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| 02:32.40 | AlexLikeRock | hi |
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| 02:55.56 | AlexLikeRock | cool LIBRE OFFICE ARE : vER. 5.4.0 |
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| 04:10.44 | R0b0t1 | Hello I downloaded a release from http://mirror.belltower.us/devuan/devuan_jessie/desktop-live/ but it seems to be signed by someone's personal GPG key |
| 04:10.54 | R0b0t1 | does anyone have a .iso link that is signed by the Devuan team? |
| 04:11.03 | R0b0t1 | key D95DDF2BF71AAAEB: public key "fsmithred (aka fsr) <fsmithred@gmail.com>" imported |
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| 04:13.26 | R0b0t1 | I tried http://mirror.belltower.us/devuan/devuan_jessie/installer-iso/ and it has another personal key as the signatory |
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| 05:10.10 | golinux | R0b0t1: https://files.devuan.org/devuan-devs.gpg |
| 05:11.23 | golinux | Found on the download page: https://files.devuan.org/ |
| 05:12.06 | golinux | Same files can be found here: http://mirror.belltower.us/devuan/devuan_jessie/ |
| 05:17.37 | R0b0t1 | golinux: I prefer to get keys from the distributed key servers |
| 05:17.58 | R0b0t1 | Is the developer key file signed in any way? |
| 05:21.21 | golinux | Don't know. fsmithred is responsible for the desktop-live isos |
| 05:21.58 | R0b0t1 | Alright, I guess that will be good enough for now |
| 05:22.00 | R0b0t1 | thank you |
| 05:22.13 | golinux | He might have put together the installer iso too. |
| 05:24.38 | R0b0t1 | Was someone else |
| 05:24.43 | golinux | Copying here some suggestions from the stable release announcement: |
| 05:24.49 | golinux | For off-line installations we recommend using the DVD image or the live images, not the /installer-iso images. For on-line installations please use the NETINST images. |
| 05:24.49 | golinux | (The use of the CD image is not recommended, since the iso does not contain enough applications to make it useful in any off-line circumstance.) |
| 05:24.49 | R0b0t1 | Denis Roio |
| 05:24.49 | golinux | All files offered for download come with their SHA256 hash to check the integrity (either in the SHA256SUMS or in the .sha files) and with a cryptographic signature made using GnuPG by one of the Devuan developers in charge of the build, included as .asc file. |
| 05:25.12 | golinux | Of course. |
| 05:25.18 | golinux | jaromil! |
| 05:26.41 | golinux | Hope all goes well for you. Bed for me. |
| 05:26.47 | R0b0t1 | Goodnight |
| 05:38.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>keys are belonging to core Devuan developers<< I suggest to sign all keys of core devs with a unique "Devuan" key |
| 05:41.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | or explain on website that "4ACB7D10 Jaromil" is such "Devuan" official signing key |
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| 05:42.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://susepaste.org/63585032 |
| 06:01.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if there exists some client-server tool for signing a file by locally checksumming it but then sending the checksum data to a remote server which hold the private key, sign it there and finally transferring the signed checksum back to local client to append the signature to the file. This would be the ideal solution for a group of people using a common key while not handing the key out and thus losing access control |
| 06:08.49 | R0b0t1 | DocScrutinizer05: Yes, that is what surprised me, there is a Devuan project signing key that does not appear to actually be used for anything |
| 06:09.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | there is? |
| 06:09.13 | R0b0t1 | Using it to sign the developer keys would be a good way to get around centralized releases for the mean time |
| 06:09.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that's the obvious and simple approach |
| 06:09.51 | R0b0t1 | DocScrutinizer05: 94532124541922FB |
| 06:10.01 | R0b0t1 | "Devuan Repository (Primary Devuan signing key) <repository@devuan.org>" |
| 06:10.12 | R0b0t1 | So I suppose that's their package manager |
| 06:10.19 | R0b0t1 | I got that from the release page |
