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| 00:00.48 | denis_ | sorry to bother, but somebody could help me to crosscompile from intel@gentoo to arm@zipit (Adams)? |
| 00:04.57 | Crofton | all the buildroot guys may have gone home ... |
| 00:05.21 | denis_ | :( |
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| 12:25.16 | prpplague | ~quote scox |
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| 12:30.07 | prpplague | mallum: greetings |
| 12:30.14 | prpplague | mallum: hows things in the UK today? |
| 12:30.21 | mallum | hey prpplague |
| 12:30.23 | mallum | wet and grey :( |
| 12:32.14 | prpplague | mallum: lovely |
| 12:32.25 | prpplague | mallum: wanna trade? |
| 12:33.40 | mallum | are you in US now ? |
| 12:34.40 | prpplague | still in barbados |
| 12:34.48 | prpplague | mallum: heading back to the states on dec 28th |
| 12:35.27 | mallum | cool |
| 12:35.27 | mallum | texas ? |
| 12:35.27 | prpplague | mallum: trying to tie up all the loose ends and get all the visa paperwork all done |
| 12:35.28 | prpplague | mallum: ya, back to big D |
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| 12:45.02 | Crofton | http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/04/congressman.wife.ap/index.html |
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| 12:50.56 | prpplague | Crofton: jeeze |
| 12:51.10 | prpplague | Crofton: maybe that will shead some light on this crap |
| 12:51.28 | prpplague | Crofton: having it happen to a congressman might help get something done |
| 12:51.59 | Crofton | I think it is a state legilator |
| 12:52.08 | Crofton | they probably will try and deport him also |
| 12:53.05 | prpplague | Crofton: hehe |
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| 14:40.07 | chouimat | morning |
| 14:41.12 | wmat | heh |
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| 16:00.08 | prpplague | doh |
| 16:00.16 | prpplague | crofty missed the news - http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Dec05/0,4670,SenatorapossWifeDeportation,00.html |
| 16:03.52 | chouimat | prpplague: wow ... |
| 16:05.08 | prpplague | helps to have pull |
| 16:05.24 | prpplague | she'd have been deported for sure if it wasn't for the press coverage |
| 16:05.36 | prpplague | there is no way she'd have gotten a one on one with the judge |
| 16:07.06 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (i=nobody@nat/amd/x-0de8df9fd2714b1f) |
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| 16:07.44 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey hey |
| 16:08.02 | CosmicPenguin | mornin |
| 16:12.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: whats cookin? |
| 16:12.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: heard the OLPC sent m$ some units for testing |
| 16:12.46 | CosmicPenguin | I believe thats true, yes |
| 16:15.38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: what was the reasoning behind that? |
| 16:15.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: not like they'd send some of their devices to get linux running on them |
| 16:16.43 | *** join/#edev Crofton (n=balister@hc6521582.dhcp.vt.edu) |
| 16:17.01 | prpplague | Crofton: missed the news - http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Dec05/0,4670,SenatorapossWifeDeportation,00.html |
| 16:18.57 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: its an open platform - OLPC wouldn't be obeying their ideals if they shut somebody out |
| 16:19.22 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: it would be petty to do anything else |
| 16:19.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed that its open, but imho those units need to go to developers who believe in the same priniciples |
| 16:20.16 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: let m$ obtain their units at their own time and expense |
| 16:20.23 | CosmicPenguin | That violates the very definition of an open platform |
| 16:20.50 | CosmicPenguin | We don't ask people's religion and philsophy when we give them source code, we just ask that they respect the limitations we put on that source code |
| 16:21.07 | CosmicPenguin | Same thing with hardware - OLPC is committed to sending platforms to any viable developer that asks for them |
| 16:21.20 | CosmicPenguin | Why then would Microsoft not be a suitable developer? |
| 16:21.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, i disagree with that |
| 16:21.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: because they have already stated that they will be doing a competing project |
| 16:21.50 | CosmicPenguin | thats fine |
| 16:21.56 | CosmicPenguin | the PIC was a competing project too |
| 16:22.22 | CosmicPenguin | The most important thing is that the kids get educated |
