. so not all the bells and whistles of a v6 are utilized, but works just fine like on any other arm |
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| 16:44.24 | parazyd | indeed |
| 16:44.36 | muep | yes. on some workloads, especially with floating point, it makes a quite large performance difference. but it is compatible anyway |
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| 17:27.13 | aitor | jaromil: you didn't answer to the question of golinux |
| 17:27.22 | aitor | need to go |
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| 17:28.31 | Pali | parazyd: rpi1 image? it was very quick since yesterday... |
| 17:29.13 | Pali | I will be able to test it in next month... I did not think that it will be available for testing in this month! |
| 17:29.29 | parazyd | :) |
| 17:29.55 | parazyd | fwiw, i got a login shell, so i'm guessing all is fine |
| 17:30.34 | Pali | are there plans to use raspbian as upstream source? |
| 17:30.57 | Pali | that would benefit in speed, to use armhf... |
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| 17:31.22 | Pali | in such applications like web browser or floating-point audio/video decoding... |
| 17:31.50 | aitor | why raspbian? |
| 17:32.25 | Pali | because it compiles armhf DEB packages for armv6 |
| 17:32.34 | aitor | we must use our own distribution |
| 17:32.58 | Pali | another option is to recompile all packages for armhf |
| 17:33.40 | Pali | but raspbian takes packages from debian, so reusing should be easier as recompiling everything... |
| 17:34.22 | aitor | we must use the tools from devuan |
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| 17:35.07 | Pali | which tools? |
| 17:35.33 | aitor | it's very easy |
| 17:35.43 | aitor | debootstrap |
| 17:36.06 | parazyd | Pali: would need a separate amprolla |
| 17:36.34 | Pali | I'm just saying that raspbian modify only some packages, others are just recompiled for armv6 armhf |
| 17:36.38 | aitor | parazyd :) |
| 17:36.55 | Pali | and devuan will do same, so I think it make sense to reuse those packages as they will be same... |
| 17:37.16 | Pali | parazyd: ok |
| 17:39.05 | parazyd | nextime: can amprolla use a different upstream for a specific package architecture? |
| 17:39.48 | parazyd | if not, consider it a feature request :p |
| 17:40.16 | Pali | parazyd: what is needed is to have two different armhf architectures |
| 17:40.25 | Pali | one from debian --> for rpi2+ |
| 17:40.33 | Pali | and one from raspbian --> for rpi1 |
| 17:40.56 | Pali | both needs to be named armhf |
| 17:40.57 | aitor | the biggest problem, IMHO, is in the partitioning..., the rest is done. |
| 17:41.14 | Pali | so they must be on different uris |
| 17:41.20 | parazyd | Pali: yeah i'm wondering |
| 17:41.26 | parazyd | aitor: what partitioning? |
| 17:42.15 | muep | are the older rpis and rpi0 an important enough an use case to justify doing an entire extra architecture? |
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| 17:42.21 | muep | for anyone else than raspbian, that is |
| 17:43.06 | parazyd | muep: sure, it doesn't really waste resources |
| 17:43.09 | aitor | parazyd: one moment |
| 17:43.13 | parazyd | with amprolla |
| 17:44.09 | aitor | a friend is calling me on the phone |
| 17:44.20 | aitor | one minute |
| 17:44.27 | parazyd | Pali: rethinking it... i guess rpi1 can stick with armel |
| 17:44.42 | muep | of course it is just nice if that can be done with little or reasonable effort. but I just kind of assumed that it'd be a non-trivial amount of work |
| 17:44.43 | parazyd | Pali: and then just use the vanilla armhf for maemo/n900 |
| 17:45.01 | parazyd | Pali: would cut down a lot of work |
| 17:45.05 | Pali | armhf is incomaptible with maemo |
| 17:45.20 | Pali | existing maemo applications are armel (armv7-a) |
| 17:45.39 | aitor | here i am again |
| 17:46.05 | muep | I wonder how they ended up using armel for a product that uses a cortex-a8 |
| 17:46.13 | parazyd | Pali: indeed, i rushed a little bit. was thinking more in the way of running devuan on n900 |
| 17:46.21 | parazyd | which i already provide an image for |
| 17:47.14 | aitor | i would like to know your opinion about gtk vs qt |
| 17:49.05 | parazyd | gtk2 > qt4, qt5 > gtk3 |
| 17:49.06 | Pali | muep: I think binary compatibility with n8x0 applications... |
| 17:50.52 | aitor | let me assimilate it |
| 17:53.01 | aitor | who is willing to develop in gtk2? |
| 17:54.35 | parazyd | aitor: what are you trying to do? |
| 17:54.57 | aitor | ? |
| 17:55.22 | aitor | i'm only developing some applications |
| 17:56.11 | muep | for new applications, qt 5 is a at least a quite sensible pick |
| 17:56.35 | parazyd | qt5++ |
| 17:56.56 | muep | though it is a far wider thing than e.g. gtk3 |
| 17:58.16 | aitor | qt5++ ??? |
