| 00:02.31 | timeless | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KUfBeEBk/%2Fmnt%2Fboot%2Fgrub%2Fgrub.cfg |
| 00:02.44 | timeless | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/t9U2gdsm/%2Fmnt%2Fboot2%2Fgrub%2Fgrub.cfg |
| 00:06.09 | timeless | odd |
| 00:06.28 | timeless | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:08.14 | timeless | maybe i'm wrong? maybe the computer actually tried to boot from the raid form but the updated one was non-raid? |
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| 01:18.52 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 01:19.13 | fsmithred | Yay! |
| 01:19.19 | saptech | I guess I would have to go in Mageia to edit it and make it permanent |
| 01:19.26 | saptech | yes YAYYYYY |
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| 01:20.05 | fsmithred | you might need to make a custom entry. If you edit grub.cfg it will be overwritten the next time update-grub runs |
| 01:20.18 | saptech | right |
| 01:21.02 | fsmithred | you know how to do that? |
| 01:21.14 | saptech | well thanks for your persistant on helping me with this. |
| 01:21.21 | fsmithred | it goes in /etc/grub.d/40_custom |
| 01:21.30 | saptech | ok |
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| 01:23.07 | saptech | fsmithred, will I need to create a complete entry for devuan? |
| 01:23.31 | saptech | and remove the older entries? |
| 01:23.43 | fsmithred | I usually just write lines for root=(hd-whatever), linux and initrd |
| 01:23.58 | fsmithred | but I think you can just copy the whole entry for devuan... |
| 01:24.26 | fsmithred | menuetry "Devuan" { blah, blah for several lines. } |
| 01:24.38 | fsmithred | don't edit grub.cfg at all |
| 01:24.55 | saptech | ok, great |
| 01:24.58 | fsmithred | after 40_custom, run update-grub to make a new menu |
| 01:25.23 | saptech | will it remove the older entries for devuan? |
| 01:25.37 | fsmithred | no |
| 01:25.47 | saptech | the ones already there |
| 01:25.48 | fsmithred | it will add the custom entry at the bottom of the menu |
| 01:25.58 | saptech | gotcha |
| 01:25.59 | fsmithred | just ignore the ones that are there |
| 01:26.16 | saptech | ok |
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| 02:59.24 | timeless | finally gets the lv-s to mount |
| 03:00.18 | timeless | not very interesting https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/LYTuHYPk/ |
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| 03:20.11 | timeless | ok, i was able to randomly pick the right disk to boot from, my kernel started and then wouldn't load the vg |
| 03:20.26 | timeless | needs to understand what state vg's should be in (exported/imported??) |
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| 03:52.05 | timeless | ok, i've booted reliably into the system, but the backups lv refuses to mount |
| 03:52.27 | timeless | it claims it's already mounted or the mount target is busy, but neither are correct |
| 03:54.46 | timeless | hrm, got it working |
| 03:55.52 | timeless | (it would be nice if mount had a better error when one used /dev/mapper/foo instead of /dev/raidfoo/foo |
| 04:06.48 | timeless | --turns out that the answer is `fsck.ext3` is running in the background, it just takes a long time |
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| 05:11.04 | gnarface | timeless: sorry, didn't read the whole scrollback, but how much time is "a long time" here? fsck.ext3 isn't known for being speedy, but also completely separately i've seen some driver bugs on linux to do with a certain very popular series of intel raid devices (both onboard and as add-on cards) that would fail to enable DMA mode for drives in some weird cases, severely worsening the situation |
| 05:12.14 | gnarface | timeless: it would have to do with when during the bootup process DMA was enabled, which would be in some cases be after the hook for checking fsck |
| 05:14.45 | gnarface | timeless: it's probably also worth noting a completely separate problem i've been hearing about lately that some default raid setup mechanism these days is giving everyone some sort of lazy init process that skips actually formatting the whole array, severely reducing performance over the next couple days while it tries to finish in the background of the running system, just to save a few minutes at initial install time |
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| 05:36.24 | timeless | gnarface: so, the linux startup process gives it 90s to start. it can't finish in that, so w/o nofail, the system forces a safe mode that requires a root password |
| 05:36.40 | timeless | w/ nofail, i think it takes 20-30 mins or so to settle |
| 05:37.17 | timeless | the array is something on the order of 4.5TB spread over those varied partitions |
| 05:37.28 | timeless | it's all md0 raid, no hardware support |
| 05:37.36 | timeless | and it was configured a really long time ago |
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| 06:18.54 | gnarface | timeless: well, for 4.5TB i think even 30 minutes may be a bit fast for PIO mode (i would expect days) |
| 06:20.24 | gnarface | timeless: so it's probably not THAT bug, but i'm not sure. check to see if there's some ezinit or lazyinit or something like that with an ext* or e2* tools process or something like that running in the background still after it comes up. also you'd notice throughput being heavily hampered. i forget the exact flag/process to look for, but i'd know if i saw it pasted again |
| 06:21.18 | timeless | isn't planning on rebooting it more times |
| 06:21.44 | timeless | well, there's one task left for this system... it's i686 and i should try converting it to amd64.. |
| 06:24.16 | timeless | i think what i want to do now to the system is to fix /boot so it's properly raid... |
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| 06:42.23 | gnarface | timeless: ah, well that's a bit more of a juggling trick there. it's generally advised / and /boot are NOT part of your raid array, for numerous practical reasons |
