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| 00:23.02 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 01:42.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL http://paste.opensuse.org/64262304 I feel like going silly |
| 01:44.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | thinks bash - or generic linux kbd driver - could use a input method like known from windows: holt alt and type 3digit keycode on numeric keypad, then release alt |
| 01:44.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | hold* |
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| 01:47.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and alt-x,alt-n should switch to 'embedded keypad' like on some laptops. which is sth like IOPJKLNM;: = 7894561230 |
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| 02:03.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_code#Linux :-/ |
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| 02:15.25 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: there's something called a "compose key" (linked in the footer of that wikipedia article) that you can use |
| 02:16.13 | pydsigner | °⺠|
| 02:16.20 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: it's not useful for the full range of unicode-by-number entries, but it has mnemonically composed hotkey sequences for common stuff people use (i guess it was mostly focused on extended latin characters for urls and stuff) |
| 02:16.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface: find me the compose key on a 39 key kbd! :-) |
| 02:17.11 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: you don't have to. you can bind it to whatever you want /usr/bin/xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = Multi_key' |
| 02:17.13 | pydsigner | DocScrutinizer05: Just put it on one of the layers |
| 02:17.21 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: (i think emacs has something equivalent built-in though) |
| 02:17.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | xmodmap does affect X11 only, right? |
| 02:17.43 | gnarface | yes |
| 02:17.45 | gnarface | afaik |
| 02:17.48 | gnarface | no idea what you'd do at the shell |
| 02:17.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | pointless then |
| 02:18.26 | gnarface | not so pointless |
| 02:18.37 | gnarface | ´ |
| 02:18.44 | gnarface | ⺠|
| 02:18.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the last resort purpose it's totally pointless |
| 02:18.54 | gnarface | ok maybe fairly pointeles |
| 02:19.09 | gnarface | but it'd be fine just working in xorg for me, if i could also enter raw unicode sequences |
| 02:19.25 | gnarface | as far as i'm concerned, it's just missing that ONE feature |
| 02:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | what do you do on comsole when your kbd is broken or pathetic 39 key? |
| 02:19.55 | gnarface | you re-bind to a different key |
| 02:20.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | how do you do that? |
| 02:20.11 | gnarface | well first of all: /usr/bin/xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = Multi_key' |
| 02:20.20 | gnarface | keycode in this context is any keyboard number |
| 02:20.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | no /, no - |
| 02:20.25 | gnarface | i just picked 134 because that's the windows key |
| 02:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | no 134 |
| 02:20.42 | gnarface | so you pick another key |
| 02:20.53 | gnarface | i wasn't using key 134 |
| 02:21.04 | gnarface | it's right-windows button |
| 02:21.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | [a-zA-z,.] |
| 02:21.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and backspace enter and cursor keys |
| 02:21.50 | gnarface | got two shift buttons? |
| 02:22.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | you missed my point: there are no keys to enter digits or - or / |
| 02:22.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | two shift? on a 39 key kbd? lol |
| 02:22.34 | gnarface | i might suggest you need a better keyboard... |
| 02:23.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I might suggest you now completely stray away from the topic at hand |
| 02:23.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | the kbd is a given, I try to cope with it. Of course I could just think "meh!" and buy another device |
| 02:24.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, the system *could* get patched to support numeric keys and special chars on a different layer, there are like 2 modifier keys |
| 02:24.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | with ctrl even a third |
| 02:25.14 | gnarface | well i think maybe xmodmap might be able to bind "compose" to a sequence of keys |
| 02:25.30 | gnarface | which would allow you to work around this problem |
| 02:25.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | xmodmap doesn't work in console, it's a X11 thing |
| 02:25.40 | gnarface | i'm trying to figure out if it can be bound to a mouse button too |
| 02:26.08 | gnarface | not working at the console is obviously another problem entirely |
| 02:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | for system bring-up you want console with <>|-12345... *before* you even think about xterm |
| 02:27.27 | gnarface | hmm. on stackexchange, it's saying recent debian versions actually share keyboard settings between X and console... |
| 02:27.47 | gnarface | maybe that only counts for framebuffer console, but answer 2 here looks legit at first glance: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/44453/how-to-define-a-compose-key-in-terminal-no-desktop-environment |
| 02:28.03 | gnarface | just dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration |
| 02:28.12 | gnarface | settings are in /etc/default/keyboard |
| 02:28.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | loadkeys is one thing, yes |
| 02:28.42 | gnarface | no read the answer, it SPECIFICALLY says compose key assigned this way WORKS at the console |
| 02:28.52 | gnarface | obviously i haven't tested it myself |
| 02:29.30 | gnarface | is this not a debian/devuan system you're talking about? |
| 02:30.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | loadkeys != xmodmap |
| 02:31.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and on a system that has wrong settings, you don't want to try using loadkeys to gain a sane working kbd layout, while using a broken kbd without 0-9 digits, | > etc |
| 02:32.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm talking about a last resort means to input a loadkey commend |
| 02:32.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm totally aware that this is no everyday feature |
| 02:33.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | think of it like sysreq keys |
| 02:34.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | almist never needed, but saves your day the one time in your lifetime that you really need it |
| 02:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/64262304 |
| 02:34.51 | gnarface | but he's not talking about loadkeys |
| 02:35.01 | gnarface | the person who asked the question mentions loadkeys tangentially |
| 02:35.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh, not |
| 02:35.09 | gnarface | then answer number 2 corrects hime |
| 02:35.12 | gnarface | *him |
| 02:35.32 | gnarface | loadkeys is only mentioned because the original poster doesn't know what to do and he's grasping at straws |
| 02:35.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://susepaste.org/77635623 |
| 02:36.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I don't understand answer two then |
| 02:36.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | what is it he suggests? |
| 02:37.50 | gnarface | dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration OR dpkg-reconfigure console-setup, but mentions settings are stored in the /etc/default/keyboard file, which looks human-editable |
| 02:38.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | err what? |
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| 02:38.54 | gnarface | basically he's saying that the terminal obeys the compose key on debian, even though it doesn't obey *xmodmap* |
| 02:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | that'S first answer, no? |
| 02:39.40 | gnarface | actually my bad, it's the first answer, of "2" answers, but it's numbered "10" |
| 02:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has 10 thumbs-up |
| 02:40.06 | gnarface | is that what that means? i don't use this site |
| 02:40.36 | gnarface | "You could also put XKBOPTIONS=compose:ralt in /etc/default/keyboard and run |
| 02:40.36 | gnarface | sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup |
| 02:40.37 | gnarface | " |
| 02:40.43 | gnarface | that literal answer^ looks legit to me |
| 02:40.59 | gnarface | "sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration |
| 02:40.59 | gnarface | and select Compose key: Right Alt (AltGr) on the appropriate screen." |
| 02:41.03 | gnarface | ^ this one will probably work too |
| 02:41.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration is no option since a there's for sure no package for that and b there's not even a minus on the kbd |
| 02:41.47 | gnarface | you have a control key and a tab key though, right? |
| 02:41.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no tab key |
| 02:42.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | please read: THIRTY-NINE key keyboard |
| 02:42.37 | gnarface | yea yea, i get it, i've never seen one |
| 02:42.46 | gnarface | but you have a control key |
| 02:42.53 | gnarface | so this is a pain in the ass but possible still |
| 02:43.17 | gnarface | i'm just trying to remember the sequence for entering raw tabs |
| 02:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allaboutsymbian.com%2Fimages%2Fnews%2Fdevices%2FN900%2Fn900-keyboard.jpg&sp=49b925b8c7dd777e1c6566d99abeb7e6 |
| 02:43.42 | gnarface | a raw "enter" is ctrl-v, ctrl-j |
| 02:43.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | tab is ctrl+h |
| 02:43.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 02:44.05 | pydsigner | There's a method to that madness |
| 02:44.15 | gnarface | hmmm, no ctrl-h is backspace for me |
| 02:44.17 | pydsigner | You're entering an ascii code |
| 02:44.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh you're right |
| 02:44.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | tab is prolly ctrl-i or sth |
| 02:45.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | pydsigner: that's what I'm talking about |
| 02:45.24 | gnarface | i know ctrl-b and ctrl-f are your left and right arrows. ctrl-k and ctrl-y are cut and paste. so using that, if you can find the one for [tab] you can tab-complete a file name with a "-" in it then cut and paste it wherever you need. it would honestly be easier to just use emacs |
| 02:45.49 | gnarface | but this can be done |
| 02:46.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless of course you're in console where there's no such thing like cut&paste |
| 02:46.34 | gnarface | but there is |
| 02:46.46 | pydsigner | DocScrutinizer05: it's Ctrl |
| 02:46.47 | gnarface | there is absolutely a kill ring in bash |
| 02:46.54 | pydsigner | * Ctrl+I |
| 02:47.10 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: cut&paste in bash works just like emacs, by default these days. |
| 02:47.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha, to cut something I need to highlight it first |
| 02:47.45 | pydsigner | Alternatively, you could order a keyboard with a minus sign |
| 02:47.51 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: yes, it cuts everything under the cursor up to the end of the line |
| 02:48.03 | gnarface | pydsigner: don't go there, it triggers him |
| 02:48.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | pydsigner: please!!! https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.allaboutsymbian.com%2Fimages%2Fnews%2Fdevices%2FN900%2Fn900-keyboard.jpg&sp=49b925b8c7dd777e1c6566d99abeb7e6 |
| 02:48.54 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: i'm not saying it's right, i'm not saying it's good, and i'm not saying i don't sympathize fully with your plight. i'm just rejecting the assertion it's "impossible" since all empirical evidence i have here is to the contrary. |
| 02:49.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | default debian keymap for that device is obviously totally broken/useless |
| 02:49.22 | pydsigner | DocScrutinizer05: Ah so the symkeys don't work? |
| 02:49.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 02:50.00 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: but i would *definitely* say a man stuck with a 39-key keyboard should be more familiar with bash cursor manipulation hotkeys. they were *designed* for exactly those types of keyboards. |
| 02:50.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 02:50.18 | gnarface | i remember a few others |
| 02:50.25 | gnarface | ctrl-p and ctrl-n are your up and down arrows |
| 02:50.36 | gnarface | (useful for cycling command history) |
| 02:50.54 | gnarface | ctrl-a and ctrl-e jump to beginning and end of the line automatically |
| 02:50.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, would you please read http://paste.opensuse.org/64262304 |
| 02:51.01 | gnarface | ctrl-u clears (cuts) the whole line |
| 02:51.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | i'm using all these and a few more since 3 decades |
| 02:51.48 | gnarface | do you have an alt key too? alt-f and alt-b jump forward and back by word-boundary characters (useful for jumping to the nearest "-" or " " in a long command-line) |
| 02:51.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 02:52.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, look at the picture I linked |
| 02:52.06 | gnarface | how about meta? |
| 02:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | headdesks |
| 02:52.55 | gnarface | oh, it's a phone |
| 02:53.11 | gnarface | sorry thought we were talking about an old DEC Alpha or something |
| 02:53.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | please understand I have *zich* issues with understanding how to create a working keymapping |
| 02:53.43 | gnarface | but that's a n900... someone must have already made one |
| 02:53.53 | gnarface | you're not the first person to put debian on one of these |
| 02:54.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder how to work yourself out of a situation where you booted to console and are stuck with a keyboard that doesn't evenm have minus or number keys |
