| 00:14.34 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.159.138) |
| 00:18.07 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@69.73.210.65) |
| 00:32.40 | *** join/#edev bioeng (n=bferguso@68.216.133.80) |
| 00:33.08 | bioeng | Guys, is embedded software engineering a good career for an EE/CompE major? |
| 00:34.17 | prpplague | bioeng: uh |
| 00:34.26 | prpplague | bioeng: it all depends |
| 00:34.40 | bioeng | On what? |
| 00:34.44 | prpplague | bioeng: usually if you have to ask, the question is no |
| 00:34.54 | prpplague | bioeng: you have to enjoy it to do it |
| 00:34.55 | bioeng | Why isn't it? |
| 00:35.03 | prpplague | bioeng: or else you will be totally miserable |
| 00:35.16 | prpplague | bioeng: too many people get into it thinking that its easy money |
| 00:35.41 | MonMotha | most of what I do is hardware dev, firmware, and then some sort of host-side application to talk to my device |
| 00:35.48 | bioeng | My friend now works for Boeing as an embedded software engineer |
| 00:35.55 | MonMotha | people like that I can actually do all three |
| 00:36.28 | prpplague | bioeng: does he enjoy it? |
| 00:36.38 | bioeng | I'm not sure |
| 00:36.40 | bioeng | and it's a she |
| 00:36.45 | prpplague | ahh |
| 00:36.49 | prpplague | bioeng: now thats ood |
| 00:36.49 | bioeng | She was the top of her class |
| 00:37.13 | prpplague | that doesn't mean much to me |
| 00:37.42 | bioeng | Everyone would praise her all the time and help her |
| 00:37.47 | bioeng | I was mostly on my own |
| 00:37.53 | bioeng | So I'm trying to help myself |
| 00:38.07 | MonMotha | I've found that, short of silly requirements imposed by HR ("Minimum GPA: 3.0"), most engineering firms don't give a damn how you did academically, as long as you did reasonably well and took the correct courses |
| 00:38.20 | MonMotha | being able to show projects that mean something in the real world goes a long way |
| 00:38.20 | prpplague | exactly |
| 00:38.43 | flyback | yep |
| 00:38.44 | bioeng | I'm wanting to be a science and engineering entrepreneur |
| 00:38.51 | MonMotha | I landed my internship this summer by taking a board I'd previously made over to the career fair and showing it off |
| 00:39.25 | MonMotha | of course, I have to deal with icky windows... |
| 00:39.33 | bioeng | And as of a year from December, I'll have three academic degrees |
| 00:39.35 | prpplague | bioeng: best advive, if you don't enjoy doing it, don't do it |
| 00:39.37 | MonMotha | thoughI will admit, C# as a language isn't bad |
| 00:39.42 | bioeng | one is electrical engineering |
| 00:40.01 | MonMotha | # of degrees really doesn't seem to matter |
| 00:40.03 | bioeng | I thought embedded would be good because it was closer to hardware |
| 00:40.21 | prpplague | bioeng: best advive, if you don't enjoy doing it, don't do it |
| 00:40.37 | bioeng | From what I've seen, I do enjoy doing it |
| 00:40.41 | prpplague | bioeng: lots of the areas embedded is related to require lots of extra time |
| 00:40.47 | prpplague | bioeng: lots of stress |
| 00:40.53 | prpplague | bioeng: and is very demanding |
| 00:41.35 | bioeng | It's just... |
| 00:41.37 | prpplague | bioeng: i personally would relate going into an embedded dev field much like talking to someone about being a pop music star or actor |
| 00:41.59 | prpplague | bioeng: yes you can make it big, most don't, and it takes alot of work to get there |
| 00:42.34 | MonMotha | wow, openoffice decided to go and make everything huge on their UI... |
| 00:42.37 | bioeng | When I was in school, this friend would get the royal treatment from everyone |
| 00:42.51 | bioeng | They didn't treat me nice at all |
| 00:43.01 | prpplague | bioeng: hehe, where are you from? |
| 00:43.05 | bioeng | So I'm trying to get more experience to impress them |
| 00:43.08 | bioeng | southern Illinois |
| 00:43.17 | prpplague | bioeng: ok picture this |
| 00:43.47 | prpplague | bioeng: i grew up in east texas, my high school was next to a cow pasture, i'm a total get among rednecks |
| 00:43.53 | prpplague | bioeng: didn't get much help either |
| 00:44.00 | prpplague | bioeng: you'll find that alot |
| 00:44.22 | prpplague | bioeng: remember |
| 00:44.45 | prpplague | bioeng: employeers hire people to solve a problem or problems |
| 00:45.03 | prpplague | bioeng: the quicker you can solve the problem and solve other problems the more valuable you are |
| 00:45.18 | prpplague | bioeng: its not about impressing people |
| 00:45.42 | prpplague | bioeng: because 99% of the time embedded devrs and most computer related devr's in general |
| 00:45.55 | prpplague | bioeng: are nothing more than shadowy figures to the rest of the world |
| 00:47.11 | bioeng | We made an embedded operating system in school |
| 00:47.12 | bioeng | About four functions |
| 00:47.15 | bioeng | I loved it |
| 00:47.25 | prpplague | bioeng: then do some projects on the side |
| 00:47.25 | bioeng | I have the computer that housed it in my room today |
| 00:47.35 | prpplague | bioeng: do some more |
| 00:47.41 | bioeng | That's why I've entered this community |
| 00:47.48 | bioeng | And I'm reading Linux books |
| 00:47.54 | prpplague | where are you from? |
| 00:47.55 | bioeng | Wikipedia as well |
