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| 01:22.28 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 11:11.52 | _abc_ | Hello. What's the deal with aptitude being dog slow on 'loading cache' again? I thought cache ops are to be fast |
| 11:12.10 | _abc_ | I am tempted to tmpfs mount the apt cache. Is this sane? |
| 11:12.30 | specing | _abc_: libeatmydata exists for a reason |
| 11:12.44 | _abc_ | I know but I would like to not get to that. Hacking a hack sucks. |
| 11:13.11 | _abc_ | Is it unsafe to recompile dpkg or aptitude with fsync() refactored to an empty function? |
| 11:13.19 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 11:13.35 | _abc_ | I am really pissed at the way it works. Seriously. |
| 11:13.47 | KatolaZ | well, use apt |
| 11:13.51 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 11:13.54 | KatolaZ | or dselect |
| 11:14.02 | KatolaZ | runs away |
| 11:14.18 | _abc_ | It is not faster ime |
| 11:14.55 | _abc_ | Who the frick did this anyway? Also gcc is in main but gcc-doc is in contrib/non-free? Seriously? |
| 11:15.53 | _abc_ | There should be a cli option to select 'euthanized' fsync() ops, like --dangerous-no-fsync |
| 11:17.10 | specing | _abc_ | Is it unsafe to recompile dpkg or aptitude with fsync() refactored to an empty function? |
| 11:17.23 | specing | but this is exactly what libeatmydata does, without recompiling |
| 11:17.41 | _abc_ | I prefer to recompile, eventually. eatmydata is a LD_LIBRARY_PATH hack |
| 11:18.31 | gnarface | _abc_: are you using a sd card for storage or something? |
| 11:18.41 | _abc_ | indeed. Live system with persistence. |
| 11:18.47 | gnarface | ext4? |
| 11:18.50 | _abc_ | ext2 |
| 11:19.04 | gnarface | damn, and it's still too slow? |
| 11:19.14 | gnarface | well it's never gonna be fast |
| 11:19.17 | _abc_ | Also the default jessie devuan live kernel takes ages to sync sometimes |
| 11:19.31 | _abc_ | gnarface: it is quite fast when tmpfs mounting critical things. |
| 11:20.16 | _abc_ | gnarface: of which things there should be a list in the docs. |
| 11:20.37 | _abc_ | all ~/.cache, ~/tmp, /tmp, /var/cache qualify, there are others |
| 11:20.47 | gnarface | i'm not sure but i think that package might be in contrib more because of who made it or because of how it was made |
| 11:20.53 | _abc_ | */man/cat*/ etc |
| 11:20.58 | gnarface | you could tmpfs mount /tmp |
| 11:21.11 | _abc_ | gnarface: all of the above get abused quite a bit and should be on /tmp |
| 11:21.27 | KatolaZ | _abc_: gcc-doc has always been in contrib in Debian... |
| 11:21.34 | _abc_ | gcc-doc ended up in contrib or non-free apparently due to a license mismatch between gpl and gfdl |
| 11:21.46 | _abc_ | Which is beyond stupid in political terms but whatever |
| 11:21.53 | _abc_ | https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/287075/why-cant-i-fetch-the-gcc-doc-package-on-debian |
| 11:22.04 | KatolaZ | _abc_: but it was like 15 years ago mate :D |
| 11:22.22 | _abc_ | Looks like 2016 to me |
| 11:22.27 | _abc_ | And still relevant |
| 11:23.05 | _abc_ | Okay, all this to be able to put -Werror in a makefile for avr-gcc I am using now... sigh. |
| 11:23.32 | KatolaZ | no _abc_ |
| 11:23.35 | KatolaZ | it's not a new thing |
| 11:23.44 | KatolaZ | it has been like that at least since 2003/2004 |
| 11:23.45 | KatolaZ | IIRC |
| 11:24.59 | KatolaZ | https://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml |
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| 11:25.01 | KatolaZ | there you go |
| 11:25.06 | KatolaZ | it was 2002 :D |
| 11:25.37 | _abc_ | Great. Big problems are stubborn and do not go away by themselves. |
| 11:25.54 | KatolaZ | wow, is this a "big problem"? |
| 11:26.03 | KatolaZ | I would like all the big problems to be like that, tbh |
| 11:26.04 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 11:26.07 | KatolaZ | bbl |
