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| 00:57.49 | frabbit | ok i have 2 new problems here on two different computers, with different setups of devuan 2.1 |
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| 00:59.18 | frabbit | 1. i purged iptables yesterday from my computer and installed nftables. after boot i normally run a script that contains "ifup -v eth0" to bring up the connection i wrote in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 01:00.21 | frabbit | this time it ends up with "ifup failed to bring up eth0" and some notce about firewall scripts from iptables that couldnt be found |
| 01:00.40 | frabbit | but i could run apt update and now im here... o_= |
| 01:01.08 | frabbit | if i run ifdown i get eth0 is not configured... |
| 01:01.58 | frabbit | does nftables not use the interface file? does it bring up a available connection automatically while booting? |
| 01:03.14 | frabbit | theres no dhcp here or something like that. and theres no hotplug in interfaces (but even if, that doesnt matter at all, cause interfaces seems to be ignored by that inknown thing that brings my connection up...) |
| 01:03.27 | frabbit | *unknown |
| 01:03.46 | frabbit | thats my first problem |
| 01:05.18 | frabbit | 2. on the other computer running minmal xfce and other beginner stuff, it often crashes after login to a xfce4 session via slim, but only since ive installed wlan stuff |
| 01:05.31 | gnarface | well, when i use iptables, i have to set up my own scripts to start it, so my guess is you installed something to do that for you and forgot to remove it, and that's what is choking, probably |
| 01:05.31 | Oksana | 1. No idea. https://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Moving_from_iptables_to_nftables No idea. |
| 01:05.57 | frabbit | i installed the open firmware driver for atheros, wireless-tools wpasupplicant and wicd-gtk |
| 01:07.03 | frabbit | yesterday i tried to figured out what causes this crash and i rollback the system to the point before io installed the wlan packages |
| 01:08.15 | frabbit | i installed one packages after the other and made a reboot after every single package. i first thought it was wicd-gtk, but it worked after that too... but last evening and now (i was testing again) it crashes again... |
| 01:08.20 | gnarface | for #2 you're gonna have to get an error message or something at least |
| 01:08.34 | gnarface | or maybe try to get wifi up without the gui on that one, see if it still crashes |
| 01:09.05 | frabbit | it wont if i get wifi up with wicd-gtk ive tested that several times |
| 01:09.13 | frabbit | yeah i check x logs |
| 01:09.58 | frabbit | for #1: i didnt know that i have to do something while changing... i had never configured anything manually in iptables... |
| 01:10.14 | gnarface | certainly you must have installed some front-end for it |
| 01:10.28 | frabbit | for iptabels? |
| 01:10.32 | gnarface | yes |
| 01:10.51 | gnarface | otherwise you would have had to write the iptables commands yourself by hand and add them to your init by hand somehow |
| 01:10.56 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:11.07 | frabbit | cant remember why i should do this, ive never get into that iptables stuff before... |
| 01:11.20 | gnarface | what does this show you? dpkg -l |grep iptable |
| 01:11.51 | frabbit | nothing |
| 01:12.33 | frabbit | looks atm what frontends are there for iptables |
| 01:13.19 | frabbit | i didnt installed any of the ones listed here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iptables#Frontends |
| 01:13.26 | frabbit | and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iptables#Front-ends |
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| 01:14.05 | frabbit | i remeber to installed apparmor in the past, because i wanted to learn that stuff but delayed it since now. but thats something different |
| 01:14.11 | gnarface | well, what gives you that error at startup? certainly it originated from something in /etc/init.d/ |
| 01:14.13 | frabbit | *remember |
| 01:15.02 | frabbit | ah forgot to notic, because i was in panic nftables broke my inet connection so irunned my script again adn it begins with reset && |
| 01:15.10 | frabbit | *notice |
| 01:15.23 | gnarface | that's a really important detail |
| 01:15.25 | frabbit | but i look if i can find output |
| 01:15.29 | gnarface | not just for this, but for every time it happens |
| 01:15.47 | gnarface | startup errors are going to almost 100% come from either the kernel itself or one of the services |
| 01:15.48 | frabbit | ah its probably in dmesg |
| 01:16.38 | gnarface | yes, other notable spots though: /var/log/syslog, /var/log/daemon.log, and /var/log/kern.log |
| 01:17.04 | gnarface | or really just anything in /var/log/ should be suspect until you know what it is for |
| 01:17.22 | gnarface | that directory is there for you, for exactly situations like this |
| 01:17.22 | frabbit | in dmesg its just abot bringing up etho via ipv6? o_0 |
| 01:17.27 | frabbit | *about |
| 01:17.45 | gnarface | there's every possibility ipv6 could have something to do with this |
| 01:18.19 | gnarface | maybe that's the gotcha - something about a difference in how iptables and nftables handle ipv6 |
| 01:18.44 | frabbit | in /var/log/syslog is the same as in dmesg |
| 01:18.52 | frabbit | checking other two |
