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| 05:29.37 | pAth0s | anyone awake? |
| 05:29.49 | MonMotha | yes, but barely |
| 05:29.57 | pAth0s | do you do any cross compiling? |
| 05:30.04 | MonMotha | occasionally |
| 05:30.07 | MonMotha | I mostly do hardware stuff |
| 05:30.50 | pAth0s | I've got a toolchain in /usr/local/mybook-toolchain on a debian box, how do I get configure scripts and make to use the toolchain? |
| 05:31.37 | MonMotha | add the binaries to your PATH and pass --target to GNU configure |
| 05:31.39 | pAth0s | in that dir, I have arm-linux-uclibc, bin, include, info, lib, libexec, man, and usr dirs |
| 05:31.46 | MonMotha | most of the time it will "do the right thing" |
| 05:31.51 | MonMotha | if not, you get to hack on the configure scripts |
| 05:32.31 | pAth0s | so --target=arm-linux-uclibc ? |
| 05:33.25 | MonMotha | yup |
| 05:34.20 | pAth0s | cool.. I'll try that |
| 05:34.29 | pAth0s | thanks |
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| 06:22.49 | ohsix | same people sure make the rounds in similar channels :) |
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| 12:17.21 | chouimat | morning |
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| 13:26.54 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
| 13:26.58 | prpplague | merry freakin wed |
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| 13:29.00 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 13:29.19 | prpplague | GPSFan: morning |
| 13:29.22 | prpplague | GPSFan: whats cookin? |
| 13:29.30 | prpplague | GPSFan: tincantools goes live at the end of the month |
| 13:30.46 | GPSFan | prpplague: yea... not too much going on here. best of luck with the release of the Hammer... |
| 13:31.05 | prpplague | GPSFan: so how do you feel about it overall? |
| 13:31.27 | prpplague | GPSFan: think it will take off or drop like a led ballon? |
| 13:32.05 | GPSFan | nice package, nice price. adequate performance, especially compared to a gumstick. |
| 13:32.54 | prpplague | GPSFan: i think the only regret is we didn't use the suspend/resume support, but since it was an existing design there wasn't much we could do from the start |
| 13:32.57 | GPSFan | I keep forgetting it's an arm9 not arm7, I haven't really done any performance comparisons, what is the major difference? |
| 13:33.49 | prpplague | GPSFan: difference between arm7 and arm9? there are some additional assembly commands and the pipe structure is somewhat different |
| 13:34.15 | prpplague | GPSFan: basically it boils down to the fact that arm9 can run at faster speeds with more peripherals |
| 13:35.00 | prpplague | GPSFan: there is a fairly good comparision on wikipedia |
| 13:35.23 | GPSFan | so an arm7 tops out at ~90MHz, and an arm9 can go up to to ~200 ? |
| 13:35.24 | prpplague | GPSFan: but the best is in the ARM ARM or the ARM systm developers guide (SDG |
| 13:36.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea arm7 generally tops out about ~90mhz, but the arm9 series can go all the way up to 600mhz |
| 13:36.23 | prpplague | GPSFan: with most arm9's in the 200mhz range |
| 13:37.02 | prpplague | GPSFan: i.e. the arm920t is generally at 200, the arm926's generaly can do 300/400 with some doing 500/600 |
| 13:37.27 | GPSFan | ok, that's a good comparison in a nutshell. Thanks... |
| 13:37.47 | prpplague | GPSFan: np, maybe i should generate a page on the elinux wiki |
| 13:38.04 | GPSFan | ;>) |
| 13:39.07 | GPSFan | prpplague: you seen the fires in SanDiego? They were right where I used to live... old house may have burned... really bad few days for those folks... |
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| 13:42.43 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea, been seeing it on the news, but i generally don't know anyone from california or who has relatives there |
| 13:45.14 | GPSFan | prpplague: they are still saying 0% contained, and nearly 500k people displaced, and thousands of homes burned. Glad I'n not there anymore. |
| 13:45.28 | prpplague | GPSFan: indeed |