| 11:26.08 | KatolaZ | o/ |
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| 11:32.06 | jaromil | yes, we have have seen bigger problems :^) but the frustration is well understandable |
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| 14:11.45 | nemo | hm. Has anyone documented "upgrading" an ubuntu 14.04 to devuan? |
| 14:11.49 | nemo | It must be possible |
| 14:12.02 | nemo | surely is just a case of switching /etc/apt entries and cleaning up packages |
| 14:13.06 | specing | with btrfs anything is possible ^_^ |
| 14:16.01 | debdog | nemo: a) make a backup; b) try your suggestion; if that fails c)install devuan and merge your configs and files and whatnot from your backup with devuan |
| 14:16.43 | nemo | heh |
| 14:16.44 | nemo | fair 'nuff |
| 14:16.55 | nemo | debdog: was mostly for the 2 work servers that are 14.04 |
| 14:16.59 | nemo | was hoping to do it remotely |
| 14:17.13 | nemo | there's plenty of backups done, but doing restore can be a pain and interrupt things a lot |
| 14:17.20 | nemo | maybe should do a trial run on my laptop |
| 14:17.41 | debdog | I am certain people are interested on your findings |
| 14:17.56 | fsmithred | ubuntu to devuan has been mentioned in here a few times, but I don't know for sure if anyone has done it |
| 14:18.16 | debdog | I sort of doubt it works, but it's certainly worth a trial. on a local machine, of course |
| 14:18.23 | fsmithred | obeardly may have tried it |
| 14:19.36 | fsmithred | Oct. 27: Hurgotron |
| 14:19.36 | fsmithred | fsmithred, gnarface: Just FYI, I did manage a cross-distro upgrade from Ubuntu 12.04 to Devuan over the net. It was ugly as hell, but worked. (Still just a test, though) |
| 14:20.57 | nemo | fsmithred: kk |
| 14:21.05 | nemo | fsmithred: did you document any gotchas by any chance? |
| 14:21.16 | fsmithred | nope |
| 14:21.28 | fsmithred | I just found that by searching the botbot scrollback |
| 14:21.34 | nemo | ah ⺠|
| 14:21.39 | fsmithred | https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=ubuntu |
| 14:21.47 | nemo | nifty |
| 14:22.06 | nemo | long ago I upgraded my home server from mandrake linux to gentoo linux without reboot |
| 14:22.10 | nemo | it was relatively painless at the time |
| 14:22.18 | nemo | you'd think ubuntu/devuan are even closer |
| 14:22.22 | nemo | but who knows these days |
| 14:22.28 | nemo | systems have gotten more complex |
| 14:22.40 | debdog | might depend on services running on the server |
| 14:22.47 | fsmithred | what desktop is on the ubuntu? |
| 14:22.54 | fsmithred | oh, server |
| 14:23.01 | debdog | I hope none (on a server) |
| 14:23.18 | nemo | debdog: mercurial, svn, apache, some apache dependent php apps. there's some other stuff running in my user space like a java app server |
| 14:23.22 | nemo | debdog: that wouldn't need upgrading |
| 14:23.42 | nemo | fsmithred: it *does* have a desktop installed amusingly, on one of the 2 servers - just due to its history ⺠|
| 14:23.49 | nemo | fsmithred: but could be removed with no cost whatsoever |
| 14:23.54 | nemo | I use it sometimes for remote stuff |
| 14:24.09 | fsmithred | which de? |
| 14:24.13 | nemo | ummm |
| 14:24.16 | fsmithred | lol |
| 14:24.17 | nemo | MATE I think |
| 14:24.22 | fsmithred | oh, not bad |
| 14:24.25 | fsmithred | that might work |
| 14:24.51 | fsmithred | 14.04 is approximately jessie? |
| 14:24.55 | nemo | it's kinda funny how this dev server came to be. when I came to this company they gave me half an hour on company laptop as windows Administrator to install all the dev software I needed |
| 14:25.05 | nemo | so I installed Virtualbox and Ubuntu - since ubuntu is fast and easy to setup |
| 14:25.13 | nemo | (ubuntu in vbox) |
| 14:25.25 | fsmithred | fast to set up, not fast to run |
