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| 12:46.11 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
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| 12:55.25 | lierre | someone already written a qspi driver for rtc ? :D |
| 12:55.46 | lierre | i've written on for the qspi-eeprom |
| 12:55.49 | lierre | that works |
| 12:56.08 | lierre | but the spi-rtc not |
| 12:56.43 | prpplague | lierre: gee, i did not follow a word of that |
| 12:56.56 | lierre | hum? |
| 12:57.09 | lierre | briefly |
| 12:57.21 | lierre | my driver for spi-rtc sucks |
| 12:57.32 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 12:57.43 | lierre | but i don't see why because i've just written on for the eeprom... |
| 12:58.15 | lierre | i've nearly the same function except the sequence of read/write |
| 12:58.43 | lierre | can't see why that doesn't work for the rtc |
| 13:00.11 | lierre | prpplague: have you understand what i said? :p |
| 13:00.22 | lierre | sorry for my english |
| 13:05.55 | lierre | oh, i'm the only one who speaks to myself :/ |
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| 13:35.45 | jbevren | merry freakin tuesday |
| 13:35.48 | jbevren | isnt that how it goes? hehe |
| 13:36.32 | philv | Tuesday isn't as bad as Monday |
| 13:36.38 | philv | But as far as days go, Tuesday is pretty shitty |
| 13:42.24 | prpplague | mondays and fridays |
| 13:42.52 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 13:51.19 | philv | I think I just landed myself a Cadence Allegro license. |
| 13:55.19 | prpplague | philv: better see a doctor and get a shot then |
| 13:56.10 | philv | Haha, not a fan of allegro? |
| 13:56.54 | prpplague | philv: hehe, no clue what it is, just making a joke, hehe |
| 13:57.05 | philv | Oh, haha |
| 14:30.30 | chouimat | morning |
| 14:31.20 | prpplague | hey |
| 14:33.53 | philv | chouimat: I'm jealous that you get to sleep in until 10:30 :P |
| 14:33.57 | philv | ;) |
| 14:35.01 | chouimat | philv: worked until 2 am so :) |
| 14:35.48 | philv | Ahhhhh |
| 14:35.53 | philv | So you deserved it :D |
| 14:37.51 | chouimat | philv: and since I'm waiting after the rest of the team before being able to continue my part ... days are slooooow ;) |
| 14:43.12 | philv | That's pretty swank :D |
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| 15:36.18 | chouimat | hostie!!!!!! |
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| 15:55.51 | LyosNorezel | hey prpplague |
| 15:58.08 | prpplague | LyosNorezel: hey |
| 15:58.31 | LyosNorezel | I ordered a 802.11a/b/g card |
| 15:58.42 | LyosNorezel | for the Access Point |
| 15:59.19 | LyosNorezel | ever so slowly... all the parts are falling in place |
| 16:00.02 | LyosNorezel | now I'm looking for a reasonably priced 512MB SDRAM SODIMM chip |
| 16:00.09 | LyosNorezel | ie, for laptops |
| 16:01.22 | LyosNorezel | and I'm really hoping to find one with the memory chips on just one side |
| 16:01.56 | LyosNorezel | that way it's 4 / 512 = 128MB per IC |
| 16:02.47 | LyosNorezel | that'll equal 32 times the RAM that's currently in the Access Point |
| 16:03.54 | chouimat | LyosNorezel: look at kingston valueram ... got one for 150CAD 2 years ago so now I thinks it's cheaper ... |
| 16:04.17 | LyosNorezel | what's that in USD? |
| 16:05.02 | chouimat | LyosNorezel: back then I think it was around 100 .. |
| 16:05.43 | LyosNorezel | ouch |
| 16:07.07 | chouimat | LyosNorezel: now I can have it for 82CAD (73USD) |
| 16:07.54 | LyosNorezel | ouch |
| 16:08.30 | chouimat | that's for PC3200 ... you might probably find it cheaper in the us anyway |
| 16:09.06 | LyosNorezel | PC3200 is DDR |
| 16:09.11 | LyosNorezel | I need SDRAM |
| 16:11.00 | chouimat | LyosNorezel: PC133 is 95CAD (85usd) for 512 |
| 16:11.41 | LyosNorezel | ouch x3 |
| 16:43.28 | prpplague | unknown class request, type=21, request=23, value=0000, index=0000, length=0 |
| 16:43.32 | prpplague | MonMotha: ping |
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| 16:46.25 | prpplague | lordy i wish i knew someone who could help me with this usb crap |
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| 17:06.09 | chouimat | hi prpplague sjhill |
| 17:10.21 | sjhill | hey chouimat |
| 17:10.37 | LyosNorezel | prpplague: ok... have a SDRAM chip for ye... google again comes up empty |
| 17:10.54 | LyosNorezel | D45128163G5-A75-9JF |
| 17:12.04 | LyosNorezel | anyone else? |
| 17:13.40 | LyosNorezel | hrumph... ne'er mind... the mem stick is a compaq 128MB |
| 17:14.02 | LyosNorezel | 128 / 8 = 16MB per chip |
| 17:14.19 | LyosNorezel | in other words... useless |
| 17:20.04 | jbevren | LyosNorezel: 8Mx8 (64Mbit) |
| 17:20.08 | jbevren | pc133 single-sided |
| 17:20.19 | jbevren | http://swe.aopen.com.tw/testreport/mb/ListTestItem.asp?nothing=nothing&TestFunction=323&Model=512 |
| 17:21.11 | LyosNorezel | thanks |
| 17:21.19 | jbevren | cant really find a pdf though |
| 17:21.57 | LyosNorezel | thats ok |
| 17:22.11 | LyosNorezel | it's too small to be of any use |
| 17:22.49 | jbevren | nod |
| 17:32.48 | LyosNorezel | I really want to find a 4 chip PC133 512MB SODIMM stick |
| 17:34.54 | LyosNorezel | but I really don't want to have to pay 100+USD |
