| 00:00.15 | *** join/#devuan danyspin97 (danyspin97@liveunix.org) |
| 00:03.23 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.235.193) |
| 02:08.03 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 02:23.56 | *** join/#devuan gast0n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 02:27.39 | *** join/#devuan SweetLeaf (~DutchIngr@unaffiliated/dutchingraham) |
| 02:32.34 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 02:43.58 | *** join/#devuan n4dir (~n4dir@mue-88-130-56-148.dsl.tropolys.de) |
| 03:02.56 | *** join/#devuan salsbury (~kurgan@bl8-22-58.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 03:11.00 | *** join/#devuan ac_laptop (~ac_laptop@186.2.247.129) |
| 03:15.08 | *** join/#devuan debdog (~debdog@194.140.113.244) |
| 03:57.16 | *** join/#devuan n4dir (~n4dir@i59F77CFE.versanet.de) |
| 04:16.13 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 04:17.26 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 04:17.42 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 04:30.40 | *** join/#devuan pablocastellanos (~emergency@li79-248.members.linode.com) |
| 04:34.28 | *** join/#devuan ar3itrary (~hacker@2a03:4000:6:8177:2::1) |
| 04:35.39 | *** join/#devuan devoowan (4bac0bcf@75-172-11-207.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 04:38.22 | *** join/#devuan fling (~fling@fsf/member/fling) |
| 04:57.37 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 05:17.39 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 05:26.33 | *** join/#devuan TheCreeper (~TheCreepe@unaffiliated/thecreeper) |
| 05:49.43 | *** join/#devuan DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 05:51.12 | *** join/#devuan Inepu (~Mithrandi@46.234.217.137) |
| 05:52.03 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 05:54.17 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 06:24.55 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 06:31.34 | *** join/#devuan xrogaan (~xrogaan@unaffiliated/xrogaan) |
| 06:31.48 | *** join/#devuan ar3itrary (~hacker@2a03:4000:6:8177:2::1) |
| 07:00.17 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@225.40.150.83.ftth.as8758.net) |
| 07:06.09 | *** join/#devuan manopola (~manopola@gateway/tor-sasl/manopola) |
| 07:34.49 | *** join/#devuan manopola (~manopola@gateway/tor-sasl/manopola) |
| 07:44.00 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 07:48.28 | *** join/#devuan manopola (~manopola@gateway/tor-sasl/manopola) |
| 07:50.44 | *** join/#devuan igol (~blah@88.222.97.25) |
| 08:14.49 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 08:54.38 | *** join/#devuan qin (~qin@unaffiliated/soalokin) |
| 08:55.13 | *** join/#devuan drmbls (~marius@78-56-83-14.static.zebra.lt) |
| 10:12.17 | *** join/#devuan Inepu (~Mithrandi@137-217-234-46.wifi4all.it) |
| 10:21.07 | *** join/#devuan Captain4LK (~Captain4L@p200300edbf0a44de523eaafffeeddbdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:59.55 | *** join/#devuan ferdy- (~ferdy@funtoo/contrib/ferdy-) |
| 11:07.08 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 11:19.21 | *** join/#devuan cronolio (~alex@unaffiliated/cronolio) |
| 11:26.15 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 11:28.49 | *** join/#devuan arnold_oree (~arnoldore@185.192.70.36) |
| 11:34.27 | *** join/#devuan Captain4LK (~Captain4L@p200300edbf0a44de523eaafffeeddbdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:38.08 | *** join/#devuan arnold_oree (~arnoldore@185.192.70.38) |
| 11:45.26 | *** join/#devuan pdt-arnold_oree (~arnoldore@185.217.117.251) |
| 11:49.07 | *** join/#devuan arnold_oree (~arnoldore@185.192.70.36) |
| 11:58.05 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e0a:4e1:97e0:179d:1cc6:8854:4d5c) |
| 12:07.43 | *** join/#devuan Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 12:23.58 | *** join/#devuan arnold_oree (~arnoldore@113.210.121.119) |
| 12:32.23 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@82-65-197-5.subs.proxad.net) |
| 12:37.49 | *** join/#devuan chimay[m] (chimaymatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jvgaldqlvueypscz) |
| 12:58.31 | *** join/#devuan arnold_oree (~arnoldore@113.210.101.41) |