| 02:54.17 | gnarface | does that thing have a micro usb port? |
| 02:54.23 | gnarface | or bluetooth? |
| 02:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has, but not the needed drivers |
| 02:54.39 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 02:54.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | God! |
| 02:54.57 | gnarface | well you have arrows though :) |
| 02:55.08 | gnarface | i thought you didn't even have arrow keys |
| 02:55.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | which seem to not work |
| 02:55.19 | gnarface | that's why i was reciting all the bash cursor manipulation stuff |
| 02:55.31 | pydsigner | DocScrutinizer05: do you have Python? |
| 02:55.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I suggested to use ctrl+P to the user trying to install a debian kernel on N900 |
| 02:56.51 | gnarface | ok, DocScrutinizer05 this is useful, ctrl-i will be a tab key for you |
| 02:57.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | not like I didn't know |
| 02:57.35 | gnarface | well but you can use that to get your "-" key |
| 02:57.40 | gnarface | so that's why i assumed you didn't know... |
| 02:58.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | again: I have *zilch* issues with understanding how to create a working keymapping |
| 02:58.25 | pydsigner | So.... what was the actual question then? |
| 02:58.35 | gnarface | oh you just want to be mad about it, that's fine |
| 02:58.42 | gnarface | i was actually trying to provide material help |
| 02:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't see how to get - with tab unless there's something containing a - to expand to |
| 02:59.02 | gnarface | well obviously there's SOMETHING on that system that is |
| 02:59.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm not mad about anything, I just suggested to add a alt-code imput method to linux kernel kbd driver |
| 03:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually a modified alt-code scheme that works with alphabet chars/keys only |
| 03:00.47 | gnarface | btw |
| 03:00.50 | gnarface | your keyboard has a "-" key |
| 03:01.00 | gnarface | now that i'm looking at it |
| 03:01.09 | gnarface | FN-f |
| 03:01.19 | gnarface | underscore appears to be FN-g |
| 03:01.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O did you read the user I'm trying to help out has installed a more or less generic debian kernel? |
| 03:01.58 | gnarface | are you saying that blue arrow key is non-operational? |
| 03:02.08 | gnarface | i thought you said you could get numbers |
| 03:02.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly, and I said it two times already |
| 03:02.26 | gnarface | but how did you get the numbers then? |
| 03:02.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I said the user CANNOT get numbers |
| 03:04.01 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:04.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I confused you, sorry for that. >>[2017-04-10 Mon 03:42:22] <DocScrutinizer05> LOL http://paste.opensuse.org/64262304 I feel like going silly<< was about some ugly hack I provided to a user trying to install debian to N900 and who got stuck on a console which basically only knows [a-zA-Z] |
| 03:06.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | we explained to him how to fix the kbd mapping, but apart from that there's a genuine concern about what to do when you're confronted with a console that doesn't understand the keys you need for the most basic operations. I suggested to teach kernel about alt-code |
| 03:07.14 | gnarface | https://wiki.maemo.org/Remapping_keyboard |
| 03:07.25 | gnarface | for the n900 at least, this was an already solved problem |
| 03:08.25 | gnarface | looks like if you screw the file up though the system won't boot |
| 03:08.28 | gnarface | dicey |
| 03:08.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2017-04-09.log.html#t2017-04-09T23:38:19-2 |
| 03:09.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the N900?? no, for maemo on N900 |
| 03:09.27 | gnarface | but that file in question, /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-51 |
| 03:09.33 | gnarface | it's on my devuan ceres install |
| 03:09.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh freat info |
| 03:09.49 | gnarface | i doubt devuan/debian is different from maemo here |
| 03:10.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, that file is very N900 specific and will look alike no matter in which distro it shows up |
| 03:12.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's actually not the 'question'. If there's any question then that was "how to input X on a kbd that has no X in currently active keymapping?" |
| 03:12.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that led me to [2017-04-10 Mon 03:44:20] * DocScrutinizer05 thinks bash - or generic linux kbd driver - could use a input method like known from windows: holt alt and type 3digit keycode on numeric keypad, then release alt |
| 03:13.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and [2017-04-10 Mon 04:03:01] <DocScrutinizer05> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_code#Linux :-/ |
| 03:13.50 | gnarface | yea, i followed that part and just pointed out that compose was already for this, and DOES work outside of X |
| 03:14.18 | gnarface | and then you pointed out the keyboard thing and i thought it was a challenge about how to enable it with only a ctrl key and alphanumerics |
| 03:14.28 | gnarface | (which i still insist is possible) |
| 03:14.40 | gnarface | i don't like the windows approach |
| 03:14.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | even compose can't input arbitrary chars, it's just a glorified further layer on keymapping basically |
| 03:14.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's not mapped can't get entered |
| 03:15.27 | gnarface | yea, that's why i said it was missing just that one feature... it can't take numeric indexes. but that would be easier (and saner by far) to add to the compose feature than it would be to alter a keyboard driver for it |
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| 03:15.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | you not liking the alt-code approach doesn't mean others shouldn't have it. You can ignore it (or even disable it in driver parameters) if you don't like it |
| 03:15.54 | gnarface | but now that i know we're talking about a obsolete cellphone, i'll grant you that a custom keyboard driver isn't so absurd an approach |
| 03:16.36 | gnarface | i just see that doing it that way is causes unnecessary duplication of efforts. compose is 99% there already. why throw the baby out with the bathwater? |
| 03:16.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and there's nothing 'custom' in adding alt-code feature to the generic linux kbd driver |
| 03:16.59 | gnarface | for a long time i've said they should extend the compose key feature to allow numeric entries |
| 03:17.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | then you're actually arguing FOR a alt-code method, not against :-) |
| 03:18.07 | gnarface | i'm arguing for an equivalent feature. i think the place you want to implement it is the wrong place. |
| 03:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't mind if that's called xompose key or alt key, for N900 for example it needs to be ctrl key anyway |
| 03:18.46 | *** join/#devuan blueness (~blueness@gentoo/developer/blueness) |
| 03:19.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, the place is the only right place. kernel kbd driver. Everything after that is only used by parts of the system, while other parts don't benefit from the function |
| 03:19.41 | gnarface | the problem is in linux, alt+[number] is already used for all kinds of stuff. the mapping couldn't be identical or other userland behavior would break all over. |
| 03:20.17 | gnarface | and we can agree to disagree on whether the keyboard driver is the right place to implement this |
| 03:20.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't mind if that's alt+[number] or <6 times shift in 2 seconds> |
| 03:20.31 | gnarface | i think it belongs in userspace |
| 03:21.20 | DusXMT | Don't we already have CTRL+SHIFT+U? |
| 03:21.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it's pointless the very moment you are on low level system tasks, like console |
| 03:21.33 | DusXMT | It doesn't work everywhere, but it is pretty handy |
| 03:21.55 | gnarface | DusXMT: i think that's urxvt only or something. the caveat here is it has to work outside of X |
| 03:22.15 | DusXMT | gnarface: Try "CTRL+SHIFT+U 20ac" in any GTK-based application :3 |
| 03:22.23 | gnarface | oh anything gtk, really? |
| 03:22.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_code#Linux |
| 03:22.58 | gnarface | DusXMT: no i just get lower-cased "u" |
| 03:23.10 | DusXMT | once you press enter |
| 03:23.26 | gnarface | DusXMT: no the u comes out immediately. sometimes it's underlined |
| 03:23.41 | DusXMT | Yes, you're supposed to type a 16-bit unicode code after that |
| 03:23.44 | gnarface | DusXMT: gtk3 only maybe? |
| 03:23.46 | DusXMT | in hex |
| 03:24.00 | DusXMT | 20ac is an example of such a code |
| 03:24.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw alt-code is also very useful for passwords. It's totally locale-independent |
| 03:24.30 | gnarface | except it's ... by definition not |
| 03:25.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 03:25.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | by which definition? |
| 03:25.48 | gnarface | not microsoft's i guess |
| 03:26.39 | gnarface | ctrl-shift-u isn't working for me anywhere |
| 03:26.47 | gnarface | i get lower-cased u immediately, or i get an underlined u |
| 03:26.50 | DusXMT | gnarface: You said it gave you the underlined u |
| 03:26.54 | gnarface | depending on the program (including firefox) |
| 03:26.56 | DusXMT | that means that it expects a code |
| 03:27.01 | DusXMT | and then enter |
| 03:27.09 | gnarface | OH |
| 03:27.11 | gnarface | interesting.... |
| 03:27.30 | gnarface | oh that's yucky |
| 03:27.32 | gnarface | i don't like that at all |
| 03:27.37 | gnarface | but yea it works in gtk2 |
| 03:27.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | not very smart an article, but anyway: http://www.irongeek.com/alt-numpad-ascii-key-combos-and-chart.html at least covers "by definition" - there are exactly two: IBM and microsoft |
| 03:27.53 | gnarface | but while you're doing it, you have to type out an underlined u8217 or whatever |
| 03:27.59 | gnarface | then hit "enter" once |
| 03:28.04 | gnarface | and trust the thing ignores the enter |
| 03:30.08 | DusXMT | Well, that's the thing about linux, there is no single standard way of doing things, and we wouldn't want it to be that way :) (in fact, that's why we're here) |
| 03:31.06 | Digit | FOR FREEDOM! ;) |
| 03:34.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think at sequence like >shift-down, shift-up, shift-down, shift-up, shift-down, shift-up, shift-down, u-down, u-up< then the 4 digit numeric code typed on either numpad or a virtual numpad formed from e.g. UIOHJKBNM; would work in kernel driver and wouldn't introduce any problems/conflicts |
| 03:35.14 | gnarface | yea that's not something i want keyboard drivers wasting overhead on though |
| 03:35.46 | gnarface | otherwise why not embed the whole shell into the keyboard driver? |
| 03:35.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh my, that terrible overhead. Will bloat the code and slow down keyboard input... wait.. err... |
| 03:36.31 | *** join/#devuan gmcastil (ae10eb37@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.16.235.55) |
| 03:36.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | see sysreq keys |
| 03:36.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are kernel driver, no? |
| 03:37.52 | gmcastil | what is the accepted method for installing Google Chrome on Devuan Jessie 1 Beta2? |
| 03:38.08 | gnarface | sysreq keys are an optional feature you can disable |
| 03:38.22 | gmcastil | the sources docs make it clear not to mingle debian and devuan repos - is there an accepted way to do this? |
| 03:38.23 | gnarface | it's often disabled for security in fact |
| 03:38.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | so? what makes you think the alt-code couldn't be disabled too? |
| 03:39.39 | gnarface | and i'm not sure the magic sysreq key is even in the keyboard drivers, i'd have to double check |
| 03:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | for tty you could do same with <guardtime> U backspace U backspace U backspace U backspace NNNN tab |
| 03:41.22 | gnarface | gmcastil: chromium is in the repos, but you gotta break the rules if you want to install google's |
| 03:42.22 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: you aren't really into video games on linux, are you? |
| 03:42.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | you aren't using shell to play video games, are you? |
| 03:43.11 | gmcastil | gnarface: so its either chromium the 'guarnteed' compatible way or i take my chances with the .deb file fromgoogle? |
| 03:43.12 | gnarface | no, but i AM using keyboard drivers :) a gamer wouldn't sneer at input latency concerns. |
| 03:43.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | note every terminal has a raw mode too |
| 03:43.27 | gnarface | gmcastil: sorry to say, yep.. :( |
| 03:43.27 | gmcastil | (or I suppose I could build from source) |
| 03:43.37 | gmcastil | gnarface: np, just wanted to know what my options were - thanks |
| 03:44.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and a sequence like <guardtime> U backspace U backspace U backspace U backspace NNNN tab is very unlikely to ever occur accidentally, and you're still free to keep it disabled on your gamer PC |
| 03:46.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | tty already does a friggin lot of such magic |
| 03:49.36 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: i think some sort of literal escape sequence that moves the load to command-parsing time in bash would be better |
| 03:49.53 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: that way you're not just adding more input latency to the keyboard driver |
| 03:50.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | c'mon, inpit latency |
| 03:50.22 | gnarface | yea man, input latency. gamers are for real. |
| 03:50.41 | gnarface | and we actually care about performance. shocking, i know. |
| 03:50.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, do you use a tty for gaming? |