| 06:43.26 | timeless | I don't trust any of the physical hardware, i'd much rather have 2 disks that could boot than rely on one |
| 06:44.02 | gnarface | oh, i don't blame you, but it causes enough problems that usually it's advised you provide redundancy there through other means |
| 06:44.28 | gnarface | (a whole second machine, traditionally) |
| 06:44.28 | timeless | i'm open to alternatives |
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| 06:45.51 | timeless | well, for that model, i'd sooner move to virtualized hardware (which i'm slowly doing) |
| 06:46.25 | gnarface | yea, once you have two machines there's little excuse not to duplicate everything at that point |
| 06:48.05 | gnarface | i think there were scales of costs of computing form factors where this made more sense once upon a time |
| 06:49.21 | gnarface | there is a way to get / onto the raid and boot from it though, it's just tricky to repair your raid array if you can't even boot |
| 06:49.22 | timeless | i grew up in a commodity model -- single everything, disposable everything |
| 06:49.57 | timeless | but i moved to supporting a company's hardware and i'm trying to trade off hardware w/ reliability |
| 06:50.07 | timeless | (worse: aging hardware) |
| 06:52.34 | tudor2 | timeless: grats |
| 06:53.06 | timeless | :) |
| 06:53.14 | timeless | now i can go back to fighting mail servers and milters |
| 06:53.57 | tudor2 | it seems that you have fun |
| 06:54.27 | tudor2 | would you care to write a quick summary of your adventures? aka what was the solution? |
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| 06:55.11 | tudor2 | for example what was the correct disk to boot from and how you found it - root kernel parameter or bios bootmenu? |
| 06:55.49 | timeless | i ended up using the bios boot menu |
| 06:56.00 | timeless | i knew that i had tried 2 of the 5 wd drives |
| 06:56.04 | timeless | i picked one of the others |
| 06:56.16 | timeless | that part wasn't very exciting |
| 06:56.50 | timeless | the lvm bits were. one thing not to do: don't lvdetach or whatever -- that made things worse since the array wouldn't mount when it turned on |
| 06:57.26 | timeless | oh, the one thing i did change was i edited the grub boot menu thing so that it gave me a longer timeout |
| 06:57.36 | timeless | i'm not sure if it actually triggered, but i figured i might as well |
| 06:58.12 | timeless | eventually once i got things booted, i deleted a bunch of the old kernel files from /boot and ran update-grub since there's no point in trying to boot a kernel that isn't installed |
| 06:59.03 | timeless | and I somehow convinced it to copy over the linux-4* kernel (it actually initially booted to the previous linux-3.16* kernel which was the last one that the wrong /boot had) |
| 06:59.25 | gnarface | oh you were using LVM *and* hardware raid? yea that will complicate everything too |
| 06:59.38 | timeless | not hardware raid, software raid |
| 06:59.49 | gnarface | that's even worse |
| 06:59.51 | timeless | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:00.00 | timeless | yeah. i inherited this mess |
| 07:00.09 | timeless | personally, i set things up w/ zfs |
| 07:00.43 | gnarface | most people who know what they're doing use LMV *or* raid, not both. i'm aware various installers like to do this to you by default though. |
| 07:01.04 | timeless | if i need to grow a disk, i just let the zpool system grow, none of this "oh let me create another partition-pair, another md, create another pv, and then add that to a lvm |
| 07:01.55 | gnarface | hah |
| 07:02.11 | timeless | (i think that's the right description of this mess... in the end, there are two partitions on top of the lvm ??) |
| 07:02.29 | gnarface | all that, just for / and /boot? |
| 07:02.35 | gnarface | hilarious |
| 07:02.56 | timeless | that's for / and /backups |
| 07:03.12 | timeless | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:03.21 | timeless | but some of the disks have died, and i don't trust any of the disks |
| 07:03.41 | timeless | so my hope was to at least have two copies of it so that if one of them died (quite likely), i could still boot and continue... |
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| 07:04.18 | gnarface | that's good thinking, but i'm sure you've also heard the adage that RAID is not a replacement for backups |
| 07:04.49 | timeless | yep |
| 07:05.00 | timeless | personally, i've found each layer in this stack to be awful |
| 07:05.16 | timeless | i would really rather have nothing to do w/ md, pv, lv, or ext :) |
| 07:05.27 | timeless | (or physical hardware for that matter!) |
| 07:05.38 | gnarface | well for sure xfs is better for this type of thing |
| 07:05.55 | gnarface | no fsck time, no resize time, resizing possible on the fly, et c |
| 07:05.57 | timeless | xfs / zfs / btrfs |
| 07:06.18 | timeless | my personal preference is zfs, but i could live w/ one of the others |
| 07:06.47 | timeless | anyway, one thing i need to figure out is whether i can manage to have a backup system which isn't running / instantiated most of the time |
| 07:07.38 | timeless | something where i have google cloud snapshots of disks, when i want to back up, i instantiate the snapshots as disks, instantiate a computer, send my backup, snapshot the disks, shut down, delete the disks -- leaving just the snapshots |
| 07:07.39 | tudor2 | gnarface: for a long time the standard was to have an md and lvm on it - lvm didnt do raids that well and md well it's md. All those fancy things like zfs are relatively new, and i am still not convinced myself to migrate. |
| 07:07.56 | tudor2 | timeless: congratulations for a battle you win :) |
| 07:08.03 | timeless | tudor2: thanks |
| 07:08.51 | timeless | isn't really sure what the status of pv is these days, can lvm do everything w/o pv or is that layer still needed? |
| 07:09.20 | tudor2 | i would be surprised if lvm could do without physical volumes |
| 07:10.00 | timeless | so at best one can get rid of the md layer? |
