| 00:00.15 | t3chn0 | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports main |
| 00:00.15 | t3chn0 | deb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports main |
| 00:00.18 | t3chn0 | correct? |
| 00:00.34 | gnarface | that's right, t3chn0 |
| 00:00.40 | t3chn0 | thanks guys |
| 00:01.26 | logo4poop_ | i hope this works :x |
| 00:01.30 | gnarface | t3chn0: i wouldn't advise just blind-updating from backports. get what you need from there, and the dependencies, then shut it back off |
| 00:02.10 | gnarface | logo4poop_: you're gonna try it with acpi=off as a kernel boot option, right? |
| 00:02.23 | logo4poop_ | yes |
| 00:02.32 | logo4poop_ | i just pushed tab |
| 00:02.37 | logo4poop_ | then added it on the end |
| 00:02.44 | fsmithred | yup |
| 00:02.46 | logo4poop_ | i hope i did that right |
| 00:03.42 | logo4poop_ | should i do us.deb or deb,? |
| 00:03.45 | logo4poop_ | for repos |
| 00:04.10 | logo4poop_ | or pkgmaster |
| 00:04.24 | fsmithred | I would recommend just using deb.devuan.org |
| 00:04.30 | logo4poop_ | kk |
| 00:04.50 | fsmithred | I'm in the US, and I've seen that I get foreign mirrors often |
| 00:04.59 | fsmithred | I don't think there are many in the us |
| 00:05.25 | logo4poop_ | do i get a option to install kde? |
| 00:05.40 | fsmithred | not sure if that's on the dvd or not |
| 00:05.50 | fsmithred | I know it's an option with a netinstall |
| 00:06.08 | logo4poop_ | i should have gone net |
| 00:06.22 | fsmithred | you have to be able to connect to the network for that |
| 00:06.32 | logo4poop_ | uh oh |
| 00:06.38 | logo4poop_ | i think it froze |
| 00:06.47 | logo4poop_ | at 12 |
| 00:07.10 | fsmithred | it's looking for wifi firmware? |
| 00:07.35 | logo4poop_ | it says it installed ir |
| 00:07.36 | logo4poop_ | it |
| 00:07.39 | t3chn0 | gnarface, thanks |
| 00:07.57 | logo4poop_ | Installed discover, (amd64) |
| 00:11.09 | *** join/#devuan logo4poop (61464653@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.70.70.83) |
| 00:11.17 | logo4poop | sorry back |
| 00:11.44 | logo4poop | i might not do devuan |
| 00:11.52 | logo4poop | it doesnt seem compatible with my system |
| 00:20.07 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@208.53.50.136) |
| 00:20.07 | *** topic/#devuan is Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release | This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | off-topic conversation in #debianfork please | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
| 00:20.08 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
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| 00:29.36 | mdrights[m] | Hi, am wondering if there's a channel for devuan-sdk? |
| 00:31.00 | golinux | You could try #devuan-dev |
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| 01:53.59 | pl43c | avcan |
| 01:54.23 | ponchale | hi |
| 01:55.43 | ponchale | someone connected? |
| 02:05.29 | golinux | ponchale: 250 or so of us. |
| 02:09.02 | ChuangTzu | all enjoying Devuan bliss apparently. ;) |
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| 04:33.44 | ponchale | hi Centurion_Dan |
| 04:33.47 | ponchale | how are you? |
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| 04:45.59 | buZz | nobody connected |
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| 05:57.00 | bozonius | I just installed devuan ascii on my test box (yippee, I have a test box now!). It was murder getting it partitioned the way I wanted, and next time I try this I might use a partitioning tool before doing the install. |
| 05:57.33 | bozonius | the problem I had is that I don't yet have the test box hooked up to internet (project for tomorrow night) |
| 05:58.09 | bozonius | I don't seem to have X11, can't startx |
| 05:58.27 | bozonius | is this normal for a standalone install (i.e., sans internet) |
| 06:00.59 | gnarface | depends on which disk |
| 06:01.55 | gnarface | you need the "xinit" package for startx |
| 06:02.17 | gnarface | which you might not have gotten automatically even if you did get a full X11 install |
| 06:03.19 | gnarface | if you got the CD or DVD sets, it's still on one of those disks... |
| 06:03.28 | gnarface | not sure about the netinstaller (but probably not) |
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| 06:08.11 | bozonius | I did an expert graphical install |
| 06:08.21 | bozonius | I did not see where I could select packages |
| 06:11.41 | gnarface | you can install it after first boot - the default created sources.list in this case should have contained a path to the optical disk |
| 06:12.13 | bozonius | ok, so there is no option to choose specific packages such as xinit during install then |
| 06:12.40 | gnarface | well, there used to be something called dselect |
| 06:12.44 | gnarface | i'm not sure if it's still in there or not |
| 06:12.51 | gnarface | it's way easier to do it after first boot |
| 06:13.20 | gnarface | does the machine have a network device? |
| 06:13.30 | bozonius | sure. I'll do that when I get back on the test box. Right now, I'm working on a different issue. |
| 06:13.54 | bozonius | yes, but the installer complained it might not have a driver for it (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw) |
| 06:14.29 | gnarface | that's firmware |
| 06:14.40 | bozonius | oops. |
| 06:14.49 | bozonius | i Meant that |
| 06:14.52 | bozonius | (what you said) |
| 06:15.02 | gnarface | if it can't find it maybe it's in non-free |
| 06:15.35 | bozonius | thankfully, I have lots of NICs around here... |
| 06:16.29 | gnarface | yes, confirmed, it's in firmware-realtek, in non-free |
| 06:16.47 | gnarface | it might not actually be required |
| 06:16.57 | bozonius | thanks for this info |
| 06:17.00 | gnarface | lots of their devices still work with limited functionality without it |
| 06:17.08 | gnarface | but i can't tell you anything about that specific one |
| 06:17.18 | bozonius | np, gnarface |
| 06:17.24 | bozonius | just thought I'd mention it |
| 06:17.46 | bozonius | the problem there is not the card or the board, it's just that bozonius hasn't hooked up internet yet |
| 06:17.47 | gnarface | typical limitations are that gigabit devices will only run at 100 megabit, and wifi devices will not allow encryption, or only allow wep encryption, etc |