| 16:23.18 | CosmicPenguin | As a community, we often complain that we don't get a chance to prove ourselves, and now we're bitching because we're giving Microsoft the same oppertunity |
| 16:23.32 | CosmicPenguin | If open source is so good - then it shouldn't matter if Microsoft got a thousand boards |
| 16:24.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well, its $$ thats the issue to me and the availibilty of the units |
| 16:24.15 | CosmicPenguin | And as a corallary - if Microsoft produces a better software or hardware platform then we do, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves |
| 16:24.15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i see it as those units were taken out of the hands of OSS supporters |
| 16:24.24 | CosmicPenguin | They were not taken out of the hands of anybody |
| 16:24.40 | CosmicPenguin | They didn't even distribute all of the ATest boards - and they built even more Btest boards |
| 16:25.05 | CosmicPenguin | everybody who had (and has) a legitimate reason to develop for OLPC can get a board |
| 16:26.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: do you have to pay for your dev unit? |
| 16:30.16 | CosmicPenguin | me personally? no |
| 16:30.35 | CosmicPenguin | You could argue that AMD has paid either in money or in resources |
| 16:30.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: do any of the developers? |
| 16:30.49 | CosmicPenguin | nobody pays to get a board |
| 16:31.25 | prpplague | ahh |
| 16:33.03 | CosmicPenguin | This is a great oppertunity for the whole community to show that they really care about the ideals that they rally around |
| 16:33.23 | CosmicPenguin | All we've ever asked of any company, big or small, is that they share the goodness with us |
| 16:33.29 | CosmicPenguin | Now its time for us to do it back again |
| 16:34.45 | prpplague | again, i find a large distinction between hardware and software |
| 16:35.15 | prpplague | i can see software sharing, hardware (physical stuff) says $$ to me, someone is paying for that |
| 16:35.30 | CosmicPenguin | somebody is paying for it - but not the developers |
| 16:36.25 | CosmicPenguin | The sponsors got together and agreed to build boards for the purposes of the education project |
| 16:36.48 | CosmicPenguin | They also agreed to send development platforms to anybody who could advance the education project |
| 16:37.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and they believe m$ will help? |
| 16:38.16 | CosmicPenguin | Microsoft has engineers that they are willing to throw at the problem - how can that hurt? |
| 16:38.46 | CosmicPenguin | What if they sent boards to Wind River to put VXWorks on it? |
| 16:38.51 | CosmicPenguin | How about Symbian? |
| 16:38.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: only if they share information, and that you can trust that they aren't going to schuttle the project |
| 16:39.10 | prpplague | i would be equally concerned |
| 16:39.28 | CosmicPenguin | if they destroy the project, then they destroy it |
| 16:39.50 | CosmicPenguin | There is no credible evidence that they would - and if there was, Nicholas wouldn't have involved them |
| 16:40.10 | CosmicPenguin | Nobody would cry if we sent 5 boards to Theo |
| 16:40.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well, no evidence other than the years of examples where m$ has partnered with someone only to backout and destroy the company |
| 16:40.30 | CosmicPenguin | And he's way more dangerous then Microsoft |
| 16:41.09 | CosmicPenguin | Did anybody say Microsoft was partnering in this project? |
| 16:41.12 | CosmicPenguin | Are they a sponsor? |
| 16:41.21 | CosmicPenguin | No - they are a software development team like the rest of us |
| 16:41.44 | prpplague | there is a defacto status of developer by shipping them the units |
| 16:42.02 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah - a lot of boards went out to lots of different developers |
| 16:42.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, don't get your panties in a knot, i'm just arm-chairing this as i'm not even involved, hehe |
| 16:43.36 | CosmicPenguin | There is a real issue here - but people are ignoring it |
| 16:43.53 | CosmicPenguin | The community really has to step up and prove that we can deliver |
| 16:44.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: what is it you think that needs to be delivered? |
| 16:44.28 | CosmicPenguin | that should scare the pants off of everybody involved with linux, especially embedded linux, because if we fail, then the critics have a huge target to shoot at |
| 16:44.58 | CosmicPenguin | If Microsoft can waltz in and make a more compelling product then FOSS in a third of the time - then why should we ever sell a single Linux based device again? |
| 16:45.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i don't think thats a valid assumption |