| 17:36.20 | LyosNorezel | know where I can get some SDRAM ICs? |
| 17:36.45 | LyosNorezel | preferably in densities of >64MB per chip? |
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| 18:05.44 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ho ho ho |
| 18:06.01 | CosmicPenguin | ho |
| 18:08.22 | T0mW | prpplague: in USB Hell again, eh? |
| 18:08.34 | sjhill | beats ISA Hell any day |
| 18:08.51 | T0mW | naw, ISA was real simple |
| 18:08.57 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 18:09.11 | T0mW | prpplague: who did you piss-off? heh |
| 18:09.12 | prpplague | T0mW: i'm starting to understand some of it, but its a real mess |
| 18:09.33 | T0mW | prpplague: hey, look who originally spec'ed usb out |
| 18:10.46 | CosmicPenguin | if I say 'svn co url blah' it will check out the whole mess into blah, right? |
| 18:11.59 | T0mW | well, I took my last project and redesigned it. Dropped the 100 lot parts cost by $5, added about 500K more RAM, added another serial port, and added a 10BaseT ethernet (ENC28J60). |
| 18:15.44 | prpplague | cool |
| 18:16.32 | T0mW | prpplague: one cpu to program now instead of two, I'll just use the SD card to store the binaries and load them into RAM to construct the runtime system. |
| 18:17.28 | T0mW | prpplague: there is about 14 different configurations, but mostly a core program with a unique one |
| 18:18.04 | T0mW | prpplague: board is on order, stencil is in, just need to order parts today |
| 18:19.23 | T0mW | prpplague: did you ship that other thing out yet? |
| 18:23.00 | prpplague | T0mW: yea its at fedex, but i won;t have a number for a couple of days, its gotta clear customs before its shipped |
| 18:30.13 | MonMotha | prpplague: pong |
| 18:30.47 | prpplague | MonMotha: this usb stuff is killing me |
| 18:31.11 | prpplague | MonMotha: you ever run into anything that worked fine on a usb1.x but not a usb2.x controller? |
| 18:31.31 | MonMotha | prpplague: no, but it's possible |
| 18:31.45 | MonMotha | mostly stuff that isn't quite USB 1.x compliant |
| 18:32.03 | MonMotha | also, some 2.0 controllers may not take kindly to stuff that was 1.0 but changed in 1.1 (I'm not sure of the scope of those changes, however) |
| 18:32.12 | MonMotha | any symptoms? |
| 18:32.29 | *** part/#edev LyosNorezel (n=lyos@ppp-69-223-82-193.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net) |
| 18:33.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: just that the device shows up for about 30-45 seconds then disappears |
| 18:34.12 | MonMotha | any OS messages? |
| 18:35.05 | prpplague | MonMotha: slave side - http://pastebin.ca/219390 |
| 18:35.13 | prpplague | MonMotha: nothing on the blows side |
| 18:37.09 | MonMotha | so this is a gadget running linux as the slave? |
| 18:37.51 | MonMotha | what's the host side running OS wise? Linux or Dize? |
| 18:37.57 | MonMotha | *doze |
| 18:42.38 | prpplague | doze |
| 18:42.53 | prpplague | MonMotha: linux hosts work perfect, solid |
| 18:43.03 | prpplague | MonMotha: problem comes when its a windows box and usb2.0 |
| 18:44.43 | MonMotha | have you tried a usb2.0 linux host? |
| 18:44.56 | MonMotha | probably more of an OS/USB Stack issue than USB 1.x/2.x |
| 18:45.05 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea thats my guess |
| 18:45.08 | MonMotha | some unimplemented control command |
| 18:45.17 | MonMotha | the way Windows asks for descriptors alone is whacked out |
| 18:45.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey was it you that had the script to do cvs adds from a patch file? |
| 18:45.33 | prpplague | MonMotha: exactly |
| 18:47.09 | MonMotha | prpplague: do you have a USB sniffer for windows? |
| 18:47.41 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea, getting setup to do some testing now |
| 18:54.59 | MonMotha | prpplague: is the device usable during the ~45sec that it is connected to Windows? |
| 18:55.08 | MonMotha | or does it just show up and no communication works? |
| 18:57.19 | prpplague | MonMotha: just shows up with no communication |
| 18:58.31 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: cvs - not really |
| 18:59.43 | prpplague | darn, i wish i could remember who it was |
| 19:00.01 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: oh - heh I had some perforce code to do that |
| 19:00.04 | CosmicPenguin | but it twas ugly |
| 19:03.13 | MonMotha | prpplague: sounds like it's never fully getting enumerated and somethig is timing out |
| 19:03.20 | MonMotha | almost definately an EP0 issue |
| 19:04.33 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea looking that what |
| 19:05.43 | prpplague | MonMotha: http://pastebin.ca/219528 |
| 19:06.34 | T0mW | prpplague: you had built a linux driver for the ENC28J60 so it could function as an ethernet for linux to use. Where is that code? Is that incorporated into the main kernel sources yet? |
| 19:07.15 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/wiki/enc28j60 |
| 19:07.24 | T0mW | prpplague: thanks |
| 19:07.28 | prpplague | not complete cleaned it for submission |
| 19:11.36 | MonMotha | prpplague: I don't have my lookup tables handy to resolve out the bRequest and bRequestType |