| 13:09.54 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 13:34.37 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 13:42.49 | *** join/#devuan xinomilo (~xinomilo@gateway/tor-sasl/xinomilo) |
| 13:54.51 | *** join/#devuan KREYREN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 14:06.28 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 14:11.23 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 14:15.02 | *** part/#devuan numzob (~numzob@73.99.224.222) |
| 14:19.32 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe_ (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 14:24.23 | *** join/#devuan ac_laptop (~ac_laptop@186.2.247.129) |
| 14:24.51 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 14:26.58 | *** join/#devuan gavlee (~gav@unaffiliated/gavlee) |
| 14:33.48 | *** join/#devuan Volk (~Volk@a95-94-47-32.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 14:34.02 | *** join/#devuan gast0n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 14:36.10 | *** join/#devuan targz (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/targz) |
| 14:57.18 | *** join/#devuan Akuli (~akuli@82.128.159.214) |
| 15:10.54 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@36.161.2.109.rev.sfr.net) |
| 15:12.37 | *** join/#devuan arnoldoree (~arnoldore@113.210.101.41) |
| 15:14.49 | *** join/#devuan tierce (~raoulzeca@2a02:578:8402:18f:2e0:67ff:fe1f:f236) |
| 15:45.14 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 15:47.59 | *** join/#devuan cd (~cd@unaffiliated/cd) |
| 15:56.35 | *** join/#devuan Defender1031 (~DeFender1@93-173-78-184.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 15:56.36 | *** join/#devuan e3d3 (~user@2a02-a450-1c17-1-c218-85ff-fe75-40e8.fixed6.kpn.net) |
| 16:00.02 | e3d3 | maybe another stupid question but; I have ssh-agent not activated on startup but see that something else did. What programs are using ss-agent ? |
| 16:01.00 | e3d3 | ss-agent = ssh-agent |
| 16:01.12 | e3d3 | :) |
| 16:01.26 | gnarface | nothing i have installed |
| 16:01.33 | gnarface | some gnome-keyring thing maybe |
| 16:04.08 | e3d3 | can I de-install all ssh-related stuff because I never use ssh, and don't feel save with it installed ? |
| 16:04.50 | gnarface | yes |
| 16:05.27 | fsmithred | in my case, lxdm-session starts ssh-agent (pstree told me) |
| 16:05.44 | e3d3 | so I don't get problems with sudo, connecting to the internet etc ? |
| 16:05.49 | gnarface | you probably want to remove rpcbind too |
| 16:06.01 | gnarface | if you're not using ssh i assume you're not using nfs either |
| 16:06.14 | e3d3 | I even don't no wat nfs means |
| 16:06.23 | e3d3 | no = know |
| 16:06.33 | djph | Network File System |
| 16:06.35 | djph | now you do :) |
| 16:07.01 | e3d3 | thanks, no I guess I don't use that, or ssh must activate it behind my back. |
| 16:07.07 | djph | e3d3: as long as you don't have openssh-server installed (sshd) there's not exactly anything to be "afraid of" |
| 16:07.25 | djph | you just have a client, so you can ssh to a remote host. |
| 16:08.39 | e3d3 | djph: not to insult you but I'm very bad at trusting 'safe/honest' software. |
| 16:08.50 | e3d3 | better save than sorry |
| 16:09.34 | djph | e3d3: I mean it's "safe" in that _you_ have to invoke it. Might as well delete all teh CA Certificates too, since they're "safe/honest" |
| 16:09.55 | e3d3 | I prefer to deinstall it. Normally I boot once in 1-3 months, then immediatly check running processes (htop) and kill 2 ssh-related progs |
| 16:10.21 | djph | your choice |
| 16:10.42 | gnarface | e3d3: you don't need to justify removing unused software on a production system... his point is just that the ssh client has to be invoked (it's not a daemon) and the ssh-agent doesn't do anything at all unless you make keys for it |
| 16:10.49 | e3d3 | djph: I never need shh, but guess I need the certificates. I prefer minimal risk with things that are to big, complex etc for me to control |
| 16:11.47 | djph | e3d3: TLS certs certainly fall within "too big/complex for you to control" though |
| 16:11.52 | e3d3 | gnarface: I understand but seeing it almost on every distro active, or starting although there should be no remote control, doesn't comfort me. |
| 16:12.13 | djph | e3d3: "ssh-agent" is a KEYRING MANAGER; that's all |
| 16:12.18 | djph | it's also a stupid name |