| 00:48.00 | bioeng | I'm from southern Illinois |
| 00:48.05 | bioeng | as I said before |
| 00:48.10 | prpplague | oh shoot you already said that |
| 00:48.11 | prpplague | hehe |
| 00:48.20 | prpplague | wasn't paying attention |
| 00:48.22 | prpplague | long day |
| 00:48.57 | prpplague | bioeng: embedded is just something you have to jump into |
| 00:49.12 | prpplague | bioeng: i'd suggest getting some inexpensive dev boards |
| 00:49.17 | prpplague | bioeng: and start tinkering |
| 00:49.23 | bioeng | Cool |
| 00:49.53 | bioeng | I think what I'm really working towards is using embedded systems in cool applications |
| 00:50.10 | MonMotha | that would pretty much be the entire point of embedded systems |
| 00:50.11 | bioeng | For example, there's a civil professor at school interested in using them for structural monitoring systems |
| 00:50.18 | MonMotha | just the definition of "cool" varies from person to person |
| 00:50.39 | prpplague | bioeng: problem is cool doesn't always pay the bills |
| 00:50.49 | bioeng | I find the technical (most science, most engineering except some mechanical) awesome |
| 00:51.05 | bioeng | But they said at school engineering makes great money |
| 00:51.11 | MonMotha | and your definition of cool may not meet your project's definition of cool |
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| 00:51.19 | MonMotha | if you're in it for the money, get out now |
| 00:51.24 | prpplague | amen |
| 00:51.34 | prpplague | bioeng: if you are interested in money get out now |
| 00:51.40 | bioeng | Why? |
| 00:51.44 | MonMotha | there's a reason most "programmers" in the USA suck today. They all got into it "for the money" and didn't really bother to learn it |
| 00:51.46 | prpplague | bioeng: because you will be very unhappy |
| 00:51.52 | MonMotha | which is why they're all losing their jobs |
| 00:52.04 | MonMotha | and often times they don't care, since they hated their job anyway |
| 00:52.13 | bioeng | I think that could happen to my friend that got the job at Boeing |
| 00:52.46 | bioeng | She didn't, as well as many others in ECE department, learn the material well |
| 00:52.54 | bioeng | I took an extra year to learn EE |
| 00:53.12 | MonMotha | learning the material and liking the material do not always correspodn |
| 00:53.12 | bioeng | and it's made a HUGE difference in my understanding of the material |
| 00:53.48 | bioeng | One question |
| 00:54.32 | bioeng | Programmers would have to learn programming to pass the classes needed to get their degree |
| 00:54.44 | bioeng | So they would have to learn it |
| 00:55.08 | prpplague | bioeng: some basics yes |
| 00:55.59 | bioeng | But I guess they don't learn the specifics? |
| 00:56.48 | prpplague | there is of course with most things a giant difference between class/lab and the real world |
| 00:57.03 | bioeng | I've definitely found that |
| 00:57.29 | prpplague | there is the "right way" to do programming and then there is the "business way" of programming |
| 00:57.42 | prpplague | doing code isn't always about the right way |
| 00:57.47 | bioeng | I've noticed that in the programming community on open source |
| 00:58.03 | prpplague | and in a biz environ sometimes you have to make nasty code choices to get something done |
| 00:58.25 | bioeng | Are any of you guys familiar with Boeing? |
| 00:58.31 | prpplague | i am |
| 00:58.32 | bioeng | They are big at my school |
| 00:58.45 | bioeng | What are they like? |
| 00:58.45 | prpplague | yea i know several people working there |
| 00:58.53 | prpplague | bioeng: its not for everyone |
| 00:59.15 | bioeng | I heard it is like Office Space and Dilbert |
| 00:59.34 | prpplague | yea |
| 00:59.37 | prpplague | pure corp type |
| 00:59.54 | bioeng | Do they have a dress code? |
| 01:00.59 | bioeng | Hello? |
| 01:01.07 | prpplague | oh yea |
| 01:01.17 | prpplague | bioeng: boeing is very corp type |
| 01:01.34 | prpplague | bioeng: which may or may not fit with your style |
| 01:01.55 | bioeng | If it involves wearing a suit and tie, it's not for me |
| 01:02.03 | prpplague | bioeng: not that strict |
| 01:02.07 | prpplague | bioeng: but still |
| 01:02.07 | bioeng | Business casual is as far as I'll go |
| 01:02.32 | prpplague | bioeng: just from talking here, i can almost tell you, you need to look else where |
| 01:03.22 | bioeng | Is there any specific weakness that would not have me prosper there? |
| 01:03.36 | bioeng | because the school keeps pushing Boeing |
| 01:03.53 | prpplague | bioeng: i ment in embedded dev |
| 01:04.10 | bioeng | My friend got a Boeing scholarship for example |
| 01:04.25 | bioeng | They paid for everything, according to her |
| 01:04.43 | prpplague | bioeng: yea, see you are saying the wrong things imho |
| 01:04.50 | prpplague | MonMotha: would you agree |
| 01:04.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: ? |
| 01:05.20 | bioeng | Why am I saying the wrong things? |
| 01:05.30 | bioeng | I apologize if I offended you |
| 01:06.08 | prpplague | bioeng: no, i am saying you are asking questions that show you are probably not cut out to do that type of work |
| 01:06.37 | bioeng | Well, I need something to do with my electrical engineering major |
| 01:06.58 | prpplague | bioeng: yea, embedded is probably not your cup of tea |
