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| 03:43.23 | bozonius | sticks gold star on himself -- thank you golinux -- but accidentally stabs himself with it and dies |
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| 03:47.44 | golinux | bozonius: Nooooo! This place would be very quiet without you. :) |
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| 04:06.40 | Carmen | hi |
| 04:06.52 | Carmen | _systemd_is_evil, that is a fantastic username. |
| 04:14.23 | bozonius | (if you enjoy typing nicks, yes it is) |
| 04:14.58 | bozonius | golinux: It is hardly my fault if I talk a lot here. I am only reporting what I see. |
| 04:16.08 | fromport | is the forum very active ? do people ask questions/report "glitches" |
| 04:16.10 | fromport | ? |
| 04:19.09 | golinux | fromport: Yes. |
| 04:19.43 | golinux | But everything is a little slow atm. Still in summer mode. |
| 04:22.51 | fromport | is very impressed with devuan this far. running unstable and see updates come by almost every day. very impressive, keep up the good work devuan developers ! |
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| 05:12.03 | MDrights | Hi , am curious to ask, Refractasnapshot, and live-sdk, which do you prefer? |
| 05:14.19 | MDrights | and live-build |
| 05:20.05 | gnarface | refracta is easy |
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| 06:02.40 | MDrights | gnarface, thanks for responding ) |
| 06:03.33 | MDrights | And....anyone knows about some mirros of Devuan's repo ? I can hardly find them from the official websites....( |
| 06:04.51 | golinux | I see over 40 options on devuan.org index page |
| 06:06.57 | golinux | MDrights: ^^^ |
| 06:09.06 | MDrights | golinux, aren't those the download mirrors , not the repo mirror....? |
| 06:15.56 | golinux | My bad for misreading. There are no repo mirros yet. But several are in the works. |
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| 07:19.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | MDrights: repo mirrors are not exactly simple, due to: |
| 07:19.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 07:19.19 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 07:20.59 | MDrights | golinux, DocScrutinizer05 , I see...(thanks though ~ |
| 07:24.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I got to correct myself: repo mirrors are simple enough, but not standard as any other existing mirroring solution |
| 07:25.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik it needs control over the webserver (apache) rewrite rules in mirror |
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| 07:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | also afaik a 2 tier architecture is planned: 1st level mirrors get push-synced, 2nd level pull-syncs from 1st |
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| 08:09.24 | aitor | moin |
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| 08:46.50 | detha | DocScrutinizer05: do you happen to know who is working on that? |
| 08:48.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | not exactly |
| 08:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask parazyd |
| 08:48.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | or Centurion-Dan |
| 08:48.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | or jaromil |
| 08:49.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | or KatolaZ |
| 08:50.08 | parazyd | what's up? |
| 08:50.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | who's working on repo mirror implementation? |
| 08:50.52 | parazyd | KatolaZ needs to setup a httpd and we need to build a new devuan-keyring with the new key |
| 08:51.02 | parazyd | should be ready throughout this week |
| 08:51.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 08:51.42 | detha | That sounds promising. That means I may eventually be able to move some of the lab stuff to devuan |
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| 10:23.32 | aitor | hi, rsyslog is not instalable in ascii because it depends on libjson-c2 and liblognorm2 and neither of them exist |
| 10:24.16 | aitor | the names of these packages changed to libjson-c3 and liblognorm5, respectively |
| 10:25.22 | aitor | please, change both dependencies, because live-build (or debootstrap) doesn't work for me in ascii |
| 10:37.52 | aitor | all the packaging configuration stuff of live-build is related with chroot and binary, tasks which are carried out at a late stage of bootstrap |
| 10:38.02 | aitor | http://complete.sisudoc.org/manual/html/live-manual/customizing-package-installation.en.html |
| 10:41.28 | aitor | need to reboot |
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| 10:49.25 | fsmithred | aitor, use rsyslog from jessie-backports for ascii. Download the deb and put it in the chroot_packages dir. (or wherever debs go) |
| 10:52.24 | fsmithred | or else use syslog-ng or busybox-syslogd |
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| 10:54.18 | aitor | hi fsmithred, now i'm trying with live-sdk using the simplest blend "devuan-live" |
