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| 14:09.19 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
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| 15:31.40 | prpplague | channel looks quiet |
| 15:31.51 | prpplague | everyone must enjoying their boxing day |
| 15:31.57 | prpplague | i/be |
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| 15:54.37 | *** topic/#edev is a channel for the discussion of hacking small consumer electronic devices, mostly ARM based; Hammer Development boards now available at http://www.tincantools.com/ |
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| 17:17.27 | *** join/#edev T0mW (n=Tom@24.238.86.158.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net) |
| 17:19.59 | prpplague | T0mW hey hey |
| 17:20.03 | prpplague | whats cookin? |
| 17:20.21 | T0mW | prpplague: not me, I'm still working through coffee |
| 17:20.36 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:20.55 | prpplague | T0mW had anymore time to hammer? |
| 17:21.06 | T0mW | prpplague: just thinking about "merry" Christmas at my Mom's yesterday. My brother-in-law and I got into it... |
| 17:21.26 | T0mW | prpplague: pissed him off an he left... |
| 17:21.27 | T0mW | heh |
| 17:21.52 | prpplague | doh |
| 17:21.58 | T0mW | prpplague: there ain't nothin' like family get togethers |
| 17:23.26 | T0mW | prpplague: I've had to suspend work on the Hammer for now. I had stolen the time that I did from other projects, now I have to catch up. |
| 17:24.11 | prpplague | ahh ok |
| 17:24.27 | GPSFan | prpplague: T0mW merry xmas dudes.. |
| 17:24.39 | prpplague | i'm trying to keep the interest high, so i'm trying to get a new round of dev going |
| 17:24.42 | prpplague | GPSFan greetings |
| 17:24.42 | T0mW | GPSFan: yeah, something like that. |
| 17:24.47 | prpplague | GPSFan whats cookin? |
| 17:25.27 | prpplague | T0mW you ever ran a 7-segment display on any of your other projects? |
| 17:25.28 | GPSFan | prpplague: not much, trying to stay warm. still 14F outside. |
| 17:25.35 | prpplague | GPSFan lovely |
| 17:25.50 | prpplague | GPSFan time to do some hammer dev? hehe |
| 17:26.04 | GPSFan | prpplague: it is supposed to have good effects. let me know how it is. |
| 17:26.12 | prpplague | will do |
| 17:26.16 | prpplague | GPSFan problem is |
| 17:26.30 | prpplague | GPSFan i've seen both of the other versions |
| 17:26.36 | GPSFan | prpplague: yes, still trying to get a good handle on bluetooth. |
| 17:26.37 | prpplague | GPSFan so i'm curious how this one will be |
| 17:27.14 | GPSFan | I read the article in CineFx about it, and have heard good thing. |
| 17:28.10 | prpplague | GPSFan hehe did it mention that it is a remake? |
| 17:29.25 | CosmicPenguin | man - you need to let that go |
| 17:29.35 | GPSFan | prpplague: yes Omega man and one other who's title I forget. |
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| 17:41.53 | T0mW | prpplague: I haven't run a 7 segment display in a long time |
| 17:42.06 | prpplague | http://imdb.com/title/tt0058700/ and then http://imdb.com/title/tt0067525/ |
| 17:42.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin hehe |
| 17:42.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin just amazed that so many movies are coming out and people act like they are new never before seen |
| 17:43.18 | prpplague | T0mW hmm, i've got a couple i want to try out with the hammer |
| 17:44.08 | prpplague | T0mW just trying to decide what to put on the nail_board |
| 17:45.00 | prpplague | ~seen landley |
| 17:45.37 | purl | landley <n=landley@cpe-72-177-114-214.austin.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #uclibc, 4d 14h 41m 50s ago, saying: 'Still catching up on everything since the documentation gig ended.'. |
| 17:45.37 | prpplague | ~seen landley |
| 17:45.38 | purl | landley <n=landley@cpe-72-177-114-214.austin.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #uclibc, 4d 14h 41m 51s ago, saying: 'Still catching up on everything since the documentation gig ended.'. |
| 17:45.54 | T0mW | I'm pretty impressed with the performance of the Embest mini2410 card running off the SD card. I ran a short perl program, hello world, and it executed very quickly. |
| 17:46.19 | T0mW | When I had tried that on the Zipit using the SPI interface, it took a while to execute. |
| 17:46.25 | prpplague | T0mW yea the sdio interface is pretty robust on the 24xx |
| 17:47.00 | prpplague | T0mW on the zipit, was that true spi or bitbanged? |
| 17:47.08 | T0mW | prpplague: bit-bang |
| 17:47.12 | prpplague | T0mW ahh yea |
| 17:47.22 | prpplague | T0mW thats the lowest of the lowest performance |
| 17:47.27 | T0mW | yeah |
| 17:48.18 | prpplague | getting a lot of questions like "why would buy the hammer over the gumstix?" lately |
| 17:48.34 | T0mW | prpplague: spi is problematic. It is useless with short payloads, but moving large blocks of data can be a performance problem. Especially if you are talking with another processor. |
| 17:48.35 | prpplague | alot of people are just looking a mhz clocks |
| 17:48.48 | prpplague | T0mW indeed |
| 17:49.38 | T0mW | I will have to run the SPI merely as a serial bus when talking to the LPC2000 processors. There is no DMA or features like that for the SPI in the LPC2000 chips. |
| 17:50.06 | prpplague | ahh |
| 17:50.24 | T0mW | well, unless you get into their higher-end 23xx and 24xx series |
| 17:51.19 | prpplague | ahh |
| 17:51.42 | T0mW | but then, where is the benefit? The 23xx and 24xx series have more peripherals and SDRAM, at that point, you could use a s3c2410 at almost the same cost and yet have an MMU |
| 17:52.02 | prpplague | T0mW so for the nail board i'm thinking, a couple of leds, a couple of push buttons, 8position dip switch, and a 7 segment display |
| 17:52.10 | prpplague | T0mW indeed |
| 17:52.41 | prpplague | T0mW what i can't decide on is about the usb host or 10baseT |