| 16:45.44 | CosmicPenguin | Instead - everybody is too busy going grade school and throwing a tempertantrum because the OLPC offices dared send 5 boards to Redmond |
| 16:46.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 16:46.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: 4th or 5th grade for me? or even lower? |
| 16:48.06 | CosmicPenguin | that was a little harsh |
| 16:48.09 | CosmicPenguin | but we do need to take the high road |
| 16:48.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: harsh? i was joking |
| 16:48.32 | CosmicPenguin | My comment was a little harsh |
| 16:48.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: oh |
| 16:48.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: not really, i like a frank discussion |
| 16:49.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i just don't that many businesses that use embedded linux are watching the results of OLPC to validate their linux and OSS usage |
| 16:50.16 | prpplague | s/don't/don't think |
| 16:50.38 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I think it won't hurt |
| 16:50.57 | CosmicPenguin | Even now - what do we point at as embedded success stories? |
| 16:50.59 | CosmicPenguin | The Tivo? |
| 16:51.01 | CosmicPenguin | The TomTom |
| 16:51.05 | CosmicPenguin | The Zaurus |
| 16:51.22 | CosmicPenguin | the bigger problem will be the critics |
| 16:51.35 | prpplague | hmm, funny, i don't think of any of those for embedded success |
| 16:51.45 | CosmicPenguin | Because they can use a OLPC failure to prove that closed source is more nimble and adaptable |
| 16:52.05 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: did you see the call for papers for the Embedded track for FOSDEM? |
| 16:52.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 16:52.12 | CosmicPenguin | They listed the Tivo and the TomTom by name |
| 16:52.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: interesting |
| 16:53.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: funny how people see things in different ways |
| 16:53.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so what aspect of the community with regards to OLPC do you think is currently lacking? |
| 16:54.22 | CosmicPenguin | we need to start polishing the apple |
| 16:54.56 | CosmicPenguin | bringing together the parts - optimizing speed and size, cleaning up graphics, eliminating some of the rough edges |
| 16:57.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmmm |
| 16:57.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so whats the distribution of developers who are being paid to work on OLPC vs. volunteer? |
| 17:00.28 | CosmicPenguin | Most of the OLPC developers are being paid by either AMD (me), OLPC or Redhat |
| 17:00.57 | CosmicPenguin | there are a few volunteer members of the core team - most notably Jon Corbet |
| 17:01.15 | CosmicPenguin | I think the sugar team has a larger number of volunteers |
| 17:02.05 | Crofton | anyone here thinking of going to FOSDEM? |
| 17:02.15 | CosmicPenguin | I asked to go |
| 17:02.28 | CosmicPenguin | Request is now festering in the bowels of amd central |
| 17:03.11 | prpplague | Crofton: i considered submitting a paper and/or just going |
| 17:03.11 | prpplague | Crofton: but i think i'm gonna hold out for OLS |
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| 17:14.24 | prpplague | doh |
| 17:14.30 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 17:14.42 | Crofton | nope |
| 17:17.06 | prpplague | Crofton: i thought about going to fosdem, but i think i've decided to hold off for OLS |
| 17:18.26 | jbevren | Happy birthday to me.. |
| 17:18.30 | jbevren | happy birthday to me!! |
| 17:18.31 | jbevren | hehe |
| 17:18.39 | jbevren | I'm officially older than I was yesterday |
| 17:28.32 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you don't think the lack of volunteers on the project might have something to do with lack of interest? |
| 17:28.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or vise versa |
| 17:31.11 | CosmicPenguin | I think the lack of true volunteers on the project is because you need to show real interest and initative to get a board |
| 17:31.56 | CosmicPenguin | So you lose out on the more casual developers - but experience has proven that for every 100 casual developer, only one or two ever end up contributing something back |
| 17:33.38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 17:33.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i can see that |
| 17:34.29 | CosmicPenguin | and handing out boards to causal developers would really be taking resources away |
| 17:34.29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i like the idea of hacking around with the olpc hardware, but i just couldn't make the time for a commitment |
