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| 13:40.47 | GPSFan | prpplague: hey, what's cooking..? |
| 13:43.00 | prpplague | GPSFan: probably my ass in about an hour, engineering meeting at 9:30 |
| 13:43.53 | prpplague | GPSFan: i have 3 projects that are like damm buggers, i can seem to get rid of them |
| 13:45.12 | GPSFan | prpplague: hmm, sounds like you need an intern to blame ^H^H^H^H help... ;>) |
| 13:49.26 | prpplague | hehe |
| 13:52.48 | GPSFan | prpplague: other than the problems with buildroot, hammer stuff is woeking well. one nit, the schematic says the power led is green (D2), mine is red... |
| 13:53.09 | prpplague | GPSFan: indeed, that was a mistake on parts ordering |
| 13:53.23 | GPSFan | really bright though. |
| 13:53.47 | prpplague | GPSFan: interesting, i'll double check on that |
| 13:54.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: how do you feel the receiption of the Hammer will be once we go live with it? |
| 13:54.29 | GPSFan | I'm gonna try beating on buildroot, this weekend. still can't figure out why the root is not remounted rw. |
| 13:55.10 | prpplague | GPSFan: ahh, i'll have a look myself later today |
| 13:55.18 | prpplague | GPSFan: should have a little time this afternoon |
| 13:55.47 | prpplague | GPSFan: you think the hobby people will be interested in the hammer? |
| 13:56.42 | GPSFan | prpplague: I'd like to see an actual project done with it. once I get the buildroot issues done, I'll try to get my lcd running. btw, for the next hammer carrier, it might be nice to have an lcd bias powersupply. just a few milliamps at an adjustable negativevoltage. |
| 13:57.31 | prpplague | GPSFan: hmm, ok we had planned a seperate lcd carrier board |
| 13:57.41 | prpplague | GPSFan: but i'll ask about it |
| 13:58.15 | GPSFan | prpplague: the hammer may be able to do many of the jobs I thought the zipit would be good for, at ~1/2 watt (less ethernet) it's a fairly powerful "low power" device. |
| 13:58.47 | GPSFan | prpplague: or maybe for the next hammer carrier, a good how to for a bias supply would suffice. |
| 13:59.59 | GPSFan | zipit (less radio) ~1/2 watt, hammer ~1/2 watt for ~2x the speed, 2x Ram, and lots fore flash. |
| 14:00.13 | GPSFan | s/fore/more |
| 14:01.01 | prpplague | GPSFan: indeed |
| 14:01.01 | GPSFan | bbl, stuff to do... |
| 14:01.08 | prpplague | GPSFan: later |
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| 15:42.24 | chouimat|ibook | morning |
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| 15:56.11 | prpplague | lovely |
| 15:56.15 | prpplague | fun fun fun |
| 15:57.47 | prpplague | new company policy for patches, no company supported time will be used for submitting patches :( |
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| 16:04.39 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: interesting |
| 16:05.06 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
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| 16:05.31 | prpplague | chouimat|ibook: yea, 147 patches submitted in the last 6 months by aml personell |
| 16:11.47 | CosmicPenguin | time to find a new company |
| 16:12.07 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: sound like a polite way of saying "unpaid overtime" ;) |
| 16:12.38 | prpplague | naw, just that out of 147 patches only 3 were accepted, and less than half were even looked at |
| 16:13.02 | prpplague | hard to justify the time spent with numbers like that |
| 16:13.24 | CosmicPenguin | Those are flaws in your subsystem - I promise you that any patches submitted for Geode don't operate like that |
| 16:13.32 | CosmicPenguin | yet another reason to go x86 - we're friendlier |
| 16:13.47 | chouimat|ibook | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 16:14.16 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: not just arm subsystem, it was also for apps as well as other subsystems such as MTD |
| 16:16.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: aml didn't do patch submissions before i started work here, and i've tried to make it worth while to do so, but business wise with the results we've had, it just doesn't make sense to do it |