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| 17:59.12 | Gup | parazyd, thanks for the rpi1 image, will test it now :) |
| 17:59.32 | parazyd | Gup: cool, let me know |
| 17:59.34 | aitor | qt uses classes since ever |
| 18:00.02 | freemangordon | Pali: what is the problem of maemo packages being armel? |
| 18:00.15 | aitor | classes |
| 18:00.16 | Pali | incompatibility with armhf |
| 18:00.42 | freemangordon | Pali: ok, but how's that related to devuan? |
| 18:00.48 | Pali | debian's armel is armv4... no neon, no thumb2 |
| 18:01.22 | Pali | so devuan's armel is also armv4 |
| 18:02.16 | freemangordon | ok, but even if it was armv7, you can't simply install most of the maemo packages an expect them to tun, right? |
| 18:02.25 | freemangordon | *run |
| 18:02.54 | aitor | consider the following point: |
| 18:03.25 | aitor | the lightest Qt desktop is Lxqt |
| 18:03.46 | aitor | it depends on openbox |
| 18:03.58 | aitor | and openbox is gtk |
| 18:03.58 | parazyd | freemangordon: you can recompile them, why not? |
| 18:04.03 | muep | aitor: is it? |
| 18:04.08 | aitor | yes |
| 18:04.17 | muep | I thought openbox mostly uses some custom drawing |
| 18:04.44 | freemangordon | parazyd: because of the GTK2/hildon dependecies |
| 18:04.46 | parazyd | aitor: openbox has nothing to do with gtk |
| 18:04.53 | muep | at least its window menus do not look like gtk menus IIRC |
| 18:05.12 | parazyd | freemangordon: iirc Pali said there's a way to do it |
| 18:05.20 | parazyd | rebuild hildon |
| 18:05.30 | aitor | muep... |
| 18:05.35 | freemangordon | aah, I see :) |
| 18:05.36 | aitor | you are wrong |
| 18:05.45 | parazyd | aitor: openbox uses pango |
| 18:06.03 | muep | aitor: ldd /usr/bin/openbox|grep -i gtk gives nothing here |
| 18:06.39 | freemangordon | Pali: I missed the start of the conversation, couldn' t find it in the logs, is it related somehow to what I am doing lately? |
| 18:06.50 | aitor | i'll upload a video tomorrow |
| 18:07.08 | aitor | Gnuinos 1 |
| 18:07.21 | muep | I think there are some config tools for openbox that do use gtk in some way, but those are optional |
| 18:07.28 | aitor | using a dinamical menu in gtk |
| 18:07.58 | parazyd | muep: yep, it's obconf usually, but then again obconf can be compiled for qt if needed |
| 18:08.19 | muep | they have two UI implementations? |
| 18:08.23 | parazyd | yes |
| 18:08.40 | parazyd | lxqt ported it |
| 18:08.45 | parazyd | from gtk |
| 18:08.49 | muep | impressive |
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| 18:14.20 | aitor | it's been a long time since i don't use lxqt; so, i can't give my opinion |
| 18:16.06 | parazyd | aitor: what do you use now? |
| 18:16.15 | aitor | openbox |
| 18:16.49 | parazyd | i like it a lot |
| 18:16.59 | aitor | me too |
| 18:17.41 | parazyd | although i use dwm only |
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| 18:20.49 | aitor | a simple custom widget using a css file with transparencies might be the main window of a Devuan-based upstream for Maemo |
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| 18:24.44 | aitor | parazyd: i saw your video recorded with your C code |
| 18:25.22 | aitor | which WM? |
| 18:25.23 | parazyd | aitor: which one? |
| 18:25.33 | parazyd | dwm |
| 18:25.39 | parazyd | http://dwm.suckless.org |
| 18:25.40 | freemangordon | aitor: we are trying to port hildon to gtk3 |
| 18:25.51 | aitor | What means dwm |
| 18:26.01 | parazyd | see the link |
| 18:26.24 | parazyd | freemangordon: lovely :) |
| 18:27.06 | freemangordon | the last couple of weeks I am REing the closed maemo blobs, today I finished the last one needed (so far) - iphbd |
| 18:27.32 | freemangordon | I have it running right now on my pc in chroot (started by dsme) |
| 18:28.00 | freemangordon | another guy is doing the porting job. Lets see how it will go :) |
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| 18:29.05 | parazyd | freemangordon: btw what ended up with the init thing you were mentioning in #maemo yesterday? |
| 18:29.12 | parazyd | going for upstart? |
| 18:29.34 | aitor | freemangordon, i just saw it in internet |
| 18:30.16 | freemangordon | parazyd: well, *SOMEHOW* I managed to install it, but as Pali told me, it refused to work :D - init wants PID 1 |
| 18:30.32 | parazyd | yes you can't init in a chroot |
| 18:30.36 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 18:30.51 | parazyd | you can qemu though |
| 18:30.51 | freemangordon | so at the end I started dsme by hand |
| 18:30.55 | parazyd | it would work |
| 18:31.05 | parazyd | make a raw image out of the chroot |
| 18:31.10 | freemangordon | yeah, but that will be the next step I guess |
| 18:31.13 | Pali | init daemon just spawn services |