| 10:54.34 | fsmithred | hi |
| 10:54.51 | fsmithred | you saw my note? |
| 10:55.26 | aitor | i'm looking at your howto in dev1g: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=551 |
| 10:55.37 | fsmithred | oh, ok |
| 10:56.02 | fsmithred | just after you left... <fsmithred> aitor, use rsyslog from jessie-backports for ascii. Download the deb and put it in the chroot_packages dir. (or wherever debs go) |
| 10:56.02 | fsmithred | <fsmithred> or else use syslog-ng or busybox-syslogd |
| 10:56.19 | aitor | huh! the filesystem.squasfsh has only 16,4 Mb |
| 10:56.34 | fsmithred | sounds like just a boot menu |
| 10:56.38 | fsmithred | oh |
| 10:56.44 | fsmithred | no, not in the squash |
| 10:57.04 | fsmithred | anything useful in the output? |
| 10:57.31 | aitor | i downloaded your jessie-oblx |
| 10:58.08 | aitor | i can add the d-i to the blend |
| 10:58.24 | aitor | i'll try it |
| 10:58.29 | fsmithred | ok |
| 10:59.19 | aitor | how can i reverse the situation? |
| 10:59.59 | fsmithred | reverse what? |
| 11:00.07 | fsmithred | remove d-i from the blend? |
| 11:01.11 | aitor | no, the content generated by: |
| 11:01.39 | aitor | load devuan <arch> <blend_name> |
| 11:01.42 | aitor | and: |
| 11:01.49 | aitor | build_iso_dist |
| 11:02.14 | fsmithred | sudo rm -r tmp/* |
| 11:02.15 | aitor | something like lb --purge in live-build |
| 11:02.19 | aitor | ok |
| 11:02.27 | fsmithred | you could get more selective |
| 11:02.45 | fsmithred | remove tmp/devuan... |
| 11:02.51 | fsmithred | and keep the bootstrap tarball |
| 11:03.07 | fsmithred | second run will go a little faster |
| 11:03.20 | fsmithred | but you may get some debconf dialogs to answer |
| 11:03.37 | aitor | is it possible to use several blends with blend_map=( ... )? |
| 11:03.44 | fsmithred | why is squashfs so small? |
| 11:04.05 | aitor | i still don't knowo |
| 11:04.09 | aitor | know* |
| 11:04.10 | fsmithred | yes, you can have several blends and call the one you want |
| 11:04.30 | fsmithred | check logs and terminal output |
| 11:04.58 | fsmithred | scroll up a little to see the output for mksquashfs |
| 11:05.07 | fsmithred | did you run out of hard drive space? |
| 11:05.37 | aitor | there is nothing strange in the cmd output |
| 11:06.56 | aitor | Creating 4.0 filesystem on binary/live/filesystem.squashfs, block size 131072 |
| 11:07.14 | aitor | Exportable Squashfs 4.0 filesystem, xz compressed, data block size 131072 |
| 11:07.39 | aitor | Filesystem size 15982.67 Kbytes (15.61 Mbytes) |
| 11:08.08 | fsmithred | look in the bootstrap dir and make sure there's a full filesystem |
| 11:08.20 | fsmithred | unless you already deleted it |
| 11:09.08 | aitor | i still haven't deleted anything |
| 11:11.34 | aitor | there are some .debs: refracta, firmware... |
| 11:11.53 | aitor | the empty folders boot, sys, proc... |
| 11:12.06 | fsmithred | usr? |
| 11:12.11 | fsmithred | etc? |
| 11:12.19 | aitor | the usr folder containig yad and some refracta scripts |
| 11:12.20 | fsmithred | should all be there ready to get squashed |
| 11:12.50 | aitor | no etc |
| 11:13.11 | aitor | there are also the dev folder and the home |
| 11:13.15 | fsmithred | check logs. um, thirdstage.log or something like that |
| 11:13.37 | aitor | the log folder is empty |
| 11:13.57 | fsmithred | what live-sdk are you using? |
| 11:14.07 | fsmithred | most recent, or older? |
| 11:14.30 | aitor | https://github.com/parazyd/live-sdk.git |
| 11:15.11 | fsmithred | when did you get it? |
| 11:15.50 | aitor | today |
| 11:15.55 | aitor | the code looks nice |
| 11:15.56 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 11:16.02 | fsmithred | yeah, he writes good code |
| 11:16.07 | aitor | yes |
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| 11:16.59 | aitor | let me play with it and we'll talk in a few hours, see you later |
| 11:17.15 | fsmithred | try the april version |
| 11:17.34 | fsmithred | I can't get the newest one to run, either |
| 11:17.45 | aitor | ok, where is it, in gitlab? |
| 11:17.54 | fsmithred | no. same place |
| 11:17.58 | fsmithred | I'm trying to find it now. |
| 11:18.55 | aitor | there are no tags in git |
| 11:19.25 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm seeing that. I think there were some a couple weeks ago. |
| 11:20.04 | aitor | devuan-sdk, maybe? |
| 11:20.13 | aitor | i also downloaded it |
| 11:20.22 | fsmithred | I think I'm using it the way it was April 23. |
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| 11:27.35 | aitor | this is yours: https://github.com/fsmithred/example-live-sdk |
| 11:27.49 | fsmithred | yeah, don't use that. It's not up to date |
| 11:28.19 | fsmithred | I'm looking at my build dirs now, figuring out what to exclude to make it small enough to send you a tarball |
| 11:29.04 | aitor | ok, thanks and bbl |
| 11:44.17 | aitor | Oops... |
| 11:44.42 | aitor | lib/libdevuansdk/extra/debootstrap/debootstrap disappears !! |