| 16:23.40 | MothaWork | prpplague: the reason the places I've worked even bother with attempting patch submissions (which is rare) is just to get everything back into upstream, so we don't have to maintain our own branches |
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| 16:30.06 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea, that was my argument as well |
| 16:30.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: the PHB's argument is mainly about the lack of acceptance, the time involved, and the fact for the kernel its a two week unscheduled window |
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| 16:57.41 | CosmicPenguin | you guys probably don't maintain an up-to-date tree? |
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| 18:12.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you mean we weren't supply patches against current git kernel trees? |
| 18:12.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: if that is what you meant, we were submitting patches against the latest git trees |
| 18:12.40 | CosmicPenguin | no - I mean you don't develop against edge trees, right? |
| 18:13.11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, all of our current dev is against edge trees |
| 18:13.25 | CosmicPenguin | so why is the two week window a problem? |
| 18:13.30 | CosmicPenguin | you should be there anyway |
| 18:13.54 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: because for a business, you can't just drop everything at a momments notice to do patch submissions |
| 18:14.30 | CosmicPenguin | If you are up to date with the tree, then it should be like a five minute thing |
| 18:14.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: "hi boss, uh they just announced the two week window for patches, can i stop the other 4 or 5 projects i'm working on to do patches?" |
| 18:14.39 | CosmicPenguin | three if you use stgit |
| 18:15.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: to generate the patches, yea, no problem with that |
| 18:15.17 | CosmicPenguin | Many companies do have the problem that they don't develop against a moving target, so its hard to update to current, unit test and send |
| 18:15.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: getting them to the right mailing list, debating the patch, making changes, res-submitting, following up |
| 18:15.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: that's what takes time |
| 18:16.13 | CosmicPenguin | technically that all should happen outside of the merge window |
| 18:16.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, well, it doesn't seem to work that way |
| 18:17.09 | prpplague | or atleast with my experience |
| 18:17.18 | CosmicPenguin | The merge window is a very bad time to be submitting new patches, in my experience |
| 18:18.18 | prpplague | even so, the mere fact that we can have different perceptions of how to submit patches is a problem |
| 18:18.49 | prpplague | different mailing lists, different web sites, different formats, different standards submission |
| 18:19.10 | prpplague | yea if you care about the code you are gonna follow through with the patch |
| 18:19.35 | prpplague | but if you are a business, you are going to ask "is this really worth the time, money, and headache?" |
| 18:20.37 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: and all this will make the GPL zealots that businesses don't submit their changes to the main trees |
| 18:20.46 | chouimat|ibook | add complaint somewhere |
| 18:21.01 | CosmicPenguin | I have never felt that patch submission was such a bit consumer of my time |
| 18:21.14 | CosmicPenguin | Mabye I deal with more corporate BS then you guys do |
| 18:21.55 | prpplague | chouimat|ibook: i'm sorry i did not understand your statement |
| 18:23.07 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: business complaint that the patch submition process is complicated or whatever. and GPL zealots complaint that business don't submit their changes ... if nobody sit down together to discuss this it will never change |
| 18:23.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: our estimates were that we spent 30 minutes per patch on generation, documentation, submission, corrrections and followup |
| 18:23.57 | prpplague | chouimat|ibook: ahh indeed |