| 01:18.54 | gnarface | it should be, mostly. that's expected |
| 01:18.56 | frabbit | *logs |
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| 01:19.04 | gnarface | there should be a lot of overlap in syslog, dmesg, and kern.log |
| 01:19.28 | gnarface | daemon.log is more about what happens to the services after boot |
| 01:20.21 | frabbit | in /var/log/daemon.log only about gpm (terminal mouse) and lvmetad, is the last one important for that issue? |
| 01:20.54 | gnarface | uh... no idea. never heard of lvmetad. (i think now though you probably know why i'd do something like advise you to still use iptables despite what Debian's wiki suggests, though) |
| 01:20.57 | frabbit | in /var/log/kern.log the same as in dmesg again |
| 01:21.26 | frabbit | gnarface: huh? debian changed too nftables since buster |
| 01:22.00 | gnarface | don't "huh?" me. the justification for my rationale is right under your nose. if it were any closer it would bite you. |
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| 01:26.23 | frabbit | is huh a bad word? |
| 01:27.27 | frabbit | 9i thought its like "Hä?" i german but "Hä?" is "Eh?" in english... |
| 01:28.15 | frabbit | hmm.. but it is too: https://www.dict.cc/?s=Huh |
| 01:29.41 | frabbit | so no bad word here |
| 01:29.55 | frabbit | ok so it has something to do with ipv6 |
| 01:36.01 | frabbit | hm.. so nftables brought up a connection via ipv6 here? ive checked my publich ip and it is ipv4 like in the past... |
| 01:36.13 | frabbit | *public |
| 01:37.27 | gnarface | no it's not that "huh?" is a bad word, it's just that i've repeatedly reiterated that iptables has more testing in the wild, and that switching to nftables might bring unforseen compatibility issues. i'm not insulted by the word "huh?" i'm insulted that you are failing to hear me say "i told you so." |
| 01:38.02 | gnarface | i don't know specifically what's wrong with nftables here, i just vaguely remember testing it and immediately going back to iptables because it didn't work for whatever i was doing. |
| 01:38.22 | gnarface | admittedly that was many years ago, but i'm not seeing any evidence presented by you that the situation has changed |
| 01:38.57 | frabbit | i did read that |
| 01:39.18 | gnarface | and no, i'm not some sort of iptables fanboy. i hate it too. BSD has done this far better with packetfilter |
| 01:39.45 | frabbit | but im not a man who went back to something in the past when something new causes issues... except they are unsolveable |
| 01:39.51 | gnarface | but when you introduce unknowns, you inherently introduce unquantifiable risk |
| 01:40.11 | frabbit | i didnt say that you are a fanboy... o_0 |
| 01:40.52 | gnarface | and i didn't accuse you of that. i just want to make it clear for other readers, because if they've read the last 2 days of scrollback they might mistakenly think i'm trying to defend iptables or something |
| 01:41.03 | frabbit | i didnt even know that (as far as i can read in ur answer) that theres a fan against fans war or something between iptables and nftables... |
| 01:41.43 | gnarface | people are clannish, to some degree it is natural |
| 01:41.47 | frabbit | i dont hat iptables ive never worked with it before, i just read yesterday, that debian changed to nftables, because its mor easy to use and stuff like that... |
| 01:42.11 | frabbit | gnarface: those people are stupid ;) |
| 01:42.12 | gnarface | sure, but clearly actually changing your stuff to it isn't quite the drop-in replacement they sold you on |
| 01:42.22 | gnarface | and that was my experience too |
| 01:42.37 | gnarface | sorry i can't remember more specifics |
| 01:42.38 | frabbit | gnarface: o i couldnt knoew that =( |
| 01:42.44 | frabbit | gnarface: np |
| 01:42.53 | frabbit | *knew |
| 01:43.34 | gnarface | i've basically pointed you in the direction i'd look to figure out what was happening, that's the best i can do right now |
| 01:43.47 | gnarface | most likely someone with more nftables experience has already run into this and can tell you a simple fix |
| 01:44.04 | frabbit | ive met some people too who bashed me for using a non systemd distro. thats stupid! i can use what i want and they too, so everyone can be happy whats wrong with those people?... |
| 01:44.27 | gnarface | it's a discusson for #debianfork |
| 01:44.32 | frabbit | yes =) |
| 01:44.43 | frabbit | ok btt |
| 01:45.28 | frabbit | so u used nftables in the past and got problems with it. did u find it harder to use too or something, harder to learn? |
| 01:47.15 | gnarface | no, it was a situation just like this. i tried to upgrade because i read somewhere it was new and better, but it couldn't readily prove that to me within the time i had allocated for the task so i reverted. |
| 01:48.16 | gnarface | when you do a lot of years of sysadmin work, you eventually learn to equate all change with risk, so when you find something that works, you just stick with it as long as possible. and situations like this are what teaches you that. |
| 01:48.18 | frabbit | ok |
| 01:48.51 | frabbit | gnarface: oh no i know that and im not a sysadmin! =D |
| 01:49.05 | frabbit | thats fact 4 all parts of life |
| 01:49.05 | gnarface | so, to be clear, i do encourage you to spend as much time figuring this out as possible, but when you're out of time and you just need it to work, remember i advised you just stick with what already worked |