| 17:34.47 | CosmicPenguin | precisely |
| 17:34.53 | CosmicPenguin | and thats not a bad thing, really - just the way it works |
| 17:34.57 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:35.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and there is the old issue with "i like hacking fun things" |
| 17:36.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i don't see much, for me, that would be left for hacking in the olpc |
| 17:36.09 | CosmicPenguin | well - the olpc isn't exactly the definition of fun |
| 17:36.15 | chouimat | prpplague: define "fun things" |
| 17:36.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: eexactly |
| 17:37.45 | prpplague | chouimat: varies from person to person |
| 17:38.02 | chouimat | hehe |
| 17:38.51 | CosmicPenguin | you could hack on LB, but you would be complaining so much about x86 architecture, we would just throw you out anyway.. :) |
| 17:39.07 | prpplague | LB? |
| 17:39.11 | CosmicPenguin | LinuxBIOS |
| 17:39.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 17:39.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, actually i've almost gotten involved with that numerous times |
| 17:40.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i just don't enough about all the legacy issues of x86 to be of any use |
| 17:40.46 | CosmicPenguin | Its about knowing about legacy thingsand figuring out how to get arond them |
| 17:40.50 | CosmicPenguin | Like say for example VGA |
| 17:41.08 | CosmicPenguin | We killed in on OLPC and haven't looked back even once |
| 17:41.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ? |
| 17:41.56 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: the OLPC doesn't use VGA at all |
| 17:42.08 | CosmicPenguin | nada - zip, zilch |
| 17:42.12 | CosmicPenguin | INT 10 > /dev/null |
| 17:42.15 | chouimat | hehe |
| 17:46.49 | Crofton | day 3 of the SCOX death watch is pretty dull |
| 17:46.56 | CosmicPenguin | day 3? |
| 17:47.02 | CosmicPenguin | hell - most of us are in day 533 |
| 17:47.29 | Crofton | true |
| 17:52.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 17:53.12 | CosmicPenguin | if anybody is bored, they can audit the xf86-video-amd code... :) |
| 17:54.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: bored != insane |
| 17:54.30 | CosmicPenguin | touche |
| 18:14.46 | chouimat|away | CosmicPenguin: I'm bored not suicidal |
| 18:15.11 | CosmicPenguin | hey - this code isn't that bad |
| 18:36.02 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, right up there with, "hey this moonshine isn't that bad" |
| 18:36.27 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-2719.cheetah.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 18:44.47 | CosmicPenguin | I wouldn't know - my people don't do moonshine |
| 18:44.52 | CosmicPenguin | we make beer |
| 18:45.01 | CosmicPenguin | and if beer is powerful enough to blilnd you - well it ain't beer |
| 18:52.32 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:58.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: looks like we are going with the libertas for our next gen handheld |
| 18:58.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the schematics for olpc available? |
| 19:09.41 | prpplague | ~quote scox |
| 19:31.59 | Crofton | for? |
| 19:32.40 | prpplague | Crofton: scox < $1.00 |
| 19:33.07 | Crofton | ah, not DHS to find out aout you importing foreign women ... |
| 19:43.17 | prpplague | Crofton: hehe |
| 19:43.21 | prpplague | Crofton: that too |
| 19:43.35 | prpplague | Crofton: i doubt i will hear anything till atleast thursday or friday |
| 19:46.33 | Crofton | Sounds like they are eing very thorough ... |
| 19:48.12 | prpplague | Crofton: yea, consulate applications usually are |
| 19:48.36 | prpplague | Crofton: if it wasn't for the smudged date, we;d have had the visa in the passport same day |
| 19:48.43 | Crofton | I doubt any terrorists could get into the US legally ... |
| 19:48.59 | prpplague | yea, right |
| 19:49.05 | Crofton | heh, I've had them use the smudged fingerprint excuse b4 |
| 19:49.30 | Crofton | the problem is that it is easy enough to get in illegally :) |
| 19:49.54 | prpplague | Crofton: yea, well non-immgrant visas are easy enough to get |
| 19:50.18 | prpplague | Crofton: when we went yesterday, i used my US passport to go the from of the line of the security check point |
| 19:50.48 | Crofton | it just sucks that people who try to do the right thing get the worst deal |
| 19:51.16 | prpplague | Crofton: one of the people we saw in line is a local who is know for soap box'n about killing white people |
| 19:51.27 | prpplague | Crofton: sure enough he got a b-1/b-2 visa |
| 19:51.33 | prpplague | Crofton: agreed |
| 19:51.35 | Crofton | which one is that? |
| 19:51.44 | prpplague | Crofton: 6 month tourist visa |