| 11:44.48 | aitor | see you later |
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| 12:25.08 | Hum | curseofwar shows ansicodes or similiar: "6H.;9H" I need a better reportbug |
| 12:26.05 | Hum | I don't know the package: curseofwar or urxvt. reportbug: If you don't know what package the bug is in, please contact debian-user@lists.debian.org for assistance. |
| 12:26.27 | Hum | should I really ask the debian-user@? |
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| 14:32.40 | ibispi_ | hello, everyone, my friend has this error happen to her when she tries to run some program via wine https://pastebin.com/aQghDr5u one of the things we've found on the internet is that she'd have to install 'lib32-mesa-libgl', but that seems to be unavailable as a package for devuan, what do we do? |
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| 15:01.13 | fsmithred | ibispi_, install libgl1-mesa-dri |
| 15:01.52 | ibispi_ | hey fsmithred, thanks! |
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| 15:29.06 | EHeM | What are the status of mipsel and arm64 ports? Any plans for Devuan/kFreeBSD? |
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| 19:13.03 | bozonius | gnarface, et al: I've decided to back out the openrc (which was a mistake anyway) and just move forward with sysv-rc |
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| 19:13.28 | bozonius | this eliminates a lot of support issues and allows me to move forward with the porting of omv |
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| 19:14.04 | bozonius | I really don't want to get into that whole morass of openrc and where they are headed, or even getting a current spec |
| 19:14.32 | bozonius | I was able to write a systemctl shim like the one I wrote for openrc, so no problems there. |
| 19:15.47 | p4cman | and where is openrc headed to? |
| 19:16.15 | bozonius | I, for one, don't know. |
| 19:16.49 | bozonius | I can't even get a full spec on the current implementation. But for the moment, I dont need to worry with respect to the omv port |
| 19:17.20 | bozonius | I'm just posting here to let folks in the channel know that I've decided to give that up for this port |
| 19:20.10 | gnu_srs | bozonius: What version of openrc did you install? I don't think you need any systemctl shim for either sysv-rc or openrc. Does your sources.list contain debian?? |
| 19:21.04 | bozonius | gnu_srs you are late to the party. You see, omv v3 is on Debian with systemd, so the omv package itself is using systemctl calls. |
| 19:21.15 | bozonius | so, yes, it needs a shim |
| 19:21.23 | bozonius | (just for omv, though) |
| 19:22.37 | gnu_srs | if omv needs systemd, there is something wrong with devuan setup. It should not be installable from devuan |
| 19:23.05 | gnu_srs | So how did you get that package? |
| 19:23.05 | bozonius | omv's package has a dependency (I kid you not) of systemd |
| 19:23.30 | bozonius | so I had to remove that dependency from the package. Trouble is, the application ware is full of systemd calls |
| 19:23.34 | gnu_srs | then you must have debian repos in your sources.list |
| 19:23.57 | gnu_srs | Are you building from source or not? |
| 19:24.10 | bozonius | so to simplify porting, I repackaged it to exclude the systemd dependency, and included the shim |
| 19:24.21 | bozonius | it's mostly js and php (web app) |
| 19:25.20 | bozonius | the port works, and it works just as well as the systemd (Debian jessie) implemetation |
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| 19:26.06 | gnu_srs | apt-cache search/shoiwsrc omv in debian does not show a source called omv?? |
| 19:26.27 | bozonius | openmediavault, sorry. It's a long name, so I abbreviate. |
| 19:27.26 | gnu_srs | apt-cache search openmediavault: <empty> |
| 19:27.39 | bozonius | I think you need to add a repo |
| 19:27.48 | bozonius | why, are you interested in this project? |
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| 19:28.42 | gnu_srs | I don't even know what it does. But is is not in debian main contrib or non-free |
| 19:29.04 | bozonius | it's a nas, kind of like opennas |
| 19:29.15 | bozonius | opennas is based on berkeley I think |
| 19:29.27 | bozonius | omv is debian (and now, on devuan) |
| 19:29.50 | gnu_srs | Nevertheless, it does not seem to be packaged for debian (and not devuan either) |
| 19:29.52 | bozonius | try openmediavault.org if you are curious |
| 19:30.07 | bozonius | as I said, you have to get th package from a diferent repo |
| 19:31.23 | bozonius | it is generally distributed as an appliance, so you can download the iso from their site and install it, maybe on hardware, maybe in a VM |
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| 19:31.41 | gnu_srs | I still don't understand why you complain about openrc referring to a package not available in debian?? |
| 19:31.51 | bozonius | I didn't |
| 19:32.01 | bozonius | openrc has nothing to do with it, actually. |