| 01:50.05 | gnarface | the only material benefit of nftables is that it's supposed to be easier to use... but it failing to work out of the box on a working configuration sortof belies that |
| 01:50.34 | gnarface | so you gotta ask yourself what is the priority goal here? to learn nftables, or to get a working firewall... |
| 01:50.40 | mason | nftables does some stuff that iptables couldn't, catching Linux up to where the BSDs were in the 90s. For instance, you can address packet options with nftables. |
| 01:51.01 | frabbit | gnarface: i have already purged it and installed iptables again ;) |
| 01:51.30 | gnarface | frabbit: well, make sure it works once again and some config didn't get corrupted |
| 01:51.48 | frabbit | gnarface: i dunno how to check this... =( |
| 01:51.51 | gnarface | mason: can't you do that with some iptables extensions now though? |
| 01:52.13 | gnarface | frabbit: well then how did you know it was even working before???? |
| 01:52.21 | mason | gnarface: Maybe. Unsure. I remember having to give up things like "drop all fragments" when I moved from ipf to iptables aeons ago. |
| 01:52.32 | frabbit | gnarface: i do not and i didnt say that |
| 01:52.47 | gnarface | mason: oh, hmm. i admit that's something i only have done on BSD |
| 01:53.04 | frabbit | i just got iptabels error and automatically network connection without running my script first to set eth0 up |
| 01:53.42 | gnarface | frabbit: you really gotta figure out what's going on in your boot up |
| 01:54.06 | frabbit | gnarface: what do u mean? |
| 01:54.23 | gnarface | frabbit: i mean, this should be simple to figure out where that error is coming from exactly |
| 01:54.47 | gnarface | frabbit: the whole point of the sysv init is that it's supposed to be transparent to the administrator |
| 01:54.57 | frabbit | i just remember that it could find (or bring up?) firewall090 or something |
| 01:55.15 | gnarface | like as a named device? |
| 01:55.22 | gnarface | that really sounds like something you installed had to do that |
| 01:55.23 | frabbit | i dunno... =( |
| 01:55.40 | gnarface | you didn't just copy any configs from elsewhere, did you? |
| 01:55.44 | frabbit | no |
| 01:55.55 | gnarface | it's gotta be from a package you installed then |
| 01:56.18 | frabbit | i didnt do anything except purging iptables with my purging script and apt install nftables thats all |
| 01:56.20 | gnarface | maybe try "dpkg -l |grep firewall" ? |
| 01:56.26 | frabbit | ok |
| 01:56.47 | frabbit | no output |
| 01:56.57 | gnarface | hmm. |
| 01:57.09 | gnarface | try other keywords besides firewall? |
| 01:57.18 | gnarface | anything that comes to mind that might be suspicious? |
| 01:57.29 | frabbit | errm.. |
| 01:57.38 | frabbit | you mean a placeholder like * |
| 01:57.50 | gnarface | well if you want to see the whole list just run: dpkg -l |
| 01:57.59 | gnarface | that's every installed package |
| 01:58.03 | frabbit | yeah that what i know |
| 01:58.11 | frabbit | and then looking for firewall? |
| 01:58.28 | gnarface | or anything that looks like it might be the source of that error |
| 01:58.37 | frabbit | o_0 how could i know |
| 01:58.48 | frabbit | but wait |
| 01:58.48 | gnarface | string matching |
| 01:59.05 | frabbit | you say theres might a package left from nftables? |
| 01:59.19 | gnarface | no, that's not what i'm saying |
| 01:59.19 | frabbit | otr it brought one with its installation? |
| 01:59.23 | frabbit | oh... |
| 02:00.12 | gnarface | what i'm saying is i think somewhere you must have brought in iptables scripts you didn't expect to have |
| 02:00.25 | gnarface | that's my guess based on the error you are reporting anyway |
| 02:00.45 | gnarface | and i don't have them even where i'm running iptables, so i'm just as in the dark as you on this |
| 02:01.23 | frabbit | =( |
| 02:02.07 | gnarface | i've gotta eat, but i'll probably be back later |
| 02:02.09 | frabbit | i wil reboot now to see if my connection setup will work again like before now that ive removed nftables |
| 02:02.15 | frabbit | *will |
| 02:02.16 | gnarface | good luck |
| 02:02.24 | frabbit | thx |
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| 02:09.54 | frabbit | gnarface: works like before! => |
| 02:10.22 | frabbit | ill paste the output of my script that i run for connecting and update |
| 02:11.00 | frabbit | theres about that iptables stuff that doesnt worked with nftables (of course now theres no error) |
| 02:13.03 | frabbit | https://paste.debian.net/ is unavailable |
| 02:13.10 | frabbit | so ill use paste2 |
| 02:13.46 | frabbit | https://paste2.org/V3UCH6Zm |
| 02:14.28 | frabbit | these run-parts things werent working with nftables and ifup as i explained before |
| 02:20.30 | frabbit | however... |
| 02:20.40 | frabbit | my problem number 2 |
| 02:21.53 | frabbit | i ve looked at .xsession-errors but that fikle is uge... >50K lines... on my computer ive a script that make my get rid of these files, empty them or what ever, but on that other computer the user doesnt run any scripts (manually) |
| 02:22.49 | frabbit | maybe best to do is to clear these logs first and reboot that often (and clear the logs again...) as it takes that this issue shows up again (as i said sometimes it just works...) |