| 06:18.09 | bozonius | WEP |
| 06:18.11 | bozonius | (omg) |
| 06:19.04 | bozonius | had another interesting problem... I mean, if you really wanna hear about it |
| 06:19.33 | bozonius | I have my monitor hooked up to both my regular machine (where most of these fun visits originate from) and my new test box |
| 06:19.50 | bozonius | test box is on D-Sub and the other is on DVI |
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| 06:20.33 | bozonius | somehow, this seems to have knocked out some of the vbox functionality. I have a request for help in over on vbox... seems some tickets were logged about similar issues |
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| 06:21.05 | bozonius | when I switched back to the DVI connection, several VMs had been saved (not killed though) |
| 06:21.41 | bozonius | one ticket out there already said that unplugging a monitor caused vbox to have a panic attack or something |
| 06:22.12 | bozonius | this is a different issue, nothing to do with devuan, just mentioning it |
| 06:22.45 | gnarface | interesting |
| 06:22.50 | gnarface | vbox must react to dpms? |
| 06:22.57 | gnarface | that seems like a weird thing to do |
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| 06:24.55 | gnarface | i wonder if it still happens if you disable dpms |
| 06:25.08 | gnarface | i guess maybe it's reacting to xrandr events instead? |
| 06:25.17 | gnarface | either way, seems weird to me |
| 06:25.44 | bozonius | so it could be related to my switching the two ports |
| 06:25.55 | bozonius | s/switching/switching between/ |
| 06:26.58 | bozonius | wouldn't that be more on the part of the host system? Just asking |
| 06:27.16 | bozonius | Centos 6.9 and no longer in support |
| 06:27.16 | gnarface | you would think so |
| 06:27.41 | bozonius | I mean, not really vbox itself, but the host OS environment |
| 06:28.00 | gnarface | it seems unreasonably bad behavior for vbox to care what the host display does |
| 06:28.04 | bozonius | it's still 2.6.32 kernel... |
| 06:28.17 | gnarface | i admit i have trouble believing it's true |
| 06:28.37 | gnarface | but i've also learned that blaming it on vbox is a safe bet |
| 06:28.37 | bozonius | vbox has its share of interesting facts |
| 06:28.49 | bozonius | LOL. ok |
| 06:29.04 | bozonius | I'll keep that in mind next time I come a-griping |
| 06:29.15 | gnarface | it does the same thing when you unplug the display? |
| 06:29.22 | bozonius | oh, I really don't know |
| 06:29.29 | bozonius | I'm afraid to test too much |
| 06:29.31 | gnarface | it might help to know |
| 06:29.35 | bozonius | yeah... |
| 06:29.49 | bozonius | especially if I plan on doing this into the future. |
| 06:29.57 | bozonius | I do have an old monitor I could use instead |
| 06:30.17 | gnarface | yea, analog connections might be less likely to exhibit this type of behavior... |
| 06:30.20 | bozonius | and avoid this altogether |
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| 06:31.23 | bozonius | monitor is not that old... but it does have a D-sub |
| 06:31.33 | bozonius | no dvi or hdmi |
| 06:31.52 | bozonius | problem is simply... uh |
| 06:31.55 | bozonius | desk space |
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| 06:33.03 | bozonius | also, I'd need a VGA cable that could stretch all the way from the far side of my desk to the compartment, below, on the other side |
| 06:33.11 | bozonius | I could probably make it work |
| 06:33.31 | bozonius | And maybe getting some of this other clutter off my desk wouldn't be so bad anyway |
| 06:35.14 | gnarface | well you shouldn't have to |
| 06:35.32 | gnarface | in a fair world, vbox shouldn't care about the display |
| 06:35.40 | gnarface | or at least should have some way to tell you to shut it off |
| 06:35.42 | bozonius | About a 1/3 of the desk has become my medicine chest |
| 06:36.44 | bozonius | looks like there IS a way to disable dpms |
| 06:37.00 | bozonius | but these people are complaining that they want it ON, not OFF |
| 06:37.13 | gnarface | oh, hmmm |
| 06:37.21 | gnarface | well it was just a guess really |
| 06:37.23 | gnarface | dpms or xrandr |
| 06:37.40 | bozonius | crap... some of these are 10 years old... |
| 06:40.09 | bozonius | https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/virtualbox-5-1-on-14-2-a-4175613422/#post5756942 |
| 06:40.22 | gnarface | i doubt it's worth the trouble, honestly you should just use qemu-kvm instead |
| 06:40.32 | nacelle | virtualbox is poop |
| 06:40.39 | bozonius | note the poster says that code to strip the dpms code is no longer needed |
| 06:41.03 | bozonius | yeah, actually gnarface, I've considered using alpine with kvm to run VMs |
| 06:41.16 | nacelle | its the way to go |
| 06:41.20 | nacelle | you get ksp, etc. |
| 06:41.26 | bozonius | ksp? |
| 06:41.27 | nacelle | (kernel share pages) |
| 06:41.32 | nacelle | shared, even |
| 06:41.45 | gnarface | of course the primary bonus feature is that it actually works |
| 06:42.13 | bozonius | ksp makes me a bit leery... |
| 06:42.16 | nacelle | like, if you're running two vms that are really just copies of the same OS and they load the same libraries, the memory is going to look about the same. |
| 06:42.26 | bozonius | so it is like docker then |
| 06:42.32 | bozonius | containers, not true VMs |
| 06:42.37 | nacelle | no |
| 06:42.40 | bozonius | which is fine if that's what you want to do |
| 06:42.40 | nacelle | its true vms |
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| 06:43.10 | bozonius | how much memory will be saved typically? |
| 06:43.12 | nacelle | vmware has been doing a ksp like thing since version 3 or so |
| 06:43.13 | gnarface | bozonius: it has hardware virtualization support |
| 06:43.13 | nacelle | tons. |
| 06:43.21 | bozonius | I've got 16GB |
| 06:43.32 | bozonius | define tons |
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| 06:43.50 | bozonius | If I were running GoDaddy I'd like that, sure |
| 06:44.25 | bozonius | I mean, I'll look at ksp, but I think for my needs, kvm and qemu would suffice |
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| 06:45.14 | gnarface | sure it doesn't have a nice gui for setup, but the command-line options are a lot more reliable |
