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| 01:10.32 | *** topic/#devuan is Welcome to Devuan! https://devuan.org | Releases: https://files.devuan.org (Beowulf 3.1 stable, ASCII 2.1 old-stable) | Forum https://dev1galaxy.org | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | take offtopic chat to #devuan-offtopic |
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| 01:28.34 | gnarface | xrogaan: maybe this? /usr/bin/xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = Multi_key' |
| 01:28.55 | gnarface | compose key setting? |
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| 02:08.10 | rwp | There are multiple ways to do things but I set the compose key like this: setxkbmap -option compose:menu |
| 02:08.28 | rwp | And then follow that up with some more invasive changes with xmodmap. |
| 02:11.38 | rwp | On my Thinkpad keyboard I use: setxkbmap -option compose:prsc |
| 02:12.11 | rwp | Because the PrtSc key is in the MultiKey position on that keyboard. |
| 02:12.49 | xrogaan | I have this in my .xsessionrc: setxkbmap -option "nbsp:none" |
| 02:13.00 | xrogaan | The xmodmap file should do the same |
| 02:14.21 | xrogaan | I went nuclear trying to get that behavior to go away, it was very infuriating. I use the key next to the left shift (<, > here) to type '|' using the altgr modifier. |
| 02:15.13 | xrogaan | I don't always lift my finger in time when typing a following space. |
| 02:19.38 | xrogaan | Non breaking space, that it is called. Absolute nonsense. |
| 02:20.08 | adhoc | it has its uses. |
| 02:20.45 | adhoc | perhaps less obvious in a terminal |
| 02:20.53 | xrogaan | http://hauweele.net/~gawen/blog/?p=32 |
| 02:21.10 | xrogaan | > For ASCII is not dead, itâs 7-bit, itâs common, itâs the neutral zone of all character set and No-Break Space shall not interfere therefore it must be eradicated from the very surface of earth or at least from my own keyboards. |
| 02:21.15 | xrogaan | My thoughts exactly. |
| 02:22.38 | rwp | I mostly run into nbsp in email from Gmail to me because Google inserts it everywhere. |
| 02:23.25 | rwp | I don't have a problem with my accidentally typing in a nbsp but I don't use AltGr as you have described but mostly use Compose keys. |
| 02:26.42 | xrogaan | I set XKBOPTIONS="nbsp:none" in /etc/default/keyboard too. |
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| 02:28.19 | rwp | Just to show that I sympathize, I put this in my early boot for the Linux text consoles: dumpkeys --full-table | sed -n '/^keycode *29/p;/^keycode *58/p' | sed '/^keycode *29/s/Control/Escape/g;/^keycode *58/s/CtrlL_Lock/Control/g' | loadkeys -q |
| 02:28.43 | rwp | Capslock left of the A becomes left Control, left Control becomes Escape. |
| 02:29.39 | rwp | And similar in my .xmodmap for X. But I want it mapped *CORRECTLY* even when I am not in X on the system console. :-) |
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| 02:46.11 | xrogaan | I mean, who uses non-breaking space? |
| 02:46.31 | onefang | I do, in web pages. |
| 02:46.47 | gnarface | xrogaan: are you sure your keyboard map is right? |
| 02:47.31 | gnarface | xrogaan: maybe try a "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration" then a "dpkg-reconfigure locales" then relog and test stuff again |
| 02:48.08 | gnarface | the problem you were having with some altgr key combos throwing errors sounds like the time i tried to use the us standard ansii keyboard mapping on a uk iso standard keyboard |
| 02:48.46 | gnarface | (full us keyboard to the compact format uk iso keybard, blows up some stuff like " \ and ' characters) |
| 02:49.22 | gnarface | i wonder if your xmodmap stuff was partially chasing the wrong end of the problem |
| 02:49.38 | gnarface | i had this issue with a pinebook |
| 02:51.33 | rwp | As I recall ISO is 105 keys with the "tall Enter" and ANSI is 104 keys with the "short Enter". Definitely not the same layout. |
| 02:52.48 | rwp | The UK seems to be mostly ISO with the tall Enter shaped inverted-L. The US is probably 75% ANSI with the short Enter but I still see a lot of tall Enter keyboards here. |