| 17:52.50 | T0mW | prpplague: what form factor is the nail board to be? |
| 17:53.02 | prpplague | T0mW oh you didn't see the pic? hehe |
| 17:53.09 | T0mW | no |
| 17:53.11 | prpplague | T0mW http://www.elinux.org/Nail_Board |
| 17:54.00 | prpplague | T0mW basically a usb dongle |
| 17:54.05 | prpplague | just a little longer |
| 17:54.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin hey, btw, i was thinking about your suggestion of having the usb slave available |
| 17:54.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin if i use a 4 port hub, i can connect the ft2232 on one port and the usb slave on another |
| 17:55.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin one connection to the pc, but you'd have both available |
| 17:55.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin the only thing about the usb hosts, is whether i need to have it recessed where you insert a dongle or have it on the end |
| 17:56.16 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin if you have it on the end, whatever you plug into it will just add to the length |
| 17:56.24 | T0mW | prpplague: I don't think I showed you this: http://www.openhardware.net/SuperMuxPad4.gif |
| 17:57.02 | T0mW | prpplague: lousy photo, but you get the idea |
| 17:57.02 | prpplague | T0mW yea you showed me a pic earlier |
| 17:57.06 | T0mW | ok |
| 17:57.10 | prpplague | T0mW looks good |
| 17:57.34 | prpplague | T0mW when do you think you'll post the info on your hammer carrier board? |
| 17:58.21 | T0mW | prpplague: It would need to be re-layed out, I use 6mil trace / spacing and it doesn't need that. I would also like the main board to be four layer. Sandwich the signal layers between the power planes to keep noise down. |
| 17:59.07 | prpplague | T0mW the hammer carrier board? |
| 17:59.26 | T0mW | prpplague: when I get the LCD working and can get some video on it. I had to stop work because of other commitments. The new hammer board came in and I just put it on the shelf for now. |
| 17:59.28 | T0mW | no time |
| 18:00.01 | prpplague | T0mW oh i thought you were saying you needed to re-layout the board |
| 18:00.24 | T0mW | prpplague: not on the HammerLCD, on the one I just showed you. |
| 18:00.31 | prpplague | ahh ok |
| 18:00.37 | T0mW | prpplague: I doubt that board would pass FCC testing |
| 18:00.59 | prpplague | T0mW ahh, so you are going with the embest board? |
| 18:01.20 | T0mW | prpplague: yes, it has the pinouts that I need |
| 18:01.32 | prpplague | lovely |
| 18:02.28 | prpplague | T0mW thoughts on the nail board? |
| 18:02.56 | T0mW | prpplague: all the embest card is is a simple engine. 64Meg of SDRAM + 16Meg Flash(overkill) with a 200MHz clock. All the TFT signals come out to the edge, etc. |
| 18:03.01 | prpplague | T0mW basically i'm thinking just a small dev board that you can take with you to starbucks |
| 18:03.17 | prpplague | T0mW gotcha |
| 18:03.31 | prpplague | T0mW the sledge hammer will have all that, just not the address and data bus |
| 18:03.39 | T0mW | prpplague: I don't see any use for the nail board for me. |
| 18:04.00 | prpplague | T0mW yea, i didn't think so |
| 18:04.06 | prpplague | T0mW its mainly for software guys |
| 18:04.52 | T0mW | prpplague: I did a rough design on the CPU card for the new system. That board has three 16bit latches and three 16bit input buffer chips that I put on the external data bus. |
| 18:05.27 | T0mW | prpplague: IMO, I think that you may get more OEM interest from a card like the Embest card. However, I don' |
| 18:05.36 | T0mW | t think that you can tough their pricing. |
| 18:05.44 | T0mW | s/tough/touch/ |
| 18:05.55 | T0mW | s/can/can't |
| 18:06.06 | prpplague | T0mW you'd be surprised |
| 18:06.42 | prpplague | T0mW that 7210 cpu card i sent you is just about $36 our costs |
| 18:06.47 | T0mW | prpplague: I probably would be, I havent' priced out the S3C2410 and other components on that card |
| 18:07.11 | prpplague | T0mW but there are a ton of people doing sodimm cards |
| 18:07.34 | prpplague | T0mW we'd like some OEM's but our main target is hobby and quick prototypinh |
| 18:09.45 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah, that is trickey for me to suggest something where a hobbyist would be interested. I am so used to laying out my own boards that it is not a burden to me, and, I just don't know the hobby market (robotics). |
| 18:10.50 | prpplague | T0mW yea, most of the software guys don't want to do anything with the hardware |
| 18:10.59 | prpplague | T0mW they want to take it out of the box and use it |
| 18:11.09 | prpplague | T0mW kinda why i was looking at doing the nail_board |
| 18:11.31 | SpeedEvil | Though the segregation between the two skill-sets is nice for those of us that can code and solder. |
| 18:12.47 | T0mW | I've been doing this mixture of design + coding for so long now that I just don't know. |
| 18:14.40 | SpeedEvil | (the ground side.) |
| 18:17.38 | prpplague | cool |
| 18:20.19 | SpeedEvil | Do you happen to know of any bt-serial modules cheaper than the canned ones? |
| 18:20.28 | SpeedEvil | ($100 or so) |
| 18:21.32 | prpplague | T0mW what the heck is a 75189 chip? |
| 18:21.39 | prpplague | i don't recognize that |
| 18:21.54 | SpeedEvil | rs232 line driver |
| 18:21.58 | SpeedEvil | or is it a reciever. |
| 18:21.59 | *** join/#edev ccjoe (n=ccjoe@www.clearcore.com) |
| 18:22.04 | SpeedEvil | Old Skool stuff. |
| 18:22.20 | SpeedEvil | 232-5V |
| 18:23.12 | prpplague | hmm, wonder why someone would use that instead of 245? |
| 18:23.31 | SpeedEvil | cheaper? They found 1000 under the bed? :) |
| 18:24.19 | prpplague | just seems an odd choice to post a schematic on circuitcellar for |
| 18:24.48 | SpeedEvil | Might be a 'parts bin' maybe. |
| 18:26.00 | prpplague | hmm |
| 18:26.19 | prpplague | i'd think a 74ahc245 would be a better choice |