| 13:46.26 | prpplague | GPSFan: i tend to agree with some of the firefighters who complain that it is due to the environmental wackos that don't like controlled burns to eradicate uncontrolled underbrush |
| 13:47.34 | GPSFan | prpplague: absolutly, the wild fires here in Colorado a few years ago as well as Yellowstone are due to the same cause. |
| 13:48.00 | GPSFan | as well as the lack of grazing on that land. |
| 13:49.05 | prpplague | GPSFan: like i said earlier, i have little direct contact with people in california, but from what i gather from news reports, they have a very short memory about such things, i suspect they will complain a bunch and this will happen again in another 8 to 10 years |
| 13:50.29 | GPSFan | or sooner. |
| 13:50.49 | prpplague | yep |
| 13:51.24 | chouimat | prpplague: just find the wackos who started it and make them pay for the damages ... should teach future wackos ;) |
| 13:52.18 | prpplague | chouimat: doesn't nessarily have to be someone that started it, lighting strikes and things like optical heat often start the wildfires |
| 13:52.35 | chouimat | prpplague: I know |
| 13:57.28 | GPSFan | prpplague: cause for the Witch fire is being described as downed power lines, Very high winds at the time. Santa Anna conditions can be a bitch. |
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| 14:50.54 | prpplague | http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/11/oppenheim.irving/ |
| 14:51.20 | prpplague | only problem i have with the whole program is that they don't accept a greencard as valid ID |
| 14:51.29 | prpplague | you have to have a state issued DL or ID card |
| 14:52.21 | prpplague | alot of people think a greencard(I-551) is a valid ID, but only a couple of states accept it as ID |
| 14:54.20 | chouimat | prpplague: to have a greencard mean that you're legally in the us? |
| 14:55.25 | Crofton|home | You are supposed to carry the green card at all times |
| 14:55.39 | Crofton|home | but most people keep it in a safe place to avoid loding the fool thing |
| 14:55.52 | prpplague | chouimat: greencard is really slang for a I-551 card which basically states you are a LPR(Legal Perminent Resident) |
| 14:56.09 | prpplague | Crofton: indeed |
| 14:56.24 | prpplague | Crofton: but see like in the state of texas, a I-551 is not legal ID |
| 14:56.48 | Crofton|home | interesting |
| 14:56.54 | chouimat | prpplague: stupidity :) |
| 14:57.10 | prpplague | Crofton: if your I-551 is your only ID, you can not purchase or use alcohol or cigarrettes |
| 14:57.14 | Crofton|home | a friend of mone had to fedex his passport(Japanese) and greeen card to an employer so he could contract |
| 14:57.26 | Crofton|home | they sent it back via ups, whose machine ate the package |
| 14:57.31 | prpplague | chouimat: not really, the I-551 is not considered a definitive proof of your ID |
| 14:57.33 | Crofton|home | lost green card, shredded passport |
| 14:57.45 | Crofton|home | I used to use my green card to buy beer |
| 14:57.58 | Crofton|home | but the picture was from when I was six :) |
| 14:58.08 | prpplague | Crofton|home: ha |
| 14:58.08 | chouimat | Crofton|home: nice |
| 14:59.01 | prpplague | we had to go get my wife a texas issued ID card |
| 14:59.30 | prpplague | a police officer almost gave her a ticket because the only ID she had her greencard and she was smoking a cigarette |
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| 15:01.33 | prpplague | i just don't get it when these people say "we aren't criminals!", what part of "illegal" do they not understand(no pun intended since they don't speak english most of the time) |
| 15:08.50 | chouimat | prpplague: from what I see is the "fix" don't work so why not close and freeze all the assets of those who hire those "illegals" then in a short time the problem will/might fix itself :) |
| 15:09.29 | prpplague | chouimat: "the 'fix' don't work" which fix is that? |
| 15:09.46 | prpplague | chouimat: but i do agree hiring illegals should be punished |
| 15:09.53 | chouimat | prpplague: most of the solution the us gov dreams of |