| 03:50.57 | Digit | sometimes. |
| 03:51.17 | gnarface | no but again, do use a KEYBOARD for gaming |
| 03:51.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | then shut the option down. You have to do that for a truckload of ither stty stuff already |
| 03:51.32 | Digit | not often enough though. would be nice to pipe graphical games to some kind of ncurses fancy. ^_^ |
| 03:52.10 | gnarface | bash already expands stuff like $ENVIRONMENT variables and "~/" = /home/[user] so it would be perfectly inline with that to add some unicode literal prefix sequence |
| 03:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | I still fail to see any latency from parsing a 10 char string in input on anything faster than a 10MHz 9090 CPU |
| 03:52.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | 8080 even |
| 03:53.22 | gnarface | i'm sure you couldn't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps too. but these are the types of things that you become more aware of with time. |
| 03:53.39 | gnarface | it's about what you're paying attention to |
| 03:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm aware a human being can't tell 5 milliceconds from 6 milliseconds |
| 03:54.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and any "latency" from parsing a 10char string is magnitudes less than 1ms |
| 03:55.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I of course can tell difference between 30 and 60 fps, honestly now |
| 03:55.56 | *** join/#devuan gmcastil (ae10eb37@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.16.235.55) |
| 03:58.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the additional latency is in the magnitude of 5 to 10 CPU instructions per char |
| 03:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you want to go leete with optimizing: 2 instructions |
| 03:59.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | one increment and one compare and branch if not zero |
| 04:00.14 | *** join/#devuan k1llz0mb13s (~zombieali@unaffiliated/zombiealive) |
| 04:02.25 | gnarface | 1 millisecond input X 100 key inputs == 100 milliseconds slower than the competition. 100 milliseconds is a HUGE amount of time when you're talking about reaction times. |
| 04:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit |
| 04:03.01 | gnarface | like i said, it's more about what you're paying attention to. you'd notice if you were doing something that required these types of reaction times to win that you cared about. |
| 04:03.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | 9 months pregnancy / 100 women = 0.08 months |
| 04:04.03 | gnarface | but that's a parallel action. keyboard buttons are largely used in sequence, not parallel (some exceptions) |
| 04:04.12 | gnarface | busted analogy |
| 04:05.18 | gnarface | in fact lots of gaming largely boils down to a long series of discrete, fast, and precisely timed button presses |
| 04:05.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you are gaming via internet with a ping time of 5ms and you send 1GB of data during a month, after that month your reaction is 500000s delayed against your competitor, right? |
| 04:05.50 | gnarface | also a busted analogy |
| 04:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, an exact analogy |
| 04:06.18 | gnarface | are you drunk? |
| 04:06.21 | gnarface | it's obviously not |
| 04:06.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | are you? |
| 04:06.47 | gnarface | not yet, but i'm thinking i should have been for this conversation. besides which, i'd be gaming on a connection of much less than 1ms latency |
| 04:07.13 | gnarface | 0.015 - 0.018 milliseconds over a lan, usually |
| 04:07.21 | gnarface | if you're doing anything remotely competitive of course |
| 04:07.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you introduce a 1us delay to a keypress, your next keapress ist't delayed any longer than its own delay, IOW again 1uS, and after 1 zillion keypresses the delay is still 1us per keypress and so your rwaction time not delayed at all for any human noticeable amount |
| 04:07.56 | gnarface | if you're playing WoW on a server on another continent, obviously your ping will suck and you will not be able to compete effectively. obviously in THAT case, a couple extra milliseconds will go unnoticed, but that's not a sum total example of all gaming |
| 04:08.42 | gnarface | see, this is how i KNOW you're not a gamer, because you've forgotten to consider that the game has to have time to react to the first keypress before the second one is valid. |
| 04:09.03 | gmcastil | is there a way to change window managers at a user level (instead of using update-alternatives --config x-window-manager) |
| 04:09.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHA |
| 04:09.11 | gnarface | just because you can press the buttons faster doesn't mean that millisecond didn't impact the game's input speed |
| 04:09.51 | gnarface | and just because you didn't notice, doesn't mean it didn't still contribute to your loss |
| 04:10.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I know for sure you're not a developer, otherwise you'd know that any game's internal timing is rules by the clock syncing the game engine, there's no delay buulding up from accumulated keypress delays, unless maybe you talk about chess |
| 04:11.32 | gnarface | no, of course there's not always a delay. i am a developer, the games aren't all coded the same. sometimes they'll just IGNORE keypresses instead |
| 04:11.50 | gnarface | which is sometimes better, sometimes worse |
| 04:12.10 | gnarface | depends on what the game is doing with your input |
| 04:12.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | because the keypress been a 1000000 * 1 microsecond too late?? ;-P |
| 04:12.31 | gnarface | not microsecond |
| 04:12.39 | gnarface | now that's hyperbole |
| 04:13.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, that's exactly what we're talking about here, probably even way less |
| 04:13.40 | gnarface | look here's what i'm hearing from you "i don't give a shit about latency, i'm not a gamer, and anyone who disagrees with me is a bad person and stupid" |
| 04:13.55 | DusXMT | gnarface: They showed numbers |
| 04:14.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're honestly trying to tell me that adding a 2 CPU isntructions to processing of an input "byte" in keyboard driver will cause games drop keypresses? c'mon don't kid me |
| 04:14.53 | gnarface | gmcastil: if you're not using a graphical login manager that has the feature to change it, you can try just installing another and calling it from ~/.xinitrc when you run startx |
| 04:14.59 | DusXMT | The one thing I'm not sure about is if it's enabled by default, it might seem odd to some people that after two clicks of shift, 4 keys will be ignored |
| 04:15.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't let go on your input delay optimization for gaming, that's all *I* see |
| 04:15.17 | DusXMT | (or however many will be dedicated to the code) |
| 04:15.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | DusXMT: I didn't ask for it being enabled by default |
| 04:15.55 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: i'm not only saying it's not worth the risk, i'm saying there's corner cases you haven't even considered, and i'm saying its unacceptable at any cost of latency whatsoever. the keyboard driver is THE WRONG PLACE FOR THIS |
| 04:16.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I come to the conclusion that it's not worth discussing this with you on that level |
| 04:17.33 | gnarface | a long time ago i suggested we agree to disagree |
| 04:17.44 | gnarface | you're the one who wanted to keep pouring fuel on it because you can't handle being told you're wrong |
| 04:17.55 | gnarface | it's childish, and insulting franly |
| 04:17.59 | gnarface | *frankly |
| 04:18.25 | gnarface | additionally i found your use of the word "bullshit" to be an unnecessary and derogatory trivialization of my argument |
| 04:18.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, exactly, since it's you who's evidently wrong. Stop kidding me with VS like "adding 2 CPU instructions to processing of a keypress has inevaluable risk and impact to gamers" |
| 04:19.12 | gnarface | your suggestions were NOT "2-CPU instruction" suggestions. now who's bullshitting? |
| 04:19.23 | gmcastil | gnarface: i'm using slim (i didnt install kde or gnome when i installed devuan) - i saw that slim is not really maintained anymore |
| 04:19.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha, quoze please! |
| 04:19.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | or you're wrong AGAIN |
| 04:19.34 | gmcastil | gnarface: is there a more well suited DM? |
| 04:19.40 | DusXMT | 05:58 < DocScrutinizer05> actually the additional latency is in the magnitude of 5 to 10 CPU instructions per char |
| 04:19.44 | DusXMT | 05:59 < DocScrutinizer05> when you want to go leete with optimizing: 2 instructions |
| 04:19.47 | DusXMT | 05:59 < DocScrutinizer05> one increment and one compare and branch if not zero |
| 04:20.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks, proves my point |
| 04:20.23 | gnarface | oh two instructions PER CHARACTER |
| 04:20.28 | gnarface | that's a big difference |
| 04:20.40 | gnarface | now how about if you don't assume intel chips, then what? |
| 04:21.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | how about you assume suse Z3 or somesuch? then we're STILL in the range of 1ms |
| 04:21.24 | gnarface | gmcastil: er, probably but i can't make a good suggestion. i built Moksha from bodhi right before it hit the wall... |
| 04:21.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | Zuse Z3 |
| 04:22.18 | gnarface | this is again 1ms PER CHARACTER right? |
| 04:22.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | with a 1MHz Z80 we are in the range of 16microseconds |
| 04:22.52 | gnarface | some of this stuff was actually faster on those old chips, but no i'm not talking about 8bit hardware from 30 years ago. |
| 04:22.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and now i'm sure you're either drunk or trolling, or both |
| 04:23.02 | gnarface | i'm neither drunk, nor trolling |
| 04:23.36 | gnarface | i'm absolutely serious about this, your idea to move this into the keyboard driver is just wrong-minded |
| 04:23.46 | gnarface | it belongs in the shell if anywhere |
| 04:24.37 | DusXMT | Or in the UI library, and we already have an implementation of that :) Of course, apparently a "yucky" one |
| 04:25.13 | DusXMT | (good enough if you need the odd special character every now and then on an en_US qwerty keyboard |
| 04:25.16 | DusXMT | ) |
| 04:25.24 | gnarface | yes, i'm also opposed fundamentally to the whole push to "let's do everything the way microsoft does it!" |
| 04:25.48 | DusXMT | Yet... you want to do alt-codes the microsoft way? :) |
| 04:25.57 | gnarface | no, HE did, not me |
| 04:26.01 | gnarface | that was his argument |
| 04:26.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | "belongs to" is something we can't decide who's wrong and who's right, as long as your claim isn't backed by any facts |
| 04:26.14 | DusXMT | was talking about the input method, not the implementation |
| 04:27.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | but stop quoting me incorrectly |
| 04:28.25 | gnarface | i mean, your claim isn't backed by facts either. this ultimately boils down to "no more latency" vs "suck it up, kid" |
| 04:28.33 | gnarface | it's "daddy talk" nothing more. |
| 04:28.37 | gnarface | get off your high horse |
| 04:29.05 | gnarface | we *could* have just stopped earlier when i said we can agree to disagree. maybe that's still the best choice. |
| 04:29.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | please stop quoting me incorrectly!!! I never was offensive like "suck it up, kid" and you're not looking good resorting to this style of argumentation |
| 04:29.54 | gnarface | now you're telling ME, that you weren't offensive to me? |
| 04:30.08 | gnarface | i think we BOTH took an unprofessional tone here at several points. |
| 04:31.05 | golinux | Is this really appropriate for this channel? Maybe a PM? |
| 04:31.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: thannks! |
| 04:31.20 | gnarface | you're absolutely right golinux |
| 04:48.14 | *** join/#devuan DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 04:54.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key >>understood by the Linux kernel<< >>...this feature serves as a tool of last resort<< [2017-04-10 Mon 04:32:23] <DocScrutinizer05> I'm talking about a last resort means to input a loadkey commend |
| 04:54.49 | gnarface | you see how he can't drop it? |
| 04:54.59 | gnarface | and i'm the bad guy here? |
| 04:55.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you see how YOU can't stiop trying to quiet me? It NOT been addressed to you! |
| 04:55.43 | gnarface | i mean, it's obviously a continuation of the same conversation thread |
| 04:55.48 | gnarface | i'm obviously still here |
| 04:56.03 | gnarface | and it's obviously still not about devuan support >:( |
| 04:56.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? it been you who jumped in on a topic *I* started |
| 04:56.22 | gnarface | i made a mistake. i was trying to help you. |
| 04:56.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it IS about devuan, though not *support* |
| 04:58.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | insolicited. I had no no problem and thus didn't ask fior help, to start with |
| 04:59.24 | gnarface | you were complaining about an issue in a way that exhibited a fundamental lack of knowledge about existing bash features and the legacy of keyboards without extended keys |
| 04:59.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 05:00.06 | gnarface | i merely tried to point out some helpful trivia that might lead you to a fix |
| 05:00.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | unsolicited |
| 05:00.27 | gnarface | you responded by insulting me repeatedly |
| 05:00.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 05:01.21 | gnarface | you are in a support channel. forgive me for mistaking the statements as a request for support. |
| 05:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | says who? |
| 05:01.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | /topic --> " https://devuan.org/ discussion channel " |
| 05:02.09 | gnarface | but it's also the only support channel for devuan |
| 05:02.15 | gnarface | and people frequently come here for support |