| 02:52.56 | gnarface | well but also then there's a minor differences between the US and UK versions |
| 02:53.16 | gnarface | not just for key positions, but for a couple of the actual character codes |
| 02:53.27 | rwp | Right. That's also true and in addition to the different key for the 104/105 key differences. |
| 02:57.58 | rwp | I mean the US has a pound sign over the 3 and the UK has a pound sign over the 3 and they are completely different glyphs. We are one people separated by a shared language. |
| 03:02.46 | adhoc | separated by a common character set |
| 03:03.07 | adhoc | those two countries use the same words with completely different meanings |
| 03:04.26 | adhoc | if you've spent any time in the UK, you'll have five people in a room with accents so thick, they can't understand each over, even though they only live ten miles away from each other |
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| 03:19.25 | rwp | Ya. On DVD movies we might be listening to English but have to turn on the English subtitles in order to catch half of them. |
| 03:24.56 | xrogaan | gnarface: maybe I didn't express my correctly. There is no error. It's just an abhorrent behavior. |
| 03:25.53 | xrogaan | altgr+space would insert a non breaking space, which bash can't understand as space |
| 03:25.54 | gnarface | xrogaan: right, like sometimes you just get the wrong key, sometimes the terminal just blinks or beeps (error bell) and does nothing until you hit the key again, sometimes it'll output the right key then but with a leading or trailing space? sound about right? |
| 03:26.16 | gnarface | specifically the stuff like " ' and |? |
| 03:26.39 | xrogaan | so 'somecmd | grep "blah"' would have bash say ' ' is not recognized or whatever, because it's not a space. |
| 03:26.40 | gnarface | when i said error i didn't mean actually an error log i meant just the terminal alarm bell/blink |
| 03:26.53 | gnarface | oh hmm |
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| 03:27.13 | xrogaan | What I see is a space. What I typed should be a space. But it's not a space. |
| 03:27.53 | gnarface | well there's a lot of whitespace characters... probably just the wrong one. if you can figure out the actual ascii value of it, that might be a clue |
| 03:28.05 | onefang | Your keyboard is spaced out man. |
| 03:35.22 | xrogaan | what's the "compose" key? |
| 03:35.31 | xrogaan | isn't it alt-gr? |
| 03:37.55 | cronolio | this key doen't exest's on default keyboard, but can be configureg in settings |
| 03:40.28 | xrogaan | oh, it's not set here. No wonder I can't get it to work. |
| 03:41.04 | xrogaan | 'Â ' <- this is not a space. |
| 03:41.53 | xrogaan | $ Â |
| 03:41.53 | xrogaan | bash: $'\302\240': command not found |
| 03:42.32 | xrogaan | man, compose is great. Where has it been all my life? |
| 03:42.52 | adhoc | ah, the joy of learning new things |
| 03:42.58 | iv4nshm4k0v | xrogaan: Composing itself to meet you. |
| 03:46.51 | xrogaan | <compose> <less> <slash> is a lot less painful than altgr+8 |
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| 04:17.13 | xrogaan | IETF's mailarchive interface is so gorgeous: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/ |
| 04:41.41 | rwp | I know that some people like AltGr because they are used to it. I learned Emacs C-x 8 foo stuff back in the day. But I find Compose sequences much more intuitive. |
| 04:42.26 | rwp | So much easier to type in caf Compose e ' and get café when I want that than remembering the chorded keys for AltGr. |
| 04:43.44 | rwp | I very much liked the old gmane web interface when it was working. |
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| 06:30.09 | xrogaan | get a french keyboard and you'll have é right away. |
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| 14:51.03 | eki | quit |
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| 15:35.48 | eyalroz | I'm having trouble with my mirror... |
| 15:36.01 | eyalroz | Err:12 http://il.deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf Release |