| 19:32.11 | bozonius | forget openrc. That's now a dead issue |
| 19:32.18 | gnu_srs | ok, then. |
| 19:32.53 | bozonius | the port consists of a working systemctl shim for the omv web app which has embedded systemctl calls |
| 19:33.19 | bozonius | the shim approach is an easy fix, and this way, I don't need to support the app itself |
| 19:35.49 | ibispi_ | hey guys |
| 19:36.45 | ibispi_ | some time today my friend had this problem https://pastebin.com/aQghDr5u and fsmithred said that she installs libgl1-mesa-dri |
| 19:36.57 | ibispi_ | but it didn't work, the error is still the same |
| 19:37.04 | ibispi_ | why would this be? |
| 19:38.04 | *** join/#devuan aml (~vu@dslb-088-064-112-082.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 19:39.07 | fsmithred | ibispi_, the error message says some files are missing. Did you check to see if they exist? They should have been provided by the package you installed. |
| 19:39.35 | bozonius | fsmithred: ldconfig? I'm not sure about X11 modules, though. |
| 19:39.40 | ibispi_ | ok, we'll check if they exist |
| 19:39.43 | fsmithred | huh? |
| 19:39.51 | fsmithred | no - two .so files |
| 19:40.27 | bozonius | I thought they might be modules |
| 19:41.50 | fsmithred | i965_dri.so and swrast_dri.so |
| 19:42.08 | fsmithred | apt-file says they are in libgl1-mesa-dri |
| 19:42.20 | fsmithred | but maybe there's a -dev package for that |
| 19:45.02 | fsmithred | I've got them in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/dri/ (not sure where they are in i386) |
| 19:45.16 | aml | /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/dri/swrast_dri.so can be found |
| 19:45.28 | aml | still searching for i965_dri.so |
| 19:46.37 | fsmithred | brb |
| 19:47.22 | ibispi_ | another thing, not sure if relevant, but we're running this program via wine, does that mean that we'd have to have this drivers on the wine drive? |
| 19:50.17 | *** join/#devuan Ryushin (chris@2001:470:4b:38f:777::876c) |
| 19:51.24 | aml | when looking into the path /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/dri/swrast_dri.so, then there is a i965_dri.so file, 6,9mb |
| 19:51.33 | aml | *-swrast_dri.so |
| 19:52.13 | aml | so actually both needed files are present, but Wine does not find i965_dri |
| 19:52.37 | aml | console output: libGL error: unable to load driver: i965_dri.so |
| 19:54.45 | aml | Nevermind, I will better try a more specific, general-use distro |
| 19:55.14 | aml | but many thanks for friendly offering your time and expertise, highly appreciated |
| 19:55.27 | aml | true Linux spirit! :) |
| 19:56.17 | fsmithred | does it work in debian? |
| 19:56.27 | fsmithred | if so, it should work in devuan. |
| 19:56.43 | fsmithred | I don't know wine well enough to help with it. |
| 19:56.47 | aml | idk, I will test, and report back in case of success |
| 19:57.47 | aml | that's fine, thanks you still, fsmithred |
| 19:58.25 | fsmithred | maybe there's a wine package that needs to be installed. |
| 19:58.42 | aml | yes, I will look into that a bit |
| 19:58.45 | fsmithred | there's a pretty long list of them. 'aptitude search wine' |
| 19:58.58 | aml | best would be to get along without Wine |
| 19:59.08 | fsmithred | what do you want to do? |
| 19:59.23 | fsmithred | (what windows program do you use?) |
| 19:59.39 | aml | It's just a hobbyist game engine, Adventure Game Studio |
| 19:59.44 | aml | no big deal really |
| 19:59.49 | aml | it's not mission critically |
| 20:00.06 | fsmithred | gnarface might know something ^^^ |
| 20:00.24 | ibispi_ | ags is not a problem, we managed to run ags |
| 20:00.39 | ibispi_ | but she can't run games compiled with ags > something graphic driver related |
| 20:01.21 | fsmithred | what graphics card is it? |
| 20:01.43 | ibispi_ | aml^ |
| 20:01.56 | aml | sec looking it up |
| 20:02.09 | fsmithred | lspci | grep VGA |
| 20:03.36 | aml | 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 18) |
| 20:03.39 | aml | 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GT218M [GeForce 310M] (rev a2) |
| 20:03.49 | aml | thx for the commandline snippet |
| 20:04.06 | aml | it's an old IdeaPad |
| 20:04.09 | fsmithred | intel onboard plus separate nvidia card? |
| 20:04.18 | aml | apparently |
| 20:04.21 | fsmithred | and you're using the nvidia? |
| 20:04.35 | fsmithred | which one did you plug the monitor into? |
| 20:04.45 | aml | uhm, it's a notebook, |
| 20:05.02 | aml | I think it's just the Integrated Graphics Controller one |
| 20:05.58 | *** join/#devuan ebrasca (~user@host-198.58.elzappero.net) |
| 20:06.07 | aml | feels sorry to use even more of precious dev time |
| 20:06.33 | fsmithred | I'll bet you're using the nvidia |
| 20:06.53 | fsmithred | and might benefit from using the proprietary driver |
| 20:06.58 | fsmithred | but that's a guess |
| 20:07.10 | fsmithred | debian wiki has instructions |
| 20:07.20 | aml | I see, nice, I loook it up |
| 20:07.45 | aml | actually, very nice |
| 20:07.51 | fsmithred | lspci -k |