| 06:11.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah yes, thanks! http://susepaste.org/30920507 |
| 06:12.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, obviously all "core dev" keys should get signed by that one, not just by jaromil's |
| 06:14.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | but ideally that key would get used directly to sign all ISO etc. For that it should get accessed via a client-server service since obviously you wouldn't want to spread the key across an arbitrary number of users |
| 06:15.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | alternatively sign files on devuan's fileserver, where aiui all (ISO) files have to live in the end |
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| 08:13.22 | aitor | g'morning |
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| 08:27.45 | aitor | some packages are missing in devuan jessie backports, packages like: |
| 08:28.14 | aitor | debhelper_10.2.5~bpo8+1_all.deb |
| 08:28.26 | aitor | kernel-wedge_2.93~bpo8+1_all.deb |
| 08:28.35 | aitor | dh-autoreconf_12~bpo8+1_all.deb |
| 08:28.46 | aitor | dh-strip-nondeterminism_0.034-1~bpo8+1_all.deb |
| 08:29.07 | aitor | they exist in i386 |
| 08:29.41 | aitor | but not in amd64 |
| 08:30.22 | aitor | oops, they are _all.deb !! |
| 08:31.32 | aitor | they were available some days ago, when i built linux-libre-4.9 on jessie i386 |
| 08:32.05 | aitor | yesterday i had to download them manually from debian's backports |
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| 08:37.55 | aitor | i'm uploading the amd64 packages of linux-libre-4.9.40: http://gnuinos.org/linux-libre-4.9.40/ |
| 08:38.19 | aitor | the kernel has been built on jessie + backports |
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| 11:17.40 | bill-auger | hey aitor - we have been trying to figure out how to pronounce "gnuinos" - someone just suggested "genuinos" - as in genuine OS - i kinda like that - was that your intention? |
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| 11:32.10 | Evilham | I always read it like that :-p |
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| 11:49.28 | DusXMT | would probably pronounce it as "gnu in os" |
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| 11:52.00 | fsmithred | antelope in mouth |
| 11:53.16 | fsmithred | or maybe antelope in bone |
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| 12:33.38 | student4 | good morning good people |
| 12:34.05 | student4 | congrats on 1.0, fantastic job.... |
| 12:35.13 | student4 | I am seeing something rather strange when I do "lsof | grep systemd" |
| 12:35.27 | student4 | I would like to help the effort to rectify that |
| 12:41.11 | DusXMT | student4: libsystemd.so? |
| 12:42.04 | student4 | yep; /lib/systemd/* |
| 12:42.31 | DusXMT | We haven't yet gotten rid of that fully yet. For the jessie release, the goal was to create a distribution that would work without systemd, the next stop is getting rid of it all |
| 12:43.16 | chr[] | hey, anyone here attending sha2017 @ NL? |
| 12:43.53 | DusXMT | student4: It's more or less harmless; after all, with no systemd to communicate with, what's libsystemd going to do? |
| 12:46.18 | student4 | DusXMT: cool, I read that on a thread on the galaxy forum... I was just wondering if the udevd we are running is systemd's ("udevd --version" comes back with 215) and that indeed this reason this forsaken poison code running on my system |
| 12:47.18 | DusXMT | student4: Yeah, currently udev is managed by the systemd project. A replacement is supposedly in works, vdev, though I'm not a developer so I don't know much abou tit. |
| 12:47.22 | student4 | sorry, that came out confusing |
| 12:47.25 | DusXMT | *about it |
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| 12:47.44 | student4 | ah ok! |
| 12:48.29 | DusXMT | student4: Also, in case udev starts to become dependent on systemd being present, gentoo has a "just-to-be-safe" fork called eudev |
| 12:50.53 | student4 | DusXMT: what is the issue with just pinning whatever udev version we were using on wheezy? |
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| 12:53.30 | DusXMT | student4: I don't know enough about udev to really be able to answer that :) If it has a public API (eg. via dbus) that evolves, new software might require that new interface. And of course, there were likely many bugfixes since |