| 19:11.39 | MonMotha | anything significant? |
| 19:11.55 | MonMotha | looks like Windows got far enough to set an alternate config |
| 19:11.59 | MonMotha | which means it had the device descriptors |
| 19:13.33 | prpplague | MonMotha: hmmm |
| 19:13.55 | prpplague | MonMotha: when i do a lsusb on my linux box i get this for the gadget device |
| 19:13.58 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:13.58 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:13.58 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:13.58 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:14.06 | prpplague | the reset appears correct |
| 19:14.10 | prpplague | but i get that in the middle |
| 19:15.34 | MonMotha | IIRC, USB spec just says to ignore unknown descriptors |
| 19:15.50 | MonMotha | do you know where those are coming from? |
| 19:16.10 | prpplague | no looking now |
| 19:16.24 | prpplague | i'm wondering if the usb2.0 controller might be choking on that |
| 19:16.39 | MonMotha | that would be more likely a software stack issue |
| 19:16.46 | MonMotha | USB is remarkably software heavy |
| 19:17.08 | MonMotha | have you tried Linux as the host OS on the same hardware as it is choking with on windows? |
| 19:17.21 | MonMotha | just Knoppix or something should do enough to get kernel messages |
| 19:17.38 | MonMotha | linux is usually pretty good about saying why it is disconnecting a USB device if it forcibly does so |
| 19:18.06 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea the linux side works perfect |
| 19:18.12 | prpplague | MonMotha: not had a single problem |
| 19:18.21 | prpplague | MonMotha: only problem is the winblows with usb2.0 |
| 19:19.01 | MonMotha | so linux works fine with a usb2.0 controller? |
| 19:20.57 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:20.58 | CosmicPenguin | depending on what your definition of fine is |
| 19:21.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe exactly |
| 19:22.26 | MonMotha | ok, definately a software issue then |
| 19:22.27 | MonMotha | Linux tends to be more tolerant of errant USB than Windows in my experience |
| 19:22.37 | MonMotha | which is odd because other hardware subsystems are not nearly so forgiving |
| 19:22.44 | CosmicPenguin | thats exactly the opposite of my experience |
| 19:22.58 | CosmicPenguin | we've found many badly behaving devices which Windows accepts and Linux rejects |
| 19:23.09 | MonMotha | Linux seems to happily talk to just about anything remotely USB friendly I throw at it, while windows whines and moans |
| 19:23.10 | CosmicPenguin | and we've found many badly behaving devices that purposely behave badly so they work with Windows |
| 19:23.15 | MonMotha | odd |
| 19:23.27 | MonMotha | now this is EP0 related stuff, not class device, etc. |
| 19:23.37 | CosmicPenguin | Linux works fine with things that are truely compliant |
| 19:23.44 | MonMotha | oh definately |
| 19:23.53 | CosmicPenguin | it gets angry at things that are not |
| 19:24.12 | MonMotha | I've found that there are plenty of ways to make a USB device work in Linux while making Windows very unhappy with it (of course, I'm sure you can do it the other way, as well) |
| 19:24.14 | CosmicPenguin | which is +100 on principle, but -50 on reality |
| 19:24.26 | CosmicPenguin | so there are so many houses in China that don't really care about USB certification |
| 19:24.33 | MonMotha | well, this is certainly true |
| 19:24.47 | MonMotha | actually, none of the devices I've made have been eligible for the USB logo |
| 19:24.52 | MonMotha | but they're still fairly well behaved |
| 19:24.56 | CosmicPenguin | We had one device in particular - we bought a 100 of them for validation |
| 19:25.01 | CosmicPenguin | and Linux just puked on it, every time |
| 19:25.21 | CosmicPenguin | hooked it up to the analyzer and we couldn't believe how out of spec it was |
| 19:25.30 | MonMotha | I'm guessing that's a symptom of testing it on Windows only and doing the "tweak until it works" philosophy |
| 19:25.43 | chouimat | hehe |
| 19:26.05 | MonMotha | I guess what I'm going at is that Linux is more tolerant of oddities that are technically still within the USB spec (or not too far from it), but that are holy hell uncommon |
| 19:26.17 | MonMotha | like boatloads of extra descriptors that don't mean anything |
| 19:27.34 | MonMotha | most USB devices definately seem to be built with the "mess with it until Windows talks to it, then ship it" mentality, rather than by actually consulting the USB specs |
| 19:31.19 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea thats where we are now |
| 19:31.30 | prpplague | MonMotha: usb spec aint helping |
| 19:32.54 | *** join/#edev philv (n=philv@plasticnetworks.com) |
| 19:37.29 | MonMotha | prpplague: unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with the USB gadget stuff |
| 19:37.35 | MonMotha | I mostly do USB enabled micros |
| 19:37.37 | MonMotha | tiny stuff |
| 19:37.54 | prpplague | MonMotha: ahh, ok, np then |
| 19:38.03 | prpplague | MonMotha: just frustrated |
| 19:38.07 | MonMotha | oh, I understand |