| 20:08.05 | fsmithred | will show all your hardware and the drivers being used |
| 20:09.17 | fsmithred | "all" is a slight exaggeration. |
| 20:11.17 | aml | I can post the two relevant entries |
| 20:11.33 | fsmithred | ok |
| 20:11.53 | aml | 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 18) |
| 20:11.56 | aml | Subsystem: Lenovo Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller |
| 20:11.59 | aml | Kernel driver in use: i915 |
| 20:12.01 | aml | Kernel modules: i915 |
| 20:12.25 | aml | and |
| 20:12.26 | aml | 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GT218M [GeForce 310M] (rev a2) |
| 20:12.29 | aml | Subsystem: Lenovo GT218M [GeForce 310M] |
| 20:12.32 | aml | Kernel driver in use: nouveau |
| 20:12.34 | aml | Kernel modules: nouveau |
| 20:13.20 | fsmithred | I don't understand how that works. How many monitor jacks are on this laptop? |
| 20:13.49 | aml | looks with bold eyes |
| 20:14.03 | fsmithred | oh, maybe i do get it |
| 20:14.03 | aml | Sorry, I'm also not sure |
| 20:14.23 | fsmithred | intel for the laptop screen, nvidia for external monitor or hdmi |
| 20:14.28 | fsmithred | or some other combination |
| 20:14.43 | aml | yes, that sounds reasonable |
| 20:15.28 | fsmithred | search for a debian solution and it will most likely work in devuan |
| 20:15.34 | aml | ok, will do |
| 20:15.41 | fsmithred | good luck |
| 20:15.45 | aml | but thanks, I learned quite something |
| 20:16.07 | aml | Devuan rocks |
| 20:16.16 | fsmithred | :) |
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| 20:37.00 | *** part/#devuan aml (~vu@dslb-088-064-112-082.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
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| 20:45.18 | *** join/#devuan aitor (~aitor@171.85-84-183.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es) |
| 20:45.39 | aitor | fsmithred: live-sdk worked fine |
| 20:45.48 | fsmithred | cool |
| 20:46.03 | aitor | i like its design |
| 20:46.37 | fsmithred | I found it pretty easy to figure out what's going on |
| 20:47.04 | fsmithred | and where to change stuff |
| 20:47.51 | aitor | give me a few minutes, i'm with my father |
| 20:47.59 | fsmithred | ok |
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| 21:01.30 | aitor | hi again |
| 21:04.10 | aitor | i was using $PWD instead of $R in my script for devuan-installer |
| 21:04.25 | aitor | i'll replace it |
| 21:08.35 | aitor | therre are two options in your devuan-live blend: uefi or bios |
| 21:09.17 | aitor | how can i configure it? setting the mkefi to "yes or "no" in the config file? |
| 21:09.39 | fsmithred | yes |
| 21:10.38 | fsmithred | looks like you need to set grubversion, too |
| 21:10.45 | aitor | there is another one: "all" |
| 21:11.04 | fsmithred | should be same as devuan-live.blend |
| 21:11.40 | fsmithred | yeah, same. There's a test for mkefi yes/no in the xorriso command |
| 21:11.58 | fsmithred | you don't have to do anything in the .blend file for uefi/bios |
| 21:12.08 | aitor | oh, yes, depending on the value of mkefi, the version of grub will be grub-efi-$arch or grub-pc |
| 21:12.33 | fsmithred | oh did I make that automatic? |
| 21:12.58 | aitor | nope |
| 21:13.06 | fsmithred | ok, yeah, I'm looking now |
| 21:13.22 | fsmithred | oh, I don't want that to be automatic |
| 21:13.40 | fsmithred | you can make uefi-bootable iso and have grub-pc installed |
| 21:14.10 | aitor | then, it has its sense :) |
| 21:14.36 | aitor | fsmithred: it will not be difficult to add a blend for devuan-installer |
| 21:14.37 | fsmithred | yeah, I made refracta isos that way. grub-efi debs are included if you need them. Same iso does both uefi and bios install. |
| 21:14.46 | fsmithred | ok |
| 21:15.06 | fsmithred | ozi did add it, and it mostly worked. You saw that and fixed some of the issues. |
| 21:16.36 | aitor | i can't find code related with d-i in live-sdk, only in devuan-sdk |
| 21:17.01 | fsmithred | it's not in the one I sent you |
| 21:17.07 | aitor | ok |
| 21:17.23 | fsmithred | but I did send you the blend and config for including d-i a few weeks ago |
| 21:18.13 | aitor | yes, i know, but this is my first attempt with live-sdk :( |
| 21:19.33 | *** join/#devuan alph4 (uid189461@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heoipdyqqgvwfbji) |
| 21:19.33 | aitor | i downloaded all the .udeb packages from jessie an ascii this afternoon, and i'll build my own repository |
| 21:20.28 | aitor | debmirror will download them from this repo |
| 21:20.48 | fsmithred | right now I'm working on the cli refractainstaller to do uefi installs. |
| 21:21.13 | fsmithred | I think I'm almost done enough to test it. |
| 21:21.28 | aitor | good! |
| 21:24.31 | aitor | i'll also include cpio as a dependency for the customization of the banner and the appearance of d-i |
| 21:24.40 | aitor | and the preseed.cfg file |
| 21:28.13 | aitor | the banner had been removed from rootskel-gtk |