| 07:10.04 | tudor2 | but what we call lvm nowadays is really something called dm, which can do encryption and raid and a lot of other magic |
| 07:10.22 | tudor2 | you definitely could get rid of the md layer |
| 07:10.31 | timeless | https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/150644/raiding-with-lvm-vs-mdraid-pros-and-cons |
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| 07:11.02 | timeless | so lvm is really more of an interface to dm than the actual implementation? |
| 07:11.14 | timeless | has seen dm bleed through in various places |
| 07:11.40 | tudor2 | yes, correct |
| 07:14.54 | timeless | that stackexchange article is pretty depressing |
| 07:15.02 | timeless | (and yes, i suspect it's ~4 years old) |
| 07:16.08 | tudor2 | it shows that you have to use the appropriate tools. You do swrad with mdadm and lvm with lvm. or go whole hog and move to zfs, for which i'm too conservative. |
| 07:17.58 | tudor2 | or of you brave, btrfs. I'm happy with my mdadm raid6 and raid1. |
| 07:18.57 | timeless | nods |
| 07:19.18 | timeless | since i was using zfs ~10 years ago on both solaris and osx, i'm not particularly bothered by it |
| 07:19.38 | timeless | the mdadm/lvm stories are really depressing |
| 07:19.50 | timeless | and gosh, sure I can google, but the results are actually bad |
| 07:20.10 | timeless | i don't even think i ran into any lvm-raid suggestions, which given that it's apparently been around for 6 years says something... |
| 07:20.25 | timeless | (it wouldn't have helped me, but the point is there doesn't seem to be much content covering it) |
| 07:22.22 | tudor2 | no point really, zfs and its ilk are better. We only have to make Larry drunk to make it really open source. |
| 07:22.44 | timeless | nods |
| 07:22.57 | timeless | fwiw, i actually sat on the other side of that fence |
| 07:23.15 | timeless | i'm happy w/ open source, but i don't particularly like tainting licenses (please don't flame me) |
| 07:23.36 | tudor2 | ah tainting licenses like gpl 'virus'? |
| 07:23.38 | timeless | is an MPL person as opposed to a GPL/LGPL person |
| 07:23.48 | timeless | yes |
| 07:24.30 | timeless | and yes, i know there's value in being able to force someone else to give up their source or stop using your stuff |
| 07:24.41 | timeless | but i find it hard to see that as "freedom" |
| 07:25.06 | timeless | i prefer the limited form of mpl (cddl is basically just a rebrand of mpl) |
| 07:25.31 | timeless | mpl requires you to release changes to files that are mpl, but not new files you add under another compatible license |
| 07:26.00 | timeless | whereas gpl / lgpl apply to the linked product |
| 07:26.07 | tudor2 | the real value is to force them to not to use your stuff without giving back. Also when it was created the real value was to stop companies taking other people's code and making it closed and asking money for it. |
| 07:26.24 | timeless | nods |
| 07:26.29 | timeless | i'm not sure that worked though |
| 07:26.51 | timeless | i'm not sure people would accept my pointing to mysql given that it was bought by oracle... |
| 07:27.03 | timeless | has seen a number of things go closed source, even w/ gpl licenses |
| 07:27.15 | tudor2 | it's like my previous free software advocacy - i did a lot of that, teaching, praisingn talking with govts. But by now free software won. So i don't do that anymore. |
| 07:27.24 | timeless | (sure you can fork, and sure, maria did a reasonable job of doing so) |
| 07:27.58 | timeless | free software won in some ways |
| 07:28.10 | timeless | but in some ways, we've lost --- i'm an open web person at heart |
| 07:28.17 | timeless | and facebook is a great example of not that |
| 07:28.43 | tudor2 | similarly, the landscape changed a lot so by now most of important software is open in some form, it's not GPL vs Closed Corporate, so yes, GPL is less important. But it still necessary to keep the large companies at bay. |
| 07:28.45 | timeless | (or youtube or pick the other 5-10 top sites which make up the vast majority of traffic these days) |
| 07:29.12 | timeless | i'm not sure how well that's working either |
| 07:29.34 | timeless | last i checked, apple was doing a great job pushing llvm to defeat gcc as _the_ compiler |
| 07:30.02 | timeless | v8 isn't gpl either |
| 07:30.50 | timeless | (i haven't looked into the debugger stories these days, but i spent more than a decade playing w/ gdb, and while it's getting better, i'm pretty sure it isn't the best) |
| 07:31.09 | timeless | (although my most recent fight was w/ perl5's debugger, which is ... yuck) |
| 07:31.46 | timeless | it's true that the linux kernel's gpl has bin a big winner, and busybox has been a good winner against physical hardware |
| 07:31.54 | tudor2 | :) i never tried any perl (or python) debugge,r i just put a lot of prints everywhere |
| 07:31.57 | timeless | s/bin/been/ (i'm tired) |
| 07:32.22 | timeless | pdb is a bit better than perl -d, sometimes, pudb is actually pretty nice/pretty |
| 07:32.32 | timeless | (although it has huge issues where it eats its own tail) |
| 07:32.43 | tudor2 | he? |
| 07:33.06 | timeless | ? |
| 07:33.47 | timeless | can't find `he` in the last couple of lines |
| 07:36.00 | tudor2 | "it eats its own tail" |
| 07:36.28 | timeless | pudb |
| 07:37.38 | timeless | pudb is a python debugger with a text based ide-like ui written in python |
| 07:38.09 | timeless | unfortunately, that means that sometimes one gets exceptions from the python debugger itself where it doesn't properly handle its own bugs |
| 07:38.32 | timeless | used to have similar problems w/ venkman (a js based js debugger gui for mozilla) |
| 07:39.11 | tudor2 | ah so. |
| 07:39.48 | timeless | ok, ... not a license argument, but if you saw "Gnu GPL", would you cough? |
| 07:40.00 | timeless | (the casing feels wrong to me) |
| 07:40.09 | tudor2 | i don't do these fancy things, i never wrote really huge things so i'm still a vim + print person. |