| 18:29.40 | GPSFan | prpplague: a 75189 is a level shifter like a 1489 +/- 12 rs232 levels in 5V out part of the 1488/1489 75188/75189 family. first built when ttl was all their was (other than dtl) |
| 18:30.11 | GPSFan | (and rtl) |
| 18:31.40 | prpplague | GPSFan ahh, just seems odd they'd use it to level shift from 3.3v to 5v |
| 18:33.22 | prpplague | another thing i'm not sure of on the nail board, is if it needs a case |
| 18:35.12 | GPSFan | prpplague: if software types are going to use it at strabucks, they will spill coffee all over it if it hasn't a case and get it full of doughnut crumbs. |
| 18:35.23 | prpplague | indeed |
| 18:35.24 | prpplague | http://www.serpac.com/products_h-45.htm |
| 18:35.30 | prpplague | thats kinda what i was thinking |
| 18:35.35 | prpplague | but thats not much like a dongle |
| 18:36.36 | GPSFan | can the hammer fit in the height with the jtag connector? |
| 18:36.54 | prpplague | the other item i was thinking of was a cheap eye glasses box |
| 18:37.24 | prpplague | GPSFan not with the current straigh connector, but with a right angle connector it would |
| 18:37.27 | GPSFan | or a shoe, for the Maxwell Smart version. ;>) |
| 18:37.32 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:38.10 | prpplague | GPSFan i actually was considering making it the shape and size of a bar of soap, then you could use a soap box |
| 18:38.35 | prpplague | a toothbrush holder works right now, but its hard to get the nail board in and out |
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| 18:42.50 | prpplague | davidc__ greetings |
| 18:43.00 | davidc__ | ay prpplague |
| 18:44.33 | ds2 | happy boxing day |
| 18:45.31 | davidc__ | yup - so what are you all doing in the channel? Not shopping on boxing day?!?! |
| 18:45.32 | davidc__ | [ |
| 18:46.03 | SpeedEvil | And looking for cheap thermopiles. |
| 18:46.30 | ds2 | thermopiles? trying to generate a usable amount of thermoelectricity? |
| 18:46.34 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 18:46.44 | SpeedEvil | they are the guts of IR thermometers. |
| 18:47.00 | SpeedEvil | And the sky is colder than the ground (usually) so they make good attitude sensors. |
| 18:47.08 | ds2 | oh thought they were basically peltier junctions? |
| 18:47.19 | SpeedEvil | that's one sort |
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| 21:55.27 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 22:00.14 | prpplague | landley ping |
| 22:00.21 | landley | prpplague: pong. |
| 22:00.21 | prpplague | landley whats cookin? |
| 22:00.31 | landley | Banging on tinycc at the moment. |
| 22:00.59 | landley | I've got patch and multi-threaded bunzip half-finished for toybox, probably all I'll get into the end of year release for that. |
| 22:01.03 | prpplague | landley so i've been tinkering with different config's for the nail board |
| 22:01.10 | prpplague | landley yea read your log |
| 22:01.20 | landley | how's the nail board going? |
| 22:01.28 | landley | I checked the page, but it still just had the original photo. |
| 22:01.39 | prpplague | landley hardware is fine, its all working, i just can't decide on a few things |
| 22:01.42 | prpplague | landley http://www.serpac.com/products_h-45.htm |
| 22:01.54 | prpplague | landley thats an off the shelf case, too big ? |
| 22:02.31 | landley | Well, it removes a significant amount of the "coolness" factor. |
| 22:02.39 | landley | You could almost stick the current board in that case. |
| 22:02.55 | prpplague | landley well thats pretty small, |
| 22:03.09 | landley | 4 inches? |
| 22:03.17 | landley | I need a ruler... |
| 22:03.32 | prpplague | yea, 4" x 2.2" |
| 22:03.45 | prpplague | a little longer than a credit card |
| 22:04.02 | landley | I suppose it's doable. |
| 22:04.12 | landley | You'd definitely need it on a cord rather than trying to plug it directly into the laptop, though. |
| 22:05.14 | prpplague | landley yea, usb-b port |
| 22:06.01 | landley | Unfortunately I'm really not getting a good idea of the size from that page, and I'm at the laundromat at the moment so I haven't got a ruler or tape measure handy. |
| 22:06.16 | prpplague | landley hehe, np, |
| 22:06.49 | prpplague | landley a rough shape would about the same as a standard texas drivers license or Credit card |
| 22:07.03 | prpplague | landley only about 1.25" thick |
| 22:07.50 | prpplague | landley i think the items i'm getting stuck on are what i/o to put on the board, i.e. leds, buttons, displays |
| 22:08.22 | prpplague | landley in addition how refined does it need to look |
| 22:09.21 | landley | Well, to answer the "refined" question, I'd be pretty happy if you just laminated the circuitry board. |
| 22:09.26 | landley | I'm probably not the person to ask there. |
| 22:09.36 | landley | I just want something that works and won't break in my backpack. |
| 22:10.37 | landley | As for I/O, an LED I can blink proves that my software is running on the board (which is vital), and a button I can sense provides independent I/O of some kind (nice, but not vital). |
| 22:11.01 | landley | Beyond that? I don't personally care. |
| 22:11.21 | landley | The "I like to tinker with hardware" crowd would love having either a dozen LEDs or a multi-segment display, but not for the reasons you probably think. :) |
| 22:11.30 | prpplague | landley hmm |
| 22:11.31 | landley | They'd love to rip them off and use the triggers to power other arbitrary things. |
| 22:11.38 | landley | Little motors and such for the robotics crowd... |
| 22:11.47 | prpplague | landley yea, i think i'll make a seperate board for that |
| 22:11.56 | landley | Doorbell buzzers... :) |
| 22:12.00 | landley | Model train sets. |
| 22:12.08 | ds2 | heh, didn't prpplague clarify to me the other day that the nail board is not for that use? ;) |
| 22:12.09 | prpplague | landley so for you, just a few leds, buttons, and the buzzer would be plenty? |