| 15:10.04 | prpplague | chouimat: even renting to illegals should be punished |
| 15:10.11 | prpplague | chouimat: thats really not the problem |
| 15:10.21 | prpplague | chouimat: the problem is that the current laws are not enforced |
| 15:10.44 | prpplague | chouimat: and when they are, i.e. like the city of irving, you get a media circus accusing them of being racist |
| 15:11.49 | chouimat | prpplague: then close the media all of them because between you and me since the apparition of CNN and friends the quality went downhill |
| 15:12.27 | prpplague | chouimat: hehe, your frenglish is bad today, hehe |
| 15:12.55 | prpplague | chouimat: you know that is not going to happen, freedom of press is constitionally protected |
| 15:13.19 | prpplague | chouimat: yea i'm not a fan of the Communist News Network |
| 15:14.17 | chouimat | prpplague: too much stuff todo today and I can't focus on anything and I have to finish something for "ASAP" |
| 15:14.36 | prpplague | chouimat: hehe |
| 15:15.55 | prpplague | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304718,00.html moral of that story, don't eat dogs |
| 15:17.34 | chouimat | prpplague: give the term "hot dog" a whole new meaning ;) |
| 15:17.56 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 16:00.11 | CosmicPenguin | so we're considering using buildroot to create Linux-as-bootloader images for LinuxBIOS |
| 16:00.15 | CosmicPenguin | what do you think about that? |
| 16:04.15 | chouimat | CosmicPenguin: some people will ask you why not OE? |
| 16:05.30 | CosmicPenguin | because thats not what OE is for |
| 16:06.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: should work out well, you may also look into landleys Firmware Linux |
| 16:07.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: it's not as robust yet as buildroot, but its usuable |
| 16:07.50 | CosmicPenguin | huh - interesting |
| 16:08.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm not familiar with exactly how linuxbios interoperates with the OS during booting, so my question is, will their be a problem with the linuxbios images using uclibc and the OS using something else? |
| 16:08.30 | prpplague | http://www.landley.net/code/firmware/ |
| 16:09.13 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, that might be up our alley |
| 16:09.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: FWL is more shell script oriented rather than makefile |
| 16:09.41 | CosmicPenguin | So LinuxBIOS is just a loader |
| 16:10.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so its pretty much stand alone |
| 16:10.08 | CosmicPenguin | in the same spirit as the loaders that we all know and love from the other architectures |
| 16:10.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: then buildroot or fwl should work fine |
| 16:10.28 | CosmicPenguin | It brings the processor(s) up, sets up memory, the southbridge, etc |
| 16:10.41 | CosmicPenguin | It then kicks into something called a payload, which also resides on the ROM |
| 16:11.06 | CosmicPenguin | The payload can be anything |
| 16:11.10 | CosmicPenguin | itcan be something like memtest86 |
| 16:11.11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 16:11.13 | CosmicPenguin | or etherboot |
| 16:11.18 | prpplague | cool deal |
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| 16:11.27 | CosmicPenguin | it can be a bootloader that loads a OS |
| 16:11.31 | CosmicPenguin | or it can be a kernel |
| 16:11.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: then i'd definetly say that buildroot or fwl will do the trick |
| 16:11.54 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but i suspect due to the size constrants and build options, fwl might do better for you |
| 16:12.05 | CosmicPenguin | In the case I was talking about - we have something called Linux-as-bootloader which basically loads a small filesystem, and uses that to find the real kernel, and kexec into it |
| 16:12.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: even though it is still relatively new |