| 07:41.07 | tudor2 | casing? (i know nothing about english grammar) (i don't know much baout hungarian grammar either) |
| 07:41.20 | tudor2 | ah upper/lover case? |
| 07:41.32 | timeless | oh right, i forgot you were hungarian |
| 07:41.33 | timeless | yeah |
| 07:41.57 | timeless | (your English is fairly good-- i've had worse conversations w/ native speakers on occasions) |
| 07:42.19 | tudor2 | smiles happily |
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| 07:43.47 | tudor2 | I did some java and after so much CamelCase i'm just immune for this. |
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| 07:46.41 | timeless | probably s/for/to/ |
| 07:47.26 | tudor2 | thanks :) |
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| 09:54.40 | *** join/#devuan vrederv (~vrederv@84-115-51-94.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 09:54.59 | vrederv | Hey folks, does Devuan do reproducible builds? |
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| 09:57.27 | enyc | vrederv: i thought that was down to individual packages... |
| 09:58.01 | enyc | vrederv: maybe you could help devuan wit this...? |
| 10:00.49 | vrederv | Well Debian builds nearly all of their packages reproducibly (https://tests.reproducible-builds.org/debian/reproducible.html). |
| 10:01.28 | KatolaZ | vrederv: nearly 95% of Devuan packages come straight from Debian.... |
| 10:02.27 | vrederv | That's what I thought. |
| 10:02.45 | KatolaZ | vrederv: I don't follow you, tbh |
| 10:03.07 | KatolaZ | all Devuan builds are reproducible |
| 10:03.15 | KatolaZ | they are based on jenkins quilds |
| 10:03.17 | KatolaZ | builds |
| 10:03.24 | KatolaZ | linked to source package tags |
| 10:04.10 | KatolaZ | (git iags) |
| 10:04.22 | jaromil | KatolaZ: reproducible builds is another thing |
| 10:04.45 | jaromil | it will be much easier for us to setup of course |
| 10:04.58 | jaromil | and we have plans to activate them after ascii |
| 10:05.30 | jaromil | KatolaZ: r-b tl;dr: build packages twice on different machines and compare hashes |
| 10:05.40 | KatolaZ | yeah jaromil |
| 10:05.41 | KatolaZ | I know |
| 10:05.45 | jaromil | to have a deterministic hash linking binary to source |
| 10:05.48 | KatolaZ | I personally don't see the reason for that |
| 10:05.53 | KatolaZ | and don't see it as a priority |
| 10:06.00 | KatolaZ | at all |
| 10:06.05 | vrederv | security |
| 10:06.06 | jaromil | well, i do :) and we need it for DECODE |
| 10:06.08 | jaromil | so its in the plans |
| 10:06.17 | KatolaZ | and btw, reproducible builds os not about bit-by-bit equal packages... |
| 10:07.13 | vrederv | it is |
| 10:07.34 | KatolaZ | it's all about th eenvironment used to build |
| 10:07.41 | KatolaZ | s/all/also |
| 10:07.49 | vrederv | of course |
| 10:07.52 | jaromil | yep |
| 10:08.17 | jaromil | vrederv: if you have esperience setting them up, you are more than welcome to help... |
| 10:08.52 | KatolaZ | vrederv: if you have experience of packaging and maintaining packages, it is even more appreciated |
| 10:08.55 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 10:09.03 | enyc | wonders if there is a good page/source of ascii known-issues at present... |
| 10:09.04 | KatolaZ | we are already 6 months behind Debian |
| 10:09.14 | KatolaZ | enyc: seen the mail on DNG? |
| 10:09.29 | KatolaZ | https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20171211.190051.843303de.en.html |
| 10:09.32 | KatolaZ | enyc: ^^^ |
| 10:09.43 | enyc | KatolaZ: no =) |
| 10:09.51 | KatolaZ | enyc: plus a few of other things to be done on the repos |
| 10:10.48 | enyc | KatolaZ: I don't know how similar issues with automounting/permisisons are desktop-variant-specific hrrm.... |
| 10:11.16 | jaromil | small OT: is it my network, or today there are tls errors connecting to github? <g> |
| 10:11.30 | enyc | KatolaZ: I noticed if using MATE-destkop on jessie upgraded to ascii, can't seem to get the whole mounting of usb-sticks / whatever going =) ... workarounds others suggested I couldn't get to work either hehe =) |
| 10:11.34 | KatolaZ | enyc: I don't know much about auto-desktop-things |
| 10:11.50 | KatolaZ | I mount stuff with pmount |
| 10:11.57 | jaromil | enyc: you are trying mate-desktop by antofox? |
| 10:12.13 | enyc | jaromil: no idea, whats' that about? |
| 10:12.24 | KatolaZ | enyc: which MATE packages are you using? |
| 10:12.29 | KatolaZ | the standard ones from Debian? |
| 10:12.37 | KatolaZ | or those from hezeh |
| 10:12.38 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 10:12.49 | enyc | KatolaZ: debian/devuan packages, on variosu machines/releases |
| 10:13.15 | jaromil | my network is bonkers here, need to move on. will do my best to be at dev meeting tonight btw |
| 10:13.40 | enyc | antofox, may be backporting/building the LinuxMint MATE/Cinnamon to debian/devuan, by looks of things...? |
| 10:13.58 | jaromil | https://git.devuan.org/users/antofox/contributed |
| 10:13.59 | jaromil | indeed |
| 10:14.12 | jaromil | he is the best one to follow for what you are looking for |
| 10:14.21 | jaromil | we already moved mate into devuan-packages so should enter mainline |
| 10:14.48 | enyc | jaromil: what do you mean? mainline who/what/release, devuan variant packages? |
| 10:14.55 | jaromil | i mean main devuan repos |
| 10:15.41 | enyc | from where? im confused |
| 10:15.51 | enyc | i thought debian had mate anyway, why does devuan need it in special repo? |
| 10:16.07 | KatolaZ | enyc: to remove some systemd deps |
| 10:16.10 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 10:17.38 | KatolaZ | bbl |
| 10:17.39 | KatolaZ | o/ |
| 10:18.50 | enyc | OK... |
| 10:20.28 | enyc | also -- to what extent is the whole "make libsystemd into a shim", rather than "remove all deps on systemd" being considered? |
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| 10:21.34 | djph | fairly certain it's more the latter than the former |
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| 10:39.42 | gnu_srs | KatolaZ: I'm running mate in ascii and I don't have any of antofox packages installed. What's the problem? |