| 15:36.01 | eyalroz | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:36.37 | gryrmln | remove the 'il' |
| 15:39.21 | eyalroz | Yes, if I drop the `il.` it works, |
| 15:39.44 | eyalroz | but - there is an il.deb.devuan.org site |
| 15:39.49 | eyalroz | and this used to work. |
| 15:40.11 | gryrmln | yes it used to work, now it doesnt :) |
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| 16:11.47 | eyalroz | gryrmln: Any particular reason, or should I just not ask? |
| 16:12.26 | golinux | https://sledjhamr.org/apt-panopticon/results/Report-web.html |
| 16:13.02 | golinux | deb.devuan.org is a round-robin of all of our mirrors. |
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| 16:41.42 | eyalroz | golinux: So il.deb.devuan.org isn't some specific local site? Ok, well, then, never mind... |
| 16:46.30 | golinux | Country codes are deprecated. |
| 16:47.17 | golinux | You can specify a specific mirror from the mirror list or just use deb.devuan.org |
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| 16:53.44 | eyalroz | golinux: Ok. Was this announced somehow? |
| 16:56.38 | golinux | Yes on https://www.devuan.org/os/packages: |
| 16:56.46 | golinux | "Devuan has a network of package repository mirrors in place. The mirror network is accessible using the FQDN �deb.devuan.org� via http NOT https. Country Codes (CC) are currently unavailable but a specific mirror from the list can be accessed using the corresponding BaseURL." |
| 16:57.10 | golinux | Has been that way since ascii iirc |
| 17:04.41 | nemo | oh. that reminds me |
| 17:04.51 | nemo | I have to fix mine too. ran into that on one of my older devuan installs |
| 17:04.58 | nemo | so I probably should check them all |
| 17:12.28 | eyalroz | golinux: Hmm. Weird. Ok, so the country prefixes worked as a residual fluke. Ok. |
| 17:12.58 | eyalroz | I guess a bunch of users will be facing this issue right about now... |
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| 17:42.07 | ralphe | would like to try devuan but wanted to make sure that my most importatnt packages are readily available. Could someone pls advise where I can search for specific packges |
| 17:43.38 | tuxd3v | ralphe, maybe this? https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html |
| 17:43.46 | mason | ralphe: Unless they're systemd-specific, they'll be in Debian. |
| 17:45.08 | ralphe | tuxd3v: thxs |
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| 18:24.26 | eyalroz | How good is Devuan's compatibility with deb-multimedia packages? |
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| 18:31.06 | golinux | Same as debian. Third party repos are not recommended |
| 18:34.04 | eyalroz | golinux: Ok, so, no known significant breakages. Good enough for me to use it for avidemux . |
| 18:34.52 | golinux | Use at your own risk |
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| 18:40.58 | sadsnork | eyalroz, as mentioned third party repos are not recommended but I can at least tell you that I have used deb-multimedia, winehq, opensuse (ungoogled-chromium and palemoon), torproject, and asbru-cm successfully. |
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| 18:43.12 | eyalroz | sadsnork: Thanks, that helps :-) |
| 18:48.00 | sadsnork | Glad to be of help. Though of course as many people have said before, if it breaks... you get to keep the pieces. :-) |
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| 19:05.45 | eyalroz | Actually, I don't think that is a reasonable attitude. I mean, obviously the responsibility isn't Devuan's. But it should be expected for users to add third-party repositories; |
| 19:06.39 | eyalroz | and a distribution should IMHO have some sort of a notion, made available to users, regarding the compatibility of various prominent 3rd-party repos. |
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| 19:19.57 | sadsnork | I am just "some guy" who uses Devuan, my views certainly should not be interpreted as official in any way... I just figure my experience was perhaps relevant. |