| 19:38.16 | MonMotha | I've run into similar problems before |
| 19:38.16 | CosmicPenguin | oops |
| 19:38.36 | MonMotha | I'd see if you can't track down where those extra descriptors are coming from |
| 19:40.18 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea, i can't seem to find them |
| 19:43.26 | MonMotha | well, they all have a type of 0x24, which suggests that they're attempting to explain something |
| 19:43.46 | MonMotha | I unfortunately don't do this so much that I have the numbers memorized :) |
| 19:43.55 | MonMotha | or perhaps fortunately... |
| 19:44.45 | prpplague | MonMotha: you think thats in decimal or hex? |
| 19:45.07 | MonMotha | looks like hex |
| 19:45.16 | MonMotha | that's the whole descriptor |
| 19:45.21 | MonMotha | the first byte is length, second is type |
| 19:45.39 | prpplague | hmm |
| 19:45.43 | MonMotha | the separation into 5 groups of 2 digits (for the first one, where the first number is 5) suggests hex to me |
| 19:46.12 | prpplague | hmm, 0x24 would be USB_DT_CS_INTERFACE |
| 19:47.51 | MonMotha | as a descriptor type? |
| 19:50.34 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:52.56 | prpplague | those all appear to be cdc specific |
| 19:56.36 | MonMotha | hum, ok |
| 19:56.41 | MonMotha | interesting that Linux is saying they are unknown |
| 19:59.17 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:59.34 | MonMotha | what does bRequestType 161 work out to? I presume class |
| 20:00.33 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea thats part of the cdc subclass |
| 20:00.49 | MonMotha | ok |
| 20:00.58 | MonMotha | that log you posted last from the gadget is from windows talking to it? |
| 20:01.09 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:01.56 | MonMotha | what is CDC request 34? |
| 20:02.41 | prpplague | set_control_line_state |
| 20:03.01 | MonMotha | ok, what do value and index mean in that context? |
| 20:03.06 | prpplague | normally that should be called once |
| 20:03.14 | MonMotha | (I don't have the CDC spec handy) |
| 20:03.29 | MonMotha | I figured, and Windows is calling it...lots of times |
| 20:03.33 | MonMotha | then giving up, presumably |
| 20:05.05 | prpplague | yea, basically just tells the dce that the carrier detect is there |
| 20:05.13 | prpplague | normally its not used |
| 20:05.21 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:05.48 | MonMotha | index would be the interface number in this case, I guess, since requesttype says it's addressing the interface |
| 20:06.01 | MonMotha | chouimat: They're not exactly light reading... |
| 20:06.15 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:06.20 | MonMotha | prpplague: can you pull the index and value for all those repeated requests from windowS? |
| 20:06.22 | MonMotha | they're not in the log |
| 20:06.43 | chouimat | prpplague: you know the funny thing lately some of the email about commit on the current projects are classified as spam ... my religious filters get them |
| 20:06.48 | prpplague | MonMotha: not from windows, i can add a debug print |
| 20:07.10 | MonMotha | that could be useful |
| 20:07.31 | MonMotha | also, verification of the response that Linux sends might be handy |
| 20:07.36 | MonMotha | gogo debug by printf |
| 20:07.59 | chouimat | MonMotha: printf or cout ... the most usefull invention of modern days :) |
| 20:08.35 | MonMotha | indeed |
| 20:08.45 | MonMotha | or twiddling spare IOs on a micro, in my case |
| 20:08.57 | MonMotha | digital storage logic analyzers are very useful :) |
| 20:09.04 | MonMotha | especially since I'm too damned cheap to buy JTAG pods |
| 20:09.30 | chouimat | MonMotha: I'm just building the firmware ... so I only use jtag and serial |
| 20:10.12 | prpplague | MonMotha: you can get a nice jtag device for less that $100 these days |
| 20:11.02 | MonMotha | prpplague: the issue is that the JTAG debugging interfaces are often not docuemented by the manufacturer (only the flash programming interface and pin boundary scan interfaces usually are) |
| 20:11.11 | MonMotha | so you have to use their software for debugging, and they only talk to their JTAG pods |
| 20:11.22 | prpplague | ahh |
| 20:11.32 | prpplague | don't have that problem with the arm7 and arm9 cores |
| 20:11.34 | MonMotha | I've certainly done my share of bit-banging jtag off a parallel port an such |
| 20:11.46 | MonMotha | but that only works when the interfaces are reasonably documented |
| 20:12.00 | MonMotha | you've done remote debugging via jtag on those? |
| 20:12.05 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:12.11 | prpplague | using a variety of tools |
| 20:12.18 | prpplague | MonMotha: but most recently with openocd |
| 20:12.23 | prpplague | which is very nice indeed |
| 20:12.26 | prpplague | ~openocd |
| 20:12.59 | chouimat | http://openocd.berlios.de/web/ |
| 20:13.07 | chouimat | prpplague: sorry was away ;) |
| 20:13.08 | MonMotha | hum, interesting |
| 20:13.15 | prpplague | ~openocd is http://openocd.berlios.de/web/ |
| 20:13.16 | purl | prpplague: okay |
| 20:13.19 | prpplague | ~openocd |
| 20:13.20 | purl | from memory, openocd is http://openocd.berlios.de/web/ |