| 10:41.49 | enyc | gnu_srs: do you have auto-mount of usbsticks, or ability to click on an encrypted disk and mount it, etc.... ? |
| 10:43.03 | gnu_srs | enyc: Haven't tried. I'm running mate in some VMs. |
| 10:43.21 | enyc | gnu_srs: try it =) |
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| 11:14.44 | KatolaZ | enyc: tbh, I don't mind libsystemd0 |
| 11:14.57 | KatolaZ | my plan is to remove it with a shim |
| 11:15.03 | KatolaZ | s/remove/replace |
| 11:15.09 | KatolaZ | but not for ascii |
| 11:15.27 | KatolaZ | people seem to be so concerned about libsystemd0, but evidently they have not had a look at the code |
| 11:15.39 | KatolaZ | which does *absolutely* *nothing* if systemd is not running |
| 11:15.58 | KatolaZ | anyway, we will remove that as well |
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| 11:18.14 | enyc | KatolaZ: but are there cases, that need to emulate some of functionality, pass it on to other daemons, etc.... for functionality? |
| 11:19.16 | KatolaZ | enyc: have you found any case of a package that depends on libsystemd0 and does not work on Devuan? |
| 11:19.47 | enyc | KatolaZ: not looked tbh, but I know dependencies on libsystemd0 are increasing ''isue'' |
| 11:20.45 | gnu_srs | (11:39:54) srs: KatolaZ: I'm running mate in ascii and I don't have any of antofox packages installed. What's the problem? |
| 11:20.52 | KatolaZ | I personally don't see the issue, unless a package stops working |
| 11:21.02 | KatolaZ | gnu_srs: I have never installed MATE |
| 11:21.05 | KatolaZ | I have no idea what MATE is |
| 11:21.07 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 11:21.46 | KatolaZ | I am happy to hear that it works for you |
| 11:21.59 | KatolaZ | apparently there were glitches in Jessie and ASCII |
| 11:22.12 | KatolaZ | due to systemd deps |
| 11:22.18 | KatolaZ | don't know much more than that |
| 11:22.21 | KatolaZ | AntoFox: ^^^ |
| 11:22.38 | gnu_srs | OK |
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| 11:25.40 | AntoFox | heylà|
| 11:25.43 | AntoFox | o/ |
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| 11:28.09 | enyc | KatolaZ: hrrm... actually jessie devuan, libsystemd0 installed because deps! |
| 11:31.19 | enyc | KatolaZ: clamav-daemon cups-daemon sane-utils packagekit mate-session-manager mate-screensaver gvfs-daemons clamav-daemon <- have libsystemd0 deps seemingly! |
| 11:33.28 | gnu_srs | Without bothering about libsystemd0 the Debian packages are fine :D |
| 11:34.34 | KatolaZ | enyc: I don't mind libsystemd0, again :) |
| 11:34.45 | tudor2 | mate is a fancy desktop environment with a lot of moving parts, the kind which needs a lot of systemd and pulseaudio and other similar things |
| 11:36.23 | gnu_srs | Again, we should concentrate on packages depending on *systemd*, but excepting libsystemd0 for now! |
| 11:36.32 | n4dir | If you can easily run debian without systemd, and libsystemd ain't a problem, then what's the point of devuan? |
| 11:36.56 | n4dir | ah, the packages which depend on systemd, i guess. |
| 11:37.03 | gnu_srs | That will make the number of packages to Devuanise a lot less. |
| 11:41.26 | KatolaZ | n4dir: it's not that simple |
| 11:41.46 | KatolaZ | for isntance, many components that users consider "standard" already depend on systemd on Debian |
| 11:41.50 | KatolaZ | one example: network-manager |
| 11:42.00 | KatolaZ | another example: logind |
| 11:42.19 | KatolaZ | and I could continue |
| 11:45.05 | n4dir | isn't that what i said in the second sentence? |
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| 11:52.32 | djph | the more and more I read about it, it seems it was a solution looking for a problem :| |
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| 11:59.15 | enyc | djph: errrrrrwhich part? etc |
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| 13:15.15 | djph | enyc: oops. s/it/systemd/ |
| 13:15.34 | djph | err 's/read about it/read about systemd/' |
| 13:16.23 | tudor2 | djph: this bafflement with systemd (as in why?) is a shared feeling. |
| 13:18.23 | tudor2 | but i'm safe now. |
| 13:18.30 | djph | tudor2: haha |
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| 13:40.16 | msiism | question on xfce and slim: does that combination (in a standard devuan installation) allow for graphical display management (basically, fast user switching) like you could do it with KDM, TDM, GDM...? |
| 13:40.48 | KatolaZ | msiism: I guess that's the idea... |
| 13:41.18 | msiism | KatolaZ: but slim itself doesn't have that capability. |
| 13:42.00 | msiism | if i'm not mistaken, slim, being only a login manager, just provides means for graphical login. |
| 13:42.45 | KatolaZ | msiism: then ask fsmithred |
| 13:42.50 | msiism | i'm using it with lxde on an office machine. and if i want to start a second X session for another user, i will have to switch to the tty, log in there and execute startx. |
| 13:42.50 | KatolaZ | he knows |
| 13:42.54 | msiism | KatolaZ: will do |
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| 13:47.32 | enyc | I wonder how well lightd works, etc etc... |
| 13:47.54 | enyc | without systemd runnig, multi user logins etc... hrrm |
| 13:49.29 | KatolaZ | enyc: multi-user logins existed well before systemd... |
| 13:49.49 | enyc | KatolaZ: indeed but i wonder what interdependencies have since been created there |
| 13:50.06 | KatolaZ | I don't understand where the myth that only-systemd-allows-this-and-that has come from |
| 13:50.11 | KatolaZ | same for cgroups |
| 13:50.23 | KatolaZ | they have been around for the best part of the last 15 years |
| 13:50.37 | KatolaZ | now nobody is able to use cgroups without systems |
| 13:50.41 | KatolaZ | ~systemd |
| 13:50.53 | KatolaZ | we are all *dumbed* by systemd... :\ |
| 13:51.09 | msiism | KatolaZ: i think, enyc is referring to lightdm probably being entangled with systemd. |
| 13:51.41 | KatolaZ | well, let's make an effort to disentangle it, *if* it is really entangled |
