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| 08:38.41 | forester | How today I decided add chimera in repositary and suddenly have understand there is http: . I added 's' https://deb.devuan.org/merged/ and it is imposible to download. QEUSTION: Why there is no https varaint? Because there were many times when I was downloading in synaptic some packages, and something another with them was downloaded in parrallel. Synaptic did show rate only 20-40 Mb, but System Monitor did show full rate about 200 Mb ( |
| 08:38.41 | forester | mobile usb modem). And package about 20 Mb finished downloading process, where as System Monitor did show that there was downloaded about 100-200 Mb. WHAT COULD YOU SAY? |
| 08:39.04 | forester | * not How, but Hullo |
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| 08:40.40 | onefang | deb.devuaan.org is a round robin DNS, pointing to a bunch of package mirrors. So we can't use HTTPS for that. |
| 08:44.31 | forester | Then as I could suppose there is allowed to use this situation for attack (do not remember how it names, something 'between' it is possible to replace packages, or add something malicious). In any case something was downloaded in parallel many times (4-5). I have Sublime Text in repository, and it has 'https' |
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| 08:45.24 | onefang | Look at https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt and choose a mirror that HTTPS if you want to use HTTPS. |
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| 09:07.15 | lts | They usually need to hear the answer "packages are signed" |
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| 09:24.20 | xinomilo | signed & reproducible (most of them), but https is a good thing too. |
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| 13:57.06 | lts | Sure, signing provides integrity and https some confidentiality |
| 14:09.37 | furrymcgee | Please note that Debian can neither confirm nor deny whether the certificate authorities whose certificates are included in this package have in any way been audited for trustworthiness or RFC 3647 compliance. |
| 14:13.11 | lts | "mozilla/Hongkong_Post_Root_CA_3.crt" is there indeed, for example |
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| 16:24.53 | unixbsd | do you know maybe an easy alternative to LyX for easy use, aka. for "TeXlamers / beginners? |
| 16:25.13 | MinceR | vim :> |
| 16:26.02 | unixbsd | I mean with a frontend |
| 16:26.09 | unixbsd | vim is evilwm for begin |
| 16:27.17 | unixbsd | MinceR: ed? ted? |
| 16:27.24 | MinceR | meh |
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| 17:32.39 | mason | gnarface: Oddly, I went from a pixel-based xscreensaver to an OpenGL one and it hasn't crashed - the opposite of what one might expect. |
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| 17:41.15 | gnarface | mason: you might have gotten lucky... or they might have actually fixed it after all these years (not holding my breath though - i'd give it another 48 hours before i'd even be comfortable wagering on how much longer it would last) |
| 17:41.43 | gnarface | mason: and also i'd make sure vsync was working and check my gpu temps |
| 17:43.06 | mason | Hrm, makes me wonder if I can query nVidia temps via the command line. |
| 17:43.18 | mason | nvidia-settings shows 32°C at present |
| 17:43.31 | gnarface | i gave up on them a good decade ago, but once about 4 or so years ago i was just testing on ceres idly and managed to lock it up within moments using the one that has whales swimming around (that was using a either a nvidia 560 or 650 on whatever nvidia drivers were in the repo on ceres at the time) |
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| 17:44.04 | mason | nouveau or proprietary? |
| 17:44.12 | gnarface | proprietary for sure |
| 17:44.28 | gnarface | there is a way to get temps by command-line |
| 17:44.34 | gnarface | nvidia-msi or something like that |
| 17:44.34 | mason | I'd go for AMD but you need to chase the cutting edge kernel. |
| 17:45.00 | gnarface | yea i switched to AMD and it has been better |
| 17:45.01 | mason | hm, right, remembering something like that now, but I don't seem to have it installed. Will dig later. |
| 17:45.43 | gnarface | i don't know for sure that the nvidia-settings binary can't dump values to command-line too though, i haven't looked carefully but there are command-line switches for a number of the other settings |
| 17:47.48 | gnarface | i'm having trouble finding the package for the nvidia msi stuff |
| 17:48.07 | gnarface | it used to be there for sure but it wasn't ever a required package |
| 17:48.39 | gnarface | frankly i'm glad to be free of it |
| 17:50.31 | gnarface | oh shit |
| 17:50.32 | gnarface | that's why |
| 17:50.41 | gnarface | because it's nvidia-smi not nvidia-msi |
| 17:50.42 | gnarface | sorry |
| 17:50.58 | gnarface | smi for "system management interface" |
| 17:51.27 | gnarface | a command-line tool they made primarily for cluster use, i think |
| 17:52.15 | gnarface | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=.*nvidia-smi.* |
| 17:52.25 | gnarface | mason: ^ |