| 05:02.24 | gnarface | people who, i'll add, generally are appreciative when i give it |
| 05:02.38 | gnarface | i'm sure you can see how easy it would be for me to mistake you for one of them |
| 05:02.47 | gnarface | i assure you i won't make that mistake again |
| 05:11.26 | gnarface | apt-cache search ^keyboard-co |
| 05:11.26 | gnarface | keyboard-configuration - system-wide keyboard preferences |
| 05:11.32 | gnarface | pretty sure looks like this package exists, btw. |
| 05:12.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope the package feels lucky |
| 05:12.26 | gnarface | why, you gonna remove it from the repos just to prove a point? |
| 05:12.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? you _must_ be drunk |
| 05:13.00 | gnarface | please, tell me why you hope that package "feels lucky" |
| 05:13.20 | *** join/#devuan towo^work (~towo@unaffiliated/towo/x-4064351) |
| 05:13.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | snce I don't see another reason for stating here that it exists |
| 05:13.56 | gnarface | earlier, one of the suggestions i gave you |
| 05:14.02 | gnarface | in a (mistaken) attempt to help |
| 05:14.12 | gnarface | it involved the assumption that package exists |
| 05:14.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? I told you three times already, directly, that I don't want or need any advice from you. And your advice is not helpful btw |
| 05:15.03 | gnarface | your response was: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration is no option since a there's for sure no package for that... |
| 05:15.07 | gnarface | which is factually inaccurate |
| 05:15.10 | gnarface | i just checked |
| 05:15.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't care if that package exists, so I hope it feels lucky and lives on forver happily |
| 05:15.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | there is no such package *on that system* I was talking about |
| 05:16.03 | gnarface | so some of your fundamental assumptions were also obviously false, that's all. now that I pointed that out for you, you can easily see why i might have thought you had overlooked an easy solution that already existed. |
| 05:16.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm completely desinterested to continue that discussion |
| 05:16.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | with you |
| 05:17.00 | gnarface | good. |
| 06:31.03 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@dynamic-adsl-78-12-39-197.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 06:36.03 | *** join/#devuan gmcastil (ae10eb37@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.16.235.55) |
| 06:36.43 | gmcastil | ok, i give up....I have googled and read for an hour trying to figure out how to get an xrandr script to run at startup - how the hell do I keep a dual screen setup permanent? |
| 06:38.20 | gmcastil | why does xrandr behave differently in ubuntu, debian, devuan, etc.? |
| 06:43.07 | gmcastil | also, why does a fresh install of Devuan not find my .bashrc? |
| 06:43.20 | gmcastil | . .bashrc somehow can't find the file.... |
| 06:43.29 | gmcastil | that makes no sense to me at all |
| 06:47.03 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: ? |
| 06:47.24 | KatolaZ | what do you mean by "can't find the file"? |
| 06:47.46 | gmcastil | after I log in and open a shell, it doesnt run my .bashrc |
| 06:48.02 | gmcastil | and, in my home directory, when i run . .bashrc it says it cant find the file |
| 06:48.16 | KatolaZ | do you have a ~/.bashrc file? |
| 06:48.21 | gmcastil | yep |
| 06:48.42 | gmcastil | https://bpaste.net/show/2bb0c992477c |
| 06:48.50 | gmcastil | i have never encoutnered this before |
| 06:49.26 | gmcastil | i have no idea how that can happen |
| 06:49.46 | KatolaZ | first of all, you do not seem to be running bash |
| 06:49.48 | KatolaZ | but sh |
| 06:49.52 | KatolaZ | which should be dash |
| 06:50.04 | KatolaZ | (I might be wrong on this...) |
| 06:50.09 | gmcastil | sh --version says i'm runnign bash |
| 06:50.20 | gmcastil | the 'update-alternatives' thing has me so confused |
| 06:51.25 | gmcastil | https://bpaste.net/show/22e04bad2bc4 |
| 06:55.50 | gmcastil | so i'm at a loss....and when it comes to xrandr, none of the examples and recommendations seem to do anything |
| 06:56.47 | gmcastil | the 5 year old CentOS I have to use at work supports 3 monitors and xmonad out of the box.....Devuan cant seem to get bash login to work properly |
| 06:57.48 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: .bashrc is for non-login shells though |
| 06:57.56 | gmcastil | i should still be able to source it |
| 06:58.13 | gmcastil | . .bashrc in a directory containing it should not error out not being able to find the file |
| 06:58.25 | KatolaZ | and if you login through a graphical login manager, .bashrc is not the place where you should have initial confs |
| 06:58.55 | gmcastil | so i should source it from something like .bash_profile then? |
| 06:59.02 | KatolaZ | nope |
| 06:59.14 | AntoFox | o/ |
| 06:59.24 | gmcastil | ... |
| 06:59.26 | gnarface | gmcastil: you should be able to make a custom xorg.conf to make your dual-screen layout permanent. with a couple notable exceptions (ok, just one, Nvidia's binary drivers) xorg.conf syntax can support anything statically that xrandr can do dynamically |
| 06:59.26 | AntoFox | stupid question |
| 06:59.33 | KatolaZ | you should put the xrandr stuff where your login manager would find them |
| 06:59.48 | gmcastil | see....i get different answers to the same question |
| 06:59.55 | KatolaZ | ok gmcastil |
| 07:00.03 | KatolaZ | got it |
| 07:00.04 | KatolaZ | o/ |
| 07:00.19 | AntoFox | openoffice it can be placed in "contrib" or "non-free"??? |
| 07:00.23 | gnarface | gmcastil: you will find i tend to prefer the "old ways" but there are often more than one ways to do it |
| 07:00.24 | gmcastil | gnarface: so i should edit xorg.conf instead of the using xrandr then? |
| 07:00.31 | AntoFox | KatolaZ: o/ |
| 07:01.07 | gmcastil | i dont understand why there isnt a clear answer to how to run a setup script for displays at startup.....literally every linux machine on earth needs to do this |
| 07:01.21 | gmcastil | i've tried three different ways, none of which work |
| 07:01.29 | gnarface | gmcastil: did you try ~/.xinitrc? |
| 07:01.44 | gmcastil | nothing i put in .xinitrc gets run when i log in |
| 07:01.56 | gnarface | gmcastil: .xinitrc has to be executable |
| 07:02.01 | gmcastil | its as if login completely ignores everything in my home directory |
| 07:02.25 | gnarface | gmcastil: also .xinitrc runs when X starts. do you start X with "startx" or a login manager? |
| 07:02.26 | gmcastil | xfce4 recognized both monitors just fine |
| 07:02.32 | gmcastil | i'm using lightdm |
| 07:02.42 | gmcastil | when i use xfce4 it recognizes both |
| 07:02.46 | gmcastil | i switche to xmonad and now nothing works |
| 07:03.01 | gnarface | some window managers have built-in xrandr controls for saving/editing desktop layout, some don't. |
| 07:03.14 | gnarface | (and they tend to not play nicely together) |
| 07:03.25 | gmcastil | so where would i put directions that i want to be followed when i log in? |
| 07:03.48 | gmcastil | i've tried /etc/X11/Xsession.d, /etc/lighdm/lightdm.conf, $HOME/.screenlayout, $HOME/.xinitrc |
| 07:04.24 | gmcastil | out of the box centos from 5 years ago gets it right....i dont understand why a fresh install of devuan cant get this right |
| 07:04.30 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: it's just a mess |
| 07:04.38 | gmcastil | feels that way |
| 07:04.47 | KatolaZ | and depends on the combination of |
| 07:04.52 | KatolaZ | login manager |
| 07:04.58 | KatolaZ | session manager |
| 07:05.04 | KatolaZ | window manager |
| 07:05.14 | KatolaZ | desktop manager (if any) |
| 07:05.37 | gnarface | gmcastil: i tend to use xdm for login manager, i don't know where it OR lightdm store their configs, sorry. if you check the lightdm docs, it should have some place to put a post-login hook. but then, so i would expect do most window managers |
| 07:06.03 | gnarface | gmcastil: (i use xdm in the few places i need a login manager, but mostly i just run startx manually and put my stuff in ~/.xinitrc) |
| 07:06.33 | gnarface | gmcastil: see, the thing is ~/.xinitrc is run when *X* starts, which is BEFORE you log in, if you're using a GUI login manager. sorry if that was already clear to you, i just want to be sure. |
| 07:07.43 | gmcastil | yeah, its pretty confusing |
| 07:08.03 | gmcastil | i'd like to go back to just starting x manually instead of a login manager |
| 07:08.24 | gmcastil | the login manager unnecessarily complicates matters |
| 07:08.36 | gnarface | that usually ends up being my conclusion as well |
| 07:09.12 | gmcastil | how can i decouple myself from the login manager? |
| 07:09.31 | gnarface | i would just uninstall it |
| 07:09.39 | gmcastil | just rip out slim and lightdm? |
| 07:09.50 | gnarface | can't you just rip out lightdm while leaving slim in place? |
| 07:09.56 | gmcastil | yeah, i can do both |
| 07:10.02 | gmcastil | but slim wouldnt let me pick my window manager |
| 07:10.11 | gnarface | wait, slim IS the window manager, right? |
| 07:10.22 | gmcastil | no, its one of the lightweight GDM |
| 07:10.47 | gnarface | oh, they're both login managers |
| 07:10.51 | gmcastil | ya |
| 07:11.06 | gmcastil | so assuming the package manager does its thing right and i remove both of those, i should be able to restart into a non-X environment and just run startx myself then |
| 07:11.07 | gnarface | sorry for the tangent, but did you try ~/.xsession or ~/.xsessionrc? |
| 07:11.14 | gmcastil | yeah, i tried those too |
| 07:11.30 | gmcastil | i've googled the crap out of hte question and all i've found are "Try this or this" |
| 07:11.41 | gnarface | ok ok |
| 07:11.42 | gmcastil | i dont understand why "trying" should be a part of the solution |
| 07:12.02 | gnarface | it's because there's too many combinations of stuff you might have installed |
| 07:12.04 | gmcastil | i had devuan on here and reinstalled last night - previous install didnt have a GDM, so i had to run startx with those |
| 07:12.20 | gnarface | yea, just so much diversity in available configs |
| 07:12.28 | gnarface | it's hard to remember every available option |
| 07:12.35 | gmcastil | i guess that makes sense, if different window managers do ddifferent things in different orders and dont respect interfaces |
| 07:12.48 | gmcastil | one sec, i'm going to restart x and see what happens - thanks for the help |
| 07:12.56 | gnarface | wait |
| 07:13.10 | gnarface | are you gonna restart X *after* removing slim and lightdm first? |
| 07:13.23 | gnarface | make sure you have the 'xinit' package installed |
| 07:13.44 | gnarface | (it contains startx, which you might not have if you installed with the GUI on-by-default) |
| 07:13.55 | gnarface | (actually if you're missing that it might explain why ~/.xinitrc didn't work too) |
| 07:14.56 | gnarface | it's also worth noting that WITH a GUI login manager running, "restarting X" requires more than just a log-out and log-in |
| 07:15.20 | gnarface | (for lightdm you would run something like: "/etc/init.d/lightdm restart" or "service lightdm restart") |
| 07:17.24 | gnarface | :( |
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| 07:18.41 | gmcastil | so removing the login managers got me back to using 'startx' and gives both monitors working properly |
| 07:19.02 | gmcastil | my original problem was not being able to figure out how to change default window managers at the user level |
| 07:23.38 | gmcastil | gnarface: how do you tell it your window manager of choice? |
| 07:31.02 | gnarface | gmcastil: by making my ~/.xinitrc contain this: http://paste.debian.net/926808/ |
| 07:31.52 | gnarface | gmcastil: (obviously, swap out "/usr/bin/enlightenment_start" for your own WM of choice. but now you should also be able to have multiple WMs installed and just switch between them by changing this file and restarting X) |
| 07:32.41 | gnarface | gmcastil: if you want other programs already running in the WM when it starts up, put them before the WM execution line, and append "&" |
| 07:32.59 | gnarface | gmcastil: (you can put xrandr commands in there for example) |
| 07:34.07 | gnarface | gmcastil: also, i was wrong earlier when i said ~/.xinitrc has to be executable. apparently it just needs a shell shebang on the first line |
| 07:34.58 | gmcastil | yeah, invoking X directly with explicit directions on what the hell to do makes a lot more sense to me |
| 07:35.06 | gmcastil | GDM are stupid to me |
| 07:35.38 | gnarface | well the thing about a GDM is they all require X themselves, so X is *already started* by the time you see the login prompt. i agree, that adds a logistical problem for me too. |
| 07:36.18 | gnarface | but i see why casual users might object at a visceral level to the 80's era look of the virtual terminal login prompt :) |
| 07:36.39 | gnarface | but personally, it makes me nostalgic |
| 07:37.42 | gnarface | my streaming box in the livingroom has xdm though, because occasionally it might be used by someone who can remember a username and password but can't be bothered to remember the command 'startx' |
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| 07:38.46 | gnarface | hmmm. although, with xdm, now that i think about it, i have it executing ~/.xinitrc on a per-user basis and running xrandr commands even... (blackbox has no built-in layout support) |
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| 07:38.56 | gnarface | so i don't know wtf is up with lightdm |
| 07:39.04 | gnarface | i'm surprised if it can't do that but i've never used it myself :-( |
| 07:41.03 | gmcastil | i guess i'm a little confused - i'm not sure where / how to tell X to use xmonad as its window manager |
| 07:41.59 | gnarface | what does this command give you? "which xmonad" |
| 07:42.31 | gnarface | (sorry, i don't know xmonad either, and i don't want to simply guess it's /usr/bin/xmonad) |
| 07:44.18 | gmcastil | its /usr/bin/xmonad |
| 07:45.41 | gnarface | right, so the contents of your ~/.xinitrc should look like this: http://paste.debian.net/926813/ |
| 07:47.06 | gmcastil | i had exec /usr/bin/xmonad |
| 07:47.15 | gmcastil | let me give it a try - again, thanks |
| 07:47.34 | gnarface | no problem |
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| 07:49.33 | gmcastil_ | so xmonad launches when i run startx.....but now its mirroring the two displays |
| 07:50.03 | gnarface | right, so unless xmonad has some desktop layout tool builtin, you'll probably want to add your xrandr command to that ~/.xinitrc now |