| 13:51.54 | enyc | systemd-shim and lal that may be related |
| 13:52.04 | msiism | also, lightdm has a weird license issue, if i remeber that right. |
| 13:52.25 | KatolaZ | btw, it looks like lightdm is currently installable in ascii |
| 13:52.30 | KatolaZ | please try it |
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| 13:52.53 | KatolaZ | it can use consolekit instead of libpam-systemd |
| 13:52.57 | KatolaZ | so it should work |
| 13:53.28 | KatolaZ | enyc: please just try to install it |
| 13:53.45 | KatolaZ | it installs fine in ascii |
| 13:53.52 | enyc | KatolaZ: actually just realiszed/discovered thats what i'm using on jessie working |
| 13:54.01 | KatolaZ | -_- |
| 13:54.13 | enyc | KatolaZ: yes, id' have to test in ascii ... after next round of fixes/updates =) |
| 13:54.15 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 13:54.25 | KatolaZ | enyc: please try it asap |
| 13:54.29 | KatolaZ | and report any bugs |
| 13:54.56 | KatolaZ | enyc: we need people to tell us what does not work |
| 13:55.15 | KatolaZ | nobody can try alone the 52000 packages in ascii |
| 13:55.35 | KatolaZ | and btw, the large majority of them does not depend on systemd |
| 14:11.32 | djph | hm, I really gotta get an ascii box |
| 14:11.57 | djph | ... wonder if I know kvm CLI well enough to spin up a new VM ... |
| 14:12.33 | KatolaZ | djph: just use qemu |
| 14:12.41 | KatolaZ | it's immediate |
| 14:13.23 | djph | KatolaZ: yeah, but getting it to read the iso, and then run the installer and ... etc. is not that easy |
| 14:13.43 | djph | or rather, I haven't yet found the correct invocation to make it work |
| 14:14.12 | KatolaZ | just ask then :) |
| 14:14.45 | KatolaZ | -cdrom INSTALLER.img -m 512 -enable-kvm -hda YOURIMAGE.img -boot d |
| 14:14.56 | KatolaZ | should be enough to install it |
| 14:15.19 | KatolaZ | qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom INSTALLER.img -m 512 -enable-kvm -hda YOURIMAGE.img -boot d |
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| 14:16.23 | djph | let's find out ... bah, surprise phonecall. ugh :| |
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| 14:26.31 | gnu_srs | enyc: I run mate on top of lightdm in ascii ;) |
| 14:29.07 | gnu_srs | qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -hda <your image>.img -net nic -net user,ipv4,hostfwd=tcp::5556-:22 -m 1024 -localtime |
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| 14:29.45 | fsmithred | ha! I just posted a reply to bug 112 |
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| 14:30.37 | gnu_srs | KatolaZ, et al: What do you think of creating a Devuan package of elogind? |
| 14:31.22 | fsmithred | msiism, I'm pretty sure you can't do user-switching with slim. |
| 14:31.29 | gnu_srs | elogind is a Guix fork of systemd-logind |
| 14:32.20 | fsmithred | gnu_srs, would that make more packages work in devuan? |
| 14:32.37 | fsmithred | I don't know what I'm missing by not having systemd-logind |
| 14:33.18 | djph | fsmithred: being told it's "the one true way" to manage logins. Also, the computer killing things when you hang up or otherwise the connection drops |
| 14:33.19 | parazyd | gnu_srs: elogind is kinda useless without patching all other packages that use logind/libpam-systemd |
| 14:34.53 | gnu_srs | parazyd: Of course we have to patch the packages using systemd-logind. Then we might also have gnome |
| 14:35.12 | parazyd | that's something to look further on |
| 14:35.40 | parazyd | not really a priority now. let's get ascii out and make propositions for beowulf after it's in testing :) |
| 14:35.51 | KatolaZ | agree with parazyd |
| 14:36.09 | KatolaZ | unless we can make elogind work between ASCII beta and ASCII stable |
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| 14:36.30 | parazyd | KatolaZ: it will "work" as a package. but nothing will use it |
| 14:36.45 | KatolaZ | this is what I mean by "work" |
| 14:36.47 | parazyd | c code needs change of header includes to use elogind |
| 14:36.52 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 14:36.58 | djph | parazyd: but can we make a beowulf cluster of ... |
| 14:37.10 | parazyd | javacards |
| 14:37.27 | KatolaZ | dwarves? |
| 14:38.29 | gnu_srs | Well, the Guix people have already done a lot in this direction. |
| 14:39.05 | msiism | will mate and cinnamon versions for devuan use slim as the login manager as well? |
| 14:39.41 | parazyd | msiism: we don't know yet :p |
| 14:39.49 | parazyd | will know after the spint |
| 14:39.54 | parazyd | (this weekend) |
| 14:40.08 | msiism | good. |
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| 14:42.14 | fsmithred | if they use desktop-base, they will get slim. I don't know if they will also get another dm. |
| 14:42.21 | msiism | maybe this display manager thing can be a focus for beowulf. it's really a bit of a drawback not to have that on a multi-user desktop computer in an office environment. but ok, if i really needed it badly, i could go for TDE, or just TDM, actually. |
| 14:42.49 | fsmithred | slim also does not handle changing language |
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| 14:43.06 | msiism | and it does not understand german umlauts |
| 14:43.28 | fsmithred | do you get system messages in german? |
| 14:43.37 | msiism | yes. |
| 14:43.45 | msiism | and the tty understands umlauts |
| 14:43.54 | msiism | i mean, the tty login |
| 14:43.54 | fsmithred | hm |
| 14:43.57 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 14:44.19 | msiism | not such a big deal, but maybe sth that could be fixed in future |
| 14:46.57 | MinceR | is TDE part of Devuan ascii yet? |
| 14:47.47 | fsmithred | no tde in devuan repos |
| 14:48.05 | fsmithred | but it should work. I think they even have instructions for installing on devuan |
| 14:49.48 | msiism | MinceR: tde has an apt repository for debian/devuan and install instructions on their website |
| 14:50.06 | MinceR | ic |
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| 16:17.32 | guru_ | Unpacking chromium (63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1) over (62.0.3202.89-1) ... |