| 21:28.26 | EHeM | One thing I very much liked with Debian is https://packages.debian.org/<package> would tell you about the named package. |
| 21:39.30 | aitor | EHeM: really all the features of packages.debian.org..., often i wonder which software they are using for that |
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| 21:47.21 | aitor | i'm reading the latest posts in the DNG mailing list |
| 21:47.41 | aitor | they are talking about a new Gtk theme for ascii |
| 21:48.10 | aitor | hi, g4570n |
| 21:49.47 | g4570n | hi, aitor :) |
| 21:49.54 | aitor | hola |
| 21:50.11 | g4570n | que tal? |
| 21:50.45 | aitor | bien |
| 21:51.59 | aitor | he visitado hace un rato #devuan-mx, pero sólo estaba tarbz2 |
| 21:51.59 | g4570n | aitor: I'm playing with the urxvt configuration in devuan |
| 21:52.08 | aitor | good |
| 21:52.21 | aitor | i still didn't try it |
| 21:53.25 | g4570n | aitor: I'm already in #devuan-mx, in case you want to speak in Spanish |
| 21:54.08 | aitor | ok |
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| 22:25.51 | gnarface | fsmithred: the only other guess i have about that wine issue aml and ibispi_ were having is maybe they only had the 64-bit versions of the intel opengl/glx driver. stuff in wine often needs multi-arch enabled and the 32-bit version installed too (of the opengl driver as well as several other key mesa things) i think that can cause the same basic error |
| 22:26.33 | ibispi_ | gnarface: she just recently managed to run the program, so it's ok |
| 22:26.36 | ibispi_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.53 | gnarface | oh, good to know. any idea what fixed it? |
| 22:26.58 | ibispi_ | idk let me ask her |
| 22:27.13 | gnarface | since multi-arch isn't enabled by default on Debian/Devuan it's a common complication |
| 22:28.03 | gnarface | it's a common stumbling block for Windows users especially who are surprised to find out Microsoft blithely ships 32-bit software with all their fancy 64-bit computers |
| 22:28.17 | fsmithred | they were initially looking for a 32-bit lib |
| 22:28.36 | gnarface | some Wine environments need both to work properly (also Steam for Linux) |
| 22:30.02 | ibispi_ | she says: <aml> I updated the repos to unstable, and installed practically all packages anew |
| 22:30.21 | fsmithred | oh |
| 22:30.22 | gnarface | eh, well that will do it |
| 22:30.38 | fsmithred | she has only ceres in sources now? |
| 22:32.04 | ibispi_ | i think so |
| 22:32.22 | gnarface | ibispi_: we're leery of magic fixes. there's a lot of fixes that can make bigger messes in the long run |
| 22:32.41 | ibispi_ | ok |
| 22:35.24 | fsmithred | upgrade from jessie to ascii and ceres is not smooth and easy right now. She may have a mix of stable/testing/unstable |
| 22:35.57 | fsmithred | just testing/unstable mix is ok, but with stable in there could be trouble |
| 22:36.27 | gnarface | there's also a strong influence in times like these to "just grab the driver package from [some ubuntu 3rd party PPA]" which is almost always a catastrophe in the making during the next attempt at a clean upgrade |
| 22:36.42 | EHeM | aitor: Given how those features have been there 15-20+ years, it is likely something pretty simple, just need to figure out where the scripts are and grab them. |
| 22:37.47 | fsmithred | check jessie-backports if newer versions are needed |
| 22:43.02 | EHeM | I'm sure there is a good reason why using "stable" in /etc/apt/sources.list is considered deprecated, but at the same time it is quite handy; using "stable" means you quickly become aware of when updates are available, and means you don't have to update the file when you upgrade. |
| 22:44.46 | aitor | EHeM, sorry, i've been kidnapped in #devuan-mx, lol |
| 22:45.41 | *** join/#devuan matlock (~matlock@user-24-214-145-29.knology.net) |
| 22:45.58 | gnarface | EHeM: the issue with that is, it causes a basic race condition. when stable is changed to a new release, some of the packages in that release may have only been tested with the most recent versions of packages from the previous stable, which you may have skipped accidentally if you didn't update&upgrade, and the preinst/postinst hooks may possibly make invalid assumptions - i know it seems like a slim chance but all the |
| 22:45.58 | gnarface | package scripts are a very fragile web of carefully tested behaviors at corresponding release versions, only to the degree they're expected to really overlap feasibly... |
| 22:46.34 | gnarface | EHeM: so basically, if you update& upgrade fast enough, with luck, using "stable" instead of the release name keyword will usually work, but it's advised against because it's known to break upgrades in ways that can't be feasibly predicted or tested for |
| 22:47.22 | gnarface | EHeM: (and frankly, in practice, succeeding at this reasonably safely would require running "apt-get update" more often than is really advised) |
| 22:47.26 | koollman | I never use stable, controlling when you want to dist-upgrade is important |