| 12:54.37 | DusXMT | udev might be managed by the systemd project, but it's thankfully not intimately tied to it yet (or else we wouldn't be able to use it) |
| 12:56.23 | student4 | DusXMT: thanks for the patience to explain! |
| 12:56.58 | DusXMT | no problem :) |
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| 12:59.48 | fsmithred | you get /lib/systemd/ with udev |
| 13:00.21 | fsmithred | and if you replace udev with eudev, /lib/systemd/ will still be there |
| 13:00.41 | fsmithred | maybe not with vdev. not sure about that. |
| 13:01.45 | DusXMT | (indeed, that's why I said "just-to-be-safe"; in case upstream makes udev fundamentally dependent on systemd, the infrastructure to remedy against this is in place) |
| 13:01.46 | fsmithred | eudev and vdev are both in experimental. |
| 13:02.50 | DusXMT | At least that's how the people in #gentoo describe eudev |
| 13:04.09 | student4 | I was wondering tho, in 215 on Devuan we have a systemd-udevd as the actual binary running under /lib/systemd and /sbin/udevd is just a symlink, and that doesnt seem to be the case in wheezy |
| 13:04.46 | fsmithred | it takes time to eat a whole elephant |
| 13:06.39 | fsmithred | vdev and eudev both work. vdev does need some attention. eudev appears to be an equal replacement for udev. |
| 13:06.59 | fbt | eudev is a drop-in replacement. |
| 13:07.08 | fbt | It's a direct fork, after all. |
| 13:08.13 | fbt | Also, vdev is a mothballed project |
| 13:08.17 | fsmithred | the problem I have with vdev is that I can't make a live iso without udev installed, because the live-* scripts need udevadm |
| 13:08.30 | fsmithred | with eudev it all works. |
| 13:08.59 | fsmithred | yeah, there have been packaging efforts for vdev, but no further development for a long time. |
| 13:09.09 | fbt | Yeah, vdev has a compat library, but doesn't provide all the fancy stuff |
| 13:09.18 | fbt | You could stub udevadm easily |
| 13:09.30 | fsmithred | don't know what that means |
| 13:09.45 | fbt | Make a script that does the bare minimum those scripts expect from udevadm |
| 13:09.57 | student4 | fsmithred: I know it doesnt really matter since the code is pretty much the same from the snake pit but it would appear to me a that from 175 to 215 we might have enought API that would cause breakage with jessie's other packages. That is the rationale? |
| 13:10.07 | fbt | Best case if you can just make it a link to /bin/true :D |
| 13:10.24 | fsmithred | ok, yeah. I've had a look at where it gets used in the live scripts, but I haven't worked to figure out what it actually does. |
| 13:10.30 | fsmithred | no, it really does something. |
| 13:11.02 | fsmithred | student4, rationale for what? |
| 13:11.04 | fbt | Well if it doesn't do anything you particularly care about, or something that doesn't need to be done if you run vdev... |
| 13:11.09 | fbt | Then you could just stb it out. |
| 13:11.11 | fbt | stub* |
| 13:11.28 | fbt | Otherwise yeah, would probably be possible to write a fairly simple script instead |
| 13:11.29 | student4 | fms: for upgrading to 215 |
| 13:11.41 | fsmithred | you running wheezy now? |
| 13:11.51 | student4 | fms: yes |
| 13:12.08 | fsmithred | wheezy to devuan jessie upgrades seem to be the easiest of all |
| 13:12.15 | fsmithred | assuming you're not using gnome |
| 13:12.32 | fbt | I've upgraded one of my VMs running wheezy to devuan jessie. |
| 13:12.35 | fbt | Smooth sailing |
| 13:12.55 | student4 | fms: you are correct, the first server I tested the upgrade I was simply amazed... I cannot stress how proud I was of this community's effort |
| 13:13.26 | fsmithred | I'm guessing it's smoother than wheezy to debian jessie upgrade |
| 13:13.31 | student4 | fms: I will start upgrading the other production servers within the next few months... |
| 13:14.28 | student4 | fms: if I was to pin and not upgrade udevd from wheezy, do you believe I would see breakage elsewhere on the system? |
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| 13:17.11 | DusXMT | I wonder about one thing though... Jessie is an LTS release, but what will happen once Debian stops releasing security updates for their Jessie? |
| 13:18.42 | fsmithred | that might depend on how many devs we pick up by then. |