| 18:24.52 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: sorry I'm not feeling well today ... had a party last night and I had way too much to drink ;) |
| 18:24.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the PHB argument is this: IF the patches were accepted and contribute to long term maintenance for the product 30 minutes is viable |
| 18:25.11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: problem is that out 147 patches, only 3 were accepted |
| 18:25.20 | CosmicPenguin | Thats standard operating procedure |
| 18:25.23 | CosmicPenguin | you try, try again |
| 18:25.29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: 144 * 30 minutes |
| 18:25.39 | chouimat|ibook | 72 hours |
| 18:25.40 | CosmicPenguin | If anything corporate code is considered substandard in the OSS world |
| 18:25.42 | CosmicPenguin | for good reason |
| 18:25.58 | CosmicPenguin | so its a harder row to hoe then just your average joe |
| 18:26.05 | CosmicPenguin | but if the code is viable, it will be accepted |
| 18:26.15 | CosmicPenguin | you need to get it to the right eyes |
| 18:26.27 | CosmicPenguin | But for now - you're going to spend way more then 72 hours keeping your patchset up to date with the kernel |
| 18:26.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but see you've hit on two points |
| 18:27.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: first, if the code is going to be considered substandard, then why both? |
| 18:27.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: second, the big difference is that after a product goes live, we virtually never change the code unless their is a major need to do so |
| 18:28.08 | CosmicPenguin | so then why stay up to date with the kernel at all? |
| 18:28.38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: because during development we can, as well as the fact that we often need new features during development |
| 18:28.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: once everything works, we generally don't move on |
| 18:28.59 | CosmicPenguin | Okay - so then being in the kernel is not useful to you |
| 18:29.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: very little help, sometimes if a platform is very similiar, i.e. we have 4 or 5 devices based on the same cpu core, then it does help, but not much |
| 18:30.14 | CosmicPenguin | So I wouldn't worry about it - the only reason to be in the kernel is to have the code live on beyond the effort that you have put into it |
| 18:30.27 | CosmicPenguin | if you don't care - and most importantly, if your clients don't care, then you're done |
| 18:30.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: our main submissions are for fixing issues we found so that on the next dev cycle we don't have to deal with the same issue |
| 18:31.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: out of the 147 patches, 140 were less than 10 line fixes |
| 18:31.40 | CosmicPenguin | I push to the kernel - because its a certainty that my customers will want to use whatever kernel happens to be current that day, and I don |
| 18:31.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed |
| 18:32.01 | CosmicPenguin | I push to the kernel - because its a certainty that my customers will want to use whatever kernel happens to be current that day, and the sooner I get my patches into the kernel, the less I have to support |
| 18:32.29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but the thing is, imho, your patches probably get looked at much quicker than ours |
| 18:32.31 | CosmicPenguin | its worth the effort - better to bleed now then later |
| 18:32.39 | CosmicPenguin | why - I'm nobody special |
| 18:32.54 | CosmicPenguin | you processor is more widly used then mine is |
| 18:32.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i think its more or less the @amd.com that helps |
| 18:33.13 | CosmicPenguin | the oSS community hates AMD |
| 18:33.47 | CosmicPenguin | Linux developers love linux - thats all they care about |
| 18:33.55 | CosmicPenguin | if what you offer improves their product, then they'll take it |
| 18:34.13 | CosmicPenguin | otherwise they won't - but they have no bias or loyalties |
| 18:34.33 | CosmicPenguin | If Microsoft came tommorrow and sent out GPLed patches to improve SMB support in the kernel - I bet Linus would take it in a heartbeat |