| 16:12.34 | gnarface | e3d3: well, when i do installs (and i would recommend you do this too) when i get to the tasksel stage, i just uncheck everything |
| 16:12.48 | gnarface | then you only |
| 16:13.04 | e3d3 | ... bad connection ... ? |
| 16:13.05 | gnarface | *then you only need to add what you want |
| 16:14.01 | *** join/#devuan Captain4LK (~Captain4L@p200300edbf0a44de523eaafffeeddbdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:14.45 | *** join/#devuan DashiePie (~Rawr@c-73-152-100-71.hsd1.wv.comcast.net) |
| 16:14.53 | e3d3 | gnarface: I don't think I understand you. You mean that I could have deselected the ssh-agent install ? |
| 16:14.57 | *** join/#devuan rsx (~rsx@ppp-188-174-131-17.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 16:16.01 | e3d3 | anyway, I better first find out what started ssh-agent before removing it. |
| 16:17.47 | gnarface | e3d3: yes, you don't have to install anything in the first place |
| 16:17.55 | gnarface | well, almost nothing, anyway |
| 16:18.15 | gnarface | if you take defaults or if you get a bunch of free stuff |
| 16:18.23 | gnarface | s/or// |
| 16:18.39 | gnarface | sorry |
| 16:18.46 | e3d3 | :) |
| 16:18.47 | gnarface | distracted |
| 16:18.57 | gnarface | you get my point |
| 16:19.05 | gnarface | the live installer is different though |
| 16:20.32 | gnarface | hmm, i also only do expert mode installs |
| 16:20.49 | gnarface | that might also be why you don't see that question |
| 16:21.01 | gnarface | i forget, really |
| 16:23.25 | *** join/#devuan shibboleth (~shibbolet@gateway/tor-sasl/shibboleth) |
| 16:24.55 | djph | expert mode is (IIRC) the only way to get tasksel |
| 16:28.41 | e3d3 | I did minimal installs etc but can't bring up concentration/effort etc for all OS-facets. E.g. I can set myself to read about fonts, colors, new internet conventions. Now I prefer a basic out-of-the-box system and ignore or remove unwanted content, so I can spend my energy for my own work. |
| 16:28.59 | e3d3 | E.g. I can = E.g. I can NOT |
| 16:32.20 | e3d3 | it breaks me if I have to spend one day to discover that a supposed hidden taskbar obscure part of my text with the background color. |
| 16:33.48 | e3d3 | I'm going to try if reconnecting to the internet invokes the ssh-agent |
| 16:34.04 | *** join/#devuan KREYREEN (~kreyren@gateway/tor-sasl/kreyren) |
| 16:36.28 | *** join/#devuan TheCreeper (~TheCreepe@unaffiliated/thecreeper) |
| 16:37.18 | e3d3 | It didn't, nor using a sudo command, so now I'm going to reboot to check out what invoked the ssh-agent (that I killed to quickly). |
| 16:38.09 | e3d3 | Thanks again for helping, and don't take my paroia personal. I'm just an old fool |
| 16:38.30 | e3d3 | sorry if I bothered you with it |
| 16:46.42 | *** join/#devuan Soo_Slow (Soo_Slow@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/sooslow/x-31376162) |
| 17:01.38 | *** join/#devuan sgage (~sgage@h69-131-6-108.cntcnh.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 17:06.03 | *** join/#devuan IanJ (~IanJ@cpc137950-brom13-2-0-cust104.16-1.cable.virginm.net) |
| 17:14.36 | *** join/#devuan tuxd3v (~tuxd3v@a83-132-210-106.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 17:26.19 | *** join/#devuan luna_is_here (~quassel@ip-95-223-58-221.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 17:50.13 | *** join/#devuan pablocastellanos (~emergency@li79-248.members.linode.com) |
| 17:54.13 | *** join/#devuan alexandros_tab_ (~quassel@unaffiliated/alexandros-c/x-1684531) |
| 17:54.42 | *** join/#devuan alexandros_c_ (~quassel@unaffiliated/alexandros-c/x-1684531) |
| 18:20.27 | *** join/#devuan gnarface (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:47.00 | *** join/#devuan TheCreeper (~TheCreepe@unaffiliated/thecreeper) |
| 18:58.43 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e0a:4e1:97e0:179d:1cc6:8854:4d5c) |
| 19:02.23 | *** join/#devuan ac_laptop (~ac_laptop@186.2.247.129) |
| 19:08.51 | *** join/#devuan Captain4LK (~Captain4L@p200300edbf0a44de523eaafffeeddbdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:30.10 | *** join/#devuan sgage (~sgage@h69-131-6-108.cntcnh.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 19:34.41 | *** join/#devuan jotaxpe (jotaxpe@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jotaxpe) |