| 22:48.07 | koollman | and the typical step before dist-upgrade is 'update + upgrade' for the oldstable |
| 22:48.29 | koollman | which would not work if you use stable. the upgrade would be the beginning of almost a dist-upgrade :) |
| 22:48.53 | EHeM | gnarface: In order to miss a release like that you'd have to update less than once a year; which is insane given the need for security updates. |
| 22:48.53 | koollman | now, if you upgrade every day it does not matter. but it's rarely the case |
| 22:49.13 | koollman | EHeM: there could be a bugfix at the worst possible time :) |
| 22:49.37 | koollman | there are publications of packages more than once a year :) |
| 22:49.47 | gnarface | bozonius: (sorry to hear you gave up on it, but i guess if it works right using sysv-rc but not openrc that's pretty damning evidence in favor of it being a problem with openrc) |
| 22:50.22 | EHeM | koollman: I've noticed. |
| 22:50.52 | gnarface | bozonius: (i still feel someone needs to protect and preserve basic LSB header behavior as a neutral third party before this becomes a tug-of-war standard) |
| 22:50.52 | koollman | I'm actually reading documentations for aptly right now, to have more controls about when packages are really upgraded in my environment :) |
| 22:51.40 | koollman | with the idea of upgrading always from my local mirrors/repo, and using snapshots to make sure changes happen in a controlled way, and are first tested on a less important subset of servers |
| 22:51.46 | EHeM | Problem is while breaking usage of "stable" protects a few people who update/upgrade less than once a year, it is a distinct pain for people who want to avoid modifying sources.list and *do* bother to keep up to date. |
| 22:52.41 | gnarface | EHeM: you're free to do as you please, i'm just telling you why we all learned to stop doing it that way |
| 22:53.00 | gnarface | you practically have to update&upgrade twice a day at minimum |
| 22:53.28 | gnarface | and even then it doesn't completely reduce the chances of bad behavior if you don't pay close attention to the package versions coming in so that you notice when they change releases on you |
| 22:53.43 | EHeM | wonders if/when he will get around to implementing the magical include directive for init. |
| 22:53.56 | koollman | and even if you keep up to date, maybe you want ot read the release not before your morning upgrade that will break stuff :) |
| 22:54.03 | koollman | *release notes |
| 22:54.05 | gnarface | but you're right, it's far more of a risk for people who just forget to upgrade and only do it once a year or so |
| 22:54.26 | koollman | "oh, well, apache is upgraded and now it will not start. have fun" :) |
| 22:54.51 | EHeM | Is bad behavior for some people reason to *break* a behavior valued by other people? |
| 22:54.53 | koollman | (and that was during a controlled upgrade, with absolute latest version before :) ) |
| 22:58.32 | gnarface | EHeM: don't mistake us for people who can do anything about it. we didn't build the mountain. think of us more like guides just trying to keep less travellers from dying on the way to the top of it. |
| 22:59.01 | EHeM | Another benefit is you don't need to know magic keywords (release names) when you decide to go ahead and upgrade. |
| 22:59.26 | EHeM | gnarface: I was hoping you were in position to pass along opinions. :-) |
| 23:00.46 | gnarface | i have opinions but they're not worth anything if people don't heed them |
| 23:01.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | build a package "auto-upgrade-stable"! |
| 23:02.04 | gnu_srs | gnarface: A package not even packaged by debian is not a reason to complain on openrc. You have to provide sane init scripts for every new package. |
| 23:02.34 | EHeM | seems to recall seeing a package along the lines of a cron `auto-upgrade-stable`. |
| 23:03.30 | gnarface | gnu_srs: i brought up the possibility it was a problem with his package script several times. he knew it was a possibility. the problem was that he became frustrated trying to find a behavior that made both inits happy, when ostensibly they should both have been treating those LSB headers the same exact way |
| 23:04.43 | gnarface | gnu_srs: this does suggest there's a bigger problem than just the pedigree of his package. |
| 23:06.57 | gnarface | gnu_srs: if it was just something he pulled out of his ass that would be one thing, but he claimed it was a package that was previously in debian working fine, and it's default init script indeed worked fine with sysv but not openrc, which i realize is just hearsay and circumstantial evidence as far as i know, but it does further highlight potential problems if Devuan were to blindly switch the default init to openrc |
| 23:06.57 | gnarface | under the *mistaken* assumption they work the same where it matters |
| 23:07.46 | gnarface | gnu_srs: try to see the big picture before you just give the form-letter "not made here" response |