| 07:50.57 | gnarface | or you could go the custom xorg.conf route |
| 07:51.19 | gnarface | really depends on what you're more comfortable with, but if you put it in ~/.xinitrc it can be user-specific |
| 07:52.12 | gnarface | and if you put it in xorg.conf, you might run into obnoxious parsing bugs with certain video drivers (*cough* nvidia *cough) |
| 07:52.23 | gnarface | neither solution is perfect |
| 07:53.14 | gnarface | but both solutions are known to work... mostly |
| 07:54.17 | gnarface | i'm guessing that xfce4 must have some way to persist the desktop layout on it's own, whereas xmonad does not |
| 07:54.50 | gmcastil_ | so just drop the xrandr script I have into .xinitrc and that shoudl do it? |
| 07:55.12 | gnarface | yea pretty much |
| 07:55.15 | gnarface | don't forget the "&" |
| 07:55.42 | gmcastil_ | hm? |
| 07:56.04 | gnarface | hang on i'll give you an example |
| 07:58.35 | gnarface | gmcastil_: http://paste.debian.net/926815/ |
| 07:59.08 | gmcastil_ | cool...so, dumb question....when does .xinitrc get run? |
| 07:59.36 | gnarface | when you run startx |
| 08:00.19 | gnarface | it's run immediately before the window manager starts up |
| 08:00.26 | gnarface | but AFTER you run startx |
| 08:01.14 | gmcastil_ | cool, i'll give it a try now.....terminal is still trapped int he 1970s, but one thing at a time |
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| 08:03.26 | gmcastil | well, that would appear to work |
| 08:03.44 | gmcastil | thanks for the help dude |
| 08:03.58 | gnarface | no problem man. :) |
| 08:04.21 | gmcastil | curious as to why its this complicated for devuan |
| 08:04.29 | gnarface | you know, xrandr might not even need that '&' |
| 08:04.36 | gmcastil | maybe its because i'm not trying to use gnome or kde |
| 08:04.48 | gnarface | now that i'm looking at some of my other machines, i see that not all the commands strictly need to be backgrounded with & |
| 08:05.09 | buZz | i'd be interested in hearing a distro where xmonad comes preconfigured :P |
| 08:05.13 | gmcastil | i dont have any & commands |
| 08:05.30 | gmcastil | my .xinitrc is one line that configures xrandr |
| 08:05.47 | gnarface | gmcastil: it is true that gnome and kde are the types of projects that usually build in support for this. it's when you go to light-weight window managers that you end up missing features like multiple-monitor layout configuration support |
| 08:06.16 | gmcastil | it looks like all i actually modified was a) getting rid of the login manager |
| 08:06.25 | gmcastil | and b) giving xinitrc the right thing to run |
| 08:06.35 | gmcastil | was there something else I changed? |
| 08:06.50 | gnarface | nope |
| 08:07.10 | gnarface | and probably a) was not strictly necessary, i just don't remember how to disable an installed login manager cleanly |
| 08:08.45 | gnarface | someone earlier suggested a debian/devuan specific 'update-alternatives' command that should have worked too. but it would have been a system-wide change of default, not something that can be set per-user without root permission like the ~/.xinitrc. |
| 08:09.06 | gnarface | there's a lot of different approaches here |
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| 08:10.50 | gnarface | and systemd probably something entirely different |
| 08:10.59 | gmcastil_ | got dcd |
| 08:11.06 | gnarface | oh |
| 08:11.08 | gnarface | sorry |
| 08:11.31 | gnarface | i'll pastebin what i typed |
| 08:11.46 | gnarface | gmcastil_: in case you missed it: http://paste.debian.net/926816/ |
| 08:12.05 | gnarface | that was what i responded with after you said "was there something else I changed?" |
| 08:12.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | the good news: no patches needed, kernel already supports adding a module with SysRQ key events handler. Just a question which key to use for 'compose key', and how and where to tell kernel about N900 not having a sysreq key and reassign the F6+F7 aka vol+ + vol- key combo for alt+sysreq |
| 08:12.17 | gmcastil_ | yeah, i think my router has a hardwar problem - i get randomly dcd in a way that requires a power cycle of the machine |
| 08:14.07 | gnarface | hmm, that's disturbing |
| 08:14.54 | buZz | same here :P the psu of my router is getting a lot of voltage drops |
| 08:15.03 | buZz | i need to replace it with a higher amp model |
| 08:15.09 | buZz | or just replace the router, i guess |
| 08:15.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | buZz: wallwart PSU? |
| 08:15.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | or internal |
| 08:15.52 | buZz | yeah the former |
| 08:16.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | swap it, odds are it's borked |
| 08:16.07 | gmcastil_ | buZz: yeah, it just randomly drops the connection and wont restore it - its consistent with different network cards and OS |
| 08:16.48 | gmcastil_ | I've eliminated everythign but the router...ISP says that since I'm not runing windows they cant help me and sya its a software problem |
| 08:17.14 | gmcastil_ | least of my problems now thuogh |
| 08:21.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | buZz: a universal PSU (with voltage setting and a dozen plug adapters) is great for a few days/weeks of testing |
| 08:23.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | buZz: make sure it's a high quality one with electronic regulator, not one of the cheesy cheap ones with heavy transformer and a lside switch that allows selecting 4.5V to 12V but actually that means -20/+80% |
| 08:25.55 | buZz | :) |
| 08:26.01 | buZz | yeah linear psus suck |
| 08:32.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | buZz: the laptop charger things are usually quite decent |
| 08:32.33 | buZz | uhuh |
| 08:32.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | downside: 5V (USB) and then 12V if you find a nice one, otherwise 15V next |
| 08:33.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | if they had a 9V and 12V that would be awesome |
| 08:34.04 | buZz | i'll just check through https://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/recommended_routers :) |
| 08:37.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, ok |
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| 16:46.43 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 19:38.00 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 19:44.42 | wulllst | on devuan, where (in /etc) would i put system-wide command aliases? |
| 19:45.02 | Drugo | files.devuan.org has expired certificate? |
| 19:52.38 | zdzichu | yeah, for about a week |
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| 20:02.46 | KatolaZ | wulllst: ??? |
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| 20:05.19 | wulllst | KatolaZ: well, i think they need to go into /etc/bash.bashrc. |
| 20:12.23 | KatolaZ | it depends on which alias |
| 20:12.46 | KatolaZ | but yes, |
| 20:12.58 | KatolaZ | if it's bash, system-wide aliases should go there |
| 20:13.40 | wulllst | KatolaZ: what i'm trying to do is to make any use of the command "alsaplayer" be "alsaplayer -e" |
| 20:14.58 | wulllst | KatolaZ: when i put that into my user-specific .bashrc, PCManFM still calls "alsaplayer" when you open an audio file from there. i think making the alias system-wide should fix that. |
| 20:15.34 | KatolaZ | wulllst: bash aliases only work from bash |
| 20:16.00 | lowee[m] | why would PCManFM care about your bash config? |
| 20:16.05 | KatolaZ | ana anythong you put in .bashrc is only for non-login sessions |
| 20:16.21 | KatolaZ | (I don't know what PCManFM is, btw) |
| 20:16.46 | pydsigner | A file manager |
| 20:17.06 | KatolaZ | wulllst: so it would have nothing to do with your bashrc |
| 20:17.13 | KatolaZ | wherever you put the aliases |
| 20:17.15 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 20:18.25 | wulllst | ok, i already suspected that from what i read about system-wide aliases. |
| 20:19.07 | KatolaZ | wulllst: it' simple: bash config files are used only by bash |
| 20:19.25 | KatolaZ | a vim config files are used only by vim |
| 20:19.36 | KatolaZ | and fecthmail ones are used just by fetchmail |
| 20:19.39 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 20:19.41 | wulllst | KatolaZ: right, it's totally logical. |
| 20:20.39 | wulllst | what i wanted to do was: make any call of the "alsaplayer" command be translated to "alsaplayer -e", no matter from where that call comes. |
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| 20:22.25 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 20:22.31 | lowee[m] | but ignores any other commandline options you give it ;) |
| 20:22.42 | wulllst | KatolaZ: i was just going to say that this seems a bit quirky. |
| 20:22.46 | KatolaZ | lowee[m]: not if your script pases them over |
| 20:22.52 | KatolaZ | which is absolutely doable |
| 20:23.07 | KatolaZ | see man bash |
| 20:23.14 | KatolaZ | look for "shift" |
| 20:23.16 | lowee[m] | not in the way you wrote it above, to which i was reffering :P |
| 20:23.17 | KatolaZ | and $@ |
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| 20:24.23 | Ponchale | Hi people |
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| 20:24.33 | Ponchale | Hi Centurion_Dan |
| 20:24.38 | Ponchale | how are you |
| 20:27.14 | wulllst | KatolaZ: unfortunately, it seems, PCManFM doesn't provide a way to configure aliases for command run from within itself. |
| 20:28.52 | lowee[m] | try "whereis alsaplayer" to figure out where the command is located (probabls /usr/bin ) |
| 20:30.33 | wulllst | lowee[m]: yes it's in /usr/bin/alsaplayer |
| 20:31.51 | wulllst | just discovered PCMANFM's custom command setting dialog |
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| 20:32.15 | Ponchale | As we are developing a Lxqt-based desktop for easy integration and integration with Astian OS for mobile devices, we want Devuan to use this desktop by default. |
| 20:34.37 | golinux | Heck, I don;t even have a mobile device! |
| 20:35.06 | wulllst | me neither |
| 20:35.16 | golinux | Just sit here in front of the ginormous tower. |
| 20:36.23 | lowee[m] | but uhh, i want to use this on my laptop, why would i want to use the same ui on my laptop and smartphone? |
| 20:36.54 | golinux | Makes no sense for serious work. |
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| 20:37.49 | golinux | I want a real desktop not some fisher-price thingy |
| 20:38.37 | wulllst | Ponchale: i think that lxqt looks really promising and should be available in Devuan. But why would it have to be the default desktop "for easy integration with Astian OS for mobile devices"? |
| 20:39.17 | golinux | Because that's his thing? |
| 20:39.24 | lowee[m] | what is Astian OS? |
| 20:40.05 | golinux | Based on FF os. |
| 20:40.22 | golinux | Mozilla has totally lost my trust. |
| 20:40.28 | Ponchale | We hope that the development of the desktop is faster and efficient, where you will have a cycle of releases more frequent. The convergence mode is only for mobile devices that use Astian OS, among other features |
| 20:40.35 | lowee[m] | the os that tried to make apps out of html5? |
| 20:41.05 | golinux | Astian OS is a mobile operating system based on Firefox OS, built under HTML 5, on a linux kernel, Astian OS is fully open and it allows HTML 5 applications to communicate with device hardware using Javascript and Open Web API. |
| 20:41.13 | Ponchale | Astian is different to Mozilla |
| 20:41.41 | golinux | javascript? It's pretty much DOA in this camp |
| 20:41.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | umm, >>Desktop: Cinnamon, GNOME, KDE, LXDE, MATE, Xfce<< on http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan ? |
| 20:41.46 | Ponchale | And on the contrary, we respect the privacy of users very much |
| 20:42.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | GNOME, KDE? |
| 20:42.28 | golinux | Not buying the pitch. Sorry. |
| 20:42.41 | lowee[m] | is astian libhybris based? |
| 20:42.51 | Ponchale | We are aware that we can not yet compete with Gnome or KDE but all the big projects at some point were small |
| 20:43.21 | golinux | Neither of those DE is something I would want to aspire to. They both suck IMO. |
| 20:43.25 | Ponchale | lowee[m]: sure we support and sponsor of project libnybris what now the name is Halium |
| 20:43.38 | wulllst | Ponchale: i'd like it very much, if LXQt kept being small as opposed to "big", especially in the GNOME sense of the word. |
| 20:43.41 | Ponchale | find me my user is Ponchale in the group |
| 20:44.28 | *** part/#devuan Guest1284 (~Guest@83.220.237.215) |
| 20:45.39 | lowee[m] | pretty sure libhybris is still called libhybris :g |
| 20:46.33 | wulllst | DocScrutinizer05: the gnome option has been reported broken. |
| 20:46.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought both were too systemd-entangled to work at all |
| 20:47.00 | Ponchale | lowee[m]: look |
| 20:47.02 | Ponchale | https://t.me/Libhybris |
| 20:47.10 | golinux | BTW the astian website looks ridiculous even on a 15" monitor. I'm on a MONITOR not a mobile device.!! |
| 20:47.12 | Ponchale | this is group in telegram |
| 20:47.28 | wulllst | DocScrutinizer05: also, there's been a discussion on dropping gnome (for the reason you mention, if i remember right) |
| 20:47.31 | Ponchale | take easy golinux the website today is update |
| 20:47.41 | golinux | The address wasn't understood |
| 20:48.11 | lowee[m] | it's a link for an android app, i meen this libhybris : wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations |
| 20:48.32 | lowee[m] | /libhybris |
| 20:49.13 | wulllst | DocScrutinizer05: i don't know about KDE though. also, if gnome is to systemd-entangled to work on devuan, that is supposedly also an issue with Cinnamon. |
| 20:49.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just came across distrowatch and wondered |
| 20:49.59 | golinux | Cinnamon is currently a bit broken |
| 20:50.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's maybe not honest to claim >>Desktop: Cinnamon, GNOME, KDE, LXDE, MATE, Xfce<< |
| 20:50.25 | wulllst | DocScrutinizer05: well, yes, the info is kind of wrong and should be updated when decisions have been made. |
| 20:50.39 | lowee[m] | i run kde just fine on devuan, though kde 4 and without the kdm |
| 20:51.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, I can't tell, didn't try. I just recall having heard about both KDE and GNOME have 'issues' |
| 20:51.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | without systemd |
| 20:52.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wish the info on distrowatch was accurate, I don't feel like switching desktop away from KDE |