| 16:17.33 | guru_ | dpkg: error processing archive /var/cache/apt/archives/chromium_63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1_amd64.deb (--unpack): |
| 16:17.43 | guru_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:17.48 | guru_ | so much for updating :P |
| 16:21.33 | guru_ | apt-get clean and updating again leads to the same error |
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| 17:23.50 | fsmithred | guru_, remove chromium and then install the newer version |
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| 18:07.30 | guru_ | alright thanks |
| 18:07.48 | guru_ | why wouldn't apt-get update work with chromium |
| 18:07.56 | guru_ | i'm just removing it with apt-get remove |
| 18:09.33 | guru_ | same error |
| 18:09.59 | guru_ | https://pastebin.com/h22rS8H0 |
| 18:12.44 | fsmithred | guru, you get the same error when you try to remove it? |
| 18:12.53 | guru_ | nope |
| 18:13.21 | fsmithred | what happens? |
| 18:14.11 | guru_ | Package 'chromium' is not installed, so not removed |
| 18:14.18 | guru_ | installing gives me: |
| 18:14.20 | guru_ | https://pastebin.com/h22rS8H0 |
| 18:14.36 | fsmithred | hang on, I'm checking versions |
| 18:14.59 | fsmithred | you're running ascii? |
| 18:15.02 | guru_ | yup |
| 18:15.14 | guru_ | https://pastebin.com/HNpeX29w |
| 18:15.20 | guru_ | sources |
| 18:16.19 | fsmithred | I'm about to do the same |
| 18:17.18 | guru_ | i even have issues with filezilla installing |
| 18:17.23 | guru_ | i'm about to just roll back to jessie |
| 18:17.39 | guru_ | is ascii stable? |
| 18:18.01 | golinux | Probably something in your setup or there would have been many mention of this. |
| 18:18.07 | fsmithred | I just ran 'apt-get install chromium' |
| 18:18.20 | fsmithred | and these packages got upgraded: chromium libavcodec57 libavformat57 libavutil55 libswresample2 |
| 18:18.24 | fsmithred | no errors |
| 18:19.02 | fsmithred | try: ls -l /usr/lib/chromium/natives_blob.bin |
| 18:19.10 | fsmithred | show me what you get |
| 18:19.16 | guru_ | root@devuan:/home/guru# ls -l /usr/lib/chromium/natives_blob.bin |
| 18:19.16 | guru_ | -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 218275 Nov 6 21:22 /usr/lib/chromium/natives_blob.bin |
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| 18:19.52 | fsmithred | mine is Dec 3 |
| 18:20.00 | fsmithred | same permissions |
| 18:21.05 | fsmithred | maybe 'apt-get -f install' |
| 18:21.06 | guru_ | i just purged *chromium* and did autoremove and that resolved it |
| 18:21.10 | fsmithred | ok |
| 18:21.16 | guru_ | lets see if i can install filezilla again |
| 18:21.24 | guru_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:21.46 | obeardly | When creating a "package" for Devuan (or Debian), would it be acceptable to configure to install/uninstall entirely from preinst and postrm scripts? |
| 18:21.59 | guru_ | filezilla-common is already the newest version (3.28.0-1). |
| 18:22.22 | guru_ | screw it i'll format later |
| 18:22.33 | guru_ | when ascii is stable i'll upgrade |
| 18:22.44 | guru_ | ;p |
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| 18:42.00 | fsmithred | guru_, check in /etc/apt/sources.d/ to make sure you don't have ceres enabled somewhere |
| 18:42.47 | fsmithred | 3.28 is in sid/ceres/buster, and 3.24 is in ascii/stretch |
| 18:46.05 | fsmithred | or run 'apt-cache policy filezilla-common' |
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| 18:51.35 | fsmithred | guru_, you don't have ascii main enabled. You really should. |
| 18:51.46 | fsmithred | and pkgmaster is probably the better choice |
| 19:06.56 | guru_ | thanks |
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| 19:10.57 | matlock | The Schottelius article, while perhaps not as technical as it could be, has gotten a lot of press for Devuan, I've seen it across HN and Slashdot, etc. Hopefully driving some interest. |
| 19:15.03 | golinux | Good timing just before the ascii release. |
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| 19:15.42 | golinux | matlock: This will help too: https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=17/12/12/1515239 |
| 19:16.28 | matlock | Right now I am just trying to get Debian wheezy to upgrade cleanly to Devuan jessie, write a new guide for the web if I need to |
| 19:16.39 | matlock | I am excited for ascii though |
| 19:17.48 | msiism | i'm trying to install devuan jessie on an old laptop. on configuring apt, i get the error that the mirror i selected is invalid. |
| 19:18.26 | msiism | /var/log/syslog says: wget: bad address 'auto.mirror.devuan.org' |
| 19:19.24 | msiism | a few lines above, i read: "choose-mirror": WARNING **: mirror does not support the specified release (jessie)" |
| 19:21.25 | msiism | same with "de.mirror.devuan.org" |
| 19:22.03 | msiism | i chose Germany as the location of the package mirror |
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| 19:24.08 | msiism | also tried "cz. ..." and "us. ...". same result. |
| 19:24.29 | msiism | i'm using the i386 CD image (not netinstall) |
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| 19:26.34 | nepugia | sent a long message: nepugia_2017-12-13_19:26:34.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/rOlYbAoFHuNLpVECDPDeAPGy> |
| 19:40.41 | guru_ | golinux: whats the ETA on the ascii release? |
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| 19:41.58 | golinux | Hopefully soon |
| 19:42.38 | guru_ | :) thanks |
| 19:46.46 | guru_ | https://pastebin.com/8vgw48bR is anyone else getting this when they open filezilla? |
| 19:47.05 | guru_ | brb rebooting |
| 19:57.03 | golinux | Let's see how it goes this weekend. |
| 19:57.31 | msiism | continuing without selecting an apt mirror now. if this is a general problem with installing jessie, someone should probably look into it. |
| 19:58.06 | golinux | msiism: Are you wired? |
| 19:58.25 | golinux | There is a problem with wireless and the net install |