| 22:12.20 | prpplague | ds2 indeed |
| 22:12.20 | landley | Of course it's not for that use. Doesn't mean people won't. :) |
| 22:12.38 | landley | The thing about the nail board is it tries to lower the barrier to entry for people playing around with it. |
| 22:12.49 | landley | no dangly cables, no free space needed on the kitchen table. |
| 22:12.56 | landley | Take it with you on airplanes or bus rides... |
| 22:12.58 | ds2 | personally, I think a logic analyzer attached to the GPIO is more useful for software development |
| 22:13.05 | landley | Or anywhere else you take your laptop. |
| 22:13.15 | ds2 | then when it gets popped into the real enviroment, and it doesn't work...that's a driver (physical) issue |
| 22:13.22 | prpplague | ds2 well i looked, i can do 4 gpio's |
| 22:13.31 | prpplague | ds2 connected to the ft2232 |
| 22:13.32 | landley | prpplague: can't you do all that through a jtag? |
| 22:13.42 | landley | i thought you could use a jtag as a debugger... |
| 22:14.00 | ds2 | prpplague: you had a good reason... not pressing it, just adding wrenches to the discussion ;) |
| 22:14.08 | landley | I also know you can use gdb through the serial port, because I've done it. :) |
| 22:14.26 | prpplague | landley indeed, but often times when doing the hardware debugging, you kind have to make sure you are actually getting what you expect with a logic analizer |
| 22:14.30 | landley | In fact, I've tunneled gdb over ssh. |
| 22:14.49 | ds2 | i.e debugging GPIO mux config ;) |
| 22:14.59 | prpplague | landley i.e. in the software world adding a printf for some variables to make sure are getting the values you expect |
| 22:15.21 | landley | If you're reprogramming the GPIO to act like a PATA controller, sure. |
| 22:15.30 | prpplague | landley this would be just a gee wiz feature that doesn't cost anything |
| 22:15.39 | landley | If you're ripping off an LED and using its contacts to trigger a model train set? Less so. |
| 22:15.43 | landley | Go for it then. |
| 22:16.02 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 22:16.16 | landley | Actually, if the LEDs are on the case and there are wires leading to them, even your very ameteur solderer can see how to repurpose that. :) |
| 22:16.51 | ds2 | now if they are 0603 sized on a dense board... }:-) |
| 22:16.58 | prpplague | landley indeed, however i had planned on using smd leds, basically when the case is on they shine thru |
| 22:17.18 | landley | I'm not planning on doing much with the I/O anyway. |
| 22:17.26 | landley | I'm not your target market there. |
| 22:17.33 | landley | I ask _other_ people to fiddle with hardware, or buy it pre-fiddled. |
| 22:17.39 | prpplague | what i had planned to do is bring out connections to several headers so if someone want to tinker they could |
| 22:17.45 | prpplague | landley hehe |
| 22:17.58 | prpplague | landley i find your area of usage to be pretty common |
| 22:18.06 | prpplague | landley thats kinda why i was looking at your idea |
| 22:18.07 | prpplague | s |
| 22:19.05 | prpplague | landley once last last question, CosmicPenguin suggested that we have the usb slave on the hammer connected to the pc as well |
| 22:19.36 | prpplague | landley basically when you plugged in the nail board you'd go first to a 4 port hub, then you'd get the hammers usb slave and the ft2232 slave |
| 22:19.50 | prpplague | landley that way you could do usbnet on a single cable |
| 22:20.01 | prpplague | you've have networking with the host pc |
| 22:20.42 | prpplague | landley for a linux pc, usbnet is darn easy to work with |
| 22:20.59 | prpplague | landley its usable on winblows, but a little more difficult to setup |
| 22:21.20 | ds2 | prpplague: how are you going to handle the USB id thing? |
| 22:21.40 | prpplague | ds2 i'm not sure i understand your question |
| 22:22.12 | ds2 | prpplague: as I understand it, the gadget drivers all come with a dummy mfg/device id... aren't you require to allocate proper ones prior to deploying? |
| 22:22.53 | prpplague | ds2 indeed, however, several have been donated as generic devices, plus AML is the proud owner of a usb vendor ID |
| 22:23.05 | ds2 | ah |
| 22:23.24 | ds2 | then you can legitimately write up .INF files for windows |
| 22:23.50 | prpplague | ds2 indeed, i forget which corp donated the current generic ID's |
| 22:25.00 | landley | prpplague: ok, need to clarify a bit... |
| 22:25.21 | landley | The USB connection powering the device is called what? |
| 22:25.26 | landley | (I've been thinking of it as "upstream".) |
| 22:25.45 | landley | You talked about having a second "downstream" usb instead of an ethernet connection. |
| 22:25.55 | prpplague | landley the pc side is a usb host, the other side or downstream are usb slave |
| 22:26.12 | landley | ok... |
| 22:26.19 | prpplague | landley the other usb host we talked about would be to the s3c2410, not to the host pc |
| 22:26.26 | landley | Still a bit confused. Slave to what? |
| 22:26.47 | ds2 | ARRRGGGG... how long do laptops last for you guys? |
| 22:27.04 | prpplague | landley host pc(host) connected to the nailboard(slave) |
| 22:27.31 | landley | There's the host side and the gadget side. |
| 22:27.37 | prpplague | correct |
| 22:27.43 | prpplague | landley the s3c2410 has both available |
| 22:28.02 | prpplague | landley visually you can imaging it like this |
| 22:28.11 | prpplague | landley you pc is connected to a 4 port hub |
| 22:28.23 | prpplague | landley on the 4 port hub you'd have the flyswatter board |
| 22:28.36 | prpplague | landley and also on the 4 port hub you'd have the hammer board connected |
| 22:28.51 | prpplague | landley now the hammer board can pretend to be any number of slave devices |
| 22:29.06 | prpplague | landley it can pretend it is a network device, rs-232, or mass storage for example |