| 20:13.38 | MonMotha | I guess Motorola and Atmel have to sell you something seeing as how they give away pretty much everything, including craptons of hardware |
| 20:13.44 | philv | ~philv |
| 20:13.46 | purl | it has been said that philv is jesus |
| 20:13.53 | prpplague | ~bastard |
| 20:14.02 | philv | Oh that is nice |
| 20:14.11 | prpplague | ~bastard is a word often used to describe USB |
| 20:14.12 | purl | ...but bastard is already something else... |
| 20:14.32 | prpplague | ~bastard is also a word often used to describe USB |
| 20:14.33 | purl | prpplague: okay |
| 20:14.40 | prpplague | ~bastard |
| 20:14.53 | wmat | no more Lik-Sang *sniff* *sniff* |
| 20:15.06 | chouimat | ? |
| 20:15.08 | prpplague | wmat: doh? what happened? lawsuit? |
| 20:15.14 | philv | MonMotha: free hardware from Moto? I want to get me some of those big fat PowerQUICCs, hehe |
| 20:15.16 | wmat | sony squashed them |
| 20:15.22 | wmat | http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3901 |
| 20:15.33 | MonMotha | philv: well, I was referring mostly to Atmel wrt the hardware |
| 20:15.35 | philv | wmat: it's okay, Sony is doomed to fail anyways |
| 20:15.40 | philv | The PS3 is already flopping (!) |
| 20:15.42 | MonMotha | Motorola pretty much only gives away dev software |
| 20:15.48 | philv | Ohh |
| 20:16.04 | MonMotha | yeah, I'm f'ing pissed with Sony right now...not over that so much as all the other crap they've done recently |
| 20:16.10 | MonMotha | they just keep digging their hole deeper |
| 20:16.21 | prpplague | jeeeze |
| 20:16.38 | philv | They were running on momentum from the 1980's |
| 20:16.44 | chouimat | this one is still open http://www.gocybershop.ca/ |
| 20:16.51 | philv | And that momentum has run out |
| 20:16.55 | philv | And they realize it |
| 20:16.58 | wmat | that's around the corner from my house |
| 20:17.51 | wmat | i bought a dreamcast coders cable from them ages ago, good to see they're still alive |
| 20:18.10 | philv | I want an ethernet module for my DC :( |
| 20:18.34 | chouimat | wmat: I'm planning to order one and the mouse,keyboard |
| 20:19.06 | prpplague | T0mW: ping |
| 20:19.25 | wmat | chouimat: excellent |
| 20:19.31 | philv | I want a PS1 devkit as well |
| 20:19.38 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah |
| 20:19.40 | wmat | please do Linux dev on the DC |
| 20:19.46 | prpplague | T0mW: got a sec |
| 20:19.49 | prpplague | T0mW: ? |
| 20:19.53 | T0mW | prpplague: ok |
| 20:19.53 | CosmicPenguin | heh - i have the PS2 kit |
| 20:20.05 | CosmicPenguin | well - had - that PS2 bit the dust |
| 20:20.22 | prpplague | T0mW: i have two 5v sources |
| 20:20.29 | prpplague | T0mW: one that is always on |
| 20:20.35 | MonMotha | shit I want a PS1 devkit |
| 20:20.44 | prpplague | T0mW: second one might or might not be on depending on the condition |
| 20:20.54 | MonMotha | actually being able to debug PSX programs? very handy... |
| 20:20.54 | T0mW | ok |
| 20:21.02 | T0mW | prpplague: ok |
| 20:21.40 | prpplague | T0mW: i want to take the first 5v source and drop it to 2.5v for and output line, and when the second source is on the output line would read 5v |
| 20:21.53 | philv | CosmicPenguin: how'd you get that? |
| 20:22.06 | CosmicPenguin | philv: bought it when they first came out |
| 20:22.07 | prpplague | T0mW: basically a hack to determine which sources are on |
| 20:22.17 | MonMotha | yeah, Sony sold the PS2 Linux kit |
| 20:22.22 | MonMotha | was similar to Net Yaroze |
| 20:22.26 | prpplague | T0mW: i guess it could be 3.3v and 5v |
| 20:22.33 | prpplague | T0mW: i was just thinking 1/2 |
| 20:22.39 | T0mW | prpplague: why not use a zenor diode? |
| 20:22.46 | philv | Oooh |
| 20:22.46 | philv | The Linux kit |
| 20:22.55 | T0mW | prpplague: or just a simple resistive divider? |
| 20:22.57 | philv | I want the Linux kit :( |
| 20:23.12 | wmat | philv: for what, PS2? |
| 20:23.12 | T0mW | prpplague: string two 4.7K resistors in series |
| 20:23.39 | prpplague | T0mW: for the first 5v source? |
| 20:23.40 | T0mW | prpplague: attach one end of the string to ground, the other to the switched +5V source |
| 20:23.48 | philv | wmat: yeah |
| 20:23.53 | philv | wmat: I have linux running on my DC already :) |
| 20:24.10 | T0mW | prpplague: then tap into the junction between the two resistors to get your 2.5V signal? |
| 20:24.35 | wmat | philv: me too, although i haven't powered it up in a month or so |
| 20:24.39 | prpplague | T0mW: ok , so how to connect the secondary 5v supply? |
| 20:24.43 | T0mW | prpplague: I assume you only want to monitor to see when the switched (not always there) +5V is present? Not to draw power from it @ 2.5V? |
| 20:24.56 | prpplague | T0mW: correct |
| 20:24.57 | philv | wmat: been longer for me I suppose |
| 20:25.05 | wmat | philv: the linux-sh project could always use another dev ;) |
| 20:25.07 | philv | wmat: is the Yaroze actually a devkit? Or is it just like the linux kit? |
| 20:25.21 | prpplague | T0mW: basically like this output: 0v both off, 2.5v primary on, 5v both on |
| 20:25.48 | philv | wmat: funny, I was thinking of making something wih an SH4 in it, so never know, maybe someday I'll contribute ;) |