| 19:58.35 | msiism | golinux: i'm wired |
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| 20:00.41 | golinux | Update the keyring? |
| 20:01.57 | msiism | ok, how could i do that? |
| 20:02.03 | golinux | The infra was also moved recently. You could try pkgmaster.d.o |
| 20:02.31 | msiism | well, i'll try that after the installation. as it's the cd image, basic installation works. |
| 20:02.34 | golinux | You're asking gui-girl? |
| 20:02.57 | msiism | i'm wondering if this is a general problem with all jessie installation media now. |
| 20:03.26 | golinux | I've seen it hundreds of times but couldn't type it correctly |
| 20:03.47 | golinux | Jessie will be supported as long as Debian jessie |
| 20:04.16 | golinux | No one else has reported that issue. |
| 20:04.33 | msiism | it's the first time it occurs for me |
| 20:04.43 | golinux | How old is the image? |
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| 20:05.05 | msiism | downloaded 26th of may 2017 |
| 20:05.38 | golinux | Check if a newer one is in files.d.o |
| 20:06.13 | golinux | iirc some of them are being rebuilt due to the infra move |
| 20:07.40 | msiism | devuan_jessie_1.0.0_i386_CD.iso 23-May-2017 22:17 632M at files.devuan.org |
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| 20:14.13 | msiism | i will leave it for now an try to get back to it tomorrow. |
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| 20:16.46 | HG61 | hi. what should my sources.list look like if I want to run devuan ascii without non-free software? currently it looks like the following. is that correct? https://hastebin.com/azuwelogoy.nginx |
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| 22:43.39 | quadbootman | hi im not an expert at this so maybe it's obvious: |
| 22:43.57 | quadbootman | i can connect to my devuan laptop using ssh but i cant connect from it to another linux laptop.. |
| 22:44.15 | quadbootman | for example i'd use ssh -t larry@localhost2 bash --noprofile and nothing would happen, no password requested, nothing |
| 22:44.23 | fsmithred | the other linux needs openssh-server |
| 22:44.48 | quadbootman | the other linux is fine afaik because i can connect to it using the same command from a third linux desktop |
| 22:44.49 | fsmithred | or maybe an opening in its firewall? |
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| 22:46.58 | fsmithred | try adding -v (or -vv) to the ssh command. You'll get more output. |
| 22:48.06 | quadbootman | ok |
| 22:48.50 | fsmithred | does the desktop user have a local config file with special things in it (like a non-standard port, for instance?) |
| 22:49.14 | fsmithred | actually, I think you'd get some feedback in that case |
| 22:50.57 | fsmithred | man ssh does not say anything about --noprofile |
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| 22:51.15 | fsmithred | oh nm |
| 22:52.04 | fsmithred | I get the same with your command |
| 22:52.10 | fsmithred | eventually timed out |
| 22:52.26 | fsmithred | just try ssh larry@localhost2 |
| 22:55.03 | fsmithred | correction, your command does work for me (when the remote host is connected to the network.) |
| 22:56.53 | quadbootman | yes all computers are connected to the same network |
| 22:57.22 | fsmithred | yeah, mine wasn't |
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| 22:58.39 | quadbootman | the -v shows this: |
| 22:58.48 | quadbootman | debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh/ssh_config debug1: /etc/ssh/ssh_config line 19: Applying options for * debug2: ssh_connect: needpriv 0 debug1: Connecting to 192.168.1.64 [192.168.1.64] port 22. |
| 22:59.03 | quadbootman | and just hangs there until i CTRL+C |
| 22:59.20 | fsmithred | did you edit that file? |
| 22:59.30 | quadbootman | i dont think i've edited it |
| 22:59.54 | fsmithred | mine has: Host * |
| 23:00.22 | fsmithred | is the other computer debian or debian-derivative? |
| 23:00.49 | quadbootman | the two that can talk to eachother are gentoo |
| 23:00.49 | fsmithred | look in /var/log/auth.log to see what that computer says when you try to connect |
| 23:01.07 | quadbootman | okay going to check |
| 23:01.08 | fsmithred | ok, whatever log file it uses for ssh |
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| 23:04.20 | quadbootman | i could see the sshd lines from earlier in the evening when i'd connected from the desktop |
| 23:04.31 | quadbootman | interesting however that the port in those lines is not the same as 22 |
| 23:04.38 | fsmithred | are you using auth keys? |
| 23:04.47 | quadbootman | i think i am |
| 23:04.58 | fsmithred | yeah, 22 is used to make the connection, but it switches to a high port |
| 23:05.25 | fsmithred | then you need to have the private key on the client |
| 23:05.41 | fsmithred | the one that matches what's in authorized_keys on the server |
| 23:06.13 | fsmithred | you think? |
| 23:06.35 | quadbootman | i dont have to do anything special when i connect to my computers, not so far |
| 23:06.45 | quadbootman | i just connect, accept the message and im connected |
| 23:06.51 | fsmithred | if you set it up to use auth keys, you would remember |
| 23:07.03 | quadbootman | i dont use ssh outside my home network |
| 23:08.15 | fsmithred | you have to enter a password when you connect? |
| 23:08.30 | quadbootman | yes, the password for the user |
| 23:08.33 | fsmithred | ok |
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| 23:09.11 | fsmithred | I don't have any other ideas right now, sorry. |
| 23:09.34 | fsmithred | google the needpriv 0 I guess. |
| 23:09.34 | quadbootman | ok thx, i only asked here thinking i needed to do something extra with devuan. |
| 23:09.38 | fsmithred | nope |
| 23:09.54 | fsmithred | it is just like debian for that |
| 23:10.03 | fsmithred | I use ssh every day |
| 23:10.30 | fsmithred | but there may be something odd between debian/devuan and gentoo's setup |
| 23:11.36 | fsmithred | maybe too much difference between the versions? A guess. |
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