| 22:29.11 | landley | There's no hub in the common case, there's a point to point connection. |
| 22:29.34 | landley | The point of the external I/O is to give you something to program the device to _do_. |
| 22:30.07 | landley | So you can plug it into an arbitrary power source (laptop at the GRUB screen, hub, etc) and talk to it as an independent computer to see it do its thing by itself. |
| 22:30.45 | landley | Also, you can loop an ethernet cable back around to the host machine and talk to it that way, but that's just one option. |
| 22:30.58 | landley | (Do they make usb crossover cables?) |
| 22:31.06 | ds2 | no, that is disallowed |
| 22:31.21 | landley | Which is disallowed, usb->usb data cables? |
| 22:31.24 | ds2 | USB is purely a master-slave protocol that runs almost like token ring |
| 22:31.32 | prpplague | landley well thats the thing, if you use the usb hub chip along with with hammer you get what you are talking about in a single cable |
| 22:31.36 | prpplague | ds2 yes they do |
| 22:31.37 | ds2 | yes, USB-USB passive cables are disallowed |
| 22:31.43 | prpplague | ds2 and they are supported in linux |
| 22:31.46 | landley | So it's no longer orthogonal. |
| 22:31.53 | ds2 | prpplague: that is not a passive cable. it is really a device with 2 device ports |
| 22:32.00 | landley | The device an only ever talk to the laptop it's plugged into. |
| 22:32.01 | prpplague | ds2 that is correct |
| 22:32.25 | ds2 | marketing would say it is a "cable" |
| 22:32.51 | prpplague | landley well, although its directly connected to the host pc, as long as you have ip forwarding enabled it works fine |
| 22:33.16 | landley | You could do a ppp connection through the serial port and do IP forwarding on the host laptop. |
| 22:33.24 | landley | The extra ethernet device buys you nothing you can't already do in software. |
| 22:33.47 | landley | Grabbing tea... |
| 22:33.59 | prpplague | landley well the extra usb allows you emulate a whole range of devices not just networking |
| 22:34.08 | ds2 | now go teach newbies how to configure and debug PPP |
| 22:34.12 | prpplague | landley you can emulate mass storage, rs-232 as well as networking |
| 22:34.41 | ds2 | if someone would do the code to make the g_serial module capable of acting as a console... |
| 22:34.43 | prpplague | landley you ever used an ipaq with usbnet? |
| 22:35.05 | prpplague | ds2 thats a waste, no one is going to use that in standard designs |
| 22:35.08 | landley | prpplague: I've played doom on an ipaq, that was about it. |
| 22:35.16 | prpplague | landley hehe |
| 22:35.34 | ds2 | prpplague: why not? I can see it being used on something like the WRT54 with a hidden USB port |
| 22:35.35 | landley | I can emulate a block device through a serial connection. |
| 22:35.40 | landley | Set it up as ppp and do a network block device. |
| 22:36.01 | ds2 | the broadcom chip supports USB, AFAIK |
| 22:36.07 | prpplague | landley indeed, the key is that usbnet handles all the lower level network connection portion associated with ppp |
| 22:36.09 | landley | Now if you wanted to set it up so that when you plug it in as USB you see the flash as a block device and can re-flash it by writing ot the block device, that would be highly cool. |
| 22:36.24 | ds2 | landley: that is doable |
| 22:36.40 | prpplague | landley i.e. when you plug usbnet in the systems basically see it as a 10baseT on each device with a cross over cable |
| 22:36.40 | landley | Does it require software to be running on the device? |
| 22:36.59 | prpplague | landley completely doable for the block device |
| 22:37.09 | prpplague | landley yea linux has to be running |
| 22:37.18 | landley | I was just about to ask that, which makes it useless. |
| 22:37.44 | landley | "hey, let me reflash the Linux on the device. Linux has to be running for me to do this, so I'm wiping the running kernel and hoping that the mounted filesystem doesn't change anythign I've just written". |
| 22:37.45 | landley | No thanks. |
| 22:38.09 | landley | My preferred techniqe for flashing a device is the one that gets it out of "brick" state. |
| 22:38.11 | ds2 | eh? |
| 22:38.19 | landley | I generally only bother to learn one way to do it, and then script that. |
| 22:38.23 | ds2 | no need, make root a ramdisk and flash away |
| 22:38.29 | landley | Phone... |
| 22:38.34 | prpplague | landley ahh i think you are missing the idea, with mass storage your pc see the device as a thumb drive, just copy files, i.e. programs you need to test |
| 22:38.35 | ds2 | but it is potentially a one way trip. best have jtag around ;) |
| 22:39.12 | prpplague | landley i guess my main question is what do you want to use the ethernet connection for? |
| 22:40.08 | landley | Lots of things. 1) If I have an ethernet connection, I can run dropbear on the device and have an arbitrary number of consoles. |
| 22:40.25 | landley | 2) Most of my interaction with embedded devices is via a web server running on the device. |
| 22:40.50 | landley | 3) It's external I/O, making the device do something that QEMU can't. |
| 22:41.27 | prpplague | ok if thats the case, i'm convinced this will work for you |
| 22:41.48 | landley | You're making it so that the device has no external I/O except blinking lights. |
| 22:41.56 | landley | So I carry around a device that plugs into my laptop to be a qemu instance. |
| 22:42.09 | landley | It does nothing that QEMU can't, except emulate hardware more closely. |
| 22:42.26 | prpplague | landley the i/o is directly with the pc |
| 22:42.33 | landley | Exactly. |
| 22:42.50 | landley | It can _only_ talk to the PC. |
| 22:42.59 | landley | It can never talk to the outside world except through the PC. |
| 22:43.06 | landley | It's just like having a qemu instance. |
| 22:43.24 | landley | I guess if that's what you're going for... |
| 22:43.40 | prpplague | landley well it answers the 3 points you addressed |