| 01:08.18 | prpplague | bioeng: don't go on just my word, but like i said , its much like acting or singing, most people dont make a million, and you have to have a passion for it |
| 01:08.34 | bioeng | I had another thought |
| 01:08.49 | bioeng | One of my main aspirations is to be an entrepreneur |
| 01:09.05 | bioeng | specializing in science and engineering |
| 01:09.33 | bioeng | I am trying to find how to integrate my EE major into that goal |
| 01:09.45 | bioeng | I thought embedded would be a good tool |
| 01:10.03 | bioeng | but I'll have to think about it |
| 01:10.10 | bioeng | and I may have to look at other areas |
| 01:10.15 | bioeng | Any comments? |
| 01:11.14 | prpplague | yea, think you need to look else where |
| 01:11.30 | bioeng | Is the entrepreneur idea a good idea? |
| 01:11.40 | bioeng | And what else in EE could I do? |
| 01:11.41 | prpplague | bioeng: might talk to some other folks, but i would tell you, embedded is not your area |
| 01:12.02 | prpplague | bioeng: EE is a big field |
| 01:12.34 | bioeng | Are you an EE? |
| 01:13.11 | prpplague | bioeng: hehe, i have about 400 semester hours in electronics , operating systems and program, but no degree |
| 01:13.46 | bioeng | Well, I have a degree in biology |
| 01:14.01 | prpplague | bioeng: might think about looking there |
| 01:14.01 | bioeng | and I've almost got degrees in civil and electrical engineering |
| 01:14.10 | prpplague | bioeng: oh |
| 01:14.16 | prpplague | bioeng: you need to go there then |
| 01:14.24 | bioeng | Wait, which one? |
| 01:14.25 | prpplague | bioeng: civil engineering will fit you well |
| 01:14.41 | bioeng | I'll be back in 30 minutes |
| 01:24.52 | MonMotha | prpplague: sorry, was working with Visual Studio |
| 01:24.56 | MonMotha | which, amazingly, doesn't suck |
| 01:25.06 | MonMotha | and I would agree, yes |
| 01:25.26 | MonMotha | perhaps rather than embedded, he would prefer something different like communications, power, or controls |
| 01:25.32 | MonMotha | controls being the most closely related to embedded |
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| 01:42.32 | bioeng | MonMotha |
| 01:42.49 | bioeng | If all goes according to plan, I will be in control systems this fall |
| 01:42.57 | bioeng | A lot of Laplace transforms |
| 01:43.25 | bioeng | And prp, why would civil engineering fit me well? |
| 01:44.05 | bioeng | Also, the friend I was talking about is in the IEEE Education Society. Does that mean anything about what we talking about with her? |
| 01:47.53 | bioeng | I'll wait for you two to get back |
| 01:47.59 | MonMotha | you can use the laplace transform for a lot more than controls |
| 01:49.23 | bioeng | I've seen a structural professor use it for vibrations |
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| 01:57.21 | bioeng | Are you back yet, prp? |
| 02:07.32 | bioeng | MonMotha, what can you use Laplace transform for? |
| 02:13.14 | *** join/#edev leoncamel (n=leoncame@219.238.107.107) |
| 02:15.38 | prpplague | bioeng: yea civil engineering is all about the money |
| 02:15.38 | prpplague | bioeng: as long as you can do you calc's and work you're good |
| 02:15.38 | prpplague | bioeng: ieee stuff doesn't count for much |
| 02:15.38 | bioeng | I was getting C's at first |
| 02:15.40 | bioeng | Then I started making B's |
| 02:15.44 | bioeng | in civil engineering that is |
| 02:15.51 | bioeng | but GPA really doesn't matter I guess |
| 02:15.55 | prpplague | yea lots of work for civ |
| 02:16.16 | bioeng | What do you think about structural monitoring using electronics? |
| 02:17.46 | MonMotha | why not |
| 02:19.24 | bioeng | I'm wanting to learn more |
| 02:19.33 | prpplague | bioeng: it boils down to this...if you are thinking embedded+money, forget it |
| 02:19.52 | prpplague | yes you can make money doing it, but it can;t be the reason you are doing it |
| 02:20.48 | bioeng | I love civil engineering |
| 02:21.14 | bioeng | One thing I love to do is to go see great bridges and I love seeing different buildings, even if it's a Wal-mart Supercenter |
| 02:21.41 | MonMotha | then maybe you should be doing civil engineering |
| 02:22.55 | bioeng | But I want to integrate electrical engineering into that discipline |
| 02:23.40 | prpplague | bioeng: no reason you can't |
| 02:24.14 | bioeng | Have you heard anything about anything being done like that? |
| 02:24.54 | bioeng | I just wish there was more integration between the two disciplines |
| 02:25.24 | prpplague | bioeng: i'm sure there is, just gotta find it |
| 02:25.48 | prpplague | bioeng: just everything you are saying screams "not right for embedded:" |
| 02:26.45 | bioeng | What is right for embedded? |
| 02:27.38 | prpplague | bioeng: someone who reads chip datasheets like it was porn |
| 02:27.51 | prpplague | bioeng: someone who eat, sleeps, and shits embedded research |
| 02:28.13 | prpplague | bioeng: someone who would give up making $100k a year for a $20k a year job working on a cool project |
| 02:28.35 | bioeng | My friend does not make $20k a year at Boeing |
| 02:28.43 | prpplague | bioeng: thats not what i said |
| 02:29.06 | MonMotha | the idea is that you'd give up a $100k job doing something that's only so-so for a $20k or so job that you find really neat |