| 06:45.14 | bozonius | gnarface, now that I have a test box it will be easier to experiment with new technologies without worrying about corrupting my system I use for real world stuff |
| 06:45.32 | bozonius | actually, there IS a gui of sorts, but I have yet to look at that in depth |
| 06:45.59 | gnarface | well there are probably several 3rd party front-ends |
| 06:46.02 | gnarface | i've only used one and didn't like it |
| 06:46.22 | bozonius | gnarface, I think you are a command line kind of guy |
| 06:46.36 | bozonius | I like the GUIs myself, as long as they are not too complex |
| 06:46.44 | bozonius | there's a point of shrinking returns |
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| 06:48.35 | bozonius | nacelle: I usually run very hetero VMs |
| 06:48.50 | bozonius | not sure how much I'd be saving |
| 06:51.22 | nacelle | you run ksp on top of a qemu/kvm box |
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| 06:51.42 | bozonius | gnarface: I think I shall clear off my desk a bit and place the 2nd monitor and avoid all the drama |
| 06:51.56 | nacelle | basically, without it, you can run vms until you run out of memory, where they allocate all of their memory at run time. |
| 06:51.59 | nacelle | no fun. |
| 06:52.22 | nacelle | so if you want to run 8 2GB VMs on a 16GB box... you can't. you won't have the room for them with the hypervisor. |
| 06:52.30 | nacelle | but, run ksp, and you'll likely have multiple things going on |
| 06:52.47 | nacelle | 1) pages that are duplicate are only stored once, with pointers for the vms that need the pages |
| 06:52.59 | bozonius | nacelle: I get how it works. |
| 06:53.07 | nacelle | 2) pages not in use arent counted against the running total... so you can run a ton of extra VMs |
| 06:53.24 | bozonius | But if the VMs you are running are not identical or even similar how much would it save |
| 06:53.51 | nacelle | they will likely have a small percentage of shared pages, but the bigger savings there is because you can allocate only what you need |
| 06:53.57 | nacelle | its just a setting to flip on and try |
| 06:54.07 | bozonius | sure, and I will. thanks |
| 06:54.28 | bozonius | right now, I've got a problem with the monitor port switching between my test and main boxes |
| 06:54.36 | nacelle | its the big hurdle people have hit in switching to qemu-kvm from vmware/etc. in my experience |
| 06:54.52 | nacelle | https://www.linux-kvm.org/page/KSM |
| 06:54.53 | bozonius | Hurdle? |
| 06:54.53 | nacelle | THERE. |
| 06:54.57 | nacelle | that's the name of it. |
| 06:55.00 | nacelle | right |
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| 06:55.17 | bozonius | doesn't sound like a hurdle to me |
| 06:55.31 | nacelle | on VMware, they could launch 20 vms on the hardware... then they install linux and run qemu-kvm on it and can only launch like 10 of their vms.. and they're like... "WTF?" |
| 06:55.40 | buZz | btw, if you want to run linux VMs , LXC is really good |
| 06:55.41 | nacelle | ok |
| 06:55.53 | buZz | and has way lower demands on resources |
| 06:56.24 | bozonius | LXC testing is on my technology bucket list also... |
| 06:57.11 | bozonius | LXC is probably taking advantage of Unix fork() |
| 06:57.43 | bozonius | so there's no need for bookkeeping all the checksums |
| 07:00.09 | buZz | bozonius: yeah and kernel namespacing etc |
| 07:00.12 | buZz | its quite fancy |
| 07:00.27 | bozonius | right, which is all in the kernel to start with |
| 07:05.51 | bozonius | bedtime for bozonius |
| 07:06.09 | bozonius | thanks gnarface and all who contributed |
| 07:06.10 | buZz | sleep tight |
| 07:06.18 | bozonius | thanks |
| 07:06.32 | gnarface | no problem bozonius, grats on the test machine |
| 07:06.54 | bozonius | I'm psyched! |
| 07:06.58 | gnarface | i think you'll find stuff makes a lot more sense when you start with bare metal |
| 07:07.01 | bozonius | this will be a load of fun |
| 07:07.21 | bozonius | yes, especially when I am not concerned (too much) about corrupting IMPORTANT work |
| 07:07.33 | bozonius | it's been ages since I had a real test box |
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| 09:33.14 | jaromil | buZz: have you tried lxc2 with lxd? |
| 09:33.57 | buZz | i'm using proxmox to manage it for me |
| 09:34.09 | buZz | and keep pushing off of trying to install proxmox on top of devuan |
| 09:34.11 | buZz | :) |
| 09:35.21 | buZz | but i do feel a reinstall coming in future when i move to more HA setup |
| 09:37.36 | jaromil | proxmox supports lxc2 already? |
| 09:38.28 | jaromil | i'm considering it now for the reinstallation of my home server :^P |
| 09:38.43 | jaromil | definitely want to leverage lxc but then something to make it easy to manage would help |
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| 09:56.35 | buZz | i think proxmox still uses lxc1 , couldnt find it, but i'll ask ##proxmox |
| 09:57.44 | buZz | jaromil: fyi, proxmox + containers functions inside of virtualbox, if you wanna try it out |
| 09:57.53 | buZz | just kvm doesnt, last i tried |
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| 10:21.53 | jaromil | ok. my wish: i'd like to run proxmox on bare metal to manage lxc2 containers. or anything else that can do that easily |
| 10:22.05 | jaromil | afaik opennebula doesn't do lxc |
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| 10:42.05 | buZz | hmm, lxc 1.0 will EOL in june 2019 |
| 10:42.14 | buZz | guess proxmox will move to lxc 2.0 before that |
| 10:43.00 | jaromil | hopeso |
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| 13:51.44 | icarious | Hi. How does one opt for devuan to use OpenRC if one takes the deboostrap installation route? |
| 13:52.46 | parazyd | icarious: You can chroot and install openrc manually with apt. |
| 13:53.02 | icarious | parazyd: And installing it will automatically set it as the default? |
| 13:53.15 | parazyd | It'll be the only one. You can have 1 init installed. |
| 13:53.25 | parazyd | It's gonna remove the existing one and replace it with OpenRC> |
| 13:53.29 | icarious | Ok. Thanks |
| 13:53.33 | parazyd | You're welcome. |
| 13:53.47 | parazyd | On another note, does anyone know if wpasupplicant forces having dbus installed? |
| 14:00.28 | KatolaZ | parazyd: it wants libdbus |
| 14:01.13 | parazyd | But not dbus itself? |