| 13:22.26 | student4 | I thought we would always be able to leaverage debian lts for all non-systemd packages |
| 13:23.15 | student4 | is there discussions on extending devuan lts beyond debian's? |
| 13:26.53 | fsmithred | the idea of extending support beyond debian has been mentioned, but there hasn't been much discussion. |
| 13:27.43 | fsmithred | as things are now, I'd say it will not happen unless people show up to do the work. The devs are already stretched thin. |
| 13:28.11 | fsmithred | I guess you haven't been here long, but you will notice that things happen slowly. |
| 13:28.40 | fsmithred | we got jessie out the door just before debian moved her to oldstable. |
| 13:29.34 | student4 | fsm: :) extended support is a novell idea... but had never crossed my mind, DusXMT is the one that mentioned. |
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| 13:30.22 | DusXMT | I merely expressed my curiosity :) |
| 13:31.24 | student4 | on the subject of holding back udevd on wheezy; on these system according to ps it allocated 21MB virtual and 1MB resident ram, on Devuan and on Debian Jessie is 46MB and 4-5MB resident ram |
| 13:32.23 | student4 | seems like udev 215 is doing coffefe and weather forecast updates |
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| 13:34.50 | fsmithred | huh? weather? |
| 13:35.52 | student4 | silly joke.. |
| 13:36.02 | student4 | binary size on wheezy, 150kb.... on devuan 255kb, on strech 455kb |
| 13:36.29 | fsmithred | like I said... takes time to eat the whole thing |
| 13:36.30 | student4 | devuan 295kb |
| 13:36.49 | fsmithred | there is/was a problem with xfce4-weather-plugin. That's why I asked. |
| 13:38.13 | student4 | fsm: I know, I am not whipping here... I just want to know if I would be of any help if I volunteered to test holding back upgrade of wheezy udevd during the devuan upgrade and see if any issues come up |
| 13:38.35 | student4 | of if ppl been there done that and not gonna work... |
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| 13:42.56 | student4 | 5X more RAM and 3X the binary size for the same udevd its a bitter pill to swallow... unless udev is doubling my usb stick storage size and incresing my usb camera resolution, I believe we have a clear case of lennart inflation |
| 13:43.25 | student4 | ill give it a shot on the hold back and report... thanks |
| 13:44.37 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 13:44.52 | fsmithred | xserver-xorg-core in jessie depends on libudev1 (>= 183) |
| 13:45.11 | fsmithred | if wheezy has 175, that won't work |
| 13:45.32 | fsmithred | there may be other incompatibilities, too. |
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| 13:46.35 | student4 | ok, ill hit the change log and see if we could patch easily |
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| 13:55.16 | student4 | f... Key Sievers made 61 changes just on 175 to 176, lol |
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| 13:59.11 | student4 | "In 2014 Linus Torvalds banned him from Linux kernel development, claiming that he was creating bugs and not solving them" ... that explains the 5x ram increase |
| 13:59.53 | fsmithred | gotta go. bbl. |
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| 16:50.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | !poettering |
| 16:50.04 | infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal |
| 17:13.07 | student4 | friends, I've built eudev... I was wondering, how to apt-get purge udev without triggering it autoremoval for kernel, initramfs and pretty much clearing out the system |
| 17:14.37 | student4 | ive "ln -s /usr/local/sbin/udevd /sbin/udevd" and same for udevadm... that way I did not have to change /etc/init.d/udev |
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| 17:16.34 | KenKasumi | h |
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| 17:19.07 | kluh | afternoon |
| 17:19.35 | KenKasumi | hi |
| 17:19.47 | *** part/#devuan kluh (507531b3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.117.49.179) |
| 17:20.16 | golinux | Hi newcomers |
| 17:20.26 | KenKasumi | Hi |
| 17:21.05 | student4 | Hi |
| 17:21.13 | KenKasumi | Wondering if this space somehow working |
| 17:21.23 | KenKasumi | quite "silent" in here |