| 02:28.33 | plasma41 | frabbit: I had issues with the .xsession-errors growing at an alarming rate recently after installing a bunch of updates. I haven't been able to pinpoint the cause, but running `> ~/.xsession-errors` from the shell will at least truncate the file size back to zero. Not a permanent solution, but allows you to recover disk space until you can reboot. |
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| 02:56.47 | frabbit | plasma41: =D i can imagine that. ive wrote a script a few minutes a ago that just "echo "" > ~/foobar" "rm -r ~/foobar" logs cache and stuff |
| 02:57.28 | frabbit | so about problem number 2: only slim gave me a log |
| 02:57.32 | frabbit | error by signal 1 |
| 02:58.16 | frabbit | but i start the computer again atm, cause it freezes after i runned service slim stop and then changed to tty7 |
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| 03:31.11 | frabbit | so i thinks its slim what causes this problem. i log in at slim, then screen stays black. all logs are empty except /var/log/slim.log: https://paste2.org/gAnfXa3j |
| 03:31.17 | frabbit | *think |
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| 03:33.10 | frabbit | otr better slim in connection with some wireless packages, probably wicd-gtk |
| 03:33.13 | frabbit | *or |
| 03:33.35 | frabbit | because thats only since ive installed them (and i didnt installed anything else...) |
| 03:33.53 | frabbit | or change anything else in config or something |
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| 04:09.57 | frabbit | theres another weird thing here: the hostname is displayed as "USERNAME@unknownfoobar" in tty and graphical terminalemulator, but running hostname give me the correct hostname as output, also the hostname files contain it... |
| 04:29.07 | frabbit | cant find anything about that hostname thing... |
| 04:29.36 | frabbit | ah wait! |
| 04:30.02 | frabbit | is it because it is the same hostname on both machines and theyre running on same network? |
| 04:30.14 | frabbit | man probably thats it right? |
| 04:30.30 | frabbit | but they have both different ips... |
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| 04:39.08 | frabbit | ok i changed that now its solved now unknown host something any mor |
| 04:39.32 | frabbit | but could that caused that issues with slim / display whatever? |
| 04:40.01 | frabbit | probably not because the hostnames are the same since months.... |
| 04:40.23 | frabbit | and the slim issue is only since these wlan packages are installed |
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| 05:30.09 | gnarface | frabbit: slim has been known to have problems with some graphics drivers |
| 05:30.19 | gnarface | frabbit: it's completely possible |
| 05:30.50 | gnarface | frabbit: (i think it enables compositing by default) |
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| 05:46.30 | frabbit | gnarface: ok. but it is weird that this issue is only since i installed that wlan stuff... |
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| 05:48.09 | gnarface | frabbit: it's weird but possible in cases like this, but probably if you tested lots of other programs using the same gui toolkit you'd notice some of them occasionally causing the same problem |
| 05:48.55 | gnarface | frabbit: but that also would probably be something you could find other bug reports about (slim + particular drivers/kernels) |
| 05:50.26 | gnarface | frabbit: trying something other than slim would be a good test, too. but if i were you i'd check on the graphics driver possibility first |
| 05:51.10 | gnarface | frabbit: to be clear though, i didn't actually look at anything you put on paste2.org |
| 05:51.20 | frabbit | ah yeah.. theres xdg i think |
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| 05:51.42 | gnarface | i think you mean xdm |
| 05:51.51 | gnarface | yea, i use that one |
| 05:51.58 | gnarface | i mean, i've used it |
| 05:52.03 | frabbit | or xdm |
| 05:52.10 | frabbit | gnarface: and now? |
| 05:52.31 | frabbit | no dm any more? |
| 05:53.04 | gnarface | well, what i mean is i usually avoid a graphical login, but xdm is the one i resorted to before when i had to setup a shared console with someone |
| 05:53.25 | frabbit | yeah me too |
| 05:53.32 | frabbit | but its not my computer |
| 05:53.40 | gnarface | because, iirc, the default one couldn't handle dual monitors gracefully if they weren't both always on |
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| 05:54.06 | frabbit | i mean i wouldnt install any dm if theres wasnt this "time out" thing on tty login: after some time it resets |
| 05:54.26 | gnarface | uh... that timeout issue is probably dns/hostname related |
| 05:54.42 | frabbit | and for older personsn or chidren this can be a problem, because they cannot type so fast eventually |
| 05:54.54 | frabbit | gnarface: oh! |
| 05:54.59 | gnarface | no, probably not what you speculated earlier that you were reusing a hostname, since like you said the IP addresses were different, but i still suspect you made a mistake in there somewhere |
| 05:55.03 | frabbit | what do u mean |
| 05:55.27 | gnarface | i just remember there could be some weird timeouts introduced if you fuck up your /etc/hosts and you're not backing it up with a fully configured local DNS |