| 02:29.29 | bioeng | I think being diverse is really awesome |
| 02:29.52 | bioeng | So you're saying embedded is low paying? |
| 02:30.11 | prpplague | bioeng: for someone who has a lot of school, you don't listen very well |
| 02:30.28 | bioeng | I went for four years |
| 02:30.49 | MonMotha | embedded is not always low paying, but finding something in embedded that is worth doing to you can be low paying |
| 02:30.59 | bioeng | Oh |
| 02:31.23 | bioeng | So most of embedded is not worth doing? Such as? |
| 02:31.33 | MonMotha | that's not what I said, either |
| 02:32.34 | prpplague | bioeng: little pop quiz |
| 02:32.35 | MonMotha | embedded is a huge field, and it's hard to be interested in all of it |
| 02:32.43 | prpplague | bioeng: if you were a teacher would you do: |
| 02:33.02 | prpplague | bioeng: A) a rich prep school teaching kids how to ace the act and sat |
| 02:33.30 | prpplague | bioeng: B) work in a getto school teaching bright students how to get out of their slum life |
| 02:33.49 | prpplague | bioeng: C) move to africa and teach kids how to farm and be self sufficient? |
| 02:33.56 | prpplague | now all of these are teaching |
| 02:34.06 | bioeng | Hmmmmm |
| 02:34.06 | prpplague | and all have various degrees of pay |
| 02:34.14 | prpplague | and all have various rewards |
| 02:34.27 | prpplague | but all are teaching |
| 02:34.32 | bioeng | My friend would pick A |
| 02:34.47 | bioeng | I'd pick B |
| 02:34.58 | bioeng | My friend is SO into academics |
| 02:34.59 | prpplague | bioeng: ok so you get my point? |
| 02:35.07 | bioeng | Sort of |
| 02:35.27 | bioeng | The right thing for you depends on the situation you prefer |
| 02:35.41 | prpplague | bioeng: d00d you are beginning to sound like you need to see a shrink about your comparisons to your friend |
| 02:35.52 | bioeng | I'm sorry |
| 02:35.54 | prpplague | bioeng: and what type of rewards you want |
| 02:36.06 | prpplague | bioeng: personally am in the middle at b as well |
| 02:36.14 | bioeng | I don't mean to sound that way about my friend |
| 02:36.35 | prpplague | bioeng: i have lots of financial rewards , but i sacrific making a whole lot of money on principles and what i want to accomplish |
| 02:36.53 | GPSFan | prpplague: evening.. |
| 02:36.57 | prpplague | GPSFan: hey hey |
| 02:37.02 | prpplague | GPSFan: whats cookin? |
| 02:37.05 | bioeng | It's just that my friend was given everything in school |
| 02:37.12 | bioeng | Hey, we do GPS surveying where I work |
| 02:37.26 | bioeng | Haven't done it so much lately because of a project |
| 02:37.29 | prpplague | bioeng: all the more reason not to be envious of her |
| 02:37.50 | GPSFan | prpplague: been a long day, just unwinding a bit, just converted my wol win98 box, linux all the way now, windows free for 1 day!! |
| 02:38.01 | bioeng | Why shouldn't I be envious of her? They gave her scholarship money, tuition waivers |
| 02:38.01 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:38.14 | bioeng | They basically got her her job |
| 02:38.28 | prpplague | bioeng: uh, key word "gave' |
| 02:38.36 | prpplague | bioeng: i earn my shit |
| 02:38.58 | bioeng | I guess I have to earn my job and pay too |
| 02:39.07 | prpplague | fact of life |
| 02:39.30 | prpplague | bioeng: just a side not |
| 02:39.32 | prpplague | note |
| 02:39.41 | bioeng | But she says that if she agreed to work there, the school administrators would get her the Boeing scholarship |
| 02:39.57 | bioeng | That's what happened two years ago |
| 02:40.05 | bioeng | Go ahead |
| 02:40.13 | prpplague | bioeng: i went to school with a guy that got a job at a company doing tech support, he knew nothing about computers |
| 02:40.21 | prpplague | bioeng: but he did have a credit card |
| 02:40.38 | prpplague | bioeng: so when they had problems he just called m$ and used his CC to get major support |
| 02:40.50 | prpplague | bioeng: now this went on for awhile and he looked like a big wig |
| 02:41.03 | prpplague | bioeng: but when they switched systems to a nix ...... |
| 02:41.09 | prpplague | bioeng: he was out of luck on support |
| 02:41.53 | prpplague | bioeng: moral of the story is, any joe smoe can pose at their job, the people who know it and can do it, are respected |
| 02:42.10 | prpplague | bioeng: but anyway.... |
| 02:42.19 | prpplague | bioeng: embedded doesn't sound like your area |
| 02:42.28 | prpplague | bioeng: probably need to go with something like civ |
| 02:42.40 | bioeng | One question: how could you tell? |
| 02:42.46 | bioeng | And what about bio? |
| 02:43.06 | GPSFan | bioeng: howdy, I'm an "embedded" hardware type, it's been my experience that it's something you do after succeeding at (several) other engineering (EE) diciplines. I was able to make the transition to doing some kernel level software after doona hardware design, I'm not sure if going from a software only background to the embedded area is as "easy". |
| 02:43.13 | prpplague | civ is more money oriented, all you need to do is practice what you learned in school |
| 02:44.04 | bioeng | GPSFan: I'm good at hardware. So should I go be a pure EE and then transition into embedded at a later date? |
| 02:44.55 | bioeng | prp: If I used embedded systems in civil projects, are there benefits? |