| 20:52.31 | wulllst | is there any discussion about which desktop environments should or can be supported by devuan, currently? |
| 20:54.14 | wulllst | i mean, it should be made clear at some point. |
| 20:57.26 | Lydia_K | I vote to dump gnome3 and not waste any effort on it, instead putting any effort on that front into mate. |
| 20:57.34 | Lydia_K | I have no idea who if anyone is working on any of that. |
| 20:57.56 | wulllst | Lydia_K: sounds reasonable to me. |
| 20:58.14 | Lydia_K | :D |
| 21:00.12 | Lydia_K | Looks like AntoFox is the one handling mate at the moment. |
| 21:00.24 | golinux | Was just going to type that |
| 21:00.36 | golinux | He also works on cinnamon |
| 21:00.46 | Lydia_K | Cool :) |
| 21:00.51 | golinux | But has reached an impasse. |
| 21:00.57 | *** join/#devuan xes__ (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 21:01.01 | Lydia_K | Oh? |
| 21:01.15 | Lydia_K | Do you know the details of that? |
| 21:01.27 | *** join/#devuan aitor (~aitor@229.85-84-19.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es) |
| 21:02.38 | aitor | hi |
| 21:02.47 | golinux | "cinnamon has always been the problem of logind and upower that I can not solve" |
| 21:03.29 | Lydia_K | Ah, I see. |
| 21:04.09 | golinux | He didn't elaborate |
| 21:05.22 | Lydia_K | I'll have to talk to him about it some time. |
| 21:06.03 | aitor | to him? |
| 21:06.20 | aitor | to her.. |
| 21:06.25 | golinux | antofox |
| 21:06.36 | wulllst | i'd suggest that devuan support these desktop environments: LXDE, LXQt, Mate, Xfce, Trinity and maybe Ãtoilé, ROX and CDE sometime in the future if possible. |
| 21:07.07 | Lydia_K | I assume him? I thought Antofox was a him, maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. |
| 21:07.36 | golinux | I'm pretty sure you're right |
| 21:07.40 | aitor | If you are refering to AntoFox, you are right :) |
| 21:07.57 | Lydia_K | Ok cool :) |
| 21:08.32 | golinux | aitor: Ihaven't been able to play the last few viodes clips that you've posted. |
| 21:08.45 | Ponchale | the website in this moment is being update |
| 21:08.45 | golinux | video |
| 21:09.07 | golinux | I used to be able to play them. |
| 21:09.23 | golinux | Might be because you made them on ascii. |
| 21:12.33 | aitor | they were in ffmpeg |
| 21:13.20 | aitor | i couldn't play them in wheezy |
| 21:14.16 | *** join/#devuan Ponchale (~alfonso@190.147.185.238) |
| 21:16.55 | aitor | http://gnuinos.org/simple-netaid-gtk.mpg |
| 21:21.59 | Lydia_K | Looks like there's no lxqt in debian jessie |
| 21:22.06 | Lydia_K | maybe I'll add it to devuan. |
| 21:23.21 | *** join/#devuan dardevelin_ (~dardeveli@unaffiliated/dardevelin) |
| 21:23.47 | wulllst | Lydia_K: well, but there is in stretch. and considering that lxqt is version 0.somewhat, it may be better to wait for 1.0 and then have that included into devuan ascii's stable release. |
| 21:24.40 | KatolaZ | Lydia_K: it would be better to add it in ascii, at this point.... |
| 21:25.18 | Lydia_K | Sure, makes sense. |
| 21:28.17 | lowee[m] | does devuan have backports too? |
| 21:28.29 | aitor | yes |
| 21:29.04 | *** join/#devuan greenjeans (~greenjean@172.76.102.39) |
| 21:29.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | is trinity that KDE fork? |
| 21:29.16 | aitor | https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-stable-backports.list |
| 21:29.22 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, yes |
| 21:29.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds cool |
| 21:29.40 | fsmithred | see exegnulinux for an example of devuan with tde |
| 21:29.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I admit with KDE4 I started hating it somewhat |
| 21:30.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | so maybe trinity should be my DE |
| 21:30.36 | fsmithred | you should try it |
| 21:31.01 | fsmithred | I used to use kde, and trinity looks just like kde to me. |
| 21:31.29 | Lydia_K | I can't stand those "featureful" DEs |
| 21:31.29 | fsmithred | and no problems with systemd deps. |
| 21:31.34 | fsmithred | lol |
| 21:31.57 | fsmithred | you're an openbox girl, I know. |
| 21:32.02 | Lydia_K | Damn right :D |
| 21:32.06 | fsmithred | um, that didn't sound right. |
| 21:32.16 | Lydia_K | People at work joke that my computer is "broken" or "Stuck in the BIOS" |
| 21:32.20 | Lydia_K | LOL!!! |
| 21:32.22 | fsmithred | lol |
| 21:32.34 | Lydia_K | I didn't even realize, but that did come out terrible XD |
| 21:33.13 | fsmithred | wulllst, devuan devs are considering supporting NO desktops. |
| 21:33.25 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: :) |
| 21:33.36 | fsmithred | and leaving that job to downstream devs. |
| 21:33.42 | fsmithred | so... |
| 21:33.48 | greenjeans | nothing wrong with openbox girls |
| 21:33.50 | fsmithred | (can you guess where I'm going with this?) |
| 21:34.03 | fsmithred | pick something you'd like to work on. |
| 21:34.11 | KatolaZ | and make your own distro |
| 21:34.13 | fsmithred | looks like lxqt might be taken already. |
| 21:34.19 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 21:34.29 | fsmithred | or make a blend |
| 21:34.33 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 21:34.38 | greenjeans | you should Katolaz |
| 21:34.44 | fsmithred | we can make blend files until the cows come home |
| 21:34.44 | KatolaZ | making the packages available back in Devuan |
| 21:34.49 | greenjeans | everybody's doing it, c'mon man |
| 21:34.57 | KatolaZ | greenjeans: ? |
| 21:34.58 | KatolaZ | what? |
| 21:35.01 | Lydia_K | Ok, just one distro.. |
| 21:35.06 | greenjeans | lol |
| 21:35.07 | fsmithred | KatolaZ already has done it. |
| 21:35.13 | aitor | see you tomorrow, time to bed here... |
| 21:35.16 | greenjeans | make a distro or 3 |
| 21:35.16 | aitor | 07:10 |
| 21:35.18 | fsmithred | g'night aitor |
| 21:35.19 | fsmithred | yes |
| 21:35.29 | fsmithred | devuan-live-minimal |
| 21:35.30 | KatolaZ | greenjeans: done, before the sdk was out :) |
| 21:35.42 | KatolaZ | actually, some of that work wento into the sdk |
| 21:35.43 | fsmithred | with sound |
| 21:35.56 | aitor | 07:11 |
| 21:36.27 | greenjeans | oh i know, i was just rolling with what fsmithred was saying, i think everybody should make a blend or two |
| 21:36.39 | wulllst | fsmithred: well, i'll have to think about that. by "support" i just meant making then available as installable packages. |
| 21:37.04 | greenjeans | just tried Miyolinux's iso and that got me interested in openbox again |
| 21:37.06 | fsmithred | well, whatever is in debian that doesn't require systemd is already available |
| 21:37.20 | fsmithred | and the ones that do require systemd might be too far gone to save. |
| 21:37.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's just my point. When they have systemd dependecies, they are not really installable |
| 21:37.37 | Lydia_K | I've been thinking about doing my own grid engine / scientific focused devuan distro, just cause. |
| 21:38.00 | fsmithred | I'll have instructions on using live-sdk posted soon |
| 21:38.08 | greenjeans | you should Lydia, that sounds interesting |
| 21:38.23 | KatolaZ | and for the packagers among you, I am posting now instructions on using d1h |
| 21:38.29 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 21:38.47 | fsmithred | so make your GridLinux in a VM and find all your custom configs. |
| 21:38.52 | fsmithred | and we'll put it in a blend. |
| 21:39.07 | greenjeans | stupid question: can you make hybrid iso's with the live sdk? |
| 21:39.11 | Lydia_K | ok, what's a blend? |
| 21:39.16 | fsmithred | yes, greenjeans |
| 21:39.22 | Lydia_K | I've missed something. |
| 21:39.31 | fsmithred | it's a set of configs and package lists for live-sdk |
| 21:39.37 | fsmithred | which automates the build |
| 21:39.43 | Lydia_K | Oohhhh, I see! |
| 21:39.46 | fsmithred | kinda like live-build |
| 21:39.48 | Lydia_K | That's pretty cool. |
| 21:39.50 | Lydia_K | instant live-cd |
| 21:39.54 | fsmithred | yes |
| 21:39.55 | Lydia_K | That's super useful. |
| 21:39.58 | greenjeans | hawtness |
| 21:40.05 | Lydia_K | Nice :D |
| 21:40.10 | fsmithred | instant live-cd for each arch with one build tree |
| 21:40.12 | aitor | Lydia_K: here you are the best one: |
| 21:40.13 | aitor | http://download.doudoulinux.org/?lang=es |
| 21:40.39 | fsmithred | you make a config file with some settings and package list(s) and a blend file with special instructions |
| 21:40.42 | *** join/#devuan RilloBiley (560ab48c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.10.180.140) |
| 21:40.47 | fsmithred | and plug it into the live-sdk |
| 21:41.04 | fsmithred | so we can make a library of blends |
| 21:41.07 | wulllst | well, is that "a distro-per-task" idea really a good way to do thing? i doubt that. i always liked the idea that debian called istself a "universal operating system" that could be anything from a server to a media production desktop. |
| 21:41.08 | *** join/#devuan thehornet (~a0225280@192.91.101.31) |
| 21:41.47 | Lydia_K | aitor: A distro specifically for little kids? Good idea actually. |
| 21:41.58 | aitor | yes :) |
| 21:42.21 | aitor | i have a name for that: bilimbolo |
| 21:42.31 | greenjeans | the whole idea i think also makes for a very robust development environment for devuan as a whole |
| 21:42.38 | greenjeans | engages a lot more folks |
| 21:42.46 | golinux | aitor: Still couldn;t play that link. :( |
| 21:42.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm. I don't say I've thought about that thoroughly, but doesn't that "universal" approach give us systemd-in-everything, even on servers where we for sure don't need SEATS and similar stupid stuff |
| 21:42.55 | fsmithred | greenjeans, that's the idea |
| 21:42.56 | Lydia_K | wulllst: It's the same idea, Devuan is the base, a distro is just an instance of Devuan with certain packages installed and certain things pre-configured to work a certain way, i.e. these window managers, these themes, these apps installed, etc. |
| 21:43.10 | fsmithred | lots more devs are needed to do all that needs to be done |
| 21:43.30 | wulllst | Lydia_K: i don't see the need of an extra distro for something like that. |
| 21:44.05 | fsmithred | I'm not sure it's a separate distro if it doesn't have its own package repository |
| 21:44.21 | fsmithred | I've always said that Refracta is a pseudo-distro for that reason. |
| 21:44.34 | furrywolf | that's what I'd call a task, not a distro. |
| 21:44.43 | greenjeans | yeah, i don't see it so much as extra distros, as I do user-remasters, just different flavors |
| 21:44.52 | Lydia_K | fsmithred: Interesting point, I'm not sure where the line is on defining something as "it's own distro" or not. |
| 21:44.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | i'd not call it "distro", rather maybe "flavor" |
| 21:45.05 | aitor | golinux: it's a ffmpeg, i haven't problems with that in jessie, and i don't use any private software |
| 21:45.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | or "theme" |
| 21:45.15 | fsmithred | well, the argument on the other side is that it's distributed by someone other than devuan (or debian in the past) |
| 21:45.34 | wulllst | Lydia_K: i mean, look at the debian/ubuntu based distro choas that is out there already. it just awful, hard to keep track of and making thing unneccessarily confusing for people, especiaqlly those new to linux. |
| 21:45.38 | greenjeans | exactly where i'm at, i don't want to make my own distro, just want to do some re-mixing where there's some usefulness to it |
| 21:45.53 | *** join/#devuan amphi (~amphi@167.red-81-32-135.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) |
| 21:45.54 | Lydia_K | it's all semantics really, I think greenjeans is right, if it gets more people enganged, interested, and working on things, then who cares what verbage is used? |
| 21:46.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: or "pseudo-distro" or meta, yep |
| 21:46.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Lydia_K: full ack |
| 21:47.14 | aitor | time to bed :) |
| 21:47.15 | golinux | aitor; |
| 21:47.21 | aitor | yes? |
| 21:47.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | the important thing is back propagation of any work done, to "upstream" aka devuan |
| 21:48.09 | RilloBiley | wulllst: lubuntu works out of the box. devuan I'm having to mess with all night & day |
| 21:48.17 | golinux | aitor: I work in media several hours every day playing with mpgs. No problem |
| 21:48.38 | *** join/#devuan Chanku|Mobile (~Chanku|Mo@99-202-106-182.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 21:48.54 | golinux | But yours are DOA |
| 21:49.08 | aitor | DOA? |
| 21:49.11 | greenjeans | i made a custom version of Puppy linux one time for my wife, she needed it to run Citrix (Xenapp) but needed to run the same thing on her home machine at times, and other times at the office and other times elsewhere, the ability to make custom quickie livecd's for specific tasks should not be underestimated |
| 21:49.12 | RilloBiley | dead on arrival |
| 21:49.49 | RilloBiley | for whatever reason I could never get webm to load properly outside of my own pc |
| 21:50.01 | RilloBiley | works on mine, won't play on anyone else's |
| 21:51.26 | wulllst | RilloBiley: if lubuntu "works out of the box" for you, fine. when i install an operating system, i take the time to think about what i (don't) want first, then install a base system, then install all the other stuff and then configure that system to my liking. |
| 21:51.59 | RilloBiley | I have tried every flavor of os that caught my attention |
| 21:52.17 | RilloBiley | but my primary concern is justwerkstm |
| 21:52.27 | furrywolf | I want to actually use my computer, not spend time trying OSes. :) |
| 21:52.36 | RilloBiley | if I wanted manual configuration, I'd have probably gone with slitaz or what some other guy said puppylinux |
| 21:53.20 | RilloBiley | devuan seems like some sort of middle ground between justwerks and arch linux |
| 21:53.35 | RilloBiley | the bulk of the work was done, but there's a bulk of work more which I still have little clue how to do |
| 21:54.03 | fsmithred | RilloBiley, most of the devuan installs I've done have just worked. |
| 21:54.58 | fsmithred | And any problems would be the same in debian. |
| 21:55.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't want to do another 2 weeks of customization and config session every 6 months, after OS update/re-installation |
| 21:55.13 | aitor | golinux: we'll keep fighting tomorrow |
| 21:55.36 | greenjeans | aitor |
