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| 17:50.54 | MonMotha | hum, is it bad when 0603 passives start to become "too big"? |
| 17:51.10 | MonMotha | I guess that's why they have 0402s, but those are so hard to solder down... |
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| 18:24.04 | Crofton | MonMotha, where does that though come from? Maybe you need 0201's :) |
| 18:25.11 | MonMotha | Crofton: I have trouble SEEING 0201s... |
| 18:25.25 | MonMotha | I can solder down 0402s, but it's tedious, time consuming, and subject to a bit of luck |
| 18:25.37 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:25.39 | MonMotha | 0603s are the smallest I can reliably solder without taking 10min per device |
| 18:25.49 | MonMotha | I haven't even TRIED an 0201 |
| 18:25.50 | Crofton | the guy lookig over my shoulder knows all about these things |
| 18:25.59 | MonMotha | I'm told that they have trouble doing those even on production reflow lines |
| 18:26.34 | Crofton | Chris reckons you need about 20% excess on a production for 0201's .... |
| 18:26.36 | MonMotha | apparently if the pick&place can even place that accurately, they tend to vibrate out of the solder paste on their way to the reflow oven |
| 18:26.48 | Crofton | lovely |
| 18:26.49 | MonMotha | ok, so I'm not entirely misinformed |
| 18:26.53 | Crofton | nope |
| 18:27.02 | Crofton | It sounds like you are very informed |
| 18:27.40 | MonMotha | I'm trying to figure out if there's a way I can get BGAs down. I've heard of people reflowing them with hotplates, but hand placement is still a chore |
| 18:28.02 | Crofton | Chris left, but I think he has professionalsdo them |
| 18:28.15 | MonMotha | I figured. There are assy houses that will do them fo ryou |
| 18:28.21 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:28.40 | MonMotha | I went with the QFP on this design, though I may need the extra 4x4mm reduction in the end |
| 18:28.49 | MonMotha | it's a USB dongle, and you know those are small |
| 18:28.57 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:29.06 | Crofton | I miss the od days :) |
| 18:29.20 | MonMotha | heh, giant boards with gridded DIPs? :) |
| 18:29.32 | MonMotha | power busses running horizontally along them |
| 18:29.51 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:30.02 | Crofton | 7400's |
| 18:30.04 | MonMotha | I reverse engineered a board built in that style. I'm still not sure why they did it that way - the board is from about 1998 |
| 18:30.16 | MonMotha | could have condensed that whole board down into a single microcontroller |
| 18:30.21 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:30.46 | MonMotha | the 8051 was how old at that point? |
| 18:30.47 | Crofton | ancient ... |
| 18:30.47 | MonMotha | heck, I think AVR was out |
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| 18:30.55 | MonMotha | let me see if i can dig up ap icture |
| 18:31.49 | MonMotha | http://gigapet.monmotha.net/~monmotha/IMG_3649.JPG (warning: HUGE) |
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| 18:32.22 | MonMotha | I could do that whole board with a single chip and maybe a couple IO expanders |
| 18:32.31 | MonMotha | oh, and of course the RS-485 drivers/power |
| 18:32.42 | Crofton | from a vid game? |
| 18:32.47 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 18:32.49 | MonMotha | beatmaniaIIDX |
| 18:33.03 | MonMotha | the giant "KONAMI" give it away? :) |
| 18:33.25 | Crofton | yeah |
| 18:33.33 | Crofton | weird mix of smt and through hole |
| 18:33.54 | MonMotha | yeah, I'm not really sure what was up with that board |
| 18:33.59 | MonMotha | it almost looks like an intern project |
| 18:34.09 | MonMotha | either that or like it was designed by somebody who was ready to retire in a few weeks |
| 18:34.27 | Crofton | one or the other |
| 18:34.36 | MonMotha | those M66009s are only available in surface mount, so that's probably what drove that |
| 18:34.37 | Crofton | oe an intern supervised by a guy about to retire |
| 18:34.42 | Crofton | ah |
| 18:34.44 | MonMotha | as to why they didn't just use SM for everything, who knows |
| 18:34.49 | Crofton | I miss hw design |
| 18:35.25 | MonMotha | heh, I love hw design. I'd MUCH rather do it than firmware or drivers (which are the other two things I've been known to do) |
| 18:35.47 | Crofton | I do software radi othese days |