| 17:53.41 | mason | Ah, didn't have that install, but that rings the bell authoritatively. |
| 17:53.42 | gnarface | msi is the thing you enable on intel onboard audio and ethernet kernel modules |
| 17:53.46 | mason | s/install/&ed/ |
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| 18:49.48 | nemo | hm |
| 18:49.52 | nemo | https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/t/tomcat9/tomcat9_9.0.31-1~deb10u3_changelog |
| 18:50.00 | nemo | * Removed the SysV init script |
| 18:50.04 | nemo | why do they do crap like that? â¹ |
| 18:50.20 | nemo | isn't that violation of the last Debian meeting where they said they wouldn't go out of their way to desupport SysV? |
| 18:50.48 | nemo | does that mean Devuan has to patch a package like this, or make a fixup subpackage, or force the installer to maintain the init? |
| 18:51.05 | nemo | and. is this sort of thing a general issue across Debian that Devuan now has to worry about? |
| 18:51.18 | nemo | if I searched changelogs across the board, would I see more "Removed the SysV init script" ? |
| 18:51.26 | nemo | is this a thing worth complaining to Debian about? |
| 18:51.49 | gnarface | nemo: yes, yes, yes, no |
| 18:52.06 | gnarface | nemo: and the devuan package full of their abandoned sysvinit scripts already exists |
| 18:52.16 | nemo | gnarface: oh? good! |
| 18:52.18 | nemo | gnarface: what is it? |
| 18:52.23 | nemo | is it automatically pulled in? |
| 18:52.23 | gnarface | i forget the name |
| 18:52.32 | gnarface | no, but fsmithred knows where it is |
| 18:52.42 | nemo | I feel like I need to make sure it is on the work servers |
| 18:52.45 | nemo | just-in-case |
| 18:52.46 | gnarface | not a standard package yet, i think it might be in proposed-updates or something |
| 18:52.50 | nemo | although so far haven't run into this |
| 18:52.51 | fsmithred | what? |
| 18:53.02 | gnarface | fsmithred: they pulled another sysvinit script apparently |
| 18:53.10 | fsmithred | which one? |
| 18:53.21 | gnarface | apache tomcat i think? |
| 18:53.32 | nemo | sadness |
| 18:53.34 | fsmithred | we forked it |
| 18:53.37 | fsmithred | pretty sure |
| 18:53.45 | nemo | so... they deliberately ignored their own vote. it was just a show. |
| 18:54.08 | nemo | "ok, you guys voted for support, we'll just passively aggressively defer this to package managers with no hand slapping or guidelines" |
| 18:54.16 | fsmithred | Candidate: 9.0.31-1~deb10u2+devuan1 |
| 18:54.38 | fsmithred | tomcat9 ^^^ |
| 18:54.42 | nemo | fsmithred: that could get problematic no? if every time a tiny text file is pulled you guys now need yet another massive binary â¹ |
| 18:54.45 | fsmithred | in beowulf |
| 18:55.03 | nemo | oh. or do you do a dependency .deb ? |
| 18:55.11 | fsmithred | I forget the name, but there's a package for orphaned init scripts in debian |
| 18:55.15 | nemo | I guess you still need to fork then to add the dependency so that doesn't help |
| 18:57.37 | fsmithred | I don't think we will fork all the packages that get their init script dropped |
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| 19:00.15 | nemo | fsmithred: so you'll make some meta package for devuan and then some generic script that copies in inits on install of new packages? |
| 19:00.22 | nemo | initmanager ? |
| 19:00.54 | fsmithred | maybe. I'm not sure what the debian package will do |
| 19:01.55 | gnarface | luckily the total amount of storage required by all of the sysvinit scripts in the entirety of time and space is trivial |
| 19:02.14 | fsmithred | It will only put files into /etc/init.d/ when the relevant package is |
| 19:02.14 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:02.25 | gnarface | all we have to do is put them all in one place and fix them to prove their efforts to be a worthless lie |
| 19:02.27 | fsmithred | that's in the Description |
| 19:02.38 | fsmithred | it's in ceres and chimaera |
| 19:03.09 | nemo | gnarface: oh. so they are pulling them because "too much effort to maintain" ? |
| 19:03.09 | fsmithred | they may not even need fixing in many cases |
| 19:03.11 | nemo | is that the reason? |
| 19:03.35 | fsmithred | too much fucking effort to hear someone else say "I tested it and it works, please keep it in." |
| 19:03.39 | nemo | fsmithred: yeah tomcat is incredibly self-contained. I can't imagine either its init or the script for systemd are much more than "launch tomcat" |
| 19:03.45 | gnarface | nemo: yes. that's the whole reason systemd was created - the garbage attitude of package maintainers towards maintaining their own packages |
| 19:04.32 | nemo | mildly related... on both Devuan and Redhat (well Amazon Linux 2) I've had a bug with Tomcat where random library errors appear after distro package update |
| 19:04.40 | nemo | This is resolved on restarting tomcat |
| 19:04.57 | nemo | which makes me think neither Redhat nor Debian packages restart tomcat service on update |
| 19:05.26 | fsmithred | doesnt debian policy dictate how that should be done? |
| 19:05.46 | gnarface | do we think the people left over there still read their own policies? |
| 19:05.53 | fsmithred | I see services restarting when they get upgraded |