| 20:16.08 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.235.193) |
| 20:21.45 | *** join/#devuan shibboleth (~shibbolet@gateway/tor-sasl/shibboleth) |
| 20:22.58 | *** join/#devuan gnarface__ (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:25.54 | *** join/#devuan drmbls (~marius@78-56-83-14.static.zebra.lt) |
| 20:39.53 | *** join/#devuan tomg (~tomg@64-7-156-155.border8-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 20:41.40 | *** part/#devuan gnarface__ (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:42.07 | *** join/#devuan gnarface (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:11.09 | rwp | djph, We might be using different installers but tasksel is called at the end of normal (non-expert) installs too. |
| 21:11.51 | rwp | djph, I usually select nothing there, not even essential because that pulls in exim which I immediately replace with postfix. |
| 21:13.26 | Xenguy | rwp: Hi, I tend to prefer postfix over exim myself, but up to now I've just been accepting the default... |
| 21:13.53 | rwp | It's not the end of the world to have had exim installed, then purged and postfix installed. |
| 21:14.01 | Xenguy | When you use postfix instead of exim, how much post-install configuration is typically required? |
| 21:14.13 | rwp | The only real difference that I know of is that the /etc/aliases file is then pre-existing with exim defaults. |
| 21:14.33 | Xenguy | huh |
| 21:14.37 | rwp | Postfix configuration depends very much upon what it is being used for and so there is no simple answer. |
| 21:15.09 | rwp | I have always run my own standalone mail server on my main mail relay and therefore that one is quite extensive. |
| 21:15.27 | rwp | But for all of the random other systems the configurations there are really very simple. |
| 21:15.48 | Xenguy | I no longer use the MTU(?) extensively, so it would just be for local delivery I think |
| 21:16.16 | rwp | For local delivery only then any of the package installation selections from the dialog would be okay. |
| 21:16.29 | Xenguy | Sounds pretty simple then, thanks |
| 21:17.28 | rwp | Regarding /etc/aliases, exim seeds the file with a dozen typical aliases for news, usenet, www, ftp, and so forth that are not really apropos these days. Postfix does not. |
| 21:17.56 | rwp | Xenguy, https://paste.debian.net/1180382/ |
| 21:18.19 | rwp | It's a pretty small difference in the grand scheme of things. |
| 21:19.06 | rwp | If the system in on a LAN then it is not anything to be concerned about. If the system is an incoming mail relay then those are all spam targets that can be avoided by not having them. |
| 21:19.27 | rwp | The only two that really need to be there are abuse and postmaster in order to play nice with the community and standards. |
| 21:19.50 | rwp | Then of course one should route root's mail to a mailbox that will be read. |
| 21:20.19 | rwp | But for ftp, news, usenet, those are definitely not desired when those services are not being used. |
| 21:20.52 | rwp | s/MTU/MTA/ Maximum Transmission Unit != Mail Transfer Agent :-) :-) |
| 21:22.42 | Xenguy | hah, that's my memory playing games again: I only recall that there are 2 TLA's, one for mail servers, and one for mail clients |
| 21:22.46 | rwp | Just for extra security I recommend setting "inet_interfaces = loopback-only" so that there is no incoming SMTP possible. |
| 21:23.10 | rwp | MUA Mail User Agent, (mutt FTW!) and I think that is the complete set of TLAs for mail. |
| 21:23.48 | rwp | With inet_interfaces = loopback-only then it binds to 127.0.0.1 only and then no spam or abuse can enter. Good when that is just not needed. |
| 21:23.55 | Xenguy | That' it : -) MUA and MTA then. |
| 21:24.22 | rwp | However note that inet_interfaces = loopback-only affects only *incoming* connections. Of course *outgoing* connections may still proceed. |
| 21:24.37 | rwp | So a send-only leaf node can still send mail to another system okay. |
| 21:25.31 | Xenguy | Cool, thanks for the pointers |
| 21:25.39 | rwp | Which still means that if someone sets up Wordpress or whatever and has a security penetration and it sends spam out then out it goes through that access. |