| 19:51.59 | prpplague | Crofton: similiar to what the 911 hijackers came in on |
| 19:52.04 | Crofton | yeah |
| 19:52.10 | Crofton | then you forget to leave ... |
| 19:52.13 | *** join/#edev tuxmaniac (n=aanjhan@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac) |
| 19:52.15 | prpplague | exactly |
| 19:52.38 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: yay on libertas, no on schematicws |
| 19:52.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: doh |
| 19:52.57 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: they will be, eventually |
| 19:53.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the libertas using the sdio interface on the olpc? |
| 19:53.05 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: no - USB |
| 19:53.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 19:53.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: running as 3.3v usb? |
| 19:53.39 | CosmicPenguin | I think so |
| 19:53.43 | CosmicPenguin | high-speed |
| 19:53.44 | prpplague | interesting |
| 19:53.53 | prpplague | yea, thats what i was gonna ask |
| 19:54.03 | prpplague | too bad the s3c2440 doesn't have a usb2.0 controller |
| 19:54.04 | CosmicPenguin | Its basically their dongle soldered on the board |
| 19:54.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i think we are going with sdio or spi interface |
| 19:54.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: since we don't have high-speed usb interface |
| 19:54.57 | CosmicPenguin | is spi fast enough? |
| 19:55.03 | CosmicPenguin | you need to download the firmware, you inow |
| 19:55.10 | CosmicPenguin | know, even |
| 19:55.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, we can get 25mhz out of the spi interface |
| 19:55.26 | CosmicPenguin | ahh - l33t |
| 19:55.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: thats enough to get decent support out of it |
| 19:55.44 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: would be better for the sdio interface |
| 19:56.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we are gonna fix up the board where we can use 0 ohm resistors to config it for either spi or sdio |
| 19:56.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you gotten your new olpc yet? |
| 19:56.55 | CosmicPenguin | no..... |
| 19:56.57 | CosmicPenguin | I'm pisssed |
| 19:57.09 | prpplague | doh |
| 19:57.37 | CosmicPenguin | My shipment got subverted by AMD executives |
| 19:57.52 | prpplague | s/sub/per |
| 19:58.11 | CosmicPenguin | but not to fear - another shipment is on its way |
| 19:58.13 | CosmicPenguin | I hope |
| 19:59.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: btw, did you have turkey or ham for T-day? i.e your poll |
| 19:59.24 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 19:59.27 | CosmicPenguin | turkey |
| 19:59.39 | prpplague | hehe |
| 19:59.42 | CosmicPenguin | That poll still isn't up there is it? |
| 20:00.05 | chouimat | http://www.lettersfrombadsanta.com/toy2.html <--- great xmas gift |
| 20:00.56 | CosmicPenguin | at least I finally got the spammers shut down |
| 20:02.58 | prpplague | chouimat: hehe |
| 20:03.24 | chouimat | prpplague: the other toys are good too ... |
| 20:04.09 | chouimat | prpplague: toy11 is good :) |
| 20:05.38 | Crofton | http://www.google.com/trends?q=embedded+linux&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all |
| 20:06.06 | prpplague | the nigeria santa is funny |
| 20:07.11 | prpplague | Crofton: yea, iran was up there pretty high on nuclear physics for awhile |
| 20:07.20 | Crofton | hahahaa |
| 20:08.40 | prpplague | Crofton: hehe, another funny one was that quebec was number one for a long time on searches about STD's |
| 20:08.54 | Crofton | hahaha |
| 20:09.20 | Crofton | big brother is amusing |
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| 21:23.12 | surfbuddy | why are there various elf formats ? |
| 21:23.47 | surfbuddy | like elf32-littlearm or elf32-bigmips |
| 21:32.33 | wmat | surfbuddy: endianness |
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| 22:19.02 | surfbuddy | wmat, and also the architecture. but the q is why there must be so many architectures.. why not just elf32 |
| 22:20.43 | CosmicPenguin | because the different architectures have different endianness.... |
| 22:21.38 | surfbuddy | CosmicPenguin, hmm.. |
| 22:22.36 | surfbuddy | CosmicPenguin, is the endianness the only facotr to have various OUTPUT_FORMAT() |
| 22:23.23 | surfbuddy | i know, elf has a parricular var in the section header which defines the endianness.. but what else? |
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| 22:23.34 | CosmicPenguin | generally, it is |
| 22:24.49 | surfbuddy | well.. in that case.. it would hve been simpler to use little and big..instead of enormous nos. of formats |
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