| 14:25.38 | nemo | then half a year later they gave me permission to run my own linux tower, so I copied the vbox image onto the tower |
| 14:25.54 | nemo | desktop that is |
| 14:26.30 | nemo | then onto another desktop pc. then split it off - one image went into the server cluster since people had gotten used to using my machine for dev stuff since they had no linux servers there. |
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| 14:26.53 | nemo | fsmithred: eh. ubuntu can perform pretty well w/ modifications |
| 14:26.58 | nemo | fsmithred: get rid of unity for starters |
| 14:27.35 | fsmithred | I don't remember what the last one had. ubuntu-studio... xfce? |
| 14:28.25 | nemo | https://l3net.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/cmp-all4.png this dude's tests were surprising to me |
| 14:28.32 | fsmithred | so you can clone this and try it. Please report your results |
| 14:28.33 | nemo | for one thing, how well MATE held up against the more minimalist ones |
| 14:30.48 | fsmithred | what are the units on that chart? |
| 14:32.12 | nemo | megabytes |
| 14:32.16 | nemo | RAM |
| 14:32.33 | nemo | fsmithred: he just booted up to desktop in a clean VM image with each of them |
| 14:32.38 | nemo | https://l3net.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/a-memory-comparison-of-light-linux-desktops/ |
| 14:32.41 | nemo | it was a while ago |
| 14:32.48 | nemo | but I doubt that gnome3 and kde have shrunk memory usage much |
| 14:34.49 | fsmithred | I haven't seen xfce below 100mb since squeeze |
| 14:36.44 | nemo | fsmithred: once upon a time, a long while ago, xfce was very lightweight. I used it on my laptop w/ 96MiB of RAM |
| 14:36.54 | nemo | was the only time I ever bothered w/ -Os in gentoo |
| 14:37.07 | nemo | but. yeah. clearly that's no longer a priority |
| 14:38.25 | telst4r | Oh the good old MegaByte days.. |
| 14:39.45 | telst4r | when slackware 10 ran on a 486.. |
| 14:40.56 | nemo | hehe |
| 14:41.08 | nemo | telst4r: I got a surprising amount done on that laptop |
| 14:41.14 | nemo | telst4r: I could even launch seamonkey \o/ |
| 14:41.33 | nemo | telst4r: openoffice was too much for it, but lightweight office software worked fine |
| 14:42.23 | telst4r | I've got IceWeasel 2 compiled on P1 @ 192MB RAM, and it was uzbl! |
| 14:43.19 | nemo | telst4r: I used seamonkey at the time 'cause it gave me mail client too - figured the more things that shared libs, the more efficient the memory usage |
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| 14:45.49 | telst4r | nemo, Ah, the good old Static vs. dynamic libs.. |
| 14:46.30 | nemo | telst4r: just learned about "snap" in #ubuntu |
| 14:46.42 | nemo | I gotta say I'm more on the dynamic side - saves space, memory and makes patching easier |
| 14:46.55 | nemo | although the container thing does make it easier to lock an app down for security |
| 14:48.02 | telst4r | nemo, snap? |
| 14:48.23 | nemo | https://snapcraft.io/ it's this thing ubuntu has been pushing apparently |
| 14:48.48 | nemo | telst4r: kind of an Apple .app thing, or how everyone was forced to install everything on Windows, or Steam's general packaging |
| 14:49.01 | nemo | seems that way anyway |
| 14:49.18 | nemo | just learned about it, but looks like it is mostly containerisation (so some security wins) plus static libs |
| 14:49.31 | telst4r | Ahh. |
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| 16:47.58 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 17:04.28 | squeakypancakes | snap depends on systemd so I dont see it landing in Devuan anytime soon. |
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| 19:13.52 | MinceR | also, snap has a nonfree server side, iirc |
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| 19:36.57 | jehorn | Good day everyone |
| 19:41.05 | msiism | jehorn: hello. |
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