| 14:01.54 | icarious | On a side node. Does devuan plans to include https://www.basilisk-browser.org/ as a package? Given not everyone is happy with Firefox Quantum. This could be a "browser-freedom" so to speak |
| 14:03.50 | jaromil | regarding package inclusion, don't ask what DEvuan can do for you, but ask yourself what you can do for Devuan ... :^) |
| 14:04.45 | icarious | jaromil: Was a "Suggestion" before the next freeze. if I could do it for Devuan, I wouldn't actually ask. Not a good packager as such. Besides I use Gentoo. Would just migrade my mother's Debian laptop to Devuan + OpenRC |
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| 14:08.24 | ryuujin | q |
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| 15:59.13 | bozonius | I don't have internet on my test box yet, but devuan ascii does boot... to command line. Tried to install xinit to get x11 -- or what do I need? |
| 16:00.29 | bozonius | btw, this is on REAL hardware this time |
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| 16:09.17 | fsmithred | bozonius, install at least xserver-xorg to get the basics or xorg to get it all. |
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| 16:18.05 | bozonius | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:18.18 | bozonius | the deb cdrom: line is not commented, so it should work |
| 16:19.45 | bozonius | but apt-cache search xserver-org comes up bupkas |
| 16:20.36 | KatolaZ | bozonius: is it a DVD? |
| 16:20.42 | bozonius | unless it is not available on CD |
| 16:20.48 | bozonius | uh... |
| 16:21.15 | bozonius | you know what? |
| 16:21.21 | KatolaZ | bozonius: how many cdroms do you have? |
| 16:21.21 | bozonius | I have netinstall |
| 16:21.25 | KatolaZ | oh |
| 16:21.26 | bozonius | zero |
| 16:21.31 | KatolaZ | then you just have the base system |
| 16:21.31 | bozonius | nvm guys |
| 16:21.33 | KatolaZ | fullstop |
| 16:21.37 | bozonius | yep |
| 16:21.41 | KatolaZ | sorry |
| 16:21.41 | bozonius | nvm, nvm, nvm |
| 16:21.50 | bozonius | has done it again |
| 16:21.52 | KatolaZ | netinst gets only the packages to debootstrap |
| 16:22.00 | bozonius | got it |
| 16:22.07 | fsmithred | can you get a network connection? |
| 16:22.18 | bozonius | I forgot I was using netinstall. Please forgive me. |
| 16:22.39 | bozonius | yes, I can get one, but it is a project and I have to go to a dr appt shortly |
| 16:22.52 | KatolaZ | bozonius: no need to apologize :) |
| 16:23.05 | bozonius | I'm going to ask him about a memory transplant |
| 16:23.18 | bozonius | seriously, just the chiropractor |
| 16:23.23 | fsmithred | whose memories do you want? |
| 16:23.41 | bozonius | no, I want empty, clean, virgin memory fsmithred! |
| 16:23.47 | bozonius | I've got enough of my own |
| 16:24.00 | fsmithred | if you wait long enough, they'll all go away |
| 16:24.14 | bozonius | actually, it seems I don't have to wait long at all... |
| 16:24.40 | bozonius | maybe coffee will help |
| 16:24.44 | bozonius | tells himself |
| 16:24.46 | fsmithred | I know the feeling. Don't forget your appointment |
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| 17:41.37 | g0zzy | Have been used to using the following (on 'standard' Debian) to display message on remote user's screen but nothing appears with the following on Devuan: sudo -H -S -u roger -- pluma /tmp/upd.txt --display=:0.0 |
| 17:48.08 | g0zzy | Sorry - fixed i think. Not sure what the '--' was. When removed, it works |
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| 18:42.14 | rsevero | Hi. I'm trying to install Devuan 2.0 in a brand new AMD Ryzen 2400 G but I'm getting "AMD-Vi: Completion-Wait loop timed out" warnings and eventually kernel panics. Tried with CentOS and got the same problem. Seems to be related to kernel 4.X. Ideas? |
| 18:45.40 | muep_ | I'd suggest trying with some fairly recent distribution to confirm that the hardware works |
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| 18:53.22 | muep_ | especially if the kernel version is older than your motherboard chipset, there will often be trouble |
| 18:54.46 | rsevero | Apparently there is some incompatibility with some 4.x kernels, new AMD systems and IOMMU. For me, disabling IOMMU seems to have done the trick: installation is going on. I will see if after installation, with newest kernel available I can get IOMMU enabled again. |
| 18:55.11 | rsevero | Tried with Devuan 2.0, CentOS 7 and XUbuntu 18.04. All presented the same issue. |
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| 18:56.02 | muep_ | 4.x means a pretty huge range of kernels over many years, including the latest ones |
| 18:56.18 | muep_ | but I would not expect you to get much more success with kernels whose version starts with 3 |
| 18:59.26 | rsevero | As per comments I got in the net, 3.x kernels are fine. I will report back when I finish my installation and update everything. |
| 19:01.32 | muep_ | also 3.x is a huge range of versions |
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| 19:02.25 | logo4poop | i had a issue yesterday and ifixed it |
| 19:02.30 | logo4poop | thanks gnarface |
| 19:02.36 | logo4poop | or whatever your username is |
| 19:02.49 | logo4poop | i fixed it by enabling uefi |
| 19:06.14 | rsevero | muep_: In case you are interested in more info about this issue: https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/amd-gfx/2017-March/006329.html |
| 19:07.12 | muep_ | here to me it does not seem to suggest that it would be specific to having the version number begin with 4 |
| 19:07.50 | muep_ | the change in linux versions from 3.x to 4.x was purely an aesthetic one |
| 19:08.33 | rsevero | Humm, I see that the 4.x kernel info really got you hooked. I was just passing along some info other guy got when trying to pin point this issue. But on the above link you can see a commit id. |
| 19:08.34 | muep_ | I'd read that mail more like "you should try something more recent than 4.10" |
| 19:09.11 | rsevero | Really? It mentions one specific kernel commit. |
| 19:10.16 | muep_ | it might be some other issue, but I really would not expect a brand new ryzen system to work well with a 3.x kernel from three years ago |
| 19:10.16 | rsevero | But anyway, I will see if with the latest devuan 2.0 kernel I can get iommu back and report here. |