| 18:36.00 | Crofton | good place for a guy who can program and does not fear hw |
| 18:37.43 | davidc__ | MonMotha: BGA's are hard... even with a pick'n place, stencils and a real reflow oven :/ |
| 18:40.46 | MonMotha | http://gigapet.monmotha.net/~monmotha/IMG_2642.JPG is what came as a result of reversing that board above |
| 18:41.10 | MonMotha | davidc__: I can imagine, especially with the tiny, tiny pitch some of them have these days |
| 18:41.22 | MonMotha | the layout is a pain too..so many layers needed to bring them out, and all the micro-vias |
| 18:42.32 | davidc__ | yeah, I was talking to the NXP FAE's regarding their stupid choice on the 3000 series arm chips |
| 18:42.46 | MonMotha | which stupid choice was that? |
| 18:42.47 | davidc__ | 0.5mm spacing - you need like 4/4 to route that out! |
| 18:42.51 | MonMotha | oh, yeah |
| 18:43.05 | davidc__ | eh, the LPC3000 series is currently only available in a bga with 0.5mm ball spacing |
| 18:43.10 | davidc__ | but its in 3 rows around the edge! |
| 18:43.14 | MonMotha | yeah, that's dumb |
| 18:43.28 | MonMotha | bigger grid, larger pitch |
| 18:43.29 | davidc__ | I'd much rather have an infilled bga with 1mm spacing, at least that way I can drop vias at 5/5/10 |
| 18:43.31 | davidc__ | or 6/6/10 |
| 18:43.39 | MonMotha | I try to get it up to 6/6/ |
| 18:43.49 | MonMotha | that seems to be a sweet spot for PCB fabrication |
| 18:44.03 | davidc__ | yeah, 6/6/ is a nice spot, but sometimes 5/5 is the only way to route it |
| 18:44.10 | MonMotha | agreed |
| 18:44.23 | MonMotha | what's the 10 in your numbers up there? |
| 18:44.25 | MonMotha | trace/space/?? |
| 18:44.31 | davidc__ | min drill |
| 18:44.33 | MonMotha | ah, ok |
| 18:44.36 | MonMotha | that's what I was figuring |
| 18:44.50 | davidc__ | I must say, I do like 5 mil microvias, but they drive the cost way up |
| 18:44.56 | davidc__ | microvias -in-pads are slick |
| 18:45.00 | davidc__ | especially for bgas |
| 18:45.23 | MonMotha | I've not done anything that required or could even justify that kind of stuff |
| 18:45.51 | MonMotha | most of my designs actually get crammed onto 2 layers |
| 18:45.57 | MonMotha | just because it's so much cheaper |
| 18:46.03 | MonMotha | hence my preferences for QFPs |
| 18:46.14 | davidc__ | yeah. same... but one of my designs for a previous job was up to 6 |
| 18:46.19 | davidc__ | and another for that same one was 4 |
| 18:46.49 | davidc__ | I almost got the 6 one down to 4 by the time I left, but just couldn't get the mem/pci busses routed at 4 with the timing margins I wanted |
| 18:46.55 | MonMotha | this USB dongle board is going to be at least 4, possibly 6 |
| 18:47.15 | MonMotha | I need those power/ground planes |
| 18:47.25 | MonMotha | though the power plane may get turned into a routing layer with power traces |
| 18:47.47 | MonMotha | fortunately, nothing on this board is particularly timing critical |
| 18:48.26 | davidc__ | yeah.. I might be doing an 8 layer board soon - want to do some really tightly packed BGAs |
| 18:49.17 | MonMotha | eeks...that's a lot of layers |
| 18:49.22 | MonMotha | I have trouble keeping track of 6, let alone more |
| 18:49.32 | MonMotha | how much do you use autorouters, btw? |
| 18:49.52 | davidc__ | not at all :P |
| 18:49.55 | MonMotha | I'm kinda curious as to people's preferences. I tend to manually route just about everything, but then OrCAD's autorouter sucks (I'm told I need to mess with Specctra) |
| 18:49.57 | davidc__ | I route all by hand |
| 18:50.08 | MonMotha | that seems rather common...moreso than I'd have thought |
| 18:50.29 | davidc__ | I just wish that eagle had a diff pair autorouting tool, make life much easier |
| 18:50.36 | davidc__ | er, not autorouting |
| 18:50.37 | davidc__ | routing |
| 18:50.40 | MonMotha | yes...that would be nice |
| 18:50.49 | MonMotha | controlled impedance, length matching, etc. |
| 18:51.04 | davidc__ | so I could route the two together, rather than switching grid planes at every corner to maintain correct spacing |
| 18:51.07 | MonMotha | I think PCAD will do that, but PCAD isn't cheap |
| 18:51.23 | davidc__ | I don't care if it does the calcs, I just want it to keep two traces x apart as I draw it across the board :P |
| 18:51.43 | MonMotha | yeah, even that would be nice, but once you have that, it's fairly trivial to add the calculation functionality |