| 18:34.36 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i disagree with that, linux developers are human, and humans aren't free of bias |
| 18:36.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: before it used to be "hey, xxxx doesn't work because yyyy is broken" and people would respond "ok your patch to fix yyyy is welcome :)" |
| 18:37.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: now it feels like "here's my patch to fix yyyy" and the respond "yea yyyy is broken, but i don't like your fix" |
| 18:38.07 | CosmicPenguin | which is fine - reasonable people can disagree |
| 18:38.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but see my point is that they agree that its broken, and someone has taken the time to fix it, and the person doesn't accept it and they don't offer their own fix |
| 18:40.39 | chouimat|ibook | better have a fix that it isn't perfectly beautiful than no fix at all (imho) |
| 18:41.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/pipermail/linux-arm-kernel/2007-September/041967.html |
| 18:41.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: just like that patch, totally ignored |
| 18:41.31 | prpplague | chouimat|ibook: my point exactly |
| 18:43.25 | chouimat|ibook | prpplague: I modified the kdevelop //todo parser so I can had special //todo comments: //improve later |
| 18:43.31 | chouimat|ibook | s/had/add |
| 19:14.05 | T0mW | ~quote scox |
| 19:14.25 | prpplague | T0mW: greetings |
| 19:14.31 | prpplague | jbevren / Exiles : ping |
| 19:14.32 | T0mW | :-) |
| 19:15.03 | Crofton | ~change 1 usd to cad |
| 19:15.57 | chouimat|ibook | http://finance.yahoo.com/currency |
| 19:16.20 | T0mW | Crofton: must be too little cad dollars to us dollars (fractionally too small?) |
| 19:16.39 | Crofton | someone was making divide by zero jokes yesterday |
| 19:16.57 | *** join/#edev dbtid (i=ortkhmhl@cpe-71-72-252-171.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 19:17.10 | dbtid | prpplague: which atheros module are you using? |
| 19:17.19 | dbtid | is it from atheros, or are you buying chips, or what? |
| 19:17.20 | prpplague | dbtid: the eval module from cardaccess |
| 19:17.29 | dbtid | is there a model number? |
| 19:17.50 | prpplague | http://www.cardaccess-inc.com/ |
| 19:17.55 | dbtid | thanks |
| 19:17.58 | prpplague | np |
| 19:18.07 | dbtid | is there a specific module you're using? |
| 19:18.54 | dbtid | and, do you like the atheros better than the marvell? |
| 19:19.26 | prpplague | http://www.cardaccess-inc.com/products/index.php?a=wlan_sdio |
| 19:19.37 | prpplague | dbtid: both suck, what can i say |
| 19:20.21 | prpplague | if you have to choose between dog crap and cat crap, its not really a choice at all is it? |
| 19:20.54 | dbtid | lol |
| 19:20.59 | dbtid | no |
| 19:21.16 | dbtid | have you used any that you liked? |
| 19:21.45 | dbtid | so far, you're about the only one whose answered questions |
| 19:21.46 | prpplague | those are the only two real choices for linux right now |
| 19:21.52 | dbtid | i thought as much |
| 19:22.01 | dbtid | broadcom isn't doing anything to help linux |
| 19:22.06 | prpplague | all others are closed source and require very large purchases |
| 19:22.11 | dbtid | i wonder if the olpc guys are having better luck |
| 19:22.33 | prpplague | dbtid: most of the people in #libertas are olpc people |
| 19:22.37 | dbtid | i didn't realize |
| 19:22.47 | prpplague | dbtid: they have had their share of problems with marvell |
| 19:22.55 | dbtid | hmm |
| 19:23.20 | prpplague | dbtid: the upper levels of the libertas API are the same across all of the libertas devices |
| 19:23.42 | prpplague | dbtid: i.e. 88w8305,88w835, 88w8388, 88w8686 |
| 19:24.28 | dbtid | that's very good to know |
| 19:24.36 | dbtid | the 8686 is one we're looking at |
| 19:30.19 | prpplague | dbtid: i'm not aware of anyone that is selling a 88w8686 embedded module at this time |
| 19:30.47 | prpplague | dbtid: all the sources i've found only provide in a bga package |
| 19:30.59 | dbtid | which sources? |
| 19:32.05 | prpplague | dbtid: wi2wi.com and embeddedworks.com |
| 19:33.07 | dbtid | yes, wi2wi has a bga module with an 8686 in it |
| 19:33.10 | dbtid | that's one we're considering |