| 19:11.37 | muep_ | at least based on my limited experience of supporting corporate linux desktops, old kernel + new hardware is good for keeping the admins busy |
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| 19:20.01 | ponchale | We are a foundation and we use as based Devuan for build an distro different where we promote the use of web apps inheriting the concept of FFOS |
| 19:20.03 | rsevero | muep_: Great advice muep_, thanks. |
| 19:20.29 | ponchale | What can we do to have them published on Devuan's website? |
| 19:20.52 | rsevero | Fully updated devuan 2.0 needs "iommu=soft" kernel parameter to work on Ryzen 2400G with IOMMU enabled in the BIOS. |
| 19:21.16 | rsevero | I will try now with a newer kernel as devuan is installing 4.9.0. |
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| 19:57.42 | golinux | ponchale: A link would be a good start. You talked about this some time ago but I forget the name of the project |
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| 19:58.50 | ponchale | yeah golinux but with centurion and another person that I do not remember well no agreement was reached |
| 19:59.06 | golinux | I looked around for FFOS yesterday when I saw you here and it looked dead |
| 20:00.03 | golinux | Search pulled almost nothing. |
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| 20:01.19 | golinux | It helps to be active on our channels. Just stopping by, making a request and disappearing does not build confidence. |
| 20:01.36 | ponchale | FFOS yeah is dead but Astian OS is live and we seek the support of gitlab |
| 20:01.46 | ponchale | here https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/gitlab-oss/merge_requests/7 |
| 20:03.11 | ponchale | now I send de link of page one moment please |
| 20:07.18 | ponchale | golinux, look please https://www.astian.org/astian-os |
| 20:07.29 | ponchale | and spanish https://www.astian.org/astian-os-es |
| 20:07.55 | ponchale | we seek and now we insist on establishing a strong alliance with Devuan |
| 20:08.55 | golinux | What do you consider an alliance? |
| 20:10.41 | golinux | "Alliance" assumes some sort of participation. |
| 20:11.17 | golinux | I couldn't remember astian. And a FFOS search no longer points to it. |
| 20:13.17 | golinux | I will mention astian at our next Devuan meet and provide the link. |
| 20:16.19 | ponchale | golinux, an alliance where we both benefit, for example, where the Astian foundation helps Devuan's maintenance, not only with a participation but also providing tools such as an official desk for Devuan help in the translation into Spanish and Portuguese among others and Devuan helps us develop our OS and base a sdk based on Devuan's |
| 20:16.41 | ponchale | etc |
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| 20:25.58 | golinux | ponchale |
| 20:26.13 | golinux | Oh he left . . . bummer |
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| 22:02.05 | freem | hi |
| 22:03.32 | freem | where could I ask about things about scripts depending on bash, and not dash? |
| 22:04.22 | nacelle | maybe #bash ? |
| 22:05.21 | freem | I'm speaking about making devuan essential packages not depending on bash, nacelle. |
| 22:05.50 | nacelle | now your question is a bit more clear |
| 22:06.09 | nacelle | that seems appropriate for here |
| 22:06.12 | nacelle | might as well just ask |
| 22:06.57 | freem | I mean, I had a stupid idea few weeks ago, and this was to build a really minimal system. Basically, I realized busybox can do a lot of things, and maybe other tools too, so I'd thought "hey, what about providing them as debian alternatives? this would only help portability right?" |
| 22:08.04 | msiism | freem: you mean poartability between shells? |
| 22:08.08 | freem | I tried to do it myself a bit, but, hacking shell scrtipts of thousands lines is not really easy |
| 22:08.21 | freem | msiism, yes, basically, it's that |
| 22:08.47 | msiism | is ash just a subset of bash? |
| 22:08.59 | freem | in a way, it is |
| 22:09.16 | nacelle | its more like bourne than bash |
| 22:09.33 | nacelle | and for the purpose of your question, it should be no |
| 22:09.33 | freem | but there are differences that are not minor |
| 22:09.42 | msiism | well, bash is a superset of the bourne shell, so. |
| 22:10.05 | msiism | freem: between bash and dash or bash and ash? |
| 22:10.16 | msiism | (load of ash there) |
| 22:10.36 | nacelle | could one reasonably expect bugs if dash where to replace bash in all of the init/etc. scripts? |
| 22:10.47 | nacelle | thats the question, and I believe the answer is yes, one could. |
| 22:10.59 | nacelle | so its a larger undertaking |
| 22:11.04 | freem | nacelle, so, as I think, there is no way atm to guarantee a correct system without bash. It's ok. |
| 22:11.37 | msiism | freem: maybe ask in #debian if there is rule on that |
| 22:11.53 | freem | Actually, I've only noticed the bash sheband in apt and minor packages |
| 22:11.59 | msiism | like that init scripts have to be dash-campatibale to be integrated |
| 22:12.56 | freem | msiism, my main problem about bash dependency is apt, honestly. It's the foundation of Debian |
| 22:13.29 | freem | I have not took enough time to check if the dependency is real though |
| 22:14.30 | msiism | well, the package "apt-get" doesn't dpend on bash, as far as i can see. |
| 22:14.45 | freem | tbh, i would like to build a system that only depends on busybox, and.... well, debian's essentials have more dependencies to bash than devuan |
| 22:15.27 | freem | you are true, but, when you inspect the files, you see that apt shebangs asks for bash |
| 22:15.42 | freem | it was a surprise for myself too |
| 22:16.37 | freem | tbh it's more for sport and system understanding than real work |
| 22:17.30 | freem | udev do include scripts depending on bash, unlike eudev, that's why devuan is more bash-free. |
| 22:17.37 | msiism | freem: is there a speical reason you're you're trying to do that? i mean bash is fat, but busybox is really base. |
| 22:17.51 | freem | msiism, for sport. |
| 22:17.55 | msiism | :D |
| 22:18.23 | freem | I mean, I think it's really fun to tinker with my system to make it more efficient |