| 20:25.53 | MonMotha | philv: more similar to the linux kit |
| 20:25.55 | philv | wmat: for now I just sorta |
| 20:25.55 | philv | putter along |
| 20:26.05 | wmat | philv: Yaroze? |
| 20:26.11 | MonMotha | designed to give people who wanted to do homebrew an option without resorting to "illegal" methods like modding their PSX |
| 20:26.11 | philv | With MIPS |
| 20:26.12 | philv | ;) |
| 20:26.18 | philv | The PS1 commodity devkit |
| 20:26.24 | T0mW | prpplague: ah, you want to see if both are on, or both off, or only one is on |
| 20:26.35 | philv | MonMotha: oh I see |
| 20:26.47 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 20:26.57 | MonMotha | the PS2 Linux kit took the abstraction layers a bit further, running just about everything through a HAL and forbiding access to the DVD drive |
| 20:27.15 | philv | Yeah, but Yaroze was a little more flexible? |
| 20:27.30 | MonMotha | a little, from what I've gathered |
| 20:27.36 | T0mW | prpplague: can you read the analog value of the voltage line (A/D converter) or just digitally 0 / 1 value (on / off), what is the capability of your input pin (monitoring thingy) |
| 20:27.44 | MonMotha | of course, for the PSX, there's plenty of completely open stuff now (Not Yaroze, for example) |
| 20:27.44 | philv | Hmm, one on eBay right now |
| 20:28.00 | MonMotha | PS2 hasn't been reverse engineerd as completely |
| 20:28.10 | MonMotha | and neither is a real dev kit |
| 20:28.28 | philv | I'd love to get a PS2 devkit |
| 20:28.34 | MonMotha | the real dev kits are production hardware basically, but usually double RAM, runs unsigned programs, and generally has some sort of PC interface for remote debugging |
| 20:28.45 | MonMotha | oh good luck... |
| 20:28.51 | MonMotha | those things are NDA'd out the ass |
| 20:28.58 | philv | Yeah |
| 20:29.03 | philv | I imagine :( |
| 20:29.09 | MonMotha | PS2 isn't all that neat anyway |
| 20:29.25 | wmat | i see DC dev machines occasionally on ebay |
| 20:29.28 | prpplague | T0mW: transitor on the receiving side would be geared to triger at 2.5 for one line and 5v for the other |
| 20:29.29 | MonMotha | PSX was cool for its time, PS3 has a cell, PS2 is not that special |
| 20:29.33 | wmat | Katana's I think they're called |
| 20:29.47 | MonMotha | would be like wanting an XBox dev kit...dur, go get a PC? |
| 20:29.53 | philv | wmat: really?! Cool |
| 20:29.59 | philv | I've seen GDROM burners and such |
| 20:30.09 | philv | MonMotha: Or a G5 for Xbox 360 |
| 20:30.16 | wmat | yeah, it's the blank GDROMs that are rare |
| 20:30.32 | philv | Yeah |
| 20:30.32 | T0mW | prpplague: um, so you are not having the CPU look at the voltage then? Only have the presence of the voltage to "do something" to the electronics? |
| 20:31.01 | MonMotha | I know somebody who acquired one of the playstation dev kit CD burners |
| 20:31.03 | prpplague | T0mW: yea the cpu will look at the gpio lines, i don't have any adc available |
| 20:31.10 | MonMotha | lets you burn playstation games that'll run on unmodded playstations :) |
| 20:31.24 | MonMotha | of course, that's pretty much useless these dyas |
| 20:31.40 | philv | Hehe |
| 20:31.54 | philv | Is there a way around the PSX security features like with the DreamCast now? |
| 20:32.39 | T0mW | prpplague: ok, you will need two input pins then |
| 20:32.55 | MonMotha | philv: not to my knowledge, though swap discs are readily available |
| 20:33.12 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, basically i'm trying to read two 5v inputs but i only have one external pin available |
| 20:33.14 | philv | Ahh yeah |
| 20:33.38 | philv | I think when I was buying PSX games I basically bought everything I could want |
| 20:33.57 | philv | No need to resort to piracy or anything ;)))) |
| 20:35.23 | wmat | philv: psx security features? |
| 20:35.28 | MonMotha | my big issue is the stupid region locks |
| 20:35.39 | philv | Region locks, yeah |
| 20:35.53 | MonMotha | most of the games I play don't have a US release, or if they do, it isn't worth playing compared to the Japanese one |
| 20:35.59 | MonMotha | well, Japanese ones plural, usually |
| 20:36.14 | philv | Haha |
| 20:36.24 | philv | The last game I played was Xenogears |
| 20:36.27 | T0mW | prpplague: http://www.openhardware.net/foo.gif |
| 20:36.29 | philv | That was a fun one |
| 20:36.58 | T0mW | prpplague: put the connection labeled "2.5V" on your CPU I/O input pin |
| 20:37.20 | T0mW | prpplague: "1" == power is there, "0" == no power |
| 20:37.49 | T0mW | prpplague: circuit will only cost 5 cents in 100/lot |
| 20:37.51 | T0mW | heh |
| 20:38.46 | T0mW | I really like KDE 3.5! |
| 20:40.44 | prpplague | T0mW: hmm, think i'm still not explaining properly |
| 20:41.28 | prpplague | T0mW: hehehe let me try again |
| 20:41.51 | prpplague | T0mW: i have two 5v power sources and only one output line |
| 20:42.17 | prpplague | T0mW: i want the output line to read 2.5v when one of the 5v power supplies is on and 5v when both are on |
| 20:43.17 | T0mW | prpplague: but, without a analog to digital converter to determine if it is 2.5 or 5 volts... |
| 20:43.41 | T0mW | prpplague: an input pin is either on or it is off |