| 22:43.49 | prpplague | landley you get muliple consoles |
| 22:43.52 | landley | What can it do that qemu can't? |
| 22:43.57 | landley | Blink an LED? |
| 22:44.18 | prpplague | landley once sec phone |
| 22:46.03 | prpplague | landley basically thats it, it would be a hardware qemu( yea yea i know) |
| 22:46.28 | prpplague | landley basically a plug in virtual machine without the qemu setup |
| 22:46.29 | landley | I have qemu. |
| 22:46.45 | landley | Already. |
| 22:46.55 | landley | What's the point? |
| 22:46.56 | prpplague | landley the other aspect is that it is that you can plug it to a windows pc and have a complete linux system |
| 22:47.06 | landley | You can run qemu on windows. |
| 22:47.07 | landley | Today. |
| 22:47.11 | landley | Have been able to for years now. |
| 22:47.27 | prpplague | landley indeed, however it might not be your pc |
| 22:47.34 | landley | Is qemu really harder to set up than this device would be? |
| 22:47.39 | prpplague | landley but anyway i think i digress |
| 22:47.42 | prpplague | landley oh yea |
| 22:47.45 | landley | You're now talking about something that instantiates three devices when you plug it in. |
| 22:47.47 | prpplague | landley much harder |
| 22:47.53 | landley | Plus you have to flash it to get a kernel in there, instead of doing -kernel. |
| 22:48.06 | landley | Much harder for hardware people. Much easier for software people. |
| 22:48.16 | prpplague | landley i'm sorry i didn't understand that |
| 22:48.17 | landley | Also, qemu's been out for years. Rather a lot of people know how to do it now, and have written docs on how to do it. |
| 22:48.38 | prpplague | landley ahh ok |
| 22:48.53 | landley | The external I/O makes the device _seem_ like a seprate computer. |
| 22:49.02 | landley | Having no external I/O makes the device seem like... qemu. |
| 22:49.08 | prpplague | landley so if you were to have a 10baseT what would you be connecting it to? |
| 22:49.39 | prpplague | landley which is kinda why i was wanting more i/o like the 7-segment display or a small lcd |
| 22:49.39 | landley | Most likely? Running a cable around to the back of my laptop. |
| 22:49.41 | landley | I do see your point. |
| 22:49.47 | landley | But I have a separate one. |
| 22:50.11 | landley | A device with external I/O has the potential to be something other than a toy. |
| 22:50.13 | prpplague | landley just figured if you were running the cable back to the pc, might as well be one cable |
| 22:50.17 | landley | Whether or not the potential is ever realized is a seprate issue. |
| 22:50.25 | prpplague | landley right |
| 22:50.33 | ds2 | problem with QEMU is limited ARM support |
| 22:50.37 | landley | Taking away the ability to connect to the outside world directly turns the device into a qemu instance. |
| 22:50.43 | landley | ds2: due to ARM inc. being evil. |
| 22:51.04 | landley | I'm not going to stop holding a grudge against arm inc. just because them being evil encourages people to buy more hardware from them. |
| 22:51.13 | ds2 | that's part of it, the other part of it is lack of ARM peripherial emulation |
| 22:51.19 | prpplague | landley well here is the thing, using the usbnet connection doesn't cost anything, i could have both on the design |
| 22:51.21 | landley | The qemu guys had armv6 and v7 support completed over a year ago. |
| 22:51.27 | prpplague | landley i.e. its just 2 wires |
| 22:51.30 | landley | They're just being held hostange by NDAs. |
| 22:51.48 | landley | Having extra is fine. |
| 22:51.58 | ds2 | IIRC, that's just he instructionset support |
| 22:52.01 | landley | Although I do worry that plugging in a device that shows up as 3 devices requires some _very_clear_ documentation. |
| 22:52.10 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 22:52.25 | prpplague | landley we've already been beta testing a new device cradle in the field |
| 22:52.35 | landley | cradle? |
| 22:52.36 | prpplague | landley and we did run into documentation problems |
| 22:52.48 | ds2 | just assume everyone is omniscient ;) |
| 22:52.55 | prpplague | landley for the M5900, the cradle has a usb 4 port internally |
| 22:52.59 | landley | ds2: if they were, they wouldn't need this piece of hardware. |
| 22:53.08 | prpplague | landley so when you plug it in you actually get 4 seperate devices |
| 22:53.15 | landley | usb 4 port... hub? |
| 22:53.24 | landley | 4 usb ports? |
| 22:53.26 | prpplague | landley a usb modem, bluetoot, the handheld and 4 port hub |
| 22:53.36 | prpplague | landley yea sorry typing too fast |
| 22:53.59 | prpplague | landley but i agree there would be the need for good docs |
| 22:54.38 | ds2 | prpplague: from the discussions here, a good doc or page on USB might be in order |
| 22:54.47 | prpplague | ds2 yep |
| 22:54.53 | prpplague | ds2 already made a note |
| 22:54.58 | ds2 | heh |
| 22:55.00 | landley | ok, back up. |
| 22:55.01 | prpplague | ds2 but i have a list a mile long |
| 22:55.17 | landley | You're proposing the nail board plugs into my laptop via USB. |
| 22:55.23 | prpplague | correct |
| 22:55.40 | landley | When it does so, it presents as 1) a serial port (for /dev/console), 2) a jtag serialish port, 3) an ethernet device. |
| 22:55.53 | prpplague | landley and a 4 port usb hub |
| 22:55.55 | ds2 | + 4) a hub |
| 22:56.06 | landley | It shows up as a USB hub? |
| 22:56.07 | landley | Why? |
| 22:56.15 | landley | A hub you can't plug anything... |
| 22:56.17 | landley | Ah, I see. |
| 22:56.22 | landley | That's plumbing. I don't caree. |
| 22:56.22 | prpplague | correct |
| 22:56.25 | prpplague | correct |
| 22:56.31 | landley | I care about what shows up in /dev on my laptop. |
| 22:56.36 | ds2 | because the alternative is to get the verilog and redo it so it enumerates with multiple descriptors ;) |
| 22:56.50 | landley | mdev instantiates a /dev/ttyS1, /dev/ttyS2, and I also get an ifconfig eth2. |