| 02:45.29 | prpplague | of course |
| 02:45.30 | GPSFan | the major purpose of school is to teach you to think, the detials you learn there you can forget when you get out. I've learned more from non-degreeded engieers after "graduation" than from all (but one) of the prof's I had in school. |
| 02:46.16 | bioeng | prp: Can you think of any? |
| 02:46.32 | prpplague | bioeng: uh off hand, traffic lights |
| 02:46.32 | bioeng | GPSFan: I noticed that at my civil engineering job. |
| 02:46.44 | bioeng | prp: That's so awesome |
| 02:46.49 | prpplague | bioeng: uh, flood detection |
| 02:47.01 | prpplague | bioeng: polution monitoring |
| 02:47.08 | bioeng | prp: Probably would use some sort of sensors for those |
| 02:47.20 | prpplague | uh yea |
| 02:47.47 | bioeng | prp: What is a troll? |
| 02:48.41 | GPSFan | Embedded designers are some of the un-sung heros if the EE industry, they designed the first micro-sats, they designed ther first Mars landers/rovers. they design stuff you will never see in the public press, and will never and can never acknowledge it's existance. |
| 02:50.03 | bioeng | GPSFan: I'm strongly considering taking prp's advice. But what would you recommend as to how I should proceed? |
| 02:50.03 | prpplague | GPSFan: amen |
| 02:50.33 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 02:52.25 | GPSFan | go to school, if you can, finish your degree(s) find a good summer job between semesters, maybe work there after graduation, learn all you can from the "undegreeded" engineers (who may be few and far between) make some bucks and look at what you really like to do, then find a way to do it... |
| 02:53.08 | prpplague | bioeng: which basically points to the fact of what i've been telling you |
| 02:53.15 | prpplague | bioeng: its alot like doing acting or singing |
| 02:53.28 | prpplague | bioeng: not everyone goes from singing school directly to pop stardom |
| 02:53.36 | bioeng | I know that |
| 02:53.38 | prpplague | bioeng: most people start in nasty bars |
| 02:53.42 | bioeng | I didn't mean to imply that |
| 02:54.00 | bioeng | people go to being stars overnight |
| 02:54.15 | GPSFan | it may take a while, but it is possible, and some day your efforts may even be appreciated/rewarded, ( highly unlikely though ;>)) |
| 02:54.18 | prpplague | bioeng: if you want to go directly to some internship and make some big bucks right away, stick with civ |
| 02:54.40 | prpplague | bioeng: don't expect it with embedded |
| 02:54.57 | prpplague | bioeng: and as far as your friend goes, she'll be one of the first cut in a layoff |
| 02:55.26 | bioeng | Why is that? |
| 02:55.30 | bioeng | What makes that so? |
| 02:55.44 | GPSFan | high profile. |
| 02:55.48 | prpplague | high pay |
| 02:55.55 | prpplague | and r&d |
| 02:56.05 | MonMotha | US companies hate R&D these days |
| 02:56.13 | MonMotha | easier to just churn out old, obsolete products from China |
| 02:56.14 | GPSFan | be a grunt for a while, it developes character. |
| 02:57.03 | bioeng | So I should be low profile? |
| 02:57.06 | MonMotha | there are a few that seem to like R&D |
| 02:57.07 | GPSFan | be an R & D designer and embrace the production people, that's how good, profitable products are made. |
| 02:57.14 | MonMotha | just gotta find 'em |
| 02:57.22 | MonMotha | and then make sure you're damn good at it |
| 02:58.17 | bioeng | I probably need to go be an entrepreneur |
| 02:58.53 | bioeng | My parents already have businesses I can integrate into a strong science and engineering organization |
| 02:59.07 | bioeng | *family, not parents |
| 02:59.12 | MonMotha | you could look into Engineering Management |
| 02:59.29 | bioeng | Could be a possibility |
| 02:59.32 | GPSFan | beware the dark side.. |
| 02:59.40 | bioeng | But after my engineering degrees |
| 02:59.47 | MonMotha | there are some entrepreneurial tracks in there |
| 03:00.02 | bioeng | What do they teach? |
| 03:00.05 | GPSFan | btw, read Dilbert, there is more there than meets the eye.. |
| 03:00.23 | MonMotha | bioeng: think management of engineers |
| 03:00.34 | MonMotha | in other words, the go-between between wally and the PHB |
| 03:01.21 | bioeng | What's PHB? |
| 03:01.47 | MonMotha | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy_Haired_Boss |
| 03:01.51 | prpplague | bioeng: how did you get through 4 years of school in computers and electronics without know some of these items? |
| 03:02.24 | bioeng | Southern Illinois University Carbondale, where I go, is a very weak school |
| 03:02.29 | GPSFan | these are essential to being an embedded designer/engineer. |
| 03:03.30 | bioeng | Oh |
| 03:03.31 | GPSFan | finish your degree/s there and transfer to UIUC Chanpagne Urbana |
| 03:03.44 | bioeng | What's the advantage to UIUC? |
| 03:03.56 | GPSFan | they make you think. |
| 03:04.01 | bioeng | I tried to go there, but my dad had issues with me going away |
| 03:04.11 | MonMotha | gogo Rose-Hulman |
| 03:04.41 | bioeng | I have an overall GPA of 3.333 |
| 03:04.55 | bioeng | I don't know if that's good enough for UIUC |
| 03:05.09 | bioeng | It meets the minimum |
| 03:05.18 | bioeng | 3.6 electrical engineering GPA |
| 03:07.12 | bioeng | Would I be able to go to UIUC for a master's? |