| 17:21.25 | golinux | kluh set a record for a driveby |
| 17:21.46 | golinux | A lot of folks are on holiday |
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| 17:21.52 | KenKasumi | see |
| 17:23.01 | KenKasumi | devuan project going on well? |
| 17:23.14 | student4 | So, initramfs-tools and live-boot-initiramfs-tools have a dependency on "udev" ... I have removed it with dpkg -r --force-depends "udev". I was wondering if the change to eudevd would have any impact on my initramfs |
| 17:24.38 | golinux | Well, that's one that I cannot answer. At least one person who could is working and another sleeping |
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| 17:26.17 | KenKasumi | golinux u where answering mine or students question? |
| 17:27.34 | Evilham | student4's :) |
| 17:27.56 | Evilham | devuan is alive and kicking, just August in between '^^ |
| 17:27.59 | golinux | Devuan is alive and kicking. |
| 17:28.15 | golinux | OMG. The same exact words?! |
| 17:28.17 | Evilham | (we didn't rehearse that) |
| 17:29.14 | golinux | KenKasumi: You're welcome to pitch in with your talents. |
| 17:29.29 | golinux | The more the merrier |
| 17:29.59 | KenKasumi | Happy about Devuan kicking! I switched to Devuan (at home) on 30 of june |
| 17:30.08 | golinux | Great! |
| 17:30.12 | student4 | nice |
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| 17:30.45 | aitor | bill-auger: sorry, i had a family mail today (my birthday, and also of my twin syster), and i've been away today |
| 17:31.05 | student4 | anybody seeing rsyslogd failed to be terminated/killed during shutdown? |
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| 17:34.16 | KenKasumi | Happy about this first contact. Gotta go now. Regards! Saluti! GrüÃe! |
| 17:34.54 | aitor | bill-auger: gnuinos means GNU in OS, that is: gnu in operating system |
| 17:35.20 | golinux | aitor: Your birthday? Happy, happy! |
| 17:35.46 | aitor | thanks |
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| 17:41.12 | aitor | so, the right pronunciations in english should be something like gnew in os |
| 17:41.32 | Evilham | zorionak =D |
| 17:41.42 | aitor | lol, eskerrik asko |
| 17:41.43 | bill-auger | it's your twin sister's birthday too? |
| 17:41.49 | aitor | yes |
| 17:41.53 | bill-auger | lol what a co-incidence |
| 17:41.57 | aitor | she was born before than me |
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| 17:42.26 | bill-auger | is she a computer nerd too? |
| 17:43.45 | aitor | she studied computer science, but she never used GNU/Linux |
| 17:43.52 | bill-auger | oh my |
| 17:44.06 | aitor | that's true |
| 17:47.46 | student4 | you guys, what is "/lib/udev/udev-finish" about... it vanished after I removed udev, but I cannot find any equivalent file under Wheezy or Strech |
| 17:48.28 | student4 | its called by /etc/init.d/udev-finish |
| 17:49.08 | aitor | here, in the basque country (i can't generalize to spain), if you want to access to a public job position, you need a tittle about microsoft office |
| 17:49.56 | student4 | msce ad spreadshitter specialist |
| 17:50.05 | aitor | that's pathetic |
| 17:50.09 | student4 | and |
| 17:50.12 | student4 | lol |
| 17:50.16 | golinux | student4: Have you searched the botbot logs for this channel or the dng mailist? |
| 17:50.30 | student4 | how, please teach |
| 17:50.44 | student4 | the bot, that is |
| 17:51.03 | student4 | I think /etc/init.d/udev-finish is a devuan particular... |
| 17:51.06 | Evilham | https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
| 17:51.11 | Evilham | for the IRC logs |
| 17:51.44 | Evilham | for the forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/search.php |
| 17:52.24 | Evilham | and here the mailing list info: https://devuan.org/os/contact#mailing-lists |
| 17:52.32 | Evilham | where you can also check each archive |
| 17:52.33 | golinux | https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/dng.en.html |
| 17:52.41 | Evilham | or that directly :) |
| 17:55.15 | student4 | aitor: seems your were the author of this https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160810.072205.206c6770.en.html |
| 17:56.00 | student4 | Evilhamon: the botlog seach clears out the search query eveytime we change the scope |