| 16:12.30 | CosmicPenguin | Right now, we build our own LAB payloads, but I'm worried that our scripts don't scale as well as buildroot does |
| 16:13.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed, buildroot is pretty robust as far as that is concerned |
| 16:13.02 | CosmicPenguin | so I would rather get out of the kernel / uclibc / busybox business and focus just on building the payloads |
| 16:13.29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: however it does need a work over, many of sub directories for different archs aren't very well organized |
| 16:13.29 | CosmicPenguin | The only worry I have with buildroot, is to see if we can get it small enough |
| 16:13.40 | CosmicPenguin | We're looking at maximum sizes of 500k or so here |
| 16:14.06 | prpplague | hehe, someone from openbios.org just join #firmware , hehe |
| 16:14.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: 500k includes what? |
| 16:14.36 | CosmicPenguin | everything |
| 16:14.39 | CosmicPenguin | kernel, filesystem, kexec |
| 16:14.42 | CosmicPenguin | the whole shooting match |
| 16:14.58 | prpplague | thats pretty tight but its doable |
| 16:14.59 | CosmicPenguin | the loader + VGA + whatever is in the other 500k |
| 16:15.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no networking? |
| 16:15.09 | CosmicPenguin | lots of people would want networking |
| 16:15.13 | prpplague | ahh |
| 16:15.16 | CosmicPenguin | for OLPC, there was no way we could get networking on there |
| 16:15.25 | prpplague | the problem is that alot of the kernel tcp/ip is big |
| 16:15.35 | CosmicPenguin | You don't have to tell me that |
| 16:15.37 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:15.56 | CosmicPenguin | We know what our constraints are |
| 16:16.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i wonder if the -tiny kernel builds have any tcp/ip stack reductions |
| 16:16.14 | CosmicPenguin | Not enough |
| 16:16.23 | CosmicPenguin | our current LAB solution uses -tiny |
| 16:16.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: oh cool |
| 16:16.54 | CosmicPenguin | For OLPC, I fit kernel + fbdev + usb into a kernel, and squeezed that into a LAB that fit into 1mb |
| 16:17.02 | prpplague | nice |
| 16:17.05 | CosmicPenguin | It was a tight fit, though |
| 16:17.12 | CosmicPenguin | Networking completely blew that out |
| 16:17.36 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: there are alot of tweaks you can do to reduce overall kernel size that still aren't in the -tiny stuff |
| 16:17.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: anyway, to answer your question |
| 16:17.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: buildroot can do it |
| 16:18.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: FWL can do it, but i'm not sure you will be as happy with it since it is shell script based and not as robust yet |
| 16:18.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: personally i'd go with FWL, but thats just me |
| 16:19.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i've been meaning to set up a FWL for the Hammer, but have been swamped with some new board bringups |
| 16:20.44 | CosmicPenguin | Why is the buildroot svn 113Mb? |
| 16:20.49 | CosmicPenguin | thats silly |
| 16:21.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: thats odd, it shoudn't be that big |
| 16:22.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: sounds like someone might have checked in some files to the dl directory |
| 16:23.15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: odd |
| 16:23.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: mine is only 15Mb |
| 16:23.30 | CosmicPenguin | Must be me |
| 16:24.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: check you dl directory |
| 16:26.38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, looks like someone has checked a bunch of packages in |
| 16:26.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: tracing it now |
| 16:28.43 | prpplague | 15Mopenswan |
| 16:28.44 | prpplague | 15Mx11r7 |