| 19:34.37 | prpplague | dbtid: you going to do bga packaging for your device? |
| 19:34.52 | dbtid | not building a device, as such |
| 19:34.55 | dbtid | building a board |
| 19:35.20 | dbtid | our system will be subject to extreme vibration |
| 19:35.29 | dbtid | not sure a pci card interface is a great idea |
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| 19:54.14 | cbrake | dbtid: probably not anything new here, but fwiw: http://bec-systems.com/web/content/view/75/9/ |
| 19:54.49 | cbrake | dbtid: you in Columbus OH? |
| 19:54.56 | dbtid | cbrake: at the moment i am :) |
| 19:55.28 | cbrake | dbtid: I'm in Akron -- 2 hours north. |
| 19:55.31 | dbtid | in a bit i'm going home, and i won't be |
| 19:55.52 | dbtid | i went to akron u, lived in stow and c.f., and have worked in akron, cleveland, and bath |
| 19:55.56 | dbtid | used to work at loral |
| 19:56.19 | cbrake | dbtid: neat, I know a few people who worked there |
| 19:56.24 | dbtid | wow so close! |
| 19:56.28 | dbtid | when did you graduate? |
| 19:56.36 | dbtid | i graduated in '90 |
| 19:56.36 | cbrake | dbtid: '95 |
| 19:56.48 | cbrake | dbtid: you ever run into Lee Leppo? |
| 19:56.56 | dbtid | don't know that name |
| 19:57.05 | dbtid | there's a guy around here on freenode who does linux who's in wadsworth |
| 19:57.30 | cbrake | dbtid: cool, do you have a IRC name? |
| 19:58.16 | dbtid | yeah, this one :) |
| 19:58.22 | dbtid | "doing better than i deserve" |
| 19:58.28 | CosmicPenguin | heh - I was going to say something like that too |
| 19:58.34 | dbtid | CosmicPenguin: which part? |
| 19:58.45 | CosmicPenguin | that you have an IRC name |
| 19:59.00 | dbtid | oh, you mean as opposed to "me" |
| 19:59.28 | dbtid | you've lost me. sorry. |
| 19:59.35 | cbrake | for stupid questions. |
| 19:59.35 | dbtid | i'm not what you could call an IRC expert user. |
| 19:59.45 | dbtid | at any rate... |
| 19:59.54 | cbrake | dbtid: I was wondering about the IRC nhame of the Wadsworth person ... |
| 20:00.01 | dbtid | oh, heh yeah |
| 20:00.02 | dbtid | mdp |
| 20:00.06 | cbrake | dbtid: where do you live now? |
| 20:00.06 | dbtid | look on #mklinux |
| 20:00.10 | cbrake | dbtid: thanks! |
| 20:00.12 | dbtid | i'm in the columbus area, still |
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| 20:03.02 | dbtid | we could get an I71 corridor users group going :) |
| 20:14.46 | cbrake | dbtid: :-) There is a pretty regular group in Akron these days. |
| 20:16.31 | dbtid | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:16.44 | dbtid | i did 860/8260 ppc for a telco supplier in dublin ohio |
| 20:16.57 | dbtid | most recently, an at91rm9200 linux design with u-boot |
| 20:17.01 | dbtid | standard stuff |
| 20:17.50 | cbrake | dbtid: are you do consulting, or work full time somewhere? |
| 20:19.42 | dbtid | cbrake: we can talk about that later perhaps ;) |
| 20:19.53 | cbrake | dbtid: sounds good :-) take care ... |
| 20:19.57 | dbtid | you too |
| 20:20.08 | dbtid | i'm off in a few minutes, and i have to check on some EE's progress ;) |
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| 20:33.59 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 21:35.44 | *** join/#edev linac (n=lin@222.47.30.2) |
| 21:52.04 | prpplague | ~quote scox |
| 21:56.39 | *** join/#edev redb1ue (i=star@ppp208.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 22:08.45 | CosmicPenguin | Hmmm - a 3.5 million dollar market cap for a company with 7.19 mil in equity |
| 22:08.51 | CosmicPenguin | thats a deal |
| 22:12.47 | ds2 | anyone used those sub $1K logic analyzers? |
| 22:13.37 | jbevren | shrug. I have an old HP1630D |
| 22:14.13 | ds2 | I've seen those.. do they work with 3.3V signals? |
| 22:44.48 | dbtid | ds2: i've only used a digital oscope in that arena |
| 22:44.58 | dbtid | link systems iirc |
| 22:45.06 | dbtid | i think they've got la's like that too |
| 22:45.11 | dbtid | the oscope is OK |
| 22:45.41 | MonMotha | just build your own :) |
| 23:04.43 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-3351.cheetah.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:34.52 | MonMotha | speaking of, I evidently need to build myself a EPROM programmer |
| 23:57.54 | ds2 | build? the parallel port stuff? |