| 22:57.11 | landley | The hub is details. |
| 22:57.27 | prpplague | correct |
| 22:58.03 | prpplague | landley so as far as you host pc is concerned you have the serial port, the jtag port and the usbnet |
| 22:58.29 | landley | Does usbnet show up as eth2? |
| 22:58.41 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:58.43 | SpeedEvil | usb0 |
| 22:58.44 | landley | Keep in mind I've never used usbnet. |
| 22:58.51 | SpeedEvil | ifconfig usb0 asnormal |
| 22:59.04 | landley | So this isn't something I can ifconfig, this is something I have to figure out how to set up magic software to talk to. |
| 22:59.15 | landley | I'll just tunnel a network connection over the serial port, I already know how to do that. |
| 22:59.23 | SpeedEvil | the name of psuedo-ethernet devices is completely arbitrary |
| 22:59.29 | prpplague | landley no you can use ifconfig on it with no problems |
| 22:59.29 | SpeedEvil | they show up as wlan, usb0, ... |
| 22:59.47 | prpplague | landley as far tcp/ip is concerned its a standard nic interface |
| 22:59.50 | landley | Ok. |
| 23:00.01 | landley | What host driver do I need to make sure I have? Document that. |
| 23:00.04 | landley | insmod _blah_ |
| 23:00.07 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:01.07 | ds2 | you can always use ifrename to make it eth2 |
| 23:01.09 | ds2 | =) |
| 23:01.09 | SpeedEvil | It just looks like normal - usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 9A:1F:28:FD:E3:A5 |
| 23:01.09 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:02.29 | prpplague | landley usbnet is pretty heavily documented and testing with the ipaqs and such |
| 23:02.39 | landley | Ok. |
| 23:02.46 | prpplague | landley almost all distro's already include it in the base install |
| 23:02.52 | landley | Having an ethernet device show up on the host in addition to the serial port is nice. |
| 23:03.14 | landley | Not having any outside I/O other than blinky lights takes some of the fun out, though. |
| 23:03.30 | prpplague | landley indeed, so for portable dev you just need one cable, when you are ready to implement the device, you have a whole set of options |
| 23:03.35 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 23:03.43 | prpplague | landley which is why i was looking for more i/o |
| 23:03.56 | prpplague | landley stuff like small 7-seg's or a small 2x12 lcd |
| 23:04.06 | SpeedEvil | mobile phone display |
| 23:04.16 | SpeedEvil | the small mono ones are $5 or so |
| 23:04.31 | SpeedEvil | 40*50 pix or so |
| 23:04.44 | landley | The thing is, you're plugging a separate computer into your laptop. |
| 23:04.54 | landley | And then you're trying very hard to make it not seem like a separate computer. |
| 23:06.00 | ds2 | prpplague: how are you solving the power enumeration issue? AFAIK, the FTxxxx devices enumber as a sub100mA device so do most hubs or you just going to assume the PC can do 500mA min.? |
| 23:08.06 | prpplague | ds2 the tusb2046 has an eeprom i can program for the correct max values and connectivity |
| 23:08.15 | landley | As far as I can tell, the nail board you're proposing cannot be used in any context other than plugging it into a laptop. |
| 23:08.25 | landley | Without a host computer to talk to, it does nothing. |
| 23:08.42 | landley | There's no theoretical circumstance under which it _could_ do anything except talk to the one host computer it's plugged into. |
| 23:09.03 | prpplague | landley actually i'll have a connector for a wallwart, and if you connect something like a usb->ethernet to the usb host of the s3c2410 its completely standalone |
| 23:09.19 | prpplague | landley in addition, i'll have a battery input connector |
| 23:09.26 | landley | "usb host" is what? |
| 23:09.42 | landley | Do you mean it still has upstream and downstream usb connections? |
| 23:09.47 | prpplague | landley hehe the confusing is the the s3c2410 has two ports, one host and one slave |
| 23:10.10 | landley | Just FYI. |
| 23:10.21 | prpplague | landley ahh interesting |
| 23:10.29 | SpeedEvil | It has two ports, one host only, one host/device (unless I'm confused) |
| 23:11.00 | prpplague | SpeedEvil techincally that is correct, however, for the hammer board the host/device port is configured as a slave |
| 23:11.14 | landley | Ok, if you have a usb host port talking to the outside world, sure. That's fine. |
| 23:11.34 | landley | device == slave? |
| 23:11.41 | prpplague | landley exactly, you can plug what ever you want in, just like you'd plug in to a pc |
| 23:11.42 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 23:11.44 | landley | Linux has "usb gadget support". |
| 23:11.48 | SpeedEvil | a device is a mouse or something |
| 23:11.50 | landley | gadget == device == slave? |
| 23:11.51 | SpeedEvil | a host is a computer |
| 23:12.01 | landley | Ok, host seems consistent. |
| 23:12.05 | landley | We have host and "not host". |
| 23:12.16 | prpplague | SpeedEvil slave and device are interchangable |
| 23:12.23 | prpplague | SpeedEvil gadget is a type of slave |
| 23:12.25 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 23:12.25 | prpplague | oops |
| 23:12.28 | landley | Right, so you have a USB host talking to the outside world, and a usb "larry" talking to the laptop. |
| 23:12.29 | prpplague | thats for landley |
| 23:12.35 | T0mW | landley: a gadget is when a linux board behaves like it was a thumbdrive, or USB serial port |
| 23:12.53 | *** join/#edev ico2__ (n=ico2@modem-2586.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:13.01 | prpplague | landley gadget is a term refering to a usb slave that can "pretend" to be any number of slave types |
| 23:13.06 | landley | If gadget is a type of slave, what would a non-gadget slave be? |
| 23:13.11 | landley | Ah. |
| 23:13.15 | T0mW | landley: host |