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| 22:18.54 | msiism | if you want something more efficent but with still a good deal of functionality, it's probably better to replace bash with ksh |
| 22:19.02 | freem | and, I hope some day I could build a system a decent coder could understand all the code lines |
| 22:19.44 | msiism | using busybox might cause other problems |
| 22:19.48 | freem | maybe, but, is it iso-functionnal with bash, in terms of scripts? |
| 22:20.03 | freem | yeah, but, that's where the fun lies |
| 22:20.31 | msiism | for example, it includes only minimalistic variants of the usual unix utilities. |
| 22:20.36 | freem | I wan't to learn more about my system |
| 22:21.06 | freem | this is true, and a desired goal |
| 22:21.40 | freem | whith a minimal toolset, you can reach better portability |
| 22:21.57 | msiism | so, if you replace gnu coreutils and other gnu tools with busybox, this might cause a whole lot of trouble. |
| 22:21.58 | freem | for example, you could then imagine using another kernel than linux |
| 22:22.17 | msiism | you can use bash in freebsd. |
| 22:22.52 | msiism | you can probably use it on any nix on which it compiles. |
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| 22:23.00 | msiism | i mean, compiles |
| 22:23.01 | freem | I agree, this is only for fun and to allow some interested people to be able to maintain the whole system |
| 22:23.26 | freem | I understand if you think it's silly. After all, it is. |
| 22:23.43 | freem | but I still wanna do it. |
| 22:23.55 | msiism | i don't think it's silly. but i wouldn't do it. (i already have my pet projects :) ) |
| 22:24.14 | msiism | ok then, your aiming for ash compatibility not dash, right? |
| 22:24.35 | freem | I thought debian, or devuan, would be a good base, but, apt itself have some deps, sadly |
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| 22:24.46 | freem | exact |
| 22:25.14 | freem | at least, ash, in a 1st step, dunno what POSIX says about the shell |
| 22:25.41 | msiism | freem: must be in the open groups base specifications. |
| 22:26.13 | freem | I'm almost certain a distro could be built with linux and busybox, which integrates an init system. I'm curiouss about the size it would take |
| 22:26.25 | KatolaZ | freem: ash should be POSIX-compliant AFAIK |
| 22:26.41 | freem | good news |
| 22:26.54 | msiism | freem: alpine linux uses busybox. |
| 22:27.08 | freem | yeah, but not for the init AFAIK |
| 22:27.26 | msiism | i don't remember |
| 22:27.45 | freem | they use OpenRC, and busybox seems to integrate the one I'm a fanboy of, namely, runit. |
| 22:28.29 | freem | nothing wrong here, for sure, but hey, runit is... well, I'm in love with it. |
| 22:29.10 | KatolaZ | freem: the rough plan is to include native support for runit and other inits in Devuan |
| 22:29.22 | KatolaZ | and for other process managers |
| 22:29.22 | freem | I won't force the world to take runit, but, it's simplicity, it's ease of use... |
| 22:29.26 | KatolaZ | like s6 or prep |
| 22:30.46 | freem | KatolaZ, well, then, I could try to give a hand despite my low skills. But, it would be really nice if devuan could reach some old debian's goals: multi-kernels |
| 22:31.39 | msiism | freem: i think that should be possible. only someone would have to maintain it. |
| 22:31.41 | freem | I mean, Debian used to have variants for other kernels, which where abandoned for... hum... reasons I do not know |
| 22:31.54 | msiism | freem: how about systemd as a reason? |
| 22:32.09 | freem | I do not wanna troll, today. |
| 22:32.24 | msiism | freem: you don't have to. |
| 22:32.39 | freem | anyway, I don't care. |
| 22:33.24 | freem | fact is, to close to standards basic tools are, the more probable you can achieve portability. |
| 22:33.37 | *** join/#devuan iiaann (~ian@89.238.143.59) |
| 22:34.33 | freem | apt is not portable since it depends on bash, which is essential mostly for that. It's sad, imo. |
| 22:35.16 | msiism | freem: but how do you know it really depends on bash? |
| 22:35.27 | freem | AFAIR aptitude C++ code is ugly, dpkg is hard as hell to read |
| 22:35.30 | Centurion_Dan | freem: you sure about that? It's not a dependency... |
| 22:35.49 | msiism | freem: have you tried removing bash and using apt? maybe dash does the job as well. |
| 22:35.50 | freem | msiism, I'm not really sure, it just use the shebang |
| 22:36.05 | Centurion_Dan | It seems to me it's written in C++ and python.. |
| 22:36.16 | freem | Centurion_Dan, well, shebangs said it, before hundred lines of code |
| 22:36.43 | msiism | Centurion_Dan: i was wondering about that as well |
| 22:36.54 | msiism | freem: can you name a file? |
| 22:37.02 | freem | I had, in the past, dependency problems with debian, because of my minimal system |
| 22:37.30 | freem | msiism, sure, let me ask my system |
| 22:37.46 | Centurion_Dan | less /usr/bin/apt shows apt is a compiled ELF file... where's the shell script?? |
| 22:39.01 | freem | give me few more minutes please, starting a VM I've installed thtough debootstrap |
| 22:40.36 | freem | but in the meantime, you can do a simple search |
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| 22:41.58 | freem | hum, basically, Centurion_Dan, you only searched about a binary, that says nothing about what this one calls. You would need a grep for that |
| 22:44.37 | msiism | yes, i've done that |
| 22:44.52 | msiism | i've run "for f in $(find . -type f); do grep "bash" "$f"; done" over the extracted .deb package of apt. |
| 22:45.15 | msiism | it finds three bash shebangs |
| 22:45.19 | freem | an easy test for that is, "cd /tmp; mkdir foo; cd foo; apt-get source apt; grep '^#!/bin/bash'" |
| 22:46.40 | freem | that's an interesting result msiism. |
| 22:47.42 | freem | that would mean, that the packages I've found that depend on bash are only the 3 I've noticed myself, which are providing important services. |
| 22:47.44 | msiism | the files are ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/install, ./usr/lib/dpkg/methods/apt/update, ./usr/share/bug/apt/script |
| 22:48.45 | freem | hum. I've found them myself, but I've found others IIRC, 2 or 3 more maybe. |
| 22:49.10 | freem | may I ask you what kind of system you use? |
| 22:50.02 | msiism | here's loop i used to get the file name: http://paste.debian.net/1030723/ |