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| 16:34.18 | CosmicPenguin | x11 strikes again |
| 16:34.52 | prpplague | yep |
| 16:42.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: let me know what you decide on the LAB builds |
| 16:42.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm curious how it turns out |
| 16:42.50 | CosmicPenguin | For now we're sticking with buildrom |
| 16:42.58 | CosmicPenguin | but we'll be investigating other alternatives |
| 16:43.11 | CosmicPenguin | personally, I don't really use LAB - I prefer FILO and etherboot |
| 16:43.32 | CosmicPenguin | But I'm the defacto buildrom maintainer so I care about what other people use |
| 16:43.56 | CosmicPenguin | I really truely believe that the payload is the most powerful part of LinuxBIOS |
| 16:44.02 | CosmicPenguin | thats where our customers will get their value-add |
| 16:44.17 | CosmicPenguin | so I am dedicated to making it easy to create new payloads and build systems |
| 16:44.32 | CosmicPenguin | the LinuxBIOS part of it is pretty straight forward and boring |
| 16:45.45 | CosmicPenguin | The reason why buildroot is so attractive is that it has so many packages already available |
| 16:45.59 | CosmicPenguin | so somebody can build in, say "dialog" without having to hack it in somewhere else |
| 16:46.18 | CosmicPenguin | There are people who have done full X implementations in a ROM, but I'm not nearly as interested in that |
| 16:46.20 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 16:46.32 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea i can relate |
| 16:48.06 | CosmicPenguin | nobody has added twin to buildroot yet? |
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| 17:20.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: twin? |
| 17:21.44 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: oh yea i remember that |
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| 20:44.14 | ds2 | \ |
| 21:38.22 | prpplague | davidc__: good luck on getting the fpc connectors for the new tft lcd |
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| 22:58.57 | *** join/#edev fishhead (n=nope@unaffiliated/fishhead) |
| 22:58.59 | fishhead | yo |
| 22:59.30 | fishhead | another cheap gem |
| 22:59.30 | fishhead | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:59.30 | fishhead | [18:49] * thepeopl1 is now known as thepeople |
| 22:59.31 | fishhead | [18:49] <flyback-> http://www.docunext.com/2007/07/21/can-this-router-run-linux/snb10860jpg/ |
| 22:59.31 | fishhead | [18:49] <flyback-> geeks.com and http://tekgems.com/Products/et-32857-net-is050t.htm |
| 22:59.31 | fishhead | [18:49] <flyback-> have this thing for like $13 |
| 22:59.33 | fishhead | [18:49] * flyback- orders like 5 :P |
| 23:00.21 | fishhead | can someone clear those old bans |
| 23:00.32 | fishhead | prpplague said before I could stay as long as I didn't cause trouble |
| 23:01.28 | fishhead | also |
| 23:01.32 | fishhead | check this one |
| 23:04.31 | fishhead | http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CH-MDP-2500R&cat=CON |
| 23:16.27 | jbevren | hm |
| 23:16.33 | jbevren | anyone have a motorola BT headset? |
| 23:16.44 | jbevren | I lost my charger and am trying to figure out how to make one |
| 23:17.10 | ohsix | all the ones i've seen use the same connector as the phone + have a splitter |
| 23:17.20 | CosmicPenguin | I have one, but I'm not taking it apart |
| 23:17.28 | ds2 | don't the motorolas take a USB cable to charge? |
| 23:17.44 | ds2 | mini USB connector, I think |
| 23:17.49 | CosmicPenguin | yeah - its a mini connector |
| 23:18.09 | ohsix | the razr does, only a few others do? |
| 23:18.16 | jbevren | nod |
| 23:18.18 | jbevren | 3pin |
| 23:18.20 | CosmicPenguin | My bluetooth headset does |
| 23:18.24 | jbevren | ds2: mine was an SC psu |
| 23:18.34 | fishhead | jbevren check those url's |
| 23:18.35 | fishhead | :P |
| 23:18.36 | ds2 | oh |
| 23:18.46 | jbevren | but teh plug had two plastic pins for keying, and 3 electrical contacts |
| 23:18.51 | ds2 | ones I saw at frys took a mini USB I think |