| 05:55.38 | gnarface | like, make sure you have 127.0.0.1 defined to localhost in there |
| 05:55.40 | gnarface | or shit gets weird |
| 05:55.59 | frabbit | this is tehre |
| 05:56.03 | frabbit | *there |
| 05:56.32 | gnarface | ok, just making sure |
| 05:56.49 | frabbit | i never change that file except for changing the hostname |
| 05:56.54 | frabbit | ok ;) |
| 05:56.59 | gnarface | re-reading what you just typed i think you're talking about a different type of time-out than i was thinking |
| 05:57.12 | frabbit | hm? |
| 05:57.45 | gnarface | like a long delay loading the prompt |
| 05:57.57 | frabbit | i mean when u wait to long the tty resets and u need to beginn again with typing in ur login name |
| 05:58.04 | frabbit | *wait to long at login |
| 05:58.09 | gnarface | oh, yea i misunderstood. nevermind then |
| 05:58.14 | frabbit | oh ok |
| 05:58.20 | frabbit | but u know that? |
| 05:58.22 | gnarface | xdm is unambitious, graphically. it should work with anything |
| 05:58.45 | gnarface | i did not know that slim had a login timeout but i'm not surprised |
| 05:58.54 | frabbit | no i mean the tty |
| 05:59.05 | frabbit | when u have black screnn and just login mask |
| 05:59.26 | gnarface | hmm, i'm not sure i've seen that but honestly i've never tried leaving a half-typed in username there and come back to it hours or days later |
| 05:59.28 | frabbit | "localhost login:" |
| 05:59.39 | gnarface | it might be something optional you've added |
| 05:59.50 | frabbit | no thats not hours, thats often in under a minute! |
| 06:00.01 | gnarface | interesting |
| 06:00.03 | gnarface | maybe it's new |
| 06:00.05 | frabbit | i havent added anything |
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| 06:00.19 | frabbit | can remember when that wasnt... |
| 06:00.52 | gnarface | i can't remember actually testing that |
| 06:00.56 | frabbit | it annoys me always when i begin loggin in on tty zears ago and had bad long passphrases |
| 06:02.07 | frabbit | but there must be some config or something to remove this mechanic or gain the time till it resets |
| 06:02.13 | frabbit | or not? |
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| 06:02.37 | gnarface | well, it's open source |
| 06:02.42 | frabbit | =D |
| 06:02.44 | gnarface | so you can change anything if you have a strong enough will |
| 06:02.45 | frabbit | sure |
| 06:02.52 | frabbit | i will recode it!1! |
| 06:02.54 | frabbit | xD |
| 06:03.13 | frabbit | ok xdm then |
| 06:03.13 | gnarface | i can't tell you off the top of my head how to change THAT |
| 06:05.59 | frabbit | gnarface: oh look: https://askubuntu.com/questions/895700/changing-the-login-timeout-for-tty |
| 06:06.46 | frabbit | cool that should do it! |
| 06:07.05 | frabbit | simple entry chnage, default is 60 here too |
| 06:07.11 | frabbit | *change |
| 06:09.08 | frabbit | works! ive testet with 10 seconds |
| 06:09.18 | frabbit | nice! |
| 06:10.12 | frabbit | i will never need to install a display manager for the beginner systems! muharharhar! |
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| 06:25.06 | frabbit_ | arg! why is that shutdoen button in xfce needing a dm?! |
| 06:25.44 | frabbit | if i click on it now that slim was purged im not authorized... |
| 06:27.42 | frabbit | there was something similar here when i asked here the first time abou xfce i think... |
| 06:27.53 | frabbit | checking irc logs |
| 06:38.21 | golinux | wonders why she's seeing frabbit |
| 06:38.47 | golinux | Ah, different user name with a _ at the end |
| 06:40.12 | Xelraa | when will beuwulf be stable? |
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| 06:41.07 | tomtastic | Right now |
| 06:42.03 | tomtastic | Xelraa --> https://devuan.org/os/ |
| 06:43.46 | frabbit | golinux: what? =D |
| 06:44.48 | frabbit | tomtastic: hey! |
| 06:45.00 | frabbit | when did that happend? last night? =D |
| 06:45.12 | tomtastic | Yesterday. |
| 06:45.18 | frabbit | cool! |
| 06:45.28 | tomtastic | Yes! |
| 06:45.33 | frabbit | Thank You very much to all Devuan developers! |
| 06:46.37 | frabbit | upgrades to Beowulf on one system. |
| 06:47.27 | tomtastic | has already upgraded to Chimaera :) |
| 06:52.37 | frabbit | tomtastic: =D |
| 06:52.48 | frabbit | i love these names |
| 06:54.07 | frabbit | ok as it seems these reboot and shutdown buttons in xfce menu are using pkexec so my USER can run these commands as another user (that probably has the permissions for that command) |
| 07:00.18 | tomtastic | Every morning I'm checking https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=nodejs&suite=experimental to see when Debian finally manages to build nodejs on some silly MIPs arch so they can finally move it from experimental to unstable. |
| 07:01.34 | tomtastic | It's amazing really that debian can run on so many architectures. |
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| 07:09.14 | frabbit | did the color of the website changed? |
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| 07:14.04 | frabbit | hm i didnt ran apt-get dist-upgrade i just run ap upgrade, but it is the same in this case is it? |
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| 07:34.50 | frabbit | what kernel does Chimaera have and how many architectures are supported? |
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| 07:52.15 | Xelraa | you gotta be kidding me that it come out yesterday can't wait to install it I wiped clean an archlinux installation for it already :P |