| 21:27.07 | Xenguy | It's mostly just receiving mail from daemons that I need, and yes, I do remember my days of using Mutt as my daily driver quite fondly : -) |
| 21:27.43 | rwp | Agreed. It's mail notifications from the system that I think are important to always have some way to read root's email at least. |
| 21:27.58 | rwp | Anyway... It is only that exim is marked as essential and is pulled in by tasksel for essential that I decide not to install it by default. |
| 21:28.18 | Xenguy | Stands to reason |
| 21:28.20 | rwp | But then I script everything and I run the configuration scripts afterward and they install everything and configure it as per my setup. |
| 21:29.02 | rwp | Since I am doing this quite a bit the advantage is that when things are scripted then they are applied consistently. |
| 21:29.29 | Xenguy | That sounds convenient; are you leveraging dpkg --get-selections at all? |
| 21:29.33 | rwp | However if I set up a truly one-off system then I do often just hack and slash on it manually and accept that it isn't reliably set up the same as others. |
| 21:30.17 | rwp | No. I am not using the dpkg --get/set-selections method. I simply install a list of packages. And then configure those packages. |
| 21:31.00 | *** join/#devuan Volk (~Volk@a95-94-47-32.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 21:31.05 | rwp | The problem I run into (which others may have solved differently) is that I only want to tag the main package as manually installed. I want the rest to be marked as auto installed. |
| 21:31.27 | rwp | So that later 'apt-get autoremove' will keep them available as candidates for removal. Especially libraries. |
| 21:31.58 | rwp | That means that upgrades work nicely and autoremove keeps things clean with removing now replaced library packages. |
| 21:32.43 | rwp | bind9 for example is always top of tree now and rolls libraries with *every* upgrade. So those dependent libraries I want to autoremove after they are no longer needed. Or there would be dozens and dozens of obsolete copies of them left behind. |
| 21:33.32 | rwp | And old kernels. And other mostly library related packages. But also "php" pulls in php5, php7.0, php7.2, and so forth as the versions roll forward over time. |
| 21:34.52 | Xenguy | Looks like your configuration process is deep : -) |
| 21:35.22 | rwp | Well... Yes! :-) |
| 21:35.53 | rwp | I don't happen to use puppet, chef, salt, ansible, or what have you because about 20 years ago I wrote my own. |
| 21:36.17 | rwp | And have been using it pretty much continuously ever since. And since I wrote it therefore I know it. And so I use it instead of one of the well known ones. |
| 21:36.36 | rwp | But having a system like those is very important if you are rolling out new systems as a routine occurrence. |
| 21:37.25 | rwp | If you are interested in the philosophy side of it then http://www.infrastructures.org/ is where it all started. |
| 21:38.49 | rwp | I am not associated with that site in any way other than citing it for reference. "Bootstrapping the Infrastructure" was an early paper published on the topic. Stale now but the concepts... |
| 21:44.37 | Xenguy | Cool, will have a look. I don't roll new systems on a regular basis, but it would be handy to have something in place for when I do do a fresh install. |
| 22:02.01 | rwp | Only because Python is so popular but I will hazzard a guess that Ansible is the most popular system configurator framework these days. |
| 22:05.37 | *** join/#devuan xinomilo (~xinomilo@gateway/tor-sasl/xinomilo) |
| 22:11.30 | rwp | Until systemd decides to implement it itself. (Did I actually say that? Or just think it?) |
| 22:16.25 | Xenguy | haha |
| 22:18.02 | tarzeau | rwp: i'm glad it's only popular. which is in no way related to quality |
| 22:18.48 | tarzeau | rwp: we had also written our own, it is called dphys-config (the config format was great, the transport not so efficient) |
| 22:19.46 | tarzeau | rwp: i'm yet to see others to use ansible for linux workstation deployment (i do that) |
| 22:20.16 | tarzeau | rwp: i've found myself to sort out to use parallel over ansible as it's horribly slow at some point |