| 22:50.11 | msiism | freem: i use Devuan ASCII |
| 22:51.08 | freem | sure, but it means just nothing. My colleagues where surprised today, fooled by some appearances, they thought I was using ubuntu |
| 22:51.24 | msiism | well, apt is apt, is it not? |
| 22:51.54 | freem | I mean, do you aim to minimal system? Which DE are you using? etc. |
| 22:52.32 | freem | true, but, could you give me a dpkg --get-selections ? |
| 22:52.50 | freem | this only gives the list of installled packages on the system |
| 22:53.07 | msiism | i aim for minimalism, but not spartanism. ok, let me see |
| 22:53.22 | freem | ty |
| 22:53.23 | msiism | i do have quite some stuff instaleld i never use, though |
| 22:53.37 | freem | as every tinker :) |
| 22:54.52 | freem | I'm grateful for your help |
| 22:56.01 | msiism | here's the list of installed packages from my system: http://paste.debian.net/1030724/ |
| 22:56.12 | freem | there are not that many scripts depending on bash, listing them could help porting them, which in turm might help building more minimal systems, with less hard dependencies |
| 22:56.54 | freem | more thant 2k packages.... are you a coder? |
| 22:58.04 | freem | oh, lot of i386 packages, might divide the real number by almost 2 |
| 22:59.27 | msiism | freem: as for "coding", i'm doing stuff in bash, learing tcl (and beginning to find it awkward) and also look into C sometimes. |
| 22:59.38 | freem | anyway, with that, only 1 package contained the '^#/bin/bash' shebang? Thats surprising, I had at a few more, but yes, not that many |
| 23:00.06 | freem | it's enough to me to consider you as a coder |
| 23:00.10 | msiism | freem: i think you need to think about what you are searching for first. |
| 23:00.30 | msiism | freem: i call it scripting or programming, though ;) |
| 23:00.53 | freem | I had more data sunday, but, can't remember how I gathered them on my system |
| 23:00.55 | msiism | freem: the 3 files i found are apt of Debian's apt package |
| 23:01.07 | msiism | part of... |
| 23:01.18 | freem | yes, apt was the major one dependent package |
| 23:02.30 | freem | To reach my goal, I'll have to read the apt's file to check if they really need bash |
| 23:02.49 | msiism | if you want a minimal system, you should probably first draw up a package list. |
| 23:03.06 | freem | yeah, this, I've already done, partially |
| 23:04.21 | freem | fact is, installing busybox replaces a lot of packages, but needs some manual interventions ( like 'ln -s /bin/busybox /usr/local/bin/my_exec' |
| 23:04.56 | freem | this is something I'd like to change. Minor contribution, but.... |
| 23:05.11 | msiism | why do you need the link? |
| 23:05.46 | freem | the link would be a 1st step to providing system alternatives |
| 23:06.36 | freem | for example, if less is not installed but busybox is, you use less, where 'busybox less' would be more useful |
| 23:06.54 | freem | on the other hand, busybox is an alien |
| 23:07.54 | freem | using the 1st argument as commant name (instead of 0rd).... they may be the 1st one to do that. |
| 23:08.51 | freem | that approach is well suited to some of the uses I might have at work, and, it's also pretty interesting |
| 23:09.14 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.21.141) |
| 23:09.43 | msiism | freem: ok, i see. so, you'd have to alias everything to make it work like a usual linux system? |
| 23:10.26 | msiism | but then, if your shell was ash, wouldn't it do that automatically? |
| 23:10.27 | freem | export, and alias |
| 23:11.34 | freem | well, I'm not skilled enough to be exact, but it seems that, when using busybox ash, some commands are built-ins |
| 23:12.22 | freem | for reference about perfs https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2010/vortraege/shortpaper/308_stali.pdf might be interesting to see the other point of view |
| 23:12.40 | freem | I don't say I agree. |
| 23:13.34 | msiism | freem: i think that using busybox only really makes sense when you really use just that, so ash would be your default shell and all the tools provided by busybox. |
| 23:13.45 | freem | tbh, I'd like a distro that is based on releases, but that would be hacker centric |
| 23:13.59 | msiism | ? |
| 23:14.25 | msiism | well, stali is hacker-centric for sure :) |
| 23:14.41 | freem | msiism, then, you forgot all the times you break your system and do not know how to use that damned busybox that do not even have manpages |
| 23:15.10 | freem | stali is a bit too much for me atm :) |
| 23:15.32 | msiism | freem: well, but wanting to use busybox, you've been asking for that. |
| 23:15.59 | freem | but I'd love a distro that says "hey, all my code is ready to be read", instead of "hey, my code is FOSS". |
| 23:16.22 | msiism | the thing is that busybox, as you well know, is not just a shell, but a whole suite of userspace tools (if that's the correct term). |
| 23:16.28 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 23:16.51 | freem | msiism, no, I discovered that when playing with debian, and had broken my system |
| 23:17.21 | freem | I was then defenseless with the debian's castrated busybox |
| 23:17.42 | msiism | freem: which parts of the code contained in devuan are not ready to be read (except non-free, i mean)? |
| 23:18.16 | freem | even recently, I've discovered that debian's doc about busybox is not synced with real features |
| 23:18.33 | msiism | freem: maybe because it ships an older version. |
| 23:19.44 | freem | msiism, I have not say it the way I thought it. I wanted to say, a system that all code would be eventually maintainable by a little team |
| 23:20.11 | freem | msiism, no, not only an old version, but flags are patched |
| 23:20.44 | freem | compilation flags are patched, but do not reflect in doc |
| 23:21.41 | freem | an example is cron (and it's example crontab), that do not support the @stuff, in practice, but in manpages they do |
| 23:22.11 | msiism | freem: ok, i don't know anything about that. |
| 23:22.18 | freem | no problem |
| 23:22.53 | msiism | just as a hint (if it's allowed in here...): if you want unpatched packages, have a look at slackware. |
| 23:22.54 | freem | those things are ones I"ve discovered by pratice, trying to build an embedded system |