| 07:53.34 | frabbit | Xelraa: =D |
| 07:53.50 | frabbit | Xelraa: you are just in time ;) |
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| 09:05.03 | frabbit | ok nice i cant upgrade with apt upgrade after changing ascii to beowulf, system is broken now |
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| 09:53.01 | gnarface | frabbit: no, dist-upgrade is not the same in that case |
| 09:53.37 | gnarface | frabbit: using upgrade instead of dist-upgrade when switching releases will leave you with only partially upgraded packages |
| 09:58.09 | frabbit | gnarface: yeah ive already found out.. =( |
| 09:59.06 | frabbit | doesnt matter i wanted to reinstall the system i will first install beowulf on, so i dont care |
| 10:03.58 | gnarface | frabbit: well so you know for next time, Debian recommends upgrading like this: "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && apt-get dist-upgrade" |
| 10:04.47 | ShorTie | i thought that they really don't think that is a good idea |
| 10:05.07 | ShorTie | best to do fresh install when changing distro's |
| 10:10.38 | gnarface | ShorTie: i said switching releases, not switching distros, but of course Debian would recommend NOT to migrate installs to Devuan... they strictly recommend against distro mixing, which in fact we do too |
| 10:11.24 | gnarface | ShorTie: neither Debian nor Devuan recommend freshly reinstalling between release versions |
| 10:11.51 | gnarface | ShorTie: that's more of a "only if you messed it up" option |
| 10:12.16 | frabbit | gnarface: yeah ive done this in the past but its long long ago... |
| 10:12.25 | frabbit | last time for jessie |
| 10:12.37 | frabbit | upgrade TO jessie |
| 10:12.58 | gnarface | frabbit: there are release notes, you should read them https://files.devuan.org/devuan_beowulf/Release_notes.txt |
| 10:13.13 | frabbit | ShorTie: who is they? and a new version of a distro is not a new distro |
| 10:13.20 | ShorTie | yup, it's that "only if you messed it up" option that gets me all the time .. :/~ |
| 10:13.21 | frabbit | gnarface: done |
| 10:14.29 | frabbit | gnu/linux has to many distros... |
| 10:14.53 | ShorTie | it's is something i read i long time ago, and can't find again |
| 10:15.21 | frabbit | ShorTie: come here #debianfork |
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| 13:58.32 | nemo | so I was reading: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=rx5600xt-linux-vbios&num=1 |
| 13:58.39 | nemo | (I bought an rx5600) |
| 13:59.00 | nemo | I was wondering if: "Fortunately, no AMDGPU DRM kernel driver patches are needed or other changes... Just an updated Navi 10 SMC binary to be dropped in /lib/firmware/amdgpu/ and updating initramfs and a reboot to then enjoy the RX 5600 XT with updated vBIOS behaving on Linux." |
| 13:59.05 | nemo | is reflected in the debian amd firmware |
| 13:59.10 | nemo | I guess I should ask in #debian too |
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| 18:33.51 | some_alex | hi! I see beowulf is now officially stable. Congratulations everyone, big thanks to developers who worked on this so that everyone has init freedom! |
| 18:36.57 | some_alex | wow, the webpage says runit is supported too. Didn't see it in the beowulf beta installer. Did it get added in the latest release? |
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| 19:04.35 | fsmithred | some_alex, it's not in the installer yet. |
| 19:05.02 | fsmithred | expect it in the point-release which will not be far away |
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| 19:44.04 | some_alex | fsmithred: great, thanks! btw, is there a way to see package info like on the debian website? devuan package info website is very limited. I can't see what files a package provides, I can't download it's sources from the web, etc. etc. Is there a reason why it _that_ limited compared to debian's website? |
| 19:44.59 | fsmithred | install apt-file, run apt-file update, then apt-file list <package> or apt-file find <file> |
| 19:45.23 | fsmithred | apt-get source <package> |
| 19:46.00 | fsmithred | probably has to do with the fact that we don't host most of the packages |
| 19:46.08 | fsmithred | but that's a guess |
| 19:46.55 | fsmithred | if it's an un-forked package, you can download it from debian's website |
| 19:49.15 | some_alex | fsmithred: I know apt-file, but what if I don't have the machine at hand? Would be helpful to be able to use a website for this. Isn't debian's website open-source? |
| 19:49.51 | fsmithred | I would expect so |
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| 19:51.12 | some_alex | I used parabola before devuan so I'm used to forks copying the infrastructure of the base :) |
| 19:51.45 | fsmithred | there's probably a good reason why we're not using a clone of their system, but I don't know what it is. |
| 19:52.25 | fsmithred | you can download our forked packages directly from pkgmaster.devuan.org, but you have to know what version you want and you have to poke around to find it. |
| 19:52.29 | nemo | FWIW, my question earlier about the amd firmware update, the answer is that the debian packages are all older than the AMD fix |
| 19:52.38 | nemo | so it could be a while before the change works its way back |