| 03:07.19 | GPSFan | as a grad student you would need to impress your sponsor/??? (forgot the proper term ;P) that you were "worthy" |
| 03:07.38 | bioeng | I'd probably do distance education |
| 03:07.56 | bioeng | for a master's |
| 03:07.57 | GPSFan | 3.6/4.0 or 3.6/5.0? times change... |
| 03:08.18 | bioeng | 3.6/4.0 |
| 03:08.39 | bioeng | That's EE |
| 03:08.47 | bioeng | 3.333/4.0 overall |
| 03:09.01 | GPSFan | not too bad, esp. if you are doing multiple majors at the same time. |
| 03:09.22 | bioeng | Civil and bio aren't as impressive of course |
| 03:09.30 | bioeng | just above 3.2 bio GPA |
| 03:09.54 | bioeng | About 3.0, maybe <3.0 civil GPA |
| 03:11.02 | GPSFan | remember that some might say that if you had done "just EE" that you could have gotten a 4.0... |
| 03:12.25 | bioeng | I'd like to do UIUC distance education for a master's |
| 03:12.55 | bioeng | Since I'm needed at home to help support my family, it may be my only option to attend UIUC |
| 03:13.17 | GPSFan | this your senior year? |
| 03:13.36 | bioeng | I'm entering my senior year of EE, and one semester after that I should finish civil |
| 03:14.15 | GPSFan | so, grad EE in June '07, Civ sept '07? |
| 03:14.44 | bioeng | Civ Dec '07 |
| 03:14.49 | GPSFan | k. |
| 03:14.54 | bioeng | EE may '07 |
| 03:15.16 | GPSFan | as I said, times change ;>) |
| 03:15.43 | bioeng | Continue giving advice. I'll brb. |
| 03:16.32 | GPSFan | I gotta go soon, time for ZZZ's. hang around here, and do some embedded linux projects, it will be worth your while. |
| 03:17.10 | bioeng | I'll follow your advice GPS |
| 03:17.11 | bioeng | Thanks |
| 03:17.19 | prpplague | i'm out here, got a fun debug session with some nor flash tomorrow |
| 03:17.19 | prpplague | bioeng: good luck, try something other than embedded |
| 03:17.19 | bioeng | I need to go to bed soon too |
| 03:17.26 | bioeng | Good night |
| 03:54.21 | jbevren | heh. heading to bed with datasheets |
| 03:54.24 | jbevren | I used to do that |
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| 11:26.33 | *** join/#edev T0mW (n=Tom@24.238.68.20.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net) |
| 11:27.01 | T0mW | <blink><blink> morning |
| 12:15.46 | *** join/#edev GPSFan (n=kenm@12.10.255.248) |
| 12:15.46 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 12:22.29 | T0mW | GPSFan: morning Ken |
| 12:22.53 | GPSFan | T0mW: g'day.. |
| 12:23.13 | T0mW | GPSFan: you know anything about latest buildroot? namely purpose of the buildroot/target/device dir? |
| 12:23.29 | T0mW | it looks like it is a chip dir |
| 12:24.06 | T0mW | organized as: manufacture/processor/board |
| 12:24.11 | T0mW | organized as: manufacturer/processor/board |
| 12:24.18 | T0mW | sound right? |
| 12:24.40 | GPSFan | T0mW: haven't used the latest version of buildroot for quite a few "latest versions". there was a time when the "latest version" was badly broken. I found one that worked and stuck with it. |
| 12:25.00 | T0mW | I'm starting with the svn latest |
| 12:25.40 | T0mW | GPSFan: I figure that I'd try a shot at doing a ZipIt buildroot |
| 12:25.41 | GPSFan | yeah, i've been following the mailing list activities, but need an excuse to go out and try the latest. |
| 12:26.17 | T0mW | Ok, I'll wait until prpplague gets back and bug him. heh |
| 12:26.27 | GPSFan | the version I used for OpenZipit worked ok. I used 2 different versions of gcc, one for the userland one for the kernel. |
| 12:26.43 | T0mW | what versions of gcc did you use? |
| 12:27.06 | GPSFan | hold on a sec whil I look it up.. |
| 12:27.09 | T0mW | k |
| 12:28.05 | T0mW | GPSFan: oo! can I get your old buildroot? |
| 12:28.21 | T0mW | tom@openhardware.net |
| 12:28.33 | T0mW | mailto:tom@openhardware.net |
| 12:30.10 | GPSFan | kernel 3.3.3 apps 3.4.2 |
| 12:30.36 | T0mW | any specific reason for that split? |
| 12:31.43 | GPSFan | http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zipitwireless/files/OpenZipit/Applications/Buildroot/ |
| 12:32.52 | GPSFan | T0mW: yes, I couldn't get some of the apps to properly build with 3.3.3, and I couldn't get the kernel to properly build with 3.4.2, and the kernel needed all the optimization I could get to fit in the flash. |
| 12:33.25 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=billybob@72.22.134.23) |
| 12:33.47 | T0mW | ok, so, 3.4.2 should be okay for the kernel then, just that it is a size issue only? |
| 12:34.18 | T0mW | I should be able to build both apps + kernel with 3.4.2, if I ignore the size issue? |
| 12:34.29 | GPSFan | T0mW: I had some compiling issues with 3.4.2 & the kernel, I'm sure you can solve them. |
| 12:34.36 | T0mW | ok |
| 12:35.29 | GPSFan | 3.4.2 may do a better job at optimization than 3.3.3, so solving the compiling issues may result in a smaller kernel, which would be "a good thing" (tm) |
| 12:35.50 | T0mW | heh |
| 12:36.28 | T0mW | prpplague: yo! Dave! Got a question about buildroots' strategy of dirs |
| 12:37.21 | prpplague | T0mW: ok |
| 12:37.24 | prpplague | T0mW: shoot |
| 12:38.02 | T0mW | the buildroot/target/device dir, is that to be organized as: manufacturer/chip/board ? |
| 12:38.20 | T0mW | e.g. Sharp/arm/LNode80 |