| 23:20.03 | jbevren | if its 5vdc, I'd make a usb charger :D |
| 23:20.22 | jbevren | whats the url? |
| 23:20.28 | jbevren | I mean, I can backscroll to it |
| 23:20.32 | jbevren | but what's it about |
| 23:20.32 | fishhead | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:20.32 | fishhead | [18:59] <fishhead> [18:49] * thepeopl1 is now known as thepeople |
| 23:20.33 | fishhead | [18:59] <fishhead> [18:49] <flyback-> http://www.docunext.com/2007/07/21/can-this-router-run-linux/snb10860jpg/ |
| 23:20.33 | fishhead | [18:59] <fishhead> [18:49] <flyback-> geeks.com and http://tekgems.com/Products/et-32857-net-is050t.htm |
| 23:20.33 | fishhead | [18:59] <fishhead> [18:49] <flyback-> have this thing for like $13 |
| 23:20.33 | fishhead | [18:59] <fishhead> [18:49] * flyback- orders like 5 :P |
| 23:20.37 | fishhead | http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CH-MDP-2500R&cat=CON |
| 23:20.46 | fishhead | $13 router |
| 23:20.52 | fishhead | the first few urls |
| 23:22.22 | fishhead | has a usb port hidden and a pcmcia header |
| 23:22.28 | fishhead | not to mention serial and jtag in the soc |
| 23:23.12 | *** join/#edev joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@adsl-65-67-66-40.dsl.fyvlar.swbell.net) |
| 23:23.33 | jbevren | heh |
| 23:23.35 | jbevren | just that one image? |
| 23:23.40 | jbevren | thats not very helpful |
| 23:23.45 | fishhead | well that was so you could see what it looked like |
| 23:23.48 | fishhead | no the can this router one |
| 23:24.04 | jbevren | this headset has a lithium battery with a sticker backing lol |
| 23:26.52 | fishhead | i'm also droolign at that kids's dvd player for $19 |
| 23:27.01 | fishhead | uses mini dvd |
| 23:27.07 | fishhead | I have a feeling that 2.5 inch lcd is hackable |
| 23:30.30 | jbevren | so this $13 router |
| 23:30.32 | jbevren | you have two links to it |
| 23:30.36 | jbevren | both are the same image |
| 23:31.15 | jbevren | both are devoid of useful information ;-) |
| 23:31.51 | jbevren | oh and I bet that mini-dvd player would play regular dvd's if you changed the laser head transport |
| 23:31.53 | jbevren | lol |
| 23:32.11 | fishhead | devoid? |
| 23:32.18 | fishhead | dude it already runs a illegal gpl violation linux |
| 23:32.23 | jbevren | umn |
| 23:32.25 | jbevren | its a picture |
| 23:32.28 | jbevren | and a low-res one at that |
| 23:32.30 | jbevren | where's the info? |
| 23:34.45 | fishhead | uhh |
| 23:34.49 | fishhead | http://www.docunext.com/2007/07/21/can-this-router-run-linux/snb10860jpg/ |
| 23:35.04 | fishhead | oh myu bad |
| 23:35.07 | fishhead | wrong start page |
| 23:35.14 | jbevren | that's an image. |
| 23:35.18 | jbevren | I believe Ive mentioned taht. |
| 23:35.19 | fishhead | http://www.docunext.com/2007/07/21/can-this-router-run-linux |
| 23:35.21 | jbevren | kkkk |
| 23:35.26 | fishhead | sorry I missed it :/ |
| 23:35.30 | jbevren | aha :) |
| 23:36.50 | fishhead | 64 mb ram and 8 meg flash |
| 23:36.54 | fishhead | very very nice |
| 23:43.46 | fishhead | and of course my favorite youtube vid of all time |
| 23:43.47 | fishhead | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpUv9LlXtVY# |
| 23:45.01 | joe_bleau | That's 8MB (or 64 megabits) of SDRAM, not 64MB (megabytes) |
| 23:45.11 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-4084.chameleon.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:45.14 | fishhead | you sure? |
| 23:45.42 | fishhead | 8mb wuld be too small |
| 23:47.47 | jbevren | 8M flash is plenty |
| 23:48.02 | jbevren | I built an XTerminal out of an old PC with an 8M ramdisk image |
| 23:48.18 | jbevren | if you can fit XF86 in 8M, you can build a linux routing distro |
| 23:49.27 | fishhead | yeah but I suspect it's m ore than 8MB cause I know most of the routing distros have problems that small |
| 23:49.33 | fishhead | although I guess technically it's 8+8 |
| 23:53.19 | jbevren | nod. the web UI takes a lot of space |
| 23:54.35 | fishhead | well let me me know what you find if they are worth getting a couple |