| 23:23.04 | msiism | ok, i see |
| 23:23.40 | freem | slackware interests me a lot, but, I fear I'm not skilled enough |
| 23:24.14 | msiism | they have pretty decent docs... |
| 23:24.22 | msiism | freem: btw, you were asking about my desktop setup earlier. i use openbox. |
| 23:25.01 | freem | openbox is only a wm, so I assume you use your own set of tools with it? |
| 23:26.01 | msiism | well, the combination is my own, not the tools themselves. but that's what you meant, i guess. so, yes. |
| 23:26.25 | msiism | i've recently also found ctwm to be worth a try. |
| 23:28.20 | freem | ctwm? What are it's selling points? |
| 23:28.47 | msiism | 1. it look reasonably old-school-weird. |
| 23:29.17 | msiism | 2. it's based on twm. |
| 23:29.18 | freem | I mean, I'm using a tiling wm, so I don't care about appearance, but i do care about ease of use |
| 23:30.04 | msiism | 3. it does have some unique concepts of how window resizinf i handled (but maybe they are from twm, i don't know) |
| 23:30.09 | freem | based on twm, the software? This include the built-in config? |
| 23:31.28 | msiism | yes, twm, the wm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twm). as for the config, i don't know. probably parts of it. |
| 23:32.17 | msiism | thinks twm is actually short for "the window manager" |
| 23:35.25 | freem | I think I remember another wm named twm that stands for tiling window manager, with fully compiled in config |
| 23:36.21 | freem | I know C, C++ and more, but, to be honest, hacking code to change setup is too much effort for me. Also, I hate macros. |
| 23:36.51 | msiism | freem: suckless.org people have a tiling wm, iirc. |
| 23:37.44 | freem | msiism, yes, but,as I said, I hate macros, and suckless guys write code that sucks more than needed on that point of view |
| 23:39.29 | freem | I have the luck at work to be the only one who know about how macros can help. I hide their mechanics as much as possible, because it's a that huge pain to debug code that include macros |
| 23:42.13 | msiism | i see. don't have any experience in that area, however. |
| 23:42.33 | *** join/#devuan minnesotags (~herbgarci@c-24-118-22-254.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 23:42.37 | freem | back to the subject, is devuan aiming at supporting other kernels or systems different than GNU? |
| 23:42.51 | freem | msiism, you lucky guy |
| 23:43.07 | *** join/#devuan Xenguy (~Xenguy@unaffiliated/xenguy) |
| 23:43.22 | freem | powerful tools tend to be misused |
| 23:43.29 | msiism | freem: it's not blocking any efforts int hat direction. |
| 23:43.34 | freem | macros and templates are powerful. |
| 23:44.04 | freem | not enough manpower is the only condition then? |
| 23:44.19 | msiism | possibilities of Devuan/Hurd and Devuan/kFreeBSD have been discussed at the dev meeting occasionally. |
| 23:44.40 | freem | do you know anything about that? |
| 23:44.44 | *** join/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-63-155.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 23:44.54 | msiism | afaik, there a open doors there if anyone wants to walk in. |
| 23:46.04 | freem | maybe an irc chan, a mailing list or a wiki to try? |
| 23:46.23 | msiism | this might interest you: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180622.210705.91ccb8e8.en.html |
| 23:46.47 | msiism | freem: well, devuan has all that already. |
| 23:48.29 | freem | true, but, it's not really advertised |
| 23:48.44 | msiism | freem: paragraph 6 in the e-mail linked above, btw. |
| 23:48.58 | freem | I know about IRC and other stuff because I more than 20 years old... |
| 23:49.05 | msiism | :D |
| 23:49.08 | freem | I'm still reading it |
| 23:49.21 | freem | a funny passage is |
| 23:49.39 | freem | the most important thing is to not repeat the same error that |
| 23:49.39 | freem | Debian does: to not rule out manuals licensed with invariant sections. |
| 23:49.54 | freem | it's not debian that did this, but FSF! |
| 23:50.09 | msiism | you need to remove the second "not", i think |
| 23:50.32 | msiism | freem: how do you mean? |
| 23:51.14 | freem | It's FSF that is against DFSG rules by using a closed licence on doc |
| 23:52.18 | msiism | well, they use CC or GFDL, afaik. |
| 23:52.26 | freem | DFSG says that that all free softwares should be free as in free beer, free as in free speech, and fully modifiable AFAIR |
| 23:52.31 | *** join/#devuan clemens3_ (~clemens@80-218-38-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 23:53.06 | freem | GFDL is *not* fully modifiable, and thus, not free IIRC |
| 23:54.02 | msiism | well, generally, it's a pain to read. |
| 23:54.21 | freem | exact. |
| 23:54.36 | freem | f we tolerate that manuals can have SOME invariant |
| 23:54.36 | freem | sections, especially for sections covering ethical aspects rather than |
| 23:54.36 | freem | technical ones |
| 23:54.44 | freem | I just can't agree with that |
| 23:54.57 | freem | ethical? What is that? |
| 23:55.04 | msiism | well, that's GNU. they're on mission and want to communicate that. |
| 23:55.30 | freem | yeah, but I'm an open source follower, not an FSF one? |
| 23:55.37 | msiism | but i think that should not hold devuan back from including valuable documentation. |
| 23:56.01 | msiism | i can live with some invariant section if the docs are decent |
| 23:56.07 | freem | Debian do include doc that does not fit the rules. Just, not by default. |
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| 23:57.50 | msiism | that might be one reason why it's missing the findutils documentation (i'll have to find that out) |
| 23:58.06 | freem | FSF forbid using non-free softwares while they provided non-free licences. Debian only integrates real FOSS stuff in main repo, but can provide non-free stuff in non-free repos, and that's the reason FSF does not recommend using it |
| 23:58.16 | freem | heh |
| 23:58.42 | *** part/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-63-155.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 23:58.52 | freem | seriously, the info command is so hard to use that having it installed won't do you any good. |
| 23:59.08 | freem | I tried it. |
| 23:59.25 | msiism | freem: "off the record": i never use info. ;) but others might do. |
| 23:59.40 | freem | I pity them |