| 21:55.39 | RilloBiley | that has not been the case for me |
| 21:55.39 | aitor | bue :) |
| 21:55.44 | aitor | bye :) |
| 21:55.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | never understood how the windows folks could live with that "install windows new!" every few months |
| 21:55.53 | fsmithred | you have very new hardware? |
| 21:56.02 | RilloBiley | Doc I don't remember that being every few months |
| 21:56.09 | RilloBiley | I have very old hardware |
| 21:56.26 | aitor | greenjeans ? |
| 21:56.30 | RilloBiley | the kernel that devuan-stable has given me, ##kernel has described as "ancient" |
| 21:56.40 | fsmithred | yeah, that's a debian thing |
| 21:56.41 | RilloBiley | I was told go get a newer one and see what happens re the laptop fan |
| 21:56.42 | golinux | aitor: We're fighting? |
| 21:56.42 | greenjeans | go to bed please ;) |
| 21:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | RilloBiley: maybe you're not one of those. Nut "when it's getting slow, re-install it from scratch" is a very common approach in M$ world it seems to me |
| 21:57.03 | RilloBiley | how many europeans work on this os? |
| 21:57.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/Nut/But/ |
| 21:57.12 | fsmithred | stable distribution means the versions don't change once it's stable |
| 21:57.24 | fsmithred | mostly europeans |
| 21:57.33 | RilloBiley | ohh yeah, if you take your laptop to a repair shop that's just the default thing-to-do |
| 21:57.40 | Lydia_K | I'm in the US |
| 21:57.47 | Lydia_K | Sorry, I mean "Trump Resorts" |
| 21:57.53 | fsmithred | lol |
| 21:57.54 | aitor | greenjeans: lol |
| 21:58.11 | RilloBiley | Trump has no sense of shame |
| 21:58.13 | fsmithred | no, Trump is not coming here - we rejected him |
| 21:58.27 | greenjeans | I have a machine still running a system i built in 2011, gnome 2, kernel 2.something, still works 100% and never been updated. Updates are not mandatory, if it works i don't fix it mostly |
| 21:58.33 | RilloBiley | trump was your bullet-dodge from hillary |
| 21:58.33 | golinux | Please no politics |
| 21:58.37 | RilloBiley | at least you can have that |
| 21:58.45 | greenjeans | hehe aitor! |
| 21:58.53 | RilloBiley | We will make IRC great again |
| 21:58.59 | aitor | greenjeans: i'm used to your black arts |
| 21:59.13 | Lydia_K | I didn't realize there were so few people from the US here. |
| 21:59.25 | RilloBiley | I have a windows ME machine with RD-RAM. Still works. |
| 21:59.31 | wulllst | i think that instead of encouraging "distro madness" (no offense), devuan should rather promote the idea of being suitable for virtually any common os purpose, if configured right an provide decent docs on how to do that. |
| 21:59.38 | greenjeans | nice rillo |
| 21:59.57 | aitor | bbl |
| 22:00.09 | greenjeans | I still have a pentium 3 lappy with 256 mb ram somewhere, it's running gnome2, lol |
| 22:00.34 | Lydia_K | wulllst: It has always been my impression that one of the main goals of Devuan was to become a stable "base distro" for other people to build on top of, much like there are *SO* many "distros" that are based on debian. |
| 22:00.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | wulllst: AIUI that's exactly the case. Devuan has it all, meta-distros do the blending |
| 22:00.51 | greenjeans | Lydia that's my understanding as well |
| 22:01.07 | Lydia_K | The ecosystem needs a stable base that is systemd-free for others to build atop of. |
| 22:01.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | wulllst: you could use devuan and do the blending yourself, or use a pre-made flavour (and still blend to your liking) |
| 22:01.48 | greenjeans | in fact i e-mailed one of the devs before i started fooling around with re-mixing, and he encouraged me to do it wholeheartedly |
| 22:02.24 | greenjeans | little did he know i'm a crazy person |
| 22:02.40 | Lydia_K | greenjeans: LOL |
| 22:03.03 | RilloBiley | before devuan, I came from Salix, which I came from from AntiX, which I came from from Lubuntu |
| 22:03.34 | RilloBiley | each and every os presented problems, except lubuntu |
| 22:03.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy |
| 22:04.09 | RilloBiley | but with lubuntu, you are a slave to canonical and others |
| 22:04.27 | RilloBiley | where does devuan get it's funds anyway? |
| 22:04.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds to me like "neither of the 6 big meals at Mcdonals had exactly my favorite seelction of food" |
| 22:04.43 | RilloBiley | I imagine you all in the poor house, because I never donate any money to free stuff |
| 22:04.46 | Lydia_K | RilloBiley: Funds? What are "funds"? |
| 22:05.01 | greenjeans | wow |
| 22:05.13 | RilloBiley | well, that's changing, but very slowly |
| 22:05.23 | greenjeans | i donate money and/or time to most free stuff i use |
| 22:05.39 | RilloBiley | it took me an age to figure out which software I liked |
| 22:05.44 | RilloBiley | I still don't really like any |
| 22:06.00 | *** join/#devuan telst4r (~telstar@fsf/member/telst4r) |
| 22:06.08 | RilloBiley | most of what I do like seems to be a one man operation |
| 22:06.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a tad of the wrong channel to complain about that |
| 22:06.13 | RilloBiley | AntiX is largely one such example |
| 22:06.26 | greenjeans | Docscrutinizer: lol! |
| 22:06.37 | RilloBiley | pale moon is my favorite browser - one guy runs the show |
| 22:06.42 | greenjeans | my happy meal does not make me happy |
| 22:07.01 | RilloBiley | that is an inadequate and unfair comparison |
| 22:07.17 | RilloBiley | you'd never win a fight with the ronald |
| 22:07.28 | RilloBiley | only the king wins a fight with ronald |
| 22:08.35 | greenjeans | i here apple computers just work out of the box, no manual config necessary because none is possible |
| 22:08.42 | RilloBiley | hahaha |
| 22:08.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | greenjeans: exactly |
| 22:08.58 | RilloBiley | have you ever had to touch an apple product? |
| 22:09.02 | RilloBiley | don't you feel all dirty? |
| 22:09.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | rather like a dummy |
| 22:09.20 | Lydia_K | greenjeans: LOL! |
| 22:10.13 | RilloBiley | well, pale moon and qbittorrent are the only two pieces of software I've been comfortable enough to settle upon |
| 22:10.15 | Lydia_K | Using a windows machine makes me infuriated. |
| 22:10.27 | furrywolf | same here. |
| 22:10.29 | Lydia_K | It's all voodoo dances and black magic, I can't stand that sort of thing. |
| 22:10.36 | MinceR | yes, they're broken out of the box, and much of that you won't even be able to fix |
| 22:10.43 | MinceR | It Just... Needs More Work(tm) |
| 22:11.01 | RilloBiley | Windows 7 does a fine job of voodoo-working out of the box |
| 22:11.03 | greenjeans | i hear gnome3 is made of easy |
| 22:11.17 | MinceR | it's the worst when products are broken by design, intentionally |
| 22:11.25 | MinceR | yes, easy fail |
| 22:11.46 | MinceR | You're Holding It Wrong(tm) |
| 22:11.51 | RilloBiley | do you think at some point I'm gonna have to use windows 10? |
| 22:11.51 | greenjeans | lol |
| 22:12.02 | RilloBiley | like, I'll walk in a library, and all of the terminals have windows 10 on them? |
| 22:12.06 | *** join/#devuan Besnik_b (~Besnik@athedsl-221964.home.otenet.gr) |
| 22:12.06 | MinceR | the world government may eventually force you to |
| 22:12.20 | RilloBiley | sorry not "terminals" "app-playing slimtabs" |
| 22:12.27 | MinceR | web terminals |
| 22:12.37 | MinceR | or to use a word from Orwell, telescreens |
| 22:12.45 | greenjeans | am i in #debianfork? ;) |
| 22:12.52 | MinceR | evidently |
| 22:13.07 | Lydia_K | He's right, this is WAY off the topic of Devuan now |
| 22:13.14 | Lydia_K | move it to #debianfork |
| 22:13.18 | RilloBiley | the main stumbling block for me, is that the price of freedom is endless hard work |
| 22:13.25 | RilloBiley | and that's been true for me of debian |
| 22:13.37 | RilloBiley | I wouldn't have come to the irc if I had no problems |
| 22:13.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | win7 is full of shit as well. Not the pest that's win10, but still |
| 22:14.25 | RilloBiley | I'm willing to pay the price for my freedom |
| 22:14.35 | RilloBiley | but there are plenty others, my own friends, who I think aren't |
| 22:14.41 | greenjeans | by moving to #debianfork? |
| 22:14.48 | golinux | Please move this discussion to #debianfork |
| 22:14.49 | greenjeans | ;) |
| 22:14.57 | golinux | Great minds! |
| 22:15.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | got a win7 box for the inevitable 5 dev apps I need for my EE job, Got me a Huawai mate for installing linux on it. so far it still has win10 and I don't even want to touch it |
| 22:15.18 | fsmithred | RilloBiley, when you get to the library, reboot the terminal with your favorite devuan blend on a usb stick. |
| 22:15.40 | furrywolf | fsmithred: and probably get re-booted from the library if they see you... |
| 22:15.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, this should go to #debianfork |
| 22:15.54 | greenjeans | or take a laptop to the library |
| 22:15.57 | RilloBiley | it happened today fsmithred. "There appears to be a problem with your account. Contact a member of staff." |
| 22:16.19 | RilloBiley | I thought I'd been caught red-handed using an encrypted email service |
| 22:16.45 | wulllst | Lydia_K: i just think that "building atop" by creating another distro is not necessarily the best way of doing things and should only be done if there are good reasons. if a system would require major tweaking, like maybe in the use case of a recording studio, then a specialized distro would make sense, coming with a precompiled real-time capable kernel, jack and so on. however, i don't see the need of creating so-called flav |
| 22:17.24 | RilloBiley | I keep being told to drop the conversation, but regarding flavors: "the more, the merrier" |
| 22:17.41 | RilloBiley | now I've come here with problems |
| 22:17.56 | RilloBiley | those problems are proprietary EC (embedded controller) firmware |
| 22:18.06 | greenjeans | @ wulllst : ever paint the walls in your house a different color? |
| 22:18.07 | RilloBiley | I don't even know where on the laptop this chip is |
| 22:18.23 | Lydia_K | wulllst: It engages people to get involved, to put work in, to build packages, create configs, spread the word in general, these are all good things, and if it's really a meta-distro, that's just a "flavor" or whatever language we want to use, then it's all just Devuan with pre-configured setups. |
| 22:18.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 22:19.01 | RilloBiley | I once tried to change stable to testing and broke my pc |
| 22:19.10 | RilloBiley | couldn't launch openbox or anything |
| 22:19.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | RilloBiley: please stop it |
| 22:20.12 | RilloBiley | ok then: how do I update my kernel to a newer revision? |
| 22:20.31 | greenjeans | first, go to #debianfork |
| 22:20.46 | greenjeans | then update sources.list |
| 22:20.49 | RilloBiley | isn't that just your off topic channel? |
| 22:20.50 | greenjeans | ;) |
| 22:21.05 | RilloBiley | last time I did this with debian it broke everything |
| 22:21.22 | greenjeans | probably break everything again |
| 22:21.23 | RilloBiley | you sure this switch to testing is going to work? |
| 22:22.10 | greenjeans | i thought you were complaining about breakage, then you were complaining about stable, pretty soon you're gonna complain about breakage again, i feel it coming.... |
| 22:22.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | RilloBiley: this is especially to you: please try to keep quotes of experiences and problems with other than devuan out of this channel |
| 22:23.08 | wulllst | greenjeans: yes, everytime devuan puts out a stable release, currently they are #7a7692 |
| 22:23.23 | RilloBiley | this finger wagging also reminds me of ubuntu |
| 22:23.41 | greenjeans | lol wulllst! |
| 22:24.13 | greenjeans | just saying, flavors are good |
| 22:24.40 | RilloBiley | according to https://libreboot.org/faq.html#what-other-firmware-exists-outside-of-libreboot the EC firmware is possibly responsible not only for my non-working laptop fan, but also the reason none of the hotkeys to control volume or brightness work |
| 22:25.11 | greenjeans | wow, i wonder if i can have home depot mix me paint via color hex code?....damn, sorry, getting off-topic again... |
| 22:25.39 | RilloBiley | ok for the sake of entertainment I will go and join debian-flavor |
| 22:25.52 | RilloBiley | fork* |
| 22:27.47 | greenjeans | fsmithred: in the blend/config files for the live sdk can we spec out dumping a lot of the locale stuff and docs that we normally clean out before we run iso's the way we do now? |
| 22:28.03 | *** join/#devuan Xenguy (~Xenguy@unaffiliated/xenguy) |
| 22:28.24 | wulllst | greenjeans: ok, i'm by no means generally against blends/flavors/derivates. i just got the impression that everyone out there is totally overdoing it from my regular visits at distrowatch. |
| 22:28.34 | *** join/#devuan aaro (~aaro@unaffiliated/xyox/x-040147) |
| 22:28.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | why would Devuan bother? |
| 22:29.09 | Lydia_K | Personally I *LOVE* the diversity in the linux ecosystem! I think it's great! There are so many different ideas being experimented with all the time |
| 22:29.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think I've seen that ages ago, when I thought "Kubuntu? WTF?" |
| 22:29.59 | Lydia_K | It's one of the reason I think the entire "One linux" "core OS toolkit" philosophy is flawed, it kills that diversity and experimentation. |
| 22:30.01 | KatolaZ | wulllst: evolution consists of the parallel exploration of multiple possible paths |
| 22:30.09 | greenjeans | i get it wulllst, but out of all the craziness, many good things are born, robust development does get results |
| 22:30.11 | Xenguy | drank the Ubuntu koolaid for about a year... |
| 22:30.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and iirc it was less simple to install KDE on plain Ubuntu |
| 22:30.34 | *** join/#devuan Chanku|Mobile (~Chanku|Mo@99-202-106-182.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 22:30.37 | RilloBiley | they made some nice stuff in the end |
| 22:30.40 | RilloBiley | krita for example |
| 22:30.43 | wulllst | Lydia_K: well, i always used Debian because it wouldn't change so much over time. then came systemd. |
| 22:31.06 | Xenguy | Yeah |
| 22:31.35 | wulllst | greenjeans: you're probably right. |
| 22:31.55 | Xenguy | systemd has just ruined Debian for me .oO( No fun, my babe, no fun ) |