| 18:52.04 | MonMotha | it could also then warn you if you are e.g. passing over a discontinuity in a split-plane |
| 18:52.26 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, but thats my job because I'm hand-routing it ;) |
| 18:52.55 | MonMotha | yeah, but it would still be nice if the tool could do that for you |
| 18:53.25 | MonMotha | I'm used to using a slightly more powerful tool than Eagle (OrCAD's offline DRC is actually rather decent, even if the online one sucks) |
| 18:53.28 | davidc__ | someday I'm gonna play around with pcb and see if I can whack a bunch of those features into it |
| 18:54.14 | davidc__ | I want to move to a full gEDA workflow, just haven't mastered the learning-brick-wall yet |
| 18:54.24 | MonMotha | yeah, that would be very nice |
| 18:54.32 | MonMotha | gschem is decent, but I never managed to learn PCB |
| 18:54.47 | MonMotha | the learning-brick-wall is not an inaccurate description, it would seem |
| 18:54.52 | davidc__ | eh, apparently PCB has gotten much better in recent years |
| 18:55.11 | MonMotha | oh, the other thing I'm addicted to in OrCAD is the layout/capture interaction |
| 18:55.16 | MonMotha | it's VERY handy |
| 18:55.17 | davidc__ | I really like the tight integration between eagle schem/pcb though, which is why I've never .. hehe :P |
| 18:55.18 | davidc__ | same thing |
| 18:55.27 | MonMotha | yup |
| 18:55.35 | davidc__ | I never just do schem capture, its always iterative |
| 18:55.38 | MonMotha | I didn't know Eagle did that now |
| 18:55.55 | davidc__ | yea, its fairly tightly coupled |
| 18:55.56 | MonMotha | oh yeah, that board I posted up there that I made ("King Roland") got up to the 74th layout/capture iteration |
| 18:56.05 | MonMotha | hum, last time I used Eagle it didn't do that |
| 18:56.12 | MonMotha | that was over 4 years ago, though |
| 18:56.19 | davidc__ | hrm? when you add a component, it adds it to the board in real time |
| 18:56.25 | davidc__ | its almost as if its two views of the same data |
| 18:56.29 | MonMotha | OrCAD doesn't do it quite that way |
| 18:56.29 | davidc__ | theres no real iterations :P |
| 18:56.50 | MonMotha | in OrCAD you do a netlist export and layout picks it up and prompts you for a reconciliation method |
| 18:57.05 | MonMotha | and for back annotation you create a back annotation file and capture picks it up and prompts you for action |
| 18:57.15 | davidc__ | yeah, theres something like that in gEDA suite as well |
| 18:57.19 | davidc__ | but still more work than eagle ;) |
| 18:57.33 | MonMotha | well, OrCAD does have some real-time interaction |
| 18:57.50 | MonMotha | highlighting/"using" a component or net in one app highlights it in the other |
| 18:58.01 | davidc__ | somedays I'm tempted just to say "fuckit, I'm writing my own" but then I realize my insanity |
| 18:58.03 | MonMotha | just actual netlist changes you have to say when you want them to be applied across |
| 18:58.18 | MonMotha | yeah, there's so many little things that we all want |
| 18:58.34 | MonMotha | does PCB have any DFM checks yet? |
| 18:59.14 | davidc__ | DFM? whats the diff between that an DRC? |
| 19:00.49 | MonMotha | two names for effectively the same thing |
| 19:00.57 | MonMotha | DRCs sometimes have additional rules not related to manufacturing |
| 19:01.07 | MonMotha | though some DFMs have those rules and are still called DFMs |
| 19:01.18 | davidc__ | ah, got it. I really don't know. Where I work, we have our own inhouse tool that I can use ;) |
| 19:01.25 | MonMotha | DRC = "Design Rule Check", DFM = "Design For Manufacturing" |
| 19:01.26 | davidc__ | [seeing as I wrote it] |
| 19:01.47 | MonMotha | well, OrCAD has one integrated into layout. Just hit the button and it flags all the problems with little markers |
| 19:02.04 | davidc__ | yup - eagle has that too.. Don't really know bout PCB though |
| 19:02.09 | MonMotha | it has an online one too that'll prevent you from doing something that would cause an error in the first place, but I've found that it just gets in the way |
| 19:06.11 | MonMotha | does eagle let you swap pins (on parts with multiple pins having equiv. functionality) from layout view? |
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| 19:16.16 | CP|too | That sounds less then 'rock' |
| 19:18.01 | MonMotha | CP|too: ? |
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