| 17:56.17 | student4 | and it seems the last week always get sticky selected when we chose another year or month |
| 17:56.18 | student4 | funky |
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| 17:57.04 | Evilham | yes, it's a bit funky, after you search, you can't jump to a specific timeoint |
| 17:57.08 | Evilham | you have to scroll :/ |
| 17:57.16 | Evilham | (had to deal with that myself a couple days ago) |
| 17:58.17 | golinux | Yes, you can jump! |
| 17:58.38 | aitor | student4: yes, this post is mine |
| 17:58.38 | golinux | Click on the date in the RH column!! |
| 17:58.39 | Evilham | you can? that didn't work for me :-D the search gets cancelled |
| 17:59.00 | Evilham | oh yes, but I think we meant both searching and jumping to a specific time |
| 17:59.59 | golinux | Oh, I didn't catch that. |
| 18:01.02 | golinux | I'm just grateful that we have a log at all. It provides answers that aren't available elsewhere. |
| 18:05.51 | student4 | aitor: cool, so on that email you say we should remove and disable udev-finish (in the context of installing vdev) but my question is, what problem was udev-finish trying to fix in the first place |
| 18:07.13 | student4 | aitor: another think, I am trying to find udev on devuan github and the only result which comes back is eudev from gentoo... so does that mean our udev package coming from debian jessie? |
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| 18:07.23 | student4 | s/think/thing |
| 18:09.03 | aitor | student4: that post is dated on 2016-08-10, and it's referred to an old packaging of vdev |
| 18:10.09 | aitor | here you are the newest one: |
| 18:10.11 | aitor | http://packages.gnuinos.org/unsystemd/ |
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| 18:11.14 | aitor | anyway, i'll rebuild it this month for gnuinos jessie |
| 18:15.11 | student4 | aitor: I see it now, udev on devuan comes from debian jessie... which is the only one that has the udev-finish hack, wheezy and scratch dont have that file it seems |
| 18:15.30 | student4 | cool, problem is solced |
| 18:17.29 | aitor | student4: an eudev packaging (a replacement for udev without systemd) already exists in TriOS |
| 18:18.49 | aitor | and also in AntiX: |
| 18:18.50 | aitor | https://github.com/antiX-Linux/eudev-antix/blob/master/debian/changelog |
| 18:19.38 | aitor | https://github.com/antiX-Linux/eudev-antix |
| 18:20.59 | aitor | brb |
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| 18:28.25 | bill-auger | not sure if you guys know about the not-systemd stuff that parabola has https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2017-June/005628.html |
| 18:28.48 | bill-auger | maybe some interesting stuff for you guys to see there - i dunno |
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| 18:31.13 | bill-auger | i think there more of it here too https://git.parabola.nu/~lukeshu/systemd.git/ |
| 18:34.30 | bill-auger | i dont know much about it other than if breaks off some systemd bits into independent components so they can use it with operrc to satisfy some programs that really want those parts of systemd |
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| 19:00.42 | student4 | !listkeys #devuan |
| 19:01.35 | student4 | !listkeys #devuan ~ |
| 19:02.11 | student4 | !listkeys #devuan systemd popularity |
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| 19:34.16 | hplar | /go/go |
| 19:34.23 | hplar | oops sorry |
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| 22:11.44 | greenjeans | mighty quiet in here |
| 22:11.49 | greenjeans | monday blues? |
| 22:13.57 | fsmithred | scroll up. looks like it was busy in here. I missed it. |
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| 22:48.22 | greenjeans | hey question, have not as yet tried the refractainstaller-gui 9.2.2 though I did grab a copy after you uploaded it a while back, are there any huge changes over the 9.2.1 package? |
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| 22:52.03 | greenjeans | Greenjeans and the mighty VUU armies are working on a 32-bit Vuu-do openbox, should be ready to upload this week. ;) |
| 23:00.10 | greenjeans | Okay, I gotta run, there's a carne asada taco and a Shiner Bock or two with my name on it, peace out! |
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