| 18:31.15 | parazyd | then you can mount it whenever you need to make changes |
| 18:31.18 | Pali | and dsme is service |
| 18:31.23 | parazyd | freemangordon: but why upstart? |
| 18:31.25 | Pali | so you can spawn it also manually |
| 18:31.28 | freemangordon | aitor: which one? |
| 18:31.39 | freemangordon | parazyd: because this is what maemo uses |
| 18:31.40 | Pali | no need to install and run heavy SW like init daemon to only start some service.... |
| 18:32.02 | parazyd | i'd rather switch to runit |
| 18:32.07 | parazyd | tbh |
| 18:32.39 | freemangordon | TBH I have no clue, so will do what knowledgeable say :) |
| 18:33.09 | parazyd | it's a lot lighter on the resources than upstart (gentoo says) |
| 18:33.38 | freemangordon | parazyd: I suspect upstart in maemo is not the same as upstart in debian, thus much lighter ;) |
| 18:33.55 | Pali | yes, upstart in maemo is not same as upstart in debian/ubuntu... |
| 18:33.58 | parazyd | could be, i never looked at the package source |
| 18:34.28 | parazyd | yeah and i guess for the sake of keeping initscripts it's good |
| 18:34.29 | Pali | anyway, maemo uses dsme for monitoring lot of applications |
| 18:34.51 | freemangordon | actually all the deamons asaik |
| 18:34.55 | freemangordon | *afaik |
| 18:35.01 | Pali | and some are monitored by upstart itself |
| 18:35.18 | freemangordon | Pali: which one besides dsme itself? |
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| 18:35.31 | aitor | freemangordon: http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon/Qt_Hildon_Widgets |
| 18:35.35 | Pali | upstart control dsme |
| 18:36.21 | Pali | so for maemo applications/system we can use any init daemon... monitoring is done by dsme and not by pid 1 init daemon |
| 18:36.40 | parazyd | interesting |
| 18:36.42 | freemangordon | aitor: oh, this is qt hildon widgets, but hildon itself (and "native" applications) are GTK |
| 18:36.49 | parazyd | so you could even go with sinit :D |
| 18:37.01 | freemangordon | what about systemd? :p |
| 18:37.04 | freemangordon | hides |
| 18:37.08 | parazyd | yeah, no... |
| 18:37.15 | Pali | parazyd: any init system which can start /etc/init.d/ scripts |
| 18:37.44 | freemangordon | Pali: wait, who uses /etc/event.d? isn't it upstart? |
| 18:37.52 | Pali | upstart |
| 18:38.18 | freemangordon | but isn't that maemo specific? |
| 18:38.21 | Pali | but if you look at /etc/event.d/ script those are just shell scripts... with some logging information |
| 18:38.38 | Pali | what? |
| 18:39.21 | freemangordon | no /etc/event.d on my ubuntu machine |
| 18:39.54 | aitor | ok: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/pre-alpha2/apis/libhildon-2.1.34/hildon-hildon-gtk.html |
| 18:41.02 | freemangordon | aitor: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/hildon/ |
| 18:41.04 | aitor | parazyd, freemangordon, Pali and company: need to go :) |
| 18:41.12 | Pali | aitor: hildon is library based on gtk2 |
| 18:41.28 | Pali | and needs modified gtk2 |
| 18:41.43 | Pali | this is important! original gtk2 cannot be used |
| 18:41.47 | freemangordon | Pali: I really hope android808 to be able to port it to gtk3 |
| 18:41.49 | aitor | ok, i saved the link |
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| 18:42.09 | Pali | freemangordon: hildon to port for gtk3? |
| 18:42.38 | Pali | I'm not sure if this is possible... as hildon itself needs patched gtk... |
| 18:42.42 | freemangordon | Pali: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=96800 |
| 18:42.43 | aitor | see you tomorrow, need to go |
| 18:42.50 | freemangordon | aitor: night |
| 18:42.54 | newic | hello |
| 18:43.02 | aitor | :) |
| 18:43.06 | Pali | anyway, there is already some gtk3 port for hildon |
| 18:43.12 | Pali | done by cordia |
| 18:43.14 | freemangordon | Pali: we can reuse part of cordia |
| 18:43.25 | Pali | yes |
| 18:43.30 | freemangordon | no, as they removed mce etc |
| 18:43.40 | freemangordon | but some stuff can be reused |
| 18:43.55 | Pali | yes, reuse parts |
| 18:46.42 | freemangordon | parazyd: is thre any progress on "custom packages build" in the sdk? |
| 18:48.04 | parazyd | freemangordon: i have some templates which allows you to build them with a makefile |
| 18:48.14 | parazyd | but it's not yet ready to push |
| 18:48.18 | freemangordon | ok |
| 18:48.30 | parazyd | perhaps in a week or three |
| 18:48.45 | freemangordon | no hurry |
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| 18:53.55 | newic | is there somebody who called Anna here ? |
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| 19:00.35 | aitor | try in #debianfork |
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| 19:02.36 | aitor | really, need to go... see you tomorrow :) |
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