| 19:20.58 | sadsnork | I imagine there is already enough work for Devuan developers, maintainers, and other various volunteers that trying to keep up with all packages at all third party repos is simply not possible. |
| 19:23.45 | iv4nshm4k0v | The beauty of volunteer-driven projects is that if you want something to be there, you can simply volunteer to do it yourself. If what you do is useful and reliable, it becomes "official." |
| 19:33.13 | sadsnork | Perhaps, though while I might consider my experience with third party repos to be relevant and possibly helpful, I wouldn't consider my experience to be comprehensive enough to call it official in any way. |
| 19:35.17 | sadsnork | I'd certainly hope that the real maintainers of Devuan (meaning "not me") would not find themselves trying to support someone working with third party repos simply because I publicly shared my successful use of them. |
| 19:36.56 | onefang | The problem with third party repos is that they MAY replace something important for the rest of your system that you didn't expect. But, you can check out the third party repo's contents for that sort of thing. I also use deb-multimedia and the PaleMoon one, and the official Mono one, plus some more, with no problems. |
| 19:37.57 | onefang | But yeah, use Mono from a third party repo, even this Devuan dev ain't gonna help you if that causes problems. But mostly coz I hate C#. lol |
| 19:47.14 | rwp | It used to be some years ago during the libav fork bad times that I needed to use deb-multimedia in order to get ffmpeg based versions which worked for me. |
| 19:47.56 | rwp | But in recent years that libav/ffmpeg issue seems to have become resolved enough that I only need the main distro repositories and things are okay now. (Which I always add "for me". YMMV.) |
| 19:48.34 | onefang | I'm pissed off that JPEG 2000 support was removed from most things Debian. Sure it's an obscure format, but it's used for everything in OpenSim, so I have thousands of the things. |
| 19:49.55 | rwp | I'll also note that some people learn how to work with multiple repositories and know how versions of packages in repositories work and deal with it. While other people are always fighting it and banging their head against the system. Which leads to quite different success and failure stories being reported. |
| 19:50.20 | rwp | onefang, I am unaware of the JPEG 2000 issue. I must thankfully not have been hitting it. |
| 19:50.31 | onefang | As I said, they are OK if you know what you are doing and check the contents of the third party repos. |
| 19:51.31 | rwp | For a lot of things I create chroot containers to hold the odd things like "an old version of grip" that I still use for ripping music and things like that. So as to keep things isolated and not get in the way of the host system upgrades. |
| 19:51.47 | onefang | It's obscure, if you are not using JPEG 2000, you wont notice it. It used to be used in medical applications, and it's the internal image format for all images in OpenSIm, a 3D virtual world that has lots of images for mesh textures and stuff. |
| 19:51.55 | rwp | I mean sure it is an etch based binary and we are on beowulf now but it's still working well for me. :-) |
| 19:53.10 | onefang | So you can imagine my desktop, which has backups of three OpenSim servers, and copies of those so I can test new OpenSim code, has a really large collection of JPEG 2000 images. |
| 19:53.13 | rwp | I wonder why jpeg 2000 was dropped? I do know that interpreters in libraries used by other random programs have become a target of attacks due to buffer overflow attacks within them. And JPEG is defined as an interpreter. |
| 19:53.46 | onefang | I'm thinking of running a VM with an ancient version of Devuan from before they removed JPEG 2000. |
| 19:54.13 | rwp | You should definitely do that. I have dozens of VMs for specific things all frozen off. |
| 19:54.24 | onefang | Likely coz "meh no one uses it, remove attack surface". |
| 19:54.51 | rwp | Libraries are where Rust is an advantage. It can be used to mitigate the problem of memory problems. And being a library other programs that use it are then protected. |