| 19:52.55 | nemo | so I either put up with 5%+ performance reduction or figure out how to get the firmware file dropped in the right place |
| 19:53.06 | nemo | for now I'm going to do the former, but we'll see. |
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| 20:02.22 | some_alex | what could possibly change my initrd image? I never updated my initrd, but for some reason at some point it was changed. The only program I can suspect is apt. I installed a lot of packages during the time it might have been changed. But I never installed other kernels or regenerated it myself. What could have happened there? The symlinks in / haven't been touched btw |
| 20:02.31 | some_alex | sorry if I already asked this, don't remember asking here |
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| 20:13.52 | ErRandir | if you installed/updated a kernel module that will trigger a rebuild of initrd |
| 20:19.40 | fsmithred | a lot of packages trigger a rebuild of the intrd |
| 20:20.15 | fsmithred | happens to me several times a day |
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| 20:31.22 | some_alex | fsmithred: so it's normal to have initrd rebuilt when installing regular packages? |
| 20:31.40 | fsmithred | yeah, for some packages |
| 20:32.06 | specing | some packages are more regular than others |
| 20:33.01 | some_alex | fsmithred: what if /boot is read-only? Will apt just fail and report it or silently ignore the need to rebuild initrd? |
| 20:33.32 | fsmithred | probably get an error |
| 20:33.58 | fsmithred | permission denied, I guess |
| 20:34.04 | some_alex | thanks! |
| 20:34.35 | fsmithred | I hope you're not thinking of making it read-only to prevent initrd updates |
| 20:46.01 | some_alex | fsmithred: no, I'm making it read-only to simplify verification of the contents of /boot. /boot is unencrypted until I flash libreboot onto my BIOS chip so I store checksums of every file in /boot to make sure it wasn't tampered with while the machine was unattended. It's fine if I have to remount it for a minute to use apt. |
| 20:46.29 | fsmithred | cool |
| 20:46.40 | fsmithred | you know about the debsums package? |
| 20:46.49 | some_alex | no, what does it do? |
| 20:47.02 | fsmithred | verifies the checksums on installed files |
| 20:47.36 | fsmithred | I use it to list all config files that have been changed from their defaults |
| 20:48.07 | some_alex | wow, this sounds really nice, thank you! |
| 20:48.16 | fsmithred | not that I'm worried about someone else changing my files - I just need to remember which ones I messed with. |
| 20:49.31 | fsmithred | there's also tripwire which I think is similar |
| 20:51.16 | some_alex | well I'm very paranoid, expecting that someone with at least my level of knowledge would magically appear in my flat while I'm not there and mess with my software xD |
| 20:51.44 | Hurgotron | I'm using full disk encryption against that. |
| 20:51.54 | some_alex | guess why I haven't used that machine much after inird was updated LOL |
| 20:52.19 | some_alex | Hurgotron: me too, but /boot is still unencrypted |
| 20:52.39 | Hurgotron | gotcha. |
| 20:52.50 | some_alex | would never install an OS for myself without full-disk encryption |
| 20:53.08 | some_alex | LUKS+LVM == LOVE |
| 20:53.23 | Hurgotron | and RAID-1 below |
| 20:53.54 | some_alex | well on desktop yes, I'm going to use zfs after I buy the drives |
| 20:54.23 | some_alex | I mean I'm gonna use it as a server but it's basically an old desktop |
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| 20:55.55 | some_alex | a single drive would cost me 3 times the price I got this desktop for, hehe |
| 20:59.38 | mason | I do ZFS mirrors atop LUKS. Works well. |
| 21:00.32 | mason | I'm not so fond of the new native encryption, but if you don't have existing infrastructure, it probably wouldn't matter so much. It's painful shipping ZFS data from an encrypted dataset to an unencrypted one. |
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| 21:08.45 | some_alex | fsmithred: I'm curious though. Why isn't the initramfs-tools dir not changes due to this? Why isn't there any config file with the list of modules that initrd should contain? |
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| 22:38.33 | some_alex | is there any intention to ship linux-libre kernel? |
| 22:39.04 | fsmithred | some_alex, not at this time. Possibly in the future - it's an idea, not yet a plan. |
| 22:39.41 | fsmithred | gnuinos is a devuan respin that uses libre kernel |
| 22:42.14 | some_alex | their website is almost dead and not even English :( |
| 22:44.03 | some_alex | fsmithred: any thoughts on the earlier question on initrd config? |
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| 22:46.09 | fsmithred | I'm not entirely clear on how it decides which modules to include |
| 22:46.51 | fsmithred | gnuinos is alive, I'm sure. |
| 22:47.29 | fsmithred | you can also add libre kernel yourself. Pretty sure someone wrote it up on the forum. |
| 22:47.33 | some_alex | well I checked the website and all I see is a few buttons in a language I don't know |
| 22:50.50 | some_alex | yes there's a script to deblob the sources recorded by the wayback machine (the original website is down at the moment) and I'll try to use it, but I prefer using distro packages whenever possible. The only program I have not from the repositories is Tor Browser which I run in a sandbox because of this. I'm also planning to create LXC containers to separate development far from my user evironment |