| 12:38.27 | GPSFan | T0mW: in other Zipit related news, my Zipit weather station controller died. ;>( the LT3406 "shorted out" . I replaced it and the Zipit runs fine again. it was on 7/24 for ~9 months when it died. |
| 12:38.52 | T0mW | GPSFan: it is puny supply |
| 12:39.07 | GPSFan | it's an LT part too.. |
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| 12:39.24 | T0mW | oh, bad news with LT? |
| 12:39.57 | T0mW | I've not really used LT parts a lot, some. |
| 12:40.05 | GPSFan | in a past life I had nothing but problems with LT switchers. things may be better now. but I still shy away from them. |
| 12:40.13 | T0mW | good to know |
| 12:41.07 | T0mW | I recall when I was a line technician, we had a few "favorite" manufacturers that if we saw their chips on the board we would replace them first, even before troubleshooting the board |
| 12:41.10 | GPSFan | this could be just a random failure, as the zipit had seen higher temps for days on end as well as much lower ones. |
| 12:41.59 | GPSFan | i was really bummed, I was hoping for a year of uptime. |
| 12:42.24 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, its pretty much a free for all there at the moment |
| 12:42.44 | prpplague | T0mW: my intention was to re-work that so it had a structure similiar to the linux kernel |
| 12:42.47 | T0mW | GPSFan: maybe replace it with a series regulator: ua78m33 |
| 12:43.07 | GPSFan | T0mW: need the efficiency of a switcher.. |
| 12:43.16 | prpplague | T0mW: i.e. arch/arm/mach-sa1100/shannon |
| 12:43.22 | T0mW | prpplague: ok, I'll follow that then. I see that you do overrides to default locations for config / makefiles in there |
| 12:44.59 | T0mW | prpplague: oh, so you suggest buildroot/target/arm/ep7312/zipit then? |
| 12:46.06 | T0mW | prpplague: I'll fuss with it, get something working, then dump it into the maintainers lap to untangle it at their leisure. |
| 12:46.07 | T0mW | heh |
| 12:46.15 | T0mW | :P |
| 12:50.14 | T0mW | GPSFan: thanks |
| 12:51.56 | prpplague | T0mW: sorry was on the phone tracking a package |
| 12:52.07 | T0mW | np |
| 12:52.22 | T0mW | ok, I see what you are trying to do here |
| 12:52.34 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, yea thats the way i would prefer it |
| 12:53.21 | T0mW | for now, buildroot/target/device/Cirrus/ZipIt/ then |
| 12:53.34 | prpplague | yep |
| 12:53.49 | T0mW | :) |
| 13:05.07 | GPSFan | T0mW: np... |
| 13:42.59 | T0mW | is there a complement to "select" in the menuconfig? Like an "unselect", e.g. 'unselect BR2_PACKAGE_BUSYBOX_SNAPSHOT' ? |
| 13:48.36 | T0mW | nm |
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| 16:19.13 | *** topic/#edev is #edev discussion for small embedded device development and hacking || http://www.elinux.org/wiki/ || http://www.hackaday.com || http://www.linux-hacker.net || I HATE INS AND DoHS |
| 16:19.25 | jbevren | T0mW: not as bad as the 8080 :) |
| 16:19.40 | T0mW | prpplague: Last I looked, the instruction set was the same as it was 25+ years ago and they only boosted the clock to 20MHz. |
| 16:20.21 | T0mW | prolly Zilog is located in somebodys garage or basement today |
| 16:20.38 | prpplague | T0mW: no, you can go 50Mhz now |
| 16:20.44 | prpplague | T0mW: with the ez80 |
| 16:21.26 | prpplague | hehe, wonder what i'd need to change to go from 8 256k x 1 to 2 256k x 4 |
| 16:22.04 | T0mW | it is still a "clunker", like the x86: multiple clocks to pump the operations, not RISC at all |
| 16:22.31 | prpplague | oh oh, how about a msx juicebox cartridge, hehe |
| 16:22.42 | T0mW | shudder |
| 16:23.05 | T0mW | prpplague: you've entirely too much free time on your hands! |
| 16:23.06 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:23.08 | jbevren | prpplague: just address lines heh |
| 16:23.12 | jbevren | er data lines that is |
| 16:23.54 | prpplague | jbevren: i assume it is one data line per chip for the x1 and for the x4 it would 4 lines on one chip and 4 on the other? |
| 16:24.00 | prpplague | T0mW: thanks for the info |
| 16:25.31 | jbevren | prpplague: right |
| 16:25.44 | jbevren | prpplague: the commodore 64 was made with both styles of chips (4164 vs 4464) |
| 16:25.52 | jbevren | it used the same dram refresh circuitry |
| 16:26.23 | prpplague | gotcha |
| 16:26.55 | jbevren | teh 4164 was two-dimensional while the 4464 was three-dimensional |
| 16:26.58 | jbevren | otherwise theyre identical |
| 16:27.27 | prpplague | hmm, basically what i want to see is a msx core system that you can build around |
| 16:28.03 | prpplague | just seems a popular platform that isn't hacked out |
| 16:28.05 | jbevren | and dont you have a pixter to hack? :) |
| 16:28.21 | prpplague | jbevren: yea |
| 16:28.21 | jbevren | hehe |
| 16:28.21 | prpplague | jbevren: always like something on the horizon |
| 16:28.32 | jbevren | I eyeballed the leapster while at walmart last night |
| 16:28.33 | prpplague | jbevren: speaking of which, i got a call from customs this morning |
| 16:28.57 | prpplague | jbevren: seems the 2 pixters i ordered are still making their way through customs |
| 16:29.05 | prpplague | jbevren: yea, forget that one |
| 16:29.49 | jbevren | I couldnt find the third device I talked about |
| 16:29.53 | jbevren | sseems they dont carry them anymore |
| 16:29.59 | jbevren | oh and the vtech one |