| 22:32.08 | unixman | pats his Devuan VM |
| 22:33.12 | Chanku|Mobile | anyone here potentially able to help me out with figuring out how to connect to the WiFi network where I am? |
| 22:34.01 | RilloBiley | is it more complicated than install wicd and put the details in there? |
| 22:34.42 | Chanku|Mobile | I don't use wicd and lack a connection to install it. |
| 22:34.53 | RilloBiley | If it's more complicated I can't help you; I should say though, this is the most helpful irc channel I've ever found in an os |
| 22:34.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 22:35.15 | greenjeans | what network manager do you use? |
| 22:35.39 | Chanku|Mobile | I don't use one really, unless ifup/down counts |
| 22:35.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ifup fails? |
| 22:35.55 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing (~Ben_Meyer@172-6-231-63.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:36.13 | Chanku|Mobile | Depends on your definition. |
| 22:36.17 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: well, you would have to configure /etc/network/interfaces first, wouldn't you? |
| 22:36.31 | Chanku|Mobile | Yeah, that is where I am having issues |
| 22:36.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | so shiit |
| 22:36.45 | Chanku|Mobile | Yeah. |
| 22:36.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | shoot, even |
| 22:36.48 | greenjeans | what are you trying to connect? laptop? |
| 22:36.53 | Chanku|Mobile | Yes. |
| 22:37.42 | greenjeans | need different wi-fi driver mebbe? I have to load ralink drivers in mine, neither debian nor devuan had them onboard the netinstalls i did |
| 22:37.55 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: and the wifi device itself is being recognized properly? |
| 22:37.59 | Chanku|Mobile | I have connected to WiFi before |
| 22:38.05 | wulllst | ok |
| 22:38.08 | Chanku|Mobile | Just having issues with THIS network. |
| 22:38.25 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: so, what is your exact problem in /etc/network/interfaces? |
| 22:38.30 | Chanku|Mobile | I am trying to do a static IP because dhclient fails to get an IP |
| 22:38.37 | greenjeans | haven't loaded the aurora GTK engine by any chance have you? |
| 22:38.48 | Chanku|Mobile | aurora GTK engine? |
| 22:39.01 | greenjeans | yeah, i know it sounds strange |
| 22:39.02 | Chanku|Mobile | This happens without X being starte |
| 22:39.07 | Chanku|Mobile | *started |
| 22:39.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | Chanku|Mobile: iwconfig |
| 22:39.20 | Chanku|Mobile | What about iwconfig? |
| 22:39.21 | greenjeans | but there's a bug in it, conflicts with connecting |
| 22:39.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | does the WLAN work? |
| 22:39.50 | Chanku|Mobile | I know I can connect. |
| 22:39.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | iwlist scan |
| 22:40.07 | Chanku|Mobile | I am telling you it works. |
| 22:40.15 | Chanku|Mobile | I usually do that when I am unsure of the es |
| 22:40.23 | Chanku|Mobile | *ssid of the network |
| 22:40.44 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: have you tried defining a static ip? |
| 22:40.50 | Chanku|Mobile | Yes |
| 22:40.56 | Chanku|Mobile | I have issues with that. |
| 22:41.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Just having issues with THIS network.<< now THAT gets complicated then, particularly remote |
| 22:41.13 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: are there error messages? |
| 22:41.23 | Chanku|Mobile | The gateway is 172.16.0.1 while the IP I am getting 172.16.149.255 |
| 22:41.38 | Chanku|Mobile | And when I try and use those settings |
| 22:41.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | the IP is BS |
| 22:41.57 | Chanku|Mobile | That is what comes up when I connect with my phone. |
| 22:41.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | *.*.*.255 is broadcast |
| 22:42.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 22:43.25 | Chanku|Mobile | When I try and use static I get: RTNETLINK answers: No such process |
| 22:43.34 | Chanku|Mobile | Then it says failed to bring up interface. |
| 22:43.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | wlan0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr EC:9B:5B:FD:85:51 |
| 22:43.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:44.03 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: did you try any ip other than the one ending on 255? that might solve your problem. |
| 22:44.09 | Chanku|Mobile | Yes |
| 22:44.12 | Chanku|Mobile | Same error. |
| 22:45.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | is the network running a DHCP server? what's the IP it provides for you in DHCP lease? |
| 22:46.07 | Chanku|Mobile | I have no idea. It is a motel. |
| 22:46.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaj! |
| 22:46.19 | Chanku|Mobile | When I use my phone it changes. |
| 22:46.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | those are generally totally fubar |
| 22:46.42 | Chanku|Mobile | Yes...however I need to connect for school. |
| 22:46.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | employing totally weird "authentication and payment" tweaks |
| 22:47.08 | Chanku|Mobile | The network is opeb |
| 22:47.10 | Chanku|Mobile | *open |
| 22:47.34 | Chanku|Mobile | when you connect you are redirected to a page (172.16.0.1:8000) and you enter in the password. |
| 22:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but maybe has a dynamic MAC whitelist, or whatever |
| 22:48.25 | Chanku|Mobile | I am not sure it does. |
| 22:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, beyond my experience |
| 22:49.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just know there's a bazillion different implementations, one more weird than the other |
| 22:50.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually the easiest way to cope with that crap is to tether as NIC a device that actually *can* log in and connect |
| 22:50.31 | *** join/#devuan punk1_ (~punk@56.red-88-8-247.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) |
| 22:50.36 | punk1_ | oiii |
| 22:50.40 | punk1_ | tzag! |
| 22:50.51 | Chanku|Mobile | I am half tempted to go down and ask the front desk for their network admin (presuming they have one.) And try and get their help. Probably will be useless though. |
| 22:50.59 | punk1_ | Did you here about Network-manager for BSD |
| 22:51.00 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: is that wpa-encrypted? |
| 22:51.00 | punk1_ | https://github.com/GhostBSD/networkmgr |
| 22:51.03 | Chanku|Mobile | And yeah, phone doesn't tether |
| 22:51.19 | punk1_ | apparently it works without systemd |
| 22:51.20 | Chanku|Mobile | Nope, network not encrypted for connection |
| 22:51.39 | punk1_ | hear* |
| 22:52.17 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@201-13-72-1.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
| 22:52.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it's strongly deprecated to use it at all, for security reasons |
| 22:52.20 | Xenguy | I use wicd |
| 22:52.28 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: what would the password be there for then? |
| 22:52.58 | punk1_ | NetworkMgr is a network manager for FreeBSD and GhostBSD built with Python GTK. |
| 22:53.06 | punk1_ | but this is way better than Wicd |
| 22:53.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | wulllst: does 'magic' in router/AP |
| 22:53.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | like whitelist your MAC |
| 22:53.41 | Chanku|Mobile | You enter the password on a webpage that you are directed too and will be redirected too until you enter it |
| 22:53.44 | Xenguy | punk1_: you find wicd too bloaty, or ...? |
| 22:54.04 | wulllst | DocScrutinizer05: ok. |
| 22:54.06 | punk1_ | yeah its kind of buggy and limited |
| 22:54.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, it also disables the redirect |
| 22:54.28 | punk1_ | network-manager also always easy-setup of vpns |
| 22:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and sometimes even hands you over to another subnet |
| 22:54.44 | Xenguy | I like it, but only as it's worked pretty well for me so far, tho I don't use a lot of wireless |
| 22:54.52 | furrywolf | network-manager makes me mad. |
| 22:55.10 | Chanku|Mobile | is confused on what convos are apart of which one |
| 22:55.19 | Xenguy | 8-D |
| 22:55.32 | punk1_ | maybe the developers after this new can adapt it to devuan |
| 22:55.39 | furrywolf | it tries to do things automatically, and doesn't work. and lacks functional command-line configuration. unless it's been vastly improved, i would not suggest using it, ever. |
| 22:55.51 | punk1_ | NetworkMgr is a network manager for FreeBSD and GhostBSD built with Python GTK. |
| 22:55.52 | RilloBiley | yes punk1_ I was looking for something to make vpn easier |
| 22:56.00 | punk1_ | this one has been made by bsd guys |
| 22:56.12 | punk1_ | so must be better |
| 22:56.58 | unixman | furrywolf, "First, disable Network Mangler and uninstall it!" <- Notes to myself when installing systems that use(d) that thing. ;) |
| 22:57.06 | RilloBiley | huh... |
| 22:57.07 | RilloBiley | The following packages have unmet dependencies: network-manager : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. |
| 22:57.29 | furrywolf | unixman; good plan. ;P |
| 22:57.30 | *** join/#devuan dardevelin (~dardeveli@unaffiliated/dardevelin) |
| 22:57.38 | Chanku|Mobile | sighs |
| 22:57.41 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: can you paste the content of your /etc/network/interfaces somewhere? |
| 22:57.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | !oatebin |
| 22:58.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | !patebin |
| 22:58.04 | infobot | well, patebin is your friend |
| 22:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | argh f u bot! |
| 22:58.16 | punk1_ | im talking about the Network Manager for BSD |
| 22:58.22 | unixman | looks for a bin of pate |
| 22:58.26 | punk1_ | https://github.com/GhostBSD/networkmgr |
| 22:58.29 | Chanku|Mobile | wullst: I have no internet connection. |
| 22:58.36 | Chanku|Mobile | I only have my phone. |
| 22:58.37 | Xenguy | Pate yourself now! |
| 22:58.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | !pastebin |
| 22:58.40 | infobot | [pastebin] a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few: http://pastebin.ca, http://channels.debian.net/paste, http://paste.lisp.org, http://bin.cakephp.org/; or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude. |
| 22:58.45 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: how can you be on irc then? |
| 22:58.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | unixman: ta! :-) |
| 22:58.48 | punk1_ | not yet implemented in devuan or even other Linux distros i guess |
| 22:58.55 | unixman | DocScrutinizer05, yay! :) |
| 22:58.56 | Chanku|Mobile | points to name |
| 22:59.04 | Chanku|Mobile | I am on my phone. |
| 22:59.47 | RilloBiley | you know it's the future when phones can do irc |
| 22:59.50 | unixman | wulllst, there are IRC clients for smart phones. It's 2017 now you know. ;) |
| 23:00.14 | wulllst | does not own mobile devices apart from broken laptops |
| 23:00.31 | Xenguy | hugs his keyboard in his cold dead hands... |
| 23:00.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | owns a phone with linux and IRC since... 7 years? |
| 23:00.44 | unixman | has a netbook, two tablets and two smart phones |
| 23:01.16 | RilloBiley | that's off topic. go to off topic. booo fun |
| 23:01.29 | RilloBiley | no funposts |
| 23:02.00 | Chanku|Mobile | In any case. This is highly frustrating. If I could I would settle for a free xfinity WiFi hotspot and use my MAC Address changer. |
| 23:02.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | Chanku|Mobile: it's nearly impossible to diagnose your hotel WLAN remotely |
| 23:02.15 | Chanku|Mobile | But it isn't available. |
| 23:02.24 | Chanku|Mobile | Yeah. Sadly. |
| 23:02.49 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: and you're sure the config file syntax is right? |
| 23:02.56 | Chanku|Mobile | Yes |
| 23:03.26 | wulllst | Chanku|Mobile: well, then you're probably out of luck this time. |
| 23:03.56 | Chanku|Mobile | Yeah. |
| 23:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | what you *could* do is use airodump or the like to protocol the exact traffic between your phone (or any other working device) logging in at the AP |
| 23:04.21 | *** join/#devuan punk1__ (~punk@56.red-88-8-247.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) |
| 23:04.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | then dump your own WLAN traffic and check where it differs |
| 23:05.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | takes an hour or two but usually finally yields some results. If you have the tools |
| 23:05.38 | Chanku|Mobile | I don't think I have the tools |
| 23:05.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | some friends of mine frequently circumvent the pay wall login of gotels this way |
| 23:06.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | hotels* |
| 23:06.20 | Chanku|Mobile | Alright. |
| 23:06.26 | *** join/#devuan punk1_ (~punk@195-154-69-175.rev.poneytelecom.eu) |
| 23:06.37 | Chanku|Mobile | In any case I will try some things |
| 23:07.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I should have warned them that this is considered a crime in some countries |
| 23:08.38 | RilloBiley | you 1337 h4xx09 y0~ |
| 23:10.44 | *** part/#devuan wulllst (~msi@dslb-178-012-123-102.178.012.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 23:10.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | funny enough some of those countries don't consider it a crime when you run your own AP with exactly same SSID in one of the hotel rooms and make your neighbors' devices connect to that rather than the hotel WLAN |
| 23:11.05 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~Drugo@62-11-1-95.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 23:12.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly the reason why open hotel WLAN's are stongly deprecated |
| 23:19.59 | *** join/#devuan blueness (~blueness@gentoo/developer/blueness) |
| 23:37.09 | *** join/#devuan RilloBiley (560ab48c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.10.180.140) |
| 23:40.40 | *** join/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@46.166.188.239) |
| 23:42.32 | *** join/#devuan xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