| 22:52.37 | fsmithred | https://gnuinos.org/Beowulf/ |
| 22:52.52 | fsmithred | Descargas for Downloads |
| 22:53.27 | fsmithred | https://gnuinos.org/Ascii/ |
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| 22:59.18 | some_alex | fsmithred: sorry for not making it clear, but I don't trust distros with almost empty website. The less info I have on something, the less I can trust it. They don't even have a signature file. Did I mention that I either read or sandbox every single script that I have to run including any plugin to any program whatsoever? :) |
| 22:59.42 | some_alex | say, what would it take to add another kernel package to devuan? |
| 22:59.52 | fsmithred | a maintainer |
| 23:00.06 | fsmithred | and not a one-shot deal |
| 23:00.26 | some_alex | what are common tasks for maintainers? |
| 23:01.03 | fsmithred | packaging, keeping up with the changes in the package so it's available in the next release |
| 23:02.52 | fsmithred | doesn't someone package a libre kernel that works on debian? |
| 23:05.09 | some_alex | you mean precompiled? |
| 23:05.34 | fsmithred | yeah, a deb package |
| 23:07.59 | fsmithred | the debian kernel hasn't been deblobbed enough? |
| 23:10.12 | *** join/#devuan ebisu (632bbc72@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.99.43.188.114) |
| 23:10.35 | ebisu | How do I disable the network check on boot? I'm using network manager and I dont like having to mach ctrl+c every boot |
| 23:11.24 | some_alex | fsmithred: an email from 2009 on debian-devel-announce mailing list indicates that it was decided in December 2008 to introduce the blobs |
| 23:12.17 | some_alex | a debian package indeed exists on the same website that hosts the code for the deblob script, the site is up now |
| 23:12.58 | some_alex | ebisu: I'm having the same issue :( |
| 23:13.10 | some_alex | using OpenRC here |
| 23:13.19 | ebisu | im using sysvinit |
| 23:13.56 | some_alex | the network check is annoying and shouldn't even be there in the first place. Since when is network required to boot the system? |
| 23:14.32 | *** join/#devuan fred`` (fred@earthli.ng) |
| 23:15.26 | ebisu | i mean, systemd does the same thing to me on the real debian |
| 23:15.33 | some_alex | ebisu: there's an init script called network or something like that. I was thinking of putting it into a different runlevel or changing the dependencies in some init scripts, haven't figured this out yet |
| 23:16.30 | some_alex | ebisu: hey, I came here to not think about systemd! xD |
| 23:16.54 | ebisu | lol |
| 23:18.11 | fsmithred | an easy way to turn services on/off in different runlevels is with sysv-rc-conf |
| 23:18.29 | fsmithred | otherwise user update-rc.d |
| 23:18.42 | ebisu | which service am i looking for? |
| 23:18.48 | fsmithred | networking |
| 23:19.35 | fsmithred | I guess you want to turn it off in S |
| 23:20.14 | some_alex | fsmithred: so my guess to put it on another runlevel is the correct solution? |
| 23:20.15 | fsmithred | is boot hanging while waiting for a connection? |
| 23:20.34 | ebisu | yes |
| 23:20.38 | ebisu | until it times out |
| 23:20.43 | ebisu | i have network on boot cuz netowrkmanager |
| 23:20.45 | some_alex | why is it even in sysinit runlevel in the first place? |
| 23:20.52 | ebisu | dunno |
| 23:21.01 | ebisu | i installed sysv-rc-conf and i cant find it anywhere |
| 23:21.13 | fsmithred | sometimes just changing 'allow hotplug' to 'auto' do it (if you have configured /etc/network/interfaces) |
| 23:22.30 | ebisu | that worked! |
| 23:22.33 | ebisu | thanks a bundle |
| 23:22.55 | fsmithred | ot |
| 23:22.58 | fsmithred | oops |
| 23:23.05 | fsmithred | it's a common problem |
| 23:23.46 | *** join/#devuan xcm (~xcm@ipd114.250.tellas.gr) |
| 23:25.27 | fsmithred | ebisu, what couldn't you find? |
| 23:25.42 | fsmithred | sysv-rc-conf the command, or networking inside that utility? |
| 23:25.46 | ebisu | former |
| 23:25.56 | fsmithred | you must be root, and... |
| 23:26.01 | ebisu | i was |
| 23:26.04 | fsmithred | they changed the way root works |
| 23:26.14 | fsmithred | su does not give you root's path |
| 23:26.19 | ebisu | ohhh |
| 23:26.21 | ebisu | that explains a lot |
| 23:26.27 | fsmithred | so use the full path to the command or use 'su -' |
| 23:26.55 | fsmithred | if you like to start graphical apps as root from the user's desktop, you have to do other things now |
| 23:27.48 | fsmithred | ...or if you like to get root's path and stay in the current directory |
| 23:35.12 | fsmithred | if you're using network manager and you configured /etc/network/interfaces, they might fight with each other |
| 23:41.26 | some_alex | fsmithred: do you know why devuan uses a special file in /etc to determine its current release? The same info can be fetched from /etc/os-release, why create another distro-specific file? |
| 23:46.22 | *** join/#devuan sacioz (~sacioz@170.233.51.2) |
| 23:51.09 | sacioz | Many thanks to all of you for the stable version , Devuan devs , contributors and supporters. |
| 23:51.23 | *** part/#devuan sacioz (~sacioz@170.233.51.2) |
| 23:56.39 | fsmithred | some_alex, probably because debian does the same |