| 16:30.01 | jbevren | whats it called |
| 16:30.03 | jbevren | v-smile? |
| 16:30.45 | jbevren | http://www.vtechkids.com/tvLearning_pocket.cfm |
| 16:32.26 | prpplague | yea |
| 16:32.31 | jbevren | haha |
| 16:32.33 | jbevren | 'smartridge' |
| 16:32.42 | prpplague | jbevren: hehe |
| 16:32.46 | prpplague | jbevren: how did that look? |
| 16:32.54 | prpplague | jbevren: i've only seen it online |
| 16:33.09 | jbevren | they didnt have it on a tv of course, but it looks pretty neat |
| 16:33.18 | jbevren | I didnt look close enough to guess at color depth |
| 16:34.00 | prpplague | interesting |
| 16:34.04 | prpplague | wonder whats in ti |
| 16:34.05 | prpplague | it |
| 16:34.20 | jbevren | they have several renditions of the vsmile (console, baby, pocket) |
| 16:34.32 | jbevren | theyre apparently cross compatible |
| 16:34.46 | jbevren | http://www.vtechkids.com/product_page.cfm?productId=364?tvFrom=V.Smile%20Console&productImage=%5Ff%2F%5Fpw%2F%5Fthumb%2F67000%5Fthumb%2Ejpg&productStatus=n&tvFrom=V%2ESmile+Console&productId=364&productType=p&getProp=%5Btype+Function%5D&loadImage=%5Btype+Function%5D&makeComingStripe=%5Btype+Function%5D&makeNewProductSnipe=%5Btype+Function%5D&theType=product |
| 16:34.48 | jbevren | bah |
| 16:34.53 | jbevren | can we get a longer URL? |
| 16:36.19 | prpplague | hehe yea i saw that one |
| 16:40.01 | jbevren | heh cant find any hints on what cpu is used |
| 16:40.13 | jbevren | any idea what cpu vtech is in love with? :) |
| 16:41.18 | prpplague | sorry no, i don't have any of their stuff |
| 16:41.21 | prpplague | been meaning to |
| 16:44.20 | prpplague | i hate it when have ideas i want to try and i don't have the parts to try it |
| 16:44.38 | prpplague | i really have to get my act together and start making my own pcbs |
| 16:55.24 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah, pcbs are cheap to make now |
| 17:16.30 | flyback | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:16.30 | flyback | [13:15] <flyback> [16:13] <flyback> [16:12] <flyback> since the usb id is the same |
| 17:16.30 | flyback | [13:15] <flyback> [16:13] <flyback> [16:12] <flyback> how the hell do I tell which chip I have |
| 17:16.31 | flyback | [13:16] <flyback> [16:13] <flyback> [16:12] <flyback> the 611 the 702 or the 811 |
| 17:19.55 | prpplague | flyback: if you do that again, i'm gonna k/b you |
| 17:34.34 | flyback | wtf for? |
| 17:34.41 | flyback | asking a question? |
| 17:35.24 | prpplague | flyback: no for the massive paste |
| 17:35.29 | CosmicPenguin | you'ave asked it now twice on two channels that I'm on - always cut-n-paste, and its a bit rude to boot |
| 17:35.38 | CosmicPenguin | and its obivous that nobody knows the answer |
| 17:35.41 | flyback | 4 lines is a massive paste? |
| 17:35.46 | CosmicPenguin | s/obivous/obvious/ |
| 17:35.56 | flyback | oooookay |
| 17:37.06 | flyback | as for no one knowing the answer I find that hard to believe has I have heard of this issue before in linux devel |
| 17:37.31 | flyback | figured no one was just aruond last time I asked |
| 17:39.34 | dfarnsworth | T0mW, so what's current best practice for making your own pcbs on the cheap? |
| 18:09.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you get an offer from rmi? |
| 18:10.08 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 18:10.08 | CosmicPenguin | no |
| 18:10.21 | CosmicPenguin | I wasn't on the Alchemy team officially |
| 18:10.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but i figured they needed some linux people |
| 18:10.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but then you aren't in austin |
| 18:10.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: which would be an expensive move |
| 18:11.29 | CosmicPenguin | I don't think any software people were asked to join |
| 18:11.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: only hardware? |
| 18:12.23 | CosmicPenguin | well, that would be the remaining altermative,wouldn't it? |
| 18:12.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or none at all |
| 18:12.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or sales or production or .... |
| 18:12.51 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:12.54 | CosmicPenguin | no, three are definately some people who went over |
| 18:12.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: surprised |
| 18:13.00 | CosmicPenguin | Who, I don't know |
| 18:13.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 18:13.21 | CosmicPenguin | s/three/there/ |
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| 20:46.51 | sunrunner20 | ... |
| 20:46.54 | sunrunner20 | damn you mirc |
| 22:12.02 | MonMotha | mirc sucks |
| 22:12.15 | MonMotha | on windows, use Xircon |
| 22:22.31 | agaffney | on windows, use putty to SSH to a linux box and run irssi in screen |
| 22:23.39 | MonMotha | actually, Xircon is a pretty damn nice client |
| 22:23.45 | MonMotha | I wish it were OSS so I could built it for Linux |
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| 22:41.22 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
| 22:41.29 | prpplague | merry freakin friday |
| 22:42.02 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: greets |
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