| 19:06.05 | fsmithred | oh, maybe they don't read |
| 19:06.53 | nemo | I haven't actually read the .deb or .rpm to see what they do |
| 19:07.06 | nemo | it's not impossible it's some other issue w/ tomcat, although I'm not clear what |
| 19:07.12 | nemo | maybe wrong order of operation.. |
| 19:07.19 | nemo | or restart vs reload |
| 19:07.30 | gnarface | last i checked they used to restart, but that was before systemd. after systemd i had a disturbing conversation with one of the maintainers about how they no longer saw fit to properly unmount disks "because that's what journaling is for" |
| 19:07.46 | fsmithred | !!!!!!! |
| 19:07.47 | infobot | i heard !!!!! is \"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head.\" -- Terry Pratchett, Maskerade |
| 19:08.23 | fsmithred | well, it was in response to something that makes as much sense as wearing underpants on your head |
| 19:08.49 | mason | gnarface: Weird. There are explicit services to gate on clean block availability. |
| 19:09.00 | gnarface | i should have saved the log but this person also told me in no uncertain terms that the only meaningful use of linux was in a VM on a azure cluster anyway |
| 19:09.18 | fsmithred | lol |
| 19:09.27 | mason | gnarface: I'd be curious to know what camp they were in. That's an unusual perspective. |
| 19:09.39 | gnarface | kernel development, iirc |
| 19:10.35 | gnarface | could have just been a troll masquerading as a maintainer to trigger me, which worked well, but none of the ops chimed in to say anything |
| 19:10.39 | gnarface | and they were definitely watching |
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| 19:12.20 | gnarface | this was back when we were also having that failure to unmount disks before shutdown problem here |
| 19:12.39 | gnarface | the same problem trickled down to us but we got it fixed at some point afterwards |
| 19:12.52 | gnarface | i'm sure you guys will recall that incident |
| 19:14.00 | gnarface | i don't reboot my machines often enough to have a clear track on how long after we inherited that bug from them that we got it fixed here, but i have no particular reason to believe they ever bothered fixing it for debian. i assume there's still a race condition where spinning-platter harddrives and slow usb keys still don't unmount fast enough |
| 19:15.44 | gnarface | and if you bring that up in #debian they will just haze you for being poor |
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| 19:27.16 | nemo | gnarface: heh. VM in an azure cluster with your own personal ubuntu salesman ð |
| 19:27.33 | nemo | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26114194 context for folks who missed that |
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| 22:17.10 | dagal | hey, i'm experimenting with a zfs-on-root installation of devuan |
| 22:17.50 | dagal | i've just snatched the dkms and relevant libs from buster-backports, and it looks like it's working for now |
| 22:18.11 | dagal | will update when i'm sure |
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| 22:39.06 | numzob | dagal: mixing debian and devuan packages? that's a thing? does it work? |
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| 22:43.36 | kiwi9 | Yes. You can even take Ubuntu ppas & use the debs they contain as long as you have the dependencies. I installed Audio-recorder that way this week on Devuan Ceres. https://launchpad.net/~audio-recorder/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages. |
| 22:49.09 | gnarface | dangerous and risky but possible |
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| 23:10.53 | mason | If dagal comes back, someone should note that it's not necessary - Devuan has beowulf-backports that'll work just fine if he wants ZFS via DKMS. |
| 23:14.12 | onefang | numzob: "mixing debian and devuan packages? that's a thing? does it work?" Devuan is mostly Debian packages, so yes that's a thing, and it works. As mason pointed out, you don't even have to do anything, that's just the way it is. |
| 23:24.49 | fsmithred | and it works much better if you pull everything through our filter (devuan repo) |
| 23:25.01 | fsmithred | unfiltered debian might not taste good |
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| 23:50.12 | Xenguy | > masons/install/&ed/ |
| 23:50.48 | Xenguy | ^^ TIL why '&' always insists on being escaped in the target string of search/replace operations |
| 23:51.04 | mason | Ah! Yes. :) |
| 23:51.16 | Xenguy | Unless you are using it the way you did above. That's coooooooooooool : -) |
| 23:51.34 | mason | I really like it. Unix has so much cool stuff in it... |
| 23:52.27 | Xenguy | When I can still keep learning new tricks years (decades?) later, you know it's awesome |
| 23:54.49 | mason | Agreed. |
| 23:55.20 | Xenguy | "You are an endless maze of twisty passages..." |
| 23:55.29 | mason | I've decided recently that a great source of learning Unix things is to watch what rrq does. |
| 23:55.31 | numzob | :) |
| 23:56.45 | Xenguy | I cannot disagree, and really, when learning anything really well, emulating the experts is good policy |