| 19:55.03 | onefang | Same thing for a few other things that I don't like about Beowulf. Quite a few things I use grew some annoyances for Beowulf. lol |
| 19:55.33 | rwp | Recently someone submitted Coreutils rewritten in Rust and I think that is just silly. No advantage at all there. It's not like cp, mv, rm, are segfaulting due to memory problems and creating security vulnerabilities. |
| 19:56.00 | onefang | Like neomutt not showing O for Old marked emails, but instead showing N for New on those Old marked emails. Worked fine in ASCII. |
| 19:56.26 | rwp | I am using mutt not neomutt and I am still seeing O for old mails. |
| 19:56.54 | rwp | However I am using local Maildirs and I notice that IMAP "does not work right" for my definition of "right" which is why I continue to use local Maildirs. |
| 19:57.14 | onefang | xscreensaver not turning off my monitors AFTER I have blanked them manually, it's fine doing it on the automatic blanking before the first manual one. |
| 19:57.19 | rwp | With imap it seems I don't get N new mails but only get O old mails. |
| 19:57.40 | onefang | Before Beowulf mutt was neomutt, they split and properly named them now. |
| 19:57.59 | onefang | I prefer neomutt. |
| 19:58.35 | rwp | I am not running xscreensaver anywhere. But I am setting "xset s 1800 dpms 1800 1800 1800" and my monitors are power saving okay. |
| 19:59.13 | rwp | Before mutt was neomutt it was just mutt. It was mutt then mutated into neomutt and then was split. |
| 19:59.15 | onefang | MariaDB complaining every five minutes that the replication connection dropped, though it's replicating fine. I haven't been able to find any reports of this WITHOUT a second error message that I don't get. Those reports are real network dropouts. |
| 19:59.34 | onefang | I know about the mutt history. |
| 19:59.42 | xrogaan | and I forgot how to format paragraphs using vim, again. |
| 19:59.50 | onefang | lol |
| 19:59.59 | rwp | "| fmt" ?? :-) |
| 20:00.17 | onefang | There's only one command I need to know for vim - killall -TERM vim |
| 20:00.47 | onefang | Coz sometimes you invoke it when you didn't want to, coz it's the default editor for things. |
| 20:01.29 | xrogaan | gq apparently |
| 20:01.33 | rwp | Note that if we are going to ramble then #devuan-offtopic is the official channel for it and not in #devuan so that people can focus on helping people. |
| 20:01.53 | xrogaan | wasn't it #debianfork? |
| 20:02.23 | rwp | AIUI #debianfork is for development discussion. Not random rambling and ranting. |
| 20:03.06 | onefang | Well those problems I mentioned about Beowulf I'd like to get answers to. Neomutt I can run in a VM, MariaDB I can run in a VM, xscreensaver has to run in the host. Coz it's annoying having to turn my monitors off to get to sleep. |
| 20:03.51 | rwp | Try using "xset" as above and letting it do it's thing. No need for xscreensaver. |
| 20:03.56 | onefang | JPEG 2000 stuff I can run in a VM, but that one is painful, and I can just blame Debian for. |
| 20:04.35 | rwp | I stopped using xscreensaver because jwz obviously did not want people to use it and it's a silly thing these days anyway. |
| 20:05.55 | rwp | I am blaming Debian for a lot of these but on the good side Debian is driving me away from packages and back to the source code again. |
| 20:06.05 | onefang | I had experimented with xset, couldn't get exactly what I wanted. |
| 20:10.44 | onefang | xset s 10 dpms 20 30 40 # typed in an xterm should blank in ten seconds, then go through the various stages of turning off the monitor each ten seconds after that? It did nothing. |
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| 20:16.50 | rwp | Works for me. (shrug) Maybe something additional is needed such as read-edid which I have installed but I have no idea otherwise. |
| 20:24.30 | Akuli | how can i install linux-tools on beowulf? i have main non-free contrib enabled in sources.list, still not found |
| 20:26.01 | rwp | Akuli, What are "linux-tools"? That's not a package name. |