| 23:13.16 | prpplague | landley i.e. the slave port can pretend it is a network device |
| 23:13.16 | landley | Software implemented slave device. |
| 23:13.21 | prpplague | landley correct |
| 23:13.28 | landley | Ok. |
| 23:13.37 | landley | I still think I'm going to call it "larry" at this point. |
| 23:13.41 | prpplague | hehe |
| 23:13.59 | T0mW | like: leisure-suit larry? |
| 23:14.03 | prpplague | landley don't feel bad, i've used more than one costco size bottle of tylenol when dealing with usb issues |
| 23:14.17 | landley | I don't feel bad, I just feel confused. |
| 23:14.20 | landley | I'm used to feeling confused. |
| 23:14.24 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: are there any upcoming similar devices with USB2? |
| 23:14.26 | landley | It's pretty much my ground state. |
| 23:15.24 | landley | So, lemme get this straight: you'd be using Linux "gadget" support to fake a usb ethernet device pointed at the laptop? |
| 23:15.24 | SpeedEvil | landley: yes - that's how I'm connected to my phone. |
| 23:15.28 | ds2 | it is not fake, it is a real implementation |
| 23:15.30 | landley | In theory, said linux kernel could be configured to make that look like another serial port, or a block device, or...? |
| 23:15.41 | SpeedEvil | In practice even. |
| 23:15.42 | landley | It's done in software. |
| 23:15.46 | SpeedEvil | yep |
| 23:16.13 | landley | The serial port would be an actual hardware USB serial port? |
| 23:16.42 | ds2 | as I understand there could be 2 serial ports, one real hardware based and the other software based if g_serial is used |
| 23:16.50 | landley | ok. |
| 23:16.54 | landley | That's actually cool. |
| 23:17.15 | landley | Took rather a lot of explaining for me to figure out what you were talking about. :) |
| 23:17.20 | ds2 | this might make a good USB gadget developers platform |
| 23:17.26 | landley | Exactly. |
| 23:17.36 | landley | USB serial port lets you talk to the bootloader. |
| 23:17.43 | landley | You can't skip that and still talk to the bootloader. |
| 23:17.47 | landley | USB jtag lets you unbrick the board. |
| 23:17.49 | prpplague | ds2 indeed, thats what CosmicPenguin was getting at |
| 23:17.52 | landley | Can't skip that and still unbrick the board. |
| 23:18.12 | ds2 | prpplague: wonder it is worthwhile to donate one to the USB coders and get some press coverage out of it |
| 23:18.15 | landley | Arbitrary USB gadget lets people do anything else they like. |
| 23:18.29 | prpplague | landley exactly |
| 23:18.32 | landley | So each of the three devices has a good _reason_. |
| 23:18.39 | prpplague | ds2 i'd love to donate one |
| 23:18.43 | prpplague | landley yep |
| 23:18.46 | landley | Keep in mind I view complexity as a cost. |
| 23:19.04 | prpplague | landley indeed, it would take a little explaining |
| 23:19.05 | landley | It's not bad spending that cost as long as you get a good return. |
| 23:19.12 | landley | Arbitrary complexity for its own sake turns me way the heck off. |
| 23:19.13 | prpplague | landley yep |
| 23:19.28 | prpplague | landley oh i definetly agree |
| 23:20.20 | prpplague | landley another nice effect of the configuration is that if you want to sniff usb devices you can plug the device into the nail boards host port, then capture packets while sending the to the host pc unaltered via the usb gadget driver |
| 23:20.37 | landley | My laundry's done, time for me to head out soon. |
| 23:20.42 | prpplague | landley np |
| 23:20.44 | landley | prpplague: that is indeed cool. |
| 23:20.51 | landley | And it would need documentation. |
| 23:21.04 | landley | I have an urge to write documentation for this thing, but I still haven't reflashed my existing hammer board with my own kernel. |
| 23:21.09 | landley | (The Holidays came up.) |
| 23:22.09 | prpplague | landley np, i know how it is |
| 23:22.15 | ds2 | prpplague: you got code to do that? ;) |
| 23:22.16 | prpplague | landley i'm still working on it myself |
| 23:22.23 | prpplague | ds2 yea some |
| 23:22.31 | ds2 | nice |
| 23:22.32 | prpplague | landley i spoke to boss about doing a lulu book |
| 23:22.46 | prpplague | landley he's game for a little $$ to get it rolling |
| 23:22.46 | ds2 | would make a nice little USB sniffer |
| 23:22.56 | landley | Coolness. |
| 23:23.00 | landley | I can contribute to said book. :) |
| 23:23.12 | ds2 | prpplague: what is the estimate price for hammer + nail? |
| 23:23.15 | landley | And said book should have "how to use it as a USB sniffer", certainly. |
| 23:23.28 | landley | "How to set up different USB gadgets" |
| 23:23.35 | landley | "How to build your own kernel" |
| 23:23.50 | landley | "How to install your own kernel." |
| 23:24.00 | landley | I actually have a bullet point list here somewhere, remind me to email it to you. |
| 23:24.32 | cajaka | "How to make your house a USB device"? |
| 23:24.39 | prpplague | landley good deal |
| 23:25.38 | ds2 | if the combine price is sub $400, it would give the low end dedicated sniffers a good run for the money |
| 23:25.57 | ds2 | esp. if the GPIOs are hacked to turn it into a full blown logic analyzer ;) |
| 23:26.10 | landley | Time to head out. Later... |
| 23:28.53 | prpplague | ds2 hammer would be $159 and the carrier board would be about $39 |
| 23:28.59 | ds2 | whoa |
| 23:29.10 | ds2 | nice... the cheapest USB analyzer I know of is $400 |
| 23:29.27 | prpplague | ds2 sorry the nail board would be like $59 |
| 23:29.42 | ds2 | still much cheaper |
| 23:29.49 | prpplague | ds2 i'd have to go over the number, maybe $49 |
| 23:31.15 | ds2 | prpplague: if you got the software (GPL?) to spit out PCAP files from the traces... |
| 23:31.54 | prpplague | i'm not familar with PCAP |
| 23:31.59 | prpplague | so i'm not sure |
| 23:34.30 | ds2 | libpcap I think does most of the work |
| 23:39.06 | *** join/#edev ico2__ (n=ico2@modem-1090.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