| 20:43.43 | prpplague | T0mW: simple resistor ladder on the other side |
| 20:43.58 | prpplague | T0mW: correct, i have TWO inputs on the cpu |
| 20:43.58 | T0mW | prpplague: but you cannot read that volage |
| 20:44.02 | T0mW | ah |
| 20:44.31 | T0mW | so, put two of those resistive dividers on the board (four resistors) |
| 20:45.09 | prpplague | that gives me two 2.5v outputs and i need one 5v |
| 20:45.16 | T0mW | prpplague: hook "any 5v" to one 5v supply on one dividor and hook the "2.5v" to one input pin, repeat |
| 20:45.37 | prpplague | hehe still missing it |
| 20:46.01 | prpplague | T0mW: i have two input pins going from the cpu board but only ONE wire between the cpu board and the device |
| 20:46.18 | T0mW | prpplague: with a "ladder" you won't get a full 5volts, either 2.5 or 3.something volts, |
| 20:47.02 | prpplague | hmm |
| 20:47.21 | T0mW | prpplague: no |
| 20:48.18 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:48.44 | prpplague | T0mW: the resistor ladder is working, i can do 3.3v and 5v |
| 20:49.15 | prpplague | T0mW: and it is broken into 00b 01b or 11b |
| 20:49.30 | prpplague | T0mW: ie 0v 3.3v 5v |
| 20:49.55 | T0mW | prpplague: I think that I know what you want to do, but, it is not as simple as all that without an A/D convertor someplace. You could use comparators but you would need prolly three comparators to determine if any 5volt source is either on / off. On the "far side" you could construct a resistance node that would give differing voltage values depending upon which 5v source is on. However, discriminating what 0,2.5,3 and 4 volts means would |
| 20:49.55 | T0mW | have to be done via some analog logic |
| 20:50.31 | T0mW | prpplague: you have four states so the resistance node would have to result in four voltages |
| 20:50.50 | prpplague | T0mW: normally that is correct , but we only have 3 |
| 20:50.58 | prpplague | T0mW: 0v 3.3v and 5v |
| 20:51.12 | prpplague | T0mW: the secondary source is never on without the primary being on |
| 20:52.22 | T0mW | prpplague: ok, why not put a PIC on the "far side" it has an A/D convertor built in, let that monitor your supplies, then bit-bang a serial stream back to your CPU. Heck, make it a "one-wire" serial port even? |
| 20:52.31 | prpplague | T0mW: $$ |
| 20:53.07 | MonMotha | IIRC Maxim/Dallas have some voltage monitoring stuff that may do what you need. Not sure on $$ though |
| 20:53.09 | prpplague | T0mW: this is an excerise in fixing a f'ip |
| 20:53.12 | MonMotha | certainly more than some resistors |
| 20:53.21 | T0mW | $$ either way, the analog discrimation logic will cost $1..$2, without an A/D, you cannot put four states of data across a single wire. |
| 20:53.45 | prpplague | hehe just need 3 hehe |
| 20:53.51 | T0mW | either way |
| 20:53.58 | prpplague | T0mW: well the ladder on the cpu side is working |
| 20:54.16 | prpplague | T0mW: just trying to figure out how to do it on the power side for combining the two voltages |
| 20:54.26 | T0mW | prpplague: no, four: +5v#1 off, +5v#2 off, +5v#1 on, +5v#2 on |
| 20:55.11 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe thats normally the case, but since +5V#2 can not be on without +5v#1 being on, we only have three |
| 20:55.24 | prpplague | T0mW: 00b 01b 11b |
| 20:55.57 | T0mW | prpplague: so you waste a state, still have four states. Just one unused. You still have two input pins: 4 states |
| 20:56.17 | prpplague | T0mW: agree, but i only need three values to be represented |
| 20:56.58 | prpplague | T0mW: 0v produces 00b , 2.5-3.3v does 01b, and 5v does 11b |
| 20:57.00 | T0mW | prpplague: you can do, prolly, with one LM3900 (a dual comparator 8pin) and a set of, prolly, 4..5 resistors on the "far side". |
| 20:57.29 | T0mW | prpplague: forget zenors |
| 20:58.07 | prpplague | T0mW: what about using a lm317 with something to control the voltage setting? |
| 20:59.40 | T0mW | prpplague: you are still thinking of a ladder on the receiving end. Won't work digitally with passive logic. |
| 20:59.52 | prpplague | hmm, seems to work |
| 21:01.55 | T0mW | prpplague: technically, it could be possible to design a resistive network that would generate a signal from 0..5v at the "far side" to affect the single wire. Yes. |
| 21:03.27 | T0mW | prpplague: technically, you could build a resistive network to generate a series of voltages on the input pins to reflect what the level of that voltage is: e.g. "it is >= 2.5v" AND "it is >= 3.5v" |
| 21:03.56 | MonMotha | T0mW: you can use PWM type stuff to send tons of info over a single IO |
| 21:03.59 | prpplague | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_Ladder |
| 21:04.17 | prpplague | T0mW: thats all i did on the cpu side, and connected each bit to a gpio |
| 21:04.21 | T0mW | MonMotha: good point, you need a VCO |
| 21:04.33 | MonMotha | ramp generator and a comparator will do in this case |
| 21:04.39 | T0mW | MonMotha: right |
| 21:04.54 | MonMotha | still lots of $$ just to save a single IO |
| 21:04.59 | T0mW | more active logic, prpplague is trying to avoid using "chips" |
| 21:05.40 | MonMotha | yeah, minimum is a cap, current source (one transistor minimum), and something to reset it |