| 22:22.11 | rwp | I haven't actually used Ansible myself so don't know enough to comment upon it. |
| 22:22.50 | tarzeau | i've found it utterly cumbersome for workstation configuration (being used to dphys-config, unix style single line configuration for a thing) |
| 22:23.02 | tarzeau | and run time didn't get me neither |
| 22:23.15 | rwp | I haven't used dphys-config either. But I am using dphys-swapfile! :-) |
| 22:23.55 | tarzeau | haha, we've stopped using dphys-swapfile long ago. we use zram now by default, and btrfs compressed file systes, nohang, and xz for kernel compression |
| 22:24.21 | tarzeau | and i'm all for rotating platter + more ram, than ssd (for machines being up 24/7) |
| 22:25.13 | tarzeau | we've got like 100 gb binary software for /opt, and like 20 gb of deb pakaged software (4000 packages) per workstation |
| 22:25.31 | tarzeau | and i'm a big fan of eatmydate apt-get install all-the-stuff (huge speed boost) |
| 22:25.40 | rwp | Huge speed boost. |
| 22:25.58 | rwp | But rather the actual problem is *huge speed loss* by the additional cache busting fsync() calls that were added. |
| 22:26.30 | rwp | Those folks would prefer not to have any caching at all. Because! |
| 22:28.05 | rwp | As a reaction I have seen a lot of movement to doing stuff in /tmp as a tmpfs for which fsync() is a noop and then copy the result back so avoiding the fsync() cache busting. |
| 22:28.19 | tarzeau | i use some nice trick to install tar.gz to /opt download the thing, and unpack it right to the filesystem (wget pipe tar xf), instead of downloard, write to disk, unpacke, remove downloadfile (saves also problem with diskspace for hugeh softawre packages) |
| 22:28.28 | tarzeau | i wish that was possible for debs |
| 22:29.14 | rwp | With enough RAM and dynamic file system buffer cache (where cache is actually used) the result _should_ be similar. |
| 22:32.02 | tarzeau | but the compressed content downloaded deb/tar.xz/tar.gz is idfferent than it's unpacked content |
| 22:32.17 | tarzeau | so everything goes twice through disk,cache |
| 22:32.28 | rwp | Before rsync became such a good kitchen swiss army sink for file copies that we use it everywhere without thinking it was common to ssh remotehost tar czf - path | ssh remotehost tar xzf - |
| 22:33.44 | rwp | Yes on deb format but with enough file system buffer cache that might all happen in memory. |
| 22:34.38 | rwp | And if it weren't for the cache busting then "apt-get upgrade -y ; apt-get clean" (and similar) might happen before the updated sync daemon decides those dirty pages need to be written to disk. |
| 22:35.31 | tarzeau | is that disk firmware cache (16mb or 64mb depending on disks) or linux memory caching? |
| 22:35.38 | rwp | At one time in the Linux kernel one could tar xzf, cd, make, make check, cd .., rm -rf, and it would all happen before the disk sync wrote anything to disk. |
| 22:35.58 | rwp | Linux kernel dynamic file system buffer cache. |
| 22:36.01 | tarzeau | i see... until someone runs "sync" |
| 22:36.26 | rwp | Right. Or codes in fsync() into the code everywhere. That's what eatmydata overrides with an LD_PRELOAD library |
| 22:36.38 | tarzeau | let me guess you don't use btrfs, because at some point swapfiles would not work with btrfs ( i think recently they fixed it) |
| 22:36.48 | tarzeau | ack |
| 22:37.24 | rwp | I have not ever used btrfs myself. And frankly I was surprised to hear it was in such heavy use by some of the big players. |
| 22:37.31 | tarzeau | my todo list also has, benchmark runtimes of binaries built with clang vs gcc. and using mimalloc (with stuff that'd doing lots of malloc calls) (need to profile the stuff first) |
| 22:37.58 | tarzeau | i used 10 years xfs, but recent 5 years switched to btrfs for the live compression |
| 22:38.08 | rwp | tarzeau, You should join #devuan-offtopic and we should continue there. It's drifted pretty far from Devuan Stable support here... |
| 23:04.12 | *** join/#devuan petzi (~petzi@p578b3438.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:09.09 | *** join/#devuan gast0n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 23:52.49 | *** join/#devuan bpmedley (~bpm@69-174-155-24.bltnilaa.metronetinc.net) |
| 23:57.07 | *** join/#devuan Acacia (~Acacia@unaffiliated/acacia) |