| 23:09.48 | gnarface | i'm sorry, that came out more hostile than i intended it to sound, but this is a serious issue and it shouldn't be trivialized |
| 23:10.44 | *** join/#devuan DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 23:10.50 | gnarface | nothing would make Debian fanatics more smug right now than to see our next release faceplant due to an ill-conceived init system switch |
| 23:11.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | fails to understand if sysvinit scripts are even supposed to work exactly same in unmodified version under openrc |
| 23:11.45 | gnu_srs | The more people testing openrc, the better of course. I really hope the people authorized to build packages fixes the problems to make it installable. |
| 23:11.45 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: also hearsay, i admit. maybe that was never openrc's intent. but if so, then the openrc advocates over here in OUR camp need to get aware of that fast. |
| 23:13.11 | gnu_srs | Until a proper bug on openrc has been filed, nothing can be acted on :( |
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| 23:14.46 | EHeM | So looks like stable-backports and stable-updates work, but stable-security is broken. |
| 23:14.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think there mist be a manpage or doc or at least reference implementation of a canonical openrc init script, right? |
| 23:14.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | must* |
| 23:16.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | and iirc/aiui the real problem was with insserv, or am I mistaken? |
| 23:16.34 | gnu_srs | Currently there is a Debian patch making openrc following the same rules as sysv-rc: Mainly LSB scripts. |
| 23:16.58 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc is probably a decent starting point (since it was written as a comparison to systemd and sysvinit) |
| 23:17.26 | gnu_srs | Rewriting all scripts according to gentoo standard is a major effort. |
| 23:17.56 | gnu_srs | You're welcome to provide patches :D |
| 23:18.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | muses about a generic "init script crosscompiler" |
| 23:19.01 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: https://github.com/jordansissel/pleaserun :) |
| 23:19.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean the info in there is often identical, just different representatiom. Or at very least one a subset of the other |
| 23:19.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | hey nice :-) |
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| 23:23.14 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: it seemed at least at face value to me to be the type of issue where parties maintaining omv and insserv were gonna argue and both blame the other party, and the outcome ends up accidentally deciding whether historical precedent has any weight on LSB header parsing behavior going forward |
| 23:24.12 | gnarface | my argument would by default be in favor of historical precedent rather than letting Gentoo decide standards on ANYTHING whatsoever |
| 23:24.34 | gnarface | but i have absolutely no authority in the matter so it's just another opinion that only carries as much weight as the people willing to carry it for me |
| 23:26.06 | gnarface | but i think bozonius's basic issue in bringing it up is the same as mine; it seems like the truth of this matter may invalidate a lot of misplaced loyalty in openrc |
| 23:26.17 | gnarface | so i think it's an important matter for Devuan to discuss officially |
| 23:26.28 | gnarface | light needs to be shined on THESE types of issues early rather than late |
| 23:26.53 | gnarface | the fix would be easy |
| 23:26.59 | gnarface | agreeing on where to fix it might not be |
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| 23:28.31 | gnarface | but yea, i think everyone should be able to easily see the sense in NOT forking ALL the init scripts over stupid stuff like this |
| 23:30.13 | *** join/#devuan uidzer0 (~uidzer0@2604:180:2:130d::dead:beef) |
| 23:45.43 | bozonius | gnarface: +1 |
| 23:46.34 | bozonius | I am actually relieved (now) that I chose to unwork openrc from my port. Partly to avoid lack of standardization with Devuan, but also to avoid the support pitfalls we discussed at length prior |
| 23:47.21 | bozonius | the sysv-rc/sysv-init port (standard Devuan, i.e.) is going smoothly. In fact, rewriting the shim for systemctl did not take long at all. |
| 23:47.56 | bozonius | I'm even thinking of building a couple of dummy packages for sytemctl so that apt-get won't barf on install. |
| 23:48.23 | bozonius | Rather than trying to maintain a separate omv package for Devuan and other sysv-rc based systems |
| 23:56.40 | bozonius | the debate page on openrc is more than 3 1/2 years old. The 3 people listed at the bottom: Are those devuan devs or maints? There is no attribution to them there. |
| 23:56.54 | bozonius | (I think the page should be updated to point out who these folks are.) |