| 21:05.53 | T0mW | within a narrowly defined spec, you could use a resistive network to get the job done, but it depends greatly on what info is to be sensed. |
| 21:05.56 | MonMotha | then you need the comparator |
| 21:06.31 | T0mW | MonMotha: zenor + resistor + 2 fets to form the discharge |
| 21:06.43 | T0mW | MonMotha: zenor + 2 resistors + 2 fets to form the discharge |
| 21:07.02 | T0mW | sawtooth |
| 21:07.30 | MonMotha | yeah, that certainly works |
| 21:07.35 | MonMotha | you can also use a 555 |
| 21:07.48 | MonMotha | cost and board area is likely comparable |
| 21:07.50 | T0mW | prpplague: that would be your simplest way: a VCO (voltage controlled osc) |
| 21:07.52 | MonMotha | 555s are cheap |
| 21:09.08 | T0mW | it would give him three states: no signal == no power at all, slow signal == a power supply is on, faster signal == other supply is also on. |
| 21:09.21 | MonMotha | yeah, you can do it without a full VCO |
| 21:09.41 | MonMotha | though full VCOs are readily available pre-packaged fairly cheap now |
| 21:09.57 | T0mW | agreed, you can simplify it as you don't need that level of precision that a true VCO affords |
| 21:10.07 | prpplague | hmm interesting |
| 21:10.21 | MonMotha | you could also use a counter with the second power supply controlling the reload to divide down a clock |
| 21:10.24 | T0mW | still yields about half inch of board area though |
| 21:10.34 | MonMotha | fi you already have a clock source handy of a suitable frequency, that may work |
| 21:10.35 | T0mW | maybe 0.3" |
| 21:11.43 | T0mW | MonMotha: ah, ramp generator + comparator. Modulate the rate of rise on the ramp due to external supply presence would give varying freq |
| 21:11.58 | MonMotha | hum, that's a good idea too |
| 21:12.06 | prpplague | getting a little too complicated for me, hehe |
| 21:12.18 | T0mW | prpplague: problem solved: $50 please remit via paypal. heh |
| 21:13.37 | MonMotha | hah |
| 21:13.37 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:13.37 | prpplague | T0mW: not what i was looking for |
| 21:13.38 | T0mW | prpplague: any decent electronics engineer can cobble it together. |
| 21:13.38 | prpplague | T0mW: i wanted to do some learning, hehe |
| 21:15.05 | T0mW | one FET + one Cap + two Resistors for the ramp generator. One FET + one Resistor for the comparator. then measure the duration of the pulse width |
| 21:15.08 | MonMotha | oh heck, do you have a clock source handy? |
| 21:15.13 | MonMotha | you can get this down to a single OR gate |
| 21:15.26 | T0mW | heh |
| 21:15.28 | prpplague | MonMotha: no clock source handy |
| 21:15.35 | MonMotha | well, OR and an AND if the clock doesn't go away when both power sources die |
| 21:15.48 | T0mW | prpplague: how about a switching regulator ? |
| 21:15.51 | MonMotha | ah, then t0mw's solution is probably better since you'll be buildnig an oscillator anyway |
| 21:16.00 | MonMotha | yeah, any clock source will do |
| 21:16.07 | MonMotha | at a reasonable frequency |
| 21:16.30 | T0mW | at any reasonably stable frequency |
| 21:16.33 | T0mW | heh |
| 21:16.46 | MonMotha | it doesn't even need ot be all that stable in this case |
| 21:16.47 | T0mW | some of those switchers tend to wander a lot |
| 21:16.55 | prpplague | hmm nope, nothing in that area |
| 21:17.00 | prpplague | thanks for the help |
| 21:17.13 | MonMotha | 5V2 OR (5V1 AND CLOCK) |
| 21:17.41 | MonMotha | that'll get you nothing if 5V1 (and by extension 5V2) is off, wiggling if just 5V1 is on, and constant 1 if both are on |
| 21:18.36 | MonMotha | if your OR gate is tolerant of input while powered off (some are), you can yank the and gate out and just power the OR from 5V1 for the same effect, CLK or 5V2 |
| 21:18.44 | MonMotha | 1 gate |
| 21:19.00 | MonMotha | but you need a clock, and he's gone anyway :) |
| 21:21.55 | T0mW | MonMotha: Kirchoff + Ohms Law stuff |
| 21:26.01 | MonMotha | that still requiers two IOs |
| 21:29.23 | T0mW | MonMotha: that was ok, just that he had one wire from board-to-board to send that two pins of data across |
| 21:33.27 | MonMotha | ah, ok |
| 21:33.48 | MonMotha | I was under the impression that he wanted to only use one uP IO |
| 21:34.34 | T0mW | MonMotha: your solution with the pwm was fine, I liked it better than the resistance network |
| 21:36.08 | MonMotha | heh, I was trying to work with the single IO "requirement" |
| 21:36.15 | MonMotha | the resistance network is no doubt cheaper |
| 21:39.37 | T0mW | the problem becomes one of: source resistance, load resistance and tolerances though |
| 21:39.37 | T0mW | ... in the resistance network that is |
| 21:39.37 | T0mW | MonMotha: heh, we are agreed on one thing though. A solution is possible, but it is darned difficult to "guess" at what it could be without getting into the electronics / pcb layout they currently are using |
| 21:39.43 | MonMotha | definately |
| 21:40.16 | T0mW | hmm, weather channel is calling for snow tomorrow morning |
| 21:40.59 | MonMotha | heh |
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| 21:43.34 | LyosNorezel | oh? do share the stupid question... |
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