| 20:26.13 | Akuli | https://askubuntu.com/questions/50145/how-to-install-perf-monitoring-tool |
| 20:26.36 | fsmithred | linux-perf-4.19 |
| 20:26.39 | fsmithred | probably |
| 20:26.42 | Akuli | ah thanks :D |
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| 20:27.07 | rwp | That site talked about "perf" and for me /usr/bin/perf is in the linux-base package. |
| 20:27.18 | Akuli | for whatever reason i gave up when there were 155 autocompletions for 'linux-<Tab>' |
| 20:27.38 | rwp | That is a big prefix namespace! |
| 20:31.01 | onefang | OK, read-edid is installed now. Do I have to do something with it? Just restart X? Or something more complex? |
| 20:32.01 | golinux | Wow! I go to pick up groceries and the channel flies offtopic. This is a support Devuan channel. Looks like it got back on track . . . |
| 20:34.12 | rwp | You left us unsupervised golinux so what did you expect to happen? :-) |
| 20:34.34 | onefang | lol |
| 20:34.43 | golinux | Chaos of course! :D |
| 20:35.03 | onefang | Sometimes I step in as topic police. |
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| 20:44.55 | specing | golinux looks away and suddently gobsd happens |
| 20:45.31 | golinux | onefang: Yes you have, Thank you for that . . . |
| 20:46.08 | golinux | I think we have pretty much all run out of things to say at this point but we keep trying . . . |
| 20:46.47 | onefang | I'm still hoping for some help on the things I raised, especially the monitors not turning off thing. |
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| 21:23.04 | kreyren | uploaded an image: (118KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/gBhfzPlOaMeAfDAmQZtrFDfP/image.png > |
| 21:23.06 | kreyren | gnarface: bwahahaha |
| 21:23.28 | kreyren | turned out that there was a conductive dust causing signal to hug itself |
| 21:29.24 | kreyren | uploaded an image: (310KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/ihQhuJIoxultcsqGyzBYaDkW/image.png > |
| 21:29.27 | kreyren | also i fixed it this way |
| 21:30.10 | kreyren | can't believe it worked xD (it still had issues after sonic cleaner so i put it in a bathroom and blasted it with a shower head then back to sonic cleaner with 99.6% isopropanol and dried with hot air) |
| 21:31.47 | rwp | Good job! |
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| 21:58.21 | eyalroz | onefang: (Slow reply) Indeed, 3rd-party repos _may_ do something wrong which busts your system in a subtle way. But repository creating and maintenance must be distributed and not centrally controlled. |
| 22:00.07 | onefang | Which is why my advice is - if you know what you are doing, check them first, otherwise maybe not. Most others say "NO!". shrugs |
| 22:00.59 | onefang | Though I guess if you have to ask, you probably don't know what you are doing. lol |
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| 23:14.45 | hook54321 | What's a good speed to crawl dev1galaxy.org? I don't want to overload it or cause issues. |
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| 23:27.51 | gnarface | kreyren: awesome |
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| 23:53.33 | Xenguy | I'm wondering if anyone knows if there are any existing examples of software that is being packaged for Devuan that are *not* already packaged in Debian? |
| 23:54.17 | Xenguy | e.g. is anyone packaging something just for Devuan, and not Debian? |
| 23:54.19 | fsmithred | refractainstaller and refractasnapshot, fontsnaps, cryptsetup_modified_functions |
| 23:54.34 | Xenguy | but of course, thanks fsmithred |
| 23:55.03 | Xenguy | There's some chess software that I'm looking into |
| 23:55.31 | Unit193 | Old list, but xlennart, pinthread, loginkit, fontsnaps, devuan-lintian-profile, choose-init, acdcli |
| 23:55.40 | Xenguy | It's a fork of a package that currently is in the Devuan repo |
| 23:55.56 | fsmithred | ? |
| 23:56.02 | Xenguy | xlennart, gotta install that one : -) |
| 23:56.08 | fsmithred | lol, yes |
| 23:57.10 | Xenguy | scid is the chess software in the repo... |
| 23:57.26 | Xenguy | chessdb is the fork of that, not currently packaged |
